TK interviews BB : "Right now, nobody’s happy"
by ST on Jul 21, 2010 3:27 AM PDT
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PrintInteresting interview with BB from the Mercury News' Tim Kawakami . There is also a follow up column from TK in the Merc as well. In a nutshell, by the tone of Beane's answers, he sounds exhausted by the whole stadium/venue/move ordeal. You can tell he's not happy (especially trying to lure or maintain good players to the A's), but at the same time trying to be diplomatic and assuring to the fanbase as any GM/owner should be.
Some other interesting excerpts:
Are we rebuilding? No, but I think we’re building right now and I think we’re heading in a good direction.
If we’re playing in this stadium in five years, a lot of these players won’t be here. Fact. Shouldn’t surprise anybody. There’s no other way to operate here without doing that.
You’re not going to make anybody happy. Right now, nobody’s happy. And that’s why some direction one way or the other is going to help everyone. Not just the people who follow the team but the people who run the team.
This is my 21st year, 22nd year in the organization, so I’ve been through cycles where we couldn’t develop pitchers. Now we can’t develop position players.
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Is this true?
If we’re playing in this stadium in five years, a lot of these players won’t be here. Fact. Shouldn’t surprise anybody. There’s no other way to operate here without doing that.
I think there are some people here that think that the team can get the players and keep the team in the venue since the organization makes money hand-over-fist. I’m not one of those people. I’m just surprised that Tim didn’t attempt to call Beane out this. I would have enjoyed reading Beane’s reaction.
First you'd have to prove that the team makes money "hand-over-fist."
I don’t think it is, but no one has seen the books. Even Forbes is guessing at the numbers they pull out.
by LoneStranger on Jul 21, 2010 8:28 AM PDT up reply actions
You can just quote the Forbes numbers and make him say that it's BS
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 21, 2010 9:29 AM PDT up reply actions
The Forbes numbers do not support "hand-over-fist"
They support an average profit that’s typical for a middling ball club and a little low for a similarly sized business venture.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Stupid Forbes.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 21, 2010 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions
Well, I don't think it's possible
We’ve already seen people like Beltre and Scutaro shun the A’s to go play for Boston instead, when it seems like the A’s were willing to give them more money. Instead, they picked a place that has a better ballpark (at least if you want to help your offensive numbers), a much larger fanbase, and a better overall team.
As for the ‘hand over fist’ part, I don’t know if you’re saying that from the perspective of people who think that’s the case, but I’d be pretty surprised if it is true. Sure, it looks like the A’s are turning somewhat of a profit, but I doubt that means they can afford to go throw a bunch of money at multiple players. ‘Hand over fist’ implies they’re rolling in money.
I don’t believe they can go out and buy that big power bat straight up. As it is, from what it sounded like the Sheets signing was partially because the A’s more or less HAD to spend that money on someone.
What concerns me the most is Beane’s comment about the cycles where they couldn’t develop pitchers (which most of us should remember) and now how they can’t develop position players. Why is that? THAT’S a question I would like to see Beane answer.
Is it the draft? That’s not a total crapshoot, because you can certainly get a sense of what a hitter’s ability is with the bat to some extent and project from there, so if they’re projecting wrong that’s an issue.
Is it player development? We’ve seen some pretty big question marks there as many hitters fall off. Even Carter and Taylor have slumped this year but there have been some better signs lately.
Is it injuries? That’s not just a problem their hitters in the organization have faced.
All of the above? How much accountability are people taking, and more importantly, what are they trying to do different to pull themselves out of that cycle? It’s not that hard to develop both pitching and hitting at the same time. I think their problem is they’ve focused too much on one end of it over the other, both when they struggled to develop pitchers and now when they’re struggling to develop hitters. There needs to be more of a balance, but we can clearly see how the current method is “Pitch well, defend well, hope to hit just enough to win.”
Last of the Ninth - Photography
by Flashfire on Jul 21, 2010 8:36 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
The way I take the "we can't develop pitchers . . . we can't develop position players"
is that this is BB saying “this is what everyone says about us” and not “this is the truth about us.”
if that’s true, his actual message is more like “we have proved we know how to develop both, but with limited resources you’re not always going to get the results you want.”
If i’m right about the message, I don’t agree with it. I don’t think they’ve proven they can actually develop position players.
This partly because their best position players either have been proven steroid users (tejada / giambi) or have had career-derailing injuries (chavez), but mostly because it’s been a while since any all star caliber position players came up thru the system and onto the major league team.
Your third place Oakland A's.
by eastcoasta'sfan on Jul 21, 2010 9:20 AM PDT up reply actions
That's a good point
And I think the A’s are starting to at least try to draft position players a little differently, going over slot and things like that, but we probably won’t know how effective it is for a couple years.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
I interpreted it to mean that they have been unsuccessful in producing home-grown hitters recently.
Probably due to who they’ve drafted/traded for and some bad luck.
by LoneStranger on Jul 21, 2010 9:56 AM PDT up reply actions
and it's magnified x1000
because we can’t afford the cream of the crop through FA. I still wish he would go after more “average-ish” players instead of try to get lucky with someone coming off of an injury or using a veteran. For every Frank Thomas there is at least an Eric Karros and a Mike Piazza.
Spending time with my nephew and the AN Crew on July 10th...PRICELESS!
by ohtobe21likehuston on Jul 21, 2010 10:11 AM PDT up reply actions
Isn't the problem that we have a team of average people?
We need the above average guys to help lift the average ones up.
by LoneStranger on Jul 21, 2010 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions
Sure but I'm mainly talking about the bad FA moves
Overall the draft and trades built this average team. If we had a couple of solid FA’s and kept our pitching together we would have probably won the division this year.
Coco has missed about 70 games this year and his injury history made him a huge risk. Did BB not see that coming or was he praying that it wouldn’t?
Spending time with my nephew and the AN Crew on July 10th...PRICELESS!
by ohtobe21likehuston on Jul 21, 2010 10:34 AM PDT up reply actions
Well, back to what I said,
the ‘bad’ FA moves are meant as a way to get above average people on the team. They don’t really want to come otherwise. We could overpay, but that only works for so long on the current payroll budget.
Two of the advantages of the new stadium would be that it’s probably more of a hitters park than the Coli, and the increased revenue would allow us to perhaps overpay on those FA bats to lure them to the west coast and fill in the holes of a team built by smart GMing. (And the revenue would help sustain a team built like this for a longer period of time.)
If the FA signing works, then we’ve got an above average player on the team. If it doesn’t work, then we have an average person on the team. That’s why I think signing FA average players doesn’t really help much since they’re going to be average anyway.
BTW, I’m not trying to make this a stadium debate, just that I think it can help make the risky FA signings less common.
by LoneStranger on Jul 21, 2010 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions
I agree
Hell we spent money on Chavez and look where it got us!
Spending time with my nephew and the AN Crew on July 10th...PRICELESS!
by ohtobe21likehuston on Jul 21, 2010 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions
Right. We should never sign anyone named Chavez again.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 21, 2010 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions
Damn, no Hugo Chavez then.
"You know, a long time ago being crazy meant something. Nowadays everybody's crazy."
-Charles Manson
by kaweahkaweah on Jul 21, 2010 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions
No
Going after average players is what has been Beane’s problem with FAs. Piazza was an “average” DH. Loaiza was an “average” SP. Kotsay was an “average” CF. And so on and so forth.
The beauty of the Frank Thomas was two things: a massive upside and no risk. No other FA has shown that. Piazza and Sheets were both upside plays but neither was cheap and so they represented a lot of risk. Kotsay pre-injuries seemed to be no upside but little risk. Oops on that one.
What the A’s need is to go after one top-tier FA every once in five years or so. Perhaps that talent is homegrown, perhaps it’s an import. But a guy like Teixeira or CC are the best successes in FA. Maybe the A’s could go after a guy like Werth this offseason.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
I think it's wrong to say Frank Thomas was no risk.
He worked out great (and also is one of the most awesome guys ever), but it’s only a lack of imagination that makes us think that move couldn’t have gone wrong. He could have turned out to be washed up and/or perpetually semi-injured, just good enough that the manager keeps putting him in the lineup but still bad enough to hurt the team and block others. That is exactly what has gone wrong with other trades. The return of Jason Giambi, for example, wasn’t a failure because of the money spent. It was a failure because he was bad and got in the way. Frank Thomas might have done that as well. He didn’t, but he might have.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
He had an incentive-laden contract, which I think was the low-risk part.
by LoneStranger on Jul 22, 2010 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes, but again
what made the bad signings bad was not the wasted money so much as clogging up our roster and being put in the lineup anyway even though they sucked.
I know it shouldn’t be that way, and in theory the manager ought to play whoever he likes, but the reality is it’s a lot easier to bench Aaron Cunningham or Josh Donaldson for being mediocre than to bench Jason Giambi or Nomar Garciaparra.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
THIS
What the A’s need is to go after one top-tier FA every once in five years or so. Perhaps that talent is homegrown, perhaps it’s an import. But a guy like Teixeira or CC are the best successes in FA. Maybe the A’s could go after a guy like Werth this offseason.
I’m not sure Werth is the guy, but I like the idea. This addresses the problem of perceived dearth of name talent on the team, and also makes the team better.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!
by cuppingmaster on Jul 23, 2010 7:27 AM PDT up reply actions
What if that guy gets hurt?
Like, oh, Eric Chavez?
by LoneStranger on Jul 23, 2010 9:00 AM PDT up reply actions
Are there teams, though
That reliably produce both good pitching AND good hitting prospects to the extent that the A’s produce either one or the other? Or do the A’s simply never hedge their bets in drafts and other teams do – i.e., the A’s do pitching heavy drafts some years and then hitting heavy drafts in other years?
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!
by cuppingmaster on Jul 21, 2010 9:37 AM PDT up reply actions
The measure of success is either (1) World Champions
that is, winning the World Series, or (2) making the playoffs. Either way, with free agency and inequities throughout MLB, the victorious World Series winners (since 2000) have often plunged soon after their victories, not repeating (White Sox, St Louis, Angels) in spite of free agent signing, up and coming players, filling the gaps in their lineups, etc. To me, it’s akin to dumping a box of marbles on a rug, noticing a cluster of four, and saying, “Here, these marbles successfully clustered. Let’s find out what smoothness the other marbles did not have and why they didn’t cluster.” The reason they didn’t “cluster” is that the elements that result in success randomly weave their way through good MLB teams, and if they just so happen to coincide, a championship results. If Coco Crisp had not played in the final exhibition game against the Giants, where would the A’s be? FAs, draft picks, injuries, scheduling, flying, other team deficiencies (where would the A’s have finished in 2006, if Seattle had not lost 17 of 19 to the A’s…and why did they??)
Going from a “good team” to a successful team (pick (1), or (2)) despite, or, because everyone can see everyone else’s players, development techniques, contracts for FA, is simply a random accident, IMO.
Blez: Most folks seem to believe that the big flaw with the 2010 Oakland A's will be the lack of any power.
Beane: They believe it because it's true.
by One won lost won on Jul 21, 2010 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions
HR & Doubles frequency are no accident;
Bill James works for BoSox.
Bill pioneered the engineered roster.
Bill James
123 HRs
222 DBLs
Billy Beane
61 HRs
164 DBLs
You think perhaps
JD Drew, David Ortiz, Adrian Beltre have something to do with that? Because all were FAs the A’s couldn’t sign but Boston could. Youk should be an A of course.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
The number of doubles and HRs
is not the “measure of success”. Boston is currently leading the league in runs scored, but is that what you’ll hear in October 2010 through February 2011, if the Red Sox do not make the playoffs? “We scored more than anyone!!”
??
Hardly one for the trophy case. Not sure if they give a trophy for “Team HRs” either.
Second thing is, you’re comparing a “good team”, the Red Sox, to an average-at-best team, Oakland. Compare HRs, runs scored, doubles, Boston to New York, another “good team”.
I believe the A’s have the start of a good team. Note that the average age for Boston is four years older for their team. Two more years of maturity, and the Athletics will be approaching the top six teams IMO.
Blez: Most folks seem to believe that the big flaw with the 2010 Oakland A's will be the lack of any power.
Beane: They believe it because it's true.
by One won lost won on Jul 23, 2010 11:03 PM PDT up reply actions
I think you misinterpret why some didn't sign here.
Beltre and Scutaro specifically. I think it has less to do with the venue (especially for Scutaro) and more to do with the quality of the team that will surround them and the potential to win.
Bob Geren... Jackie Moore without the personality.
I'd rather play in the AL West than the AL East if I want to get to the playoffs.
Pam liked my old sig better.
I'd rather play for the Red Sox than the A's if I want to win
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 21, 2010 8:13 PM PDT up reply actions
Swisher sure isn't crying
Billy made and traded that horrible contract in 2007 I think; about 70 HRs ago.
07:$0.7M,
08:$3.5M,
09:$5.3M,
10:$6.75M,
11:$9M,
12:$10.25M club option ($1M buyout)
It's very hard to pick up
on your random venting. It looks like you have a lot of issues with the team. I would suggest articulating it in a constructive fanpost criticizing what you think they should do. At the present, all i see is dwelling on past moves that in hindsight, didn’t work out for longer term success.
btw – swisher also has a short porch at YS which i’m sure he’d prefer anyday of the year to the Coliseum. and that “horrible” contract was actually a steal for a 35 hr up and coming multi-positional player.
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
I like the bats we got this year.
A lot potential and I have not felt that way much in the last decade.
The A's are a fairly quiet team, and then there's Ben Sheets. Sheets, as a kid, must have been thrown out of every library in Baton Rouge. ~ Scott Ostler
Given the fact
that MLBPA didn’t call out the A’s (unlike the Marlins) is a tell-tale sign that the A’s aren’t pocketing everything they’re earning. They’ve made a valid attempt at taking the profits and putting it back into the organization in one way (free agency) or another (international signings). At least that’s my perspective…
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
by ST on Jul 21, 2010 9:52 AM PDT up reply actions
Club med for chavez, Krispies, Sheets
has that going for it.
I still prefer players that actually………………………………..play.
Beane lost it years ago, BB should retire
His drafts stink, he trades power hitters before they hit for power, his free agents stink, …who said the A’s can only go after guys that missed the entire previous season?
LOL
This one is interesting too
So at least from a long-term standpoint, I think there are some guys here that are going to be here for a long time.
Pennington’s another one, a position player. I think Barton’s getting there. ‘Zuk’s obviously there—Kurt Suzuki.
We do need some position players that fill that other side of the diamond for us. But the pitching staff I feel great about not only now but long term as well.
So, Pennington is established and staying but Barton isn’t? I think we’d all agree that Barton is having a superior offensive year, but I wonder why he chose to phrase it like.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!
Maybe he still feels that Barton is developing.
Or, perhaps he’s hinting (intentionally or not) that Carter could bump Barton out. If that’s the case, then it’s probably Carter than needs to prove something and not Barton.
by LoneStranger on Jul 21, 2010 9:59 AM PDT up reply actions
Barton is still developing
imo, he still hasn’t reached his maximum potential.
by sf drift king on Jul 23, 2010 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Maybe it also has to do with position
Barton as a 1b isn’t that much better, it at all, than Pennington at short, where offense isn’t necessarily needed AS much.
by asyouwish33 on Jul 21, 2010 10:10 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, that was my first thought
Who knows though. Just an interesting tidbit, IMO.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!
by cuppingmaster on Jul 21, 2010 10:11 AM PDT up reply actions
Penny is the AL leader in WAR
Barton isnt in the top 5 for 1B…..but the expectations are higher for him. I think thats what he’s getting at.
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
*AL WAR for SS
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
Pennington's also the most improved player each of the last 2 seasons, and his makeup
is supposedly off the charts — like Chanel. Barton has improved and is a decent 1B, but right now he’s Bruce Bochte. He has a ways to go before he’s Mark Grace, let alone Mattingly, Clark or Hernandez.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 21, 2010 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions
I really like the way Pennington has come back from a horrendous slump
I think he actually hit the .200 mark before turning it around. Pretty impressive.
his babip in that time frame was like .220
just hit a run of bad luck, thats all. penny looks like the real deal.
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
This interview should be depressing fro any A's fan.
Well, the ones who want to win, at least.
Beane comments basically translate to us being in a perpetual holding pattern of mediocrity and suckitude until a new stadium is in place. I am not excited, nor am I encouraged.
Bob Geren... Jackie Moore without the personality.
Thank you 10X
Why does Beane even bother to come?
Basically he is whining; Oakland won’t let me win, it’s Oakland’s fault….
If it wasn’t for Oakland where would Beane be?
The “WhinerBawl” act is becoming old.
I always take what BB says with a grain of salt,
because he has a history of not being totally honest or forward with the media. But man, is this fucking sad.
Keep in mind, of course, that "the best defense of Derek Jeter's life" ranks somewhere in between "the best fiscal responsibility of Mike Tyson's life" and "the best not-getting-assassinated-ness of James Garfield's life." -FJM
Yea, it's a bit depressing to see it there in print
but is Beane saying anything we didn’t already know? I thought it had been pretty much accepted that unless the team finds a way to seriously increase revenue they can’t afford to hand out long term contracts for big money. I mean it’s been that way for a decade now, once a guy starts getting to the range where he can make 8 figures a year the A’s can’t really afford to keep him around, especially on a long term deal.
by OkayJay81 on Jul 21, 2010 3:41 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Beane breaks too many logical rules:
1. Free Agents that have missed a lot of games from injuries are likely MISS GAMES! LOL
2. If you draft young power hitting prospects and trade them before they turn 27, they will hit those HRs somewhere else.
3. Stacking the fielders defensively in the coliseum (foul areas) will beat a lot of bad teams at home and showcase pitching. But sucks otherwise.
4. Wolffishers want out of Oakland so why would they try to field a winner. …did they give Fremont taxpayers that land back yet? They should.
5 It isn’t Oakland or the A’s that players are shunning. It is the horrible ownership and FO, they are depressing! LOL
Yea, I wouldn't call those logical rules
But judging by your earlier posts I don’t think I want to even attempt to talk logic with you. You seem to have a lot of pent up frustration with this organization so… have fun with that.
Ok, fine, I'll do it.
- Free agents that have missed games are the only ones that will sign with us. We’ve offered certain guys more money than other teams and still had them sign elsewhere.
- They’ll hit those HRs elsewhere, if they develop their power. Honestly, each trade has to be looked at on it’s own because power hitting hasn’t always been the weakness in the team.
- Defense does more than just help at home.
- Sure, they want out of Oakland. I don’t think that’s stopping them from ‘fielding a winner.’ What is keeping the team from being a contender is the strategy that they are using in order to make sure the team doesn’t lose money. You can dump lots of money into the team but if you can’t get the revenue year in and year out, you’re not going to be able to sustain the FA signings and studs brought through the system. They aren’t running a charity here.
- I really don’t think the players are shunning the fans or Oakland or the ownership/FO. They just want to go out there and do their job with fans in the seats. Yep. I bet they do feel depressed.
Once the stadium deal is decided and ground is broken, the ownership will open up the pocketbook, knowing that the revenue will follow. We’ll be able to keep the guys we’ve brought up through the minors. We’ll have more fans in the seats and the players will feed off of that. The FAs will sign, seeing the commitment to win and the environment of the new stadium and the other players they’ll get to play with.
by LoneStranger on Jul 21, 2010 7:57 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't buy #1. Giambi and Tejada would have signed in Oakland if they got the right deal.
I bet Crawford would sign in Oakland if the money was good enough….it’s just that it would take more than it would with a better team.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 21, 2010 8:15 PM PDT up reply actions
Tejada yes. Giambi no.
Giambi played Oakland for a better deal from the Yankees, but he wanted to go to New York all along.
Bob Geren... Jackie Moore without the personality.
I agree, with you and I should have mentioned this too.
There is usually number that, if high enough, would buy any player. Unfortunately we don’t have that kind of money.
by LoneStranger on Jul 21, 2010 9:19 PM PDT up reply actions
I've always said that a good team could win in a sandlot...
…and the A’s have won in Oakland before, and could win again. I suspect FAs see more clearly than fans do that present management isn’t 100% committed to winning.
Bob Geren... Jackie Moore without the personality.
They could, I don't disagree. The problem is sustaining that for longer than a few years.
I don’t think that management is not committed to winning. I think they’re committed to building something they can sustain. They have a plan, and a big part of that is the stadium.
by LoneStranger on Jul 21, 2010 9:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Lone Stranger! Thanks for the comments
1. Agree, but it was not like this before Wolffisher. Why even bring in Holliday, Krispies, Sheets? Why not spend the money holding onto guys instead?
2. I was talking about young prospects with Power Potential . Billy gets them then ships them off before the power years. What is that? Barton is next. LOL
3. It is Billy’s pitching factory, we grow pitchers for other franchises. That defense helps grow them (confidence). Those other wins are basically rally inducing errors by the other teams. Those are not caused by our pitching or defense.
4. Yes, yes, yes. Priority one is get out of Oakland, build a stadium, …then sell the team to others. LOL They didn’t buy an Oakland team to create a winner here or anywhere, Never intended to and never will. They appreciate you agreeing with the “PR reasoning”. FYI: Wolff/Seligg’s buddy uses the same MO, Expos we need a new stadium or we leave. Seligg just has MLB “buy” the Expos, situates them in Washington (Nationals). and awards Loria the Florida Marlins. See any trends here?
5 One recent example: Holliday. BB brings him in thinking he’ll do a nice mid-season trade to a contender. Boras’ Holiday dogs it half the year at Oakland. Cards end up with Holiday on the cheap who is one of the top offensive players in MLB for the C A R D S. Holliday shows us exactly what how MLB looks at this organization and Beane, it’s shaper.
6. …and Geren? MLB leader in DL players for how many years now? …it is a real good thing he isn’t in the NL. …never happens. LOL
7. Stadiums aren’t winners, people are, or aren’t. Don’t buy into the Billy whine; It’s Oakland’s fault, I can’t make a winner, it’s all because of Oakland. It’s not me.. whine, whine, whine
When Zito, Hudson, Mulder were mowing down lineups and one of them made a mistake that cost us in runs the others would just tell him “Wear it”. Beane sure didn’t start the saying.
Hi,
You need a set of players to compete. The problem is that there might be holes with what players you have currently. You either trade to fill them or sign them or draft them. These ‘reclamation’ projects can either be those missing pieces, or depending on the current market, act as placeholders that can then be traded for what you need. I think Holliday, and perhaps Sheets to a lesser degree were/are mainly placeholders. If they end up being that piece that pushes the team over, that’s great, and if not, we’ll use them to get what we need.
The problem is that unless you have the money to spend on FA players, you need to get cost-controlled young players. In order to compete, you’d need a good group of cost-controlled players who are all peaking within the same timeframe. If some are peaking and the others are not, then you either sit in mediocrity, getting nothing for them when they leave for FA, or you use the value of some of them to trade for younger players and go backwards a bit in the cycle. That’s what we’ve been stuck in.
Some of your other points are not actually points but conspiracy theories, so there is no point in arguing them.
As far as Holliday is concerned, the guy came over from the NL. It takes some players half a year to get used to a new league. He wasn’t traded for peanuts either. We got Wallace for him, someone who could possibly be the long-term solution to 3B, a place where we have a hole. We got a look at him and agreed with what other teams were saying; he’s not really 3B material. We traded him for Taylor, another piece that can be a long-term power solution in OF.
I’m pretty sure Geren is not the cause of the DL problems, not sure why you’re blaming him.
And finally, I think you should read this regarding what contributes to fan attendance. In short, a new stadium can get you about 10k more fans per game that first year and 4.5 million more fans over the span of ten years before the effect is minimized. The stadium isn’t the end-all-be-all solution, however it is a great kick-start for a franchise that can use the revenue to start signing FAs and their own players long term to keep those new fans who came to see the stadium.
by LoneStranger on Jul 21, 2010 9:58 PM PDT up reply actions
Seligg awarded the A's to the Stadium Builders instead of the Team Builders:
When Budd Seligg chose Wolffisher over the Joe Morgan group it started this disaster.
1. BS chose the “Stadium Builders” Wolff & Fisher’s group.
2. BS turned away the Local group that wanted to build up the “Oakland A’s” for the east bay community, the Joe Morgan Group.
- Beane has seen 3 million annual attendence here, he just wants his 3%-5% of profits at this point, IMO he was and still is over rated.
- Seligg was an auto salesman, then he ran the AAA Brewers Franchise for the NYY. – Seligg’s term as Commisioner is littered with Failed franchises, the steroid & HGH eras, and Senate hearings. This is his legacy, this is truly what Seligg’s watch has done to MLB. Suckitude to the max.
I’m one of the lucky fans to see Finley’s World beaters, real Billy Ball, LaRussa’s roster masterpieces, and Grady Fuson’s scouting of draft picks that blossomed in the Beane era. Beane and Fuson had “troubles” in those days. Fuson went to Texas, Texas hitting was quite awesome after the A’s had peaked..
Billy! I wish you well where ever you go, …just go. …cut bait Billy, …SoCal and soccer are calling you, …they have been for years.
Fuson's back now.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 21, 2010 8:17 PM PDT up reply actions
...and well he should be
Fuson invested a lot of time and energy in assembling some of the better A’s line-ups.
Whoa whoa whoa, you would actually want Joe Morgan's group running the team instead of Beane during the Moneyball years?
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jul 21, 2010 8:56 PM PDT up reply actions
Beane sat on rosters, ...year after year
We had a nucleus that required very little.
…I remember Steinbrenner beating Billy to signing Canseco, George signed the only FA bat that NY pitching was concerned about, for next to nothing.
…Canseco sitting on that NYY bench, for all to see: A’s players, A’s dugout, Billy, all the fans and the national audiance to see.
….and never taking an at bat?
…the cameras showing Canseco flicking the bat this way and sitting on the NYY bench. The announcers going back to him and reminding the nat’l audience ’It’s game# __ and Canseco still hasn’t had an at bat. “Boy! I bet the A’s would like his bat in that line up!”
Billy procrastinated too long to get the help to push us over, not once, but every year we made the playoffs.
The playoffs are not in Billy’s planning, not in his calcs.
One and done, one and done.
The one player he signed that lifted this team deep into the playoffs was Frank Thomas at DH
Billy was totally against signing “Big” Frank but went along with FO consensus and other advice so the famous tiered performance contract finally satisfied both BB and Frank.
You would think seeing that bat in a BB line-up would be etched in for a lifetime! You see, when your lineups are defense oriented you damned well better have the best DH in MLB. Spend the money there, Not Piazza, not Justice, not Krispies, not everyone else that hobbles in the door.
The Best DH! What is so hard?
I like the post season when lineups are that good. Procrastinating cost us.
Billy GM’d that also.
RE: Joe Morgan Group. Yes I prefer local owners that want to make the A’s winners right where they are and would not whine about how they can’t win in Oakland, and it is Oakland’s fault I can’t win……………..such BS
FYI: Beane did not buy any of the A’s. Beane makes a nice % from profits though. Seligg awarded the A’s to his buddy Mr Wolff over the local group that believed they could win here. The influx of Mr Fuson’s scouting was already in the pipeline. Why would Oaklanders owning an Oakland team bother you?
Umm 3 words for you....
Fire Joe Morgan
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
What are you talking about?
Beane made moves all the time to add to the roster when they were a playoff team. How do you think they ended up gutting their farm system so much in the process? It’s not Beane’s fault the team failed in the ALDS all those years. He put together excellent teams.
I don’t think you have any idea what you’re talking about, what with all these strange conspiracy theories you’re tossing out.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Flagged
obvious pro-Oakland troll (signed on today). What exactly does this have to do with the OT besides you venting?
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
by ST on Jul 21, 2010 9:03 PM PDT up reply actions
The article clearly states: "No one is happy"
I’m basicly pointing out that it is what you do with what you have today that makes tomorrow better.
I am pro A’s, not an “Oakland Troll” whatever that means.
This team has resources for improvement, I am a longtime A’s fan and concerned by the “can’t do it” attitude expressed in your article.
How can I help you?
What are those resources they have for improvement?
by LoneStranger on Jul 21, 2010 10:09 PM PDT up reply actions
One of the best (lowest) leases in MLB
MLB shared revenues.
One of the lowest payrolls in MLB
Seating available for sellouts in key games.
Shared Corporate overlap as owners of many businesses (Fidelity Mutual Funds, The Gap, etc).
Profits from the past and present A’s seasons
Minor leagues system
…that is off the top, Impressive as is, but obviously I don’t know the full extent of them.
Wow, someone with an agenda on where to build a new stadium is a troll?
Interesting.
sock puppets have never successfully defended castles, except when working with squirrels, which would never happen because squirrels know better than to trust sock puppets, except when their nipples have magical powers. -nm
by Leopold Bloom on Jul 22, 2010 8:15 AM PDT up reply actions
Um
when someone shows up out of the blue to post random thoughts one one argument just to spur controversy?
Or is a troll rather someone who posts about feet attire more appropriate?
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
by ST on Jul 22, 2010 8:33 AM PDT up reply actions
pot, kettle.
sock puppets have never successfully defended castles, except when working with squirrels, which would never happen because squirrels know better than to trust sock puppets, except when their nipples have magical powers. -nm
by Leopold Bloom on Jul 22, 2010 8:38 AM PDT up reply actions
Ahem...
when did you join AN again?
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
by ST on Jul 22, 2010 8:45 AM PDT up reply actions
about four months after you.
How often do you talk here when you’re not pushing your pro-San Jose agenda?
sock puppets have never successfully defended castles, except when working with squirrels, which would never happen because squirrels know better than to trust sock puppets, except when their nipples have magical powers. -nm
by Leopold Bloom on Jul 22, 2010 9:07 AM PDT up reply actions
So you were here
circa 2002-2003 during AN 1.0 (#203 or so if i remember correctly)?
How much do I talk here?
comments 806
Sorry, just because I don’t partake in OT socket puppet orgies does it mean i don’t participate on this site. It’s just i’ve been more vocal as of late with the SJ bashing.
And just for you, I’m not only pro-SJ (see http://www.athleticsnation.com/2006/2/14/183950/310 ) or my latest sig below.
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
seriously, stop with the baiting.
Simply because I like to be silly does not make my position on things invalid.
sock puppets have never successfully defended castles, except when working with squirrels, which would never happen because squirrels know better than to trust sock puppets, except when their nipples have magical powers. -nm
by Leopold Bloom on Jul 22, 2010 9:25 AM PDT up reply actions
Why is the comment that you're responding to, baiting?
I only ask because if that’s baiting, why wasn’t your post above?
It seems that it’s okay to write something provactive until it’s not okay to do the same. Where does the line get drawn, when someone’s feelings get hurt? What if the person whose feeling were hurt is seemingly the one that started baiting in the first place? I ask because I’ve been accuse of baiting, as well, even though I don’t think I start it many of the times the charge is levied.
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 22, 2010 10:14 AM PDT up reply actions
I was pointing out that his posts have been consistently pro-San Jose.
He is saying my stance on the issues at hand are invalid because I talk about silly things. I think there’s a pretty clear delineation there, no?
sock puppets have never successfully defended castles, except when working with squirrels, which would never happen because squirrels know better than to trust sock puppets, except when their nipples have magical powers. -nm
by Leopold Bloom on Jul 22, 2010 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions
incorrect
you called me a troll because you think that my posts have been for pro-SJ everything. I found that ironic since all my time on AN since 2002-2003 era, i’ve only known you for your sock-puppet theatre. I’ve also illustrated that i talk more than just pro-SJ as my 2006 post above shows and trying to reinforce the pro-Oakland backers that:
“Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice."
and actually tried to avoid the SJ vs. Oakland controversy (i only typically respond to these types of bs/propoganda and don’t initiate it)….
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
Well-stated.
You are, of course, completely entitled to have your opinion on all these things.
Upon reflection, I would be very excited if the A’s were considering coming to my home town as well, and would probably fight with as much, if not more, vigor than you do.
For whatever reason, I choose to engage with you on this issue and one of the reasons you only know me for my “sock puppet theatre” is because I’m not emotionally equipped to handle serious debate without wanting to harm others.
You are well-informed and come prepared. Please accept my apology if I have offended you by suggesting you’re Lew Wolfe or a member of the SJ CoC.
sock puppets have never successfully defended castles, except when working with squirrels, which would never happen because squirrels know better than to trust sock puppets, except when their nipples have magical powers. -nm
by Leopold Bloom on Jul 22, 2010 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions
谢谢你
^^ Would throw a fist pump at you if i weren’t 5000 miles away ;)
As I said many times, I don’t care where the A’s get a new venue (although I prefer SJ due to my locality), I just want them to get one, period!
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
by ST on Jul 22, 2010 8:28 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm in Santa Rosa.
sock puppets have never successfully defended castles, except when working with squirrels, which would never happen because squirrels know better than to trust sock puppets, except when their nipples have magical powers. -nm
by Leopold Bloom on Jul 22, 2010 10:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, I do see your point there.
ST should be able to continue to post pro-SJ views, though, and perhaps also shouldn’t be to quick to throw ‘flags out on the field’ for others that want to express their views as well.
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 22, 2010 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions
You have to understand
i was recently flagged for having these SJ views….or as the moderator put it, posting something that could alienate/tick off a portion of the fanbase. Hence, i was told that the same would apply for pro-Oaklanders as well…
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
Are you serious?
You were flagged for that? It didn’t result in a ‘strike’, did it? Which post was this? And did the mod tell you in private e-mail or in the thread itself?
It was a strike...
Your comment was flagged by numerous AN community members and voted on as a strike by multiple moderators. Insulting an entire community (Oakland) that you knows represents many of AN’s readers, is attacking and inflammatory and really baited people in that thread.
Fair enough. Does this mean the same will hold true for Oaklanders who try to insult San Jose folks?
Of course! Flag the comment(s)
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
Dang!
I’d like to read what you wrote.
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 22, 2010 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions
I was a little more
demonstrative then before, since i was responding to a direct attack on SJ residents:
Let’s break it down further with this Pro-Oakland BS shall we
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
by ST on Jul 22, 2010 1:17 PM PDT up reply actions
I can only assume that they think...
…that the racist terms were what did it. I wonder how many didn’t realize that your word choice was more using a charictature of things that have actually been stated [I’m guessing here] by the Keep-Them-In-Oakland crowd.
If it was just the fact that they disagreeed with your position so adamantently that the felt the need to moderate your voice on the matter through CGV policy, then that’s pretty intolerant.
God I hope it was the former.
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 22, 2010 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions
you should have posted this in a CT thread, anything goes in there
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones."
-BB 07/27/05
as long as you remember the subject line
;-)
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
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