Laying It Out on the Table: Questions to Ponder
|
Season |
Win % |
X |
Finish Place |
Average Athletics |
Average AL Team |
Y |
|
2000 |
0.565 |
6.5 |
1st in AL West |
19,922 |
27,933 |
-28.7 |
|
2001 |
0.63 |
13 |
2nd in AL West |
26,339 |
28,964 |
-9.1 |
|
2002 |
0.636 |
13.6 |
1st in AL West |
26,788 |
27,258 |
-1.7 |
|
2003 |
0.593 |
9.3 |
1st in AL West |
27,365 |
27,059 |
1.1 |
|
2004 |
0.562 |
6.2 |
2nd in AL West |
27,179 |
28,894 |
-5.9 |
|
2005 |
0.543 |
4.3 |
2nd in AL West |
26,040 |
29,141 |
-10.6 |
|
2006 |
0.574 |
7.4 |
1st in AL West |
24,402 |
30,355 |
-19.6 |
|
2007 |
0.469 |
-3.1 |
3rd in AL West |
23,726 |
31,209 |
-24 |
|
2008 |
0.466 |
-3.4 |
3rd in AL West |
19,986 |
30,432 |
-34.3 |
|
2009 |
0.463 |
-3.7 |
4th in AL West |
17,392 |
28,459 |
-38.9 |
First of all, can you guess what the “X” and the “Y” represent [the two columns just to the left of the "Y" column are attendance figures]?
Put yourself in the place as the Athletics owner while looking at this table: what do you think about this?
Would you instruct your general manager to increase the money spent on player salaries when your average team’s attendance is much lower than the average American League team -- even as your team has a better than average win percentage and is competitive?
If revenue and league revenue-sharing are combined and operating costs are subtracted to get to gross profit, then looking at this table would you be more apt to: 1) raise operating costs in the hopes that your product quality increases while bringing in more revenue or 2) trim operating costs hoping that the total combined revenue might cover costs and generate more gross profit (or less of a loss)?
Would you pull a Jed Clampett and “move away from there”; going to a place where fielding a winning product might actually be rewarded with something better than what you’re currently getting from your customers (fans)?
If the team’s valuation – in the hypothetical event that you go to sell it – continues to increase, does it render the previous questions moot?
Is it risky to assume that the team’s valuation – in the hypothetical event that you go to sell it – will continue to increase given the macroeconomic landscape going forward?
Because baseball operations isn’t your only money-making venture, should you subsidize the baseball operations just because you have the ability to do so and because you want your supportive [?] fans happy? [if “yes”, recheck “X” and “Y”]
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Comments
If you're buying a baseball team merely to profit off revenue sharing, resale, and construction projects
then don’t buy one.
You disrespect all of us who treat it as a civic religion.
"Why does anyone quit anything? It’s because they think there’s no point."- Joe Posnanski, 7/9/10
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jul 14, 2010 9:31 AM PDT up reply actions
A bunch of guys that pray to Hondas.
SIG SPACE AVAILABLE FOR SPONSORSHIP. INQUIRE WITHIN.
by mikev on Jul 14, 2010 9:37 AM PDT up reply actions 4 recs
We Civicians do not discriminate by gender. We welcome men and women into our fold.
Don't be such Ynoa et al. -- oblique
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 14, 2010 9:47 AM PDT up reply actions
Nice.
A comment fit to be recommended of its own accord. Hopefully, a prelude of other clever posts you’re piloting, though be careful with the religion stuff—you wouldn’t want to get a CRV.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on Jul 14, 2010 10:01 AM PDT up reply actions 8 recs
I wanted a Fit, but went for the Civic instead.
Don't be such Ynoa et al. -- oblique
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 14, 2010 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions
I was thinking of getting one sometime
No real need right now, though the extra room would be nice.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
TWSS
Keep in mind, of course, that "the best defense of Derek Jeter's life" ranks somewhere in between "the best fiscal responsibility of Mike Tyson's life" and "the best not-getting-assassinated-ness of James Garfield's life." -FJM
She likes the Vigor, too.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
One by one:
Q: Would you instruct your general manager to increase the money spent on player salaries when your average team’s attendance is much lower than the average American League team — even as your team has a better than average win percentage and is competitive?
A: Maybe
If I’m the owner the only thing I care about is how much money I make. My only instruction is to the team CEO to give me a particular rate of return on my investment. The CEO is supposed to set the overall budget and then tell the GM what the player budget is.
Most likely the CEO’s plan to make me money involves growing revenues, and the overall budget should be whatever is required to meet the revenue growth objective.
My hope is that the player budget is based on what will make me the most money, and probably average team attendance relative to my team’s attendance is not relevant to that.
Q: Would you pull a Jed Clampett and "move away from there"; going to a place where fielding a winning product might actually be rewarded with something better than what you’re currently getting from your customers (fans)?
A: Yes, if that is how I make the most money. No, if I can make more by staying put and changing the business plan
Q: If the team’s valuation – in the hypothetical event that you go to sell it – continues to increase, does it render the previous questions moot?
A: I want the CEO’s plan to maximize the team’s valuation, so impact on team valuation is the most important thing to me in any decision. If your question relates to environmental factors that have an impact on business value, then I have no control over those and the only way that has an impact on my decision is whether or not to sell. I would sell if I thought the risk was too high or the upside not enough.
Q: Because baseball operations isn’t your only money-making venture, should you subsidize the baseball operations just because you have the ability to do so and because you want your supportive [?] fans happy? [if "yes", recheck "X" and "Y"]
A: No fucking way.
Don't be such Ynoa et al. -- oblique
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 14, 2010 9:21 AM PDT reply actions 2 recs
I actually agree with most of your conclusions.
In particular, that your team’s attendance relative to average team attendance is probably not relative to the player budget. I think that’s true even for owners who have different motivations.
But this bugs me:
If I’m the owner the only thing I care about is how much money I make.
I hear this all the time, and I think it’s wrong and misleading. I’m not saying that making money doesn’t matter. Of course it matters. But to reduce it to a simplified formula where increasing profit is the only consideration is an absurd caricature that doesn’t reflect reality.
If you’re a bazillionaire who can afford to buy a baseball team, there are a lot of avenues available for investment of your bazillions. You can buy a media corporation, you can buy giant shopping centers, you can buy oilfields, you can buy biotechnology research, you can buy a baseball team, you can buy some combination of these. Which you choose to buy is not solely a function of which one your financial advisor tells you will yield the highest return. Sure, you want a decent return and you don’t want to lose your investment, but to a large extent you’re going to pick something that you want to own.
Let’s scale it down. When you go to work — whether it’s as an attorney, a veterinarian, a software engineer, or an advertising salesman — you’re pretty much going to work in order to make money. If you didn’t make money, you wouldn’t do it. But which one you choose is not just a function of what gives you the best return for your labor. Part of it is what you like to do.
Why does anyone want to get rich anyway? You want to get rich because then you can have cool things and do cool stuff. You want to get super-rich because they you can have super-cool things and do super-cool stuff. Super-cool stuff like own a baseball team. Bazillionaires who buy baseball teams aren’t just generic bazillionaires. They are bazillionaires who think it’s cool to own a baseball team.
Making money is very important, but not for its own sake. It is important as a means to an end. Suppose you quit your boring day job and open up a sports bar. You will very much want to make money. The reason is because if you don’t make money, you’ll go broke, be unable to pay the bills, and you’ll have to shut down the sports bar and go back to your boring day job. And that would suck.
Baseball owners need to make money because if they don’t they won’t be baseball owners any more. Plus, making more money is always better than not. But to pretend that making money is the only thing an owner cares about, and he’d just as soon have sunk the same investment into an office park if he thought that would give a better return, is silly. Worse, it leads one to erroneous conclusions.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
by iglew on Jul 14, 2010 3:36 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Microeconomics in a nutshell
Profit comes in many forms but overall satisfaction [or, ‘utility’, in economic jargon] is what is really the thing that is being maximized. Sometimes it is even giving away things to others that need it more than you do that brings the most utility. That, and everyone has places their own individual value on what brings them utility. For some it’s as simple as being adored by others.
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 14, 2010 3:44 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes, I'm familiar with the economic concept of utility.
People need to stop equating utility with money. It’s a simplistic view and it’s bad economics.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
True. And I did not mean to insult your intelligence.
But money, by itself, can often purchase things that bring utility. That’s why it is usually the focus of discussion of economics.
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 14, 2010 3:58 PM PDT up reply actions
Money is just a unit of measurement.
It happens to be a convenient one, but you could just as logically measure everything in gold and then say gold can be used to obtain money.
The problem comes when people mistake the measurement unit for the real thing. I see this all the time at the scale of small businesses. Why would a business owner hire his brother-in-law instead of hiring some other guy who will work harder for less? Why would you sell this environmentally-friendly widget when you could make more money sellling this other widget?
People want to make money in order to spend it on certain personal goals. If they can “cut out the middle-man” by achieving parts of those goals by making less money in the first place, they will do so.
Baseball owners have personal goals, too.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
A-greed [prounounced "Uh.Greed"; shitty pun intended]
The mistake happens when others try and attribute their own desired personal goals onto someone else. These kind of mistakes happen all of the time. Too often, unfortunately.
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 14, 2010 4:42 PM PDT up reply actions
money isn't a unit of measurement as a much a means for transfer of utility.
in which the process of making utils fungible often destroys utilis.
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 14, 2010 6:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Reply fail, AGAIN!
That comment was a response to you, WC.
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 14, 2010 9:25 AM PDT up reply actions
I think if I was the owner I wouldn't have been trashing my consumer base since before I even took over the company.
That might have been a good starting point. If Lew Wolff ran GM, the business plan would be running advertisements telling Americans they sucked for not buying GMs.
Agreed.
Don't be such Ynoa et al. -- oblique
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 14, 2010 9:29 AM PDT up reply actions
I disagree on the advertisement front
When did the Wolff/Fisher group ever run ads that said the team sucked? Newspaper articles discussing a possible move, or the blatant fact that the coliseum is outdated do not count
"I was right and you were wrong." - Ray Fosse
I'd say those things count very much.
Don't be such Ynoa et al. -- oblique
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 14, 2010 10:37 AM PDT up reply actions
Okay, let's agree that 3rd party press counts
Please direct me to the place where Wolff says that consumer (fans) were terrible? Does he lament that they don’t come as often as he would like? I’m sure he does. But he doesn’t directly say to A’s fans, don’t bother.
Now, you can make a very good case that by dismissing the venue as old, and the city as unwilling to work with him, he is in part, saying that the fan base isn’t behind him. I never took that as a “you suck and you’re dumb for not coming more” Am I in the minority there?
IMO, it’s a great angle for the local beat writers to explain why the attendance is down, and now people are running with it.
"I was right and you were wrong." - Ray Fosse
by kbtoyz on Jul 14, 2010 11:00 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
If you agree that Wolff has been running down the venue and telling others that
Oakland and its fans are inadequate for a major league team then we’re in agreement.
Don't be such Ynoa et al. -- oblique
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 14, 2010 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions
If Wolff has done this...
…is he incorrect? There’s no way to sugarcoat this [apologies to the fans that do support this team], it would be true to say that the venue is inadequate and the fans [aggregate fan] have not supported the team even when it was good. The truth #^%&ing hurts!
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 14, 2010 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions
WHERE THE HELL DID LEW SAY THAT THE FANS WERE INADEQUATE?
Find me the quote!
by LoneStranger on Jul 14, 2010 11:36 AM PDT up reply actions
Here's a quote from his interview with AN
And we’re thankful for those people in the East Bay and Oakland that come to the game but we’re not the largest draw. I hate to talk about our attendance because the people who come are the only ones who have to hear about it. The other ones who don’t come don’t really care. The main thing is that we’re trying to do the right thing and if somebody feels we’re not, well, that’s their prerogative
Now find me a rebuttal quote where he says the fans are adequate to support a team in Oakland to his satisfaction.
This tells me he thinks the number of fans is inadequate. Here’s a quote from a press release
Sadly, the business and corporate base of the city of Oakland was very limited when we purchased the team and has eroded since. Our attendance and low number of season ticket holders (both one of the lowest in Major league Baseball) also continues to decline; even when our on-field performance produced play-off participation.
Don't be such Ynoa et al. -- oblique
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 14, 2010 12:06 PM PDT up reply actions
HE IS DEAD-ON!
He is telling it like it is. And he’s even saying it diplomatically. What the heck was he supposed to say in an interview with AN? I’m not even sure what the question was he was responding to [and I’m too lazy to dig for it]. But doesn’t he kind of owe it to AN to explain why he’s openly trying to move the venue to Fremont or SJ? And aren’t we big enough boys and girls here to understand his position from a mature, business-like, perspective.
I think this needs to be said, flame war be damned. The biggest reason why this team isn’t placating its fans is because the fans [non NRAFs who visit this site (and others like them) excluded] have stopped showing the love, first. This is everything…the last layer of the preverbial onion that’s been peeled back. Is a lot of AN in denial about this?
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 14, 2010 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
dude is still making money off the A's
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 14, 2010 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions
dude is still making money off the A's
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 14, 2010 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions
nice
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 14, 2010 6:23 PM PDT up reply actions
You can say it twice...
…It doesn’t change the fact that, if true [that he’s still netting a profit through baseball operations], he wants to make even more of a profit. I guess he figures he could do that in a different locale. He could just as easily sell the team and go with his next best [maybe even better] profit-making opportunity. But it is his prerogative to do with this team what he wants.
We, as fans, can complain about this. It does not change the fact that was he is saying [in those quotes] is any less true. And that truth, apparently, hurt real badly here.
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 14, 2010 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions
I wouldn't mind him selling the team,
especially if Reggie Jackson were able to get another group together to buy it.
"Why does anyone quit anything? It’s because they think there’s no point."- Joe Posnanski, 7/9/10
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jul 14, 2010 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions
No one's trying to say he's not within his rights.
We’re just saying he’s an asshole. And by the way, the A’s weren’t that far off the league average in attendance for the first half of the 2000s. That’s what on-field success gets you. It wouldn’t have been difficult for Lew to spend just enough to keep that level of on-field success going, and it wouldn’t have been difficult for him to spruce up the Coliseum and reach out to the community either, which could easily have boosted season averages over 30,000.
by JonathanNathan on Jul 14, 2010 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions
On-field success -- to the degree that the Athletics provided it until 2006
— should have produced something much better than league average. The team drew just over league average just once in that span. Just look at the damned numbers in that table and tell me there’s not a problem. That shit is indefensible. Yet, it’s being ignored, avoided, and whitewashed. Why are some people trying to pass this off the lack of a good product now [the current team as a product] is causing the lack of fan interest? Clearly, the lack of fan interest occured first. WTF!
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 14, 2010 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions
Probably because both things are factors.
This isn’t either-or. You can’t deny that the 2009 number, 17392, is much lower than the 2003 number, 27365. That’s just a few shy of a full 10,000-fan dropoff. That has to be related to on-field performance.
As to the question of whether fan indifference was present even in the best of times, yes, clearly the A’s should have been doing better numbers between 2000 and 2006. Is the answer, then, just that Oakland and its fans suck? Of course not. Al Davis can pack out the Coliseum—untarped—when the Raiders are doing well. So it has to be some other factor. And I would argue that this other factor has a lot to do with the awful things Schott said about the city for years, things which Wolff—at best—did not endeavor to repudiate or reverse, and at worst simply continued saying, albeit in a slightly more professional manner.
I don’t think it would be that hard to get 30,000 people to buy a ticket to an A’s game consistently. But Wolff would have needed to do some things differently, and he just didn’t do them. He did not make an effort to court the fans.
by JonathanNathan on Jul 14, 2010 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions
The 2006 number is also lower than the 2003 number. 2003 was the peak
and attendance has dropped every year, even in 2006 when the team went to the ALCS.
Also the economy has totally fucking tanked, which has to be factored in as well.
SIG SPACE AVAILABLE FOR SPONSORSHIP. INQUIRE WITHIN.
It doesn't help
That the Giants have packed their, state of the art stadium night in and night out since its inception, with (roughly) similar on-field results as the A’s.
Wolff is a real estate developer. Part of the reason he purchased the A’s was probably to use a new stadium as a center piece for a larger residential and/or commercial development, which he can profit on. He wants to invest his time and money in this project to help himself, and the A’s.
why should league average be the benchmark?
just because the starbucks in Stockton doesn’t get average franchise traffic doesn’t mean that its either not profitable or a bad idea to put one there
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 14, 2010 6:27 PM PDT up reply actions
Why shouldn't it be?
Let me turn the tables: as a fan, why do you care about what the team’s place in the standings — I mean, if they’re playing over .500, isn’t that good enough?
If you look further down-thread, there was a link posted discussing the relationship between revenue and what is spent on player’s salaries.
We could keep going around and around on this and I’d be getting really really repetitive. I just don’t understand you position on this — it seems that you want ownership to spend money on talent and go into a deficit just to please fans by trying to field a winning team; the “if you build it, they will come” theory. And what I’ve been trying to convey is that there’s no evidence to support that ‘they’ would come. Either way, the owner is left with losses.
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 15, 2010 6:37 AM PDT up reply actions
That isn't my position at all
First let me say that your analogy is a poor one and not comparable. The whole point of playing baseball is to try to make the playoffs and win the world series. You cant do that at 83 wins. Therefore, no a .500 benchmark doesn’t make sense. Just like it doesn’t make sense with attendance as you are trying to do. The benchmark that is appropriate is profit. It makes sense to have the starbucks because quite frankly it makes no economic loss (aka it profits in layman’s terms). Whether it makes more profit that other franchises is irrelevant. The only thing is relevant is profit. I believe that with revenue sharing the A’s are one of the more profitable teams (I cant remember the link but I think it was forbes)
Im not suggesting that Wolfe spend more money than hes making on player salaries but the dude is making money right now. My point is if youre making money why do you need to make more money?
You have done absolutely nothing to show that Wolfe is losing money right now, is likely to in the future unless there is a new stadium, or that Oakland couldn’t support level of profit that would make the financial risk that Wolfe takes owning the team negligible and that burden is on you to do so. Until you can prove that Wolfs desire to move the team out of Oakland can only be considered a move as a result of greed.
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 15, 2010 9:05 AM PDT up reply actions
profitable business =/= high-revenue business
First, we know that profitable teams do not necessarily win and unprofitable teams sometimes do. We also know that revenues matter in baseball. The Yankees don’t win because they are profitable (although, that helps), they win because their revenues support a higher level of payroll.
Think of it like this: If you make $2000 a month as a person, you can cut your expenses to $1000 a month and have a “profit” of $1000 a month. If you make $5000 a month, but have $4500 in expenses, then you have less profit of $500 a month. But, there is no denying that whatever the person who spends $4500 is getting, it’s probably better than what the person who spends $1000 a month is.
That’s where the issue is. Sometimes you have to make more money if you want nicer stuff. The A’s simply need more money.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!
by cuppingmaster on Jul 15, 2010 9:44 AM PDT up reply actions
I was an econ major i know what revenue and profit are.
Nowhere have I said that the A’s budget is insufficient (though I acknowledge that more revenue would help that).
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 15, 2010 10:52 AM PDT up reply actions
Then you must already know the answer to this question
Im not suggesting that Wolfe spend more money than hes making on player salaries but the dude is making money right now. My point is if youre making money why do you need to make more money?
Yes, people like to make more money. Unless he puts a truly crappy product on the field, he’s not going to make anymore money. Having new revenue streams is pretty much the only viable way to make more money.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!
by cuppingmaster on Jul 15, 2010 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions
no what im suggesting is that the A's are currently opperating in the graph below
at 0 economic profit, which is what one should look for.
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 15, 2010 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions
you should explain what that graph is trying to show below
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!
by cuppingmaster on Jul 15, 2010 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions
That firms are suppose to opperate at 0 economic profit
(yeah i know its not exactly a perfectly competitive market) but the argument im making is that Wolfe is seeking economic profit when he should be satisfied with 0 economic profit.
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 15, 2010 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions
why would any owner be satisfied with stagnation? or lower profit?
The point is to put the A’s on a playing field where they can compete reliably. I suspect other teams aren’t satisfied with 0 economic profit
Here’s another take: he can’t exactly sell the team now. The A’s would sell for a record low amount and he and his partners would lose money. His ONLY way out is to a stadium that makes enough money to at least have him break even.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!
by cuppingmaster on Jul 15, 2010 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions
How do you figure he couldn't sell now?
He bought the team for $180MM, and it’s currently worth $295MM.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
The team does not have a stable financial future
And any owner would inherit this stadium problem. I’m not sure he’d have many takers at that price.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!
by cuppingmaster on Jul 15, 2010 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions
I really doubt it.
It’s still a professional sports franchise.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
That's not the theory
The theory is that everyone in that market [what you are currently engaged in, in business, along with your direct competitors] operates at zero economic profits in the long run. Some businesses with the particular market dip below economic profits…and then that market contracts as those that are not making an economic profit exit. Then, sometimes, one or more firms exceed their economic profit…and, when that happens, new businesses enter the particular market and nab some of the profits that are out there for themselves. The whole goal is to operate at higher than a zero economic profit for as long as you can.
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 15, 2010 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions
!
My point is if youre making money why do you need to make more money?
Are you serious? I want you to show the person that you work for this post. And, if you work for yourself, please show your clients.
You have done absolutely nothing to show that Wolfe is losing money right now…
Yeah, um, Wolff and Fisher do not give me access to their financial statements from their baseball operations. On the flipside, you’ve done nothing to show that they have the payroll flexibility to go out and get the type of players that you want them to get [from past comments of yours].
The benchmark that is appropriate is profit. It makes sense to have the starbucks because quite frankly it makes no economic loss (aka it profits in layman’s terms).
Do you know what ‘opportunity costs’ mean? Not losing money is simply not good enough, especially when there are better alternatives. Apparently the alternative is to move to a more suitable and fan friendly environment [and the current enironment’s suitablity can be demonstrated with the supposed bad benchmark that you call average AL attendance…showing that this team is not adequately fan-supported compared with other like-orginazations…even when the on-field product IS making the playoffs]
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 15, 2010 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions
On the flipside, you’ve done nothing to show that they have the payroll flexibility to go out and get the type of players that you want them to get
How about the fact that they spent 70 mil on payroll in 2007? That seems pretty flexible.
by JonathanNathan on Jul 15, 2010 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions
How could they sustain $70m each year
without the adequate revenue? Eventually they’d be broke, right?
by LoneStranger on Jul 15, 2010 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions
did they lose money in 07? I don't think so
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 15, 2010 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions
Really?
And you know this, how, exactly?
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 15, 2010 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions
forbes
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 15, 2010 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions
Alright then
What were the revenue, revenue sharing, and total baseball operating expenses in 2007?
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 15, 2010 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions
They'd actually probably be able to spend even MORE than that
and still not go broke.
by JonathanNathan on Jul 15, 2010 12:37 PM PDT up reply actions
And what was their attendance the year prior?
And then what happened?
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 15, 2010 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions
The Forbes data
suggests the A’s are plenty profitable and could choose to reinvest a significant amount of OI back into R&D (if you want to think of player payroll in that sense). For all we know, though, they’re squirreling it away to fund infrastructure, since that could in theory create a much larger revenue stream with which to fund the R&D.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
this
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 15, 2010 12:36 PM PDT up reply actions
And it's this that you don't care for, right?
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 15, 2010 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions
what don't I care for?
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 15, 2010 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions
define large
my current girl friend is one of if not the shortest women ive dated in years and shes 5’8"
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 15, 2010 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions
I dunno, I was channeling The Princess Bride right then.
I kinda got crossed up between the fight with the giant and the ROUSes.
Pam liked my old sig better.
I'm going to say (and I'm guessing here)...
…that you don’t like the ownership keeping its supposed profits for whatever reason it has chosen — whether that reason is just to have more or whether they are sitting on assets that they will eventually use to have converted into a new venue?
That you want the current ownership to spend that money now. On players that will help the team right now. Is that accurate?
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 15, 2010 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions
no
I have never complained about not being able to spend more money on players.
Im for the status quo and think that if Lew Wolfe isn’t he should sell the team (and make a healthy profit in doing so) so someone that is happy to make money but not money hand over fist in the status quo.
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 15, 2010 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions
I think you're in the minority here of people who are for the status quo
Even pro-Oakland stadium people want a new place.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!
by cuppingmaster on Jul 15, 2010 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Oh.
I have never complained about not being able to spend more money on players.
Well that changes everything. I thought that this was your gripe.
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 15, 2010 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions
no
I want a stadium that i can get a walk up ticket for <15 bucks, that is easily accessible from my house via public transport, and a team that makes smart player/personnel moves within a medium size budget (like the A’s currently have).
The rest I couldn’t give a damn about.
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 15, 2010 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Your desires, if replicated by others
severely hamstring the team’s ability to compete with the rest of the league
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!
by cuppingmaster on Jul 15, 2010 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm with DFA on this.
It’s moot for me now, but when I lived in Oakland I loved the cheap walk-up tickets and relative emptiness of the stadium. I did not at all mind the relative lack of noise and carnivalish distraction.
So, yeah, count me with the hamstringers.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Yea, I love this too.
But I also love a full Coli chanting Let’s Go Oakland and not Let’s Go Red Sox (or Yankees).
And I’d really, really love a team who can sign some stars to back up the gems we’ve found and the studs we drafted.
by LoneStranger on Jul 15, 2010 4:08 PM PDT up reply actions
this is why we are friends
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 15, 2010 5:50 PM PDT up reply actions
and the Marlins won two world series like that
so no it doesn’t. You just have to spend money better than others.
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 15, 2010 5:49 PM PDT up reply actions
The Marlins bought one championship in 1997
And were supremely lucky in 2003.
Did you even read the JoePo article? It’s hard to conclude that the answer is “spend smarter”
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!
by cuppingmaster on Jul 15, 2010 6:23 PM PDT up reply actions
which JoePo article
and I think Larry Bienfiest is genius
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 15, 2010 10:06 PM PDT up reply actions
This one
http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2010/04/19/forbes-and-yankees/
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!
by cuppingmaster on Jul 15, 2010 10:55 PM PDT up reply actions
that article really doesn't support what you are saying
in fact the article basically points out that the A’s would need to increase annual revenue by 300m in order to compete financially with the Yankees. Guess what a new stadium isn’t going to do that.
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 16, 2010 2:09 AM PDT up reply actions
No, it won't
But I’ve never said we have to compete with the Yankees. But we do have get ourselves to middle of the pack at least.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!
by cuppingmaster on Jul 16, 2010 7:35 AM PDT up reply actions
why? there really is no logical reason why that is true
we competed just fine in the early 2000s
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 16, 2010 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions
That explains why you're so pissed off.
- suggestions that the team would be better off by moving
- possible ticket price increases in new venue
-possibly more difficult access to suit your traveling need
- recent personnel moves that you, yourself,could have done much better with
Gee, with the rest being of no concern of yours, I think the demands of your entitlements can be met going forward. Anything else?
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 15, 2010 7:05 PM PDT up reply actions
I think this is a baiting CGV
especially since we both just got strikes for your last attempt to show me that you can in fact be a bigger dick than me.
Im really not sure why you think that my position is unreasonable. The team proposes to charge me more and make it more difficult to access. Moving to SJ would actually make it more likely that I go to the what is likely to be cheaper and much much easier to get to phone booth. Which is basically an abomination. Why am I suppose to be happy with that?
As for the personnel decisions, youre right I think a Depodesta or Kim Eng would be better than Beane/Frost at this juncture, Im not sure why you think that im proposing that I take over.
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 15, 2010 8:34 PM PDT up reply actions
if your loyalties are so fluid
Then why are you on here so much? The one thing I am afraid of if the team eventually does move to SJ is exactly your sentiment:
I currently have a sweetheart deal in cheap seats, walkups, and easy accessibility.
Team moving to SJ makes them farther for me.
AT&T Park is closer.
Ergo, go Giants.
I guess if it’s like that for a subset of fans, there’s not much you can do but hope you find plenty more to replace them.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!
by cuppingmaster on Jul 15, 2010 10:59 PM PDT up reply actions
Maybe the guy just wants to watch some baseball
and not have to pay 50 bucks to go rub elbows with a bunch of techie billionnaires and suburban yuppies who leave in the seventh.
by JonathanNathan on Jul 15, 2010 11:13 PM PDT up reply actions
To be clear, that wasn't a San Jose dig.
That was a “people who only come to brand new ballparks” dig. And to be even clearer, I’m in favor of a new ballpark. I just also see DFA’s point.
by JonathanNathan on Jul 15, 2010 11:18 PM PDT up reply actions
oh, so do I
Given the choice, of course I’d pick no lines, easy scheduling, and cheap seats. But, I also know that those things generally mean my team is in trouble.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!
by cuppingmaster on Jul 15, 2010 11:23 PM PDT up reply actions
YES!
Drop the “me, me, me” thinking and that’s exactly right.
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 16, 2010 2:34 AM PDT up reply actions
or it could be 2000-2006
but you know whatever.
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 16, 2010 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions
My loyalty isn't fluid
I just will listen to the games on MLB At bat and won’t go. Ill be more likely to walk the 10 blocks to the phone booth for the game rather than going to SJ especially when I could see the game at pac bell for what it would cost me to take cal trans to the A’s new stadium in SJ
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 16, 2010 2:03 AM PDT up reply actions
The definition of fluidity in baseball fandom
Is when you attend another team’s games for convenience’s sake.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!
by cuppingmaster on Jul 16, 2010 7:39 AM PDT up reply actions
Not necessarily.
I suspect his team will always be the A’s. And I suspect he’ll attend more games in San Jose than he thinks he will. If they moved to Jacksonville or San Antonio or something, maybe he wouldn’t, but if the boys move to the South Bay, I don’t think any of us could ever stop going.
But what he’s saying is, he’s a baseball fan. And a baseball fan needs to watch baseball. There’s nothing like being at a game. Hell, if the Giants and A’s both moved to China and a Yankees single-A affiliate moved to town, I’d go watch them play. I just want to watch baseball.
by JonathanNathan on Jul 16, 2010 9:55 AM PDT up reply actions
If the A's move out of Oakland and not to SF
I would prefer them to go to Portland over SJ personally.
The rest of it is a fair approximation of my point. The A’s would be my team but if I just wanted to watch a game on sunday Im not going to take an hour and a half train ride that costs me 15 bucks to SJ when I can walk to pac bell and get a bleacher ticket for the same price.
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 16, 2010 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions
Lets say you live in LA
would you not go see Angles games even though your an A’s fan and doing so hurts the A’s because its more revenue for the Angles?
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 16, 2010 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions
?
Im really not sure why you think that my position is unreasonable.
I think your position is more selfish than anything.
Say, did you really flag me for what I wrote above? By the way, the first paragraph…nice touch!
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 16, 2010 3:04 AM PDT up reply actions
Don't you think its the height of hypocrasy to say that Lew Wolfe should move the team to SJ because he isn't satisfying his own selfish interests
and yet Im a dick because I want my selfish interests satisfied.
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 16, 2010 12:32 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm not calling you a dick
But it seems that you want the team to make good personnel moves while also catering to a lower-end spending fan…a fan that doesn’t bring much revenue in for the cost of making him/her happy.
Your previous post came across as “gimme gimme gimme” to me. I’ll state it again: I don’t thing you are a dick but just selfish and not thinking this through from the owners perspective.
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 16, 2010 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions
your definition of good and mine are different
mine are moves that are good at a WAR/$ level. Like not fucking up Cahill’s service time twice which had absolutely nothing to do with the stadium situation or the teams availible payroll. The A’s have a sufficient payroll to compete and win if they make smart player personnel moves. They are not doing so.
Im saying that if Wolfe doesn’t want to cater to the way things are he should sell the team. Hell make a healthy profit doing so. If I am yelling gimme gimme gimme you are just being a sycophant of a greedy owner.
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 16, 2010 4:16 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm not seeing this.
The Forbes data suggests the A’s are plenty profitable
All the usual caveats that the Forbes figures are educated guesses and not substantiated books, but if by profitable you mean “the owners made good money on it”, the Forbes numbers don’t really support that.
The numbers are here.
Operating income excluding taxes and interest is $22.1 million. Capital loss on the value of the team is $8 million. So that’s $14.1 million for the year.
Now let’s guess interest. Forbes shows 30% debt/value on $295m current value, so that’s $88.5m of debt. Let’s imagine 5% interest on that debt. That’s another $4.4, bringing the gain for the year down to $9.7m. Let’s be generous and assume they’re clever enough to show zero taxable income and pay no income tax to the IRS or the FTB.
So you’ve got a $295m asset that’s earning a $10m/year return, which is a little over 3%. Factor in all the margins of error along the way, and it’s not at all clear that they’re even beating what they’d get by putting it all in a money market account.
Looks to me like Wolff et al are getting by OK in a down economy, but not exactly raking in the big bucks. What am I missing?
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Hell I get to make 3% and own a baseball team... Sign me up.
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 15, 2010 5:51 PM PDT up reply actions
yeah i think my savings account gets like < 2 % and doesn't include autographs, the owners box, nachos and shitty beer, or beign able to sit in baseball ops meetings
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 15, 2010 8:37 PM PDT up reply actions
I believe my savings account
is currently getting exactly 0.1%. I get monthly statements for, like, 38 cents interest.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
basically lew wolfe lives a hard life
and should be really upset that he isn’t making more money in SJ
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 15, 2010 10:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Who's the Mr Debate Team now?
It is my nature to be conservative with arguments because I don’t like to overestimate my case. This time I apparently overestimated the intelligence of my audience. I thought you lunkheads would pay attention and not just go “hyuk hyuk, golly, that’s a lot of money.”
Look, I bent over backwards to make conservative estimates so you couldn’t claim I was fudging my case. I assumed ZERO income tax for fuck’s sake, and the most the numbers demonstrate is 3%. Do you know how much the Dow Jones Industrial Average went up in 2009? Here’s a hint: it was more than 3%.
I’m not saying Lew is losing money. I’m just saying that when you guys say, “Whee, the Forbes numbers prove he’s making a terrific profit,” you are incorrect. Possibly he is making a terrific profit, but the Forbes numbers are not sufficient evidence to support such a claim.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Im saying hes making a sufficient profit
when combined with the non-pecuniary benefits of owning a sports team. Also I would argue there is more risk involved in the stock market than there is owning a sports team.
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 16, 2010 2:11 AM PDT up reply actions
I have no quarrel with that.
Somewhere up above you seemed to be implying that owning the A’s was particularly lucrative, and I see no evidence of that. The Forbes numbers suggest to me a run-of-the-mill investment for a sports team.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
I have a slight quarrel with it
It seems that it has always been that way and that the trend will continue. And sports teams have been very good at marketing themselves and keeping fan interest up. I’m not so sure, though, that sports teams’ valuations will continue trending at the same rate that they have. It seems as though something is going to give after being superheated for so long. Another strike, the rise in popularity of other sports (basketball and soccer, for example) amongst young people, macroeconomic factors, and anything can happen. Baseball, especially, has had a long and successful run: it better keep finding ways to stay relevent amidst all the other distractions that life has to offer.
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 16, 2010 2:54 AM PDT up reply actions
You're right
But don’t all of those things say that owning a baseball team is a pretty shoddy investment when compared to other things you could invest in?
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!
by cuppingmaster on Jul 16, 2010 7:43 AM PDT up reply actions
Exactly.
When zillionaires buy a sports team, it’s for other reasons in addition to the money. The team does make some money, but not as much as they could make investing in something else less fun and interesting.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
We're already seeing some correction.
show that in 2009 nine teams went down in market value. In 2008 eight teams went down.
In all the years before that it was just up, up, up.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
historically
the stock market returns 12% / year (large cap) and small cap is even greater at 18%. These are the benchmarks to compare the return Lew is getting on the A’s.
lol
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jul 15, 2010 10:31 AM PDT up reply actions
Starbucks may care
they have a duty to shareholders to maximize return on investment. If they are not generating required returns, shareholders should invest in other locations.
It's more than just profit from that individual store.
It’s also the advertising and brand building that comes with having one there, and anywhere really. People who are passing through or visiting Stockton see it as familiar and they’ll stop there instead of somewhere else. People from Stockton will see one when they are elsewhere and go there.
They don’t have to make money hand over fist, they only have to be close to sustaining themselves to be worth the investment.
They’ve got opening those stores down to a science, so I don’t think it costs very much for them to open one up. They are quite literally a store-in-a-box kit. This means they can go into the black much faster than random Joe Entrepreneur opening up Cup-o-Joe Cafe.
by LoneStranger on Jul 15, 2010 9:36 AM PDT up reply actions
If only current profitability were a guarantee of future profitability
There are risks in business from many different directions. Simply eeking by on tiny profits and hoping that they continue is pretty risky.
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 15, 2010 10:23 AM PDT up reply actions
I'm not saying that then entirety of Starbucks is eeking by.
You can sacrifice direct revenue from one store for the value you receive in advertising and the ‘training’ of people to use your product.
by LoneStranger on Jul 15, 2010 11:33 AM PDT up reply actions
Wow, I would have guessed that Starbucks
is a franchise operation. Turns out it’s not, though some of its programs act like quasi-franchises.
I learned something today.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Not really

He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 15, 2010 11:00 AM PDT up reply actions
This is the thing. I don't give a damn
Im fine with saying hey im not going to lose money on this venture but the whole im not making enough money (though im still making some) is bullshit IMO.
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 14, 2010 6:24 PM PDT up reply actions
yes and no
He’s an investor. Investors buy things for return on investment. He wants to generate x% returns or more. If he is < x% then he is unhappy, which he still may be profiting. This means that he could have bought something else and done better.
I don’t know if Wolff is a baseball fan, and will accept less profits to win.
He may be right (or not), but he did say the fan base was not adequate
to meet his objectives. The fact that he said it diplomatically enough for you doesn’t change the fact that he’s repeated made this statement. If he wants to move to San Jose why not talk up San Jose instead of repeating the same negative message about Oakland. If he can’t name San Jose openly, why not say he’s looking for venues in the Bay Area and that he sees a large corporate presence in various parts of the area and leave it at that. Or he could just shut up and work behind the scenes.
Don't be such Ynoa et al. -- oblique
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 14, 2010 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions
I think I would have hated him more if he'd have done the doubletalk stuff.
That’s gross, when people do that kind of thing. I credit him for basically being up-front about wanting to move to a rich suburb like Fremont or a billionairres’ playhouse like San Jose, because at least then there was a chance that Oakland could fight it.
by JonathanNathan on Jul 14, 2010 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Maybe, but it might have not depressed the attendance as much.
Don't be such Ynoa et al. -- oblique
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 14, 2010 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm not so sure.
Wouldn’t we have all kind of known what he was doing anyway? It would have allowed Dellums to be much more lackadaisical than he ended up being, while all of us would have secretly (or not-so-secretly) known all along that he was planning to move the team.
by JonathanNathan on Jul 14, 2010 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions
im on your side
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 14, 2010 6:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Ok, thanks.
I hardly think this is ‘trashing the consumer base’ though.
by LoneStranger on Jul 14, 2010 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions
That wasn't LJ's question. He asked where did Wolff say that the fans
were inadequate. Clearly if there are only a few fans, that’s not adequate.
Don't be such Ynoa et al. -- oblique
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 14, 2010 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions
but there is a difference in the fans are inadequate, and the number of fans are inadequate,
most seem to think he is saying, he doesn’t like the fans that come to the game. I think that is where LJ’s contention is, that Lew spoke derogatorily towards all fans.
by theblackpearl on Jul 14, 2010 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't see why anyone would think that the ones who attend games
are inadequate. Obviously there aren’t enough of them for Wolff.
Don't be such Ynoa et al. -- oblique
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 14, 2010 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions
But pissing and moaning doesn't solve the problem.
What did Lew actually try to do to solve the problem? All he did was bitch and kvetch. He has two-dollar tickets…to games no one can with a job can attend.
by JonathanNathan on Jul 14, 2010 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions
No.
But then again, we’re not really in much of a position to do anything. And I’m speaking of the actual fans here, the only ones that do any bitching about the A’s.
The problem, I think, that we’re discussing is not how to get people like us back into the seats—we’re already in them as often as we can be—but how to get the casual fan back into a seat. And fans don’t have much control over that. Lew Wolff has a LOT of ways he could try to solve the problem. He doesn’t. He just whines and uses it as an excuse for poor performance and zero effort on his part. Essentially, he uses the problem as an excuse to not solve the problem.
“My leg is broken.”
“Well, why don’t you go to the doctor?”
“Are you kidding? I can’t go to the doctor! My leg’s broken!”
by JonathanNathan on Jul 14, 2010 7:04 PM PDT up reply actions
You could also say Lew wants a new stadium
and believes this will bring fans into the seats. Then he can use the increased revenue to raise the player salary budget.
He wants low attendance to show Selig that they have to move the club or it will die.
Except that fan attendance isn't really what drives profitability.
It’s the corporate sponsors and box/suite ticket buyers.
by LoneStranger on Jul 15, 2010 9:41 AM PDT up reply actions
And that's fine.
But it seems insane to not do better with what you have while you’re waiting for the ship to come in. Because it’s going to take a long time, and if Lew Wolff didn’t anticipate how long this is taking, he truly is not a Bay Area sports fan. Hell, I know it would take forever, and I haven’t even lived here in my adult life until very recently. How long have the Niners been trying to get into a new stadium? How long did the Giants try? For that matter, the A’s themselves have been jockeying for a new stadium since before Schott bought the team.
by JonathanNathan on Jul 15, 2010 12:20 PM PDT up reply actions
How many fans...
But it seems insane to not do better with what you have while you’re waiting for the ship to come in.
…are on that ship that are willing to buy season tickets.
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 15, 2010 1:11 PM PDT up reply actions
even the cheapest seats in the stadium don't get sold out.
SIG SPACE AVAILABLE FOR SPONSORSHIP. INQUIRE WITHIN.
Yes. That is the acknowledged problem.
The question is how to solve it.
by JonathanNathan on Jul 14, 2010 7:05 PM PDT up reply actions
Here's a crazy idea
put a stadium in a city that wants a baseball team and doesn’t bend over backward for a football team that also doesn’t sell out
SIG SPACE AVAILABLE FOR SPONSORSHIP. INQUIRE WITHIN.
by mikev on Jul 14, 2010 7:36 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Here's another crazy scheme right back at you:
Act like you give a damn about the city your business is located in. Then maybe they’d respond better.
by JonathanNathan on Jul 15, 2010 12:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Remember when the team wanted to build a stadium downtown,
but the politicians put in apartments instead? Good times.
by LoneStranger on Jul 15, 2010 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions
It's give and take man
The city hasn’t given a damn about the team since Al Davis returned. Do you think Mt. Davis was built for the A’s sake? Hell no. Even the way it is built is entirely more suited for football. Its suitability for baseball was given third-rate status.
There’s a lot of bad blood between the team and the city, and maybe rightfully so. Do you think that the A’s or any team should be forced into an unhappy civic marriage?
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!
by cuppingmaster on Jul 15, 2010 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Children are resilient
The one’s that aren’t, should be…they need to toughen up.
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 15, 2010 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions
I've got a better idea
Why not put a great product out on the field and take the team to contention for six straight years so that the fans will come. Oh, wait…um
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 15, 2010 1:14 PM PDT up reply actions
I guess you missed the part that attendance has dropped every year since 03
Meanwhile the team was still winning?
Pam liked my old sig better.
The word inadequate appears nowhere in either of those links you provided.
SIG SPACE AVAILABLE FOR SPONSORSHIP. INQUIRE WITHIN.
I don't think we're in agreement
I may be in the minority, but I don’t mind the tarps, I think it makes for a better atmosphere most nights. He lowered beer to $5, he is doing free parking Tuesdays, the prices are still amongst the lowest in the league. This year in particular, I think the venue has improved just slightly.
My question to you WC, does Wolff’s statements make you want to come any less to the games? Do any of your friends not go because of Wolff.
Finally, can we please point out that while Wolff is in charge, he is a minority owner, and that Fisher is the one backing the whole thing.
"I was right and you were wrong." - Ray Fosse
I may be in the minority, but I don’t mind the tarps, I think it makes for a better atmosphere most nights. He lowered beer to $5, he is doing free parking Tuesdays, the prices are still amongst the lowest in the league. This year in particular, I think the venue has improved just slightly.
I think this year, Lew has made some token efforts that have worked out nicely. I’ve absolutely enjoyed the games I’ve attended this season. All of this goes to show that with a more serious effort from Lew, the Coliseum could be not-that-bad until a new stadium is built.
does Wolff’s statements make you want to come any less to the games? Do any of your friends not go because of Wolff.
I don’t think that’s the question here. Hardcore A’s fans will stick with the team. That’s the nature of sports fandom. But the casual fans are the ones that have left/were never here to begin with.
by JonathanNathan on Jul 15, 2010 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions
First of all, jeepers nails it: You have to spend money to make money
Spend to put a great product on the field, and the attendance will recoup that money plus it will broaden the available fan base for the future.
Second of all, owners make their money through the eventual sale of the team. You can lose money each year, then sell the team for a lot more than you paid to buy it, and come out ahead.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
That was the idea behing buying...
…residential properties throughout the 90s and ‘Aughts’, too.
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 14, 2010 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions
but the baseball bubble hasn't popped yet.
"Why does anyone quit anything? It’s because they think there’s no point."- Joe Posnanski, 7/9/10
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jul 14, 2010 10:29 AM PDT up reply actions
It might have, we just won't know about it till teams sell for lower than they would have three years ago
I don’t see any evidence that owners actually lose money on a cash basis or if they would lose money using depreciation and amortization rules that reflect economic value. That’s what revenue sharing is for.
Don't be such Ynoa et al. -- oblique
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 14, 2010 10:40 AM PDT up reply actions
Just curious
Does anyone know whether baseball’s antitrust exemption brings with it some responsibility on the part of team owners, e.g., to field a competitive team, or spend some threshold amount?
Remember me sometime when I am far away/and I will try and do the same/Maybe just like you someday I will forget/every hit song America ever had -- Yo La Tengo, "Lewis"
by Ray of Lite on Jul 14, 2010 10:35 AM PDT up reply actions
Nope it's a freebie
Don't be such Ynoa et al. -- oblique
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 14, 2010 10:37 AM PDT up reply actions
Answer to your question:
I figured out what X is, but what the hell is Y? I wish you’d just tell me instead of making a quiz out of it.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
"Y" equals
the percentage below [in ALL cases other than 2003] the average American League game attendance figure for the year being referenced.
The formula for “Y”: ((Average Athletics Attendance / Avg. AL Attendance) – 1) * 100. In other words, the percentage above (or below [in all case save 2003]) the league attendance of other American League teams collectively.
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 14, 2010 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't get why everyone insists on connecting
the move-to-San-Jose issue and the owner-just-wants-to-make-money issue. Seems to me those are two separate things. Why is the latter required to explain the former?
For the sake of argument, let’s assume it’s true that Lew really does want to move the team to San Jose. OK.
Now let’s imagine that Lew does not care only about profit. In fact, let’s go all the way in the other direction and imagine he is the dream owner. He’s in it only for the love of the game. He loves baseball as the civic religion. He wants to bring joy to the city, fill the stadium every night and provide a fabulous experience for everyone. He wants to field a great team and sign awesome players who are good at baseball and have great personalities. Most of all, he doesn’t care how much of his own money he loses, because this is his life’s dream. He wants to bring baseball to the people and enjoy the love of a grateful city.
Supposing all of this is true, how exactly is thiat inconsistent with him wanting to move the team to San Jose? Couldn’t he just want to have all that stuff there instead?
I’m not dissing Oakland. I love Oakland. I just don’t see the money connection here.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
by iglew on Jul 14, 2010 3:51 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
I tend to agree with this
I could be completely ignorant but my feeling is that Wolff likes baseball and wants to be the owner of a supremely successful team. He came to the conclusion that if he wants to lay out a $100M payroll and compete with the big dogs of the AL he needs to get the A’s in new stadium in San Jose to support that kind of expenditure. As a simple fan I don’t know if that conclusion is correct but I certainly understand it.
I don’t think we will ever know the true financials of baseball teams but I believe that just like every business in the world baseball expenditures are determined by revenue. If the A’s want to spend like the top teams in baseball they need to earn like the top teams in baseball and I don’t think they can do that in Oakland. I think the A’s could be a big part of a renaissance in Oakland but I don’t think the city has the will to make it happen and I can’t imagine that a professional sports team owner has the responsibility to make it happen.
by OkayJay81 on Jul 14, 2010 6:16 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
The fact that he's at so many games, both home and away,
supports the notion that he actually cares about the team and wants it to win.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I sometimes feel like I'm in the minority
but I think that Lew Wolff is a good owner. I understand that he is a business man but I feel like he really cares about creating a successful team. My dream is to have an awesome team in Oakland but I doubt that it can happen, I really just want the A’s to constantly compete in the AL. As long as the A’s stay in northern California they will be my team and I want them in the best possible situation.
It's not going to happen.
Lew could have built perennial winners in Oakland. Beane was able to make it happen before Lew. Yet somehow, post-Lew, we’re lucky if we end up a .500 club.
by JonathanNathan on Jul 14, 2010 7:06 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't understand your post
It doesn’t seem to be a response to mine but you don’t seem to understand how the real world works so I guess I shouldn’t expect anything.
Wow. Really?
“I want the A’s to be perennial contenders.”
“I don’t think that will happen under Lew Wolff.”
“FUCK YOU, YOU FUCKING FUCKWAD. YOU DON’T UNDERSTAND HOW THE WORLD WORKS.”
Let me break down for you how my post is responding to yours.
You said: “I really just want the A’s to constantly compete in the AL.”
I said: “Lew could have built perennial winners in Oakland.” The clear implication is that since Lew didn’t build a winning team during his many previous chances to do so, he won’t build a winning team in San Jose either.
See how people can have a conversation in which they disagree, while also at least maintaining a pretense of considering the other person a human being worthy of respect and dignity?
by JonathanNathan on Jul 14, 2010 7:59 PM PDT up reply actions
We had way better players from 2000-2006
That’s why we won. 2006 was the end of our winning cycle. It wouldn’t have mattered who the ownership was.
If you want to say that he should break the bank and shell out $200M on payroll, okay. But, considering that we were perennial contenders from 2000-2006 and barely broke league average attendance once, what’s to say that the same thing wouldn’t happen now if we bought a contending team through FA? That he would have spent an extra $130M on payroll for just the same amount of fans.
Do you routinely pay more for things without deriving additional benefit? I know I don’t. That’s why Oakland may not be a great idea in the future. Remember that low attendance relative to the rest of the league far predates Lew Wolff. It’s not as if he bought the team, was quoted as saying attendance is inadequate, and people stopped showing. They’ve barely showed to begin with.
If you want to say there is no guarantee that SJ will support the A’s more than Oakland does, that’s a fair argument. But, with a new stadium, more revenues to acquire better players, more corporate base, and a more affluent neighborhood nearby, the chips become stacked in favor of attracting more fan support.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!! - danmerqury
by cuppingmaster on Jul 15, 2010 1:16 AM PDT up reply actions
The Corporate Base will be key
I know that is one of the main reasons that the Giants are unwilling to let Oakland move to San Jose. These firms generate huge revenues for ballclubs via sponsorships, luxury boxes, corporate events, seats, etc.
It also won’t hurt that so many people work in the greater San Jose and could easily head to a ball game after work.
Agreed.
Lew can set payroll to $200 million in a winning cause and still lose money. Year after year.
Eventually he’d run out of money. It’s not sustainable unless the team is bringing in enough to counter the payroll. A new stadium with corporate support goes a long way toward that. You then market the hell out of the new stadium and team, and make money through merchandise too.
Dale Earnhardt has been dead for almost 10 years. He still brings in more money in merchandise than all but a handful of NASCAR drivers.
by LoneStranger on Jul 15, 2010 9:51 AM PDT up reply actions
I'm not against a new stadium.
And if the A’s move to San Jose, I’ll probably still go. Not as often, because I work in social services and I can’t spend $1,000 on BART fare, but they will always be my team.
But the A’s could build a new stadium, in Oakland, and do just as well as the Giants are doing. Everything people say to argue against a new stadium in Oakland was said to argue against a new stadium in San Francisco.
Would the Giants be doing even better numbers in San Jose? Maybe. But they seem to be doing fine in The City, and that’s just fine with me.
by JonathanNathan on Jul 15, 2010 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions
This much I agree with.
The A’s need a new stadium. It really doesn’t matter from a fiscal health point of view if it’s in San Jose or Oakland. The decision should be made based on which municipality can provide a more attractive path, NOT destination, for the ballpark.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Hmmm
But the A’s could build a new stadium, in Oakland, and do just as well as the Giants are doing. Everything people say to argue against a new stadium in Oakland was said to argue against a new stadium in San Francisco.
The A’s teams did really good from 2000-2006. These are their records from 2000-2009 with their AL attendance rank next to it (2009 at the top, 2000 at the bottom)
(75-87) 14th of 14
(75-86) 13th of 14
(76-86) 12th of 14
(93-69) 12th of 14
(88-74) 8th of 14
(91-71) 7th of 14
(96-66) 6th of 14
(103-59) 8th of 14
(102-60) 7th of 14
(91-70) 11th of 14
The Giants weren’t exactly lighting it up before the new place. These are their records from 1990-1999 with their NL attendance rank next to it (1999 at the top, 1990 at the bottom).
(86-76) 10th of 16
(89-74) 10th of 16
(90-72) 11th of 14
(68-94) 13th of 14
(67-77) 12th of 14
(55-60) 9th of 14
(103-59) 8th of 14
(72-90) 11th of 12
(75-87) 10th of 12
(85-77) 8th of 12
Save for 1993 and 1997, they were pretty mediocre. They only made the playoffs once
Let’s say for the sake of argument that the time periods for each team are equivalent. The A’s did WAY better the Giants at the same points in their stadium quest. They still did not appreciably outdraw the Giants. Not only that, but overall baseball attendance has increased in the actual 2000-2009 time period, and the A’s haven’t increased their attendance. The A’s made the playoffs 5 times in that stretch, and had winning records 7 times. That still did not bring people out.
I don’t know about you, but those data do not look promising for Oakland.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!
by cuppingmaster on Jul 15, 2010 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions
There's a competition factor in there
that will still exist regardless of whether the A’s new ballpark is in San Jose or Oakland. Some of the reason the data trends that way is because the Giants have stolen fans from the Athletics’ base because of their shiny new ballpark.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
which means we have to expand the fanbase
The quickest way to do that is to introduce the team to new fans directly. As in, “Hey look, we built a shiny new stadium in your backyard. You should come out.”
A new stadium in Oakland would increase attendance somewhat, don’t get me wrong. But, you don’t want people to stop showing up once the novelty wears off. You want people who are going to reliably attend games, and Oakland/Easy Bay citizens haven’t demonstrated this, I’m sorry to say.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!
by cuppingmaster on Jul 15, 2010 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't agree with that at all (the second paragraph, I mean).
The Bay area is the Bay area, and San Jose fans are just as fair-weather as Oakland ones. Nobody went to see the Giants before they got their new ballpark, either.
I can already hear you saying, “But look at the Sharks!” The Sharks have been good at hockey for nearly their entire existence, plus they’re the only available hockey option in Northern California, nor do they need to draw nearly as many fans on nearly the same number of dates. It’s not an apples to apples comparison,
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Corp-or-a-tions.
season tickets.
box seats.
suites.
sponsorship.
That’s what SJ gets you over Oakland.
by LoneStranger on Jul 15, 2010 1:50 PM PDT up reply actions
Exactly
And the thing is, it’s a trivial thing making the difference. You want to take a client to a game? It takes you an hour to get to Oakland from SJ (on a good day). A stadium in SJ is right there. There’s more money there.
And yes, you’re right jeepers. Talking about the Sharks is dumb. They have a hockey monopoly in the Bay Area. They play 41 games a season in a 18,000 seat facility. There is no relationship between them and the A’s.
A better analogy is the Dodgers and Angels. The Angels’ fan base is distinctly an Orange County/IE crowd. The Dodgers’ fanbase is an LA crowd. It would be dumb for the Angels build a stadium in Pasadena. No one would say that. The A’s need to be farther away to draw a new crowd of people that aren’t already taken by the Giants. SJ undeniably accomplishes that.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!
by cuppingmaster on Jul 15, 2010 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Don't buy it in the slightest.
The Bay area is full of corporations, all over the place. More than enough potential for those sorts of revenues exist in either location.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Because the stadium sucks, and nobody wants to take clients there?
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Beane actually said that Lew was willing to spend money
to win but that he personally didn’t believe that money would necessarily equate to wins. Maybe he was covering for the “real” Lew but I don’t want to assume anything.
Spending time with my nephew and the AN Crew on July 10th...PRICELESS!
by ohtobe21likehuston on Jul 14, 2010 7:41 PM PDT up reply actions
That has many other factors
like the fact that the rest of league caught up to Beane’s tactics. The fact that in order to compete at the latter end of the Hoffman era, he traded prospects to put winning teams on the field for a run.
"I was right and you were wrong." - Ray Fosse
No more than the fact that a President visits his troops means he cares about veterans.
by JonathanNathan on Jul 14, 2010 7:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Interesting analogy.
I am a veteran. Veterans get a whole lot of perks as it is now. Many veterans want more perks than what they currently get even though what they currently get are still very generous. So, many veterans groups lobby for more perks and why not…it’s easy money.
Asking for more perks is too easy. Politically, it looks very bad having ads state that a candidate/incumbant is against veterans. In fact, in todays climate, one cannot even speak any criticism against veterans or troops without getting a verbal whacking. Since I am a veteran, I am more likey to get away with stating some criticism; that’s just the way it is.
I am not in favor of me or any other veteran getting more than what’s currently on the table. And I don’t think that it’s quite fair for us as veterans to use and exploit our veterans status [through emotional appeals] to get more stuff from the publicly funded treasury. A president can feel the same way and really care about veterans but think, “Man, enough is enough already!”
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 14, 2010 8:17 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Veterans get a whole lot of perks as it is now.
They did a lot better before the W. administration. They used to have functioning hospitals, for example. They used to get better financial benefits. In fact, Bush was the first President in modern history to substantively cut veterans’ funding, all while passing multiple tax cuts. You read that right: he cut veterans’ funding to help pay for tax cuts.
And just because he visited an aircraft carrier or two, that doesn’t mean he gave a damn.
You can say all you want that what you get right now is fine, but are you mentally ill because of your service? Are you homeless because of your service? Are you physically incapacitated because of your service? Some people don’t have your luxuries, and their services and benefits were slashed.
by JonathanNathan on Jul 15, 2010 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Rather than flag you, since you seem relatively new
I thought I would point out that you’re not supposed to invite political discussion on AN. It’s a good rule, so I would appreciate it if you would honor it.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Agreed. For me the line was crossed
when a specific president was named, with implications about that president’s political priorities. LCJ’s post was kind of borderline, but he was discussing the general phenomenon of government without making any partisan point.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
I don't think that mentioning the name of the president does it
its more that he compared the merit of it against tax cuts in the manner he did and then the aircraft part left no doubt. If this was what was said
They did a lot better before the W. administration. They used to have functioning hospitals, for example. They used to get better financial benefits. In fact, Bush was the first President in modern history to substantively cut veterans’ funding You can say all you want that what you get right now is fine, but are you mentally ill because of your service? Are you homeless because of your service? Are you physically incapacitated because of your service? Some people don’t have your luxuries, and their services and benefits were slashed.
I would have been more than fine with it. But I play fast and loose with the no politics part all the time
He's not missing bats and still giving up HRs like they're party favors at Chuck-E-Cheese - mikev
by designatedforassignment on Jul 15, 2010 5:55 PM PDT up reply actions
I question whether the amount spent on veterans was really cut.
I seem to recall that many veterans wanted to double dip from both retirement benefits and injury compensation. This means, if I am actually recalling correctly, that new spending wasn’t a go. I could be wrong.
And, as a beneficary of such benefits myself — lifetime healthcare should I really need it — I think that there are veterans benefits that should be trimmed back because they’re excessive. No one has the courage to say this, though. But, hey, if taxpayers want to keep the gravvy train rolling and I’m benefitting, how loudly am I really going to make a stink about it.
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 15, 2010 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Baseball expenditures are not determined by revenue.
There are a lot of owners, in all sports, who take in decent revenue, as well as luxury tax money from revenue-sharing, and still field a cheap, crappy team.
by JonathanNathan on Jul 14, 2010 7:10 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm not a finance expert
but I think this article paints a pretty good picture of how baseball teams are run.
http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2010/04/19/forbes-and-yankees/
It’s possible that owners are great at hiding money but I tend to believe the overall picture that team payrolls are tied very closely to revenue. Other than the Marlins most teams seem to follow the same business plan, if you don’t think that expenditures are determined by revenue your brain might not be fully functional.
“Revenues and payroll are directly proportional in baseball!”
“Well, that’s not exactly true, they’re not direc—”
“GO FUCK YOURSELF DOUCHEBAG YOU’RE RETARDED”
Is this how you actually interact with people, or do you just do this kind of thing when you’re safely anonymous behind a computer screen?
Revenue can create a ceiling, but it does not create a floor.
by JonathanNathan on Jul 14, 2010 8:02 PM PDT up reply actions
You really need to stop that. Like, now.
sock puppets have never successfully defended castles, except when working with squirrels, which would never happen because squirrels know better than to trust sock puppets, except when their nipples have magical powers. -nm
by Leopold Bloom on Jul 14, 2010 10:55 PM PDT up reply actions
OK, so he can tell me that my brain isn’t fully functional, but I can’t call him on it?
by JonathanNathan on Jul 15, 2010 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions
not like that.
sock puppets have never successfully defended castles, except when working with squirrels, which would never happen because squirrels know better than to trust sock puppets, except when their nipples have magical powers. -nm
by Leopold Bloom on Jul 15, 2010 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions
Well it’s a good thing multiple people called him out for doing it then.
by JonathanNathan on Jul 15, 2010 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions
I quite honestly didn't see it because he didn't scream
"GO F—- YOURSELF D——-BAG YOU’RE R———-D"
by LoneStranger on Jul 15, 2010 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions
In JN's defense...
…that’s the way he read it when it came through his personal filter.
JN: investing in a thicker filter might reap some peace of mind.
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 15, 2010 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions
There's some good stuff from that link
Thanks for posting it.
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 14, 2010 9:59 PM PDT up reply actions
OK, let's try that again.
Hey there. You just called me mentally retarded. No one in the community saw fit to so much as tell you that it was impolite. Please don’t say mean things like that. Although no one in the community is apparently interested in holding you to any kind of standard of behavior, they are clearly interested in holding me to one, so the long and short of it is, you have no incentive to be polite, and I have no leeway to react or respond to what you say to me.
by JonathanNathan on Jul 15, 2010 12:36 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, I see your point on this. The position you're in sucks.
I saw what he wrote but didn’t say anything even though I should have. I did like the link he posted. What he wrote to you was offensive. It wasn’t as bad as I’ve seen some things though — I know that shouldn’t excuse it.
Truth is, is that DiegoAsFan was sort of taking up the same side of the issue that I was and because of this I gave a pass. That’s not cool of me but it’s just the way that it is when arguing on the Internet. Sorry for not sharing my thoughts on this earlier.
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 15, 2010 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions
Let's try it ONE more time..
“Hey there. I joined this blog less than 2 months ago and I’m already copping an attitude, and then acting like a victim after I make one of the comments that has earned me 15 flags already. I wonder how long I’ll last here.”
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Much like the NFL, we will ALWAYS flag the one who responds.
Instead of responding with verbal attacks of your own (which will escalate the situation and cause us to hand out all kinds of CGV strikes), simply flag the post. The mods will see it and respond. We always do.
sock puppets have never successfully defended castles, except when working with squirrels, which would never happen because squirrels know better than to trust sock puppets, except when their nipples have magical powers. -nm
by Leopold Bloom on Jul 16, 2010 2:27 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah. I should do better at that.
It’s ingrained in me, from a very very very very young age, to hit back instead of reporting someone to the authorities.
Also, I didn’t perceive myself to be verbally attacking so much as creating an exaggerated interpretation of what the guy had done in the first place. I was kind of surprised it was interpreted as an attack. But live and learn.
by JonathanNathan on Jul 16, 2010 10:01 AM PDT up reply actions
The whole "don't report someone to the authorities"
is a terrible, terrible code whose repercussions have been felt everywhere from small playgrounds to big wars.
“Reporting” is not “snitching” — reporting is good. How can peace officers keep the peace if they don’t know where they’re needed?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I'm not saying it's good, I'm saying it's bad.
It’s just something I have to deal with. And it’s not like I wouldn’t call the cops if someone robbed my house or something. Just some shit ingrained from childhood about tattling, and the subconscious programming about rugged individualism from my Midwest adolescence.
by JonathanNathan on Jul 16, 2010 12:09 PM PDT up reply actions
I just bristle because I teach adolescents,
and most of them have this lame “don’t snitch” mentality ingrained in them. It’s very unhealthy.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Dude, I read you.
I subbed for adolescents all of last school year. And the funny thing is, most every job I’ve done since graduating high school, and even a little before I graduated high school, has been in an authority-figure role. I hate the attitude when it means I can’t do my job properly.
Just something that takes time to iron out of myself, I guess.
by JonathanNathan on Jul 16, 2010 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions
The problem is that one of those hypotheticals is a bad premise:
If Lew didn’t care how much money he lost, he’d be spending more than the Yankees, because he has more money than the amount that the Yankees spend.
The other issue is, if he doesn’t want to move to San Jose for money, then why does he want to do it? It’s quite a hassle.
Finally, and most importantly, the reason people equate the two things is that Lew has said, multiple times, that money is a huge factor in the decision to move.
by JonathanNathan on Jul 14, 2010 7:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Why does he want to move?
As explained throughout this thread, the current ownership has its own goals. They most certainly include winning, and they absolutely include making money. Ironically, those two actually coexist quite well.
Why does he want to move to San Jose? Apparently, his plan to accomplish HIS goals goes through San Jose. A shiny new stadium in a more affluent market that is near enough the old fanbase to retain the true loyalists while building on the new ones… hmmm, that sounds like a pretty good start.
In our shiny new stadium, we will attract more fans with more money, and more corporate money for our shiny new luxury boxes. The new stadium will be at least slightly better for hitters, so a non-graveyard stadium that is full of energetic fans will sound far more attractive to middle of the lineup hitters (both free agent and home grown), not to mention the extra MONEY.
The (re)energized fans, both new and old, will bring with them their money in a hundred different forms that will pay for these fine hitters who may actually want to wear white cleats in order to be part of something great rather than just to rebuild a career or play out their years of team control before making their money elsewhere.
Low and behold, the A’s will again have a formidable offense, will maintain a quality pitching staff, and will add to the excitement with the best marketing tool of all… winning. Ownership will make more money, spend more money, and produce a contender on a regular basis.
Whether you agree that a move to San Jose is necessary to accomplish these goals, Lew Wolff apparently feels like it is. It’s (somewhat) his team, and he has the vote that counts.
This is a competitive man who wants to win. We want a winner on the field, he wants a shiny new stadium filled with rabid fans that will help lead to a winning product. We want these things for the pure joy of watching a winner. He wants them so that in his boys club of 30, he can poke out his chest and be envied by his peers for what he has accomplished in taking a shitty situation and turning it into roses.
Why does he want to move? Because that’s part of his means to reach his end… an end that we would all be very happy with.
Of course money is a huge factor… in the current state of the game, it’s hard to win without a lot of it. Is there more of it in Oakland or San Jose?
by Dickhouse on Jul 15, 2010 12:16 AM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
OK, so it's money.
My question was, “If he doesn’t want to move to San Jose for money, then why does he want to do it?” Because the discussion had turned to the question of whether money was really the motivating factor. Clearly it is.
by JonathanNathan on Jul 15, 2010 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions
That's not clear to me.
If Lew wants:
(1) a shiny new stadium
(2) greater attendance
(3) to build that mega-condo-ballpark-shopping complex he’s been dreaming about
(4) to be pampered and loved by the city his team resides in
and he wants these things regardless of whether they prove profitable to him in terms of money,
then he very likely gets all of these things more easily in San Jose than he does in Oakland.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
But hold on.
1) A shiny new stadium can be built anywhere. If he literally just wants a shiny new stadium for its own sake, you can build one in a corn field and wait for ghosts to come play. You can also build one in Oakland. However, the reason he probably wants a new stadium is…money.
2) Greater attendance is clearly about money. I can’t imagine that Lew Wolff just likes to look at a lot of people all in one place. He could just move to India if that’s what he was into.
3) Again, this has to be a money thing. I can’t imagine that even the most dedicated real-estate developer genuinely enjoys, for its own sake, the development of real estate. He enjoys what most of us would. He enjoys what it represents: money.
4) As I’ve said before, if you want someone to love you, you don’t tell them they suck. And if you don’t feel that Lew ever told Oakland it sucked, here’s another thing you if you want someone to love you: when the person who came before you told that person that they suck over and over again, you do everything you can to make sure they know you don’t feel the same way about them, and that you don’t want them to feel that way about themselves either. Schott spent a decade trashing the city of Oakland. Lew—at best—was neutral on the subject of Oakland. To a certain degree, Lew appears, subconsciously, as a surrogate for Schott, because he’s in the same position. He needed to backpedal from the damage Schott did. He didn’t do so, and instead obliquely continued the same pattern of verbal abuse, just much much much more tactfully and subtly.
Also, I think #4 boils down to money, in the end, as well. If he wanted a city to love him, he’d give everyone $10,000.
by JonathanNathan on Jul 15, 2010 4:50 PM PDT up reply actions
I can't speak for Lew of course,
but the dude is 70 years old. He doesn’t need money anymore. Perhaps what he is looking for is more of a legacy? He’s a real estate developer, so naturally he values development. He also seems to like baseball, since he’s at so many games. What if he just wants wants to create a final ‘jewel’ and at the same time, build the team a better revenue stream? All of that is easier done in San Jose, and that also happens to be where some of his other accomplishments have been.
So yea, it’s about money, but I don’t think it’s really about his pockets.
by LoneStranger on Jul 15, 2010 8:11 PM PDT up reply actions
For the sake of not sounding stupid, I'll preface this comment by saying I'm from Illinois and don't follow the stadium issues
Can somebody give me a tl;dr of the whole situation? Is it San Jose or bust? Is the move inevitable, and the powers at be are just taking their sweet time? Many thanks to any help.
If you think Billy Beane is a bad GM, I hate you and find you stupid.
It's a big fat political mess, loaded with conspiracy theories that nobody can definitively prove or deny.
The A’s want a new ballpark, Lew Wolff claims Oakland is not an option because he already tried, though many believe he’s never been interested in Oakland in the first place. Since Fremont fell apart, San Jose has emerged as the leading option, but Oakland has done enough in the 11th hour to at least get MLB to intervene and make recommendations. San Jose’s territorial rights belong to the Giants, which has to be resolved for the move to happen. San Jose is now getting antsy about getting MLB’s blessing because they want to put the measure before the voters on the November ballot, but MLB is uninterested in accelerating their process and timelines to accommodate them.
In my opinion, it’s still likely they’ll end up in San Jose, but there are enough cracks around the edges that it could still fall apart. Oakland has a clear and present opportunity to try and expand those cracks, though it require a level of action on their part that they have never possessed in all of recorded history haven’t shown previously.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Good summary, thanks.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jul 15, 2010 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions

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