Exploring an Andrew Bailey-for-Jesus Montero trade
1. Are the A's out of the AL West race?
2. Can prospect Chris Carter be an adequate major league left fielder defensively?
Your answers to those two questions have a huge impact upon how you'll feel about this trade idea.
The A's currently have about a 5% chance of making the playoffs, which answers the first question for me. The second question is much more murky, because the A's have played Carter almost exclusively at first base in Sacramento this year. But I'll be optimistic on that one, since Carter is a 23-year-old good athlete.
If you take the same stance on those two points as I do, you might be in favor of a trade built around these two major pieces: Andrew Bailey to the Yankees, and DH/1b prospect Jesus Montero to the A's.
If the Yankees offered Montero for Soria, as they are rumored to have, I see no reason why they wouldn't also offer him for Andrew Bailey, if Bailey can establish that he's healthy prior to the deadline. (He would have to pitch effectively in one of next two nights in order to do this).
I'm intrigued by the Yankees' interest in Soria. He and Bailey are similar in many ways.
Both are obviously elite young closers.
Both Soria and Bailey have 4 years of contractual control beyond this year. They also could be projected to make very similar amounts of money over the next four years, even though Soria has two more years of service time. This is because Soria is signed a very team-friendly expension in '08, and Bailey hasn't yet.
Let's compare salary pictures for the two elite closers:
Soria is making $3M this year in what would have been his first arby season; he's also committed for $4M in 2011. Then his contract has team options for 2012 at $6M, 2013 at $8M, and 2014 at $8. 75M.
Total contract cost of Soria for 2011-2014: $26.75M.
Now, Soria's salaries at each service-time landmark of his career don't work very well as estimates for Bailey. Soria signed his long-term extension in May of '08, prior to his two most recent very dominant seasons. That's why it's so team-friendly. In contrast, Jon Papelbon made $6.25M as an All-Star first-year arby eligible closer (3 years of service); Soria is making $1M this year with 3 years of service).
So we have to use Papelbon as comp when "2/3-time All-Star Andrew Bailey" goes to arbitration after 2011.
Thus, here's salary projections for Bailey, assuming no contract extension:
2011: $500K (slight raise).
2012: $6.25M (Bailey's first year of arby)
2013: $9.35M (I used Papelbon's salary in his second year of arbitration eligibility, too).
2014: $12.5M (Bailey's final year of arby).
Total estimated Bailey salary, 2011-2014: $28.6M.
Total exact Soria salary, 2011-2014: $26.75M.
These figures are close enough that we can basically call the salary difference between the two a wash, given that the Bailey figures are just projections. However, the slight edge might go to Soria in contract value just because teams team value cost certainty long-term when creating a budget.
For the Yankees, acquiring a young closer makes sense as a bridge to the end of the Mariano era. Rivera's 40 and he's talked of retirement when his contract expires after this year. Plus, Joba has struggled and no longer seems a worthy heir to the throne.
In the playoffs, the Yankees will essentially need only two good relievers. But they have a significant void behind Rivera, and Bailey can fill the 8th inning role now and the closer role when Rivera fades into the sunset.
For the A's, the appeal of Montero is obvious: He's a consensus top 10 minor-league prospect, and in my opinion, the last elite obtainable minor-league hitter*. We know he's obtainable because he's been offered in three other deals (Soria, Lee, Halladay). But despite his defensive warts, he's really special. At 20 years old, he's the second-youngest hitter in the pitcher-friendly International League, and yet he's put up a .274/.349/.459 (.808) line.
Acquiring Montero makes much more sense, however, if Carter can stick in left field. If he can, here's your lineup in 3 years (in my opinion, this is when the A's are a playoff team again, in 2013-2014:
C: Suzuki/Donaldson
1b: Barton
2b: Weeks/Rosales
SS: Pennington/Green
3b: Cardenas/Rosales
LF: Carter
CF: Choice
RF: Taylor
DH: Montero
The outfield defense won't be "plus" by any means, but I don't think it will be as bad as some might think. We're talking about three very good athletes in their mid-20s. They aren't statues. If they take pride in what they're doing out there and put in the work, they can be true talent -5's at their respective positions. And the infield and catching defense is still very good in that group. And man, could that team hit (finally!). And the entire offense would be making less than $15M million, which is good, because our young starting pitchers will be getting expensive by then.
Look how right-handed that lineup is. All the more reason to keep Barton, and to hope that Cardenas can pan out.
*I've scoured every prospect list. The theme you see is that a lot of great young hitting prospects have been promoted this year (Santana, Posey, etc.), and there's a vacuum of good hitting prospects at the high levels of MiLB right now. BA's Mid-Season Top 25 list included about 20 pitchers. The teams that are fortunate to have 1-2 elite hitting prospects are seemingly all non-contenders, or perpetually low-budget teams that wouldn't realistically give up that elite hitting prospect in a win-now move. The only guy who fits is Montero, thanks to his parent club's huge resources and willingness to move him.
So...would you do the trade? Please vote in the poll and discuss below.
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I believe that the deal sounds good on both sides
a young, cost controlled, elite closer is valuable in the MLB, and the Yankees especially seem to value their closer, seeing how attached they have been to Rivera.
If the Yankees are willing to deal Montero for such a closer (Soria) then I see no reason why they should regret their decision, and I think the A’s, with our record of pumping out bullpen arms and closers, should do the deal as well, and try Wuertz or Breslow as our de-facto Closer till a new one is spawned (or Joey Devine is healthy again…)
The A’s NEED offense, and they can’t produce it on their own. Meanwhile, the Yankees are not paying a fortune for a 1.5 year closer, but a 4 year, young closer whom they can keep after his service time is up if they like and still have him in his good years.
I say get it done, Billy.
*WARNING!* Playing online multiplayer games may change your: Religion, Sexual Orientation, Race and/or Gender for undetermined periods of time.
I don't see why they Yankees would value Bailey anywhere near Soria, and I was also
surprised that they’d trade Montero for Soria. I’m still not sure it’s true.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 8:22 AM PDT up reply actions
i mean Montero is about equal value with Bailey
and they could very well be souring on him as a catcher.
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 28, 2010 8:24 AM PDT up reply actions
I can see their trading Montero, just not for a relief pitcher....and just because they'd
do it for an exceptional reliever like Soria, doesn’t mean they’d do it for an average closer like Bailey.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 8:27 AM PDT up reply actions
Average closer?
I’ll assume you meant to type 2 time All-star closer.
yeah thats an especially egregious claim when you consider he was a every team must have a rep guy one year and a replacement every team must have a rep guy but the original was ineligible guy this year.
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 28, 2010 10:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Bailey
If he were closing for the Yankees or RedSox the last 2 years, he’d be an All-Star too.
by Colorado Fan on Jul 29, 2010 7:31 AM PDT up reply actions
he wouldn't have been closing with Rivera or Papelbon (or Bard for that matter)
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 29, 2010 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions
He'd be an Allstar with the Spanks or RedSox with the stats he's had with the A's
by Colorado Fan on Jul 29, 2010 4:00 PM PDT up reply actions
yeah thats just not accurate.
set up guys are almost never all stars
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 29, 2010 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions
hes not better than Rivera or Papelbon
he might not even be better than Bard
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 29, 2010 4:13 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm inclined to tell you to go climb a rock.....
but I won’t…….
"By the end of the year, I'll have Dallas throwing right-handed'' -Ben Sheets
This is a very fair deal and well worked out
Montero is worth about $25m in value according to Victor Wang’s research. Baily will be worth about 7 wins while he is still under control. Which is about $28m. Baily will probably make up the difference in salary lowing his total value.
Id make the trade in a heartbeat.
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 28, 2010 8:01 AM PDT reply actions
I don't buy this 1 WAR = $4M rule of thumb. It may be how things are done, but it's not a linear
relationship in my view. I see no evidence that there’s much of a difference between 65 wins and 75 wins on revenues, and I see a lot of difference between 80 wins and 90 wins on revenues. I’d much rather look at Wins over Average, since that’s more reflective of how wins impact revenues (I’m told “impact” is a verb now). So Bailey’s 2 WAR per year might be worth $28M in the $4M/WAR world, but it would be worth a lot less in the $7M/WAA world or whatever the number is.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 8:27 AM PDT up reply actions
if you don't like the linear wins thats a better reason for the yankees to do it.
A marginal win now is worth far more than $4 since just getting to the playoffs is worth ~$40m and the deeper you go the more money you make
where as Montero’s wins are in the future, discounted, and likely to be less of a upgrade over using a rotating Jeter/Posada/ARod as a DH
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 28, 2010 8:30 AM PDT up reply actions
Montero's value to them isn't as a future DH, it'
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 8:30 AM PDT up reply actions
it's as a piece to acquire a premium talent like Cliff Lee. They still need a top starter,
even if they sign Lee in the offseason.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 8:31 AM PDT up reply actions
Well, unless Zack Grienke hits the trade market, none of those exist.
There are no elite SPs due to hit free agency after 2011 – Verlander, King Felix, Josh Johnson, and a few other notables all signed extensions.
The only elite offensive FA talent in next year’s class is at first base, with Fielder, Pujols, and Adrian Gonzalez. None of them want to DH, so the Yanks aren’t in on any of them.
So, “future elite trade targets” for the Yanks, once we pass this year’s deadline, are guys that have two years of service left after this one, so in other words, Grienke and Grady Sizemore. And if Sizemore is traded, he becomes a free agent after 2011 instead.
Neither Sizemore or Grienke are on the block, either, so it seems like it’s too far away for the Yanks to simply keep Montero mothballed in hopes that he yields an elite player via trade 1-3 years from now.
I am virtually certain that the Yanks sign Cliff Lee, and Pettitte was pitching so well that it’s conceivable he comes back as their fifth man next year.
"It’s ideal if your hobby and your living can merge. But you are not going to stop your hobby if you can’t make money out of it. Your hobby is all about trading time for enjoyment. My job is what I do. My hobby is who I am." -Tango
by notsellingjeans on Jul 28, 2010 10:37 PM PDT up reply actions
i love bailey
he’s got great enthusiasm and seems like a stand up guy….but where do i sign?
bats, bats, bats. Billy Bean needs some wonderful toys.

It's just more exciting with Billy Beane running the team.
e
"The only way I'm going to get a Gold Glove is with a can of spray paint." - Reggie Jackson
by the_rozeboom on Jul 28, 2010 12:16 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes.
Heck, give them Bailey + Breslow or Wuertz or a mid level prospect.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
Heck give them Bailey, Wuertz and Carter
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 8:19 AM PDT up reply actions
hyperbole alert
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 28, 2010 8:23 AM PDT up reply actions
What's the most you'd give up for Montero?
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 8:54 AM PDT up reply actions
Carter and Wuertz?
Gio?
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 28, 2010 9:35 AM PDT up reply actions
I wouldn't trade Gio straight up for Montero.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jul 28, 2010 9:36 AM PDT up reply actions
Really?
I’d always trade a pitcher for a position player. I remember when people wondered whether they’d trade Harden for Teixeira in 2003. I’d do that then, and I’d do this now. For that matter I’d trade Anderson for Montero.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 9:39 AM PDT up reply actions
Anderson is a different case because of the injury
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 28, 2010 9:46 AM PDT up reply actions
Stupid injury
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 9:48 AM PDT up reply actions
Plus your namesake
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 10:09 AM PDT up reply actions
I like the name Buck Jackson
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 10:12 AM PDT up reply actions
You can't even get yourself
to visit your own website?
(I kid)
by el generico on Jul 28, 2010 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Gio is probably too much. The xFIP and walks worry me though.
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 28, 2010 9:39 AM PDT up reply actions
I value his upside.
More importantly though, I think his ability to stay healthy is very critical on a staff full of pitchers with health concerns.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jul 28, 2010 9:42 AM PDT up reply actions
What's Gio's upside? Isn't he always going to be basically average?
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 9:44 AM PDT up reply actions
He's pitching at a borderline number 2 starter level at age 24.
I wouldn’t bet against him.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jul 28, 2010 9:51 AM PDT up reply actions
Gio can walk people…. He doesn’t get hit hard very much.
by Colorado Fan on Jul 28, 2010 11:13 AM PDT up reply actions
but his xFIP isn't that
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 28, 2010 9:57 AM PDT up reply actions
I see Gio as a present and future #3.
Some awesome starts, some godawful starts, and a lot of good starts that are less than his physical ability but better than you get from a lot of SPs. That’s a #3. Consistently inconsistent and very worthwhile, but aggravatingly not better. That’s Gio.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
stop talking about Barry Zito
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 28, 2010 10:02 AM PDT up reply actions
Sorry.
{hangs head}
{hangs curve}
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I think only Zito's first year is comparable to what Gio will likely do going forward.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jul 28, 2010 10:09 AM PDT up reply actions
He's going to have a 173 ERA+ and win a playoff game
against a future HOF, who might not get in because of PEDs?
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions
He'll have a 7.58 K/9 and a 4.37 BB/9.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jul 28, 2010 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions
That's a mighty precise prediction
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 10:27 AM PDT up reply actions
I see a lot of Scott Kazmir in Gio.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Hey....
Bobby Keilty went to Boston in 07. Wins a World Series.
Jermaine Dye went to Chicago in 05. Wins a WS
Nick Swisher went to the yanks in 09. Wins a WS.
That sucks
Bobby Crosby went to Pittsburgh in '10
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 10:17 AM PDT up reply actions
Tampa Bay Kazmir becoming LA Kazmir
after a few years. Probably not with the A’s though.
""Imagine if you go there to see Miss Universe and you end up having Miss Iowa..." - Miguel Batista
The Angels
I wish that their trades would fail for once. Still, maybe losing Lackey&Guerro backfired
Rodriguez for Kazmir isn't looking too good
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 10:29 AM PDT up reply actions
Signing all those relievers really has hurt them
LOL Fuentes and Rodney and Shields.
""Imagine if you go there to see Miss Universe and you end up having Miss Iowa..." - Miguel Batista
Not me, Gio's got health and no control but above average stuff
Kazmir had great stuff, decent control and no health
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 10:17 AM PDT up reply actions
Kazmir was hurt with the Rays as well
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 10:19 AM PDT up reply actions
Workload was the problem there, I think
He threw 144 IP as a 22-year old, then 206 as a 23-year-old. He’s never been the same since. Gio wasn’t good or consistent enough at an early age to rack up those kinds of numbers, so his arm wasn’t as abused.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
I have a hard time seeing it.
Kazmir has either been too good or too shitty (though to be fair, the shittiness has been mostly confined to this season) to be compared to Gio.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jul 28, 2010 10:32 AM PDT up reply actions
In Kazmir's prime?
I mean, of course now. But in his prime, he was awesome.
""Imagine if you go there to see Miss Universe and you end up having Miss Iowa..." - Miguel Batista
THIS
And Kazmir was better than Gio when he could actually throw a good game
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!
by cuppingmaster on Jul 28, 2010 1:27 PM PDT up reply actions
The A's shouldn't be worrying about Gio being Kazmir
They should worry about Anderson being Kazmir.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
That's what I meant
It should worry them that he could be another very talented LH who pitches a lot of innings in the majors in his early 20s and ends up breaking down and losing his effectiveness.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
right, the walks are still too high
"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagine such events unfolding!" Bill King
by Buck Turgidson on Jul 28, 2010 10:00 AM PDT up reply actions
I would wait a season or two before evaluating him on xFIP.
Last year, his xFIP was actually lower than this year’s even though he was clearly worse. It was heavily influenced by how many batters he struck out last year but the reason why his K rate was so high was because he was facing so many batters per inning.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jul 28, 2010 10:01 AM PDT up reply actions
Being second in the league in walks
is great when you’re Daric Barton and not as good when you’re Gio Gonzalez.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
If he drops .5 BB/9, he'll be a solid number 2 starter.
He’s already improved by nearly 1 BB/9 since last season.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jul 28, 2010 10:05 AM PDT up reply actions
True, true
But to be fair, CC Sabathia is #4, Ricky Romero is #5, and David Price is #6.
So a bunch of studly ace types.
""Imagine if you go there to see Miss Universe and you end up having Miss Iowa..." - Miguel Batista
Why does it seem like lefties are worse at throwing strikes than righties?
Is it just harder to repeat pitching mechanics that are probably designed with righties in mind? Or is it just harder for umpires to call the game accurately for lefties?
Throwing out this question for anyone…
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jul 28, 2010 10:36 AM PDT up reply actions
Lefties are weird
Strike zones are probably different on the planet they’re we’re from.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
because lefties in general are worse pitchers than righties
Scarcity.
The threshold to reach the majors as a lefty is significantly lower than it is as a righty.
"It’s ideal if your hobby and your living can merge. But you are not going to stop your hobby if you can’t make money out of it. Your hobby is all about trading time for enjoyment. My job is what I do. My hobby is who I am." -Tango
by notsellingjeans on Jul 28, 2010 10:44 PM PDT up reply actions
{Flagged for "personally insulting" lefties, ergo me}
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
And even still, I'd gladly take a 4.34 slightly better than league average xFIP from a 24 year old with a good chance of improvement.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jul 28, 2010 10:03 AM PDT up reply actions
if he drops his BB/9 to league average hes #1 starter.
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 28, 2010 10:02 AM PDT up reply actions
It's going the right direction.
""Imagine if you go there to see Miss Universe and you end up having Miss Iowa..." - Miguel Batista
Yeah, pitcher health is HUGE
with the ridiculous rates of injury turnover with young pitchers (not just on the A’s), Gio’s got a ton of value.
""Imagine if you go there to see Miss Universe and you end up having Miss Iowa..." - Miguel Batista
this is a good point
but pitcher health is also variable. Its great until it isn’t.
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 28, 2010 9:46 AM PDT up reply actions
but the biggest predictor of future injuries
is past pitching injuries.
""Imagine if you go there to see Miss Universe and you end up having Miss Iowa..." - Miguel Batista
Or just past pitching
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 9:47 AM PDT up reply actions
Fair.
If Gio suffered a serious arm injury tomorrow, I’d obviously view him differently. But to date, he’s the only member on the staff (you could also probably count Cahill) who hasn’t had a major pitching injury.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jul 28, 2010 9:54 AM PDT up reply actions
Clay Mortensen!!!!!
Oh you meant pitchers we care about?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Wrong.
He’s probably starting on at least 20-25 teams.
""Imagine if you go there to see Miss Universe and you end up having Miss Iowa..." - Miguel Batista
Then we should trade him to one of those
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 10:09 AM PDT up reply actions
To trade him for Holyfield Elephant?
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions
Even Cahill was on the DL in April.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Id trade Gio for 2 months of Werth & 2 draft picks.
We really have to kickstart the farm again.
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
I don't think they're in rebuilding mode yet. They could actually sign Werth long term
if they thought he was good.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 9:47 AM PDT up reply actions
Oh god no
There’s a lot of reasons why that’s epically dumb. Even if the A’s were within 3 games, I’d still say no.
And, Werth is a little old to sign to a huge deal. If he comes at under 50MM, the A’s should sign him though.
""Imagine if you go there to see Miss Universe and you end up having Miss Iowa..." - Miguel Batista
Unless it's for 1 year
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 10:11 AM PDT up reply actions
Of course, of course
Low year, high dollar? Sign me up.
""Imagine if you go there to see Miss Universe and you end up having Miss Iowa..." - Miguel Batista
Of course you would.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jul 28, 2010 9:51 AM PDT up reply actions
PL78 is applying for the Drayton Moore school of General Managing
with such classes as:
How to destroy a team 1 Yunieski Bentacourt at a time
and
Jose Guillen is the missing piece!
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 28, 2010 10:00 AM PDT up reply actions
Moore's done a great job with the farm system.
Moustakas, Hosmer, Montgomery….they’re gonna be pretty good soon. He may not be the right guy to get them over the top though.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 10:10 AM PDT up reply actions
Those guys were all very early picks.
Its not hard to acquire talent when you get a chance to draft those guys early on.
I think it’s better to judge how well a team develops a farm system by how much late round value/talent they consistently find. Teams like the Rangers and Rays have been very good at this.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jul 28, 2010 10:19 AM PDT up reply actions
Really? Rangers made the trade with the Braves and the Rays
have had a lot of early picks too. I’d nominate the Red Sox if you want someone who hasn’t had a lot of early picks and still has a good system.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions
Yes, I would count the Red Sox.
As for the Rays, they had a top 5 system coming into the this season and only 2 of their top 10 prospects (using Sickels’s list) were 1st or 2nd round picks. There’s also 2 IFA on that list but the rest are 3rd round or higher picks. And quite of their prospects have broken out this season so their farm may be looking even better.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jul 28, 2010 10:31 AM PDT up reply actions
OK but Upton and Longoria were high picks
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 10:35 AM PDT up reply actions
Mike Montgomery was a supp pick
The Royals get a lot of credit for him
Moore can scout
He just has no idea how to make a competent trade or FA signing.
""Imagine if you go there to see Miss Universe and you end up having Miss Iowa..." - Miguel Batista
Sort of like Chuck LaMar
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 10:28 AM PDT up reply actions
that type of skillset really shouldn't be getting GM jobs anymore.
Scouts should be scouts, and they should report to people who understand player valuation (i.e., business-savvy Friedman types).
"It’s ideal if your hobby and your living can merge. But you are not going to stop your hobby if you can’t make money out of it. Your hobby is all about trading time for enjoyment. My job is what I do. My hobby is who I am." -Tango
by notsellingjeans on Jul 28, 2010 10:47 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't get this
if he can scout then why cant he scout major leaguers?
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 28, 2010 11:28 PM PDT up reply actions
he can scout them
he just has no clue what they are worth, relative to other players.
"It’s ideal if your hobby and your living can merge. But you are not going to stop your hobby if you can’t make money out of it. Your hobby is all about trading time for enjoyment. My job is what I do. My hobby is who I am." -Tango
by notsellingjeans on Jul 28, 2010 11:49 PM PDT up reply actions
Remember when the Royals were gonna be pretty good soon
with Greinke, Gordon, and Butler? I see no reason why even if some Royals prospects pan out, Dayton Moore can’t screw it up. And prospects don’t always pan out.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
it will this year
plus draft picks
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
What will it help, exactly?
Even if the Rangers play .500 the rest of the way, we’d have to go like 43-14 or something ridiculous to win the division.
Pam liked my old sig better.
And then what?
We’re already on the bubble of contention, which should be here in the next one or two years. And then what? That trade would just delay that contention run.
Gio is worth more than two draft picks
Especially if it is a 2nd and a supp
This could be (and probably is) pretty biased and subjective
But I think our farm is actually in pretty good shape…at least to the point of not needing to “kickstart” it again. Our system has sort of done a 180 in that we have a lot of promising position player prospects (thank god) and less quality pitching prospects than we’re used to.
Intriguing position players (in no particular order)…
Chris Carter
Michael Taylor
Josh Donaldson
Adrian Cardenas
Jemile Weeks
Corey Brown
Grant Green
Max Stassi
Stephen Parker
Ryan Ortiz
Michael Spina
Tony Thompson
AJ Kirby-Jones
Intriguing pitchers (in no particular order)…
Ian Krol
Justin Marks
Fautino De Los Santos
Anthony Capra
Tyson Ross
Clay Mortensen
This doesn’t even include our top 4 picks from this years draft (Michael Choice, Yordy Cabrera, Aaron Shipman, and Chad Lewis), but all four are expected to sign and will only add to the depth of promising position players.
If Grant Green keeps hitting like he has been of late, anyone think he has a chance to crack the top 20 prospects in MiLB?
by bakerbeachboy on Jul 28, 2010 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, but it has more to do with positionality
If Grant Green keeps hitting like he has been of late, anyone think he has a chance to crack the top 20 prospects in MiLB?
than his being a pure hitter.
With the exception of Manny Machado, who hasn’t signed yet, Green is arguably the best SS prospect in MLB, or top 2 with Dee Gordon being the other one. And, the state of MLB shortstops is umm…bad. Really bad.
Since Hanley and Tulo ain’t going nowhere, Alcides Escobar is struggling, and the two best SS in the AL are Alexei Ramirez and Cliff Pennington.
""Imagine if you go there to see Miss Universe and you end up having Miss Iowa..." - Miguel Batista
That point you make is why I was amazed that Green fell to A's at 13th overall last year
Even with the question marks.
The position is so scarce league-wide…if a shortstop prospect even remotely pans out, he’s a good trade asset.
"It’s ideal if your hobby and your living can merge. But you are not going to stop your hobby if you can’t make money out of it. Your hobby is all about trading time for enjoyment. My job is what I do. My hobby is who I am." -Tango
by notsellingjeans on Jul 28, 2010 10:53 PM PDT up reply actions
not true
we probably have the worst farm system in the division.
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 29, 2010 12:12 AM PDT up reply actions
Not Really
We have won 3 Rookie of the year awards this decade.
The whole team is built around young strength.
Gio and Cahill come from a horrible farm system?
Past graduates have no bearing in the current system's strength
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
I think he means at this very moment,
our system is kinda weak.
Keep in mind, of course, that "the best defense of Derek Jeter's life" ranks somewhere in between "the best fiscal responsibility of Mike Tyson's life" and "the best not-getting-assassinated-ness of James Garfield's life." -FJM
We have the most shitty outfielders on a MLB roster in the bigs.
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 29, 2010 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Weeks is not a good prospect
Carter and Green are the best of those and neither can field
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 29, 2010 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions
Please see the list of irrelevant things below
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 29, 2010 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions
no.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jul 28, 2010 8:26 AM PDT up reply actions
Please
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 8:28 AM PDT up reply actions
One thing I don't understand
Why did Seattle and the Snakes pass on Montero? Is it that he projects to have no position? I thought the common idea was that he could play 1b, and his bat is far superior to Smoak, so what gives?
I’m on board with this but I think Montero is not really available. And what if Carter can’t play LF? (which it appears has already been determined by the A’s)
"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagine such events unfolding!" Bill King
I don't know that his bat is "far superior" to Smoak unless you really believe that Smoak is Mark Grace and not Mark Teixeira
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 8:19 AM PDT up reply actions
Well that's what I think about Smoak, he's Mark Grace
Montero is 20 and he is a true masher. He may be experiencing an adjustment period in AAA but the power is already developed and his strike zone control is solid.
"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagine such events unfolding!" Bill King
by Buck Turgidson on Jul 28, 2010 8:29 AM PDT up reply actions
Smoak is not Mark Teixeira
And the M’s would be thrilled if he became Mark Grace
That's why I don't get the trade
if, that is Montero was available
"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagine such events unfolding!" Bill King
by Buck Turgidson on Jul 28, 2010 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions
No way
Montero can hit but is a DH in waiting. His defense skills are below par anywhere you put him. You might as well put Grant Green at DH. The second point is yank prospects are almost always over rated.
I don't think Robinson Cano or Brett Gardner were overrated. Other than Drew Henson who was
rated highly and was really crappy? Every team has someone like that.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 8:21 AM PDT up reply actions
Melky Cabrera and Joba would be a good example though (though they are both legit MLBers)
It really happens more with Mets specs.
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 28, 2010 8:26 AM PDT up reply actions
I don't think either was ever thought to be better than they turned out to be.
Joba’s not a starter, not because he’s not good enough, but rather because he’s somewhat brittle. That can happen with any pitcher. Hughes is also every bit as good as advertised.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 8:30 AM PDT up reply actions
Hughes is falling apart as we speak
Dude, are you a Yankee fan?
"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagine such events unfolding!" Bill King
by Buck Turgidson on Jul 28, 2010 8:32 AM PDT up reply actions
He is?
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 8:33 AM PDT up reply actions
Yes, he is
"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagine such events unfolding!" Bill King
by Buck Turgidson on Jul 28, 2010 8:35 AM PDT up reply actions
How so?
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 8:36 AM PDT up reply actions
dude, are you a Yankee fan?
"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagine such events unfolding!" Bill King
by Buck Turgidson on Jul 28, 2010 8:38 AM PDT up reply actions
Sure, why not
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 8:39 AM PDT up reply actions
Hughes k-rates are tailing off in a big way
His xfip now over 4 and he’s in unknow territory regarding his big league IP’s. I think there’s a book on him now and his stuff just isn’t that dirty.
OK, falling apart may be too harsh, but he’s not nearly as effective as he was a month ago.
"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagine such events unfolding!" Bill King
by Buck Turgidson on Jul 28, 2010 8:46 AM PDT up reply actions
So he's fallen off from an All-Star to an average starter?
OK. You had me thinking he was injured or something.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 8:50 AM PDT up reply actions
Man you really are a Yankee fan if you think of Phil Hughes as an all-star
You from New York?
"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagine such events unfolding!" Bill King
by Buck Turgidson on Jul 28, 2010 8:52 AM PDT up reply actions
Well he was an All-Star. I saw the game.
I’m from St Louis
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 8:53 AM PDT up reply actions
dude youre being a dick
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 28, 2010 8:54 AM PDT up reply actions
Sorry
"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagine such events unfolding!" Bill King
by Buck Turgidson on Jul 28, 2010 8:55 AM PDT up reply actions
It's OK. My feelings weren't hurt.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 9:04 AM PDT up reply actions
Wasn't trying to
But sometimes it comes out that way
"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagine such events unfolding!" Bill King
by Buck Turgidson on Jul 28, 2010 9:28 AM PDT up reply actions
I would enjoy it if Hughes was...
…a member of the Athletics staff. I am not from New York. I am not doing drugs, either. [/just getting out in front of your ridiculous insinuations]
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 28, 2010 8:56 AM PDT up reply actions
Hughes is not an ace, I agree with this
He’s not one of the best pitchers in the game. He does get lots of hype because he’s on the Yankees. But he’s still a really good pitcher, and an above average starter controlled for a long time (since team control matters to the 29 non-Yankees teams).
And, he gives up a lot of home runs (but then, that ballpark is a joke).
In terms of unknown territory with big league IPs, I’ve seen much, much more egregious stuff in terms of “uncharted territory and innings”. At least Hughes was in MLB last year before getting his innings jumped.
""Imagine if you go there to see Miss Universe and you end up having Miss Iowa..." - Miguel Batista
non-dickish
"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagine such events unfolding!" Bill King
by Buck Turgidson on Jul 28, 2010 8:55 AM PDT up reply actions
just a couple
Who was that can’t miss thirdbaseman? Who was that top starter? Montero can hit and will hit at the major leagues but he is just terrible on defense. When the Yanks put a player like him as trade bait makes you wonder why?
Yeah, well there's now evidence that they have been seriously offering that kid up
"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagine such events unfolding!" Bill King
by Buck Turgidson on Jul 28, 2010 8:47 AM PDT up reply actions
syntax error
NO evidence
"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagine such events unfolding!" Bill King
by Buck Turgidson on Jul 28, 2010 8:51 AM PDT up reply actions
yeah, agreed
Only for really elite guys (e.g. Cliff Lee, Roy Halladay), or guys who’ve got years of control till FA (e.g. Joakim Soria) and fills immediate needs.
""Imagine if you go there to see Miss Universe and you end up having Miss Iowa..." - Miguel Batista
"You might as well put Grant Green at DH"
I have no idea how this relates to Montero.
"It’s ideal if your hobby and your living can merge. But you are not going to stop your hobby if you can’t make money out of it. Your hobby is all about trading time for enjoyment. My job is what I do. My hobby is who I am." -Tango
by notsellingjeans on Jul 28, 2010 10:54 PM PDT up reply actions
This opens up Montero to play SS
and make a cool DP combo with Landon Powell.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 29, 2010 8:06 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Dirty jokes are best saved for more chatty fanposts
like game threads or DLDs. If it is particularly clever, a joke is welcome anywhere, but the “DP” joke has been done so many times that no one even remembers if it was funny the first time.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
I Say No
Bailey is a Rookie of the Year, and 2-time All-Star. Montero is an “awesome” prospect, Bailey is a good player.
It would suck if we got rid of Bailey and then had Montero skipping in and out of the minors ‘cause he doesn’t do anything
Not disagreeing with you
But I think that’s where our “leverage” would come into play…or any team’s for that matter when trading a proven MLB player for a prospect (and in Montero’s case, a top prospect in all of MiLB). There’s always a risk that the prospect won’t pan out.
by bakerbeachboy on Jul 28, 2010 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions
You're neglecting two things.
1. Relievers are, by-in-large, volatile from year to year. Bailey has been good for the A’s, but he’s regressed substantially this year, and the health issue certainly doesn’t help matters. Also, using his status as an All-Star is poppycock, as he’s essentially been elected both times specifically because the A’s needed a rep, not because his performance merited it.
2. Offensively, the A’s are collectively, risible. The A’s need offense, badly, both short, and long term, and you’re worried about trading one reliever? The trade makes sense for the A’s.
by MrMoneyBaller on Jul 30, 2010 1:09 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
By the way that team listed in the post is a pretty horrendous defensive one. It's more like
C – Suzuki (Donaldson sucks)
1B – Barton/Carter
2B – Weeks/Pennington
SS – Pennington/Green
3B – Green/?
LF – Taylor
CF – ?
RF – Choice
DH – Carter/Montero
You’d eventually have to trade the worst of Carter or Montero or Barton for a real CF.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
Choice hasn't even SIGNED yet.
He really shouldn’t be on any lists until he plays a game of pro ball — or even becomes part of the A’s organization.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
what about GradeA?
"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagine such events unfolding!" Bill King
by Buck Turgidson on Jul 28, 2010 8:58 AM PDT up reply actions
Hey I was just tweaking the team as posted, and I don't even think that much of him,
but why wait till he signs, if he’s already been drafted and there’s no reason to think he won’t sign.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 9:00 AM PDT up reply actions
Sure enough
As soon as you say that, he signs.
$2 million bonus according to Baseball America
Well now it's totally fine, obviously!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Alright, NOW he can be on the list.
"Life is a horizontal fall" -Jean Cocteau
by King Richard on Jul 28, 2010 11:46 AM PDT up reply actions
OK fine: Duke for closer!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Tom Doniphon would be a good closer, but I'm not sure about Ethan Edwards
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 9:23 AM PDT up reply actions
Excellent post NSJ.
Your salary predictions for Bailey might be high. It’s fair to make those estimates though. Arb evaluators look at stupid stuff, like saves. Papelbon’s value was clearly inflated by playing on a team like the Red Sux.
But yeah, this is totally something I want to see happen.
""Imagine if you go there to see Miss Universe and you end up having Miss Iowa..." - Miguel Batista
What's the most you'd give up for Montero?
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 8:54 AM PDT up reply actions
I'd do Bailey +
the Yanks’ choice of either any other reliever in the A’s pen OR an A’s mid-level prospect (in other words, nobody who’d make a top 100 prospect list, rated around the B- level). I think its perfectly fine for an org with the depth of the A’s to trade mid-level guys for arguably the best pure hitting prospect in the game, who’s way young for AAA, and has massive upside.
Soria is a better pitcher than Bailey, although Bailey will probably end up being monetarily cheaper than Soria, especially if the Yanks trade for him now and he goes through arb as a set-up man. Still, Soria’s worth more than Bailey, but not by much (although the Yankees don’t care about a few mil).
Bailey’s going to have to pitch 80+ innings/season to be worth the 2.4 WAR he was worth last season. Pretty much all non-Mariano/Wagner closers are. With most closers and relievers in general, that just doesn’t happen. It did because of how young the A’s rotation was last year, and how much less value Bailey has as opposed to GMAC in the rotation.
""Imagine if you go there to see Miss Universe and you end up having Miss Iowa..." - Miguel Batista
So Bailey and Wuertz or Breslow?
I don’t think they’d be interested in a B prospect like Weeks or Cardenas
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 9:29 AM PDT up reply actions
I'd do that without blinking an eye.
I’d do stuff that didn’t involve Bailey, depending on what it was, but if Bailey’s the centerpiece, I’d do that.
""Imagine if you go there to see Miss Universe and you end up having Miss Iowa..." - Miguel Batista
I would too, but I don't think the Yankees would trade Montero for anything less
than the next Cliff Lee
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 9:37 AM PDT up reply actions
Why'd you give up Montero when
you’re going to give him a 200MM contract in 1/2 season anyway.
""Imagine if you go there to see Miss Universe and you end up having Miss Iowa..." - Miguel Batista
this is why I don't believe Montero is really even available
I think these rumors about Lee, Haren and now Soria are bs
"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagine such events unfolding!" Bill King
by Buck Turgidson on Jul 28, 2010 9:50 AM PDT up reply actions
Because you want to win the 2010 World Series and Lee's a lot better
than AJ Burnett….or even an exhausted Hughes. It would really suck to lose to the Rangers in the playoffs because Lee threw two shutouts against you.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 9:52 AM PDT up reply actions
No! It would be great!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Well yes, for the Rangers
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 9:57 AM PDT up reply actions
And for those who despise the Yankees
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
That's a lot of people
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 10:03 AM PDT up reply actions
Yes, I think the Athletics are OUT of the AL West race
Here’s why I think that.
The Rangers are playing .590 ball. And they’ve gotten better and may even get another piece by the deadline. They are on pace for 96 wins. In order for the Athletics to match that win total — assuming that the Rangers can keep up the pace with presumably an improved team — the Athletics would have to go 46-17 to match the Rangers assumed and forecasted pace. That’s a .730 win percentage going forward! Can it be done? Yes, but it ain’t very likely.
Ya hoping they play .500 ball isn't a realistic assumption. I'd assume something like .550 ball.
Obviously if they play .590 ball no one’s catching them.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 8:53 AM PDT up reply actions
Actually, hoping they play .500 ball is totally reasonable
Over a two-month stretch that’s easy to see if they “slump” or “fade” — heck, they’ve pretty much played .500 ball in July.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Oh sure it's possible -- the Dodgers played .500 ball when the Giants caught them in 1951
I just wouldn’t base my rest-of-year strategy on it
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 9:01 AM PDT up reply actions
To me, what it will take for the A's to contend
is for Texas to have a short stretch of tanking — say, losing 10 of 12. And while it’s totally unreasonable to hope they play .167 ball for the rest of the season, it’s totally reasonable to think they could play .167 ball for 2 weeks. Combine that with a regression, playing a decently tough schedule, to .530 ball around that, and you have a .500 record.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Yes, but does that mean you wouldn't trade to benefit the 2011 team at the expense of the 2010 team?
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 9:07 AM PDT up reply actions
No, I would.
I don’t personally believe the 2010 A’s are contenders, not with that pathetic OF. But that has nothing to do with whether I think Texas could play .500 ball the rest of the way. I think they could. And if they do, I think the Angels are more likely to catch them than the A’s are.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I see us finishing ahead of the Angels. They just don't impress me, although
I really like Scioscia as a manager.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 9:17 AM PDT up reply actions
I agree on all three points.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
You are optimistic!
But the addition of Lee has made pitching matchups much more favorable than they ever were. I just don’t see how the Rangers will slump as badly as you suggest can happen. Anything is possible but the rose tinting on those glasses is extremely rare.
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 28, 2010 9:11 AM PDT up reply actions
It has nothing to do with the A's.
I think if Colby Lewis and CJ Wilson slump big-time and they have one key injury — maybe it’s Hamilton or Cruz (both oft injured) or Vlad (old), they could play .500 ball in August/Sept.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
This is possible, and could happen to any team -- see the Red Sox early.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 9:17 AM PDT up reply actions
But even if all that happens and the Rangers end up playing .500 ball, the A's still have to go 40-14 to catch up to them
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jul 28, 2010 9:24 AM PDT up reply actions
This could happen. There's a chance they win each game they play
They just have to do it 40 times
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 9:26 AM PDT up reply actions
If the Rangers go .500 for the remainder of season
they’ll end up with 90 wins, 72 losses, and a .555 winning percentage.
The Athletics, to tie them with 90 wins, needs to go 40-23. That’s still a .635 win percentage.
I’m afraid that the AL West is already signed and sealed. Delivery is coming!
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 28, 2010 9:26 AM PDT up reply actions
This is correct. My math sucks at 9 in the morning.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jul 28, 2010 9:28 AM PDT up reply actions
Correct. But what 40-23 really comes down to
is going 33-23 (being a solidly good team) and also having a 7-game winning streak in some week where you’re on fire. In small samples, it’s a lot easier to play .635 ball even if you can’t do it for 6 months.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I can see the 7 game winning streak. I'm having trouble seeing the 33-23
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 9:36 AM PDT up reply actions
Like I said, I don't see the A's contending
But it’s not impossible. If Anderson comes back healthy the A’s will throw a good to excellent pitcher every day. One power hitter would help a ton, but…we’ll see.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I'm coming around to the idea of throwing Carter and Taylor to the wolves
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 9:42 AM PDT up reply actions
Even if it's as much for 2011.
They have to get tested, adjust, get adjusted to, adjust back, etc. sometime, plus if they happen to start strong they might help you, a la John Mabry, for 2010.
But this would work better if Carter weren’t a 1Bman-and-nothing-more. Had he been DHing at AAA and/or playing LF, you’d have a better set of options.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Ya but he's not playing 1B in Oakland unless Barton is
traded, and you can always move him back there if you do that. He needs to start DHing now or playing LF now.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 10:01 AM PDT up reply actions
And by now,
we mean last April.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Well yes, but now's better than never
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 10:06 AM PDT up reply actions
What are you talking about?
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Jul 29, 2010 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Please be kidding.
Daric Barton is the best hitter on the team right now who’s not named Jack Cust. Why the hell would we send him down for a two month trial of Carter? If the A’s are that set on getting him a cup of coffee, why not just put him at either DH, (where he’ll end up) or LF?
by MrMoneyBaller on Jul 30, 2010 1:15 AM PDT up reply actions
Holy shit we agree on something
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 28, 2010 9:36 AM PDT up reply actions
And if...
Nico, I am well aware that freak injuries can happen [Coughlan] Kendry Morales [Coughlan] but I just think that the Rangers could handle it with a replacement level player and still be fine.
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 28, 2010 9:45 AM PDT up reply actions
I think he meant if they had a rash of injuries
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 9:49 AM PDT up reply actions
Or even one key injury.
The combination of Hamilton being out, and Lewis/Wilson pitching sucktastically, could be enough to bring them down to .500.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Are the schedules favorable...
…for both an A’s surge and a Rangers slump?
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 28, 2010 9:03 AM PDT up reply actions
They do play each other a bunch more times
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 9:05 AM PDT up reply actions
theres no way in hell the rangers play .600 ball in august/september
never happened, never will….its about to get real hot down there.
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
They have won 3 division titles. Atlanta and St Louis have won lots of divisions in heat.
(cue canine humor)
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 9:27 AM PDT up reply actions
I would not trade Bailey right now.
He is an excellent closer and a poor man’s Mariano Rivera. There is no gaurantee that Montero will be a two time all star and rookie of the year. I would trade Bailey only for proven major league talent. And I agree, Yankee prospects tend to be overrated. Bret Gardner is playing out of his mind. Robinson Cano is great. Since their explosion of home grown talent in the mid 90’s, who other than Cano have they developed that is a stud?
We have shown a propensity for manufacturing closers
but a deficiency in hitters. I say help fix our weakness from a point of strength.
*WARNING!* Playing online multiplayer games may change your: Religion, Sexual Orientation, Race and/or Gender for undetermined periods of time.
It's not even "hitters" so much as premium hitters. They have lots of non-horrible hitters.
Put Crawford in LF, turn Taylor, Carter and Cardenas into an All-Star RF and you have a real contender if you can keep Crisp/Rajai in CF.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 8:59 AM PDT up reply actions
we're not signing crawford...
Rajai Davis is quicker than a long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs.
With as easy as it seems to have been for the Athletics
It seems that ‘manufacturing a closer’ has more to do with giving an otherwise decent pitcher a chance to close games and prove himself.
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 28, 2010 9:07 AM PDT up reply actions
And do it in a friendly park in front of a good defense
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 9:08 AM PDT up reply actions
I'd be a little wary of Gardner, who has extreme H/R splits this season
Gardner has been Sizemore at home, Raj Davis on the road.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Rajai feels offended....then looks at his stats....cowers
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 9:33 AM PDT up reply actions
A short list of things that are irrelevant: 1) Rookie of the Year Awards
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 28, 2010 9:33 AM PDT up reply actions
3) Saves
""Imagine if you go there to see Miss Universe and you end up having Miss Iowa..." - Miguel Batista
4) Gold Gloves won while DHing
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
5) Pitcher W-L record
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
6) Whether or not boobs are real
"Tiny Gallon counts as at least 35 Power Forwards by himself." ~ Aykis16
by CaliforniaJag on Jul 28, 2010 6:14 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
The issue I have is that the premise of the post,
and all the analysis, is that the Yankees offered Montero for Soria straight up, and I don’t really believe that. I think we got half the story.
That being said, I’d do Bailey for Montero without hesitation. Remember that Bailey has already had knee problems and that a hard breaking cutter isn’t the easiest pitch on the arm. The chance to get a hitter rated a solid “A” by Sickels — who only gives that grade to hitters like Wieters and Heyward — is just too important to pass up. Even as a DH Montero, if as good as rated, would be too valuable a piece not to add.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Is a cutter hard on the arm?
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 9:06 AM PDT up reply actions
Depends. The kind of movement Bailey gets
suggests he’s snapping it off pretty fiercely. Rivera’s is more constant cutting action whereas at times Bailey’s is more like a “really hard slider.”
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I'm not the best person to comment on this
But I would believe the opposite to be true. A cutter is thrown more like a fastball – and if that’s the case, would be easy on the arm.
This is true, but it depends on how it's thrown.
The kind of movement Bailey sometimes gets on it suggests he may be snapping it off more than you necessarily would with a typical cutter.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
We could just trade Carter if we got Montero.
Right?
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
Or Barton
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 9:18 AM PDT up reply actions
dont say that too loud around here
;)
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
It's not in caps
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 9:49 AM PDT up reply actions
if Carter and Montero hit like they are suppose to and cant catch or play the OF then of course you trade Barton
pretty much everybody here will agree with that.
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 28, 2010 10:05 AM PDT up reply actions
Barton and Carter would have surprisingly low trade value.
First base prospects are so common. I looked closely at every major league roster the other day…I couldn’t find one team that didn’t either have
a.) A “name” first baseman
b.) A young, cost-controlled first baseman it was seemingly content with
c.) A burgeoning 1b prospect, like a Freddie Freeman/Smoak/Ike Davis type.
Now granted, there will be a free agency shuffle that changes that scene with Carlos Pena/Konerko/Dunn this offseason and A-Gon/Fielder/Pujols in the next, but the point still holds:
there’s about 35 worthy/tolerable first basemen in MLB organizations, and only 30 starting 1b slots.
It’s like the opposite of the shortstop position, basically. Which makes sense.
(Long-winded point being, Carter and Barton wouldn’t garner much via trade, because they don’t represent obvious, significant upgrades for most teams).
"It’s ideal if your hobby and your living can merge. But you are not going to stop your hobby if you can’t make money out of it. Your hobby is all about trading time for enjoyment. My job is what I do. My hobby is who I am." -Tango
by notsellingjeans on Jul 28, 2010 11:12 PM PDT up reply actions
I think that this
(Long-winded point being, Carter and Barton wouldn’t garner much via trade, because they don’t represent obvious, significant upgrades for most teams).
Also hides the fact that the perception of low power 1b man or a minor league who strikes out a ton. A GM is judged on perception.
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 28, 2010 11:44 PM PDT up reply actions
agreed.
"It’s ideal if your hobby and your living can merge. But you are not going to stop your hobby if you can’t make money out of it. Your hobby is all about trading time for enjoyment. My job is what I do. My hobby is who I am." -Tango
by notsellingjeans on Jul 29, 2010 6:33 AM PDT up reply actions
the premise of the post is that it's a trade idea that addresses logical needs for both sides.
It’s coincidental that the Yanks are rumored to have asked for Soria. I started writing the post a week ago, before I had read the Soria rumors.
What’s hard to deny is that Montero is available for the right package of major-league talent. We have at least a dozen different baseball writers, covering different teams and markets, that have separately reported rumors of his inclusion in offers for (separately) Halladay last offseason, Lee a few weeks ago, and Soria this week. It’s far more likely that there’s truth to these rumors than it is that all of them – all three separate sets of rumors, and each individual reporter – are wrong.
The premise of the post is that Montero is the last currently available elite hitting prospect. And that we should try to acquire him.
"It’s ideal if your hobby and your living can merge. But you are not going to stop your hobby if you can’t make money out of it. Your hobby is all about trading time for enjoyment. My job is what I do. My hobby is who I am." -Tango
by notsellingjeans on Jul 28, 2010 11:07 PM PDT up reply actions
That makes sense -- I'm only responding to the question
of whether we should, or rather could, swap Bailey for Montero. I really doubt the Yanks would not demand more in return, and doubt they were prepared to swap Montero for Soria straight up. Then again, I still don’t believe the D-backs would deal Haren for “a winner!!111” and two low-level prospects, so…
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
You ALWAYS trade a RP for a top 50 minor league player.
I’d do Bailey for Montero in a nanosecond. We could always throw Ziggy&Devine back into the closer role again….Im not a huge fan of “closer” being an actual position or ranking relievers, this is one case where Id rather use the splits to figure it out.
I’d also trade Suzuki while his value is high and I’d trade either Carter or Barton, there just aint enough room for both of them on this team. You either let the sure thing 3-4 WAR player in Barton take 1B or you take the risk hand it over to Carter, who might be a 5-6 WAR guy. If you could somehow present a package to AZ headlined by Barton, for Justin Upton, then thats just golden.
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
I agree
I’m starting to feel either Barton or Carter will be dealt either at the deadline or in the offseason
Trading Barton would just be dumb, IMO
Here’s a team with precious little hitting who trades one of its only good hitters to open up a spot for someone who might be a good hitter and plays poor defense? At best, you’ve traded one good hitter for another and hurt your defense, and at worst you now have one less good hitter on a team already sorely lacking in offense.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Well it depends what you get back. If you can really get Justin Upton -- I don't think you can --
then you do it.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 9:20 AM PDT up reply actions
All my "don't trade X" comments
are in the context of “If someone offers you way too much then you have to do it.”
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
You could also trade him for an OF of equal value
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 9:24 AM PDT up reply actions
Thats what Im saying
Barton&whatever else for a 4+ WAR RF = we win.
and if Carter flops at 1B….its first base its the easiest place to fill.
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
Ya the ambiguity can't be good for him.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 9:22 AM PDT up reply actions
Worse yet, there hasn't been ambiguity: He's a 1Bman
Trouble is, that’s not what the team needs. Carter should, IMO, have played LF every day this year for Sacramento. He’s basically athletic and the odds of him being able to learn to play LF as well as he plays 1B (which apparently isn’t very well) is reasonably high.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Yes if he sucks everywhere why not have him suck somewhere useful
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 9:25 AM PDT up reply actions
Carter is a future OF IMO
No way he can play 1B in the long-term
Plus, Barton’s got one of the sexiest stretches of any 1B I’ve ever seen. I doubt Carter will ever be able to do that.
Yes, chicks dig Stretchin' Dale
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 9:30 AM PDT up reply actions
Nah. We don't have a Joe Saunders to sweeten the deal.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jul 28, 2010 9:32 AM PDT up reply actions
We have Dallas Braden. He's thrown a Perfect Game you know.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 9:34 AM PDT up reply actions
HE'S A WINNER!!!!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
The question is whether or not a perfect game matches up to .630 win percentage.
We need to devise a new metric so we can compare this.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jul 28, 2010 9:38 AM PDT up reply actions
Braden To Arizona.....
And the moment he gets there he gets shelved.
That would be enjoyable. I like him, but I’d love to see another team get the worse art of a deal
IIRC
Wasn’t that the knock on Barton too? That he didn’t have a position and would be a liability defensively?
by bakerbeachboy on Jul 28, 2010 12:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Plus, Barton's leading the team in sac bunts
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Yeah And?
That proves how much he struggles. He ha to bunt a lot.
Still he can be useful(walks, etc)
wut
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jul 28, 2010 9:27 AM PDT up reply actions
You didn't use sarcasm font
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 9:30 AM PDT up reply actions
But Nico,
Justin Upton is a better hitter than Daric Barton.
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
Yes I know.
Did I miss where the Dbacks offered that deal?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Yes. We need power and Barton.
They’re not mutually exclusive.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Of Course.......
If we could keep both, that would be good.But Carter Should Play, and where will we put him?!!
Left. Field.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I'm not sure Barton tops out at 4 WAR. He's still got room to add power.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 9:19 AM PDT up reply actions
As much as I like Barton, he is what he is - a guy that'll hit .280, draw a lot of walks and hit a few doubles.
I don’t see him hitting for any more power in the future.
"You see, in this world there's two kinds of people, my friend: Those with loaded guns and those who dig. You dig."
I don't either
I could see him improving what he’s already good at to become a .300/.400 hitter with a few more doubles. But I don’t see him developing HR power any more than I see Sweeney developing it.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Bad comparision. Barton's got a "spray line drives" swing and he occasionally can turn on pitches
Sweeney tries to slap everything the other way, he’s like the left handed 6’4" Jason Kendall.
Pam liked my old sig better.
But the outcome is the same: How they hit well does not include hitting for power
In Barton’s case I don’t know that he even HAS the power, but whether or not he does I think it’s a lot more likely he’ll add .020 points of BA and .020 points of OBP than it is that he’ll add 10 HRs.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Line drives are a lot more likely to turn into homers than slapped singles.
I mean, no I don’t think Barton will ever be a 30hr guy, but 20 won’t be out of the question IMO.
Pam liked my old sig better.
15, max. His swing isn't built to hit home runs.
He has a line drive swing without light tower power. It’s what works for him and I’m glad he’s gone back to that approach. When he tried to jack every pitch out of the park he was awful.
"You see, in this world there's two kinds of people, my friend: Those with loaded guns and those who dig. You dig."
and yet he's got the ability to turn on a pitch and hit it out of the park
Pam liked my old sig better.
Would the D-backs actually trade Upton in this firesale they seem to be having?
Honest question cus I thought they just signed him to a long-term deal to be the face of their franchise.
by bakerbeachboy on Jul 28, 2010 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions
No, they wouldn't
If there is a fire sale, and the A’s were willing to trade for a very good AZ player it would be Reynolds not Upton.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
Still........
Barton draws walks and gets on base consistently. Carter is a minor leaguer, so there you have a point, Nico.
I guess, but I really like Carter.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 9:35 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, and then we have to wait on Montero
"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagine such events unfolding!" Bill King
by Buck Turgidson on Jul 28, 2010 9:37 AM PDT up reply actions
not really they have about the same ETA
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 28, 2010 9:37 AM PDT up reply actions
Maybe Carter is a half season sooner
"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagine such events unfolding!" Bill King
by Buck Turgidson on Jul 28, 2010 9:38 AM PDT up reply actions
I think Montero shouldn't be up until midseason next year
unless he starts killing AAA pitching.
He’s in AAA way too early (yay Yankees rushing up prospects), so why not let him master AAA before he gets the callup.
""Imagine if you go there to see Miss Universe and you end up having Miss Iowa..." - Miguel Batista
I agree with this actually
And if Carter isn’t ready by April his value will begin to diminish
"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagine such events unfolding!" Bill King
by Buck Turgidson on Jul 28, 2010 9:46 AM PDT up reply actions
Carter I think is near-ready
He looks like close to a finished product, probably a september callup or opening day gig.
""Imagine if you go there to see Miss Universe and you end up having Miss Iowa..." - Miguel Batista
His bat is certainly adequate
"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagine such events unfolding!" Bill King
by Buck Turgidson on Jul 28, 2010 9:55 AM PDT up reply actions
He could DH now if we'd put up with Cust in LF
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 9:56 AM PDT up reply actions
Did he really say that?
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 9:58 AM PDT up reply actions
The problem is that DHing is a skill,
and Carter has no experience with it. PT called it in the off-season that Carter needed to DH at AAA to see if he could do it and/or learn to do it.
You wouldn’t want to call Carter up and put him in a position to fail. The best chance to succeed is for him to play where he’s comfortable and that’s 1B. Problem.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Cust in LF, Barton DH, Carter 1B?
I’m sure Watson/Carson are very nice people, but I kinda don’t wanna see them on the 25-man roster anymore
Having three players,
and putting the only one who can field worth a darn at DH? No thanks.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Well we didn't know that whether he could play OF then, and we
also didn’t know that Barton was any good.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 10:15 AM PDT up reply actions
Here's what I see happening
Carter will start to play LF in AAA starting in August
If the A’s are out of contention in September, Carter will come up and play LF every day
A month of playing OF isn't enough
to do at it at the big league level as a rookie.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
yeah thats probably true.
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 28, 2010 10:06 AM PDT up reply actions
Carter is inferior to Montero
Both have the same defensive value (zero or near-zero), but Montero’s got the better bat.
A’s have to give up something else in addition to Carter.
""Imagine if you go there to see Miss Universe and you end up having Miss Iowa..." - Miguel Batista
Is a zero value asset, since he's currently on the DL
He’s going to have to come off and make some starts before he has any trade value, and that wont’ happen before the deadline
""Imagine if you go there to see Miss Universe and you end up having Miss Iowa..." - Miguel Batista
Sure, but for what?
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 9:50 AM PDT up reply actions
dude are you a Yankee fan?
(ducks flying chair from dfa)
"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagine such events unfolding!" Bill King
by Buck Turgidson on Jul 28, 2010 9:56 AM PDT up reply actions
We Yankee fans wouldn't do that deal. Remember we overvalue our prospects.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 9:59 AM PDT up reply actions
actually, hughes>gio
more than likely
"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagine such events unfolding!" Bill King
by Buck Turgidson on Jul 28, 2010 10:02 AM PDT up reply actions
I was when I was a kid briefly
When Reggie became a Yankee. And I was in love with Billy Martin.
But I had an excuse – I was 7.
"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagine such events unfolding!" Bill King
by Buck Turgidson on Jul 28, 2010 10:04 AM PDT up reply actions
Thanks for letting me off the hook man
"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagine such events unfolding!" Bill King
by Buck Turgidson on Jul 28, 2010 10:07 AM PDT up reply actions
I was a Giants fan in 1984 when I moved to Oakland
It was good to get that off my chest.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 10:05 AM PDT up reply actions
It's been coming for a while.
"You see, in this world there's two kinds of people, my friend: Those with loaded guns and those who dig. You dig."
Yeah, there was a front-of-the-sports-page story in the Philadelphia Inquirer speculating about this today
Victorino is hurt, so they’re calling up Brown.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
I guess I'll bang this drum again, since it seems like a solution that could be possible.
WARNING. THIS HAS ABSOLUTELY NO STATISTICAL EVIDENCE OR REASONING. ZOMG IT’S JUST A HUNCH.
Ready for it? It’s so obvious to me:
Teach Daric Barton to play third base.
Carter is playing first base pretty exclusively in the minors this year — 90+ games at first compared to five at each corner OF spot, according to BBRef. Fine. If the determination is that Carter has to play 1B, then there is an obvious logjam that will be created when he’s ready for the big leagues, since Barton is pretty much one of the best position players on the team.
Barton came through the minors as a catcher. He’s got the arm, and being able to block balls in the dirt is a skill that can roughly translate to knocking down balls hit down the line. He’s obviously athletic enough to do it – we’ve all seen him do the splits when he stretches for a throw – and I’m pretty sure he’s become coachable, which was IMO the reason he failed at third base in his miniscule 19 game trial run in 2007. Basically, he was a 21 year old hot shit prospect who had essentially never failed at any level in his baseball career, including his September callup that season. 2008 was his rookie year and he was really, really bad. Like, replacement level bad. I think that was a real eye opener, and he realized that being in the big leagues is actually really hard and you have to keep putting in work and trying to get better. I believe that this is also why he started to get really good defensively, because he started to understand that listening to coaches can actually be helpful.
So yeah. Not only do I think this is what Barton should have been doing for all of 2009 in the minors, but if I were him I’d spend the entire offseason taking grounders at third base and learning the position and be ready for the 2011 season.
Barton: 3B
Carter: 1B
Cust: DH
It works out so nicely.
Pam liked my old sig better.
by mikev on Jul 28, 2010 10:46 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
However
This would again mean that we probably won’t see Carter until 2011.
If Barton were to indeed move to 3B, the A’s wouldn’t have him do it in September.
Which is fine. Carter won't particularly help the team in 2010 anyway.
Unless he’s called up to just hang out with the big club and get a taste of what it’s like, and maybe get a handful of at bats
Pam liked my old sig better.
Kouz can be traded pretty easily.
He doesn’t make much, plays pretty good D, and has a little pop.
Pam liked my old sig better.
right hes only been a significantly above league average player.
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 29, 2010 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm totally behind this idea
At least try it. And Kouz would be a solid but not spectacular trade piece.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
If everyone is okay with Joel Youngblood-level "defense" at 3B for a year of more,
and with possibly messing with Barton’s development as a hitter, then go for it.
Barton has played 25 professional games at 3B. It’s much harder to play 3B than to play 1B. He was really, really bad at 3B when he tried it before.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
I disagree. I think he'd be passable and could develop into a good defensive 3B.
Aside from not having to dig out throws from the rest of the infield, 1B and 3B require pretty similar skill sets.
Pam liked my old sig better.
He might
although off the top of my head I can’t think of anyone who played virtually no 3B since high school (and what he did play, he played terribly), then got to the majors and became a good defensive 3B while learning the position in the majors.
And I don’t think the skills are that similar. 1B can be a little iffy on fielding the ball cleanly — knock it down then get to the bag. A 3B who does that needs to make a bullet throw across the diamond to get the out. The longest throw Barton has to make with any regularity is to 2B. He’d also need to learn to charge the ball, to barehand and throw, to move laterally and throw on the run (again, a longer throw than he’s used to making) in both directions.
Put it this way: it’s taken Barton 345 minor-league games at 1B, and then some portion of his 300 games at 1st in the majors, to be a good 1B. Now we’d be asking him to learn a much harder position while playing in the majors. How long will that take? One season? Two? Three? Can he even do it?
I’m on record as having suggested trying Doolittle at 3B (!) before he blew out his knee, because people said he was a great 1B and he pitched in college and had a good arm as a RF — the only reason he wasn’t a 3B already seemed to be that he’s a lefty, and I thought, “Hey, Mike Squires did it…” But that was assuming he’d try this out in the minors, where 40 atrocious games wouldn’t cost the A’s much.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Brandon Inge might be the lone example.
A-Rod moved from SS to 3B, but thats not a big deal
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
Again, Catcher to 3B isn't the same as 1B to 3B, but that's a good example
He did make the transition in the majors, though was pretty awful in his first season at 3B.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Barton didn't go to college
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 28, 2010 10:12 PM PDT up reply actions
my mom didn't go to college either
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 29, 2010 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions
right
i was saying that Inge is not a good example of a player who converted from C to 3B bc he had played SS
I know this but playing a position in college or HS isn't really indicative of talent in that area in the minors or MLB
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 1, 2010 3:59 PM PDT up reply actions
Sure, and I never said it was a certain thing, but we also don't know how many times it's been tried.
I mean, for the most part 1B has always been the big slugger types, or where you hide your really crappy defenders.
Pam liked my old sig better.
How about Pablo Sandoval?
"Tiny Gallon counts as at least 35 Power Forwards by himself." ~ Aykis16
by CaliforniaJag on Jul 28, 2010 6:25 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
It looks to me like he split time among C, 1B, and 3B in the minors
though 3B was mostly the low minors. It does look like the Giants took him off 3B after A ball, then put him back over there in the majors. But then, he’s not a good 3B.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
And its the Giants
""Imagine if you go there to see Miss Universe and you end up having Miss Iowa..." - Miguel Batista
I mean, clearly a team can contend for a division title with Sandoval playing 3B
so he’s not so bad that he just ruins a team or anything. But remember how crappy Kennedy was last year at 3B? And he was a career 2B/SS.
If there were no cost at all to trying this out, then I’d say, “Go for it.” But I think there are serious costs involved: messing with Barton’s development, primarily, but also the cost of a crappy to really bad 3B for some unknown amount of time, and also the cost to Kouz (assuming you keep him) who would be royally pissed off to say the least about this. You could trade Kouz, of course, and plan on going with Cardenas (or even Bailey) if Barton flames out…but if you’re comfortable with Cardenas or Bailey at 3B next year, why not just use one of those guys in the first place?
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Adam Kennedy was not a Career 2b/SS he was exclusively a 2bman
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 29, 2010 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Sorry, my phrasing was misleading
He played a couple of hundred games at SS in the minors (most of his time in the minors was at SS, in fact) and was a 3-time All-American at SS in college. You’re definitely right that he didn’t play SS in the majors (I remember the occasional discussions last year about whether AK could handle SS, and I always answered “No”).
So he was a top college SS, and played SS in the minors before moving to 2B in the majors. In other words, way more experience and proven ability as an infielder than Barton. Still, he was a pretty lousy 3B.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
I need more Nick in my life
I feel like I learn something new every time you post. You know a lot, good sir.
"It’s ideal if your hobby and your living can merge. But you are not going to stop your hobby if you can’t make money out of it. Your hobby is all about trading time for enjoyment. My job is what I do. My hobby is who I am." -Tango
by notsellingjeans on Jul 29, 2010 5:36 PM PDT up reply actions
baseball-reference.com and wikipedia have the knowledge
I’m just passing it on.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Finally some sense
1. Id like to say I am all for moving Barton from 1B so Carter can have a place to play and we can keep Cust. But 3B? This is where I draw the line. Why not LF? We have Kouzmanoff, who is good and getting better with the bat. Replacing Kouz with Dale, who has never played a prime defense position is his life? Outright disaster. I do not see DB being a 3+ WAR player if he’s at 3B, but I see that with Kouz. We would simply be losing games with DB replacing Kouz.
2. mikev’s been pushing this idea for so long, but the problem is that he completely overrates Bartons defense to the point where its sad. I mean splits = athleticism? Thats dumber than anything Ive ever read here. Prince Fielder does the splits too, would you have him at 3B? lol
Seeing how we arent using metrics and just our own eyes here, I must say my mind is blown that people think DB is agile! I cant even watch when I see a ball popped up in foul territory, because I know it aint gunna be pretty. This isnt Nick Swisher here, Barton’s not even in the same sentence as Swish in terms of agility. This is what mikes saying here, he thinks Barton is on Swishers level to the point that he could easily move. I love Barton’s bat, but unless its a move to LF, I dont want him playing anything but 1B. Rating someones defense by how well they play 1B is just not wise at all.
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
He's terribly terrible there.
Id rather try Barton in LF, Carter at 1B, Cust at DH.
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
Just Curious
How do you know he’s terrible in left? Not disputing that he is, just wondering.
by Glorious Mundy on Jul 28, 2010 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions
He doesn't. He just spouts off whatever crap he's thinking at the time.
Pam liked my old sig better.
well half of me wants to believe mikev
that he is athletic enough to handle a non-1B position. LF is not a prime spot, so he might be able to be “stored” there, ala Manny Ramirez. Certainly makes more sense than moving him to 3B.
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
Wait, are you talking about Barton now, or Carter?
I was talking about Carter. No one’s suggesting moving him to third. The question is whether there is any actual evidence that he is a terrible outfielder. It seems plausible that with some reps out there he would be better in left than at first, or that this at least hasn’t been proven not to be the case.
by Glorious Mundy on Jul 28, 2010 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions
I think 3 months of
Carter 1B/Barton LF “experiment” will be all we need. If Carter pulls a Chris Davis or Brandon Wood and is awful, then just plant DB back at 1B and keep the ship afloat. If Carter mashes and Bartons defense in LF is so bad its noticable, then trade DB to a team that needs a 1B. Easy.
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
I think he could play it - he just wouldn't be very good at it.
"You see, in this world there's two kinds of people, my friend: Those with loaded guns and those who dig. You dig."
here's where you lose any credibility
. Replacing Kouz with Dale, who has never played a prime defense position is his life?
\
While apparently ignoring that Barton was a catcher
Pam liked my old sig better.
also Daric Barton is less athletic than Kevin Kouzmanoff, Pablo Sandoval, or Casey Blake?
BS.
Pam liked my old sig better.
thats where we differ.
i put him in with those cats for sure.
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
I meant below those cats.
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
lawlz
"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagine such events unfolding!" Bill King
by Buck Turgidson on Jul 28, 2010 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions
QOTM
BTW, congrats on your shout-out in MLBTR yesterday. Tim Dierkes linked to your great front-page piece.
"It’s ideal if your hobby and your living can merge. But you are not going to stop your hobby if you can’t make money out of it. Your hobby is all about trading time for enjoyment. My job is what I do. My hobby is who I am." -Tango
by notsellingjeans on Jul 28, 2010 11:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Thanks!
He actually sent me an email that morning, asking for my full name so he could give credit. It was pretty awesome, I have to say.
Could you write a piece called,
“C.J. Wilson Is Just Fine, Thank You” and post it before 5pm today? ktxhbai!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
"That's dumber than anything I've ever read here."
Why is that necessary?
Three days ago I wasted 10 minutes of my life sifting through about 100 comments of an off-topic thread where several well-respected commenters were up at the chalkboard patiently teaching you that OBP is far more valuable than SLG.
"It’s ideal if your hobby and your living can merge. But you are not going to stop your hobby if you can’t make money out of it. Your hobby is all about trading time for enjoyment. My job is what I do. My hobby is who I am." -Tango
by notsellingjeans on Jul 28, 2010 10:25 PM PDT up reply actions
I have a question.
Is OBP worth the 1.8x as much as slugging for mathematical reasons (in that that maximum you can slug is 4x that of OBP)? Or is getting on base just way more important for hitting for power. I dunno if I’m articulating well enough.
Keep in mind, of course, that "the best defense of Derek Jeter's life" ranks somewhere in between "the best fiscal responsibility of Mike Tyson's life" and "the best not-getting-assassinated-ness of James Garfield's life." -FJM
The 1.8x weighting factor is based on empiricial data.
Basically, a guy with a spreadsheet [specifically, Victor Wang], dumped the data from every game since 1960 and tried out different weighting factors to see which would correlate most closely to actual winning. That turned out to be 1.8.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
this is sorta right
Tom Tango created the run expectancy matrix and it wasn’t correlated to winning but rather scoring runs.
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 29, 2010 12:05 AM PDT up reply actions
Right
It’s pretty easy to see at the margins (a team of 1.000 OBP players would score infinity runs an inning while a team of .250 OBP / 1.000 SLG players would score ~1 run/inning because each ab is worth 1/4 of a run and 3/4 of an out)
Avoiding outs is the key.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
My bad on wins vs runs.
You’re right that it was correlated to scoring runs but not winning.
I think I’m right on Wang vs Tango, though. The 1.8 factor comes from Wang’s SABR paper introducing his “gross production average”. The run expectancy matrix is a completely different approach to the same problem. It analyzes game positions in terms of outs and men on base and uses empirical data to assign each position with an expected run value.
One can use the REM to judge the relative importance of getting on base vs hitting for extra bases, but that’s not exactly the same as weighting a players OBP against his SLG per se.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
I think you might be right
Tango created wOBA which basically comes out to roughly 1.8 OBP+SLUG/PA scaled to OBP.
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 29, 2010 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions
In mike's defense
he never compared Baton to Swisher…….careful there son.
"By the end of the year, I'll have Dallas throwing right-handed'' -Ben Sheets
Not only that, but Swisher would be a horrible 3B. He's much more suited to OF.
Pam liked my old sig better.
and for porn...
pre-Yanks of course!
:)
"By the end of the year, I'll have Dallas throwing right-handed'' -Ben Sheets
I'm not even gonna lie. I'm a straight man and I'd probably consider it if he offered.
Pam liked my old sig better.
I really like the idea, if it worked
But I think some of Barton’s defensive prowess at first doesn’t translate to third, where doing the splits isn’t really a valuable skill. Plus, I remember last year when he had to fill in at third base (late innings of a game, IIRC) and he basically complained to the press afterward that he really didn’t feel comfortable there and didn’t want to be used there in the future.
yeah mikev always forgets the fact that Daric simply doesnt want to do it.
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
why would he change his mind?
playing in Oakland isnt exactly the top of many players “things to do in my career” list. Im sure he’d not want to jeopardize his trade value by playing a position he is uncomfortable with.
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
i like it in theory
but i don’t think barton has the explosiveness to do it. playing 3b requires quick movements, not just getting to the ball, but transferring it to the glove, throwing on the run and/or off balance, diving and getting quickly to your feet – i don’t see barton being able to do these things. in fact, he’s kind of awkward out there when he’s forced to make quick plays. sure he’s got goot hands, and is quicker than most first basemen out there, but i don’t think his athletecism is 3b quality.
while we’re on the topics of bailey and position changes – would the a’s ever consider trying him in the rotation again? is it just a health concern? he’s certainly got the repetoire – plus fastball, plus cutter, average curve and decent change that he never uses. sure, he failed as a starter in the minors, but that was before he even started throwing the cutter.
Put another way
If Pujols and Teixeira – who came us at 3b and have won gold gloves at 1st – were unable to stay at 3b, why should Barton be any different?
Barton has a catcher's arm, so that's not the issue.
But sadly I think this ship has sailed. It’d be too much work to try him out at 3B now. Especially after he’s proved himself to be a very good defensive 1B.
"You see, in this world there's two kinds of people, my friend: Those with loaded guns and those who dig. You dig."
Barton makes a lot of errors for a 1b
He’s second among MLB first basemen this year with 9, and in his only other full season (2008), he was third among first basemen with 13.
I realize errors aren’t a great way to evaluate defense. However, they factor into this “position-switching” debate for sure.
I’m in the camp that Barton-to-third would absolutely not work. He’d be Mat Gamel II over there – 35-40 error seasons.
"It’s ideal if your hobby and your living can merge. But you are not going to stop your hobby if you can’t make money out of it. Your hobby is all about trading time for enjoyment. My job is what I do. My hobby is who I am." -Tango
by notsellingjeans on Jul 28, 2010 11:30 PM PDT up reply actions
You know who really, really, really, really, really, really sucks at 3B?
Jorge Cantu. Oh. My. Word.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Mike I love this idea bro!
I know lots of folks are opposed to this idea but it might be worth a shot my friend. Hell, I have not seen a better idea up in this thread in terms of what to do with the log jam at first base yet so maybe there is some method to the madness….
Has anyone posed the question in regards to this post of perhaps doing the Montero for Bailey trade in the off season yet? I have not seen it yet but might we discuss this possibility as well? A fantastic post NSJ and always love to see you active on AN my good man….Go A’s!
"By the end of the year, I'll have Dallas throwing right-handed'' -Ben Sheets
YAY!!
Now iglew definitely needs to make it to Everett to scout him for us!
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Will he be playing with the Vancouver team?
They’ll be in Everett Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday next week. It’s an easy drive for me, closer than Safeco.
I’m a horrible scout, though. I’m one of those simple-minded fans you guys make fun of on the game thread who can’t tell a home run from an easy pop-out when it leaves the bat.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
$2 mil bonus
"The whole world is fueled by bullshit… What? The kid asked me for advice on his science fair project so I’m giving it to him." - shitmydadsays
As the A's I would trade Bailey for Montero.
The second half of the question means nothing to me because I refuse to imagine myself running the Yankees.
If they will do it, great; if they won’t, fine. I’m not sure I believe they really offered Montero for Soria.
Judging from this thread, I think I value both Bailey and Montero less than others here do. I don’t think he’s all that, but I don’t think Bailey is all that either.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Montero is perhaps the best hitting prospect currently in the minors
But he’s not a good defender. Personally, I’d trade Bailey for that, but I can see both sides of not overvaluing Montero when he’s a “DH or should be” kind of prospect.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I wonder if the Yanks make this trade in the offseason too?
Ideally I’d like to keep Bailey until the end of August in case we make things interesting, but in any case I think its ridiculous the Yanks are even offering Montero to anyone. Id trade any single player we have (except our under 25 SPs) for him.
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
see my comment above...
"By the end of the year, I'll have Dallas throwing right-handed'' -Ben Sheets
That That's What She Said?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
No, I was referring to the idea of making this possible trade in the off season
"By the end of the year, I'll have Dallas throwing right-handed'' -Ben Sheets
Hey, what do you know -- that IS what she said!
I know; I was just teasing.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Keep Bailey
Bailey’s a gamer who comes out of the pen throwing strikes. There’s no need to trade him for a young catcher. We have a young catcher, Suzuki, who’s very solid. We don’t need a young catcher right now. Maybe a solid outfielder, but even then we would need another closer, and in spite of what Moneyball implies, they don’t grow on trees.
Gamer? Gamer

Hrrrmmm.
""Imagine if you go there to see Miss Universe and you end up having Miss Iowa..." - Miguel Batista
I agree about not replacing Suzuki but
Montero is not a catcher, he’s an 1B/DH/maybe LF. He’s attractive because he’s arguably the best pure hitting prospect currently in the game, so his strength is entirely the bat, and the bat should play at any position.
""Imagine if you go there to see Miss Universe and you end up having Miss Iowa..." - Miguel Batista
Agreed
I also have a developing theory about the future of the DH position. I think it’s going to evolve in the coming years away from how it’s been typically perceived and utilized by teams.
In the post-PED era, we are seeing less hitters that can maintain effectiveness in their mid-to-late 30s. Those are the guys who typically would’ve found a haven at DH. But now, most of those guys don’t hit well enough to justify DHing them. This is part of why so many teams have gotten burned with awful production from the DH slot his year. So, I think we’ll see more teams putting a guy in the DH spot even his 20s, during the peak of his career.
Another factor leading to this possible mini-movement would be the continuing increased emphasis that teams are putting on defense.
The careers of Chris Carter and Montero would be good test cases for my little theory. Will their organizations allow them to be “minus” defenders early in their career, knowing that they probably have futures at DH anyway? If my hunch is right, teams will start DHing players of this ilk at a younger age, and continue to concentrate on putting better defenders in left field than they used to in the 90s and 00s.
"It’s ideal if your hobby and your living can merge. But you are not going to stop your hobby if you can’t make money out of it. Your hobby is all about trading time for enjoyment. My job is what I do. My hobby is who I am." -Tango
by notsellingjeans on Jul 29, 2010 7:36 AM PDT up reply actions
How about the DH as a revolving-half day off
Like what they were/are trying with the White Sox – but with actually good players.
The Yankees will probably have that in a few years rotating ARod, Tex, Jeter, Mauer, Werth, etc…
Mauer?
He just signed a 180MM deal to stay in Minnesota.
And, Jeter at DH will be hilarious. He’s not even an MLB average hitter. Put him anywhere that’s not SS and his bat is horrible.
The 40 year old A-Roid will just be funny. The Yankees will be funny in 3 years, since they won’t release A-Rod/Jeter/Teixeira/Sabathia/Burnett, but all those guys will start to suck.
""Imagine if you go there to see Miss Universe and you end up having Miss Iowa..." - Miguel Batista
Jeter had an 871 OPS last year
That’s good at any position.
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
He's sorta collapsed this year, though
He’s putting up a career-high groundball/flyball ratio (2.04, compared to 1.35 last year and a previous career high of 1.53), his linedrive rate is down, his walk rate is down a lot (10.1% to 7.6%) and his K rate is up.
Overall in 2010, .274/.335/.388. Bleh.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Yeah, that's not gold glove quality, is it?
Oh wait, it’s Jeter so YES IT IS!!!!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I agree with your overall point, though. :)
About the rotating-good-and-expensive player through DH.
"It’s ideal if your hobby and your living can merge. But you are not going to stop your hobby if you can’t make money out of it. Your hobby is all about trading time for enjoyment. My job is what I do. My hobby is who I am." -Tango
by notsellingjeans on Jul 29, 2010 5:39 PM PDT up reply actions
I really wish teams would start calling players DHs right from the start.
Once we finally get defensive stats perfected it will become more clear that defensive worth can indeed cancel out offensive worth, and by wasting everyone’s time by playing certain players in the field with the only literal reason being that they’re young, is not a recipe for winning games.
There is an extreme disconnect occurring right now with market values where teams are taking notice that they are overpaying for, 7 times out of 10, a players declining years. “Overpaying” and “Recession” arent 2 words that sit together well and many teams owners arent going to stand for it. Especially with a new era of incredibly talented young players (Posey, Heyward amongst many), its way more cost effective for teams to draft wisely and use the 6 years of cost-control than to buy a team. That wont ever stop the Yankees, but every other team is certainly feeling the crunch.
I dont see a non-Yankees team giving any player $20+MM a year or a $100MM contract. It would be extremely surprising….
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
It's an interesting contradiction
to acknowledge that defensive stats are not yet perfect while at the same time saying that we know what they will show when they are.
Once we finally get defensive stats perfected it will become more clear that …
How can you really know that, unless you already have a working process for measuring defensive value?
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
theres clear faults in defensive metrics, everyone agrees on this.
they are close though, and we will know when they are correct when the misleading data is fixed.
Honestly, the only way defense will ever be measured correctly would be to find out what the most difficult plays a player can make at a position, then test every player in mlb and grade them based off that. The tests would have to be for the exact same game situation and the ball must be in the exact same position. As an example for third basemen, a line drive thats just fair down the 3B line, a bunt and a ground ball to the players left. You could easily come up with better examples but you catch my drift. Every player would get the same situations in random order, just like a game. How they fare will determine their grade. Im sure this is full of holes but it seems like a start.
Im not a huge fan of basing metrics off every players in-game choices, what if some players get particularly more difficult balls to field than others? They might be a perfectly fine defender, but getting to the ball and making an error where another 3B wouldnt even touch the ball, seems slightly unfair. Also error calls are notoriously fickle, theres too many inconsistencies there with every umpire.
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
Have there been any thoughts about his potential to play LF serviceably?
That would pique my interest the most.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
He does?
The league is hitting .206 against him this year.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
i have no proof of this and im probably wrong
but it feels like the ball gets hit hard off him. not necessarily for a hit per say, but smashed line-outs or deep fly balls often seem to be the case. hes not much of a ground ball pitcher, at least it doesnt feel that way.
{paging danmerqury to see if this is true}
"It’s ideal if your hobby and your living can merge. But you are not going to stop your hobby if you can’t make money out of it. Your hobby is all about trading time for enjoyment. My job is what I do. My hobby is who I am." -Tango
by notsellingjeans on Jul 30, 2010 2:30 AM PDT up reply actions
Bailey
Has a 0.94 GB/FB and 14.6% LD rate for his career
People are hitting more line drives this year than last year (up 4.5%)
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
My conclusions:
1. As with Street, the rookie season was unsustainable.
2. We knew this going into 2010.
3. He’s still very good, though.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Well, he's not Mariano Rivera
But there’s only one of those.
""Imagine if you go there to see Miss Universe and you end up having Miss Iowa..." - Miguel Batista
Well it no longer matters
Bailey is proving to be a True Athletic, and is headed for the DL
*WARNING!* Playing online multiplayer games may change your: Religion, Sexual Orientation, Race and/or Gender for undetermined periods of time.
{sighs at the wasted effort gone into the post}
{reminds himself that this is what every Oakland A does, and he should’ve known better}
"It’s ideal if your hobby and your living can merge. But you are not going to stop your hobby if you can’t make money out of it. Your hobby is all about trading time for enjoyment. My job is what I do. My hobby is who I am." -Tango
by notsellingjeans on Jul 29, 2010 5:44 PM PDT up reply actions
Should We Welcome Andrew?
He can join Chavy, Ellis, Sheets, Sweeney, Jackson, Coco, Buck, Anderson, Duke…………………………………………………..Jeez




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