DFA's Between a Rock and a Hard Place: Part 2 Extensions
One of my main frustrations with the A's recently is the poor personnel moves that they have made and how they have repeatedly left the A's in lose lose propositions. It has gotten to the point that I think that a change in the GM's office may be necessary to right the ship. This is the first in a series of post will take a more theoretical than practical look at the way the A's have made acquisitions, extensions, and decisions surrounding trades and how that affects the position the A's are in right now: hurt, lacking in talent, and unable to trade anyone for quality prospects at the same time failing to pilot the team towards a playoff birth or having the necessary prospects on the farm to present either a bright future or provide the ability to trade for one. Part 1 was about reclamation projects and part 2 is about extensions.
When I started this post I tried to find a place where every transaction and resigning was available. Most of these came from Prosportstransactions.com but their database is missing a couple that I knew off the top of my head and could find in the great Cots' Contracts. Unfortunately Cots doesn't allow you to look by team at who had a player and Cots no longer lists inactive players so you wouldn't, for example, be able to find Ricardo Rincon's deal.
2010-04-16 Athletics Brett Anderson (a) re-signed to a 4-year contract extension through 2013 with options for 2014-2015
2010-01-29 Athletics Michael Wuertz re-signed to a 2-year contract with an option for 2012
Athletics Mark Ellis re-signed to a 2-year contract extension through 2011\
Athetics Bobby Crosby re-signed to a 5 year contract extension/$12.75M (2005-09)
Athletics Jay Witasick re-signed to a 2-year contract through 2007 with a 1-year team option for 2008
2005-09-26 Athletics Dan Haren agreed to 4-year $12.65M contract extension
2005-07-09 Athletics Mark Kotsay re-signed to a 3-year contract extension through 2008
2005-04-02 Athletics Rich Harden re-signed to a 4-year contract
2004-03-18 Athletics Eric Chavez re-signed to a 6-year contract extension
2003-12-16 Athletics Ricardo Rincon re-signed to a 2-year contract
2003-07-25 Athletics Scott Hatteberg re-signed to a 2-year contract extension through 2005 with a team option for 2006
2002-05-07 Athletics Barry Zito re-signed to a 4-year contract extension with team option for 2006
2002-03-10 Athletics Ramon Hernandez (J.) re-signed to a 4-year contract
2002-01-16 Athletics Jermaine Dye re-signed to a 3-year contract through 2004 with a mutual option for 2005
2001-09-27 Athletics Mark Mulder re-signed to a 4-year contract extension through 2005 with a team option for 2006
2001-08-15 Athletics Terrence Long re-signed to a 4-year contract extension
2001-04 Athletics Tim Hudson re-signed to a 4 year contract extension/$9.1M
1999-11-22 Athletics T.J. Matthews re-signed to a 2-year contract
1999-10-08 Athletics Randy Velarde re-signed to a 2-year contract through 2001 with a team option for 2002
1999-10-05 Athletics John Jaha re-signed to a 2-year contract
These were all the extensions I could find in the Beane era. If you remember one or know of a better source of information, please let me know because I definitely want complete information. With the information at hand I think that Beane's extensions have fallen in to a couple of categories: Extending arby eligible pitchers, extending relief pitchers, extending arby eligible position players, and extending veteran position players. I think breaking them down into these buckets allows for a better analysis of which moves have had the best yield for Beane.
Lets start with the good; Beane has done an excellent job extending home grown starting pitching. I wasn't as big fan of the Brett Anderson extension as many others because it wasn't as team friendly as some of the other deals signed and because of Anderson's long history of owies (mostly blisters and arm soreness). But making those points is really picking at nits, Beane has made fantastic decisions to extend starting pitchers. Most of the A's young starters have been extended, with the curious exception of Joe Blanton.
Blanton is an interesting case because he was pretty much the only home grown starter who wasn't extended. That decision seemed to have merit considering that the xFIP numbers that Blanton was sporting in his first two years (4.56, 4.78) shouldn't have instilled significant levels of confidence moving forward that Blanton would take a big leap and improve. Blanton's stuff had also declined since college when he was regularly sitting in the low 90s to his MLB average of 89 MPH. Furthermore, Blanton's ability to be valuable was related to his ability to eat innings so if he got hurt and no longer was able to do that, his value would be dramatically diminished. With the propensity for pitchers, even those with "good" mechanics, to experience injuries not signing Blanton looked like a smart move and may be an indicator of what will happen with an arm like Mazzaro in the future.
The rest of the significant home grown starters Hudson, Zito, Mulder, Harden and Haren all received extensions that bought out their arbitration years. Hudson's call up was after the the service time cut off so while he was only extended through his arby years if kept by the A's he would have been with the team as long as Anderson will be if the A's exercise both of his options. The Hudson deal was ridiculously team friendly providing $54m in surplus value in the four years of the deal that he was with the A's. Zito's deal netted the team $33.5m in surplus value. Mulder and Haren's deal both were instrumental in providing outstanding returns via trade as cost controlled pitchers and surplus value. Even Harden's deal, of which he spent a grand total 37 seconds on the field, was one that still netted the A's about $8m in surplus value. In every way Beane's record with starting pitcher extensions was phenomenal.
With young position players Beane's record has been mostly a success. Hernandez, Ellis, and Swisher worked out for the A's while the Long and Crosby deals were poor. As bad as he was the Crosby extension was essentially a push $15m in value for $12.75m in salary. Long's extension actually lost money which is really hard to do with these types of deals when injury doesn't end a career. Hernandez and Swisher's extensions both were vital in securing substantial trade packages for both. This is a category of players that as a GM you are suppose to win. Position players rarely have their careers wiped out by injuries and there is a discount that the team assumes because of the risk. Furthermore, the player is under arbitration so their salary is reduced versus a
One name that you probably didn't see on that list is Eric Chavez, who would go in the success column as well. How can Zombie Chavvy go into that category you ask? Well Chavez has actually signed two extensions with Beane and the A's. The first was in 2000 with these details from Cots:
- 4 years/$11.75M (2001-04), plus 2005 club option
signed extension with Oakland 8/00 $0.1M signing bonus 01:$0.5M, 02:$2.4M, 03:$3.55M, 04:$5.2M, 05:$6M club option (exercised 3/02)
That deal was actually pretty fantastic for the A's with Chavez never producing less than 3.9 WAR. The second extension is what we commonly come to curse and irrationally pretend that it should have been given to Tejada which gets put in the third category: veteran extensions.
Beane has gotten burned with pretty much every single one of his veteran extensions. Chavez everyone knows about and was alluded to earlier. Dye's extension was no good either as the A's nearly lost $25m in salary and value and the Kotsay extension burned a similar hole in the A's pocket at about $23m. The A's lost a much smaller sum on Hatty's deal at around $4m. Ellis' deal doesn't even look at this juncture (for a discussion of why I will direct you to Iglew's piece on UZR). There are some common themes to these deals. All of these players had injury issues when signed to their deals. All of which were considered strong defensive players (Dye's reputation was mostly with his arm, thought modern metrics weren't really around Total Zone shows him as more the solid to above average over the previous three years). Chavez was kept off the field but all of Kotsay, Dye, and Ellis went from being good defenders that were adding to their value to losing almost all of their defensive value in Ellis' case or becoming black holes of suck in the case of Dye and Kotsay.
Furthermore, the A's strategy of extending "underrated" players like Ellis, Hatteberg, or Kotsay makes it much harder to trade them for value in a market. The A's rely on underrated players to deal with the fact that if they can't pay full price for players that are traditionally valued highly. Superstar players like Ryan Howard who are overrated and overpaid would be the deathknell of the team's budget. Conversely, players that are overrated are easier to win trades that deal them away (just as its easier for the team to build and trade pitchers because of the Coli). This hurts the teams attempt to trade players for prospects to rebuild the farm. The A's haven't developed hardly any players that would be rated highly according to traditional views of the game. Therefore when the deadline approaches the A's are trying to trade players like Mark Ellis, who are seen as bit players by the rest of the league, rather than being seen as above average players for whom good prospect value should be trades. The keeps the A's from beyond significant Haren/Swisher/Mulder type trades from acquiring good Milb talent in recent years for the parts that don't make sense on the A's moving forward.
Finally, we will look at resigning relief pitchers. Who wants a bullpen of Rincon Witasick Mathews Wuertz? Well in the years that Beane signed them they produced a grand total of .5 WAR thats $2m in todays wins. Witasick was paid more by himself. This is really simply a really bad idea
Dear Billy,
DO NOT EXTEND RELIEF PITCHERS, YOU SUCK AT IT.
Love,
DFA
At the end of the day the track record of Beane extending players is pretty mixed. The Mulder, Hudson, Zito, Haren, Hernandez and Swisher deals hold up against the test of time. The problem is that so many others don't. While the first Chavez extension, Hernandez, and Swisher worked out well for the A's, in the category that usually performs best for the team, young arby eligible position players, Beane has as many failures as successes. In the riskiest category Beane has had the most success, young starting pitching. Beane has not done well with veteran extensions of relievers or position players beyond their arbitration time. At the end of the day, the team isn't making good decisions with its veteran extensions and isn't cleaning up on its arby eligible extensions, which is the only way that teams like the A's can keep their good players beyond the first non arby years of team control.
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You forgot Swisher
5 years/$26.75M (2007-11), plus 2012 club option
* signed extension with Oakland 5/11/07, replacing 1 year/$0.4M deal for 2007 signed 3/07
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 21, 2010 8:04 PM PDT reply actions
Yeah like I said the thing was incomplete both for reasons of me having to hand pick them out from the transactions site
and because Cots isn’t search-able and doesn’t have past contracts.
Thanks for pointing it out.
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 21, 2010 11:02 PM PDT up reply actions
I know Sweeney has been valuable, and Gio looks pretty good
But that Swisher contract is so damn team friendly, I’m not sure that trade was as good as it looked at the time. Sure would be nice to have him in the lineup still.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 22, 2010 5:26 AM PDT up reply actions
Im really not a fan of judging trades this way.
but the best piece Beane got busted and your worried that it didn’t look as good as it use to, not that we got jacked. Thats kinda one of the marks of a good trade
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 22, 2010 8:35 AM PDT up reply actions
DLS isn't "done" though
So, we shall see.
"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagine such events unfolding!" Bill King
by Buck Turgidson on Jul 22, 2010 8:51 AM PDT up reply actions
I'd say his chances of becoming a top tier starter are much lower than they were when we acquired him.
He’s striking out guys by the bundles out of the bullpen. Whether the A’s can (or even want to) transition him back to a starter in the offseason remains to be seen, but his value to the A’s pretty much comes as a starter. Though I agree with dfa’s notion that the deal was a good one whether or not FDLS got injured or not.
hes a reliever moving forward
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 22, 2010 9:38 AM PDT up reply actions
i agree he's most likely a reliever
but have the a’s come out and said so? its pretty common for guys to start out in the pen when they come back from TJS, and the a’s have been throwing him for more than an inning at a time with regularity.
either way, he’s far from a bust at this point as he’s only 24 and, by all accounts, has his wicked stuff back.
http://www.minorleagueball.com/2010/6/22/1531332/player-reports-from-san-antonio
yes they have
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 22, 2010 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions
Oh, I still support the trade
I just really wish they had a 25 HR guy out there.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 23, 2010 7:43 AM PDT up reply actions
This is a great article on the key weakness of Beane.
He has to have a bargain in every transaction. For him it’s a great deal to extend someone like Kotsay, because he “projects” as a 3-4 WAR player for $7M or $8M because that’s a low WAR/$, but the reality is that Kotsay only projects that way if he’s healthy and doesn’t collapse and there’s a reason no one extends injury prone guys to long term deals even at discounted $/WAR.
The other common thread is that all the veterans extended were no more than solid players at their peak. So when they declined, they sucked. Getting the A-Rod decline phase is one thing, but getting Kotsay’s decline phase is quite another.
The one guy you didn’t mention is Kendall who Beane didn’t extend, but whose extension he traded for. Kendall was more than a solid player at his peak, but his injuries were very severe.
I don’t see how Beane is ever going to do well with players in their FA years unless he either signs them to short deals, like Frank Thomas or the Angels with Abreu, or signs superstars to big deals like the Giants with Bonds. True you could get burned on a previously durable superstar like the Orioles did with Belle, but that seems a better bet than buying all these mid-priced mediocrities in their decline years.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
Is it a "weakness of Beane" or does he just have no choice because of the team's financial/stadium situation?
Does he operate this way entirely because he wants to or because it’s the best he can do with the cards he’s been dealt?
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 21, 2010 8:41 PM PDT up reply actions
It's not a budget problem. It's that attitude that you're better off spending $30M on 5
guys instead of 2 to spread risk. The problem is that the 5 guys are going to each be riskier than the 2. Just watch. He won’t pay Carl Crawford $22M/year but he’ll spend that $22M on 3 guys coming off injuries — the next coming of Duchscherer, Crisp and Sheets — after getting spurned by some 2nd tier FA.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 21, 2010 9:27 PM PDT up reply actions
There's a problem with that logic though.
Whether or not anybody wants to believe it, there is a budget that the team has to adhere to, and spending $22M on one player limits the ability to field the rest of the roster.
Pam liked my old sig better.
If the A's had a 20m CFer and not crisp, duke, sheets, and ellis they would field a perfectly adequate roster.
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 22, 2010 12:17 AM PDT up reply actions
What does perfectly adequate mean to you?
A team that plays .500 ball with a 20-million-a-year centerfielder on it? Something else? Please explain!
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 22, 2010 4:51 AM PDT up reply actions
You can get burned doing that, too -- e.g., Chavez.
I suppose you could try to calculate risks and do a cost-benefit analysis, but there are so many unknown factors that even the final “answer” will be largely guesswork.
Beane seems to believe in using the entire, 40-man roster to the greatest extent possible, maybe because he just assumes that injuries are unavoidable. So he might be very uncomfortable investing so much of the budget in one player (again), even though obviously a Bowers or McPherson doesn’t cost all that much.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
I would argue that Chavez really hasn't hamstrung the team as much as portrayed
and would have hamstrung the team even less if it would have cultivated any modicum of third base prospect over the last ionno half a decade.
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 22, 2010 9:16 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, it wasn't his salary that hamstrung the team
it was Beane’s refusal to acquire a replacement for him.
Pam liked my old sig better.
right
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 22, 2010 9:28 AM PDT up reply actions
I think the prospect thing is part of the hamstringing, though
Not that the A’s would have hated to develop a good, young 3B, but if you constantly think, “Chavez will come back and be a superstar again next season, and we really need starting pitching and a catcher and a CF, and anyway we’re paying him all this money…” then I think you’re unlikely to prioritize developing a replacement for Chavvy.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
im just saying draft 1 SS who cant field and hits the shit out of the ball in 8 years
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 22, 2010 9:39 AM PDT up reply actions
You're exaggerating.
It’s not that the A’s didn’t cultivate “any modicum of third base prospect”. They had a few, including at least one who was pretty good. It’s just that they all got moved before they made it to the majors because they were presumed blocked. Still arguably a mistake, but don’t overstate the case.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
youre right they had Tehean
but he was traded 6 years ago, basically when they decided to extend Chavez
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 23, 2010 8:52 AM PDT up reply actions
And, Teahen kinda sorta sucks
I mean, he was better than the Jack Hannahan show (btw, Boston just got him).
Although, in 2008 and 2009, WAR likes Hannahan better, while in 2007, WAR liked Teahen better.
I’m skeptical. Very much so. More proof that metrics have flaws.
"Swingles is Day to Day: IE: He’s being turned into a zombie, but they don’t want the world to know for another 5 days (retroactive)" ~Zonis
I'm not denying that the A's have *failed* to
groom a decent 3B. I just think it’s wrong to imply, as many have, that because Chavez was there they didn’t even try.
They tried, but none of them panned out. That happens sometimes. It sucks, but I don’t think it supports the position of “because of Chavez, Billy never looked for any other 3B”. Of course he looked. In retrospect it’s easy to say they all sucked and he should have looked harder, but we didn’t know they would all suck.
Teahen only sucks in the context of a major leaguer; as a prospect he turned out great. Brian Snyder was a first-round pick but he fizzled. Jeff Baisley looked hopeful for a while but not so much now, though he still hasn’t completely washed out.
Also forgotten are the trades. We talk about Ethier-for-Bradley all the time, but no one ever mentions the third piece of that trade: Antonio Perez, who was acquired as a spare 3B in case of Chavez failure. We tend to forget that because Perez turned out to be awful, but he wasn’t expected to be awful. At the time some were even saying that he might be the real gem of the trade, a la Mark Ellis. Alas, he was not, but he shows that Beane was at least aware of his 3B problem.
In sum: Yes, Beane failed to solve the problem. No, he didn’t ignore the problem.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Perez was a SS/2b man
He was suppose to give Ellis/Crosby a run for a starting position if either faltered/got hurt again. I was a big fan of him.
Baisly never looked hopeful beyond some A’s fans desperate for a 3b prospect with a pulse. Tehean I wasn’t counting because he was traded less than 6 months after the extension. Snyder was also drafted before the extension
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 23, 2010 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions
Didn't Perez play mostly 3B in LA in 2005?
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
he played 6 more games at 3b than 2b
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 23, 2010 1:32 PM PDT up reply actions
Ah, OK. Thanks.
Still, that’s ~50% at 3B. So surely there was an awareness he could be either.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
I don't think it would make that big of a difference.
Those four have combined for 2.3 WAR this year. Marlon Byrd is leading CFers with a 3.8 WAR. So, it’s about a 1.5 WAR difference. And that hypothetical 20 million dollar CFer is probably going to be around a lot longer along with his bloated contract.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jul 22, 2010 6:56 AM PDT up reply actions
Btw, the CFer who makes the closest to 20 million dollars this year (Torii Hunter) is a whopping .7 WAR better than the foursome you listed.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jul 22, 2010 7:03 AM PDT up reply actions
Sure
But you can expect to beat 0 WAR for the other three spots.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Right.
But two of the players listed (Crisp, Duke) have barely played and Ellis missed about 40 games, Besides you’ll also be playing more of Rosales, Rajai/Gross, and early season Mazzaro/Mortenson as well along with that 20 million dollar CF so in the end, I still really don’t think it’ll make that much of a difference.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jul 22, 2010 7:23 AM PDT up reply actions
I think its a lot easier to find 0> x <2 WAR replacement players than you think
I think youre undervaluing the concentration of WAR in a star.
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 22, 2010 9:22 AM PDT up reply actions
you mean 0 < x < 2
but wholehartedly agree with your point.
a classic example was signing giambi for $5M, nomar for $3M and embree for $3M two years ago.
or for the same amount of money and another year commitment, the a’s could’ve had adam dunn (2yrs/$20M) and scraped the bottom of the barrel for IF and RP help.
and i think beane is heading down this path again with the of. if they keep everyone, they’ll be paying ~ $16M for crisp, sweeney, jackson, cust and davis.
Well, now that you mention it,
it’s pretty easy to find 0 > x < 2 WAR players, too!
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
the Blue Jays are a better team than we are
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 22, 2010 9:23 AM PDT up reply actions
they play in the AL East
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 22, 2010 9:28 AM PDT up reply actions
Plus, mikev isn't converting their W/L to an American denomination
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
I agree with this.
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 22, 2010 9:39 AM PDT up reply actions
this is true.
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 22, 2010 9:40 AM PDT up reply actions
But they have Vernon Wells
who siphons about 20MM of that payroll.
They’d probably be winning any other division in MLB, except maybe the NL East.
"Swingles is Day to Day: IE: He’s being turned into a zombie, but they don’t want the world to know for another 5 days (retroactive)" ~Zonis
Right, which leads me back to having a 20M centerfielder and a bunch of crap.
With a 90M payroll, it’s a little easier to have a 20M fuckup than with a 70M payroll, etc
Pam liked my old sig better.
Also, all of the "next coming" guys you list were on 1 year deals
It’s going to take 6-8 to sign Crawford. There’s just no comparison. You’re handcuffing the team for the forseeable future with a deal like that. With the 1-year high risk deals, you get that money back to start over the next year.
Why don't you make like a tree, and get out of here.
by thelincolndude on Jul 21, 2010 10:04 PM PDT up reply actions
No really, it's not.
Paying Carl Crawford 22 million for the next ~6 years is far riskier than paying Sheets, Duke, and Crisp 22 million for one year.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jul 21, 2010 10:16 PM PDT up reply actions
No it really is not more risky to pay Crawford $22 million for 6 years than it is
to sign 4 high risk guys with less talent each year for six years. It may be true that signing Sheets for $10 million for one year is less risky than signing Crawford for $152 million for 6 years, but it’s not true that signing a Crisp, a Sheets, a Duchscherer and an Ellis every year is less risky.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 22, 2010 3:35 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, that makes even less sense that what you said before.
Diversifying risk works even better in the long run than the short run. I would absolutely have the A’s take one year risks on a Sheets, Crisp, and Duke for 6 years than a Crawford for 6 years.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jul 22, 2010 6:21 AM PDT up reply actions
I think the other problem of this
is that if they play well great, you either have to trade them at the deadline or just suck it up and lose them for nothing. Furthermore, the availability of the type of talent that you need to sign every year in this world varies and there are other teams competing for it year after year, so it doesn’t alway work out in terms of being able to sign who you want.
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 22, 2010 9:26 AM PDT up reply actions
Let's put it another way. Would you trade Sheets, Duke, Ellis and Crisp for Crawford?
in 2010? If so, then would you make that same trade every year for the next six? A one year contract is not less risky than a six year contract if you’re going to do it every year for six years anyway.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 22, 2010 6:13 AM PDT up reply actions
Irrelevant analogy.
The whole point of the one year deals is so that you can opt out after a year if the Sheets you signed didn’t work out, allowing you to pursue other Sheets caliber players. You’re basically presenting a scenario in which you remove the biggest advantage of the one year deal.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jul 22, 2010 6:23 AM PDT up reply actions
I think that youre right here though
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 22, 2010 9:26 AM PDT up reply actions
I think Beane doesn't want to get burned again like he did with Chavez
But I do agree with you.
Instead of hoping 4 risky players come through, and when a combination of them don’t, figure it out on the fly, the A’s would be better off paying the one superstar player and go into every season with the philosophy that they can build a contending team around that guy, but if that guy gets hurt for a long period, the season is over.
The A’s are good at developing cheap talent. They really don’t need a bunch of $4-6 million players.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 22, 2010 5:30 AM PDT up reply actions
While I understand your argument
what superstar would want to sign with Oakland unless we pony up a ridiculous contract to them? Of course doing this would hamper us for years to come on other players.
WOuld you sign Crawford to 20m/ year for 6 years or rather get 4-5 guys with unique strengths (defense, sb, high obp, etc.) on shorter contracts to supplement the “loss” of a Crawford?
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
by ST on Jul 22, 2010 5:40 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yes, but you're making too much sense.
I think you and I should come to the conclusion that many fans seem to know how best to run this team and that it’s the ownership and management that are stupid. It seems that it’s easier to presuppose what one might do as one imagines spending someone else’s money.
Mr. Green in lounge with lead pipe…repeatedly and over the head until it’s understood: arm-chair GMs have all the answers; most real GMs are badly flawed and the owners are oblivious; and some real GMs work for tight-fisted a-holes who don’t care for fans and enjoy disrespecting them [because it makes good business sense, I’m guessing].
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 22, 2010 6:05 AM PDT up reply actions
Carl Pohlad was just such a tight-fisted a-hole and the Twins still understood
the benefits of a “stars and scrubs” approach to roster building when he was alive. Ditto Jeffrey Loria and Beinfest/Smith.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 22, 2010 6:15 AM PDT up reply actions
The Twins have generally had great pitching staffs in the early part of the decade, and they've taken advantage of weak division competition. They don't really employ a star and scrubs approach.
After Mauer and Morneau established themselves as stars, they’ve made the playoffs twice in 5 years.
And how many playoff appearances does Hanley have? How many playoff appearances do the Marlins have this decade?
How good were the post ’03 Giants teams led by Bonds and Schmidt? Those were pretty much the definition of “stars and scrubs” teams.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jul 22, 2010 6:42 AM PDT up reply actions
Wow. I mean, why do you even bother posting here?
I’m honestly asking, because holier than thou bullshit posts such as the one you made right there always make me wonder WHY the person who posted it even bothers to participate in conversations like this.
Pam liked my old sig better.
by mikev on Jul 22, 2010 8:05 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm just trying to counter SOME of
the smarter than thou bullshit that I read when I come here. That’s my honest answer. And I want to particpate even as the “I’m smarter than you” bullshyte is perpetuated by some on this site who try and belittle others. That’s why, Mike!
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 22, 2010 9:52 AM PDT up reply actions
So your response is that you just want to be a dick.
OK, cool.
You could also just not read this if you don’t want to. Nobody is forcing you to read this thread, and honestly your opinion, if it’s nothing more than “you guys are armchair GMs and don’t know what you’re doing” is not wanted here.
If you don’t want to actually participate or contribute, then go away and post in a Cust sucks thread or something.
Pam liked my old sig better.
Is that what I wrote?
So your response is that you just want to be a dick.
I can’t even imagine the crap I’d get if I wrote this to you. Question: if I wrote this to you — or something like it — would you be thinned skinned and flag it? Be honest. I won’t do this, though. I actually have thick skin I recognize it for what it is. Do you have thick skin?
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 22, 2010 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions
I'm pretty sure that I've only flagged 2 posts my entire time on AN.
well, aside from the 2 posts of yours in this thread that I also flagged.
So let me ask this: Why are you posting in this thread? Your crappy attempt at sarcasm in response to ST makes it clear that you’re not interested in the off-field parts of baseball, which is perfectly fine. However, plenty of us love that aspect of it, so naturally we’re going to talk about it.
NOBODY BESIDES YOU has said that “we know best how to run this team” or that “it’s the ownership and management that are stupid”
NOBODY BESIDES YOU has said that “armchair GMs have all the answers”
So let me ask again: If you don’t care about the armchair GM part of the game, why are you bothering to post in this (or other) threads like it? You’re not being forced to read them, you’re not being forced to participate in them, yet you do, and when you do it’s only to post trollish comments or attacks on the rest of us. Why?
Pam liked my old sig better.
Wow, you flagged two of my posts here.
…it clear that you’re not interested in the off-field parts of baseball, which is perfectly fine.
You are so wrong about this. I am very interested in the off-the-field parts of baseball. In fact, it’s what I mostly decisde to comment about. I comment because I enjoy how this organization operates as a business and Lewis’ book Moneyball fascinated me. So, you’ve completely mischaracterized my interests here. What you do not seem to be noticing is that my interest about off-field decsions lead me to view the decsion-making of the team one way, while you probably dodn’t see the same decsion-maiking the same way. I might have a contrary view of that decsion-making and it seems it is this [and other things] that you don’t like about me.
NOBODY BESIDES YOU has said that "we know best how to run this team" or that "it’s the ownership and management that are stupid"
No one has come right out and used these exact words.
NOBODY BESIDES YOU has said that "armchair GMs have all the answers"
No one has actually been bold enough to use these exact words but parce it and in essense…
So let me ask again: If you don’t care about the armchair GM part of the game, why are you bothering to post in this (or other) threads like it? You’re not being forced to read them, you’re not being forced to participate in them, yet you do, and when you do it’s only to post trollish comments or attacks on the rest of us. Why?
I’ve already answered this.
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 22, 2010 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions
Glad to see you pissing all over another one of my threads
I might have a contrary view of that decsion-making and it seems it is this [and other things] that you don’t like about me.
Then what is that view? Instead of just pissing all over everything you could you know say which extended contracts I point out as flawed really aren’t but noooooo being a dick is far too important
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 22, 2010 10:57 AM PDT up reply actions
Okay, fair enough
Then what is that view? Instead of just pissing all over everything you could you know say which extended contracts I point out as flawed really aren’t but noooooo being a dick is far too important
That you really do not know what the fuck you’re talking about. You are not privvy to the budget for payroll. You do not know what FA players are asking for. that you do not know what players are available in trades. It’s al speculation on your part. And that’s cool. Just don’t expect everyone to agree that you could do any fucking better, dig?
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 22, 2010 11:01 AM PDT up reply actions
You are not privvy to the budget for payroll. You do not know what FA players are asking for. that you do not know what players are available in trades. It’s al speculation on your part. And that’s cool
Name one circumstance where knowing who is or is not available or the budget would have impacted either of my last two posts.
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 22, 2010 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Re-read your first paragraph of both post.
You come across as though the current management needs to go because they make poor personnel moves. You have your opinions on the matter. You also seem to come across as though you could have done so much better — and you do this quite often. Stop being whinny and just deal with the fact there are others that think you’re not as on top of things as you seem to believe that you are.
Pissing on your thread…pffft! I can see why you’re so possessive; you write stuff as though you think this is a team you actually own.
Now, go ahead and call me names or tell me I’m gnat-like and that I don’t bother you or better yet flag me for baiting you because you cannot handle a little Internet confrontation even though you seem to enjoy dishing it out.
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 23, 2010 10:36 AM PDT up reply actions
you could stop griping about how not on top of things I am and actually make an argument as to what Im not on top of.
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 23, 2010 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions
My point is only this:
That you come across as though you either a) have the answers or b) that you could do better. You criticize Beane and the ownership for their personnel moves frequently as though you know what could have been done, with what resources (money and players), and the timing of all these things. You simply do not know and are not privvy to all the information yet write as though you are. That’s all. Try checking your ego at the keyboard in the future. Or continue with your “I’m much smarter than everyone else in the room” ways. But don’t expect to be let up on if you continue with the latter’s approach.
I can only hope that this message will actually be received in between your rock and hard place. I won’t hold my breath, though.
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 23, 2010 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions
is your skull so thick that you don't get that I don't care what you think of my ego
and I only care about the arguments against what I write.
Stop wasting everyones time responding to my “attitude”.
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 23, 2010 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions
It's not a waste of my time
You should probably be told that you’re a punk more often. But your the one with the thick skull who is projecting here. Good thing I’m not holding my breath.
So, what should Beane’s next move be, DFA. I ask only because I think if his personnel moves are so poor, he probably needs some guidance. And I’m sure you are just the guy who knows enough [and has the large enough ego] to provide it.
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 23, 2010 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions
And my point is only this:
That you come across as though you either a) have the answers or b) that you could do better. You criticize DFA for his posts frequently as though you know what could have been done, with what resources (time and thoughtfulness), and the timing of all these things. You simply do not know and are not privvy to all the information yet write as though you are. That’s all. Try checking your ego at the keyboard in the future. Or continue with your "I’m much better than everyone else in the room" ways. But don’t expect to be let up on if you continue with the latter’s approach.
I can only hope that this message will actually be received in between your rock and hard place. I won’t hold my breath, though.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Fail.
That you come across as though you either a) have the answers or b) that you could do better.
I don’t have nearly any of the answers in regards to personnel moves — I think Beane is one of the better GMs in MLB. I certainly do not profess that I can do any better than him or any other GM. Show me where I have. Okay? Thanks.
You criticize DFA for his posts frequently as though you know what could have been done, with what resources (time and thoughtfulness), and the timing of all these things.
I don’t pretend to know things that I do not. End of story. If you can demonstrate where I have, I’d even like to check it out to see if I really knew what I was talking about.
Try checking your ego at the keyboard in the future.
I do this! I dislike it when other members of AN cannot do it. I will be vocal, though, and that’s not neccessarily the same as being consummed by my own ego.
Eagerly awaiting your response(s)
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 23, 2010 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions
1. You claim to have all the answers/an ability to do better at posting without sounding like a know-it-all.
2. If you don’t know how he could do his posts better, shut up.
3. It is inherently egotistical to criticize someone else for doing something their way instead of your way. Especially when you seem to be the only one complaining.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
1. You claim to have all the answers/an ability to do better at posting without sounding like a know-it-all.
I think that coming across as though this is your team, your thread, your…whatever…is the epitome of being a know-it-all. I don’t do this. You like that quality about DFA? Do you agree with him that Beane and Co. make poor personnel moves? If so, what makes you think you can do better than Beane & Co….that everything you’d like to see done can actually be accomplished. Thanks for youir reply to this in advance.
2. If you don’t know how he could do his posts better, shut up.
I think that I’m in the midst of trying to explain this. Perhaps I am still not making my point clearly. And if you side with DFA, I probably cannot solicite you to help me find the words. I’ll keep working on it then. Is that okay with you?
3. It is inherently egotistical to criticize someone else for doing something their way instead of your way.
Yeah, maybe you’re correct. I sure hope the DFA can come to the same conclussion when it comes to his criticism of this team’s management.
Especially when you seem to be the only one complaining.
I’m not really the only one. I just happen to be the only one sticking with it. Complaints are only one way apparently.
Thank you for your input and getting me to reflect a liitle more on this
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 23, 2010 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions
1. I absolutely agree that Beane has made some bad moves. Particularly the ones DFA points to here (with maybe a quibble or two). He also does other things well. Do you dispute that?
2. Fine with me. I think you take issue with Beane criticism (at least by DFA), which you’re just going to see in a place like this.
3. Sports fans I know criticize management when it makes mistakes. Do you not? I think the better question is whether DFA would attack a post of yours supporting Beane for the way you support it rather than what you support.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
back to the topic Id love to hear the quibbles :-)
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 23, 2010 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions
Do you dispute that?
With hindsight, no, I don’t dispute it. But then I don’t have hindisght or the information that Beane had. Nor do a vast majority of people who post here if anyone.
3. Sports fans I know criticize management when it makes mistakes. Do you not?
I used to do this a lot. And then I came to realize that there’s a whole lot of information that fans are not privvy to. And then I came to realize just how overly emotional it was for me to see things only through the my own lenses.
2. Fine with me. I think you take issue with Beane criticism (at least by DFA), which you’re just going to see in a place like this.
I do do this. I like the fact that Oakland has a GM of Beane’s caliber. I like Beane and take issue when he is criticized. That’s my problem. I know that this seems weird but I liken the way I feel when he is criticized to the way that other people may feel when their own sacred cows are gored. In other words, I value what he brings to this team’s table that much that I feel the desire to defend him against criticism. This is my weakness and I acknowedge it. One thing I am not afraid to do is to discuss it and take criticisms becuase of this.
I think the better question is whether DFA would attack a post of yours supporting Beane for the way you support it rather than what you support.
I’m not sure exactly what you mean here. But if you’re asking whether or not I would mind getting attacked for the manner and style in which I supported Beane, then the answer would have to be that I would mind. But if I was coming across as a know-it-all who honestly felt that my contribution were so valued by the community that they should not and could not be disputed, then I think I would deserve any criticism that came my way.
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 23, 2010 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Youre doing the exact same thing as me
I like the fact that Oakland has a GM of Beane’s caliber.
If fans really don’t have enough information to make adequate judgments about personnel moves and any fan that thinks that they can judge a GM is an arrogant know it all how can you possibly come to the conclusion that Beane is a good GM?
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 23, 2010 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions
That's a good point
My first response to this is, is that Beane is employed by someone who wants to earn a profit. And the only way to earn that profit is to bring something to the table. If Beane can no longer do this, he’d be fired and replaced with someone that could. Now, don’t you think there’s way that peoplke with actual money on-the-line can measure these things? And why do you suppose Beane was coveted by the Red Sox…because he sucked? I don’t think he’d be coveted if he sucked, DFA.
Where I think you are wrong about me doing the exact same thing as you do is in my notion that you treat other posters like shit when the disagree with you. That, and it’s my belief that you think that this community is so much better off for you being in it. Yes you make great contribution but it does seem that you are on an awfully large highhorse. I don’t think that I do this, though. It does not mean that I am not minus my own annoying ‘qualities’ and characteristics.
You do understand my position better now, right?
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 23, 2010 3:21 PM PDT up reply actions
This is a bad argument
If Beane can no longer do this, he’d be fired and replaced with someone that could.
DAYTON FUCKING MOORE
completely disproves your entire analysis.
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 23, 2010 3:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Again.
You seem to think that you know what goes on in the front office (both with the Athletics and now the Royals). I think you’re wrong. What do you know about the goals of any team’s ownership. Just because you write the words “we” from time to time as though these are partially your decisions that you’re making doesn’t really mean that you’re in-the-know. Besides, I didn’t analyze anything just as you have not prooved anything about what you think you might know. You probably know far less than you think you know.
So, what do you really know? Which front office(s) has (have) shared their strategies with you?
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 23, 2010 6:55 PM PDT up reply actions
If I didn't already know the following
a. you are a lunatic-fringe-libertarian, and
b. you have no conception whatsoever of the is-ought fallacy,
this post would clear any such misapprehensions up…
Actually, thinking about it, those “two things”’ are really just saying the same thing twice in a row.
Arthur Dent: You know, it's at times like this, when I'm trapped in a Vogon airlock with a man from Betelgeuse and about to die of asphyxiation in deep space, that I really wish I'd listened to what my mother told me when I was young.
Ford Prefect: Why, what did she tell you?
Arthur Dent: I don't know, I didn't listen!
I am not surprised you chimed in
You are, perhaps, one of the bigger offenders of ascribing what ‘ought to be’ and passing it off as ‘what is’. Makes perfect sense. What I didn’t expect is for you to cop to it and expose yourself as the highhorse thinker that you believe yourself to be.
It suprises me none that you studied law and now represent a union. Do you exercise your smuggness there, too. Or would you get your ass beat if you tried it face-to-face?
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 23, 2010 7:15 PM PDT up reply actions
The hindsight point is fair
But then I read DFA’s point to be that deals worked out poorly, which isn’t beaten by hindsight.
On the last one, my point is that you’re coming after DFA for doing this his way, and responding to my point that this is inherently egotistical by saying DFA should lay off Beane. I think a better analogy is that DFA should lay off your method/style.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Hmm
I think a better analogy is that DFA should lay off your method/style.
I don’t really think that he comes after my method/style. If he does [and I don’t think he does nor am I seeing it], it’s because I’m coming after him for his method/style first. And I do this because I think his style is filled with arrogance. He does seem, however, to come after me with personal attacks [and when he does this he’s usually projecting]. I understand this, though, because I provoke him through challenging his style and writing as though he’s in-the-know on most matters.
I can only hope that by challenging the arrogance, that he tones it down to a level I can tolerate. That’s tricky, though, for what I beieve are two reasons: 1) there’s bad blood 2) I don’t think he’s mature enough to tone it down. I also understand that the community, in general, probably has a higher level of tolerance to the arrogance of others who post here.
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 23, 2010 8:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Based on what you admitted about flagging my posts....
…I’m flagging this one for because you meant to personally insult me. I have thicker skin than this and personally do not care that you’re showing the nature of your character here to me but damned, you all but admitted you’ve just flagged me for far less. So…
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 22, 2010 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions
I flagged you for trolling, not for being insulting. I don't give a damn about insults.
just as you don’t give a damn about participating in this thread aside from making attacks on the rest of us.
and I’ve got little interest in what you think the nature of my character is.
Pam liked my old sig better.
Can't we all...
just get along? (sings kumbaya)
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
Someone's f***ing my Lord, kumbaya....
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
awesome
(and not because of the missing comma)
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
but the missing comma makes it.
sock puppets have never successfully defended castles, except when working with squirrels, which would never happen because squirrels know better than to trust sock puppets, except when their nipples have magical powers. -nm
by Leopold Bloom on Jul 23, 2010 2:57 AM PDT up reply actions
Enh, gilding the lily.
It’s such a great line as it is. You know how much I love a grammatical dirty joke, but they’re best used to spice up something that isn’t already classic.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
No s---!
I generally like Lowcountry’s and Mike’s posts.
But the pissing match…not so much!
"You know, a long time ago being crazy meant something. Nowadays everybody's crazy."
-Charles Manson
by kaweahkaweah on Jul 22, 2010 4:20 PM PDT up reply actions
Just watch out for your shoes
"You know, a long time ago being crazy meant something. Nowadays everybody's crazy."
-Charles Manson
by kaweahkaweah on Jul 22, 2010 5:18 PM PDT up reply actions
Well, unless the goal of the contest is
to concentrate your aim on one spot.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Well, carry on then.
I shan’t be challenging you a match.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Make an argument or go away
did I call Beane stupid once? No
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 22, 2010 9:30 AM PDT up reply actions
No, you didn't exactly use the word "stupid".
Do I have to make an argument to stay, DFA? Can’t I just offer my own opinions? You probably don’t want to read or even see my opinions because I challenge you on things some times but I wont “go away” because of it.
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 22, 2010 9:56 AM PDT up reply actions
Honestly you don't challenge me you annoy me like a gnat
You create bullshit strawmans (eg DFA thinks Beane is stupid) so that you can the same warrant-less shits arguments because obviously either your position is wrong or you are intellectually incapable of forming a logical argument against my analysis.
Either way make an argument why Beane is doing a good job or get the fuck out of my thread.
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 22, 2010 10:06 AM PDT up reply actions
You're thread
Your cheap tickets. Your cheap transportation to games. Blah, blah; I see the pattern already, DFA. You may have written the thread but you don’t get to decide who posts in it, wanna-be tyrrant.
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 22, 2010 10:18 AM PDT up reply actions
You sure do play the victim card fast
Especially when you start it.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
If I write a post that leads to a discussion...
..about how some come across as hollier-than-thou and some come across as know-it-alls then I take some shit for it by defending myself without going all personal insult on others, that’s now the ‘victim card’? If it leads to discussions in someone else’s personal thread [no objectors allowed!], then I will play that card as often as neccessary.
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 22, 2010 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions
I can’t even imagine the crap I’d get if I wrote this to you.
Can’t I just offer my own opinions?
I’m flagging this one for because you meant to personally insult me.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Trying to take a higher road.
Rhetorical: I’m still going to jot down my opinions even when a fellow member want me to leave ‘his’ thread.
If only you could have read my write-up. By the way, are you trying to be a dick to me [you did just read that as sort of insulting, didn’t you]?
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 22, 2010 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions
when have we ever offered a superstar a contract?
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 22, 2010 9:27 AM PDT up reply actions
who we didn't offer that much more money.
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 22, 2010 9:29 AM PDT up reply actions
Its more that the A's need to sign players to good extensions
so that they are $4-6m players but they are worth a lot more.
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 22, 2010 9:29 AM PDT up reply actions
define "good extensions"?
if we’re only getting “good” deals for ourselves, i would tend to think that the free agent to be would rather bolt elsewhere for more lucrative deals (see: Giambi). i think the a’s are almost to the point where we have to pay more in order to retain or attract talent unfortunately.
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
they already have to pay more
and they got rejected by the last 3 guys they offered more to
Pam liked my old sig better.
yup
and to summarize the counterarguments / datapoints to DFA’s post:
- your fanbase is questioning why you aren’t retaining talent (see hudson, mulder, zito, giambi, etc.)
- your fanbase is questioning why you are unloading young talent (see eithier)
- free agents want more money in order to go to oakland
- free agents would avoid oakland if they can play elsewhere (to inflate stats, win ws, etc.) even for less money (see scutaro, beltre, furcal)
- only broken / above prime years fa’s on the mend want to go to oakland (see sheets / thomas)
- or fa’s on a short term contract (that didn’t get as much as they want elsewhere) w/ stipulations of not exercising them as type II free agents (see ocab)
- your spending must be equivalent to your revenue generation (near the bottom of the league)
with those working parameters, i think it was in the best interest of the a’s to retain some of talent they had even if it was above market price. i’m not necessarily condoning some of the deals, im just trying to offer some suggestions to understand them in a different context then merely financials
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
by ST on Jul 22, 2010 12:36 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well this is quite frankly a time shifting argument that sucks
- your fanbase is questioning why you aren’t retaining talent (see hudson, mulder, zito, giambi, etc.)
You cant say that the fanbase was questioning why you weren’t retaining talent because it hadn’t happened at the time of the extensions.
- your fanbase is questioning why you are unloading young talent (see eithier)This is only case in Beane’s entire tenure that this had happened. Its a terrible argument too because anyone that knows who a AA prospect was at the time knows that it was a good trade. Did signing Wuertz really ameliorate whatever feeling “the fans” “had”? No.
free agents would avoid oakland if they can play elsewhere (to inflate stats, win ws, etc.) even for less money (see scutaro, beltre, furcal)this is factually inaccurate. Beltre was offered the same amount of money by Philly as was offered by the A’s. Furcal was offered more to stay where he was playing for three years than Billy offered him. Scutero to a similar but smaller deal by a contending team in a hitters park from a team that didn’t trade him for some A ball junk in a salary dump. Bet your facts straight before you make an ass out of yourself again.
- your spending must be equivalent to your revenue generation (near the bottom of the league)The A’s payroll has been pretty middling not bottom of the league. Do some research.
Finally if the A’s are really so broke as you claim doing this
i think it was in the best interest of the a’s to retain some of talent they had even if it was above market priceis the worse thing that they can do. Rather they could invest in international free agents, the draft, or sign people at market rates which would all yield better results.
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 22, 2010 9:13 PM PDT up reply actions
why do you persistently
come off as an asshat? is that intentionally or just your demeanor?
Bet your facts straight before you make an ass out of yourself again.
with an ego like that, i’d rather refrain from any kind of logical debates with you..
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
by ST on Jul 22, 2010 9:44 PM PDT up reply actions 4 recs
Seriously, DFA.
You’re always saying you wish people would challenge your posts with real arguments. ST does exactly that, and instead of just countering his arguments you also toss in a little remark like this to belittle him.
If people come to expect that from you, they won’t want to debate you.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Because youre pushing a political agenda with untruths
Youre all about getting the A’s to SJ, which is fine, but youre making up arguments to fit your political agenda. You are using shifting time frame in a manner that is broderline intellectually dishonest in addition to making the arguments that don’t make sense (signing relief pitchers to extensions ameliorates a suspect fanbase) or are just factually innacurate (that the A’s offered Beltre or Furcal more money).
If you didn’t come with that I wouldn’t have pulled the attitude.
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 23, 2010 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions
And you wonder...
If you didn’t come with that I wouldn’t have pulled the attitude.
…as you complain when the very same thing happens to you. If you can dish it you should probably be able to take it as well.
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 23, 2010 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't push a political agenda.
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 23, 2010 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions
well here anyway.
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 23, 2010 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions
Oh, that's too bad.
I’m sure that you have all the answers there too and would like to be ‘in-charge’ so desperately.
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 23, 2010 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions
WTF?
The shit is finally out in the open…. you’re trying to weigh in your hatred of me because of my association with SJ-Baseball movement and all the times i’ve called you out on it?
what don’t you understand about this simple minute statement?
i’m not necessarily condoning some of the deals, im just trying to offer some suggestions to understand them in a different context then merely financials
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
by ST on Jul 23, 2010 4:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Two responses
First I don’t think that you ever “called [me] out on it” though I don’t know what it is.
Second, the A’s to SJ people and especially lowcountryJoe routinely construct factually inaccurate descriptions of the A’s market position so that they can advance the political agenda of moving the team to SJ. I have only really seen you around here in the context of pushing the SJ move. If your critique was focused on the post rather than to that end I apologize.
That being said I stand by my arguments that your characterization of the situation is wrong. If you are so inclined and would reread the comment and ignore the snark and wish to respond, ill drop the attitude.
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 23, 2010 6:06 PM PDT up reply actions
Political?
Second, the A’s to SJ people and especially lowcountryJoe routinely construct factually inaccurate descriptions of the A’s market position so that they can advance the political agenda of moving the team to SJ.
What’s innacurate? That the team’s ownership believes that it can be more successful somewhere else? Oh please tell me/us that you know more than the ownership does. For the record, I cannot advance an agenda [political? Can it be characterized as such?] all I can do is offer an explanation as to what the ownership might be thnking or dealing with. Do I know for sure what they’re thinking or dealing with. No. And I do not pretend to know. Can I influence people’s attitudes regarding what might be happening [even though I’m only speculating]? That’s what I am aiming to do…that’s my only agenda.
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 23, 2010 7:03 PM PDT up reply actions
As much as i would like to debate
further on this, i don’t think you would respond in a reasonable, unbiased, unprovocative (e.g. narcassitic asshat) manner. So instead, I will leave you with these thoughts…while your post certainly makes some sense, I think you are viewing it in a vacuum w/o external influences/parameters as i mentioned before. It’s kool to look back and say hey, they fucked up, but I’m sure Beane has his valid reasons whether they made sense or not. I’m not trying to necessarily condone Beane’s moves, but rather like to open up your tunnel vision of a view a bit.
p.s. you have challenged me on the oakland bit a couple of times already, pretty adamantly at that. that is what i mean by “calling you out”
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
Here is the problem. Beanes motives are simple that he thought these extensions were good ideas
they clearly weren’t. Just like Bobby Crosby’s idea at swinging at every low and outside slider wasn’t to strike out, its just what happened.
The motivation that Beane used isn’t particularly relevant. Most of the players that were locked up should reasonably have been expected to not perform as well (like Kotsay) or were relievers who don’t play into your appeasing the fan’s argument. I don’t criticize the Chavez deal although the A’s apparently knew far more about his shoulder at the time than they were willing to let on.
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 25, 2010 3:41 PM PDT up reply actions
who are these players
if you say Beltre you are very wrong.
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 22, 2010 7:59 PM PDT up reply actions
Philly offered the same 3/24 deal that the A's did.
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 23, 2010 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions
He didn't take the Phillies offer
which says that it really has nothing to do with the A’s. Also Beltre set himself up ofr a bigger payday by going to Boston.
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 23, 2010 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions
The fact that Philly also offered more than Boston
doesn’t take away from the fact that the A’s also did, and were turned down.
Pam liked my old sig better.
The idea that he turned down the A's because they are the A's for less money just isn't accurate though
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 23, 2010 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions
I never said that.
However, the fact remains that the last 3 “marquee” free agents that the A’s have made offers to have turned them down, even though the A’s made offers that were worth more money either overall or per year.
Furcal probably turned down Oakland because he wanted to drive up the price and really wanted to stay in LA all along.
Scutaro and Beltre chose Boston for their own reasons as well.
That still doesn’t make it less meaningful that they HAVE offered more $ to free agents and have been turned down.
Pam liked my old sig better.
But what you siad isn't true
even though the A’s made offers that were worth more money either overall or per year.
The A’s did not offer Beltre more money than Philly.
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 23, 2010 3:40 PM PDT up reply actions
but that shouldn't matter.
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 23, 2010 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions
corrected for you
but thatshouldn’tdoesn’t matter to me
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
by ST on Jul 23, 2010 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Its the construction of a false argument
Whether or not Beltre accepted less money from the Red Sox (which he really didn’t considering that he will make $4m less in 2 years with the Red Soxs if his option vests than he would in three with the A’s) is irrelevant considering that the A’s didn’t offer him more than the Phillies. The fact that he didn’t accept the Phillies deal says something about Beltre’s motivations: he wanted a short term deal with a contender in a hitters park so he could rebound his value. The deal that I proposed 4/32 probably would have gotten it done, but what the A’s offered wasn’t competitive. Now if he had accepted the Philly deal you totally would have had an argument.
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 23, 2010 5:55 PM PDT up reply actions
Parts of this I agree with
This is a great article on the key weakness of Beane.
He has to have a bargain in every transaction. For him it’s a great deal to extend someone like Kotsay, because he "projects" as a 3-4 WAR player for $7M or $8M because that’s a low WAR/$, but the reality is that Kotsay only projects that way if he’s healthy and doesn’t collapse and there’s a reason no one extends injury prone guys to long term deals even at discounted $/WAR.
The other common thread is that all the veterans extended were no more than solid players at their peak. So when they declined, they sucked. Getting the A-Rod decline phase is one thing, but getting Kotsay’s decline phase is quite another.
I think is very astute. I do think that the Bonds situation worked out well (obviously) but Bonds was beyond elite like Crawford.
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 22, 2010 12:15 AM PDT up reply actions
True, Bonds and Maddux were inner circle HOF and Crawford isn't....nor was Holliday.
The larger point is that Beane, unlike the Twins and Marlins, doesn’t recognize the benefits of a “stars and scrubs” strategy, preferring a mid-priced pseudo-bargain with FA dollars. The bargain seeking attitude works really well in picking up average to above average guys really cheap — e.g. Cust, Wuertz, Breslow, Rajai — but doesn’t work as well when you prefer mid-priced veterans in their decline phase over superstars in their decline phase.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 22, 2010 3:41 AM PDT up reply actions
Mark Teixeira has a .837 OPS this year.
He’s accumulated 1.8 WAR. For comparison’s sake, that’s less than Daric Barton’s. Teixeira has, what, six years and 150 million dollars left on his contract?
Now I’m not making the case that he’s worse than Barton or that he’s even in a decline phase. No one knows that. But if he was on the A’s, and this was happening, I would be fucking scared just at the possibility that he is. Really, I would think twice about not minding superstars (and their bloated contracts) in their decline phase.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jul 22, 2010 6:49 AM PDT up reply actions
THIS
Has anyone paid attention to how sharply A-Rod and Jeter have been declining. If even one of them were on a different team and getting paid as much as they are.
Jeter: .718 OPS, .323 wOBA 1.8 WAR
A-Rod: .827 OPS, .356 wOBA 2.3 WAR
And Teixeira, and Aramis Ramirez. Beltran’s AWESOME but he got hurt. And, on the pitcher side (pitchers as a whole are riskier), AJ Burnett, John Lackey, Carlos Zambrano. I’m only counting guys
I’m only counting guys who were legitimate superstars when they signed their contracts and the contracts weren’t immediately seen as dumb. Yes, Chavez fits into that boat but we all knew that. No Barry Zito or Alfonso Soriano or Jason Bay.
"Swingles is Day to Day: IE: He’s being turned into a zombie, but they don’t want the world to know for another 5 days (retroactive)" ~Zonis
Z was a headcase and declining when he signed
for my money Henry is one of the worst GMs in the Business. Burnett and Lackey were far more in the Zito category than the CC/Halladay category
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 22, 2010 11:01 AM PDT up reply actions
The loaded lineup effect
While their WARS have declined they are still plenty capable in a lineup of superstars. Does anybody think Swish would be putting up Yankee numbers if on the A’s roster? Same with Jeter and A-Rod. There’s a lot of protection playing in such a stacked linuep.
Does anybody think Swish would be putting up Yankee numbers if on the A’s roster?
I don’t know, but I’d sure love to find out!
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
I doubt it very much
That place is a launching pad to right field and he has all those great bats around him.
IBBs down
His walks remain high, but intentional walks have dropped, which does suggest he isn’t as worthy of pitching around. Still, small sample size. What is telling is that his slash line has come together nicely – probably as a result of getting better stuff to hit knowing the lineup is not going to go soft.
Great bats around him and IBB are down
It makes sense to me. It seems an opposing team is better off just muddling through the Yankee line-up without offering up free passes [except those doled out in the most obvious instances].
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 24, 2010 6:33 AM PDT up reply actions
Youre welcome.
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 21, 2010 11:03 PM PDT up reply actions
excellent work and analysis
remember we have the benefit of hindsight
although dye didn’t work out, at the time it seemed like we were extending an above average outfielder, it was unfortunate that dye broke his leg and had a fight with the injury bug, but his two year resurgence with the white sox is a sort of indicator of the player that beane wanted to have, at the time i would say his extension was warranted and as JD pointed out above swisher was a solid extension,
a lot of the extensions did work out and more credit to beane that he has to work knowing that he doesn’t have a lot of room for error when he extends a player, teams with more payroll flexibility can make up for a bad signing, but not so much the A’s, yes mistakes were made especially in the relief category, but i would say that aside from wuertz the front office learned from its past when extending relief pitchers,
hitting on a couple of extensions more than makes up for a couple failures as we can see from our playoff contention from 2000-2006
i’d say despite a few misses, beane has been successful overall in his extensions
When we played softball, I’d steal second base, feel guilty and go back.
- Woody Allen
by rhymeswithelephant on Jul 21, 2010 8:56 PM PDT reply actions
they signed Dye after the leg injury so you really cant excuse Beane for that
The thing is that with most of the arby extensions and the shorter vet extensions, you should be hitting at a really high level because the arby extensions are so team friendly as a general rule. Unfortunately beane hasn’t been hitting at a high level.
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 22, 2010 12:22 AM PDT up reply actions
Off topic
Carter hit his 23rd hr today.
by Brett Narloch on Jul 21, 2010 9:16 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Instead of side tracking a specificly targeted thread you could make a minor league results thread
Im just saying.
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 21, 2010 11:05 PM PDT up reply actions
Or throw it in the DLD or post game wrap if they just want to post a quick number.
by LoneStranger on Jul 21, 2010 11:09 PM PDT up reply actions
this is also true.
doing this is disrespectful to the post IMO.
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 21, 2010 11:11 PM PDT up reply actions
On topic
A good read….Ellis is not being shopped by the A’s, nor is anyone at the moment if you have been keeping up with Slusser/Ratto/ etc….and Ellis is still a good ball player in my opinion, stats be damned. He plays the game the right way, is wise as a fox on the field, and still makes spectacular plays from time to time. Just my two cents….
I absolutely think Beane has done a good job for the most part in signing his young players to extensions, other than Crosby. Chavvy was just bad luck. Rincon and Witasick, yeah, those were bad.
Overall, I enjoyed your last two posts other than the flame wars that seem to occur with them. And as an aside, if someone wants to throw a one liner in that is slightly off topic like Brett Narloch and duballers23, I don’t consider it disrespectful at all, even if I were the author of the post.
In this instance, I think perhaps you may take yourself a little too seriously, dfa. Relax my man, folks are gonna stop reading your posts if you are trying to dictate what’s cool and what isn’t. Now the baiting and troliing stuff? Go crazy dude……cheers! -M-Rod
"By the end of the year, I'll have Dallas throwing right-handed'' -Ben Sheets
by mrod on Jul 23, 2010 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
more off topic
-Tomko looked pretty bad today against SJ couple hit batters and when he was hit, he was hit hard.
-bases loaded with Stephen Parker at 2nd. He dives back into 2nd on a ground ball hit right at the shortstop for an inning ending 6-4-3 double play. Which led to a good laugh in conversations with Grant Green and the Giants 3rd base coach in between innings.
First of all, rec'd.
Random question, but when was xFIP first used?
I’m a little confused by your paragraph about underrated players. Doesn’t help that I got 4 hours of sleep last night, but I’ll ask away. Underrated players seem very important to a team with financial constraints like the A’s. Are you suggesting not extending players like this, because we can’t get good returns from the league from them?
Keep in mind, of course, that "the best defense of Derek Jeter's life" ranks somewhere in between "the best fiscal responsibility of Mike Tyson's life" and "the best not-getting-assassinated-ness of James Garfield's life." -FJM
Interesting...
… but I don’t know that we can consider this in a vacuum. Obviously, it would be a ridiculous amount of work to compile, but I wonder how other GMs do with their extensions?
Is Beane better or worse than other GMs? Or perhaps that’s even the wrong question to ask. Are some of these categories of extensions even worth pursuing at all? I wonder – should relievers ever receive deals greater than one year? What about veterans that aren’t bona fide stars?
Tampa did pretty well with Longoria
I’m still flabbergasted by how awesome that contract is for the Rays.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 22, 2010 5:31 AM PDT up reply actions
But that's very, very similar to the 1st extension for Chavez
that dfa mentioned and praised above.
Incidentally, I think RickeySteals’ question is great, but obviously I don’t expect dfa or anyone else to undertake that project — it would be a huge job.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Part of the problem is that the data really isn't out there in a format that would make it possible as far as I know
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 22, 2010 9:41 AM PDT up reply actions
It was a pretty significant initial risk
Chavy’s first extension was far less risky, as it was signed after he had accumulated about a year of playing time.
Longo had been in about 6 MLB games in his entire career before getting the extension. SIX. The Rays were able to lock him up so cheaply because they took a HUGE initial risk in guaranteeing 17.5MM to a player with quintessentially 0 MLB experience. And Longo signs that contract because he knows that if he busts or struggles in MLB, he’s got his 17MM in the bank. And, even if the Rays pick up all his options, he’s still young enough to pursue a 100MM deal in FA.
I don’t think its much less riskier than committing 17.5MM to an extremely polished amateur, like, Stephen Strasburg, or Aroldis Chapman, except a hitter with some minor league clout so less risky.
The strategy looks like a smart one with elite position prospects, although I don’t know if Taylor and Carter are the caliber of prospect I’d do that with. In terms of current MLB prospects, it might make sense with someone like Domonic Brown.
"Swingles is Day to Day: IE: He’s being turned into a zombie, but they don’t want the world to know for another 5 days (retroactive)" ~Zonis
I don't think that Taylor is that prospect
Carter maybe.
Stanton and Heyward are who should get those deals.
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 22, 2010 9:33 AM PDT up reply actions
That ship has long sailed on Heyward
The Braves should extend him, but its way way way too late to get a Longoria-type price tag on him. That should’ve been done in April. It’s going to be pretty expensive to lock up Heyward now. I think an extension to buy out his arb years and a year of free agency would easily cost about 50-60MM.
Stanton could be locked up at a Longoria-type price, since he hasn’t really shown anything in MLB, and he’s only played 38 games.
"Swingles is Day to Day: IE: He’s being turned into a zombie, but they don’t want the world to know for another 5 days (retroactive)" ~Zonis
I'm not sure any young superstar is going to get locked up at Longoria prices again
That contract is utterly ridiculous.
Why don't you make like a tree, and get out of here.
by thelincolndude on Jul 22, 2010 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions
Eh, I could see it happening again
If Longoria turned into Alex Gordon (i don’t think he’s a bust), I’m sure having an extra 17MM in the bank would be nice
6 MLB games means nothing. Lots of pre-arb contracts (signed with more service time even) have turned into busts, just look at Angel Berroa or Bobby Crosby.
If the Longoria contract teaches anything, its that taking a 20MM risk with an elite prospect can end up smart. If more of these happen, you’re going to see busts. But I still think its going to be smart.
"Swingles is Day to Day: IE: He’s being turned into a zombie, but they don’t want the world to know for another 5 days (retroactive)" ~Zonis
The A's did it with Crosby and Swisher
The problem is Crosby was never actually very good even before injuries. Perhaps he would’ve improved, but nobody can be sure.
The problem with Swisher was, well, they jumped on a good deal and moved him (again, not saying that trade was bad). The Swisher deal they signed him to in 2007 is still going and it’s still a bargain.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 23, 2010 8:34 AM PDT up reply actions
I think a lot of GMs would see a similar balance of success between those four categories simply because extending arby eligible players is where the value is
It certainly highlights that Beane should never think about extending another reliever again, especially considering how good he is at finding diamonds in the rough that can give him a couple of good years.
right never extend a reliever.
if they get good one year trade them
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 22, 2010 9:33 AM PDT up reply actions
DFA, I have to ask you this question
Are you for trading our lovely sir Andrew Bailey?
Let’s pretend a team came along and offered a top 20 position prospect. What happens?
"Swingles is Day to Day: IE: He’s being turned into a zombie, but they don’t want the world to know for another 5 days (retroactive)" ~Zonis
Top 20 in all MLB?
As much as it would hurt, in a sentimental sense, to lose Bailey, if some GM is silly enough to offer you Carlos Santana, Domonic Brown, or Desmond Jennings (guys who were considered in the 10-20 range prior to the season) I don’t think there is a single second of hesitation in making that deal.
Why don't you make like a tree, and get out of here.
by thelincolndude on Jul 22, 2010 10:52 AM PDT up reply actions
Ive been suggesting trading him since last year
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 22, 2010 10:54 AM PDT up reply actions
I wouldn't be at all surprised if Bailey is the next Bobby Jenks
Which means they should trade him after 2011, MAYBE 2012. Hanging onto him anymore could be a big mistake.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 23, 2010 8:36 AM PDT up reply actions
yeah I think relievers should be used for their pre arby years and then traded almost as a rule.
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 23, 2010 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions
bailey doesn't come with the same
concerns about body, head or health as jenks had, things which possibly explain his sharp decline. I think Papelbon or Soria are more reasonable comps, and both guys are still pretty good.
But regardless, Bailey is still a 2 WAR reliever on a non-playoff contender. If you can get a top 20 position prospect – someone with a chance of posting 4-5 WAR/yr – you take it in a heartbeat.
I'm quite a bit less prospect-happy than most
in this thread, but even I would trade Bailey for a top-20 position prospect. Surely.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
This post was done with the perspective of hindsight
I would suggest you cite management and people’s opinion when that extension was made (re: the veteran signings).
Also, one of the things i noticed with Beane recently is his tendency to sign high risk players. With the A’s limited budget and with MLBPA’s watchful eye, I think he allocates a certain percentage of money to veterans that could be high reward (frank thomas, ben sheets, etc.) so that they could be eventually spun for more talent midseason if things don’t pan out for the a’s. this appeases the union, while also provided a good path to acquire more talent monetarily without risking the present farm system.
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
by ST on Jul 22, 2010 5:03 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Yes it was done with the perspective of hindsight, and we're hoping Beane learns from his mistakes and doesn't repeat them.
I think we all know the thinking behind signing Crisp and Sheets and Piazza and Kotsay and Loaiza and trading for Kendall. The simple fact is that it didn’t work, and it was foreseeable that it wouldn’t work because mid-priced FA are the MOST RISKY investment a GM can make. Just because you get 4 of them, doesn’t make it less so.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 22, 2010 6:19 AM PDT up reply actions
I already noted
that the mid-priced FA was very risky, especially those coming off of injury. However, they were the easiest to acquire as well and would give the most reward comparable to a long term investment in one “superstar” (if we could ever sign one).
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
by ST on Jul 22, 2010 8:24 AM PDT up reply actions
Can you prove this claim?
Because I’m not sure 4 risky guys gives the most reward. In fact, I think this is probably false.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 23, 2010 8:32 AM PDT up reply actions
I think your union argument is pretty bunk
also Ive already addressed how Beane’s reclamation projects have been a failure in part 1
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 22, 2010 9:38 AM PDT up reply actions
maybe...
but i think it does factor in the decisions of the a’s, otherwise we’d probably the Marlins-West by now…
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
Excellent piece, DFA
I hope that the A’s’ front office is asking themselves similar questions — which extensions worked? which didn’t? why? Could we have foreseen what went wrong? And also, what opportunities did we miss?
One thing I will say in defense of Beane and his group — I wouldn’t be at all surprised to find out that they’d been analyzing things along similar lines, and that they’d compared other teams’ performance on extensions to their own. After all, they have access to all the data, and doing this stuff is their job! And I think there are a lot of people who could be the A’s GM who I’m equally sure wouldn’t even consider thinking about this stuff. And that situation would be even more frustrating than what we’re facing now as A’s fans.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
If they aren't doing something like this they are either incompetent or don't care.
Im worried about them not learning (aka Wuertz)
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 22, 2010 9:34 AM PDT up reply actions
I can't disagree more in saying the Wuertz deal was bad
I think it was a great deal. He was hurt, but he’s healthy now and back to being the awesome pitcher he’s always been. They got him at a really good price for what he can do, and they can trade him at any time to a team who wants a reliever with a couple years control.
That contract is not only team friendly, it also increases Wuertz’s trade value a lot.
He’s not even in the same universe as the other relievers mentioned.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 23, 2010 7:47 AM PDT up reply actions
Reliever coming off a career year with a history of arm problems is a terrible idea
he was unlikely to earn a lot in arbitration because he doesn’t have a lot of saves, so going year to year would probably be about the same without the risk of catestrophic injury.
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 23, 2010 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions
don't forget the option
that was the whole bargain from the a’s end. they assumed risk by guaranteeing 2011 at $2.8M and in exchange got a cheap option for 2012.
I forgot to mention this in my earlier post
And jd44 hit right on the head. Wuertz was a great extension-signing.
"By the end of the year, I'll have Dallas throwing right-handed'' -Ben Sheets
Nice post, but I have to disagree with you regarding the veteran hitters
Chavez was a good deal at the time. Of course it didn’t work out anything like expected, but it was as sound an investment as a team could make at the time it was signed. They signed him prior to the 2004 season, after he had just played 150 games for four straight years. Through their age 27 seasons, Chavez and Scott Rolen were essentially the same player. Rolen’s a borderling HOF-er now, and it was a damn good bet that with 31 WAR through age 27, Chavez had a shot at that type of territory too.
You mention others like the Dye and Kotsay deals, but Chavez’s is the salient one. That’s the miss that really, really hurt this franchise during the second half of the 00’s, and the main culprit is simply bad luck.
And let’s keep in mind that veteran extensions are, in general, not really good bets. You’re almost always paying for the pre-peak and peak performance, but getting the post-peak years on a long, guaranteed deal that you can’t get out of. This will definitely be true of Carl Crawford, who will turn 30 in the first year of his free agent deal.
Just take a look around at some of the veteran FA deals out there: Soriano, Carlos Lee, Vernon Wells… these are unmitigated disasters even without injury. And even the good ones, like Ichiro, A-Rod 1, Manny, and possibly recent ones like Holliday, Teixeira, Mauer — even on these “good” deals, the best case is breaking even. You’re essentially taking on huge risk with an upside of 0.
Doing these types of deals is for teams like the Sox and Yankees, who could spend their time developing young players and filling their rosters with 3 WAR guys who are bargains, but then would be left without enough to compete. They have to spend at market rate to get 5-6 WAR guys, and they have the guaranteed, long-term money supply to absorb the hit when some of those don’t work out.
Why don't you make like a tree, and get out of here.
The Chavez deal: Great process, shitty outcome
Im not talking about signing FA but about extending folks so I think if you look at the deals for extensions they are almost always good
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 22, 2010 9:26 PM PDT up reply actions
What types of extensions though?
I was specifically singling out the veteran hitters. You may have a point in that the signing team could get slightly more leverage on extensions than on signing free agents from another team, but in the end you’re paying for the same type of thing: free agent years (as opposed to arb or pre-arb years).
Extending arb or pre-arb players is almost always going to be good, yes, and I have no argument with your analysis of that area. When you’re talking about buying free agent years, however, crappy extensions happen all the time, especially for big time stars. Just this past offseason we had Mauer, Howard, and Holliday. Best case scenario for all those guys is that they provide production equal to their FA market value over the course of their deals. That’s best case (maybe Mauer’s absolute best case is to perform a little above his deal, but not much). Chances are these guys are all huge liabilities perhaps just half way through their deals.
I don’t know enough about the A’s mid-level veteran extensions (Dye, Kotsay) to make a useful comment on those, but perhaps it would be good to compare them to other recent ones. I suspect that there are a few hits on this type of deal and a lot of misses.
For the one big one that Beane has done, Chavez, I don’t think we can fault him in the least. Once again Rolen is a good comparison. Cot’s has him at 8/$90 prior to his age 28 season. That means the Cards gave him $11.25 million/year for his age 28-35 seasons. The A’s extended Chavez for his age 27-32 seasons for the same rate, $11 million/year. For essentially equivalent players, that right there is a better deal, as it starts one year earlier and goes for less years. And Fangraphs has Rolen at 34-35 WAR over that period (and counting), a clear win despite the fact that Rolen himself has not been an ironman.
Why don't you make like a tree, and get out of here.
by thelincolndude on Jul 23, 2010 9:37 AM PDT up reply actions
Interesting post.
I don’t think the metric you chose to evaluate Beane’s success in reupping arbitration eligible pitchers, though—you’re giving him too much credit. The surplus value tells us something, but what it really tells s is that the A’s have been very successful at developing pitching, not at paying for it.
If you want to argue that Beane’s extensions to pre-FA pitchers have been a great financial success, you need to compare what they’ve been paid to an approximation of what they would have received in arbitration, and/or in any free agent year that was bought out. That’s an inexact science, but a far more accurate representation of savings.
I don’t think your post illustrates Beane’s successes and failures in contract negotiations so much as it illustrates that developing talent is a far more productive enterprise for a financially limited team than signing it on the open market, because the latter introduces far greater risk. That said, your post does hint at a couple of things Beane could do better—a) quit gambling on injury risks so much, and b) realize that relief pitchers are a dime a dozen.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Corrected first sentence
I don’t think the metric you chose to evaluate Beane’s success in reupping arbitration eligible pitchers is a good one, though—you’re giving him too much credit.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
I think Beane does realize relievers are a dime a dozen
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jul 23, 2010 7:44 AM PDT up reply actions
I think that this is a fairly good critique
The thing is that arby salaries will show even more savings on the pitching than what I showed.
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 23, 2010 11:36 AM PDT up reply actions
Really?
I haven’t yet attempted this, but am under the general impression that while arby years are more expensive than pre-arby years, they’re still considerably cheaper than the open market, upon which (I assume) surplus value is based.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
I wrote this backwards it should be less savings
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 23, 2010 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions
They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.
I'm here to talk about the past.
Don, do you like films about gladiators?
[bans self]
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Check the vector, Victor.
She lives by the wall, and waits by the door.
She walks in the sun, to me.

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