Statistically Significant: wOBA
I'd like to take this week to continue my stat primer series I started last month (on FIP, here). This week, Weighted On Base Average (wOBA). I'll try to make it as painless as possible, but feel free to skip the math section if you want.
Why wOBA?
Before I can get to the actual stat, I'm going to need to go over what led to its creation.
The "triple slash" method of notation is an extremely common one, and it's one you've undoubtedly seen. It summarizes a player's offensive contribution by listing batting average, on base percentage, and slugging percentage, in order, separated by slashes. (For example, Eric Chavez finished 2004 with a great .276/.397/.501 line.) These are three good statistics, and together in combination, it's easy to eyeball the strengths and weaknesses of a particular hitter.
In fact, on base percentage and slugging percentage complement each other quite well. OBP measures the value of walks and singles well, but a power hitter who hit a lot of extra base hits would be more valuable than his OBP would otherwise indicate. And slugging percentage provides a great measure of power, but a batter with no power but great plate discipline would be more valuable than his SLG would otherwise indicate. And as such, OPS was created by simply adding the two together. For the most part, it works remarkably well. OPS is a very good all-around statistic that provides the total value of a batter.
But OPS suffers from a few problems of its own. You can add OBP to SLG, but are both statistics really worth equal amounts of offensive value? A walk is counted in OBP, but a single is counted in both OBP and SLG. Is a single really worth twice as much? And, for that matter, is a home run really worth two times as much as a double? All of these questions dull the accuracy of OPS considerably. A .900 OPS hitter is clearly more valuable than an .800 OPS player, but can you really say the same for a .750 OPS player over a .740 OPS one? Last year, Nick Johnson batted .291/.426/.405, for an OPS of .831. In the same year, Carlos Lee batted .300/.343/.489, also for an OPS of .831. Both batting lines have an identical OPS, but they were achieved in very different ways. Johnson was an on base machine with little power. Lee was rarely on base but boasted tremendous slugging ability. Which season was actually more valuable?
The Math
Clearly, OPS was lacking enough that a new offensive statistic needed to be made. The problem with OBP and SLG is that events are assigned whole number values in the formulas that look and play nice but are otherwise meaningless. Thankfully, with run values, we can assign numeric values to events that actually reflect real data.
I explained run values in the previous column, but as a quick refresher, a run value indicates the average amount of runs that the average team scored from the occurrence of the event until the end of the inning. The run values for all of the most common offensive events are listed below, in the blue row.
For example, the first column indicates that on average, a walk was worth 0.32 runs, while a hit by pitch scored 0.35. The numbers come from all games played between 1999 and 2002, a sample a few hundred shy of 10,000 games.
These run values give us the exact value of each offensive event. The creators of wOBA noticed this, and realized that if we took the weighted average of a player's offensive contributions with the run values as the weights, you'd have an airtight, all-purpose offensive statistic.
Notice the last column, which says that the average out penalizes a team by 0.3 runs. In an attempt to get rid of negative numbers (if you strike out on every pitch, you'd have a batting average of 0.000, not a negative number), the creators of wOBA added 0.3 to each value, which gives the run value of every event relative to an out. Furthermore, they multiplied every value by 1.15, which has the convenient effect of putting a league average hitter's wOBA close to the league average OBP. These values are in the green row.
And it's these green row values that make up wOBA. The formula looks bad, I know, but it's a lot easier to use than calculate.
In Practice
The league average wOBA moves around from year to year, but it tends to sit somewhere around .325-.330. Other than that, wOBA pretty much works like a more complete, more accurate, all-around better version of OPS, in that it measures total offensive value, rather than one or two facets of offense, like power or contact ability.
The best way to get a feel for what constitutes a good wOBA is to look up players on Fangraphs and compare it with OPS, but I'll include a few benchmarks here. The league leader in wOBA tends to be somewhere a little north of .420, which usually sits where a 1.000 OPS mark does. Last year, Albert Pujols batted .327/.443/.658 for a .449 wOBA. On the flip side, last year's league worst wOBA belonged to the inimitable Yuniesky Betancourt, who batted .245/.274/.351 for a .271 wOBA.
As for the Nick Johnson (.291/.426/.405) vs. Carlos Lee (.300/.343/.489) question I posed earlier? Johnson's wOBA was .373, while Lee's was a far smaller .355. They had the same OPS, but the actual difference between the two seasons? A little over 10 runs, or about one whole win.
The A's are on a road trip for much of the next two weeks. They kick off a three-game set at Baltimore as Dallas Braden faces Jeremy Guthrie at 4:05 PM.
Odds and Ends
- For a crazy legendary high-water mark, Barry Bonds' best season came in 2002, the year after his 73 HR season. He batted .370/.582/.799 for an absolutely insane .546 wOBA.
- That Yuniesky Betancourt season I mentioned? Eric Chavez is currently performing at that level (2009 Betancourt: .271, 2010 Chavez: .270). Imagine having that performance for a full season, coupled with the worst SS defense in the majors.
- It turns out that most of the problems with OPS stem from the fact that OBP is around twice as valuable as SLG. You can actually make a fairly close approximation of wOBA by multiplying OBP by 2, adding it to SLG, and dividing by 3.
- I know it seems odd that a hit by pitch is worth a little bit more than a walk, but that's how the run values worked out. The best explanation I can think of is that pitchers who hit batters were more wild and gave up more runs after the event than pitchers who walked guys.
- By the way, about the odd acronyms in the formula: NIBB stands for "non-intentional base on balls", and RBOE stands for "reached base on error".
- All values come from The Book: Playing the Percentages in Baseball, by Tango, Lichtman, and Dolphin.
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wOBA certainly seems to fill the loopholes of OPS
Nice explanations. Thanks for dumbing it down for those of us that are a little slow with these stats.
It would have been nice if it were park-adjusted, or at least easily available in a park-adjusted form.
But baseball! Fuck yeah! -- lynnzgal
wRAA is park adjusted
At least on fangraphs it is.
Another note: fangraphs also includes SB and CS in their wOBA calculations. So at fangraphs it would be possible to have a negative wOBA.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
....what is wRAA
The funny thing about baseball is that people will believe what they want to believe. -Joe Posnanski 8/29/09
Weighted Runs Above Average
It’s wOBA converted to runs as someone mentioned below.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
difference between walks and HBP
Pitchers probably have a small tendency to walk more hitters when 1st base is open. Hit by pitches are just random events, so they happen equally often in harmless and harmful situations.
That's what it is
With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery
that's the best explanation of those here
though they all make some sense. Thanks
"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagine such events unfolding!" Bill King
by Buck Turgidson on May 25, 2010 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions
another cool thing about wOBA:
It’s very easily translated to runs. Simple formula:
[(wOBA – league average wOBA) / 1.15] X plate appearances = runs above average
as a rule of thumb, ~10 runs = 1 win
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Woah they need to watch the A's offence - we only need 4 runs to win! =P
He steps to the left, he steps to the riiiiiiight. That Amos Roberts, he'll make you look shite!
I know you're making a joke
But I do think this is something that a lot of us (me included) take as a given, but those not familiar will be confused.
So, who wants to give a thorough explanation of why ~10 runs = 1 win? (When, of course, you rarely have to score 10 runs to win a game)
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by thejd44 on May 25, 2010 11:03 AM PDT up reply actions
I think the simplest one
is that you don’t control when you score these 10 runs. Score two in a 7:1 win, they don’t matter, score another 3 in a 11:2 loss, they don’t matter. But the two in a 3:2 victory do.
So, the basic idea is if you spread 10 extra runs randomly over a season, on average they will tip one game in your favor.
Well the easiest way I think about it is
Think about baseball’s pythagorean theorem. It’s meant to predict winning percentage based on RS and RA. The formula is simply
RS^2 / (RS^2+RA^2)
As this number gets larger, to affect winning percentage enough to change a record by 1 win, you have to adjust RS and RA by 10 runs.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
By this number, I mean RS and RA not the ratio
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
Right
An average AL team might score and allow 780 runs in a season, for an 81-81 record. Changing that to 790-780 leads to 82-80, as does 785-775. So 10 runs is approximately equal to 1 win.
If you use a smaller number, like say 8 runs, you would get around 81.8 wins, or 0.8 wins for 8 runs.
by Amit on May 25, 2010 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Which also means that the runs:wins ratio is context-dependent
That is, 10 runs in 1968 meant a lot more than 1 win; 10 runs in, I dunno, 2001 probably meant less.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
It's more era dependent
Sure, it’s different in the dead ball era when teams scored 400 runs per season
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Era is the main determiner of context, I agree, but to some extent it's dependent on league and park, too.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
yeah but that's why it's averaged out.
and why it’s approximately 10 runs = 1 win.
It’s not 100% exact, but really it doesn’t need to be.
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Nicely presented
It would be fantastic if the scoreboard at the Coliseum would list hitters by wOBA instead of the tired, unholy, trinity of BA, HR, and RBI.
BEER IS GOOD. BEER IS GOOD. BEER IS GOOD, AND STUFF.
It'd be nice is CSN (that's what they're called right?) would at least show OBP
rather than BA, RBIs and HRs. They are meant to be the station of the A’s right, the team that made this stats stuff mainstream?
He steps to the left, he steps to the riiiiiiight. That Amos Roberts, he'll make you look shite!
KCIU solicited suggestions a few years ago
and started showing OBP.
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes
I'd like to see the triple slash line, then HR, RBI, wOBA
That way, everybody gets something.
The graphics box they superimpose is big enough to fit all that.
Quality Jones is my kind of hero.
by Gaijin_Suketto on May 25, 2010 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions
They should just replace a player's head with a floating screenshot of their current FanGraphs page
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by thejd44 on May 25, 2010 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions
Why do you think an HBP is worth more than a BB?
"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagine such events unfolding!" Bill King
HBP is more valuable because it measures 'grit'.
A player willing to ‘take one for the team’ is waaay more valuable than one that simply walks.
True story.
He steps to the left, he steps to the riiiiiiight. That Amos Roberts, he'll make you look shite!
You should totally write front page articles on stats.
True story.
The funny thing about baseball is that people will believe what they want to believe. -Joe Posnanski 8/29/09
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A B -3X = Swedish girls like chocolate @('.')@
A NON-TWSS COMMENT
Nice.
"Smokey, this be not the foul jungles of the darkest East Orient. This be ninepins. We are bound by laws."
Well I guess I had that coming
reading comprehension failure above
"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagine such events unfolding!" Bill King
by Buck Turgidson on May 25, 2010 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions
You can only drive in a run with a BB or HBP if the bases are loaded.
Not the case with a single.
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Singles advance more runners
A single often advances other baserunners two bases, and can advance runners who are not forced. The value of a walk and HBP are very close to each other.
Thanks danny!
Very clearly explained.
The funny thing about baseball is that people will believe what they want to believe. -Joe Posnanski 8/29/09
So the +.3 and the *1.15 are just there to make it more readable?
On the one hand that makes sense, on the other it just kinda adds pointless noise to a nice formula.
Yes and no.
The 0.3 takes away negatives, so you can just add up all the positive outcomes and not factor in outs made.
The 1.15 scales it to look like OBP, so yeah it’s a little bit pointless.
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Well taking away negatives
Is factoring in outs made, you’re just doing it in a more roundabout way such that it’s “easier to read.” Right?
My point being that if you don’t add +.3 to everything, you have the exact same distribution as if you do use it, just centered around a different median.
Easier to read and easier to calculate, because you're just adding.
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Not that anyone would ever calculate wOBA without a spread sheet, though
I guess when you multiply three digit numbers with likes of 0.72, 0.94, 1.24 and such, throwing in a negative would not really make it more complicated.
And subtracting is really just adding negative values
I mean, I get the point – try to make a number that people disinterested in stats can use. But I’m not sure it actually helps much, because you’ve got all these hand-wave additions to the formula to help its formatting.
True
But do you think anyone sits and calculates OBP or Slugging Percentage?
I don’t. To me, it’s less important to be able to calculate a stat on the fly, it’s more important that the actual formula is readily available. If I WANT to, I could plug it all into a spreadsheet and come up with it on myself, but I don’t need to.
Honestly, that’s why I’m not a big fan of VORP.
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lets see, one goes there, carry the two, decimal point
yup. Dan is a basement dwelling NERD!
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes
In this case I was just referring to your assumption
that it is easier to calculate it if you only have positive numbers, which I don’t think to be the case.
You should turn your knife into a knife/slide-rule
You’d be the baddest-ass stat geek in the world.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
And as for calculating OBP and SLG on the fly
I have to admit I was one of the freaks who would do so, not only after every game I played, but also during. It tended to get complicated towards the end of the year, but luckily the average season is only about 50 games long in Europe.
We put a little sand inside to make the experience more pleasant.
A B -3X = Swedish girls like chocolate @('.')@
Thanks, Colonel.
(I like sand)
Quality Jones is my kind of hero.
by Gaijin_Suketto on May 25, 2010 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions
yeah, why?
They count in OBP yeah?
The funny thing about baseball is that people will believe what they want to believe. -Joe Posnanski 8/29/09
The idea is that IBB are not really a skill
Some places will include it because in extreme cases like Barry Bonds, the IBB are obviously skillful. RBOE is a skill since it’s been shown to correlate from year to year.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
As I mentioned below
It’s not common sense. But speedy guys force errors as do players who simply crush the ball. Best explanation I got anyway.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
And, I believe, left-handed hitters are more likely to force errors than right-handed hitters
There was a great thread on The Book blog about it, and while I’m sure a study had been done previously, I want to take some credit for asking the guys about RBOE being a skill in that particular thread.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on May 25, 2010 11:06 AM PDT up reply actions
Also, hitting the ball leads to more errors than striking out
With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery
Well, it's clearly a skill in the sense of being repeatable
It’s a tricky problem. You can’t count them the same as “normal” walks because they are clearly less valuable on average (never a leadoff IBB, never a bases loaded IBB).
One solution is to take the average run expectancy gain of IBBs and use that, but that is going to overstate their value for two reasons. First is that the generic run expectancy gains are premised on everyone being an average hitter, but in IBB situations, the guy who gets walked is almost always better (at least in that situation) than the next hitter, so the run expectancy will not be accurate. Second, IBBs tend to occur late in the game when run expectancy and win expectancy diverge the most. IBBs will always increase run expectancy (at least generic run expectancy), but often do not increase win probability for the offensive team.
The Tango/MGL solution is to call IBBs equal to an average PA of the hitter, so that Bonds/Pujols get more credit for their IBBs, which makes sense because they are walked in a greater range of situations. I think this solution has some conceptual problems, but it’s probably more accurate than anything else.
With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery
wOBA and such
First of all, Dan, great job as usual.
For someone who is probably widely regarded as a stathead, I am rather reluctant to use many of the new, great and shiny stats, such as wOBA. It’s not that I don’t see how it simplifies comparisons between players, I do. I think it probably comes very close to accurately describing what happened and who was to blame or hail, too.
It is just that I am reluctant to use any stat where I need to memorize numerous constants to be able to calculate it. I think wOBA tells a more precise story than OPS, but I prefer triple slash to it, because I personally find it to be more informative. Sure it needs interpretation, but it also carries more information than wOBA.
All these stats are based on the result, not the process, anyway. Why should I value BB different than HBP, for example? Just because empiric data shows that on average there were more runs scored after BB than after HBP, why should we put different value to the event of exactly same outcome? The result is the same. There is only one event value for a HR*, regardless whether it was a 450 ft blast or a jet stream pop-up that just cleared the fence.
* Btw. I noticed you use somewhat different event values in your FIP article and this one here. Not sure which ones are the correct ones
My other beef with wOBA when used as tell-all offensive stat is that it ignores stolen bases and caught stealing. An out made on the base path costs as much as the one made in the batter’s box, as far as outs are concerned and even more as decreasing team run scoring ability in that inning. wOBA might have been intended as tell-all hitting stat, but it is being often referred to as a tell-all offensive stat. I guess that’s not against the stat itself, but the way some people use it.
I guess my ideal stat would have three parts.
1. Ability to not make outs. Any outs. All the PA outs count, sacrifice or not. Caught stealing counts. All the baserunning outs, save for the force outs count. Force outs count on the batter. GiDP counts as two on the batter (well, that one is negotiable). At the end of the day you have your PA and your outs. Simple story.
2. Ability to advance the bases yourself For that matter a single and a stolen base are just as valuable as the double. I would also credit the runner for every base above minimum (minimum would be advancing 1 base on a single and two on a double). Every tagging up and advancing on a fly ball, too. At the end of the day you have bases per plate appearances.
3. Ability to advance the others Again very simple. Where are the runners before your PA? Where are they after? So a BB with a runner on 3rd gives you nothing. Count all the bases your teammates advanced and add those up. To avoid getting into the same mess RBI is, count advanced bases against runners and not against PA, so that there is no bias towards guys who always bat with bases empty/loaded.
There’s your new triple slash.
Probably extremely flawed brain-storming, but once I wrote this much I will not delete it now. :)
I have a bit of a problem with your first point
The idea of these stats is to tell us how good a player actually is. Penalizing for a sacrifice bunt (regardless of if the manager made the player do it or if the player did it on his own) is introducing a negative bias to the representation of the player’s skill.
In other words, an out is a measure of badness. When a player is making an out on purpose, is he really being bad (the bunt may be a dumb strategic move, but that’s not the issue here)?
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on May 25, 2010 11:09 AM PDT up reply actions
disagree slightly
wOBA does not actually tell us how good a player is. It’s a value stat: how much value did the player create? In many cases this might be an approximation for how good the player is, but it often won’t be.
Just as a player doesn’t control whether he bunts or not, he also doesn’t control when he rides the pine despite being healthy, and a million other things that impact his wOBA and the value he creates.
Again, wOBA, just like any other stat, attempts to put a value on performance. And it does so more accurately than OPS.
http://www.ballyourbase.com
by thelincolndude on May 25, 2010 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions
Nitpicking...
With #2, while the net effect of a single plus a steal, just like a double, is a runner on second, the psychological effect on the pitcher may not be the same. Similarly, a 12-pitch walk and a 4-pitch walk and a HBP are probably not all the same.
As for #3, there’s still an inherent bias. A number three hitter will more likely bat with a fast runner on base who can go from first to third on a single, while a number nine might generally have a slower runner who can’t. So you might want to divide the number of bases advanced by the “raw speed” of the runners.
"the psychological effect"
I would leave that one out, as we are in no position to judge it. Some pitchers will be more rattled by a double, some more by allowing a stolen base. Some will be rattled by a long foul ball, some by their defense’s poor play. Some by having slept with Alyssa Milano.
#2
Why isn’t a double more valuable, for instance, with the bases loaded? In many cases, a slightly-better-than average runner will be able to score from 1st base. If that batter who just hit a 2B instead goes single + SB, he has caused fewer runs to score, right?
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by cuppingmaster on May 25, 2010 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions
Why do players get positive credit for RBOE?
That seems incredibly stupid. I know errors themselves are a stupid stat, but this seems to compound the problem rather than correcting for it. It’s like, I dunno, giving the C credit for a pitcher’s Win.
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my best guess
RBOE at least means you put the ball in play, possibly advanced runners, etc.
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Players who put the ball in play a ton
Probably have more E/PA than a TTO guy. Good point.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
That makes sense.
The funny thing about baseball is that people will believe what they want to believe. -Joe Posnanski 8/29/09
Errors are correlated year to year
Speedy guys like Ichiro force errors. Guys who simply crush the ball force errors. The numbers are so small anyway that they don’t really add much in the long run. But yeah, it’s not elegant. Perhaps someone could create a wOBA stat based on batted ball types (a note: this stat would be to batters what tRA is for pitchers).
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
maybe a combination of forcing errors
and exposing a misplay. Example: Groundball to short hits off chest of SS he picks it up and throws in time to get Jake Fox, but not Cliff Pennington.
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes
errors are a bunk stat
In batting average, a batter gets penalized when the fielder makes a great play, but gets no credit when the fielder makes a terrible play (error). It’s better to just count actual outs made and not differentiate according to the whims of the official scorer.
http://www.ballyourbase.com
by thelincolndude on May 25, 2010 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions
I like this.
For instance, I don’t think anyone has noticed any differences in Barton’s swing, plate discipline, etc., even while his BA has dropped substantially over the last few weeks. Line drives getting snagged, and deep fly balls that require a healthy sprint to run down – that is, lots of good defensive plays. I guess the only complaint is that if he took some of these pitches another 25-30 feet, he’d start banging more 2Bs and HRs.
A Ballade [for the Angels Fan], by Eustache Deschamps: "We are cowardly, ill-formed and weak / Aged, envious and evil-spoken. / I see only fools and sots / Truly the end is nigh / All goes ill."
Great post. Very easy to comprehend.
"Every year someone will win the World Series. Other things are more, shall we say, unusual." - EN
What I don't understand:
How is an out worth negative runs? In Dallas Braden’s perfect game, the Rays came up with 27 outs and nothing else, yet they still scored zero runs, not -8.1 runs. Is it just worth -.3 runs compared to the average of all end results from all plate appearances?
"To tell the truth, I'm not excited to go to Cleveland, but we have to. If I ever saw myself saying I'm excited going to Cleveland, I'd punch myself in the face, because I'm lying" - Ichiro
by Philip Christy on May 25, 2010 12:22 PM PDT reply actions
Non-techical explanation (all that I can manage).
The run values are based not on actual runs, but run expectancy. Each inning begins with a certain expectation of runs (really! even for the A’s!), which increases or decreases based on the performance of each batter. Only at the end of an inning is the run expectancy reduced to zero.
A Ballade [for the Angels Fan], by Eustache Deschamps: "We are cowardly, ill-formed and weak / Aged, envious and evil-spoken. / I see only fools and sots / Truly the end is nigh / All goes ill."
crossposted with you there...
I see we both managed to get a little rip at the A’s offense in.
http://www.ballyourbase.com
by thelincolndude on May 25, 2010 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions
it's against average performance
On average, a team scores something like 5 runs per 27 outs (yeah, this is normal teams we’re talking about, not the A’s). So if you make an out, you’re decreasing the number of runs your team can expect to score. Braden reduced the Rays’ expected runs to the end of the game from about 5 down to 0. I believe that the reason it doesn’t add up to -8 (ie. -.3 * 27) is because the -.3 is an average across ALL situations, and since Braden didn’t allow any baserunners, the 27 outs he generated were not representative of the average.
If you take the starting weights (first line of the table), an average player is going to come out at 0 when you add up all his hits, home runs, etc., and subtract .3 for every out he makes.
In the wOBA calculation, we add .3 to everything to make 0 the baseline rather than the average, and then scale up by 15%, and that’s how we get a stat that averages .330 or so, just like OBP.
http://www.ballyourbase.com
by thelincolndude on May 25, 2010 12:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Thanks for explaining.
However:
In the wOBA calculation, we add .3 to everything to make 0 the baseline rather than the average, and then scale up by 15%, and that’s how we get a stat that averages .330 or so, just like OBP.
Why not make 0 the baseline to begin with, then? And doesn’t .3 to every number skew the percentages, if only a little bit?
"To tell the truth, I'm not excited to go to Cleveland, but we have to. If I ever saw myself saying I'm excited going to Cleveland, I'd punch myself in the face, because I'm lying" - Ichiro
by Philip Christy on May 25, 2010 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions
Because an out is worth (-0.3)
So to take away outs, you have to add 0.3 to each in order for the baseline to be 0, and not (-0.3)
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OK, the question I'm trying to ask is:
Why not make a statistic based against nothing, instead of against average? That way you don’t have to add anything to the statistic. An out would be worth 0, which makes sense logically, a walk would be worth .6 or whatever, and so on. I mean, it looks like that’s about what the end result is anyway, but the way to get there was a bit convoluted.
Am I making any sense here?
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by Philip Christy on May 25, 2010 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions
You want outs to be negative
A player who goes 1 for 20 has produced less than a player who goes 1 for 1. You want to penalize a player for all of those outs.
As far as I know, it's derived from the runs expectancy matrix.
making an out reduces the likeliness of scoring a run in a given inning, which is why an out doesn’t count for zero.
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The unit is runs
and it basically is based against nothing. Outs reduce runs, they don’t just not increase runs, so that’s why they are negative.
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Well that's not true
Outs definitely do not reduce runs. The reduce average runs scored, and they reduce run expectancy.
i'm not entirely sure here
I think you might be able to do it this way, but I also think you’d get the same answer and that it you would be implicitly doing exactly the same thing.
The guys who wrote The Book based all of their calculations on an empirical observation of the average number of runs that teams score. So that’s where they’re starting from, no matter how they decide to assign and adjust the weights.
And when you think about it this way — that a team can expect to score some number of runs before the game even starts — then an out is always going to lower that expectation to some degree.
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by thelincolndude on May 25, 2010 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions
I think I got it all now.
Thanks to all for chiming in!
"To tell the truth, I'm not excited to go to Cleveland, but we have to. If I ever saw myself saying I'm excited going to Cleveland, I'd punch myself in the face, because I'm lying" - Ichiro
by Philip Christy on May 25, 2010 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Good readin', merq
I’ve had to refresh my memory of what wOBA is about 40 times over the last few years (so many metrics to remember). Yours was a nice, concise explanation.
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Excellent, which stat is next in the series?
Nice to get a better explanation of this.
wOBA is one of the few stats I really didn’t bother to understand, but now I see why I should!
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great writeup
the thing about hpb > bb bugged me, too. I had a different hypothesis as to why.
There are more IBB’s – and not just the ones where the catcher stands up – than there are intentional beanings.
IBB’s typically happen when the next batter is worse than the current batter, and/or the filling up of 1B increases the chances of a double play.
You would expect a small difference from these things, and that’s exactly what you get.
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by eastcoasta'sfan on May 25, 2010 1:44 PM PDT reply actions
ok, so are you going to kiss wOBA and stop it from shakin?
just askin’
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by eastcoasta'sfan on May 25, 2010 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions
Ugh.
I’d have just defined the metric to be the average of the run values. Simple and intuitive (giving you the expected number of runs the player contributes per plate appearance). The same can’t be said for the metric the way it’s defined. I don’t believe in tweaking measures just to avoid negative values and I don’t believe in tweaking measures to match other measures, and judging by the explanation provided above, the creator of wOBA is guilty of both.

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