Looking Further Ahead
{NOTE: Early this afternoon, look for an exclusive interview with a former major leaguer, who played for the A's and had a hall-of-fame career...} -Nico
One thing that struck me when the Angels traded a boatload of nothing for Dan Haren, combined with the Diamondbacks trading Dan Haren for a boatload of nothing as well as freedom from paying Haren's friendly contract and the privilege of paying a mediocre pitcher $6 million dollars next year is that teams really do have to plan for the future. The Angels certainly did that, looking not just at this year's slim hopes of catching the Rangers, but next year's better hopes of controlling the AL West while Texas looms with Bankruptcy (assuming that Mark Cuban does not buy the team) and the Mariners rebuilding efforts seemingly put off by this year’s collapse. So what does the future of the A's look like and how can we make sure it is bright.
The first step, as always, is to evaluate what you have, find where you have holes, then find where you need additional upgrades. Looking at these tiers of talent you have available to you on the team can show if you will be good or just mediocre. After all, even if you seem to have a team full of guys who can fill out every position; it does not do you very good if all of them are fringe or average players if there is no one on the other end of the spectrum to pick up that slack. Previous A's teams could get by with a few below average spots in the lineup because they had superstars on the other end to more than pick up their side of the barging. The last few years, that has not been the case for the A's, and it is something that will need to be addressed.
Let’s start with the Pitching Staff. As it stands, under team control and expected back next year are:
Starting Pitching
LHP Brett Anderson
RHP Trevor Cahill
LHP Gio Gonzalez
LHP Dallas Braden
RHP Vin Mazzaro
LHP Josh Outman (Currently DL)
RHP Tyson Ross
RHP Clayton Mortensen
This is a solid cast of starters, though perhaps a little lefty heavy. But Quality overcomes Handedness, and having so many quality starters is not a bad thing at all. Josh Outman, expected back next year, can start the year either in the Bullpen or in Triple A Sacramento while he recovers from Tommy John Surgery, and hopefully with his fastball intact. Tyson Ross as well can hone his starting abilities in Triple A, and Clayton Mortensen is a candidate to battle for the 5th Starter Spot, though if Anderson, Cahill, Gonzalez, Braden and Mazzaro are all healthy, he should, if he continues his success from this year, be able to handily step into Mazzaro's current role of the 6th Starter.
The Starting Rotation is rather set and above average. If Anderson and Cahill continue to develop even further, they become two true Aces, while Gonzalez and Braden give you two solid number 3 starters and Mazzaro fluctuates between a number three and a good number five.
On the 2011 Free Agent list, if 'veteran presence' is needed, I think Jorge De Los Santos of Colorado would be a nice pick up. De Los Santos is one of those pitchers who's numbers look worse than they are, a true effect of Colorado one might say, who posts a FIP vastly better than his ERA, which should make him a cheap pickup should the A's choose to go that route. Other starters include the reclamation project of Brandon Webb, a situation much similar to Sheets, though I have better hopes for Webb myself. And as the Haren trade has shown, the Diamondbacks are likely to be too cheap to bring him back.
My recommendation would be to play it by ear. If De Los Santos and/or Brandon Webb are available for cheap, I would pick them up, especially Webb who could perform as either a Third Ace on the Staff in a perfect world, or become trade bait in July, assuming his arm does not fall off like our dear Ben Sheets did. Otherwise, standing pat with our current rotation would not be a bad idea. But, if a starter like De Los Santos or Webb was signed, it could open up a trade whereby the A's could deal one of Gonzalez, Braden or Mazzaro as part of a package for a solid bat.
Bullpen
Andrew Bailey
Mike Wuertz
Craig Breslow
Brad Ziegler
Joey Devine (Currently DL)
Jerry Blevins
Henry Rodriguez
Ross Wolf
Brad Kilby
Jared Lansford
You can potentially include all of those on the failed-to-make-starting-rotation-list as well. The A's generally go with 7 men in the bullpen, however, the 7th man generally rots on the bench, so his role would likely be unimportant. As for the first six, assuming that they have not been traded (as reliever look to have some value this trade deadline), the A's could go into 2011 with a set pen of Bailey, Wuertz, Breslow, Ziegler, Devine, Blevins, and a Long Relief pitcher based on the 5th/6th Starter battle or a competition in Spring Training. After Blevins, I have to admit, the pen becomes rather thin, but the failed-starter-candidates could bolster that well. The A's have also shown an aptitude for finding relievers off the scrap heap, so I do not worry about the bullpen.
The Pitching side of the team entering next year looks to be solid and above average. The starting rotation in particular should be very solid and hopefully comparable to the Angels moving forward. There are a couple potential acquisitions I would like, but they are of opportunity, and then there is also the potential 2011 version of Androlis Chapman that the A's could jump in the mix for, which is always a plus.
Offensively the team's situation is much more complicated. Let’s take a look at who and what we have for each position available to us. In this case, we are going to have to deal with several options of both kinds, forcing us to make some tough decisions.
Offense:
Catcher:
Kurt Suzuki
Landon Powell
Josh Donaldson
First Base:
Daric Barton
Chris Carter
Conor Jackson
Second Base:
Mark Ellis ($6 Million Club Option)
Adam Rosales
Adrian Cardenas (Currently in Double A)
Jemile Weeks (Currently in Double A)
Third Base:
Kevin Kouzmanoff
Adam Rosales
Adrian Cardenas (Currently in Double A)
Dallas McPherson
Short Stop:
Cliff Pennington
Adam Rosales
Corner Outfield:
Ryan Sweeney (Currently on DL)
Conor Jackson
Chris Carter
Michael Taylor
Matt Watson
Matt Carson
Corey Brown (Currently at Double A)
Center Field:
Coco Crisp ($5.75 Million Club Option)
Rajai Davis
Michael Taylor
Corey Brown (Currently in Double A)
Designated Hitter:
Jack Cust
Chris Carter
Utility Infielder:
Adam Rosales
Steve Tolleson
Eric Sogard
Corey Wimberly
When I look at our situation for 2011, I am struck by the amount of mediocrity we have. It does look like we could very much have a repeat of our 2010 Offense, and we have seen that this is most certainly not good enough. Major upgrades are needed, which will necessitate replacements and some hard decisions for letting players go and trading some away.
Let’s start by making a lineup of those who we absolutely want on our team in 2011.
C1 Kurt Suzuki
1B Daric Barton
2B
3B
SS Cliff Pennington
LF
RF
CF
DH
C2
BN
BN
BN
The team generally goes with a Backup Catcher and Three Bench Spots, of which one is a utility infielder and two are outfielders, one with the ability to play Center Field.
That is somewhat surprising. Only three players, of which Cliff Pennington is probably the most shocking (he's one of the top WAR short stops in the league, believe it or not). Looking outside of that, I see a lot of positions which we could desperately use some offense. Daric Barton, while producing a good on base percentage, is not known for his power, and while Suzuki is showing his power this year, he is not a power hitter. So I place my priority, to make this team a match for the Rangers and Angels, and yes, the Mariners, to look at our early 2000 teams and compliment the solid rotation with a solid lineup.
The first decision I made was to not pick up the options of Mark Ellis and Coco Crisp. Both can most likely be resigned for cheaper, if the need arises, especially Ellis, who's option is much higher than market value when compared to Orlando Hudson, who is destroying Ellis in terms of value for a much cheaper price, and will again be a free agent. This leaves us with holes at Second Base and Center Field.
The next position I looked at was Third Base, with Kevin Kouzmanoff as the incumbent and under team control next year. Ideally, assuming that he is ready, I would like to put Adrian Cardenas at Third Base, as I am unhappy with Kouzmanoff's .307 OBP (in line with his projections) and .310 wOBA, but I feel that our hole at 2nd Base and Jemile Week's fragility, which makes me want to start him for sure in Triple A Sacramento next year, makes Kouzmanoff a likely repeat at Third for the A's in 2011.
Going back to Second Base, the position becomes a battle between Adam Rosales and Adrian Cardenas, with Cardenas getting the job if he proves he is ready in Spring Training, otherwise getting it mid season, with Rosales winning the job if Cardenas loses, and getting the Utility Infield job if Cardenas wins.
Moving to the outfield shows our main problem. We have a lot of non-production coming from spots in the lineup that require production, especially because we are not getting much production from the infield, and First Base being lower than is typically expected from the position.
If we were to go with the incumbent outfield, we would have an outfield of Ryan Sweeney, Rajai Davis and Conor Jackson. This is not good. Not good at all. Thankfully, Chris Carter and Michael Taylor have remembered how to hit, and if they keep it up, will likely be ready for 2011. That solves two of our outfield problems. The problem is what to do with the third position. Michael Taylor, as shown in Sacramento, can play Center Field or Right Field. Chris Carter has been playing acceptable defense in the Corner Outfield, and as we've all grown used to seeing Jack Cust in the outfield, we can likely live with that. The third position has several options.
The First option is to use a platoon of Ryan Sweeney (who's knees are shot, likely eliminating much of his defensive value and part of his offensive value) and Conor Jackson (who's hammy is shot).
The Second option is to play Rajai Davis in Centerfield, with Taylor and Carter manning the Corner Outfield positions.
The Third option is to shift Carter into the Designated Hitter position, Rajai Davis in Center Field, and a platoon of Ryan Sweeney and Conor Jackson in the corners.
The Fourth option, and the one that I fully endorse, is to go hard after Carl Crawford and sign him to play Left Field. I view Crawford as one of the most valuable free agents this off season, a player on the right side of thirty who can play plus defense, with a plus bat and plus speed. The A's have the money, and we've also seen these last few off seasons that mediocre signings produce mediocre or bad results, while wasting money, and that the few contracts that produce actual value tend to be the few premium contracts signed. Crawford will likely be this premium contract, and I would prefer that the A's got him instead of the Angels.
I want more offense in the lineup, and I feel that retaining and relying on Sweeney and Jackson alone would simply maintain our current mediocrity at those positions.
Finally, the last offensive position left to us is the Designated Hitter. I looked around, and found that there are several candidates for that position, so that buying one should not be a difficult thing to do, and all produce about the same wOBA and value. So you can pick your choice between:
David Ortiz
Lance Berkman
Paul Konerko
Manny Ramirez
Jack Cust
Yes, that Jack Cust, believe it or not, has around the same wOBA as the others.
My recommendation would be to go very hard after Carl Crawford, or to trade for a very good franchise outfielder who can help carry a lineup so that the rookies (Carter and Taylor) do not have to by themselves. Combine this with a good, solid Designated Hitter, of which you can take your pick, assuming that Adam Dunn resigns with Washington (otherwise, he'd be my choice, though an expensive one), and you have your lineup.
2B Adrian Cardenas
1B Daric Barton
LF Carl Crawford
DH Jack Cust or Other
RF Chris Carter
CF Michael Taylor
3B Kevin Kouzmanoff
C1 Kurt Suzuki
SS Cliff Pennington
C2 Landon Powell
OF Ryan Sweeney
OF Conor Jackson
IF Adam Rosales
It is not as solid a lineup as I would have hoped, but it already looks better. And after looking at that you are not convinced that the lineup is much better, replace Crawford, Carter and Taylor with Sweeney, Jackson and Davis, and see for yourself.
Without a solid offense to go with our pitching staff, we will again be stuck in the position of a team that keeps losing 3-2 games. We must step forward and change that, and win those games 4-3 if we wish to win our division, and reclaim our place as second all time in World Series trophies, and get the Angels to remember that they only have 1.
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Nice write-up.
Your SP portion did not include Duke. I approve.
This is only gut feeling, but I suspect Cust will play elsewhere in 2011.
Bob Geren... Jackie Moore without the personality.
Is it really a bad idea to give Duke another shot in 2011?
I don’t know if anything is known about his progress, I’m just askin’..
Hi ho.
IMO yes
It’s time to move on. Duke has proven he can’t stay healthy.
by bakerbeachboy on Jul 27, 2010 1:32 AM PDT up reply actions
He's also proven that when he is healthy he's a #1 starter
And where else can the A’s get an opportunity to add a #1 starter for only a few million bucks? The veteran presence and work ethic alone are worth the 1-2M he’ll get paid. The real problem would be to count on him to make more than a few starts. The gamble’s worth it but only as a “holy crap he’s actually healthy, now we have too many good starters” kind of way.
He's due!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I respectfully disagree with you on this one
Mainly because I’ve grown tired of signing players to the major league club with extensive injury histories in hopes that they’ll turn in a healthy season.
We have a lot of young pitching right now. I want the those guys filling out my rotation. If Duke is willing to play in AAA then so be it…give him a minor league deal and call him up for a spot start if needed and if he’s healthy (obviously). But I really don’t want him to be an option for Geren to consider slotting into the rotation anymore.
by bakerbeachboy on Jul 27, 2010 10:07 AM PDT up reply actions
That is one hideous OF defense
I’d rather choose two of Barton, Carter and Cust. If I really believed in Carter for 2011, I’d trade Cust. Alternately I’d keep Cust on the bench over Sweeney since he can actually hit, while if Sweeney can’t play defense, he’s useless.
You can’t really put Taylor in CF. It’s either Crisp or Rajai, and if Crisp must be sacrificed to pay Crawford $23M/year then I’m OK with Rajai. If you don’t like Rajai, then you have to get another CF for cheap.
I don’t see how you can count on Cardenas for 2011 when he couldn’t even handle AAA in 2010. I’d give Tolleson a chance before Cardenas. If you want to save money on Kouzmanoff, an IF with both Rosales and Tolleson would be worth getting Crawford. Especially with Weeks and Cardenas maybe coming up by the end of 2011 or 2012.
I also don’t see Cahill as anything close to an ace and not in Anderson’s class. He and Gio are both league average starters as far as I’m concerned. Mazzaro might be around there as well.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
Cust is only worth keeping if you use him at DH. Otherwise, he'd be a DFA candidate.
The question is if you can get another DH, of which there should be plenty next year, for cheaper.
Who's cheaper than Cust? He's less than $3M.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 26, 2010 4:37 AM PDT up reply actions
Cust has a higher wOBA than all of the DH options you listed.
He is younger, healthier and will be probably be the cheapest of the lot. Cust has a wRC+ of 158 this season – only Cabrera, Morneau, Hamilton, Youkilis and Cruz have a higher wOBA than him this year – he should be a no brainer to offer arbitration to.
You mean Jorge De La Rosa
and I agree with pursuing him. The reality, as I see it, is that the A’s do NOT have enough starting pitching. They have 5 good starters, 2 of whom have big injury questions, and a lot of meh. That’s not nearly enough to get through a season.
As for offense, Crawford ain’t coming. Which means you need to deal for another hitter, and not a pretend one like Conor Jackson — a real one, like Uggla, or Reds prospect Todd Frazier, or my new shiny toy prospect target, San Diego’s Jaff Decker.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
How would they get Frazier without giving up Cahill or Gio?
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 25, 2010 8:59 PM PDT up reply actions
Frazier's turning 25 before next season,
he doesn’t really have a position, and he’s still a career minor leaguer. I don’t think you necessarily need to part with a Cahill or Gio to get him.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I guess, but the Reds need starters. I guess you could try Ross and Ynoa or something.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 25, 2010 9:44 PM PDT up reply actions
He hasn't had a good year this year.
he wouldn’t even be close to an established young starter level.
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 26, 2010 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Jaff Decker is a good prospect,
and you can never have too many hitters, but I see Decker ending up as a 1b/DH when it’s all said and done, and I think we’re going to be set in that position. He reminds me of Wallace a lot.
Keep in mind, of course, that "the best defense of Derek Jeter's life" ranks somewhere in between "the best fiscal responsibility of Mike Tyson's life" and "the best not-getting-assassinated-ness of James Garfield's life." -FJM
According to Sickels, he's one of those guys who
looks like he shouldn’t be able to play in the field but surprisingly can. Which is kind of the opposite of brothers with the surname Patterson!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Ya, I'm going on nothing more than what I see.
Just a hunch of mine.
Keep in mind, of course, that "the best defense of Derek Jeter's life" ranks somewhere in between "the best fiscal responsibility of Mike Tyson's life" and "the best not-getting-assassinated-ness of James Garfield's life." -FJM
Corey Patterson has always been an excellent CF
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 26, 2010 4:36 AM PDT up reply actions
He hasn't really been a good defender for a number of years though
And he looks terrible in left (could just be adjusting to the different angles though).
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 26, 2010 6:43 AM PDT up reply actions
playing the left side of that park has always been tough
easy to lose the ball in the lights.
Yeah, he can. He's also upped his conditioning significantly
so he can play in the field.
Look at the pic travdog posted, and then look at this pic, which is from his HS years.

Although, the Padres trading him probably means Adrian Gonzalez got an extension, so the Pads are semi-decent in the OF. I want him though.
"Swingles is Day to Day: IE: He’s being turned into a zombie, but they don’t want the world to know for another 5 days (retroactive)" ~Zonis
I just think of Wallace,
who went from “he’s got great range for a big guy” when he was drafted to “he can still be average to below average in the field” to “he’s only got the range for first”. I think it just comes with that body type. As the years go by, I think his range will decrease, along with his value.
Keep in mind, of course, that "the best defense of Derek Jeter's life" ranks somewhere in between "the best fiscal responsibility of Mike Tyson's life" and "the best not-getting-assassinated-ness of James Garfield's life." -FJM
Awesome post, Zonis.
sock puppets have never successfully defended castles, except when working with squirrels, which would never happen because squirrels know better than to trust sock puppets, except when their nipples have magical powers. -nm
agree to this
"Swingles is Day to Day: IE: He’s being turned into a zombie, but they don’t want the world to know for another 5 days (retroactive)" ~Zonis
It's hard for me to believe...
That the As will sign crawford or any of those other free agents. Even when they overpay they don’t get any good hitters. Cust is by far the most likely.
Crawford and the rest stand a much better chance at becoming As AFTER their next contracts.
It’s tough to say whether or not Carter will be able to adequately handle 1B next year. If he can play the field it changes things.
You’re right that the team needs better hitters to take the pressure off Carter and Taylor. I just don’t see it happening via free agency… Nor do I see the As having the pieces to trade for a major bat.
I prefer to live in a world where Carl Crawford is a possibility for my team, and I don't welcome your dose of reality
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 25, 2010 9:06 PM PDT up reply actions
I know I'm in the minority for this, but I'm wary of signing Crawford.
First off, if we look at last offseason, we see the A’s will have to overpay to get him to Oakland. It’s such an easier sell when you’re saying, “Come play for the Yankees/Angels/whomever else, win championships, and play in a smaller, nicer ballpark for adoring fans,” than "Come to Oakland. We’ve got some but questionable young talent and every time you foul a ball off, somebody will probably catch it. Yeah, sorry, our field is a dump and fans don’t really come too often. Also, he plays LF. If you want Carter and Cust in the same lineup, you need one of them in LF. Personally, I don’t want Carter anywhere near 1B or RF. For $20M, I vote “No.”
How about Cust in RF?
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 25, 2010 9:17 PM PDT up reply actions
What about Taylor? He ain't playing CF.
by Brett Narloch on Jul 25, 2010 9:20 PM PDT up reply actions
He was just speculating on how the A's could fit Cust and Carter into the same lineup if Crawford was signed to play LF.
Ya I wasn't thinking about Taylor at all
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 25, 2010 9:25 PM PDT up reply actions
His UZR is plain terrible.
Since 2007, he’s posted a -17.2, -109.1, -27.9, and -16.6. Personally, I don’t want Cust anywhere near the field. If I had to choose, Carter would play LF.
I see the OF as being utterly horrendous, and I don't see Taylor really changing that very
much in 2011. Crawford fills the biggest need we have. I’d rather put Cust on the bench than play him or Carter in the OF. I’d rather have Crawford – Davis – Taylor with Carter at DH even if it means eliminating Kouzmanoff, Crisp and Ellis than to have an OF of Taylor – Crisp – Davis with Kouzmanoff and Ellis. I’m a “stars and scrubs” believer. We got the scrubs but we ain’t got no stars.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 25, 2010 9:25 PM PDT up reply actions
I believe he has always said no
doubt he would sign with a team that would want to convert him.
I also doubt he will sign with the A’s
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes
If Carter can show he can mash with abandon
why do you waste 1B on the powerless Barton? Barton is absolutely an excellent trade piece, I think, for a team with big hitters at 2B, SS, 3B & C. That would make Boston, Atlanta, Florida, Texas, Washington & Tampa Bay all potential trade partners between now and next years trade deadline.
If Donaldson looks to be a really good hitter who can OPS 800+, why keep Suzuki around too? I think Boston, who are known to covet Suzuki, match up for a blockbuster deal. AN, who would you think we could get from the red sox for Barton & Zooks?
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
If you counted me, then it's 4,999
Strange thought: We keep our good young players and add to them.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 25, 2010 9:41 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
not gonna happen
till we get a stadium
Rajai Davis is quicker than a long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs.
It's actually happening right now
We’re seeing around whom the A’s intend to build (Anderson, Suzuki…) Beane has been consistent about saying that in regards to this group and he has been acting accordingly.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
What a concept, eh?
I swear there are people who don’t give a rats arse about winning, and are way too enamored with the notion of collecting prospects.
Bob Geren... Jackie Moore without the personality.
I think, and I've said this elsewhere in the thread, that the years of being penniless have given us a perpetual focus on the future.
I think all of us sometimes have the tendency to think more about hoarding prospects and selling high and collecting value and saving payroll space that we forget we already have some good players and good talent and a decent team to build on.
I mean, to hear us talk sometimes—and I include myself in this, to be sure—you’d think we were the Mariners or something. We’re not. We’re tied with the Angels for second. If this team plays against the Rangers this week the way it played against the White Sox over the weekend, we have a shot at sweeping in Arlington and being 4.5 games back of first.
We are in the rare position of already having it both ways. We have a pretty bright future locked up for ourselves with a young team and a good collection of prospects, both of which will only get better as players develop and a couple new pieces are added to the mix. But we also have a team that just might sneak into the postseason this year. And I don’t feel right just shipping away the guys that helped us get here, whether that’s Barton, Ellis, or Cust. We wouldn’t be the first team of hitless wonders to make it farther than we had a right to.
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Jul 27, 2010 4:25 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't think Atlanta (Freeman) or Florida (Morrison and Sanchez) are candidates for Barton
Boston is only if they don’t re-sign Beltre. I’d love to get something from Tampa Bay or Texas.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 25, 2010 9:27 PM PDT up reply actions
what is the upside on Barton?
not sure about the Barton hate. He shows excellent plate discipline and ability to recognize pitches. His OPS is just short of .800, he is about to turn 25 in August, and has gotten hot in August/September before. Meanwhile, Carter and Taylor turn 24 and 25 in December, and have no major league experience and have had challenges in AAA this year. Not disparaging them, but it would seem as reasonable to bet on Barton improving as it would be Taylor and Carter seamlessly transitioning to the major leagues.
Theres no hate
The team needs power, 1Bmen bring power, and Barton is a great hitter, however he has no power. Carter has power, but cannot play in the OF and we might want to keep Cust or bring in a FA DH such a Manny Ramirez. I love Bartons approach at the plate minus the silly, wasteful sac bunts, but if Carter is going to mash, we can suddenly have an excellent offense.
Or we could just trade for Werth and plug him in at RF, that would work too. Sweeney is also no more than a 4th OF at this point, Werth would be an incredibly good upgrade.
Barton-Ellis-Penny-Kouz-Zooks-Raj-Coco-Werth-Cust = real shot at making the playoffs this year, screw Haren & LAAA
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent.
Barton is a good hitter.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jul 25, 2010 10:49 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
This is true
But it easier to get better hitters at corner positions such as first base, and good hitters with power are better than good hitters without. I agree that moving Barton shouldn’t be a priority but getting a middle of the order hitter should be, and that should include looking at options who play first base.
Here's what people have to ask themselves:
1) Is replacing Barton’s .351 wOBA + above average defense with [hypothetical better 1st baseman] enough of an improvement to justify the large amount of cash and/or prospects required for [hypothetical better 1st baseman]?
2) If you do receive that upgrade at 1st base, is your team still better off overall? For example, what if it took Barton + Gio to land your significant improvement at first base?
3) And I’m getting sick of referring to [hypothetical better first baseman] as [hypothetical better first baseman]. It’s time to remove the hypothetical and come up with actual names. I’m looking at the WAR leaderboards for 1st baseman this year and all the players who are ranked higher than Barton are either unattainable, unattainable unless you pay a king’s ransom, or old and/or unlikely to outproduce Barton in the future.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jul 25, 2010 11:34 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Not that I agree with trading Barton but it would mainly be done to fit Carter into the lineup, and improve at other positions with the return from Barton.
Therefore the hypothetical better 1st baseman would not require a large amount of prospects and cash
I have serious doubts about whether Carter will be a better player than Barton. And he certainly has a huge bust potential.
So it seems to me like trying to fit Carter in the lineup by getting rid of Barton is a foolish move. And Barton is the type of player who’s not going to get much of a return anyways.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jul 26, 2010 5:40 AM PDT up reply actions
Exactly
We all love Carter and root for the guy but even the more highly regarded prospects turn into busts all the time. Even if he’s not a bust long-term, there’s a good chance he will struggle mightly in his first year in majors (Justin Smoak, anyone? Or Barton himself for that matter).
Currently this team has a pretty good first baseman in Barton and a disgusting mess in the outfield and the only reasonable thing to do with Carter when they decide to promote him (and he earned it much more than Taylor, I don’t understand why people started slobbering all over him after he stopped sucking for 15 minutes) only logical thing to do is play him in the outfield.
"Rollins helps them with the small ball when he's not in the lineup." - Joe Morgan
What I don't get is why they aren't putting Carter in LF or DH now.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
yes
I don’t see much of a problem with an outfield of Carter Crisp and Taylor and Jackson/Sweeney.
Its not the best defensively, but there are no good options. Crawford is not coming to oakland.
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes
I remember reading in one of the recent interviews
Beane said they intend to start trying Carter in LF a lot more. My reaction on reading that was, “why haven’t you been doing that already?”
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
The A's simply don't have a plan.
One day, they’re playing Carter in LF. The next day, he’s at first base. I don’t know if joshing him around like that would negatively affect his hitting but it certainly can’t help.
He’s a young player with a host of things to work on. Pick a damn position and make him stick to it.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jul 26, 2010 4:09 PM PDT up reply actions 5 recs
This gets a rec
The subject seems to apply to most areas of the organization these days.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 26, 2010 4:50 PM PDT up reply actions
You could actually argue the A's have done exactly that
But they’ve done it at a position where the A’s don’t need help for the next few years.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Yeah, my point is that Carter would be a better 1B option though.
Im not into signing or trading for a 1B.
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
Nah...
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jul 26, 2010 4:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Barton reminds me a lot of
James Loney.
"Stupid sexy Flanders!!!"
- Homer Simpson
by Rangerchick on Jul 25, 2010 11:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Not really.
Barton has much better on base skills, better defense, is younger, and has already matched Loney’s career high in WAR production in 2/3 of a season this year. Their similarities stop at less-than-average power for a 1st baseman.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jul 25, 2010 11:36 PM PDT up reply actions
oh brother
not this talk like 1B defense is really important again…the worst defensive 1B this year are (in order by UZR/150) Kornerko, Howard, Mig-Cab, Glaus, Fielder, Teixiera, LaRoche, Pena. I’d take almost all of those guys over Barton. Because they hit HR and have better OPS’s.
1B defense….not a huge selling point and never should viewed as such.
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
The idea is that the difference between a very good 1B and a poor 1B saves fewer runs
than the difference between a very good 2B or CF or SS and a poor 2B or CF or SS.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Yes, but you better be a damn good 1B in order to justify being a Defensive 1B
especially when it is a position that is expected to pick up the slack for the other premium defensive positions.
I really wish we could move Barton to 2B
but him and the word “agile” dont look like they know each other.
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
He couldn't cut it at 3B
best bet is if he could make it in the outfield, and Carter at 1B, actually.
I'd really like him to try again during the offseason
Playing third for 3 weeks in 2007 is way different than now, when he’s shown a significant improvement in his defense anyway.
Pam liked my old sig better.
No, that makes absolutely no sense.
Kouzmanoff is really blossoming, is already at 2.0 WAR and will most likely end up in between 3-4 on the year. Placing Barton at a prime defensive position and crossing your fingers he suddenly wont have his catcher-like agility that works for him at 1B, would be suicide.
I cant fathom Barton ever being a 3-4 WAR 3B. It just makes no sense at all. We would be losing games by doing this. I dont want to lose games.
I like Barton, but he really has no place on this team. If we had Utley or Han-Ram or Wright or Mauer, then things would be way different, but we dont.
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
Barton absolutely has a place on this team
1-7 HR corner outfielders, however, don’t.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
1-7 HR players
there would seem to be a lot of place on this team for them at the moment. Half a lineup’s worth.
Oh, wait, you meant “if this team wanted to compete”.
Your third place Oakland A's.
by eastcoasta'sfan on Jul 26, 2010 10:54 AM PDT up reply actions
Except you have no idea how well Barton would be defensively at 3B.
So you really need to quit your hyperbole crap.
Pam liked my old sig better.
theres no hyperbole there at all
its the truth. The Oakland A’s have no place for a 5-10 HR, 785 OPS 1B.
This is a fact no matter what, sorry Im not listening to any arguments to the contrary,.
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
Here's my argument to the contrary:
If the A’s had, say, a 30HR guy in LF and a .270/.360/.460 guy in RF, why wouldn’t there be room for a very good defensive 1Bman with a .380 OBP (who makes league minimum)?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Yes but we dont.
I mentioned that already, if we had Utley or Wright or Han-Ram, this wouldnt be an issue at all. But it is, hence this entire quandary.
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
That's why you add a power hitting COFer,
instead of jettisoning one of the few good hitters you do have in order to open up a spot for an unproven slugger with a reputation for not being able to hack it defensively.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
We disagree here
I dont care about 1B defense, I mean we all definitely didnt care about this when Giambi was here, why the change now? Why must we covet this powerless 1B with a 785 OPS???
I also dont think a 785 OPS at 1B is good at all. Good for a 2B yes, but 1B? No. Ideally you want 800+ at 1B, DH & COF. I agree we need new COFers too, but Bartons value is pretty high and 1B is the easiest position to replace even if Carter stinks. I’d shop Daric around to see what we could get…..couldnt hurt.
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
I guess it's ok not to care about 1B defense
I don’t care about #3 starters. Is that ok?
It’s not just that Barton plays good defense and that this is far from unimportant. It’s also that he’s a better offensive player than you’re giving him credit for being. His OPS is not the only measure of how he’s doing. His OBP is another (i.e., he may not slug a lot but MAN is he good at getting on base), and his increasing doubles ability — at the age of 24 — is also relevant.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
My point is: no one cared about Giambi's poor 1B defense when he was here.
Why are we suddenly defending a guy in a prime offensive spots’ defense? Poor 1B defense is easily covered by 30 HR. Carter can hopefully do that.
Im not saying Barton is a bad player by any stretch. He just isnt a good fit on a powerless team. We cant afford the luxury of having a hitter of his quality taking up a position where we need power.
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
Depending on how you define it, he's a perfect fit on a powerless team.
If we’re a team that has to play small ball to score runs, then he’s exactly who we need. And given that we are probably going to be that team for a couple of years until the move to San Jose, and most likely for a few more years even after that, we may need to accept that we’re not building a team known for power.
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Jul 26, 2010 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions
Nobody cared about Giambi's poor defense
because he was, literally, an MVP level hitter, which is good enough to make poor defense a worthwhile trade off. He also improved defensively over time.
If Chris Carter were Jason Giambi circa 2000, you’d have a better point — assuming, of course, you didn’t just want to DH the guy and have a team that was good on offense and defense.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I dont value 1B defense as much as everyone else apparently
so my team would be good on defense too. 7/8 aint bad. Its like do you want Cust/Barton or Cust/Carter? Id roll the dice on the 1B, knowing how easy it is to replace and how high the reward is with Carter.
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
This is illogical
Barton sucks (according to you)
but his value is high right now?
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 26, 2010 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions
Wow, where did I write he sucks????
OH LOOK DFA IS PUTTING WORDS INMY MOUTH AGAIN!!!!
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
Ok ill use your words exactly
Why must we covet this powerless 1B with a 785 OPS???I also dont think a 785 OPS at 1B is good at all
You also don’t believe in 1b defense so unless youre using him as a relief pitcher too you are saying he sucks.
Bartons value is pretty high and 1B is the easiest position to replace even if Carter stinks.
so yeah basically i quoted you 100% accurately.
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 26, 2010 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions
I dont think he sucks though.
He’s going to get better and the league knows it.
You cant say I said “he sucks” when I never wrote such a thing.
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
saying he isn't good at all is saying he sucks
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 26, 2010 4:41 PM PDT up reply actions
So,
Barton is going to get better, and the league knows it, but we know that he’s not good enough? Are the A’s and the league playing different games?
A 5-10 HR .785 OPS player
is by definition going to be better than a 30 HR, .785 OPS player, because it means that it’s OBP heavy.
"Life is a horizontal fall" -Jean Cocteau
by King Richard on Jul 26, 2010 10:23 AM PDT up reply actions
oh, you mean like luis castillo?
he stole bases. barton doesnt do that.
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
I don't understand what you're asking...
I’m just saying that, because OBP is more valuable than SLG, if you have two players with a .785 OPS and one of them has 7 HR and the other has 30 HR, the one with 7 HR is almost certainly a better hitter because his OBP has to be much much higher.
"Life is a horizontal fall" -Jean Cocteau
by King Richard on Jul 26, 2010 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions
Who says OBP is more important than SLG though?
They are pretty equal IMO. Runs on the board are runs on the board. Being on base doesnt equal runs necessarily.
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
Pretty much every study ever.
A point of OBP is worth around twice as much as a point of SLG.
by danmerqury on Jul 26, 2010 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
For wOBA, isn’t OBP 1.8 times SLG?
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Jul 26, 2010 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions
well alright then
I learned something out of this.
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
by PL78 on Jul 26, 2010 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
That's how Barton is 10 runs above average
With the bat this season despite hitting 5 homers and having a pedestrian .785 OPS.
OPS is really not a great measure. Triple slash is moderately useful for eyeballing.
Why don't you make like a tree, and get out of here.
by thelincolndude on Jul 26, 2010 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions
I cant believe this stuff still needs to be spelled out
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 26, 2010 12:36 PM PDT up reply actions
AN is an ongoing discussion.
As is all discussion about baseball generally. You can’t just assume that because you learned something a few years ago everyone else must be caught up by now and we can’t talk about it any more.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
We follow the A's, there was this book called Moneyball
its required reading.
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 26, 2010 4:43 PM PDT up reply actions
This is true. I think some of us need to realize that not everybody knows this
And not everybody is aware of things and is defiant on purpose.
Still, it would be nice if people would be more interested in asking “why is it that lots of people believe this?” instead of “This can’t possibly be true because I’ve never heard about it/don’t understand it.”
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 26, 2010 4:52 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm reading this thread
after much of it was written. And since this section is all pushed to the right, it’s hard to see what is responding to what.
But the last comment on the subject that I see is:
well alright then
I learned something out of this.
Learning is good.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Besides everybody, you mean?
Do you know why Mike Jacobs sucks even though he hit 30 homers one year?
Pam liked my old sig better.
this this this this and this.
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 26, 2010 12:36 PM PDT up reply actions
I'd probably take the 30 HR guy in that scenario.
Stats be damned. I dig the long ball.
"You see, in this world there's two kinds of people, my friend: Those with loaded guns and those who dig. You dig."
I won't hear of this.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
and I hate writing it
but its just true. On a team with zero power, 27th in the league in HR and with a truly anemic offense, wasting 1B on a guy who will be lucky to hit double figures in HR, who isn’t even at 3+ WAR yet does not compute. It never will. If I let myself believe all these flimsy arguments about why Barton belongs in Oakland, I will lose my own thoughts and feelings on the game and become a yes man. I aint goin out like that.
Look, its your opinion and I don’t support it, its no big deal, life goes on…we still like the same team.
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
Wow.
Isn’t even at 3+ WAR yet? He’s got 2.3. That puts him on pace for a 3.8 WAR season. No team would turn away a 24-year-old 3.8 WAR player.
barton's upside?
Barton seems a great deal more likely to improve slugging than either Sweeney or Suzuki. Suzuki gets talked up as having upside on slugging (my interpretation of the “20 HR” discussion) but his batting line has been remarkably steady at .720 obp and he is older. Sweeney seems to slap hit a lot. Barton squares up and looks in control and like he is learning. Why assume a 24 year old’s SLG stays static (directed at PL78)?
The Yankees would.
"You see, in this world there's two kinds of people, my friend: Those with loaded guns and those who dig. You dig."
Unless he played 1B and you already had one of 14 better hitters there.
Lets take defense out of it, Barton is the 15th best hitting 1B this year. We need hitting, we dont need “good” 1B “defense”.
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
Let's also take offense out of it.
Now how’s his running speed?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Take defense out of it? Why?
Now we’re back to square one, which is you baselessly asserting that 1B defense is meaningless.
If you go by WAR, Barton is 11th in the majors among 1Bman. And he’s only 24.
WAR's 1B defense weightings are comically inaccurate.
That is why you subtract defense from 1Bmen.
I mean Bartons cool and all, but I just think Carter is a potential upgrade, and we could get an awesome COF piece for Barton. If Carter bombs, then guess what? You can grab any warm body to replace him, and you counter whatever Barton’s doing with what our awesome new RF is doing in providing a massive upgrade over Swingles.
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
Comically inaccurate?
Trust me, those guys know what they’re doing. Those numbers aren’t drawn from a hat.
Yeah really.
It’s the gold gloves that appear to be drawn out of a hat.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
That may be, but the fact
remains that defensive WAR does not have a very good record of repeating from year to year.
No matter how smart the boys at FanGraphs are, there is some merit to wanting to discount defensive WAR when evaluating a player’s potential future value.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
inability to repeat itself doesn't matter
just like the inability to repeat clutch hits is both not a repeatable skill and at the same time has an impact on a teams value.
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 26, 2010 4:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Why doesn't it matter?
The discussion is about whether Barton is someone we should keep. Some have cited his WAR as evidence of his value. If part of that value is defensive value that may or may not come back next year, that makes a difference.
Personally, I think Barton is good and I want to keep him, but the idea that he is valuable for his defense is pretty much 0% of that for me.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
There are ways to get more true numbers
We have 284 starts at first which is pretty much two years with a UZR/150 of 6.0 and we can use his TotalZone numbers from 345 minor league games. These say +7 runs per 150 games.
So his UZR seems to be just right there. And even if you don’t trust it even then, regress it 50 percent and go with +3 runs.
But to completely ignore defense and compare him with Fielder, Howard or Cabrera only at batting doesn’t help to learn how valueable he is compared to other first basemen.
Disregarding the defensive side of WAR because of repeatability concerns is understandable and acceptable.
Disregarding the defensive side of WAR because you feel that it’s weighted too heavily is something else.
yeah thats a borderline Allstar player.
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 26, 2010 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions
And THERE'S your problem.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
That, I agree with.
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
In Jackson, Watsonn and Carson's defence, they've played
like 8 games between them for the A’s.
"You see, in this world there's two kinds of people, my friend: Those with loaded guns and those who dig. You dig."
Your guy Kouzmanoff would kill for a .785 OPS
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 26, 2010 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions
He will get there.
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
No he won't. Not this year.
We should make some sort of friendly wager on this.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 26, 2010 12:20 PM PDT up reply actions
His lifetime 2nd half OPS is 785
funnily enough.
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
Kouz has been much more valuable than you give him credit for though
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 26, 2010 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions
He's been so remarkably consistent so far in his career.
2.5 WAR in 2007, 2.7 in 2008, 2.7 in 2009, and 2.0 so far in 94 games, which would put him on pace for about 3 WAR. I just wish so much of it wasn’t predicated on UZR, which isn’t that consistent.
You mean they'd rather have a .700 OPS guy than a .785 OPS guy?
They must be awfully stupid, then.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
but there are so few chances compared with everywhere else
to the point where a great, run-producing hitter can easily erase any negative value with the glove. Take Miguel Cabrera, he’s awful at 1B, but his WAR is still way over 4 right now and will probably end up 6+ on the year. Barton’s WAR is 2.3 right now and he might be lucky to end up 4+ at the end of the year, and he’s having a great year at 1B “defense”. Do you really think Casey Kotchman has value? He doesnt, and his glove at 1B is the best in the game.
1B is weighted as such that defense isnt any kind of a deal, as long as the player is a beast on offense (like Carter appears to have the potential to be). Barton has a great bat for a non-1B position, hence the problem.
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
And what, exactly, does 1B defense entail?
UZR doesn’t factor in shitty throws from the rest of the infield that get dug out, or being pulled off the bag and still making a tag to get the out, or being able to do the friggin splits because you’re stretching so much and the baserunner is out because of that.
There is a lot more to 1B defense than just fielding grounders pulled down the line, so just using UZR to quantify defensive value at first is probably not doing justice to the position.
Pam liked my old sig better.
right
but what if you somehow devised a stat that incorporated that, and Barton scored really low?
Seeing how AZ is apparently broke and blowing up their team, they will probably trade LaRoche next. In that case, we should offer Barton+Sweeney+Braden for Justin Upton, who they probably wont be able to afford soon.
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
I am a big fan of consolidating talent
I feel that 1 Superstar is worth more than 3 middling players, since Roster spots are precious and limited as it is.
Well that trade doesnt have to happen this year.
it could happen in the offseason.
Also, why are people saying Taylor is anything but a MLB LF? That’s where I have him penciled in next year.
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
My dream team
1B: Carter
2B: Ellis
SS: Penny
3B: Kouz
C: Donaldson
LF: Taylor
CF: Raj
RF: Upton
DH: Cust
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
thats a pretty meh dream
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 26, 2010 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions
haha, my thought exactly.
Seems like when you’re making a dream-team, you don’t need to settle for someone like Ellis or Raj… Seems like a bit of a failure of imagination….
"Life is a horizontal fall" -Jean Cocteau
by King Richard on Jul 26, 2010 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions
I think it’s more of a realistic dream.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Jul 26, 2010 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions
Who has those?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I do
but really keeping rajai as a starter and trying to contend next year seems like a folly to me.
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 26, 2010 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions
I personally like Raj
But we can also use Crisp or Sweeney in CF too and I wouldnt be too mad. Yes, this is a realistic dream, only the sad reality is that there will be no Upton and Cust instead we will have Sweeney & Barton. BOR-RING.
A team with Upton, Carter, Taylor & Cust is “meh”? Where is your mind?
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
I'd be surprised if Sweeney is able to play a competent CF
after two knee surgeries
Pam liked my old sig better.
True
I’m just not a big Sweeney fan (at all) and really want RF to belong to Taylor next year :)
by bakerbeachboy on Jul 26, 2010 4:20 PM PDT up reply actions
but his elite fielding value is in his superior range
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 26, 2010 4:45 PM PDT up reply actions
do you think we will release him?
i think we should just say later days, maybe trade him to KC for a bag of baseballs.
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
Good question
My guess would be ‘no’, the A’s won’t release him. IIRC he is under club control for 3 more years. Couple that with the org’s man crush on Sweeney and I don’t think he’s going anywhere.
But as much as I dislike him, it’s mainly due to the fact that he was our starter in RF. I wouldn’t mind him as a 4th/5th OF if his knees allow when he comes back…we could do a lot worse with a reserve OF.
by bakerbeachboy on Jul 26, 2010 4:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah he seems like an awesome 4th OF
He doesnt deserve a regular job though. Late inning defensive replacement = perfect.
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
He's basically been a league average hitter despite his lack of home run power
IF he’s a plus plus defender, a 99 OPS+ is good enough. But if he’s not that defender anymore, his value is severely diminished.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 26, 2010 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions
That's right
But I am optimistic about regaining his defense. He has posted the great defensive numbers with chronic knee pain – not bad like this year but the pain was there. So I really hope the surgery can bring his defensive value back.
I really hope so Rio
That would make Sweeney a great option as a 4th/5th outfielder on our club.
by bakerbeachboy on Jul 26, 2010 5:23 PM PDT up reply actions
He has an average OBP so I don’t know about him being an excellent full-time leadoff hitter in right field.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Jul 26, 2010 10:30 PM PDT up reply actions
pac4eva5
I strongly disagree with you.
I wouldn’t want Sweeney as anything but a 4th/5th outfielder moving forward. And when he’s in the line-up giving one of our starters a day off I wouldn’t hit him anywhere but the 7, 8, or 9 hole.
by bakerbeachboy on Jul 27, 2010 1:36 AM PDT up reply actions
A stat that incorporated this would undoubtedly
make Barton score really high. You’re describing areas of particular strength.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Well, *if* that were true, then Barton would have less value
but what if you somehow devised a stat that incorporated that, and Barton scored really low?
However, I don’t have the ability to devise such a stat, but my lying eyes tell me that Barton is REALLY good at doing exactly that, which is probably helping Kouz’ 8.1 and Moneypenny’s 4.9 UZR ratings.
Pam liked my old sig better.
Prezactly and excisely.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I agree with you that Barton is good at doing all those things, but be careful here
Because you obviously see a lot more of Barton than anybody else, and you (and I) just don’t know how well the rest of the 1Bs in baseball are at those particular things.
In other words, it’s completely possible that Barton is the 20th best starting 1B at doing all that defensive stuff.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 26, 2010 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions
I know, and I don't count it in his favor.
But regardless, he’s probably going to be a 4 WAR player at age 24. That’s good.
Pam liked my old sig better.
But he is 5th best at what we already can measure
So even if he is not that good at scooping bad throws and making good tags, he is one of the best at first in the league.
Of course. I'm a Barton supporter.
Just saying that it’s not right to assign some sort of ranking to him based on the perception of those particular skills when we really don’t know how he measures up to others. He appears to be very good at it, but it’s possible that everyone else is, too.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 26, 2010 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah but Carter needs to show a heck of a bat in the Majors
to justify the move from the +5 defensive +15 batting Barton to a -5 defensive ? batting Carter.
That's crap.
Tell Adam Dunn that he can erase his negative defensive value with his bat. A run is a run is a run, no matter where it is.
Adam Dunn is a bad example
His UZR at 1B this year has been okay. It was when they made him play LF that your point makes sense.
Defense is team/pitching based anyway….I prefer to value things that I know for sure add runs to the board, like dingers.
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
In 2009, Dunn was -14 runs at 1B, in 67 games.
It’s clearly possible to lose your value if you’re a terrible 1Bman. Those guys you mentioned above (Konerko, Cabrera, Fielder) make up for their poor defense because they’re All-Star level hitters.
That was an outlier year though
Can I just say that deep down, I really hate talking about underdeveloped defensive metrics. I use them, but my god do they not come close to making sense.
In physical real-time gameplay, how does Adam Dunn lose 14 full runs at 1B? I understand that he can make an error and allow the runner to make it to 1B, but baseball is a team game, the pitcher can strand the runner, another defender can cover the poor one by making a great play (Byrnes/Kotsay anyone?). It just doesnt stand to reason to allow full runs to a singular defensive player, IMO.
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
by PL78 on Jul 26, 2010 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I was definitely not expecting this to be your issue with the metrics
If it doesn’t stand to reason (it does) to assign run values to defensive performance, it doesn’t make sense to do it for offense (outside of a home run, perhaps) either!
Just as a single doesn’t give a guy credit for a run (in sabermetric terms, not the runs scored stat), not making one play isn’t a full run allowed. It’s a small piece.
Theoretically it’s possible for all of a player’s missed opportunities to end up in 0 ACTUAL runs, but not penalizing him for his poor play means you’re likely giving him credit for the good play of others (as you say, pitchers stranding the runner, etc.).
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 26, 2010 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions
It's just that the defensive stats are too variable
Next year, once he has the requisite chances to make his UZR worth anything, then we’ll see. He could very well be 2 WAR next year from a big defensive dropoff. Or, he could be the same as he is this year, and have be a 4-5 WAR player.
Personally, I’d rather have the mashing COFers and leave Barton is where he is. But, if those guys aren’t coming/suck, then yeah, we have to consider trading Barton if a better guy who only plays 1B becomes available. Are you saying that, in a magical world where the Angels decide they don’t want Kendry Morales anymore, we wouldn’t take him if we had no decent power?
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!
by cuppingmaster on Jul 26, 2010 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions
The problem lies with Chris Carter too
and you know what? I’d be down to trade him as well. Either him or Barton has to go, IMO.
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
In your scenario, we need power and less defense
And Carter fits the bill. Who would you trade/package him to get?
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!
by cuppingmaster on Jul 26, 2010 12:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Oh, there ARE plenty of issues to take with the metrics
And the numbers being too variable (this is actually a flaw in measuring defense because of the sample size issues) is a pretty good issue to have with them.
I was just surprised that assigning a run value to events was the issue. I had never really heard that before, especially from someone (PL78) who isn’t anti-sabermetrics and advanced metrics in general.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 26, 2010 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Its something that doesnt stick with me
and hearing that Dunn “gave up” 14 runs conjures up an image of him fielding a grounder, then running into the outfield with it and curling up in the fetal position while the runner scores an inside the park HR. 14 times.
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
In that case, no defender could ever give up a run.
The run values are based on run value averages, much like wOBA or WPA is. It’s not triggered every time Adam Dunn actually allows a run to score.
It's the same with offense
Even if you don’t trust wOBA, the events that produce the BA, OBP and SLG are all fractions of runs, and in your head you apply values for them. A higher average means more hits and in the end more runs scored. A higher slugging means more bases on the hits and in the end more runs scored.
You don’t rank players by runs scored or RBIs, you do it by hits and walks.
I mean, I agree that maybe runs don't directly translate to wins
(too many other variables), but there must be a way to measure defensive stats. When Adam Dunn doesn’t get a ball to his right and that lets the inning continue with 2 outs, then, in theory, it’s his fault those runs scored. Sometimes, he is going to make the scoop (Giambi was pretty good at it, actually) and it’ll save runs. It’s just that, in certain scenarios, a player’s lack of range causes more runs to score indirectly.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!
by cuppingmaster on Jul 26, 2010 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions
If we traded for a guy that did that 14 times a year,
we would have 1000 new season ticket holders. Everyone loves watching a circus of failure.
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Jul 26, 2010 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions
Because it's not him "giving up" 14 runs. It's him making so many fewer plays than average that his defense ultimately led to 14 runs
And that’s NOT actual runs scored. That’s the cumulative run values of all the plays he makes doesn’t make.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 26, 2010 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions
I actually saw the game where he did that.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Of course,
We should just get Cabrera then right?
and Barton defense is hampered by error, not range
which makes me think with a little more experience he will only improve on defense
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes
So experience will make me stop yelling "Stop dropping fly balls, Daric!!!" at the computer screen?
Sweet.
"You see, in this world there's two kinds of people, my friend: Those with loaded guns and those who dig. You dig."
that's the hope
(the foul ball thing, not the yelling. I think that is endearing.)
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes
The number of times this needs to be said around here is enough to make a poster blue in the face
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 26, 2010 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions
Logging onto this site and seeing this huge discussion about 1B defense surprised me.
All I said was that Barton had better defense than Loney and then PL78 goes and tears down this straw man of me saying first base is really important or whatever.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jul 26, 2010 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions
I was more talking about my new sig line being a good hitter and being a power hitter aren't the same thing. We need good hitters, power is irrelevant if they are good hitters.
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 26, 2010 4:47 PM PDT up reply actions
The issue with that statement is
“Good” is subjective. Barton is not a good hitter compared with Pujols or Morneau. He is a good hitter compared with Betancort or Gross. But where is the line drawn? Each person draws it themselves. There is no definitive line though, so that statement is in itself irrelevant.
“Power” is less so. A .500 SLG means you hit the ball for extra bases pretty often, extra base hits more often result in runs than singles and walks. HR are an even more black & white example.
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
"Good" is not subjective. Not really, anyway.
If we can agree on a metric to use, it’s really damn easy to rank them and decide that a certain percentile is “good.”
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 26, 2010 5:00 PM PDT up reply actions
This is arguably the core tenet of
today’s sabermetric community:
“Good” is not subjective.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
I think it's the core tenet of, well, sports.
What makes a player (or team or whatever) good can be subjective. But I think it’s really, really easy, regardless of sport, to decide on “Good” in any area of discussion. This is especially true when it comes to more quantifiable areas of the games we play.
We know, by nature of keeping track of data, what a good batting average is. We know how many points scored in a game is good for a basketball player. We know what save percentage is good for a goalie. We don’t necessarily know what all those things mean in a larger context (and it doesn’t necessarily mean the player is good), but I think it’s really tough to argue that good is subjective.
This is definitely true when we all agree on a particular metric. PL78 uses WAR in his own arguments. We know what a good WAR is. One can dispute the ingredients. I don’t see how one can dispute that 2 WAR is about average, 0 WAR is replacement (by definition), 4-5 WAR is very good. Anything else is spectacular. I mean, we can put different words in place of “very good” and “Spectacular” but I just don’t see how somebody could say “Well, 5 WAR isn’t good” (unless you’re disputing what makes up the metric, but that’s a completely, entirely different argument).
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 26, 2010 7:49 PM PDT up reply actions
If we're going by slugging percentage to quantify power, then "good" is just as objective.
wOBA tells us exactly who is good, and by how much.
Fine. Find a way to get Pujols or Morneau on the team, then.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jul 26, 2010 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions
you realize that wOBA takes that into account right?
or is your head just that far in the sand?
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 27, 2010 9:57 AM PDT up reply actions
what is the wOBA cut off number for "good"
I’d love to see it.
“Good” is also relative…..
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
.330 is about league average.
Barton’s around .352.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jul 27, 2010 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions
this
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 27, 2010 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions
thats pretty good
Im glad I never said Barton stinks at baseball, I’d have been wrong.
Its a shame we are 27th in HR and our 1B has 5 though….
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
and our whole outfield has 8.
and the power hitting 1B on the market are going to cost a TON to acquire.
and Philly has been tryin to move Jayson Werth, but I guess he’s no good cause he only has 13 homers.
Pam liked my old sig better.
This is incorrect.
HRs hit by Oakland outfielders this year:
Buck = 1
Carson = 1
Crisp = 3
Davis = 4
Gross = 1
Patterson = 3*
Sweeney = 1
Watson = 1
(Fox) = 1*
(Rosales) = 1*
TOTAL = 17
* Patterson hit four HRs as an Athletic, but one was as a pinch-hitter. Fox hit two HRs as an Athletic; one was when he was playing LF. Rosales has hit seven HRs as an Athletic; one was when he was playing LF.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
I was talking about the players currently on the roster.
and I don’t count Rosales as an outfielder.
Pam liked my old sig better.
OK, but that's still 10.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
you said it like fifteen times.
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 27, 2010 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions
League average for 1Bmen is .366
barton…is lower than that?
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
Where did you get that number?
Fangraphs has Barton at 11.0 runs above league average. A league average 1Bman, given Barton’s playing time, would have only contributed 7.2. Barton is above average, even among 1Bman.
put it this way
Barton’s wOBA has produced 11 batting runs. The “cost” of playing 1b is 7.2 runs
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 27, 2010 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions
that should finish with... so far.
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 27, 2010 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions
The same can be said of Sweeney
"Life is tough .... It's even tougher if you're stupid." - John Wayne
Sweeney is an average hitter.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Jul 26, 2010 8:32 PM PDT up reply actions
Sweeney's a consistent ~100 wRC+ guy, never putting up higher than 104 wRC+
Barton’s already putting up a 121 wRC+ at age 24.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jul 27, 2010 6:49 AM PDT up reply actions
No one really likes a first baseman that can't hit for power though.
I think that ship has sailed on Barton ever being able to develop that rare trait.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
Nice looking lineup.
But I’m not convinced by Taylor in CF. Plus, I think Crawford sounds great, but I think he would be tough to bring to Oakland. If Carter can play LF I think he should start there.
Is it crazy to suggest using that free agent money to go after Cliff Lee? The questionable health of Anderson and Braden tempt me toward Lee.
I actually died a little during the Swisher years.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 26, 2010 4:36 AM PDT up reply actions
Man it would be great if we went after Lee, although the rangers seem to want him throwing CGs every start, might wear out his arm for next year.
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
Not a bad move if you're Texas
They have very little chance to sign him anyway.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 26, 2010 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions
Oh god yeah. I'd run him into the ground then wish him well in New York next year.
"You see, in this world there's two kinds of people, my friend: Those with loaded guns and those who dig. You dig."
I don't see how Crawford wouldn't hit leadoff
it’s one of our biggest problems this year.
Sold! Crawford in LF and Werth in RF. I Don't Care in CF.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 25, 2010 9:45 PM PDT up reply actions
i heard somewhere that the phillies want a #4 starter for him
if that’s really the case, gio for werth anyone?
He's a free agent after the season. Gio for a half season of Werth is a lot
Especially considering they’re behind the Rangers and the Haren-led Angels now.
Maybe he meant that instead of money,
Werth would accept Gio instead.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 25, 2010 10:15 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
lol bad images.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
I'd do Braden for Werth.
We would get a couple of compensation picks at the end of the year too
Thats a great deal.
I think because of the draft picks, we would have to throw in a prospect though.
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
Next years Draft is supposed to be super good too.
"Carter's 25-game hitting streak isn't any normal streak. He's 46 for 97 (.474 average) during the run, adding 16 walks and compiling 81 total bases in the process. I'm out of superlatives for what he's doing." - Kevin Goldstein
I would rather acquire an impact bat via trade.
If the A’s were to acquire a veteran starter a la Jorge De La Rosa, they could create a very enticing trade package from whatever is left over. If you were a GM and the A’s called with a package of Mazzaro/Braden/Gonzalez/Ross, Josh Donaldson, Henry Rodriguez and Cardenas, you would listen. I don’t like making proposals like this because I’m not good at it, but I think it should be enough to net Shin Soo Choo.
I know this isn’t really a popular sentiment around here. A’s fans are used to winning, and many have grown tired of the A’s middle-of-the-pack ways the past few years, but I actually wouldn’t mind sending Suzuki to the Red Sox for an MLB ready guy like Kalish and watching a whole team of youngsters play together. Donaldson, Barton, Cardenas/Weeks, Pennington, Kouzmanoff/Cardenas, Taylor, Carter and Kalish would be fun to watch in a few years.
Thing is, if you sign De La Rosa,
there is no one left over. It’s a 5-man rotation, yes, but you actually need about 8 SPs to get through a season. Every time.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
De La Rosa, Cahill, Anderson, Mazzaro, Gonzalez, Braden, Ross, Outman and Mortensen makes nine.
Mortensen isn’t great, but at the eighth spot in the depth chart, he’s the emergency emergency emergency guy.
Seriously that's plenty
Everyone knows you need more than 5 starters but you don’t need them all to be stars.
Remember in March when our bullpen was going to be
perhaps the best in baseball?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Depth in pitching is essential.
Your #8 starter and your #7 reliever have a strange way of becoming your #4 starter and your set-up guy.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
At some point you have to draw a line
The A’s are a small market team, they don’t have the resources to go out and make sure they have an 8th and 9th best starter who are qualified #4’s. That’s just a luxury the A’s don’t have, no team in baseball worries about upgrading their 8th starter in the off-season I don’t think that’s the type of undervalued item the A’s need to be focusing on.
The A's do just that, actually.
Why do you think Beane didn’t deal Mazzaro for hitting help? You don’t ever build a team with 5 starters. Not if you want to win anything.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I'm guessing the lack of a deal for Mazzaro had a lot more to do with
his value as a young starter who was under team control for a long time not because he was needed this year as a 7th or 8th starter. You use scrap heap guys like Tomko and Mortensen to be shuttle guys. Placing a higher priority on an 8th starter than a hitter who can start for your team would be a completely ridiculous move.
Also, we aren't exactly set up to win anything this year
with our offense.
"Every year someone will win the World Series. Other things are more, shall we say, unusual." - EN
Relievers and starters are two completely different monsters.
Relief pitchers are the most inconsistent players year in and year out because they usually have bad mechanics and no durability. If they were durable and had good, repeatable mechanics, they’d be starting pitchers. Bullpens being decimated by ineffectiveness is more common than the same happening to an entire starting pitching staff.
I didn't mean 9 bodies, I meant good and healthy
Outman is a total question mark, Ross is neither ready nor any sure thing, Mortensen sucks. So when, say, Braden and Anderson go down, what will you have? Remember that this season, Mazzaro was exactly the A’s #7 starter.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Please show me a team that has good and healthy #6-#9 starters
Yankees #6 is Sergio Mitre. Mortenson, Ross, Outman and some minor league FA veteran is perfectly reasonable pitching depth for 2011.
"Rollins helps them with the small ball when he's not in the lineup." - Joe Morgan
this
Tampa Bay, yeah, but they will probably trade some of that depth to get some offense to throttle the AL East.
"Swingles is Day to Day: IE: He’s being turned into a zombie, but they don’t want the world to know for another 5 days (retroactive)" ~Zonis
They also have lots of hitting and lots of money
What I’m saying is that the A’s utterly depend on having a good #4 and #5 starter, which many teams don’t (St. Louis, for example, relies heavily on two really good SPs). The A’s can’t afford to become a team with 3 good SPs; they need to have 5 at all times.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
But it doesn't help you to have a potential 2 WAR starter in AAA
because for half the year the five starters are more or less injury-free.
I think Ross, Mortensen and a FA vet like Tomko are replacement level or maybe above and thats all what you need from #6-8 starters.
Also I think the A’s need Anderson, Cahill, Gio and the top fielders to stay on the field to be a real contender. If one of the top guys is out for the year you have to make a trade or plan for 2012.
Actually it does in that he gains another year of service time
I’m just cautioning that you’re setting yourself up, in a contending year, to find yourself with a rotation of Cahill, Gio, Mazzaro, Mortensen, Tomko when stuff happens like it did this year — Braden, Anderson, and Outman on the shelf.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Yeah I understand your point
I just think that as a small market team you have no chance if more than one of your top performers go down. Then you have to hope for AAA-help, trade for solid middle of rotation guy or call it a year.
Or fire your training staff.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I love to bag on Geren, but at this point there's no way he's hurting us as much as the trainers are.
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Jul 26, 2010 10:23 AM PDT up reply actions
If such a team doesn't exist, then we need to invent one.
Because pitching is this team’s only potential serious edge. We have five good starters going into next season. We have Outman and Ross. Mortensen could still develop into a solid #8 the way Mazzaro developed into a solid #5 this season. And then we have Generic Decent-When-Healthy Veteran Starter (de la Rosa, another year of Sheets, another year of Duke, etc.), which makes nine.
I’m happy with that pitching staff, because our offense isn’t going to be what puts us over the top for quite a few years, if even then.
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Jul 26, 2010 5:47 PM PDT up reply actions
That team has Carter and a bunch of mediocrity. It also has no CF.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 25, 2010 9:46 PM PDT up reply actions
They also need to replace Crawford and Pena for the 2011 season.
Zooks is a 2.5 war player… Jennings should be better than that.
by Brett Narloch on Jul 25, 2010 10:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Eh, he's more than a 2.5 WAR player if you think he's an average defender.
FanGraphs doesn’t like to grade defense for catchers because the UZR metric doesn’t really work for them. Most people agree he’s a pretty good defender. He’s got 1.5 WAR in 70 games so far this year. He’s probably more like a 3.5 to 4 WAR player over a full season.
I can see why this deal wouldn’t get past the phone call stage, but it’s an interesting proposition. The A’s could give up a player like Conor Jackson if the Rays demanded help with LF. When the article came out that the Red Sox coveted Suzuki, most ANers said something like, “Only if Boston would let the A’s handpick a prospect or two, with no one untouchable.” Same goes with the Rays, I suppose.
I think the Rays might trade Upton before Jennings and I don't think they'd do it for Suzuki
Jaso’s also having a pretty good year.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 26, 2010 4:24 AM PDT up reply actions
Ken Rosenthal said they'd prefer to use prospects than big leaguers
in this article. The more I think about it, though, the more this would be like the Braves trading Heyward for Suzuki. Jennings is too damn good.
Jennings is not even close to Heyward
Heyward, Strasburg, etc. are in totally a different league. Desmond has way more bust risk than Heyward did, and Desmond doesn’t really have that much to begin with.
"Swingles is Day to Day: IE: He’s being turned into a zombie, but they don’t want the world to know for another 5 days (retroactive)" ~Zonis
I did earlier
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 26, 2010 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Sign Jason Werth and Ill be happy.
"Carter's 25-game hitting streak isn't any normal streak. He's 46 for 97 (.474 average) during the run, adding 16 walks and compiling 81 total bases in the process. I'm out of superlatives for what he's doing." - Kevin Goldstein
Werth has a lot of potential to be exactly the kind of FA
you want to avoid: A guy who is priced according to what he HAS done, but will save his worst years for you. Chone Figgins appears to be like that.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Werth went to high school about ten minutes from my house and played for a rival team.
He’s an asshole. He’d probably help the A’s, but I wouldn’t be able to root for him.
Dude, I'd root for Charles Manson if he could help the A's win.
sock puppets have never successfully defended castles, except when working with squirrels, which would never happen because squirrels know better than to trust sock puppets, except when their nipples have magical powers. -nm
by Leopold Bloom on Jul 26, 2010 10:49 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm still happy we had Canseco during his good years
and the available evidence indicates that he’s an awful human being.
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Jul 27, 2010 4:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Totally agree Nico
I REALLY hope the A’s don’t sign Werth in the off-season.
by bakerbeachboy on Jul 25, 2010 10:27 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah I really hope we keep Sweeney & Gross
they are such awesome, feared, RF mashers. :|
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
Not wanting Werth doesn't mean I'd want Sweeney and/or Gross in RF.
Just because he’s one of the “best” options in a weak free agent class doesn’t mean the A’s should sign him IMO. RF should go to Taylor.
by bakerbeachboy on Jul 26, 2010 12:35 AM PDT up reply actions
fair enough
but what about this season?
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
That's a tough call
I definitely wouldn’t trade for a 2 month rental of Werth.
This season has been a lot of fun. We’re hanging around just enough that we still have a shot at making the playoffs (especially considering the 13 games we have remaining against Texas). However, I’d still prefer to keep next year as the target season as “all systems go”. In that regard, maybe hope that players get healthy (not likely unfortunately) so we can have an outfield of Crisp (CF), Davis (RF), and Jackson (LF). Throw Buck in the mix as well since he’s making his way back to the big league team.
Taylor could come up in September and provide a spark, but honestly I wouldn’t mind if he played this whole year at AAA and started next year with the A’s.
by bakerbeachboy on Jul 26, 2010 10:07 AM PDT up reply actions
All good, except for the Buck comment
I’d be surprised to see him back and contributing anything meaningful.
"Every year someone will win the World Series. Other things are more, shall we say, unusual." - EN
Me too...unfortunately
But…I think he’s a better option than Carson, Watson, or Gross which is somewhat depressing.
by bakerbeachboy on Jul 26, 2010 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm pretty sure he's back when his rehab assignment runs out
Then he can get a month of playing time or maybe two since the beginning of the wasn’t bad for him. And by that the A’s save an option so they can send him down next year if Carter/Taylor are ready come spring.
Rotoworld says the following about Buck:
Travis Buck (oblique) is expected to rejoin the A’s later this week.
A’s manager Bob Geren said last week that Buck will play a minimum of seven rehab games at Triple-A Sacramento before rejoining the big league club.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Jul 26, 2010 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions
goddamnit.
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
How is that a bad thing? There's not an OF they have who is better.
Crisp might be very slightly better if he’s still playing well defensively, but that’s it.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 26, 2010 5:29 PM PDT up reply actions
I'll take Rajai over Travis Buck every time.
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Jul 26, 2010 5:49 PM PDT up reply actions
If Buck actually turned out to be player everyone thought he would be
And could stay in one freaking piece, then you would be right. Rajai has some dings here and there, and is older, but you know his game already.
The devil that you know…
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!
by cuppingmaster on Jul 26, 2010 5:50 PM PDT up reply actions
Chicken?
sock puppets have never successfully defended castles, except when working with squirrels, which would never happen because squirrels know better than to trust sock puppets, except when their nipples have magical powers. -nm
by Leopold Bloom on Jul 26, 2010 10:50 PM PDT up reply actions
Not even the devil you know.
He’s not a devil to me, because he’s not a bad player. I think he’s a good player when he gets to play consistently, which I think is true of almost any good player.
So yeah. I know his game, and I like a lot of it. I like the speed and the way he disrupts a pitcher and a defense. I like that when he’s on base, he’s doing everything in his power—which is a lot—to get himself to second and/or third. I like that when he gets consistent playing time, he can hit for average, because hitting is a piece of the OBP puzzle.
Obviously, I wish he could learn to be more patient at the plate. I think that is the single major deficiency he has as an all-around ballplayer.
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Jul 27, 2010 3:21 PM PDT up reply actions
What's so great about Taylor that would make him an obstacle to Werth?
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 26, 2010 7:53 AM PDT up reply actions
Let me first say
I’m not expecting Taylor to put up a Werth-type season of the past few years his first season in the big leagues. But he is an important piece to the future of the club (especially offensively) and needs to have an opportunity to show what he can do.
That being said, the obstacle would be that Taylor will either be playing in RF or LF at the major league level. I would prefer Carter to be our LF next year so that Barton can stay at 1B. That would leave RF as Taylor’s only defensive option (which is good considering he’s played there more than any other position this season).
by bakerbeachboy on Jul 26, 2010 10:15 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah
That would be my hope.
As I said earlier, I would love if Cardenas forces his way onto the big league roster next spring so he can be our starting 2B. Adding him, Carter, and Taylor to the roster would definitely make our offense at least intriguing next season – even taking into account the fact that there will be some growing pains for these guys.
There’s just not really anyone I’d want to pay big FA dollars to for an extended period in this years class. If Cust got picked up by another team and we needed a DH I wouldn’t mind going after Konerko if he would sign on as a DH (with the occasional start at 1B to give Barton a rest). It’d depend on the price though (obviously)…what do you guys think he’ll be looking for in his next contract?
And as much as I’m sick and tired of signing players off the scrap heap and hoping they get through the season without a trip to the DL, if (and it’s a big if) Brandon Webb is declared healthy this off-season, I wouldn’t mind signing him to a 1 year deal.
That being said, this would be my optimal line-up using internal options (if Cardenas forces his hand)…
SS – Cliff Pennington
1B – Daric Barton
DH – Jack Cust
C – Kurt Suzuki
3B – Kevin Kouzmanoff
LF – Chris Carter
RF – Michael Taylor
2B – Adrian Cardenas
CF – Rajai Davis
I wouldn’t put the kids (Carter, Taylor, Cardenas) in the 3,4,5 spots – at least for the first couple months – so that they don’t feel pressure to be THE guy that the offense revolves around.
by bakerbeachboy on Jul 26, 2010 4:12 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm not sure when
But somewhere along the line Taylor suddenly became a mediocre prospect.
I mean, a couple months in AAA and everyone writes him off as average at best? Remember at the beginning of the year when he and Carter were supposed to be our 3-4 guys?
And this myth that Carter is some sure thing is even more mind-boggling.
I don’t see why Taylor can’t be an above-average RF’er for a long long time.
"The A's have to be setting some record this year for simultaneously maximizing team quality and player anonymity. I guess that’s sort of their thing though." - Luke in MN
Before this season, I thought Figgins would be a good signing for the A's.
Boy was I wrong about that.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
I'm not sure you'll end up being wrong...
…long term.
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 26, 2010 5:32 AM PDT up reply actions
I agree
Those numbers are waaaay off base. He is 32, but that doesn’t necessarilyl mean cratering happens. I strongly think he’s hiding some sort of injury. I also think he rebounds.
"Swingles is Day to Day: IE: He’s being turned into a zombie, but they don’t want the world to know for another 5 days (retroactive)" ~Zonis
If he's a 32 year old who's hiding an injury that's lasted for over half a season
and has turned him into a vortex of suckitude, then I think he’s a candidate not to rebound.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
I agree with this
To rephrase, I mean either/or. Either its an injury, or he rebounds. It might be the injury.
"Swingles is Day to Day: IE: He’s being turned into a zombie, but they don’t want the world to know for another 5 days (retroactive)" ~Zonis
Oh, okay
Though even in the healthy scenario, there’s a big question about how far he’ll rebound. I doubt that Figgins is suddenly one of the worst hitters in baseball. But he could rebound a fair way and still be an inadequate 3B whose performance will get worse as he approaches his mid-30s.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
I however was not wrong on that... at all.
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 26, 2010 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions
And yet, you're the guy who thinks Z is good!
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
he had the money to burn
its the one move I didn’t like, but it made sense with his team
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 26, 2010 4:48 PM PDT up reply actions
I thought I had read on LL
somewhere that most of his peripheral numbers (BB%, LD%, etc.) were similar to his career numbers, suggesting that he might be in line to improve, but it’s been “impressive” how he’s managed to suck through July.
Yeah I agree with Nico.
Werth is too much to risk.
Why is he more of a risk that any other bat we could sign?
"Carter's 25-game hitting streak isn't any normal streak. He's 46 for 97 (.474 average) during the run, adding 16 walks and compiling 81 total bases in the process. I'm out of superlatives for what he's doing." - Kevin Goldstein
Partly his age, partly his value relying some on speed,
partly his stats being buoyed by park effects. As a fast COFer who can play good defense and steal 20 bases, he’s one kind of talent. As an average defender with average speed, he’s another. He is likely at his peak, heading downwards, which not every FA is.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
If we can land his for a 3 -4 year deal I think we almost have to.
He has an average OPS+ of 126 over the past 4 years. Thats park and league adjusted. Hes the big bat we need. He didnt play in over 105 games till he was 28 years old. So his age isnt that big of a concern to me.
"Carter's 25-game hitting streak isn't any normal streak. He's 46 for 97 (.474 average) during the run, adding 16 walks and compiling 81 total bases in the process. I'm out of superlatives for what he's doing." - Kevin Goldstein
He is good, I'll grant you that,
and a lot better than all the crap the A’s are putting out there. Sure, I’d love to have him on a 3-year deal (his apparent a-holiness notwithstanding — I’ll deal with it). I just think he probably has more bust potential than most FAs who are worth (werth) coveting.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Its just kinda frustrating cause how long have we been looking for
a 25+ HR a year RH bat. Now here he is when our payroll is super low and we have over 20 mil coming off the books. Its a no brained to me. If we sign him. Cust keeps it up to a tune of ~850OPS Thats a good RH/LF combo batting 3rd/4th. Add in Taylor and Carter and suddenly you have a beast middle of the order.
"Carter's 25-game hitting streak isn't any normal streak. He's 46 for 97 (.474 average) during the run, adding 16 walks and compiling 81 total bases in the process. I'm out of superlatives for what he's doing." - Kevin Goldstein
RH/LF combo*
"Carter's 25-game hitting streak isn't any normal streak. He's 46 for 97 (.474 average) during the run, adding 16 walks and compiling 81 total bases in the process. I'm out of superlatives for what he's doing." - Kevin Goldstein
Hey, I wouldn't complain --
I’m in the camp that rolled his eyes when the A’s got Conor Jackson, because while he’s a solid player the last thing the A’s need to do is fill the COF with more 1-15 HR guys. As a placeholder he’s an upgrade, but please go get me someone with real power at that position.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I liked the Jackson deal...
I mean I didnt think he was the answer or anything. But Beane haw a chance to make the team better for an unproven minor league reliever. So he did it. Beane just couldnt resist Jacksons on base skills.
"Carter's 25-game hitting streak isn't any normal streak. He's 46 for 97 (.474 average) during the run, adding 16 walks and compiling 81 total bases in the process. I'm out of superlatives for what he's doing." - Kevin Goldstein
As long as it's a stop gap I'm fine with it
If it replaces adding someone with 25HR power, I’m not.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Well since hes only got 1 year left of control
Hes a stop gap.
"Carter's 25-game hitting streak isn't any normal streak. He's 46 for 97 (.474 average) during the run, adding 16 walks and compiling 81 total bases in the process. I'm out of superlatives for what he's doing." - Kevin Goldstein
I mean come April, 2011,
I don’t want to see an OF in which Conor Jackson, he of the “career high 15 HRs and that was 3 years ago” is our leading power hitter in the OF.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Conor is a quality role player.
Yeah but hes not “The Guy” we need. He certainly better than Gross/Carson/Watson/Buck tho.
"Carter's 25-game hitting streak isn't any normal streak. He's 46 for 97 (.474 average) during the run, adding 16 walks and compiling 81 total bases in the process. I'm out of superlatives for what he's doing." - Kevin Goldstein
Why have I not heard Corey Hart's name in any of these talks?
Is it because he is hurt?
"Like I said, it’s like me giving you a high-five and chest bump after you hit for the cycle against the kid in the wheelchair." Vacafan on May 14, 2010
I feel like he would fizzle out hard in the Coli.
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Jul 26, 2010 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions
He only had a .335 OBP in 2009 and he has a .349 OBP this year. He’s all about the power and he wouldn’t be slugging .540 out here.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Jul 26, 2010 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions
If we canr get Werth...
And Hart comes cheap… go for it.
"Carter's 25-game hitting streak isn't any normal streak. He's 46 for 97 (.474 average) during the run, adding 16 walks and compiling 81 total bases in the process. I'm out of superlatives for what he's doing." - Kevin Goldstein
I think the long years of having no money have convinced us that any decent-to-average player is worth trading for if he's cheap.
I’m not sure a deal for Hart makes sense even if he is cheap. He’s not going to do well in the Coliseum. Realistically, the cheapest he’d come is a couple of really good prospects, since he’s posting inflated numbers right now and the Brewers would probably think they could drive a hard bargain on him, and I’m not sure we want to mortgage the future for a bat that will fizzle on us.
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Jul 26, 2010 5:55 PM PDT up reply actions
I was talking about signing.
Not trading for.
"Carter's 25-game hitting streak isn't any normal streak. He's 46 for 97 (.474 average) during the run, adding 16 walks and compiling 81 total bases in the process. I'm out of superlatives for what he's doing." - Kevin Goldstein
Hmmm...
Yeah, I guess I could go either way on that. I think if you’re going to try and build a team around three to four cheap power bats (Harts and Custs), then it’s worth a shot. But it isn’t worth a shot to me if you pick up Hart and he becomes, along with Cust, your only potential power threat. Hart has too much potential to fizzle.
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Jul 27, 2010 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions
and he is getting old
I think he’ll be 32 or 33 next year.
Hes 31 this year.
"Carter's 25-game hitting streak isn't any normal streak. He's 46 for 97 (.474 average) during the run, adding 16 walks and compiling 81 total bases in the process. I'm out of superlatives for what he's doing." - Kevin Goldstein
Great post Zonis!
I definitely don’t think Ellis’ option should be picked up (or Crisp’s for that matter). I don’t know why Cardenas isn’t playing in Sacramento again…he’s shown he can dominate AA and should have a chance to get a handle on AAA before next year since he could be an important piece on next years team. To me Cardenas is a 2B, not a 3B and hopefully him or Weeks will turn out to be the 2B for the next great A’s team(s).
Michael Taylor is not a CF for a contending A’s team IMO, but slot him in at RF next year. 2011 is time for him to show what he can do at the major league level considering his age next year (25) and the hype he’s received as a prospect.
I think we absolutely need to keep Barton. He’s turned himself into a defensive asset at 1B and puts together a quality at-bat almost every time.
I don’t think we should move Carter between various positions…let him focus on one position defensively (my preference would be LF). The less distraction the better so he can settle in on the offensive side of the ball where his main value lies.
The only players I would consider untouchable and players we need to build around moving forward are Anderson, Cahill, Gonzalez, Barton, Pennington, Carter, and Taylor.
Anyone else would be game for a trade package, even Suzuki if someone will pay a good price for him. I’d be fine with Donaldson and Powell behind the plate next year.
Isn't a bit odd that the A's have a hole in LF
and Carter is a likely DH sooner rather than later, yet the only place he has really played a lot is 1B, where the A’s actually have a long-term solution?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I find it very odd
The idea was to have Carter play in LF this winter, and then he got sick and missed a lot of winter ball, and then…?
Yeah it is
It’s weird how they play him at 1B all the time, and then once of every few weeks he’ll play left. Why not just leave him in left? Barton has 1B locked down pretty much. Barton is what, 24? He’s only going to get better. Carter is either the long term DH or LF. They really need to play him in LF full time.
by duballers23 on Jul 25, 2010 10:41 PM PDT up reply actions
Unless he's Cust bad in LF.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 26, 2010 4:25 AM PDT up reply actions
They haven't tried to find out.
It’s Sacramento, they should give him a full season of awfulness in the outfield before they draw any conclusions. How is he supposed to grow if he never plays there?
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
No I'm pretty sure he's better
He is -5 runs per 150 games over his hole career in the minors (totalzone numbers). A move to left field should cost him about 5 runs, so -10 runs in LF are what I would expenct out of the numbers. Add in that he is pretty athletic for his size and maybe has hard hands which drop his defensive value at first, I think he might even be better than -10. Cust is a career -20 to -22 runs in LF/RF.
Even if he IS Cust bad in left
They still need to play him there for now. Guys don’t typically get a lot better defensively when it’s their usual position, but they do if they’re learning a new one. Really, he’s still learning the outfield.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 26, 2010 11:25 AM PDT up reply actions
I guess the main thing I’m hoping is that Barton’s place on this team isn’t affected by Carter’s arrival…and I can’t wait for Carter to arrive, i just want him AND Barton to be able to play in the field at the same time.
by bakerbeachboy on Jul 26, 2010 12:41 AM PDT up reply actions
If only the AL had a position where good hitters could play and not have to take the field.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 26, 2010 4:26 AM PDT up reply actions
diddley-oot diddley-oot diddley-oot (cue Wayne's World style transition) diddley-oot diddley-oot diddley-oot
“The average fan comes to the park to see action, home runs. He doesn’t come to see a one-, two-, three- or four-hit game. I can’t think of anything more boring than to see a pitcher come up, when the average pitcher can’t hit my grandmother. Let’s have a permanent pinch-hitter for the pitcher.” – A’s Owner Charlie O. Finley
by LoneStranger on Jul 26, 2010 9:53 AM PDT up reply actions
Carter is 23 and athletic. Even though he hasn’t proved to be a league average defender, it’s waaay too early to make him a full-time DH IMO.
by bakerbeachboy on Jul 26, 2010 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions
Do you guys think Weeks could eventually be moved to centerfield if Cardenas locks down second? I think he might have played it in college, and probably has solid range out there. He doesn’t have a very strong arm, but his speed to chase down the ball may make up for it. I think Weeks is to valuable not to be in the lineup in the future. He’s very good at getting on and has the speed to snatch some bags.
I'd be thrilled if Cardenas could "lock down" 2B but I don't think he's good enough defensively
I like Rosales though.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 26, 2010 4:27 AM PDT up reply actions
I'm with Nico on this one...
Rosales would be “exposed” if he’s a full-time player. His value lies in being a super-utility guy (and a really good one at that).
by bakerbeachboy on Jul 26, 2010 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions
Rosales = Scoot part 2.
He your insurance in case Bobby Crosby returns from purgatory (the Pirates) to take revenge on the A’s by giving Mark Ellis another career ending injury.
by Mr. Clean Sweep on Jul 27, 2010 1:00 AM PDT up reply actions
Oh dear god
Mr. Clean Sweep…you just made me adore this season with your reminder of BoCro (no matter what place we finish in the division)…not having to watch Bobby Crosby in an A’s uniform has been absolutely wonderful!
by bakerbeachboy on Jul 27, 2010 1:41 AM PDT up reply actions
Cardenas speed
He has stolen a total of 10 bases in the last 2 years. And he was caught 8 times, which is about -2 runs of basestealing value
He was talking abou Weeks' speed, not Cardenas'.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Does Beane control the farm system roster moves?
It seems like their are a lot of guys that should be promoted. Green, Mitchell, and possibly Parker, should be about ready to go to Midland. Cardenas and Brown should be back in Sacramento. I know that they don’t want to rush guys, but you also don’t want to stall their progression. Once they show that they have pretty much mastered hitting in their level, then they should be called up to start working on hitting at the next level. Are they waiting for Cardenas to hit .400? Yeah he struggled in AAA, but most guys do struggle for a bit when they get called up. Might as well let him work out of the struggles in AAA. Same goes for some of the other guys I mentioned.
Yes, he does control the farm system roster moves.
He probably delegates a lot of it, but it’s ultimately reportable to him and he has the final word.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
He needs to promote some guys big time
Get them up to the next level and get them to develop quicker. A lot of the Rivercats roster is career minor leaguers. He needs to put Cardenas and Brown in those spots that those guys are taking up.
by duballers23 on Jul 25, 2010 11:05 PM PDT up reply actions
Awesome Write-up!
I don’t agree with you 100% but you definitely did a great job.
Quick reactions
— The A’s aren’t signing any big-time free agents who don’t have major health concerns or other obvious problems (injury, age, bad reputations). Nobody wants to play in Oakland right now. The only way the A’s get a big bat is via trade or the farm system. That’s usually how it works anyway.
— What’s the hurry to get rid of Mark Ellis? Yeah, he’s lost a little range, but why assume any of the replacement candidates would be better? If he wants to stay, I’m sure the money can be worked out. If somebody was hitting. 350 in Sacramento, that would be different. But that’s not happening.
— Kouzmanoff doesn’t excite me, but it’s been so long since the A’s had a competent and healthy third baseman that I’m not inclined to complain. Barton is turning into the player we reasonably could have expected, which is fine if the team can acquire or promote some better hitters (with home run pop) who can play the outfield. Realistically, that means hoping that Taylor keeps improving.
The reason to sacrifice Ellis and/or Kouzmanoff is to have money to sign a big-time FA,
and because Rosales and even Tolleson are possible cheap replacements. Of course if you take Crawford off the table — and I don’t know why you would not even try - then keeping averagish players at $5M$7M at 2B and 3B might be OK I guess.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 26, 2010 4:31 AM PDT up reply actions
For what it's worth,
Tolleson is hitting .332 in Sacramento.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
He was hitting .330/.416/.517 coming into today and he’s great defensively according to UZR, but he’s 26. I am not sure how much he can produce at the MLB level, but I’d take him over Sogard.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Jul 26, 2010 4:18 PM PDT up reply actions
Uhh how you come to the conclusion that he's great defensively?
I’m just interested. I know only of TotalZone for Minors and that says he is average at second and bad at short.
Sorry, I meant TotalZone and not UZR and must have been thinking of someone else.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Jul 26, 2010 4:58 PM PDT up reply actions
There's plenty of money that has to be spent
With Sheets and Chavez off the books, you’re adding $20M to the till, even if Crisp’s salary goes to various raises. You’ve also removed Duchsherer’s money from the equation.
The real problem with signing a big-time FA isn’t 2011; it’s the years AFTER that in a multi-year contract, when players currently on the team start going through the arbitration process and the payroll starts to climb. Keeping Ellis in 2010 does nothing one way or the other with that particular issue because money isn’t about to be put aside for future considerations.
From what I’ve read, to avoid charges of collusion, teams have to sign free agents, even at somewhat exorbitant prices. Selig wants baseball to continue to grow, and any labor problems, as he himself has said, will hurt that growth.
Right now, there are five solid MLB pitchers in the rotation, and a fairly solid bullpen. You have two guys in AAA – Mortensen and Ross, plus Outman coming along later in the year — who could serve as back-ups to that starting rotation. There’s no need to spend money in that direction.
That leaves $20M worth of position players that pretty much must be spent in the off-season, most likely on one or two year deals.
They could spend it on extensions for current players
and I don’t think the league would have any reason to question the A’s spending.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
That may be one of the reasons for the Suzuki and Anderson extensions
But I still think the union will want to see more…
That’s why I’d be in favor of a three or four year deal with Werth. Keep him for at least two years, then make a partial salary dump and pick up a couple of good prospects and eat some of that salary at the same time. The A’s were willing to absorb, in 2010, not only Sheets and Crisp, but also the salary of Wilie Taveras. In a way, it’s money to burn, and bringing in Werth doesn’t keep others from playing, and it doesn’t hurt the development of either Taylor or Carter. Crawford may be a good player but given the make-up of the rest of the team, I’d rather have a guy who can jack more homers than a guy with Crawford’s particular skills. The A’s need power, period.
They do.
One can talk all one wants about “they just need good hitters” but it’s also true that power is one of the essential components of the game and that balance is important in an offense.
Would I prefer a bad power hitter or a good non-power hitter? The latter. Do the A’s need more power threats in order to be a contending team? Yes.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Yeah
Reading the posts here (and avoiding Gary Shteyngart’s latest novel for an upcoming interview, which sucks despite a rave review in today’s Times by Michiko Kikutani. God, not once does she call the book science fiction..I mean, Phil Dick was writing stuff ten times this good fifty years ago), it seems there’s a contradiction going on:
On the one hand, looking at one-size-fits-all statistics, you can make a good case for keeping Barton at 1B, for signing Carl Crawford, etc. On the other hand, if you’re looking for balance in the team’s make-up, the last thing you want to do is find one-size-fits-all equivalents for guys who hit for power. You want the power.
Hmm, "balance is important in an offense."
Is this true? I’m really just playing devil’s advocate here, but this seems like a fairly easy thing for someone with a database to check.
Would 9 Bartons be better than a team whose overall numbers equal 9 Bartons, but you have a few Rajai types, some Cust types, some Kouzmanoff types all mixed in?
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 26, 2010 5:35 PM PDT up reply actions
It totally depends on the level of ability
Clearly 9 Bartons would be way, way better than a team of fast guys like Juan Pierre, high average guys like Alex Sanchez, and power hitters like Jake Fox.
The reason that all things being about equal, power is important is that you will face a range of pitchers. Against Derek Lowe, you’re not going to go deep much but he also can’t hold runners, whereas against Dallas Braden you’re not going to be able to run much but you’ll be hitting a lot of fly balls.
Having more tools in your toolbox is an asset, and especially having the most fundamentally important tools too. So no, I wouldn’t rather have a rubber hammer in my toolbox than a good (more obscure tool), but a good hammer is a really important thing to have in your toolbox if you want to get work.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
In the first sentence of the second paragraph,
“power” should read “balance.”
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Yeah, but the question is whether this is verifiable
Everyone here uses one-size-fits-all statistics to compare Carl Crawford, say, and Carlos Pena. But if you’ve got eight Daric Bartons, would you rather have Crawford be your ninth, or a power hitter who has the same one-size statistics as Crawford?
If the answer is that the power hitter is more important, then the whole one-size concept needs to be re-evaluated. If it’s not, then the idea of “balance” doesn’t apply.
I think it’s a really interesting question.
well, those one-size-fits-all stats can be broken down
wOBA has an OBP and SLG component to it, at its core. While OBP is 1.8 or as valuable as SLG, I agree that you probably need power to truly compete. The simple fact remains that a bunch of guys who mash the ball a) walk a lot (probably) and b) hit the ball over the fence to score runs. Hitting the ball once to score runs is a lot easier than stringing together 2 singles and 2 walks.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!
by cuppingmaster on Jul 26, 2010 5:48 PM PDT up reply actions
Then there's a problem here....
On the one hand, you’re talking about sophisticated statistics like wOBA, and then in the same breath you’re saying, “I agree you probably need power to compete,” which isn’t exactly a phrase that conjures images of exactitude.
So the question still remains: Is it balance, or is it nine Bartons? This is a key question to ask because all of the speculation revolves around the simple question of how to best create a team that wins.
The only reason why I say that is because I've read several different stats-oriented articles
That insinuate that one of the few things truly winning teams have in common (besides generally good pitching) is power.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!
by cuppingmaster on Jul 26, 2010 5:58 PM PDT up reply actions
And finding some counter-example here or there
doesn’t change that fact.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
That might be because power correlates very well with good hitting.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jul 27, 2010 6:50 AM PDT up reply actions
Baseball will probably never be a completely exact science.
If you’re down three runs and you have guys on first and second with two outs in the ninth, you might be more likely to get a hit with Ted Williams, but that won’t necessarily save the game. You’re more likely to tie the game in one PA with Mark McGwire, although he’s also more likely to end the game with one PA by making an out.
Stats can tell you a lot, but I think the point is that you’re never going to have a lineup of nine Bartons or nine Crawfords. You can’t build that team. You’re going to have a real-world lineup, and in the real world, against a variety of pitchers, with a variety of hitters necessitated by reality, balance becomes important.
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Jul 26, 2010 6:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Nice recovery, man
I think you’re making Nico look good on bringing you back.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!
by cuppingmaster on Jul 26, 2010 6:06 PM PDT up reply actions
It's all part of the long-term plan to burnish his image in preparation for his Presidential campaign.
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Jul 26, 2010 6:06 PM PDT up reply actions
4 more years! 4 more years!
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!
by cuppingmaster on Jul 26, 2010 6:07 PM PDT up reply actions
4 more characters in your user name!
4 more characters in your user name! Good grief!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
At least the use of capital letters is logical.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
This union argument is pretty much bunk
the A’s have a middling payroll. The Marlins did not… for years and years.
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 27, 2010 10:00 AM PDT up reply actions
Great Write-up
However I will respectfully disagree on a little bit….
1.) The only reason we shouldn’t bring back Ellis is if we’re convinced Adam Rosales is an upgrade at 2B. And he well may be. But we have no one lighting up AAA right now, and Cardenas still has to figure out AAA before we think about him taking Unicorn’s spot. Personally I’d probably prefer Ellis with Rosales as a utility guy again. But if he’s losing patience in the organization, we may have to pick who to keep.
2.) Kouz is fine at third, for now. He’s a stopgap until we get someone better. And again, no one is lighting up AAA, so he’s competing with Rosales. If the A’s really want to try something, we should move Donaldson to 3rd in ST, give him half a year to get the position down, and when/if he’s ready, we can package Kouz at the deadline.
3.) I agree with everyone above that thinks Carter should be playing LF everyday in Sacto. He’s not taking Barton’s spot. Sorry. Carter should be in Left and Taylor should be in right next year. And honestly, I’m fine with Rajai in center. But I wouldn’t mind a Jackson/Sweeney plateau either (with Sweeney in center when he’s playing and Taylor in center when Jackson’s playing).
4.) I like the rotation of Anderson/Cahill/Gio/Mazzaro/Braden. I’m fine with Outman/Ross/Mortenson/whomever else we get off the scrap heap as the fill in fourth and fifth guys if/when Anderson and Braden go down. Everyone in our rotation has been excellent this year. In fact our worst starting pitcher has been Sheets.
5.) The bullpen will figure itself out. I’m not counting on Devine anymore. The guy hasn’t been healthy in forever. But Bailey/Wuertz/Breslow/Ziegler/Blevins/Wolf/H-Rod is fine for next year. Finding average relief pitching to follow the top 4 is not a major problem for the organization.
6.) This idea of getting Werth and/or Crawford is a bit ludicrous. Yall sound like my Clippers Fan Roommate thinking LeBron was gonna go there. Let’s face it; no one goes to the games, it’s an extreme pitcher’s park, and we haven’t been good for a couple seasons. There’s no draw to Oakland. So to sign FA’s we have to destroy our own finances. I don’t mind the Sheets or Crisp signings as a buy low type, but we’re not getting big name FA’s.
7. (and last)) I think there’s something to be said for the whole being greater than the sum of the parts. There is a very good chance most of our young players get better next year. Why? Because they’re still developing. We’re kinda in the race now and we’ve got next-to-no talent on the offensive side. Our young pitching is only going to get better. And our hitters that ARE good should improve (ie. Suzuki, Barton, Pennington have all gotten better). Kouz will have another year to adjust to the league. Carter and Taylor will have ups and downs, but will provide more bop in our lineup either way.
I am fine with a starting lineup of:
1. Rajai
2. Barton
3. Suzuki
4. Cust
5. Taylor
6. Carter
7. Kouz
8. Ellis or Rosales
9. Pennington
I think with a team structured like ours, the majority of improvement will have to come from within. FA’s and trades should really only be providing bit players and role players. And if we’re not good enough building from within, then we’re just not good enough.
by thashyt on Jul 26, 2010 3:13 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
One more thing....
Another thing I wanted to mention is Cust……Why are we getting rid of him? Why does anyone want to get rid of him? Look around the AL. What DH is having a better year than him? The only ones you’d mention are Thome and Scott. But no one is clearly better.
The reason not to keep Cust is to open DH for Carter. Otherwise you don't.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 26, 2010 4:32 AM PDT up reply actions
This is one reason I'd rather see Carter in the outfield.
Cust took his lumps—angry comments in the media notwithstanding—did his time in the minors, came back up when the A’s called, and performed better at the plate than anyone else on the team. It just doesn’t sit right with me that a guy who goes out and does that for a team, and is probably contributing more to the possible contention of this A’s team than any other non-pitcher, can just be let go as soon as the season is over.
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Jul 27, 2010 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions
So the A's are the Clippers? Yikes!
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 26, 2010 4:32 AM PDT up reply actions
Actually....
I tend to think of the A’s more like the Kings (perhaps because that’s my favorite bball team)……a team that’s been good that’s just having a couple of down years. The idea of signing a big name is something we’d have to really over pay to do, so we really don’t think about it too much. But like the Kings we are starting to form a pretty good core, but still have too many average players on the team.
I also think we should get better from within
And for 2012 we can possibly attract some FA because we are on the way to contend. That should help with signing a big name.
On 2B
1.) The only reason we shouldn’t bring back Ellis is if we’re convinced Adam Rosales is an upgrade at 2B. And he well may be. But we have no one lighting up AAA right now, and Cardenas still has to figure out AAA before we think about him taking Unicorn’s spot.
That’s not really true. Steve Tolleson has been absolutely crushing the ball at Sacramento (.330/.416/.517). Now, he turns 27 in November, so he’s hardly a great prospect, but the fact is that the A’s have a middle infielder in AAA who’s tearing the cover off the ball. Minimally, I imagine they’re considering Rosales at 2B and Tolleson as the backup IF next season (he’s played mostly SS this season, with about a dozen games at 3B and a couple at 2B).
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
What scares me about Tolleson....
is Eric Patterson-syndrome. I’m afraid that once we bring him up, we may keep giving him too many chances even if he sucks. But I’m all for letting him move into Rosales’ role from this year.
I would prefer to let Ellis and Rosales play it out
the loser is our utility guy and Tolleson is the first guy up if one of Kouz, Penny, Rosales and Ellis go down. Tolleson is relatively old for AAA and is a mediocre defender at best on 2B or 3B and bad on SS. I would not count on him to be an everyday starter when Ellis is once again injured. For every Rosales you get a Patterson from good hitting but not young AAA middle infielder.
I like your line-up projection
The only thing I would change would be 2B. I really hope that Cardenas can force his way onto the big league team next spring and be our everyday 2B.
by bakerbeachboy on Jul 26, 2010 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions
this is as good as a post gets Z
I read this and wonder if the actual team people do as thorough and insightful a job putting the actual roster together.
I noticed you had Manny Ramirez as a possible DH and I agree he’d probably come here and take over that slot from Cust, who I think will be elsewhere next season… like someone said we’re not getting any free agents that don’t have injury/age issues and he fits the “question mark due to health” label well. I think he’d also generate something of an attendance bump, a player casual fans actually recognize and all.
Absolutely fabbo post that will take a while to fully digest, stellar work here.
Hello, I'm Vince Cotroneo for the Marmaduke B. Mushmouth School of Public Speaking...
I'm not sure Manny is any better than Cust at this point
wRC+ this year:
Manny – 151
Jack – 158
Mo Vaughn is retired.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 26, 2010 4:34 AM PDT up reply actions
The A's still have control of one more arbitration year for Cust
He has a wOBA of .406 and is getting paid less than $3m – even with a raise next year I don’t see any reason why you wouldn’t offer him arbitration.
To clarify something, I am not saying that the A's will sign Crawford, only that they should sign Crawford
Because I’d rather sign a Good, young player to a big contract than sign several bad players to medium contracts.
I just hope he's not signed by the Angels
which looks extremely plausible, arguably more plausible than Crawford→ Yankees.
Matsui’s a FA next year, and they can shift one of Rivera/Abreu to DH where they rightfully belong and sign an outfielder. Now that their rotation has been bolstred, as folks say, yeah.
And, Brett Gardner is good. Brett Gardner is very good.
"Swingles is Day to Day: IE: He’s being turned into a zombie, but they don’t want the world to know for another 5 days (retroactive)" ~Zonis
I agree with that approach, and this is an excellent review of the team going into next season
I’m very, very curious about the team’s evaluation of Tolleson and Sogard. Sogard’s batting line this year has a sort of Penningtonian shape to it, and Tolleson has basically been the Jeff Kent of Sacramento. If those two guys can be productive major-leaguers, then the A’s have a lot of flexibility going into 2011.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
The A's *should* sign Cliff Lee, Jason Werth, Carl Crawford, Lance Berkman, and Paul Konerko....
But it ain’t gonna happen.
Why the heck will they not do what they should do?
Stupidity? I don’t really want Konerko or Berkman and I can see not being able to fit all the other three into their budget, but why would they not go all out to get at least one?
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 26, 2010 7:24 AM PDT up reply actions
I don't see why they SHOULD get Berkman AND Konerko anyway
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 26, 2010 7:57 AM PDT up reply actions
My point was that Crawford is not going to sign with Oakland...
and that mentioning that we should go after him is like saying we should go after Pujols. Yeah… we can do it… but then why not go after everyone?
by Brett Narloch on Jul 26, 2010 9:35 AM PDT up reply actions
why NOT go after Pujols
even if you don’t get him, you have 0% if you never even try. If you are unwilling to even try to get better, then you’ve lost already, and you become the Pirates.
I really worry about Fielder turning into his dad (or Mo Vaughn)
He’s going to want a ton of money and there’s a good chance that in 3 years he’ll be so big he’s going to count as two roster spots.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 26, 2010 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions
If Bud Selig had ANY sense of humor, he'd order this.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Yeah, because we all know Bud to be a real Henny Youngman
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 26, 2010 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions
I like the idea of Bud Selig spending a week doing wacky ridiculous things like this
and then just quitting.
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Jul 26, 2010 12:24 PM PDT up reply actions
That's what I'd do as a lame duck President
We’d see just how much power an executive order has… (could a President unilaterally make it against the law to play for the Angels? We’d find out if I were in charge!)
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 26, 2010 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Mark Cuban won't own the Rangers
MLB’s owners outright rejected all of Cuban’s efforts to be a part of the Cubs ownership group. I don’t think the good old boys relent now.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 26, 2010 6:48 AM PDT reply actions
But what if he offers them money?
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 26, 2010 7:23 AM PDT up reply actions
Well, he was willing to throw around tons of money before and the owners just didn't want Mark Cuban in their club.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 26, 2010 7:57 AM PDT up reply actions
So write up a rosterbation thread about what the 2007 A's could look like.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 26, 2010 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions
But we already...oh.
Actually I enjoyed what the Hardball Times did with the 1980 A’s.
I'm here to talk about the past.
Question on Cust's contract status?
He will still have less than 6 years of major league service time in November, so he will NOT be eligible for free agency, correct? (even though he was non-tendered last year) Will the A’s still have the option of assuring they’ll keep him by offering him arbitration?
Yeah, he's arb eligible for one more year
I’m not sure how the DFA and AAA time affected this, but he may be arb eligible for two more years.
Cust stayed down for pretty much an entire month. That may push his FA eliigibility back a year.
"Swingles is Day to Day: IE: He’s being turned into a zombie, but they don’t want the world to know for another 5 days (retroactive)" ~Zonis
He will have two more arby-years
He will have 4 years 136 days at the end of the season. So he is definitely under 6 years after 2011.
This.
The one accidental benefit to the DFA.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 26, 2010 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, he's arb eligible for one more year
I’m not sure how the DFA and AAA time affected this, but he may be arb eligible for two more years.
Cust stayed down for pretty much an entire month. That may push his FA eliigibility back a year.
"Swingles is Day to Day: IE: He’s being turned into a zombie, but they don’t want the world to know for another 5 days (retroactive)" ~Zonis
He was actually down for 6 weeks (May 15 was his first game), and it did push it back a year.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 26, 2010 11:47 AM PDT up reply actions
This is great Zonis
Who said the quality is decreasing around here? There have been some great FPs the past couple weeks.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!
Wow, um, the jump needs to be moved WAY up if this is gonna be a FP post.
Pam liked my old sig better.
I composed it in Notepad, then put it in Word, so I did not have a jump
If someone else doesn’t add one, I’ll add one now.
Sweet.
No worries, just figured it would annoy some people.
Hell of a Rosterbation, though.
Pam liked my old sig better.
I had been working it over in my head for a week or so
but the Haren trade really prompted me to re-evaluate next year in light of the Angels improvements going forward, and the question of the Rangers ownership problems (if they get a new ownership, will the bankruptcy problem then go away and let them increase payroll or will it still limit them?)
Ellis
The A’s are a much more competitive team with Ellis playing. He’s a steady influence on the other players, he works the count, and gives a sold at bat most of the time. No need to get rid of him now.
As far as Crawford, he’d be a good choice, but I fear he’ll go to the Angels for a lot of money.
The problem with Ellis is that most of his value comes from being an average hitter, with a superstar glove.
He’s lost the glove, however, and the past couple years he has been simply average with it. And on the current market, a great glove, average hit 2B is not going for a whole lot of money (See: Orlando Hudson being paid half of Ellis’s salary for 3x or 4x the production).
We also have several internal replacement candidates.
And we need more offense.
I'd like to see the A's at least make an attempt to resign him for cheaper without picking up the option.
This team needs faces that fans can regonize. With Chavy dead, Mark Ellis is the last link to the good years. And he is still a darn good defender and a solid hitter. He may not be quite as reliable an offensive producer as he used to be, but he is always smart at the plate. He makes great decisions with ball placement and what pitches to swing at, and he’s one of the only guys I feel good about being in the batter’s box with RISP.
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Jul 26, 2010 9:33 AM PDT up reply actions
He's an average defender
And we have a replacement/fill in ready (Rosales), a guy hitting like hell in AAA (Tolleson) and a top prospect hitting almost .400 in Double A (Cardenas).
Mark Ellis, circa 2010, is so not an average defender it's not even funny.
This is why he shouldn’t be traded — he is a lot better, in fact, that he is perceived by the outside world of casual observers and available numbers. Also, O. Hudson just went on the DL for the second time this year.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Youre saying that the most intense observers of the game should see Ellis' better than average defensive value
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 26, 2010 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions
I’m the first to sing the praises of Rosales, but he can be an outfield solution as easily as he can be a middle-infield solution, and outfield is where we need the help more. Our middle infield does fine.
I’ve also been a Tolleson fan for awhile, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to bring him up and have him be a backup/utility guy for a season to get his sea legs in the big leagues. I also don’t think it’s unreasonable to use him in a trade package, since most people seem to feel that the real 2B prospect is Cardenas anyway.
Cardenas is a great possible future for us, but he’s in AA. He couldn’t solve AAA pitching to save his life. He’s got at least another season in the minors before he’s ready.
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Jul 26, 2010 10:01 AM PDT up reply actions
Because he wasn't very good in AAA.
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Jul 26, 2010 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions
Whichis exactly why he needs to go back.
He has nothing left to prove in AA, also IIRC he was terrible the first call-up but did better the second time around.
Why he is back in AA is mind boggling.
I agree. He needs to be in AAA figuring it out.
He has nothing to prove in AA and everything to learn in AAA.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I'm sure he will be back.
But I don’t think he’s a viable option at 2B next year. Sure, invite him to training camp, see if he’s gotten it together by then, but I don’t think he comes out of it with the starting job or—if Ellis stays—even a roster spot.
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Jul 26, 2010 10:18 AM PDT up reply actions
I'm all for putting him back in AAA.
But I’m also worried about what it means that a guy can dominate AA and not really get much going in AAA.
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Jul 26, 2010 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions
That's fair.
I just don’t understand why we jamb trade bits like Tolleson ahead of prospects we’ve been nurturing.
I think it means he's young.
Cardenas was 19 when the A’s traded for him. It feels like he’s been around a while but he’s actually only 22.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Just hearing his name makes me angry
A’s basically forced the kid to repeat a level he already mastered so Jeff Baisley can help River Cats win another PCL division title nobody gives a flying f**k about.
"Rollins helps them with the small ball when he's not in the lineup." - Joe Morgan
I have no idea if this is the reason
But I think it was right to send him (and Brown) back to AA when they did. Both guys were struggling so much that trotting them out there day after day when they’re hitting .175 just wasn’t going to help (at least that’s a pretty good argument to make).
But both guys, Cardenas and Brown, need to be back in AAA.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 26, 2010 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions
If they really cared about PCL Championships, why would they bring important AAA guys up in September?
by LoneStranger on Jul 26, 2010 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions
They don't.
That is, they bring them up after the AAA season ends.
Last year’s September callups came on Sept 19, which was the day the PCL championships ended.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
IIRC
Cardenas didn’t play for the first few weeks of the season as he was coming back from a hand (wrist?) injury. That could have possibly affected his performance at the beginning of the year in AAA.
Guess we won’t find out for sure till he goes back there though.
by bakerbeachboy on Jul 26, 2010 12:08 PM PDT up reply actions
I think Cardenas injured his thumb in spring training
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Yes. It was a freak hitchhiking injury.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Was it? I thought he hurt it pulling a plum out of a pie.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
No such thing as a frea
"You see, in this world there's two kinds of people, my friend: Those with loaded guns and those who dig. You dig."
Bah.
No such thing as a freak hitchhiking injury.
It’s a dangerous occupation, he shouldn’t have been doing it. Much like how I’m sure he’s not allowed to ski or ride a motor cycle too.
"You see, in this world there's two kinds of people, my friend: Those with loaded guns and those who dig. You dig."
Monta Ellis could ride a moped, though.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Jul 26, 2010 12:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Jeff Kent could wash it for him
"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin
by Helloooo 1st on Jul 26, 2010 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions
Holy Crap the Royals are dumb
the Yankees offered Jesus Montero in a package for Joakim Soria, and the Royals declined.
What????
Beane better have them on speed dial for Andrew Bailey.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
I was mad about losing Demel too,
but he hasn’t been that great for Arizona.
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Jul 26, 2010 10:02 AM PDT up reply actions
He's probably about as good as Blevins:
Good on a good day, bad on a bad day, good to have but not bad to lose.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Screw closers
"Swingles is Day to Day: IE: He’s being turned into a zombie, but they don’t want the world to know for another 5 days (retroactive)" ~Zonis
This is Jon Heyman report
So take it with three pounds of salt. But yeah, if Yankees are dangling Montero for Soria, Beane should better be on the phone explaining to Cashman how awesome Andrew Bailey is.
"Rollins helps them with the small ball when he's not in the lineup." - Joe Morgan
The rest of the package must have hurt the Royals.
Soria for Montero straight up is a lopsided trade.
"You see, in this world there's two kinds of people, my friend: Those with loaded guns and those who dig. You dig."
I can't even fathom what the package would be
“You can have Montero for Soria, but if we do this, you have to sign Jason Kendal to a 91-year, $850 billion extension that guarantees he plays 162 games whether he’s alive or not.”
Somehow I feel that would actually appeal to Moore.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 26, 2010 11:46 AM PDT up reply actions
I imagine it was:
“Well we’ll give you Montero for Soria, but we also want player X and player Y, and we’ll give you player Z in return.”
With Player X and Y being highly rated by the Royals.
From the stats I’ve seen of Montero, he’s going to be a superstar. I can’t believe the Yankees weren’t asking for more than the Royals’ stud closer for him.
"You see, in this world there's two kinds of people, my friend: Those with loaded guns and those who dig. You dig."
Definitely
I do wonder what the entire offer was.
It may not have been a dumb move by the Royals to turn it down (what if it was Soria, Moustakas, and Duffy for Montero?).
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 26, 2010 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions
Exactly. It's the 'package' part of the deal that makes me think it wasn't such a ridiculous offer.
"You see, in this world there's two kinds of people, my friend: Those with loaded guns and those who dig. You dig."
That cant be true.
Royals arent that dumb.
"Carter's 25-game hitting streak isn't any normal streak. He's 46 for 97 (.474 average) during the run, adding 16 walks and compiling 81 total bases in the process. I'm out of superlatives for what he's doing." - Kevin Goldstein
Trust the Process
don’t underestimate the stupidity of Dayton Moore.
by Zonis on Jul 26, 2010 9:46 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
They're interested in Jeff Francoeur
that is all.
"Swingles is Day to Day: IE: He’s being turned into a zombie, but they don’t want the world to know for another 5 days (retroactive)" ~Zonis
Nice work!
I do feel we could propose a trade to the Cubs for Marlon Byrd. He shouldn’t demand more than a couple of prospects (Mortensen & Brown?) and would be a nice addition to our OF.
I would like to see Carter as our every day LF, and Taylor at RF, that would leave Barton at first and Cust at DH, and Byrd with Taylor can compensate Carter’s short coverage in the OF.
We should trade Ellis, looking at his current trade value, he might get us a good return now, and in that way, we can play Rosales at 2B every day and handover the utility role to Tolleson.
That way, we could see this lineup next season:
CF Byrd
1B Barton
RF Taylor
DH Cust
3B Kouzmanoff
C Suzuki
2B Rosales
LF Carter
SS Pennington
Why do we need Byrd? Rajai has shown an ability to play at that level when he’s given consistent playing time.
As for Rosales, I’m of two minds. On the one hand, I’m a huge Rosales booster and I want him to play every day. On the other hand, I do see the concern about him becoming “exposed,” and losing his value as a hitter. I think the solution is to play him every day, but in different positions, so no one else’s starting job gets sacrificed for him. I don’t want to give up Mark Ellis at 2B only to discover that Rosales can’t actually hit in an everyday capacity and now our second-baseman has to be an unproven but possibly talented Tolleson. Likewise at any other position Rosales could take over, which is any other position except catcher.
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Jul 26, 2010 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions
Wonder if Beane could maybe put something together to get Shin-Soo Choo.
"Carter's 25-game hitting streak isn't any normal streak. He's 46 for 97 (.474 average) during the run, adding 16 walks and compiling 81 total bases in the process. I'm out of superlatives for what he's doing." - Kevin Goldstein
Beane actually seems to get on fine with Boras
He hasn’t shied away from Boras clients and Boras has recently found that he can’t always set the prices for his clients.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
It's like how Marty Hurney ( the Carolina Panthers GM) gets along fine with Rosenhaus.
You just have to talk their language and offer them a fair deal and both sides win.
"You see, in this world there's two kinds of people, my friend: Those with loaded guns and those who dig. You dig."
I am definitely not familiar with Cleveland’s minor league system. What would it take to acquire Choo? Donaldson, Weeks and Mortensen? Cardenas and Mazzaro?
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Jul 26, 2010 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions
I feel like I’d deal Donaldson, Mortensen, and Cardenas for Choo.
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Jul 26, 2010 12:25 PM PDT up reply actions
What about trading for Alex Rios?
Obviously, wishfull thinking that a) White Sox would be willing to trade him & b) we can put together a package to trade him AND not create other hole in our lineup.
I think you just answered your question twice.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
The White Sox are in first place and not looking to unload their star center fielder
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 26, 2010 11:38 AM PDT up reply actions
According to mlbtraderumors.com,Royals rejected
an offer of Jesus Montero for Joakim Soria…we need to get in on this as a third team, offer the Royals pitching, Yankees get Soria, we get Montero
Frank Cohen
TeamTICKERmlb.com
Your Effortless Baseball Connection
Dang it. If ONLY we had Joe Saunders to dangle.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Joe Saunders for Jesus Montero?
No way I do that—do you know many win Joe Saunders has had since 2008? He’s a winner!!
Frank Cohen
TeamTICKERmlb.com
Your Effortless Baseball Connection
A pedigreed major leaguer with playoff experience, in fact.
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Jul 26, 2010 11:10 AM PDT up reply actions
You know, he's pitched in the playoffs on, I think it was, two separate occasions.
I love how the guy didn’t even appear to have really committed his BS to memory. There were way too many “I think it was”es in there.
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Jul 26, 2010 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, and all the Royals have to offer is Greinke.
That guy’s such a loser.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Hurry Billy, offer Bailey to the Yankees for Montero!!!
"Swingles is Day to Day: IE: He’s being turned into a zombie, but they don’t want the world to know for another 5 days (retroactive)" ~Zonis
And add a mid-level guy or another reliever in if necessary
Montero’s a top 5 prospect in MLB and arguably the best pure hitting prospect in the game.
Do it!
"Swingles is Day to Day: IE: He’s being turned into a zombie, but they don’t want the world to know for another 5 days (retroactive)" ~Zonis
"Yankees Trade Top Propect to Minor League Team (The A's) for All-Star Reliever"
… 6 years later…
Yankees sign Star Catcher, Montero, to 8-Year, 400-Million dollar contract.
by Colorado Fan on Jul 26, 2010 1:10 PM PDT up reply actions
So the A's get Montero for 7 years (cos we wouldn't call him up this year) AND two compensation picks?
Sweet, where do I sign?
"You see, in this world there's two kinds of people, my friend: Those with loaded guns and those who dig. You dig."
Right here --
I’ve made a simple contract on the back of Montero’s death certificate this piece of paper.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
What do you think the pecentages are that Taylor, Weeks, Cardenas, and Carter are servicable to good to great. Hopefully we hit on one, two?
I actually think they all have the talent to be at least serviceable
I see Weeks as the real problem among the three since I don’t know if he’ll ever be healthy enough.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 26, 2010 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions
All four have the talent to be above average everyday players...
But history tells us that only 1 will actually perform that way.
by Brett Narloch on Jul 26, 2010 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions
The good part is that all four (maybe three, not counting Weeks) are relatively close to the majors
That they’re all still holding their own, if not dominating, makes it a little bit more likely they’ll all be solid.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 26, 2010 12:28 PM PDT up reply actions
From an article in the SJ Mercury News on 7/20...
FWIW Beane stated the following in an interview with Tim Kawakami…
We do need some position players that fill that other side of the diamond for us," Beane said, after pointing out that Suzuki, shortstop Pennington and possibly first baseman Daric Barton are stable spots.
Exactly the guys you list that we “absolutely want on our team in 2011”. Good call Zonis :)
So Barton has graduated from "getting there" to "possibly stable."
Good, good.
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Jul 26, 2010 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions
haha, that was a pretty funny way to describe Barton’s status with the team.
by bakerbeachboy on Jul 26, 2010 12:57 PM PDT up reply actions
It was a typo
Beane said “possibly staple.”
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
He must’ve gotten side-tracked and started talking about his search for a pool boy.
by bakerbeachboy on Jul 26, 2010 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions
I do find it interesting who he didn't mention there as much as who he did mention
No Ellis (though I think Ellis is back next year for lack of other options), no Kouzmanoff.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 26, 2010 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions
No Ellis/No Kouz
I think it is because Ellis is only mediocre right now and not getting better. He also has competition with Rosales.
To Kouzmanoff, I think a below average bat is the concern here. I hope he gets hot the rest of the year.
Kouzmanoff already was hot. He had a great June, but he's back down to his season totals in July.
Bad April/May, awesome June, and when you average out those three months you get what he’s done so far in July. Sounds a lot like he’s leveled off at his actual ability.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 26, 2010 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions
I really hope they don't dump Ellis for Rosales.
We need Ellis to be there if Rosales doesn’t pan out in an everyday role.
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Jul 26, 2010 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions
They won't
I’m betting Ellis retires an an A. Maybe one more year as a starter, 2-3 more as a utility INF / mentor, and then a smooth transition into coaching.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
He wouldn't have much "utility" value if he can't play SS or 3B, right?
"We've come a long way, and I'm not talking about Virginia Slims, either." - Art Howe
True. I imagine he'd be good enough to backup
a la Scutaro — a guy you don’t start at, say, 3B if you don’t have to, but who can handle it on a given day if necessary.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
um physically unable to make the throw is different from would rather not play him there.
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 26, 2010 4:50 PM PDT up reply actions
I think that if Ellis does come back, he'll be bought out and then resigned to a cheaper deal.
Pam liked my old sig better.
What is the "other side of the diamond?"
He listed a SS, which is on one side…a 1B which is on the other side… and a C which is right in the middle.
So is the “other” side a 2B or 3B? They’re on completely different sides.
by Brett Narloch on Jul 26, 2010 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions
Did that article mis-quote Beane... who meant to imply that Kouz's job was safe and not Barton's?
That would put everyone on one side.
by Brett Narloch on Jul 26, 2010 12:46 PM PDT up reply actions
I think he was referencing pitching as opposed to position players
My bad, should have linked the article. Here’s a link…
by bakerbeachboy on Jul 26, 2010 12:56 PM PDT up reply actions
I wonder if he's basically saying he's going to let Ellis go after the season.
Ellis seems pretty stable, so leaving him out of that statement seems like he’s saying stomething there.
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Jul 26, 2010 12:44 PM PDT up reply actions
I think that's a misread
I think what he’s saying is that while the team needs to upgrade, he still wants Pennington, Barton and Suzuki at their positions. That doesn’t mean he plans to get rid of anyone else in particular, but that he’s not likely to sign a free agent or make a trade for someone at any of those positions.
The A’s will have money to spend to upgrade, and to help Selig avoid charges of collusion, WILL spend that money if this year is any indication of what happens in the coming off-season.
Those are nice pieces to build on.
And wow, three cheers for Cliff Pennington. First round pick, then essentially lost all prospect status with mediocre minor league numbers. And now he does this in the majors.
I don't think Pennington is a fluke, either
He just has such a great approach at the plate that he’s going to get the most out of what he has physically. It’s nice to know that for the next 4 years they’ve got a guy they can count on to be pretty okay at everything (which is really good for a SS).
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 26, 2010 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions
Maybe Green won’t stick at shortstop.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Jul 26, 2010 12:56 PM PDT up reply actions
Love me some Pennington
Would Green be a viable option at 3B?
I have no idea what his range and arm are like, but some members of AN have expressed a lot of concern over his high error totals this year at SS (myself not included). Offensively does he project 20+ homerun power at the major league level?
I hope that Green sticks at SS long-term though, cus man – if Pennington keeps producing at this level over the next couple years he could be a BIG trade piece with the current lack of quality SS in the major leagues.
by bakerbeachboy on Jul 26, 2010 1:06 PM PDT up reply actions
and hitting 200 for several months was?
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 26, 2010 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions
What "several months" was this?
He had an absolutely brutal stretch in May (horribly unlucky, though that’s been balanced out by two high BABIP months), but he’s been pretty awesome the other three months of this season (.783, .844, .793 OPS in April, June, and July).
Even when he was bad in May, he was still walking. He just couldn’t get a hit to fall during that 0 for 30 or whatever it was.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 26, 2010 5:39 PM PDT up reply actions
you know what youre right
I just think hes going to regress, but thats probably just me (and ZIPs) valuing his minor league numbers too much.
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 27, 2010 10:17 AM PDT up reply actions
How does he have the 4th best WAR for a SS in the majors?
I remember writing him off a couple years after his draft, everyone said he wouldn’t amount to anything, and now he’s actually playing better than most people thought he ever could.
by el generico on Jul 26, 2010 10:13 PM PDT up reply actions
He leads all American League shortstops in WAR.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Jul 26, 2010 10:15 PM PDT up reply actions
More than Jeter???
How is that possible? Cliffy P has no rings!
(I jest)
by el generico on Jul 26, 2010 10:35 PM PDT up reply actions
I do not know if its that he is playing better than we thought he would
or that the quality of short stops has decreased quite a bit since then. After all, ARod is no longer a Shortstop, Jeter is fading, Garciaparra is gone, and Tejada is a 3B as well, Reyes is injured…
*WARNING!* Playing online multiplayer games may change your: Religion, Sexual Orientation, Race and/or Gender for undetermined periods of time.
A good point
about the quality of SS, which seems weaker at the moment, but Cliffy P is outplaying Jeter and Reyes and Rollins, “Name” SS.
by el generico on Jul 26, 2010 10:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Rollins and Tulowitski have spent a lot of time on the DL this year, FWIW
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
I remembered Tulo had
but totally forgot about Rollins’ injury, thanks Nick.
by el generico on Jul 27, 2010 12:13 PM PDT up reply actions
One of those lucky breaks, I suppose.
Prospect analysis is always iffy. Sure, we can say that someone like John Halama has a 5% chance of being valuable in the majors ever again, but you accumulate enough longshots, and eventually one pays off.
Hence our obsession with stockpiling medicore OFers named Matt.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I think the explanation of injuries hurting his performance but not talent level is a fairly good explanation IMO
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 27, 2010 10:18 AM PDT up reply actions
I think his draft position is indicative that he had the ability to succeed.
I’m actually not that surprised at how good he’s been. To be a good SS you don’t really need to hit a ton, and Penny is doing enough for me to be happy.
Keep in mind, of course, that "the best defense of Derek Jeter's life" ranks somewhere in between "the best fiscal responsibility of Mike Tyson's life" and "the best not-getting-assassinated-ness of James Garfield's life." -FJM
I agree with your second sentence
but I read several prospect analysts who didn’t like his range or arm enough to stick at SS, and yet he has proven them wrong, which impressed me. All I have to say is kudos to him, and kudos to the A’s for sticking with him.
by el generico on Jul 26, 2010 10:40 PM PDT up reply actions
What’s cheap? Travis Buck?
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Jul 26, 2010 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions
I equivalete cheap as nothing of value.
except for a few million bucks in salary taken on.
In other words, some AAAA guy or C level relief prospect. Pure salary dump.
"Swingles is Day to Day: IE: He’s being turned into a zombie, but they don’t want the world to know for another 5 days (retroactive)" ~Zonis
Travis Buck is “some AAAA guy” to me. Would you do that deal?
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Jul 26, 2010 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions
Right now, Travis Buck is likely the best (healthy) outfielder in the A's organization (counting Cust as a DH)
That’s really kinda sad.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 26, 2010 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions
Depends how much of the contract/what they want in return
He’s signed through next year (and has a no trade).
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 26, 2010 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions
We don't really know
what the lineup will look like next year. I’m afraid we don’t have any prospects that don’t have a good chance of washing out in the majors. And the many guys who have been plagued by injuries (Anderson, the Duke, Crisp, Jackson, Sweeney, etc. etc.) may come back greater than ever when they fully heal or may wash out. We just don’t know. We have a high risk group of players some of whom will be great, some of whom will suck, and no good ways to tell who will do which because they are injury prone, or their stats are only from the minors, or their play varies so much from year to year. So nobody can predict what the lineups are going to look like next year, as fun as it is to make them up.
Carter and Taylor are not messiahs. Neither Carter nor Taylor are anywhere close to certain to turn out to be good major league players. Carson and Watson both hit much better than Carter and Taylor, and Carson is a great base runner. Tolleson also has as much chance of being a good player as Carter or Taylor, as do some of the newer guys like Cardenas. Time to stop the self-replicating mythology about these two guys based on such slim evidence and start looking more at other prospects and trade options.
Carter is irrationally overvalued and DH and 1B are our two strongest positions. Carter thus makes great trade material. It’s tough to give Carter a shot because he’d have to be, quite improbably, crazy good to oust Barton or Cust.
There is a small chance that Taylor may substantially overperform what we can expect from his stats, and our outfield is very weak, so he should be given a shot. One, but probably not more than one, of Taylor, Carson, Watson, and Jackson is likely to surprise us and provide several years of great play. Sweeney may find power when his knees heal or his knees may wash him out. We shouldn’t pretend that we know now who of these will become our great players and who will wash out. They should all get good shots at proving what they have this September (if we’re not in contention by then) or next spring or both.
Carter and Taylor
I’m very happy that Tolleson is suddenly pounding the ball this year at Sacto, but neither he nor Watson not Carron did anything remotely like what Taylor and Carter did in their early 20s in AA and AAA. Tolleson can make himself useful because he can play infield, but he’s 27 and he’s never even hit double digits in HRs in his career (though unless he just stops hitting he will this season). Carter could of course flame out, but he’s leading the PCL in HRs, and he led the Texas League in HRs last year (and nearly won the triple crown there). To compare that track record to Matt Watson or Splat Carson is just straining the facts to make an argument.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
AAA lines
Watson: .313 /..358 /.600 (.958)
Carson .301 /.376/.534 (.910)
Carter .244 /.351 /.504 (.855)
Taylor .268 /.341 /.398 (.739)
PCL average .274 /.344/.423 (.767)
Carter’s batting average and Taylor’s OPS are both well below the PCL average. The Carter/Taylor drumbeat is I am afraid the biggest piece of mythology divorced from reality to excite A’s fans in a long time. It’s still possible that they may end up being great but the odds of that are long.
by A's Believer on Jul 26, 2010 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, all this proves is that Carson and Watson have been more productive this season at Sacto than Carter and Taylor
That doesn’t mean that they’re better prospects, obviously.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
I'm not comparing them as long-term prospects
My point is that if or when Carter and Taylor come up to the majors there are good reasons to expect them to probably do worse, not better, than what Watson and Carson have done this year when they were brought up from Sac.
by A's Believer on Jul 26, 2010 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions
Here's a similar example.
Last year:
Cliff Pennington in AAA: .264/.345/.367, age 24/25 season, first time in AAA
Eric Patterson in AAA: .307/.396/.494, age 26 season, fourth time (!) in AAA
Which player turned out better?
Seriously, don’t underestimate how important age/time in AAA is. I fell into the same trap last year. An older player can master AAA if he’s there long enough, and I think we see that time and again.
Keep in mind, of course, that "the best defense of Derek Jeter's life" ranks somewhere in between "the best fiscal responsibility of Mike Tyson's life" and "the best not-getting-assassinated-ness of James Garfield's life." -FJM
cherry-picking
For every Cliff Pennington surprise there are a dozen wash-outs.
by A's Believer on Jul 26, 2010 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Why don't you cherry pick for me some players who were successful for their first time in their age 30 AAA season,
and succeeded in the MLB
Keep in mind, of course, that "the best defense of Derek Jeter's life" ranks somewhere in between "the best fiscal responsibility of Mike Tyson's life" and "the best not-getting-assassinated-ness of James Garfield's life." -FJM
How could Carter and Taylor do worse than
Carson and Watson?
I don’t think Carter and Taylor should be up yet but they could bat better left handed than these two fill ins we have here.
Gee I don't know
How could two people who did worse than Carson and Watson do worse than Carson and Watson? Wow, what a puzzle.
by A's Believer on Jul 26, 2010 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Cater and Taylor have ability
the other two who are up here do not have the necessary talent to succeed up here, IMO they are filling in holes on the roster.
I think Buck will
be on a plane to Arlington for tomorrow’s game. He has hit well in Texas in the past.
Yes and I have more talent and ability than Watson and Carson too
Put me in coach, I’m ready to play! Who needs evidence?
by A's Believer on Jul 26, 2010 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions
I need evidence.
Give me a player who’s succeeded after being that old!?
Keep in mind, of course, that "the best defense of Derek Jeter's life" ranks somewhere in between "the best fiscal responsibility of Mike Tyson's life" and "the best not-getting-assassinated-ness of James Garfield's life." -FJM
Do you have 23 home runs in the PCL this year?
And 26 doubles? Congratulations…
by Glorious Mundy on Jul 26, 2010 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions
This sure sounded like you were comparing them as long-term prospects
Carter is irrationally overvalued and DH and 1B are our two strongest positions. Carter thus makes great trade material. It’s tough to give Carter a shot because he’d have to be, quite improbably, crazy good to oust Barton or Cust.
There is a small chance that Taylor may substantially overperform what we can expect from his stats, and our outfield is very weak, so he should be given a shot. One, but probably not more than one, of Taylor, Carson, Watson, and Jackson is likely to surprise us and provide several years of great play. Sweeney may find power when his knees heal or his knees may wash him out. We shouldn’t pretend that we know now who of these will become our great players and who will wash out. They should all get good shots at proving what they have this September (if we’re not in contention by then) or next spring or both.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
The more important numbers:
Watson=31 years old and repeating AAA
Carson=28 years old and repeating AAA
Carter=24 years old and in AAA for first full season
Taylor=24 years old and in AAA for first full season
Frank Cohen
TeamTICKERmlb.com
Your Effortless Baseball Connection
I'm starting to think both Carter and Taylor
will start the season in AAA next year unless they rake like no tomorrow in ST
I think the chance they start in AAA is pretty small
I’m fairly confident one, if not both, will be called up in September
Frank Cohen
TeamTICKERmlb.com
Your Effortless Baseball Connection
They might be called up in September and still start 2011 in AAA.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 26, 2010 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions
I dont see Beane starting Taylor/Carter's
Clock any sooner he has to So I think they prob both come up after the super 2 deadline.
"Carter's 25-game hitting streak isn't any normal streak. He's 46 for 97 (.474 average) during the run, adding 16 walks and compiling 81 total bases in the process. I'm out of superlatives for what he's doing." - Kevin Goldstein
Next years. I ment.
Should been more specific.
"Carter's 25-game hitting streak isn't any normal streak. He's 46 for 97 (.474 average) during the run, adding 16 walks and compiling 81 total bases in the process. I'm out of superlatives for what he's doing." - Kevin Goldstein
I'm pretty sure they'll both be in Oakland
by late April, early May next year
Unless they both pull a Travis Buck
Yeah Im thinking Mid- Late May.
"Carter's 25-game hitting streak isn't any normal streak. He's 46 for 97 (.474 average) during the run, adding 16 walks and compiling 81 total bases in the process. I'm out of superlatives for what he's doing." - Kevin Goldstein
Is Taylor on the 40-man roster?
I thought he was not. I also thought that only guys on the 40-man get called up in September.
Am I mistaken on one of these points?
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
I think we have enough crap on the 40-man
I think one of Heether, Lyman, Watson, Carson or Bowers can easily be designated without being a loss.
Two of the three best hitters in Sac this year
namely Watson and Carson (the other being Tolleson), are “crap”? That would be a sad thought if I could actually bring myself to think it.
by A's Believer on Jul 26, 2010 10:44 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm looking at the stats of the first AAA team I could think of,
the Tacoma Rainiers, and they have basically the exact situation.
Mike Wilson and David Winfree are both OPSing well over .900. They are both considered old for AAA, and are repeating the level. Neither appeared on Sickels top 20 list for the Mariners, and neither are mentioned much on Lookout Landing, especially not with much positivity.
So, would you maybe concede that age/level are important, or do you think that a good amount of AN, LL, and John Sickels are wrong for not thinking much of these guys?
Keep in mind, of course, that "the best defense of Derek Jeter's life" ranks somewhere in between "the best fiscal responsibility of Mike Tyson's life" and "the best not-getting-assassinated-ness of James Garfield's life." -FJM
Yes, a player does have to be on the 40-man
But as Rio says, there’s plenty of guys on the 40-man now who don’t have a future with the team. It wouldn’t be hard to make room.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 26, 2010 5:43 PM PDT up reply actions
Carter is 23 yo. Both him and Taylor’s birthdays are in December.
by bakerbeachboy on Jul 26, 2010 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions
I see, ignore how they are actually playing and just like at their age. Right.
by A's Believer on Jul 26, 2010 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions
Dude are you serious?
Honestly, Carson and Watson are AAAA players. Carter and Taylor are promising prospects. You know where Carson was at age 23? Splitting the season between A ball and AA, OPS’ing 665. Watson? He was OPS’ing 753 in AA. And these aren’t even mentioning projections, of which Carter and Taylor dwarf Watson and Carson. Considering both Carter and Watson are 6’6" athletics beasts and Watson and Carson aren’t really even close. There is a reason that Taylor and Carter are so highly regarded and Carson and Watson are considered little more than organizational depth.
Frank Cohen
TeamTICKERmlb.com
Your Effortless Baseball Connection
Considering both Carter and Taylor are 6'6" athletic....*
Frank Cohen
TeamTICKERmlb.com
Your Effortless Baseball Connection
You must have been so disappointed by Tommy Everidge and Cedric Bowers.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Let's add more names
Brooks Conrad (who has actually been kinda decent for Atlanta this year), Wes Bankston (only 24 during his time in the majors, but I think he applies as the AAAA type), Dee Brown (2007), Kevin Thompson, Hiram Bocachica, JJ Furmaniak, Ruddy Lugo, Erasmo Ramirez…
There’s a reason they’re called replacement players. Every team has a list just as long. Half the time these guys overlap the lists of different teams.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 26, 2010 5:53 PM PDT up reply actions
Age means something.
Mariano Rivera is still a monster pitcher, but I’m not signing the dude to a 10-year contract, because he’s 40.
Watson and Carson, these guys are hitting the ol’ three-oh. They’re approaching a time in the normal life cycle of a big-leaguer when teams start ignoring the guy during free agency and trade talks because his salary outpaces his performance. They’re reaching peak ability and will start to decline soon.
I’m with you all the way that there are neglected talents in the minors. I forever keep the flame of Ken Phelps, and Bill James’ “Ken Phelps All-Stars.” But not every guy who slogs it out for ten years in the minors and finally starts developing a mastery of AAA ball deserves a shot. At the rate it took Watson and Carson to figure it out in AAA, we’d be waiting until they were 40 before they could figure out MLB pitching, and by that time, they couldn’t hit it that well anyway, because they’d be 40.
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Jul 26, 2010 6:18 PM PDT up reply actions
Well said
One thing people seem to not take into account in these sorts of discussions: Nobody seems to be saying it’s impossible for Watson or Carson to suddenly become awesome (or even solid major leaguers). Of course it’s possible. It’s probably even happened with similar players a few times. But it’s so very, very unlikely that it’s foolish for a Major League team to count on or expect the thing that happens 1% of the time to happen.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 26, 2010 7:52 PM PDT up reply actions
I just want to add Carter’s splits:
Home: .217 / .317 / .451 (.768 OPS)
Road: .265 / .382 / .556 (.938 OPS)
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Jul 26, 2010 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Wrong part of the story.
The point is, his numbers don’t show his full performance. And if we did somehow manage to make the postseason, he’d see some very important PAs in some very important games, most of which would not be happening at the Coliseum. We probably wouldn’t have home-field “advantage” for the LDS, the LCS, or the World Series.
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Jul 26, 2010 6:20 PM PDT up reply actions
And many of the PCL fields are at high elevations like Coors Field
meaning Carter’s away numbers are preposterously inflated over what we’d expect him to hit in any ball park besides the Rockie’s home So the line to look is the .768 OPS which on average we’d expected to come down to about .568 in the majors. And the batting average is likely to be below .200. These numbers are confirmed by how he actually hit in spring training this year Of course, it’s possible that Carter like Pennington could surprise us beyond what we should expect from his stats. But I’m afraid the chances are less than 50/50 of Carter making it in the majors.
by A's Believer on Jul 26, 2010 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions
My point exactly
Penciling either Carter or Taylor into next year’s lineup at this point is preposterous.
by A's Believer on Jul 26, 2010 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions
Really?
Your point seems to be more along the lines of “Carter and Taylor are crappy prospects who are more likely than not to bust based on their AAA batting averages at age 23.”
by Glorious Mundy on Jul 26, 2010 2:39 PM PDT up reply actions
More likely than not to bust
does not contradict possibly very good. The odds of busting are much better than the odds of being very good, I’m afraid, but either could happen. My main point is that we don’t know, so all the hype penciling in Carter and Taylor to the A’s lineup or urging us to bring them up now as if they are sure-thing saviors of the team is ridiculous. Carter and Taylor are the most overhyped prospects I’ve ever seen. It’s all quite silly.
by A's Believer on Jul 26, 2010 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions
"Carter and Taylor are the most overhyped prospects I’ve ever seen."
well, that’s just ridiculous and you must not really follow baseball very closely.
Pam liked my old sig better.
BRIEN TAYLOR!!!!!!!!!!!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
he blew his arm out
thats a little different
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 26, 2010 4:52 PM PDT up reply actions
Ben Davis
Sean Burroughs
Jeff King
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
I know there are plenty. I was just objecting to Brien Taylor specifically
it would be like saying Nick Adenhart was an overhyped prospect because he didn’t do anything in the show.
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 27, 2010 10:23 AM PDT up reply actions
I wasn't disagreeing with you
I was just posting an off-the-top-of-my-head list in a reasonably logical place.
Also: Todd van Poppel.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Drew Henson
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
He didn't really blow his arm out. He got injured defending his brother from a beating in a fight
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 26, 2010 5:55 PM PDT up reply actions
I know. I meant that he injured his arm it wasn't a lack of talent
think about how much of a dick his brother must feel like?
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 27, 2010 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions
Question
Have you seen Carter and Taylor’s minor league stat lines from before this season?
I love my Oakland A's
by Philip Christy on Jul 26, 2010 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes
They have good stats against defenses in AA and below, and worse stats against the better players in AAA. The better players they play against the worse they get. Not surprising, but hardly a good reason to expect they wouldn’t do even worse against the even better players in the majors. There are tons of people with great stats in AA, and many with great stats in AAA, who wash out.
by A's Believer on Jul 26, 2010 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Along with plenty of players
who struggle in their first try at a new level and then figure it out. Gio Gonzalez comes to mind.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I think you just described pretty much every current and former Major League player, ever.
Everyone gets worse as the competition ramps up.
Up above you compare Carter and Taylor to Tolleson and Cardenas
and you say, “Tolleson also has as much chance of being a good player as Carter or Taylor, as do some of the newer guys like Cardenas.”
Now, instead of trying to justify those specific evaluations of individual players, you’re just throwing up your hands and saying that prospects flame out all the time and who knows how they’re going to perform.
The only constant I can see is that you want to be contrary.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
I started this thread with a post titled "we don't know"
The odds suggested by statistics favor some players more than others, but it’s almost always a highly uncertain gamble. and our current prospects are no exception. That’s why I talk about the chances or odds of Tolleson, Carter, Taylor, etc. I’ve been quite constant about stating the highly uncertain nature of all this. I have no desire to be contrary for contrary’s sake and I’m very sorry if you have taken anything I have said that way.
Perhaps I should revise my statement you have quoted to “Tolleson has a better chance”, although we might need to trade an infielder to make room for him or use Tolleson himself (as we could use Carter) as a trading chip:
Tolleson .332/ .418/.528 (.945 )
Carter .244 /.351 /.504 (.855)
Taylor .268 /.341 /.398 (.739)
PCL average .274 /.344/.423 (.767)
Tolleson’s AAA performance this year is actually a big improvement over his lower league performances in previous years, suggesting that he adapts better than Carter, Taylor, and most other players to more challenging play.
by A's Believer on Jul 26, 2010 11:18 PM PDT up reply actions
Why do you refuse to look at any year other than 2010 in evaluating any of these players?
For instance, this is Taylor and Carter’s first year at AAA. In Tolleson’s first year in AAA (when he was 26, not 23 or 24) he hit .270/.338.375. His career SLG in 6 minor-league seasons, covering more than 550 games and 2,400 ABs, is .415,
So, again, first 100 games or so at AAA:
Tolleson: .270/.338/.375
Carter: .251/.356/.514
And Carter is 3 years younger than Tolleson. Now, what was the point you were making again about who adapts better to challenging play?
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
many with great stats in AAA, who wash out.
Two of them are named Matt Watson and Matt Carson. They’re hitting like .100 right now.
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Jul 26, 2010 6:22 PM PDT up reply actions
SSS
and FWIW Carson’s 2009+2010 A’s line, from all of 45 PAs, is .233/.222/.395 (.618). Neither Watson nor Carson are hitting “like .100” so stop making stuff up.
BTW, I had the great pleasure to witness some of Carson’s splendid base running against the White Sox yesterday, stealing second and advancing to third on a passed ball. And I’ll take the opportunity to add that the Anderson jersey is much nicer than the Rudi jersey (it helps they had the right size left when I came in).
That said, I sadly must agree that Watson and Carson, like Carter and Taylor, are more likely than not to wash out. But chances are that one or two out of this four will contribute greatly to the A’s next year. It’s just that there is no good way to figure out who among these will wash out and who will succeed except to give them all extensive shots this September (if we’re out of contention) and at spring training. Ditto Tolleson and hopefully some other prospects. (No, I don’t think Watson or Carson are long-term prospects, but if they play well the remainder of this year and in spring training and other OF prospects wash out it’s definitely worth keeping them around for one or more years of helping the A’s win).
by A's Believer on Jul 27, 2010 12:02 AM PDT up reply actions
See that's where you're wrong
There’s a great way to figure out who among those will wash out and it’s to realize that given their histories — including dominating AAA in their mid-to-late 20s — Carson and Watson are almost certainly not capable of thriving in the big leagues. Whereas Carter and Taylor have a good chance.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Actually, where he's wrong is saying that the Anderson jersey was nicer than the Rudi.
I roundly disagree. I’ll be rocking that Anderson jersey, naturally, but the Rudi is way cooler. Love those garish colors. If the A’s move to San Jose and decide to switch color schemes, I hope they choose like turquoise letters with orange trim on hot pink jerseys.
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Jul 27, 2010 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions
They'd better not switch colors.
I say that because it would piss me off, but I think it’s a terrible idea strategically, too. It’s going to be a vulnerable time and a lot of East Bay fans will be on the fence about whether to stay true to the team. A color change at that moment would make them feel like it’s not the same team. It’d be throwing away fan base for no good reason.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
What if they went to their original Philly colors


*WARNING!* Playing online multiplayer games may change your: Religion, Sexual Orientation, Race and/or Gender for undetermined periods of time.
YEEEEESSSS!
Now THAT would be awesome! And keep the old-school feel with everything too :)
by bakerbeachboy on Jul 28, 2010 1:17 AM PDT up reply actions
Yes, really
I’ve been following baseball for decades and I’ve never seen any prospect hype that is so irrational, so preposterously over-the-top. Bring in a guy who is batting below the minor-league average to replace one of the two best hitters on the A’s? Where else have I seen such a popular idea that is so incredibly bad? I can’t recall any such. Every day, all season long, I have heard people proposing crap like this. (They don’t usually call out this replacement explicitly, of course. They simply rant over and over again about Carter should be brought up but don’t go into any such detail like what position he should play. But 1B and DH are the positions Carter is trained to play and the same people tend to go on evidence-free rants against Barton and Cust).
Indeed I’m not sure in any part of society during my long life that I have ever seen such a bizarre mass delusion.
by A's Believer on Jul 26, 2010 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions
I think he'd be much better in a real damn organization
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 26, 2010 5:56 PM PDT up reply actions
you may be on to something
the point being that Alex GOrdon was much more highly touted. Wasn’t he in SI too or something? Anyway he was getting a lot of press prior to the spring training that he was put on the roster for no reason other than the royals hate the people of kansas city.
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes
I'm no longer sure if Gordon can still develop
But I really don’t like how they’ve used him.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 26, 2010 7:53 PM PDT up reply actions
OK Then
Sounds like you hang around with an awful lot of strawmen.
by Glorious Mundy on Jul 26, 2010 3:41 PM PDT up reply actions
I wish they were straw, instead they have been real callers to the CT show (practically every day all season long)
but alas also some folks here on AN, including on this thread below. ZOMG Carter hit 4-for-5 today PUT HIM ON THE NEXT FLIGHT TO ARLINGTON NOW
by A's Believer on Jul 26, 2010 4:18 PM PDT up reply actions
That was one guy who made the Arlington comment.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Jul 26, 2010 4:24 PM PDT up reply actions
There is stuff like that on AN every time Carter has a good day or a little streak
I guess the more sophisticated posters have just learned to ignore it as harmless enthusiasm.
by A's Believer on Jul 26, 2010 4:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Again, you've been here for 3 weeks
Please don’t preach to us about what’s people on AN have been saying. It’s ridiculous.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
I've been reading with my "troll" radar on,
and it’s been at “orange-mauve.” Which is more than “chicken-quail” but less than “medium-large.”
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
At the pool this weekend
Isaac and 2 of his friends insisted (well, it was mostly one friend who was insisting) that I grade them on their retrieving-pool-diving-toys skills.
So after playing for about 15 minutes, I told them I was ready to give them their grades:
Purple
17
Spaghetti
In retrospect, I probably should have made one of the grades “Barton”.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Clearly the last vote came from the Russian judge,
because I heard it was pretty clearly linguine.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Carter's performance has undeniably gotten better.
Many ANers notice that. Many of them also think that calling him up this season might give him a leg up on developing fully in time for next season. They also think that we have a lineup almost completely bereft of power, and that calling up a potential power bat can’t hurt.
I don’t think that makes them unsophisticated.
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Jul 26, 2010 5:52 PM PDT up reply actions
And, also, many of us, including some of those in the camp you just described, are well aware that both guys might really struggled if called up right now
What A’s Believer is saying is simply not a true representation of the general feeling (at least around here) about those two guys.
There’s lots of excitement and hype, yes. Most people think they will be varying levels of good to great eventually. Very few people think they’re two future hall of famers who should come up right now because they’re certainly better than the other options. At least, there aren’t enough people who think that to make these grand general claims about A’s fans as a whole.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 26, 2010 5:59 PM PDT up reply actions
where did you get the idea
that I’m making “grand general claims about A’s fans as a whole”?
by A's Believer on Jul 26, 2010 9:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Mostly the grand general claims
you seem to want to attribute to an entire community of fans, even though they haven’t really been made.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I recall
using the words “some AN posters”, not “an entire community.” Why are you imputing to me things I haven’t said? Or perhaps I said something that implied this to you? If so what was it? I assure you that was not my intention.
by A's Believer on Jul 26, 2010 9:17 PM PDT up reply actions
This is supposed to be a reply to Nico’s post just above, BTW.
by A's Believer on Jul 26, 2010 9:18 PM PDT up reply actions
Hmm...I recall you saying something like
“I’ve been following baseball for decades and I’ve never seen any prospect hype that is so irrational, so preposterously over-the-top. Bring in a guy who is batting below the minor-league average to replace one of the two best hitters on the A’s? Where else have I seen such a popular idea that is so incredibly bad? I can’t recall any such. Every day, all season long, I have heard people proposing crap like this. (They don’t usually call out this replacement explicitly, of course. They simply rant over and over again about Carter should be brought up but don’t go into any such detail like what position he should play. But 1B and DH are the positions Carter is trained to play and the same people tend to go on evidence-free rants against Barton and Cust). Indeed I’m not sure in any part of society during my long life that I have ever seen such a bizarre mass delusion.”
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I certainly did say that
and I also stated that I heard this stuff frequently from CT show callers and read it from some AN posters. If I had meant AN posters or A’s fans “as a whole” I would have said that, but I said nothing like that. So please folks stop imputing to me opinions that are radically different than what I actually said. The statements I have made are certainly nothing like “grand general claims about A’s fans as a whole,” as thejd44 imputed to me. These are a set of specific statements about a subculture of A’s fans, probably small but vocal, who have gotten carried far away in their hopes for Carter and Taylor.
by A's Believer on Jul 27, 2010 12:25 AM PDT up reply actions
i.e. I said what Nico just quoted
the software is screwing up the replies, it’s not just my reply fails I swear. :-)
by A's Believer on Jul 27, 2010 12:29 AM PDT up reply actions
Not a reply fail.
After the indentation reaches the 19th level, it stops indenting any further.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
This really tells us
more about communication technology than it tells us about Carter and Taylor.
I’ve been following baseball for decades and I’ve never seen any prospect hype that is so irrational, so preposterously over-the-top.
Sure, and how many fan-participation blogs did you read in 1995? Or even last year, for that matter?
The hype has always been there. It’s just that now it’s all conveniently gathered onto a website where you can read it all and be overwhelmed by its hypiness.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
that's a good point
This ultrahype does extend call-in sports radio (also not so much of that in previous decades).
by A's Believer on Jul 26, 2010 4:47 PM PDT up reply actions
The most common refrain on AN around Carter
is “He’s not ready.” That’s hardly over-hype.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Fair enough
I can’t really stand to listen to that show because the callers are usually so terrible and/or drunk.
by Glorious Mundy on Jul 26, 2010 5:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Are you talking about AN?
Because I notice that you’ve been here for less than a month. Virtually no one here has been saying that the A’s should call up Carter and Taylor that way.
It might help if you could point to some examples of what you’re asserting. None of the main prospect evaluators listed Carter or Taylor as top 5 prospects, IIRC. Kinda hard to be overhyped — much less the most overhyped prospects ever — if the people everyone turns to for prospect evaluations don’t call them A+ prospects.
Also, do you actually know how much Cubs fans or Marlins fans hype their prospects?
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Bring in a guy who is batting below the minor-league average to replace one of the two best hitters on the A’s?
I thought we were bringing him up for a potential OF gig.
Where else have I seen such a popular idea that is so incredibly bad?
There’s a band called Nickelback.
the same people tend to go on evidence-free rants against Barton and Cust
I don’t think anyone on AN is ranting against Barton, and most of the Cust-haters either have been won over (like me) or have bottom-lined into obscurity.
Indeed I’m not sure in any part of society during my long life that I have ever seen such a bizarre mass delusion.
I think when you talk in such grandiose terms about a disagreement over baseball, you kind of alienate everybody.
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Jul 26, 2010 6:26 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
There’s a band called Nickelback.
Well played.
by danmerqury on Jul 26, 2010 6:28 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Bringing him up to the OF
has not been a common proposal, as Carter’s primary position is 1B and he has often been proposed as a DH. BTW, how often has Carter played OF in AAA? Has A’s management actually seriously considered putting Carter in the OF enough to train him for it? It sounds like a potentially great idea to me, but if so we should be talking about switching Carter to OF in his AAA games instead of bringing him up to not only switch to a much tougher league but at the same time switch to a very different position.
And OK, so “any part of society during my long life” is a bit grandiose, but then so is much of the hype about Carter. No need to take it personally and be alienated.
by A's Believer on Jul 26, 2010 9:29 PM PDT up reply actions
that's good to hear
I’d love to see more of it.
by A's Believer on Jul 26, 2010 9:58 PM PDT up reply actions
Elevations.
Just as an excuse to avoid work out of curiosity, I looked up the elevations of all the PCL clubs. In most cases I didn’t find the elevation of the actual stadium, so these are elevation of the city (usually measured at the nearest airport), and in general I just grabbed a number from the first decent source where I found it, so there could be discrepancies and inconsistencies. All figures in feet above sea level.
Pacific Conference
Sacramento – 23
Portland – 27
Fresno – 332
Tacoma – 380
Las Vegas – 2174
Salt Lake City – 4227
Reno – 4412
Colorado Springs – 6531
American Conference
New Orleans – 4
Memphis – 332
Nashville – 599
Round Rock – 735
Iowa (Des Moines) – 957
Omaha – 983
Oklahoma City – 1295
Albuquerque – 5352
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Interesting numbers, thanks
Here are elevations of airports at major league cities not obviously near sea level:
Phoenix — 1132
Denver - 5883 1026
Atlanta -
Kansas City — 1026
St Louis - 605 792
Cleveland -
Chicago - 619 639
Detroit -
Minneapolis — 841
Dallas - 603 723
Milwaukee -
So in the PCL half the ball parks are over 2,000 feet while in the major leagues only one ball park is over 1,200 feet.
by A's Believer on Jul 26, 2010 5:31 PM PDT up reply actions
those strikeouts are odd artifacts of cutting and pasting from a PDF, not intentional
by A's Believer on Jul 26, 2010 5:32 PM PDT up reply actions
I only saw five ballparks over 2,000 in iglew's post.
And only six that were over 1,000.
On average, the lists don’t look insanely different.
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Jul 26, 2010 6:30 PM PDT up reply actions
I think they do look very different.
Las Vegas is significantly higher than any MLB park other than Colorado. And Salt Lake City, Reno and Colorado Springs are way higher. That’s four out of eight teams in the conference that are really very high. It supports the idea that there is a significant effect on the away numbers of River Cats hitters.
The other conference seems pretty normal except for Albuquerque, which is also crazy high.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
St. Joseph, you’re including the American Conference, whereas I only counted the Pacific. Does anybody have a stat on the proportion of games the Rivercats play against teams of each conference?
by A's Believer on Jul 26, 2010 9:41 PM PDT up reply actions
I thought New Orleans was below sea level.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 26, 2010 6:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Zephyr Field is actually in Metairie.
Wikipedia says 3 ft for Metairie. (I was off by 25%!)
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Ah, ok. I guess there's not a lot of difference between 2, 3, 4 feet or a couple below sea level
At least in terms of relevance to baseball. The people of New Orleans certainly care about this sort of thing.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 26, 2010 7:56 PM PDT up reply actions
The airport is outside the city
Because you really wouldn’t want airplanes landing and sitting on wet sediments, you’d have far too much settling. I just visited NO for the first time earlier this year, and the tourist parts are all in the city, and pretty much at sea level or below, but a lot of big stuff (with the exception of the SuperDome, which is downtown) are outside city limits, as far as I can tell, on (slightly) higher ground.
by el generico on Jul 26, 2010 10:29 PM PDT up reply actions
Don't...
Early this afternoon, look for an exclusive interview with a former major leaguer, who played for the A’s and had a hall-of-fame career
…tease me, Bro
It’s here.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Jul 26, 2010 1:14 PM PDT up reply actions
JeffFletcherAOL
#Mets still buyers, looking for a starter (Lilly, Myers) and a reliever, undeterred by recent slide. Have 10 games left vs. #braves
1 minute ago via TweetDeck
Breslow? Wuertz?
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Jul 26, 2010 1:15 PM PDT reply actions
Depends on the return
I mean the Mets themselves are 7.5 games back in their division, so I see no reason why we shouldn’t consider ourselves contenders as well
Frank Cohen
TeamTICKERmlb.com
Your Effortless Baseball Connection
But I don't want to rob our farm for a small chance at the playoffs
If other teams do so than fine.
We should trade them Sheets and Devine!
awwwwww.
Keep in mind, of course, that "the best defense of Derek Jeter's life" ranks somewhere in between "the best fiscal responsibility of Mike Tyson's life" and "the best not-getting-assassinated-ness of James Garfield's life." -FJM
Weeks has been greatly hindered by injuries though
If he wasn’t suffering through all of these injuries, he would have a much better chance to be called up before Cardenas
Frank Cohen
TeamTICKERmlb.com
Your Effortless Baseball Connection
Carter hitting .247 now
Didn’t Billy Owens say something like if he can reach .250, they’ll consider bringing him up?
Carter's hitting .244, and the PCL average is .274
by A's Believer on Jul 26, 2010 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions
I wanna play too!
Over the last 27 days Carter has hit .310/417/637/1.054
Over the last 10 days Carter has hit .410/.489/.821/1.309
Is that above average enough for you?
If he can keep it up for another 3 weeks and Carter doesn’t get a mid August call-up Beane will have some ’splainin to do.
by Mr. Clean Sweep on Jul 27, 2010 1:48 AM PDT up reply actions
Yay!!!!
AAA batting average determines personnel decision! Does the same apply for Travis Buck getting up to .150 and Eric Chavez getting up to 7 vertabrae?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I don't think it's ridiculous that they expect him to get a hit in one out of four plate appearances that aren't walks or sacrifice outs.
We need a guy to put the ball in play and plate some runs.
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Jul 26, 2010 6:33 PM PDT up reply actions
Give it time --
Valley Rigor Mortis take a while to heal.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
If the A's weren't my favorite team before, fielding a team of undead would absolutely bring me on board.
The Oakland ZombA’s would be freakin’ awesome.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 26, 2010 6:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Carter 4-5 today.
2 Double.. 2 Singles.. 1 Strikeout.
"Carter's 25-game hitting streak isn't any normal streak. He's 46 for 97 (.474 average) during the run, adding 16 walks and compiling 81 total bases in the process. I'm out of superlatives for what he's doing." - Kevin Goldstein
Hmm..........
buuuuaaahaha….
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Well, he’s back on the air every Sunday.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Jul 26, 2010 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions
Taylor 1-2
With 2 Walks… a Double and HBP.
"Carter's 25-game hitting streak isn't any normal streak. He's 46 for 97 (.474 average) during the run, adding 16 walks and compiling 81 total bases in the process. I'm out of superlatives for what he's doing." - Kevin Goldstein
So he's dead then?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Well he was HBP early in the game :)
"Carter's 25-game hitting streak isn't any normal streak. He's 46 for 97 (.474 average) during the run, adding 16 walks and compiling 81 total bases in the process. I'm out of superlatives for what he's doing." - Kevin Goldstein
So hes a zombie now.
Still hitting tho.
"Carter's 25-game hitting streak isn't any normal streak. He's 46 for 97 (.474 average) during the run, adding 16 walks and compiling 81 total bases in the process. I'm out of superlatives for what he's doing." - Kevin Goldstein
semi adequate
My opinion is the A’s have an offense made up of role players – guys who are OK but none of them qualify to hit 3, 4 or 5 on a championship team. My thoughts are don’t wed yourself to any of these players and spend this off season looking for quality hitters, regardless of position, who can fill the middle of the lineup.
If you can acquire those individuals then make the supporting parts fit as best as possible, but by all means locate the stars first.
by kimo from kauai on Jul 26, 2010 2:53 PM PDT reply actions
Slightly off topic
I was just looking at some A’s minor league stats and came across this nice looking stat page of Stephen Parker, playing for Stockton in High-A (.297/.398/.500, 15 HRs). He plays 3B and will turn 23 later this year. I’ve never really heard of this guy, anyone know if he’s a legitimate prospect? I know the Cal League is great for hitters, but he is on the young side. Any chance he’s a 3B of the future?
I love my Oakland A's
This sounds interesting
Unless Kouz does the dramatic second half people are hoping for, we are pretty weak at 3B.
by A's Believer on Jul 26, 2010 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions
All I know is that he was taken in the fifth round.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Jul 26, 2010 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions
I think he's legit.
Sickles said this:
Fifth round 3B Stephen Parker out of BYU is respected for his bat and should be able to hit outside of thin air.
and called them C, C+ prospects.
Keep in mind, of course, that "the best defense of Derek Jeter's life" ranks somewhere in between "the best fiscal responsibility of Mike Tyson's life" and "the best not-getting-assassinated-ness of James Garfield's life." -FJM
Everidge was drafted in the 10th round and hit .252/.323/.442 in Stockton.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Jul 26, 2010 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions
Meh -- 23 year old hitting well in Stockton
Nothing to get excited about yet.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Now are you unbelievably excited?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I am now that I've seen that he's fielding .911 at 3B this year!
23 errors in 95 games! Whoohoo!!
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Hmm...Can he play LF? 1B? Somewhere?
Gak.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Same age as our first overall draft pick in 2009...
crap.
Keep in mind, of course, that "the best defense of Derek Jeter's life" ranks somewhere in between "the best fiscal responsibility of Mike Tyson's life" and "the best not-getting-assassinated-ness of James Garfield's life." -FJM
They really need to move him up a level to see how good he actually is.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 26, 2010 6:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Same could be said about several prospects in the minors.
Green, Brown, Cardenas etc etc
"You see, in this world there's two kinds of people, my friend: Those with loaded guns and those who dig. You dig."
Aren't there some underperformers at Sac that could be moved back to AA
Recker? Miller? Heether?
Brown did poorly in Sac and has already been moved back down so doesn’t seem like much of a near-term prospect at this point. alas. Cardenas also did poorly in Sac but is hitting so well in Midland he may soon be worth another try, although he needs to improve his fielding.
by A's Believer on Jul 26, 2010 10:21 PM PDT up reply actions
I still believe in Brown.
He’s still young enough, and he’s tearing up AA so I have faith left. He really needs to be promoted though. His first stint in AAA wasn’t long enough to be conclusive in my book.
I think once Buck comes up, Brown should go to Sac and can play outfield there. Cardenas is a little trickier, as Sogard/Tolleson/McPherson/Baisley are all there. I’d like to see Cardenas take over for McPherson/Baisley at third.
Keep in mind, of course, that "the best defense of Derek Jeter's life" ranks somewhere in between "the best fiscal responsibility of Mike Tyson's life" and "the best not-getting-assassinated-ness of James Garfield's life." -FJM
I think you've just named 4 players
who should not impact Cardenas’ movement at all. I would understand if Weeks were blocking him for now, but if Cardenas is ready for AAA and that’s what’s best for his development, then any of those four should be moved as needed to accommodate.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Pay to the roll
What is the team payroll going to look like next year (including projected arbitration raises and options)?
My estimates have it around 50 mill
Without Gross but with all other arby-eligable players and options of Ellis and Crisp.
What is it this year?
Counting Duke, Sheets, Crisp, Chavez and the money paid out to Taveras?
Counting those guys?
That would be: “highway robbery without a gun.”
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Somehow, the Athletics are still around .500 despite effectively playing with a $27 million dollar roster – about $5 million less than Alex Rodriguez is making by himself.
Yikes. They dubiously included Ellis as an injured player to arrive at that $27 million, but still.
by A's Believer on Jul 26, 2010 9:54 PM PDT up reply actions
well he was out for a chunk of the year. Even so apparently you can fund a 500 team or Arod.
but I think only one comes with Madonna.
The team needs good hitters. Whether or not they're power hitters is irrelevent. - lenscrafters and many others.
by designatedforassignment on Jul 27, 2010 10:33 AM PDT up reply actions
I can not help but think that, as someone eluded to earlier, right now is a great time to jump on the Diamondbacks horrible management and money woes
and fleece them out of their talent. Try to grab some of their ‘expensive’ young hitting talent in return for some ‘great’ pitchers such as Masterton, Dinardo and the remnants of Tomko Toys
I would definitely trade them Masterton
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
The Vancouver team
is going to be in Everett next week and I’m hoping to go to a game or two.
Is there anyone there I should watch for?
(BTW, I’m a terrible scout, so don’t expect any real analysis from me.)
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
A couple of our earlier round 2010 draft picks are there.
Most notably, AJ Kirby Jones.
Keep in mind, of course, that "the best defense of Derek Jeter's life" ranks somewhere in between "the best fiscal responsibility of Mike Tyson's life" and "the best not-getting-assassinated-ness of James Garfield's life." -FJM
Melissa Lockard oakclubhouse
AJ Kirby-Jones has hit a grandslam for Vancouver. His 5th HR.
2 minutes ago via web
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Jul 26, 2010 9:55 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm good,
I know.
Keep in mind, of course, that "the best defense of Derek Jeter's life" ranks somewhere in between "the best fiscal responsibility of Mike Tyson's life" and "the best not-getting-assassinated-ness of James Garfield's life." -FJM
Yeah
Tony Thompson (6th Round)
AJ Kirby-Jones (9th Round)
Wade Kirkland (11th Round)
by bakerbeachboy on Jul 27, 2010 1:56 AM PDT up reply actions
Buchholz is getting hit harder.
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Jul 26, 2010 7:43 PM PDT up reply actions
I take it back, he's just pitching badly.
He somehow snuck out of that bases-loaded nobody-out top of the second, not unlike Haren sneaking out of runners at second and third with one out in the bottom of the first.
Let’s all be very thankful that fans of the Red Sox and Angels get to watch their pitchers play disappointingly and their offenses fail to convert opportunities into runs.
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Jul 26, 2010 7:50 PM PDT up reply actions
Woah.
Are you sure we didn’t just trade for him?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Of course, that means the Angels
are automatically obliged to go on a run of something like 19-3.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
LoL @ The Halos
"Carter's 25-game hitting streak isn't any normal streak. He's 46 for 97 (.474 average) during the run, adding 16 walks and compiling 81 total bases in the process. I'm out of superlatives for what he's doing." - Kevin Goldstein
Since I take it that there is enthusiasm for this thread
Should I make this a series and take a look at the rest of the AL West as well, or keep it as it is?
I'd read anything you write.
I’m pretty sure I speak for everyone when I say I love your work. It’s always thorough and intelligent.
Keep in mind, of course, that "the best defense of Derek Jeter's life" ranks somewhere in between "the best fiscal responsibility of Mike Tyson's life" and "the best not-getting-assassinated-ness of James Garfield's life." -FJM
by travdog6 on Jul 26, 2010 9:57 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Another impetus on having a good team in 2011
with the Moneyball moving coming out, it’d be sure a great thing to have a good team to go along with it, since it will be talking up the A’s no doubt.
I think we will be a playoof team in 2012.
2011 a lot of things have to go just right.
"Carter's 25-game hitting streak isn't any normal streak. He's 46 for 97 (.474 average) during the run, adding 16 walks and compiling 81 total bases in the process. I'm out of superlatives for what he's doing." - Kevin Goldstein
Well yes.
I mean if Beane gets Werth in the off season we will be good. Or a similar bat at least.
"Carter's 25-game hitting streak isn't any normal streak. He's 46 for 97 (.474 average) during the run, adding 16 walks and compiling 81 total bases in the process. I'm out of superlatives for what he's doing." - Kevin Goldstein
I think the question is
will carter or taylor be “a similar bat”
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes
We can only hope.
"Carter's 25-game hitting streak isn't any normal streak. He's 46 for 97 (.474 average) during the run, adding 16 walks and compiling 81 total bases in the process. I'm out of superlatives for what he's doing." - Kevin Goldstein
I think "playoof" is an excellent description of the A's playoff runs earlier this decade.
(sorry to make fun of a typo, but it’s a great word!)
Committing a playoof is why Jeremy Giambi is the only player, coach, or manager ever to wear an A's jersey that I don't like, have fond memories of, or feel has any redeeming baseball qualities.
I like Geren more than I like that guy, because Geren was at least pretty good at developing guys in the minors.
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Jul 27, 2010 4:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Sorry, that got long.
My point was that what Jeremy Giambi did in that game against the Yankees should be the definition of “playoof.”
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Jul 27, 2010 4:38 PM PDT up reply actions
I wonder if he spit into his batting gloves
and clapped his hands together before the pitch.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Angels play the Rangers,
now the Red Sox. Can they please stop playing teams I hate? It’s difficult rooting for the Red Sox to win.
Keep in mind, of course, that "the best defense of Derek Jeter's life" ranks somewhere in between "the best fiscal responsibility of Mike Tyson's life" and "the best not-getting-assassinated-ness of James Garfield's life." -FJM
Some interesting Free Agents (or possible ones)
SS Jose Reyes
3B Adrian Beltre
3B Aramis Ramirez
OF Jason Werth
OF Brad Hawpe
SP Javier Vasquez
SP Chris Young
Only Werth and possibly Reyes as a reclamation project of those intrigue me, since Beltre already declined our offer before. Werth looks like the type of guy who will get a 5 year contract that will pay him for what he did during his prime while he performs during his decline. Reyes, if he can get healthy (with the A’s? HaH!) and work with Rickey Henderson again, perhaps can reclaim his past glory and take over at 2nd or short.
a true athletic in the making.
*WARNING!* Playing online multiplayer games may change your: Religion, Sexual Orientation, Race and/or Gender for undetermined periods of time.
We don't need SS or 2B unless they are healthy and stellar
We have Ellis, Pennington, Rosales (all good, none stellar) and Tolleson looking very good in Sac. We desperately need a proven very good and healthy OF, and we will, alas, need to upgrade to a better 3B unless Kouz substantially improves in the second half as many expect.
Alas, Ramirez like Kouz is having a bad year at 3B. Same with Hawpe in OF. .425 SLG with half the games in Coors Field is not very good.
by A's Believer on Jul 26, 2010 10:35 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't think I'd go after any of those guys.
We’re good at SS, Beltre is coming off a good offensive year, and the amount he will be paid is more than I’d be willing to spend. Ramirez is intriguing, but I’m ok with Kouz. Werth is good, but I share your concern. And the rest are pretty meh.
Keep in mind, of course, that "the best defense of Derek Jeter's life" ranks somewhere in between "the best fiscal responsibility of Mike Tyson's life" and "the best not-getting-assassinated-ness of James Garfield's life." -FJM
and that is exactly why I want go to after Crawford
he’s the only one who looks like a good bet
*WARNING!* Playing online multiplayer games may change your: Religion, Sexual Orientation, Race and/or Gender for undetermined periods of time.
Reyes would be a tempting option at 2B
I have no idea what his injury/health outlook is though.
The Mets have an $11 million option on him for 2011 or a 500K buyout. What do you think they do?
by bakerbeachboy on Jul 27, 2010 2:01 AM PDT up reply actions
Patterson's is going to get DFA'ed by Red Sox very soon
The guy cannot do anything right. Pops up bunt for an out. Cannot field, cannot throw, cannot hit. Cannot last.
I think Patterson is one of those players where
you don’t fully realize how bad he is until he actually plays for you.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
"fun" is pronounced like "Kahn"?
I’ve been saying it wrong all these years! How fahn.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Should we do what the Angels did?
That is, acquire a player (in our case, a Hitter), who can help us this year if we do catch the Rangers, but more importantly, can help us in the next couple years to come. A hitter either under control or signed for the next 2.5 to 3 years.
Choo and Sizemoore of the Indians come to mind at once, though Sizemore is out for the year. The Rockies are considering selling, is there anyone they have (buy Cargo back? Beg for Ian Stewart or Troy Tulo?
*WARNING!* Playing online multiplayer games may change your: Religion, Sexual Orientation, Race and/or Gender for undetermined periods of time.
I'd love to do what the Angels did.
However, the biggest part of what they did (to me at least) was give up nothing big in their immediate future. I can’t see us getting a serious hitter without giving up something like a Taylor or a Carter, etc.
Keep in mind, of course, that "the best defense of Derek Jeter's life" ranks somewhere in between "the best fiscal responsibility of Mike Tyson's life" and "the best not-getting-assassinated-ness of James Garfield's life." -FJM
I was hoping we'd get to 1000 comments
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Strickouts!
Its why he was left off the roster.
Discuss.
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