Managing Pitchers 101: Some Guidelines To Consider
Ask any fan about how well his/her team's manager handles the pitching staff and it's like taking a trip to Lake Nogebow: "Welcome to Lake Nogebow, where all the managers are below-average!" In this post, I aim to provide, from my point of view, somewhat of a "Managing Pitchers For Dummies" guidebook to help fans know when it really is appropriate to scream "FIRE GEREN NOW!!!"...and when it actually isn't.
The first thing you have to consider is that a manager cannot always put in his best relievers. Sure, when you're ahead in the 8th you'd like to see your two best relievers, when you're only down a run in the 7th you'd also prefer to see your two best relievers, and when the game is slipping away in the 4th you'd like to see the starter yanked -- but not replaced by someone even worse, like your 5th or 6th best reliever.
However, if a manager were to manage like a fan, always yanking struggling pitchers and always to going to his "best available reliever," he would quickly burn out the arms of his best relief pitchers. So when Geren goes to a "meh" reliever, it doesn't suggest he is "punting" the game, nor does it suggest he overvalues that reliever's ability. It simply reflects that he is rolling the dice with a worse reliever because there have been, or will be, games that offer better uses for his better guys.
The second thing to remember is that a manager usually does not have more than a couple relievers that he and you will both feel good about seeing out there. To begin with, relievers are not usually as good as starters are, plus the dropoff from "your best or next-best reliever" to "your 3rd/4th best reliever" is steep. When Geren puts Craig Breslow or Edwar Ramirez or Chad Gaudin into a game that is not yet decided, it's not a sign that Geren thinks more highly of those pitchers than you do. It's a sign that he understands you can't always go to Bailey and Ziegler and that like every other team, the A's bullpen, beyond a couple guys, is filled with pitchers who range from "inconsistent" to "Oh not him!"
So where does this leave us in terms of how good managers handle their pitching staffs?
Guideline #1: It is usually the right move to try to get at least 6 innings or 90-100 pitches out of your starter -- even if he is struggling.
Your starters are among your best pitchers and if you start yanking them after 5.1 IP because they are looking vulnerable, or after 80 pitches because the matchups favor your lefty reliever, you will just wind up using really bad pitchers more (because those additional innings ultimately have to go to your "low-leverage relievers," since your best relievers can't pitch all the time and they will already pitch as much as you can reasonably get them in).
So if a manager panics and pulls Braden, after 85 pitches, during a 6th inning jam, then gives the early hook to a struggling Cahill after 3.2 IP because "we're only down 4-3 and we could still win this game," those innings are going to go -- either immediately or eventually -- to the Edwar Ramirez', Brad Kilbys, and Chad Gaudins of the bullpen.
The vast majority of the time, if the starter hasn't reached his pitch limit, the right move is to try to get him through 6IP, or as close as possible, even if it appears that doing so is giving the team a worse chance to win that day. Exceptions include times when the starter is just getting lit up and you feel it's truly "one of those days" (today with Sheets was a perfect illustration) -- partly because in these cases, chances are that by staying in the starter won't eat up many more innings anyway -- and times when your starter has looked wobbly the whole time (not just in the current inning) yet your offense has given you a really good chance to win; maybe it's the 4th inning, your starter has struggled throughout, yet you lead 6-4 and can actually use your best relievers soon if you can just stop the bleeding now. Those instances, it should be noted, are few and far between.
Guideline #2: A guy who is in and pitching really well is a better bet than a new pitcher of similar ability.
I think a common mistake managers make is to pull pitchers who are clearly throwing well that day in favor of a new reliever. Relievers tend to be inconsistent, so if you have Ziegler in and he is "on his game" and you pull him for Blevins, you may find out that Blevins is not sharp today and it's too late to go back to Ziegler. The same goes for Blevins sailing through an inning with Ziegler warming up -- you don't know which Ziggy will show up today but you know which Blevins you have.
So while platoon advantages have to be considered -- especially with pitchers like Ziegler -- remember that a reliever who hasn't pitched yet is an unknown quantity and that when a pitcher is already in the game looking especially good, you might not want to go for "what's behind door #2."
That's why ideally I like having middle relievers who can go up to 2 IP. If they're sharp, you can use them for 2 IP, instead of hoping that two different relievers are on for 1 inning each, and if they're not you can punt early and have them available again soon when they might be sharper.
Guideline #3: It's more likely you'll get a good outing from one guy than from three guys; the more different pitchers you try the better chance one guy undoes all the work everyone else did.
Put Tyson Ross, or Chad Gaudin, in for 2-3 innings and if he's on his game he'll succeed, and if he isn't he'll probably get torched. Put in three different relievers and even if two of them are on their game, if one isn't he can give it all back and then some all by himself.
I'm wary of bullpens that are set up like, "If we're up by 1-2 runs, X has the 7th, Y has the 8th, and Z has the 9th," because this means you're counting on your 3rd best reliever and your 2nd best reliever, along with your closer, all to hold a lead in a tight game. In reality, randomly one of your best three guys probably isn't available that day so you're actually counting on, say, #1, 2, and 4 on the depth chart, or #1, 3, and 4 on the depth chart -- and remember, your 3rd or 4th best relievers are generally guys who are at best flawed and at worst highly inconsistent. Keep trying different pitchers and eventually you'll find one who is bad enough to blow the game all by himself.
How to avoid this phenomenon from happening? Well, abide by Guideline #1 -- work hard to get your starters deep into games -- and abide by Guideline #2 -- don't be too quick to pull guys who are throwing well -- and you'll find yourself less reliant on a variety of short relievers all to pitch well on the same day when the margin for error is small.
Guideline #4: Going with mediocre to lousy relievers is not "punting," it's just strategically "rolling the dice" with lower odds.
As per the intro discussion, over the course of a long season managers have to use their entire bullpen, including letting some highly flawed pitchers throw in higher leverage situations than anyone ideally wants. The more teams get out of their starters, the less they have to rely on their 5th, 6th, and 7th best relievers, but even under the best of circumstances a manager will be faced, time and time again, with a situation where the game is still potentially winnable, yet it still calls for the manager to roll the dice with a so-so pitcher.
One example so far this season was when Gio Gonzalez walked 5 in 4.1IP, and got over 90 pitches, in a game the A's trailed 3-0. Gio was not long for the game, nor was he pitching well, and it would have been irresponsible for Geren to go to one of his "better" relievers in the 5th inning of a game the A's trailed. This meant turning things over, with runners on base, to the likes of Craig Breslow or Edwar Ramirez -- hardly inspiring, but necessary given the circumstances.
This didn't mean Geren was conceding the game; it meant he was conceding that if the A's were going to win, his worst pitchers were going to have to step up and his offense would also have to step up. Each was unlikely to happen, so for both to happen was even more unlikely -- yet going to a "meh" pitcher was the right and necessary move. Managers don't always make the right moves expecting success; hoping for success, sure, but you can be certain that Bob Geren knows putting Breslow into the game to face Alex Rodriguez is not "putting his best foot forward."
Now all of these "rules of thumb" have to be balanced with eyeballing when a pitcher is gassed and when he has enough left to work through a bad inning, as well as with the very real consideration of left/right splits. This is what makes baseball so complex and fascinating, because the exception proves the rule -- that is, sometimes the right move might be to violate one of these "guidelines" based on the unique situation and on the combination of available and unavailable arms.
Truth be told, I think Bob Geren has done a pretty good job this year overall because he has generally abided by these basic tenets of what I consider to be smart bullpen management. The fact is, Geren hasn't often had a lot of good options to go to. That is to say, any manager will look like he is managing better if Jerry Blevins is his 5th best reliever than if Blevins is his 3rd best reliever. Geren has often been forced to go to poor or highly inconsistent pitchers in games that are not yet decided, so of course his moves have often turned out badly at inopportune times.
Add Michael Wuertz and suddenly Geren will start managing "smarter" -- though in fact what he'll be doing, thanks to the "depth chart domino effect," is just rolling the dice with Ziegler instead of Breslow and with Breslow instead of Gaudin.
Anyway, the main purpose of this particular post is not so much to dissect what Geren has done right or wrong so far this season, but rather to inspire discussion about how best to manage a pitching staff, and hopefully to provide readers with some key guidelines that I have found to be reliable -- most of the time.
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Great, awesome stuff, Nico.
And I agree wholeheartedly. Fans are generally much too quick in calling for the hook, while forgetting about a lot of the tenets you’ve pointed out. Sure, it’d be awesome to be able to manage every game like it’s game 7 of the World Series, but for almost every case, the most ideal bullpen management is neither realistic nor possible.
The selfish, they're all standing in line, faithing and hoping to buy themselves time.
Me, I figure as each breath goes by, I only own my mind.
Pitching management: Whitey Herzog
Look at Game Five, 1977 ALCS, with Whitey Herzog managing the KC Royals (Baseball Reference has the play x play).
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/KCA/KCA197710090.shtml
Game Five, of course, is for all the marbles, so it is interesting to see the moves and eventual outcome. Note that pitching management limited the moves of Game 5 by using certain pitchers in Game 4.
"I'm not going to comment on the cacophonous generation of ancillary noise". Ken Korach on the Tampa Bay indoor dome.
by One won lost won on May 2, 2010 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions
not the most heart breaking loss for the royals against the yankees in the mid 70s
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury
That game featured rather prominently in the "Bronx is Burning" miniseries
which was not amazing, but definitely worth watching for baseball fans. John Turturro is a great acting talent.
Arthur Dent: You know, it's at times like this, when I'm trapped in a Vogon airlock with a man from Betelgeuse and about to die of asphyxiation in deep space, that I really wish I'd listened to what my mother told me when I was young.
Ford Prefect: Why, what did she tell you?
Arthur Dent: I don't know, I didn't listen!
I loved that series.
The Son of Sam killings running parallel with the baseball plot was intriguing. Made for a very interesting program and brought back a lot of memories. The seventies were interesting times.
"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer
Off topic-
What’s the status with the A’s move to San Jose or Fremont? Is that still in the talks? Would they still be called Oakland?
Just asking because I don’t get A’s news down here in SoCal.
The Maniac’s here.
Thanks. You guys are awesome.
The Maniac’s here.
by Brownie's Year on May 2, 2010 3:58 PM PDT up reply actions
recent fanpost on this...do a search on new ballpark
"Are those new tarps? Or did they paint 'em?" Mark Ellis
thanks....I could not remember and/or find!
"Are those new tarps? Or did they paint 'em?" Mark Ellis
San Jose and Oakland are battling it out, with Fremont trying to get in on the side
best bet looks like San Jose, and no, they would not keep the Oakland name, they’d be the San Jose A’s if they move to either Fremont or San Jose.
Go to http://newballpark.org/ for a lot of info
The name hasn't been decided yet, as far as I've ever heard.
But the city they are in would be in the name, and it could possibly be something like “The [location] A’s of [other location]”
The "Fremont A's" would be really weird
Mainly because I think the majority of the United States has never, ever heard of Fremont. San Jose, on the other hand, I think would work.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on May 2, 2010 5:53 PM PDT up reply actions
Green Bay is the largest city in it's area.
Pitching and defense wins pennants, but offense sells tickets.
It also goes back to a time...
…when football teams were predominantly in mid-sized cities like Green Bay, Canton, etc. Green Bay is an anomaly, though they also were able to get away with it by playing roughly half their home games in Milwaukee for several decades. They stopped doing that only as recently as the 1990s.
Pitching and defense wins pennants, but offense sells tickets.
They were able to "get away with it" because the city owns the team
There’s no possibility that the Packers would still be in Green Bay if they were owned privately.
Apparently “socialized sports” IS a good idea!
Arthur Dent: You know, it's at times like this, when I'm trapped in a Vogon airlock with a man from Betelgeuse and about to die of asphyxiation in deep space, that I really wish I'd listened to what my mother told me when I was young.
Ford Prefect: Why, what did she tell you?
Arthur Dent: I don't know, I didn't listen!
Technically...
…they are a non-profit, community-owned franchise that sells stock from time to time.
Pitching and defense wins pennants, but offense sells tickets.
And the NFL has made in abundantly clear....
that they will not allow another similar situation to arise. There’s a reason for that.
"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer
Orangevale A's?
Not that I’m biased or anything.
"-i never said half the things i said." --Yogi Berra
I'm not too hot on "Bay Area A's" either, but that sounds more likely than Silicon Valley.
The selfish, they're all standing in line, faithing and hoping to buy themselves time.
Me, I figure as each breath goes by, I only own my mind.
Since the Angels have abandoned it...
…California A’s.
Ooh, I know, I know… Golden State A’s.
Pitching and defense wins pennants, but offense sells tickets.
I bet some people think Golden State is a city.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on May 3, 2010 7:11 AM PDT up reply actions
When I went to college in Pittsburgh
Nobody knew where the Golden State Warriors played. Literally nobody. I’m assuming that’s true of any city without an NBA team, and most cities that do have an NBA team.
by Billy Frijoles on May 3, 2010 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions
I am here in the valley and I know some hot cheerleaders.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on May 3, 2010 5:50 PM PDT up reply actions
I like the way you think Cowboy.
Perhaps they could be living billboards advertising a particular “specialists” skill set?
"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer
I think what I would like to see more of this season is...
Using our best reliever in high stress situations. Sometimes preserving the lead with the bases loaded and protecting against a grandslam(when a premier hitter is at the plate) is a better use of Bailey than saving him for later. It isn’t the conventional way but I think that could help the A’s to get W’s.
But I do agree that it’s important not to pull the starter too early.
One thing about Bailey is that the A's are having fewer save opportunities than comparable teams.
We have 4 saves, tied with Cleveland (who has 3 less wins), and only 1 behind Tampa Bay’s 5 (we know why they have only 5, right?). One of those was Ross’s 3-inning save, so we really only have 3 high-leverage saves. We’re the only team with less than 2 Blown Saves – we have zero! So our total save situations is currently the league outlier.
Presumably, the save opportunities will increase, proportionally to our win totals. In the meantime, Geren has used Bailey as much as he dares to keep him sharp – 9 appearances, compared to Kilby’s 5 and Ramirez’s 6. What this indicates, to me, is that Geren is indeed trying to keep these worse relievers out of the game where possible, but does want to keep Bailey for high leverage situations as much as possible. This seems right to me.
Regarding Breslow – it is too bad he hasn’t pitched better, but as Nico notes, he is pitching in higher leverage situations than he is equipped for. Even one more good reliever would ease up that leverage – especially since Ziggy is so severe on the platoon splits. If there is a rule that Geren seems to ignore, it is probably #2. I remember thinking this a few times this season, but don’t remember the specific circumstances, or whether it indeed cost us.
A Ballade [for the Angels Fan], by Eustache Deschamps: "We are cowardly, ill-formed and weak / Aged, envious and evil-spoken. / I see only fools and sots / Truly the end is nigh / All goes ill."
Well, you'd expect a good pitching no offense team like Oakland to generate a lot of save oppotunities.
Like that time K-Rod broke the single season record with LAA. It’s a little weird how few opportunities there have been.
The selfish, they're all standing in line, faithing and hoping to buy themselves time.
Me, I figure as each breath goes by, I only own my mind.
Here's a tally of our wins:
We’ve won 5 games by 4, 5, or 6 runs (includes 1 save by Ross).
We’ve had 3 walkoffs.
We’ve had 2 blowouts.
We have 3 saves by Bailey (2 R lead, 2 R lead, and 1 R lead).
The big surprise is 7/13 games won by more than 4 runs! For all the complaints about the hitting, we have been surprisingly productive! And all of our losses have come when we get less than 3 runs, with one exception.
We’ve only had one win with less than 4 runs, which is a bit of a surprise, given how we expected to win a lot of 2-1 and 3-2 games, at least at the start of the season.
A Ballade [for the Angels Fan], by Eustache Deschamps: "We are cowardly, ill-formed and weak / Aged, envious and evil-spoken. / I see only fools and sots / Truly the end is nigh / All goes ill."
I was @ the Baltimore/Boston hr fest on sat.
and I had to explain guideline #1 to a whole group of redsox fans who were screaming about francona’s decision to leave in dice-k when he was clearly faltering.
needless to say, they didn’t get it.
Why'd you interfere?
They might’ve started fighting and possibly the world would have less RedSox fans today
"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin
Good job with this post
Put me in a good mood – or perhaps $9 1/2. Oysters and $3 draft beer onthe Lake Merritt dock (Lake Chalet) is responsible.
by OaklandSi on May 2, 2010 3:57 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
Good Stuff
I’d add the following:
1) Relievers should not begin warming up unless there’s a fairly decent chance that they’ll be used. This might apply to a long man in the early to mid innings, or set-up men in the late innings. Obviously in certain platoon situations when you need to have two relievers warming up, one of them might not be used. But one sure way to overtax your bullpen— to adverse consequences down the road— is “over warming” them. One thing I’ve noticed through the years is the “5th batter rule”. Often a manager will get a certain reliever up to specifically retire the 5th batter in the inning— on the presumption that if a) that batter never comes to the plate, the original pitcher has worked out of the jam and b) if he does, at best it’s a two on and two out situation where the starter may be tiring or the reliever in the pen is a better matchup vs. that hitter than the one on the mound.
2) And the other is the age-old debate about the DH— which group of managers has the easier task: the AL managers whose decisions have nothing to do with their own batting order, or the NL managers whose choices are often dictated by their batting orders. While acknowledging that there can be a certain elegance to the double-switch, I tend to believe that the AL job— as it applies simply to the identity of the pitcher— is the tougher one.
And finally, when your starting pitcher is at 100 pitches after 8 innings of a 1-0 game, and in the lead, don’t (Don Wakamatsu: this means you) pull him.
how about a 4-1 game when your ace has gotten one out and walked the next guy?
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury
1) You mean like Jerry Manuel having K-Rod throw 100+ pitches IN THE BULLPEN
Before finally using him in the 19th inning to throw 24 more pitches?
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on May 2, 2010 5:47 PM PDT up reply actions
In fairness, maybe Jerry Manuel hates K-Rod just as much as everyone else does.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Bullpen Wariness
“I’m wary of bullpens that are set up like, “If we’re up by 1-2 runs, X has the 7th, Y has the 8th, and Z has the 9th,”
Isn’t that exactly how Larussa had the bullpen set up, though, with Gene Nelson to Rick Honeycutt to Eck? Nelson could also go two innings, and he was generally regarded as having the best stuff of the three. He was also usually a lead leader in stifling inherited runners.
If we had somebody dominant back like Wuertz or Devine back wouldn’t that be an efficient way to run the bullpen?
I'd sooner go with platoon splits and let someone pitch more than 1 IP,
such as Ziggy pitching 1.1 IP against a group of mostly righties, or going with Blevins instead of Ziggy if “Ziggy’s inning” features L/R/L/L.
But yes, if you happen to have 3 really good relievers who get LH and RH out really well, then it makes more sense. This rarely happens, though … And remember if one of those guys is not available you’re looking at someone else anyway for one of those innings: specifically your 4th best reliever. A more likely group is…Jespen, Shields, Fuentes. If I had those 3, and I went with Jepsen or Shields and they were lights out in the 7th, I’d keep them in.
Letting Nelson go 2 IP when he was sharp was smart, for the reasons outlined in my post.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
To be fair to Larussa/Duncan
That’s pretty much how they did it. Since Nelson could go two innings he’d come in with runners on and go until they had a lefty matchup when they wanted Honeycut. Eck was famously the guy who started the 9th, but early on with Larussa they’d often have him come out to get a right hander or two in the 8th. Eck was always vulnerable to left handed power hitters.
Anyway, I could see Ziggy being that two inning guy who comes on with men on (since he can induce the DP). Wuertz and his world class slider against lefties and then Bailey.
I’m not feeling like we’re going to get anything useful from Devine this season, but maybe HRod can bolster the pen.
Exactly. Even with 3 rather kick-ass relievers, which is unusual to have,
LaRussa smartly looked at “9 outs” more than “7th/8th/9th” — plus he didn’t compulsively go to Nelson or Honeycutt to start the 7th if Stewart, Welch, or Moore was dealing.
Of course when you happen to have Stewart, Welch, Moore, Nelson, Honeycutt, and Eck, the move you make will probably be a great one!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
He did, however, compulsively go to Nelson to start the 7th when Storm Davis was dealing
but in those cases, Nelson was probably relieving Caderet or Plunk. Storm was gassed after 5 IP.
LaRussa adapted his way of managing the A’s’ bullpen to the talent he had there. A lot of people since then have tried to manage bullpens the same way, but with a lot less talent. Not a good idea.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
This isn't aimed at you DavidS
but can we all agree to not call Henry Rodriguez that horrible horrible nickname.
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury
If we have to have a stupid abbreviated nickname for him, I vote for
“Hen-R”
"We support your economy. We make your food and tend your fields. All we want are the same rights and responsiblities as you. Please... Vote YES on Proposition 801- Equal rights for sock puppets!"
by Gaijin_Suketto on May 3, 2010 7:25 AM PDT up reply actions
Oh, another reason I'm wary of the X-Y-Z construction
is that often I think the best guy to have start the 7th is the starter. If he’s at, say, 90 pitches and pitching well, don’t go to your 3rd best reliever — go with your starter and take it from there.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Thanks, Nico.
I like the Garrison Keillor reference in the opening…
"The only way I'm going to get a Gold Glove is with a can of spray paint." - Reggie Jackson
He's an A's fan -- he won't sue
It's the fans that make the game fun. -- Rickey Henderson, July 26, 2009.
Violating Guidelines
Actually it seems to me Geren rarely lets his relievers go more than one inning even if they are on fire. As I recall the second game against the Angeles Ziegler came in on a tie game in the eighth, and sets the order down. The next inning Ziegler is out and in comes Breslow with the heart of the order coming up. Angeles win 4-3. Perfect time to let Ziegler go two, but Geren had to stick to the script of one inning per reliever.
Good memory.
In fact, in that game Ziggy had struck out the side in the 8th (with one hit sandwiched in) – 20 P / 15 Strikes. Clearly, he had something going on. Prior to that, in the 7th, Blevins set down three in order, with two groundouts and a K – 8 pitches / 4 Strikes.
Perhaps the one thing that can be said is that maybe Geren threw that script out after that game!
A Ballade [for the Angels Fan], by Eustache Deschamps: "We are cowardly, ill-formed and weak / Aged, envious and evil-spoken. / I see only fools and sots / Truly the end is nigh / All goes ill."
I agree that this is where I most often disagree with him
In fact he violated it twice on Saturday, pulling Gio when he was pitching great and would have faced Jose Molina, and pulling Ziggy against a righty (Wells) after he had just struck out Aaron Hill and retired a lefty (Lind) on a ground ball.
I disagreed with both moves — the first didn’t work out well, the second did.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Good balm on a bad-pitching day
“Balm Sunday”.
Good writing Nico. A decent distraction.
"I'm not going to comment on the cacophonous generation of ancillary noise". Ken Korach on the Tampa Bay indoor dome.
by One won lost won on May 2, 2010 5:13 PM PDT reply actions
er
I mean, “Well written, Nico”.
That’s more like it.
"I'm not going to comment on the cacophonous generation of ancillary noise". Ken Korach on the Tampa Bay indoor dome.
by One won lost won on May 2, 2010 5:13 PM PDT up reply actions
Really good post Nico
Helped me understand some things that had been a bit fuzzy. I’m just feeling sad for sorry state our rotation is in right now. Gio’s outing was uplifting but he always gives me the impression he could go from a shut down 1-2-3 inning to a conga line of stumbling, bumbling runs in the blink of an eye.
Baja been here
hard to figure..
but you can be certain that Bob Geren knows putting Breslow into the game to face Alex Rodriguez is not “putting his best foot forward.”…..isn’t that putting it a bit mildly? Doesn’t that rank at “look at me, I’m an idiot, I have no f’ing clue what the hell I’m doing, I like to lose, because I can lose as much as possible and I’d still not get canned” category? That one REALLY REALLY irked me, but perhaps its because its one of the only games I had access to
If he wants to run across the pitcher's mound, tell him to go do laps in the bullpen - pepe
I think what happened in that game is that
Breslow was the assigned “long man” going into the game — the guy who was going to get the call if the starter couldn’t make it through 5 IP. Lefties were up before and after A-Rod, Breslow was the guy up, and the call to the bullpen just happened to fall on A-Rod’s AB.
The reality is that “Gio on a night he’s pitching poorly,” Breslow, and Edwar Ramirez, are all very bad matchups with A-Rod. Ross, too, as we’re now seeing — he’s a two-pitch pitcher without great control who was in AA last year.
But “why Breslow of all people”? Because before the game started, I think the A’s knew that if Gio could get through 5, Breslow was going to get the call. That’s been the case with every team I’ve traveled with: A specific pitcher knows, each day, that he’s “the long man” that day.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Re: Ross, why on earth is he still in the MLB bullpen?
The team has better options at short relief. Sam Demel, Mickey Storey, Henry Rodriguez (wait, is this actual praise for Henry Rodriguez? From me? I think it is— weird…) would be better bullpen options— and they wouldn’t waste SP talent, either. He’s not being used as the actual long man anymore, as witness the random 1-inning outings of late. In the space of a month, he’s been a whopping 0.1 win above replacement.
There’s just no explanation for this behavior.
Arthur Dent: You know, it's at times like this, when I'm trapped in a Vogon airlock with a man from Betelgeuse and about to die of asphyxiation in deep space, that I really wish I'd listened to what my mother told me when I was young.
Ford Prefect: Why, what did she tell you?
Arthur Dent: I don't know, I didn't listen!
My take is they're just giving him a
“getting his feet wet” year, but because he’s pitched well initially he’s been given more and more important chances. Now that he has struggled, and with Wuertz coming back, I’d expect him to move back into a longer relief role. Or maybe AAA.
I’m not agreeing or disagreeing with it, just saying that’s how it looks to me. One thing that I will say is that from what I’ve seen so far, the combo of Ross’ pitches (only fastball and slider) and control (eh) doesn’t suggest to me that he can succeed as a SP as is.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I have an idea:
How about sending him to the minors, where the games don’t really count, and teaching him a third pitch?
Arthur Dent: You know, it's at times like this, when I'm trapped in a Vogon airlock with a man from Betelgeuse and about to die of asphyxiation in deep space, that I really wish I'd listened to what my mother told me when I was young.
Ford Prefect: Why, what did she tell you?
Arthur Dent: I don't know, I didn't listen!
Works for me
And I’m sure it was the plan before he “pitched his way on to the roster” (i.e., pitched well while Wuertz fell apart).
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I would've rather sent Ross down than Kilby for Wuertz.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
Ah wait on second thought, since Kilby pitched a lot of innings the previous days, it makes more sense to send him down.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
well that but
wouldn’t you like Kilby more than Ross next week?
Any maybe have Ross, I don’t know, start games?
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury
Yep, but with the way the rotation has been pitching lately,
and with Wuertz just coming back from injury, it doesn’t make sense to have a short handed bullpen. Also, Cahill and Mazzaro (probably) are pitching the next two days so…
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
Your Arthur Dent sig
motivated me to check “Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy” out of the Albany library.
That particular exchange has to be one of the great all-time conversations in literature. I wanted to (re)read it in context, after all these years.
"I'm not going to comment on the cacophonous generation of ancillary noise". Ken Korach on the Tampa Bay indoor dome.
by One won lost won on May 2, 2010 10:03 PM PDT up reply actions
NINE. MOTHERFUCKING. PITCHES.
this is the ansswer to the question:
“What should never never NEVER be ‘an outing’ for Tyson Ross, who is a STARTING PTICHING PROSPECT?
SIG SPACE AVAILABLE FOR SPONSORSHIP. INQUIRE WITHIN.
This was SOP for young starters for decades in the majors
Starters threw the vast majority of innings, there were only a handful of relief specialists in either league, and if a team had 4 good starters already the only way for a talented, young pitcher to break into the majors was to go to the bullpen and pick up what innings were available until he forced his way into the rotation.
Obviously pitching staff management is nothing like the way it was even in the 1960s or 1970s, but I’d bet that hundreds of successful big league pitchers over the years started their careers in the majors pitching out of the bullpen for a while. I really don’t think a month or 6 weeks in the A’s pen is likely to damage Ross.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
I really don’t think a month or 6 weeks in the A’s pen is likely to damage Ross.
Or even a year in the pen.
by Billy Frijoles on May 3, 2010 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Define "damage"
It lowers his value, does nothing to improve his skills, and makes sure that he is unable to build his IP levels up to the point where he can start for a full season.
I’d certainly call that “damage.”
Arthur Dent: You know, it's at times like this, when I'm trapped in a Vogon airlock with a man from Betelgeuse and about to die of asphyxiation in deep space, that I really wish I'd listened to what my mother told me when I was young.
Ford Prefect: Why, what did she tell you?
Arthur Dent: I don't know, I didn't listen!
It does improve his skills
Dominating inferior competition doesn’t do much to improve your skills. He can obviously hold his own up here so why should he be stuck in the minors? What does that do to a player’s confidence as well, sending him down when he knows he’s good enough to pitch here?
It doesn’t prevent him from building up his innings pitched. He can do that all off season.
by Billy Frijoles on May 3, 2010 5:15 PM PDT up reply actions
Ross learns a lot by pitching against major-league hitters instead of AAA hitters
so I think saying it “does nothing to improve his skills” is wildly overstated. In particular, he’s getting experience pitching in high-leverage, late inning situations against major-league hitters.
And if he continues to be successful, I think he’ll enhance his overall value in other teams’ eyes.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Wow...Johan Santana is taking such a beat-down right now.
The funny thing about baseball is that people will believe what they want to believe. -Joe Posnanski 8/29/09
The Ageless Wonder Strikes again
@MAD_Marvin
The FairWeather Channel - Sports Comics and Bandwagon Forecast
no one cares
but that hurt my fantasy team. How is the AN league going right now anyways? Is BBG winnning/
You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}
She's in second
I’m in 9th. It’s only been a month though….
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
I'd like to play devil's advocate. So let me just say...
Hire Geren now!
OR
Fire Geren now! and then Hire Geren later!
nico for manager
Wuertz was scratched from a minor league game on Wednesday, but bounced back quickly on Thursday, throwing mostly fastballs and sliders, although he did mix in three sliders. -Rotoworld
I think that's the first thing you've said today that wasn't in all caps!
I see you’ve come down from the ledge.
The funny thing about baseball is that people will believe what they want to believe. -Joe Posnanski 8/29/09
Unfortunately, now he's in all lowercase.
Still without punctuation. I’m afraid he’s now a brooding ball of hate instead of his previous outwardly vicious self.
The cap’n will calm down. He’s too cheesy not too.
The selfish, they're all standing in line, faithing and hoping to buy themselves time.
Me, I figure as each breath goes by, I only own my mind.
I'M TRYIN TO STEER THE SHIP BUT SHE AIN'T BUDGIN.
Wuertz was scratched from a minor league game on Wednesday, but bounced back quickly on Thursday, throwing mostly fastballs and sliders, although he did mix in three sliders. -Rotoworld
by ElQuesoCapitan on May 2, 2010 8:08 PM PDT up reply actions
poor cheese boy
The funny thing about baseball is that people will believe what they want to believe. -Joe Posnanski 8/29/09
what is this lookout landing punctutation nazi lol
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
This comment is so disturbing!
The funny thing about baseball is that people will believe what they want to believe. -Joe Posnanski 8/29/09
Um. Iglew?
[waves fingers in front of eyes]
The selfish, they're all standing in line, faithing and hoping to buy themselves time.
Me, I figure as each breath goes by, I only own my mind.
Is it?
I’m awfully loud toda— BEN FUCKING SHEETS ok.
Wuertz was scratched from a minor league game on Wednesday, but bounced back quickly on Thursday, throwing mostly fastballs and sliders, although he did mix in three sliders. -Rotoworld
by ElQuesoCapitan on May 2, 2010 8:09 PM PDT up reply actions
the synergistic aspects really rule the day in baseball like no other sport, almost
the domino effects are so multidimensional in a sport where it’s all about the individual and the team all at the same time.
This post kicks so much ass through the goalposts off Hell from 64 yards out that I am leaving it on the FP all morning and afternoon… you all be sure look for me with the pregame thread whenever lineups go up! Honestly whatever bullsh*t pictorial illustration of how Ben Sheets is an obstinate, entitled and delusional athlete I was gonna come up with absolutely would pale in comparison to this post, which features actual data supplying reasonable and prescient analysis, which is sometimes a little hard for me, you might have noticed O_0
Hello, I'm Vince Cotroneo for the Marmaduke B. Mushmouth School of Public Speaking...
Thanks, EN, and others who have had kind words for this post
I never know what to say in reply (“Uh…thanks!”), but I can tell you that the comments are always appreciated.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
A log time ago.
30 plus years ago, certainly during the Athletics dynasty years in the 70’s, there was the starting pitcher, and the reliever who was expected to go the distance. No such thing as the middle relievers and the closer. A lot more complete games from the starting pitcher as well. Do I think that would work in todays game? No, but it goes back to what Nico stated earlier about expecting your middle reliever to go at least 2 innings. Maybe even let your middle reliever close out a game if he’s dominating the opposing lineup. I think to many managers out think themselves about working in different relievers for different situations.
Hasn't Gaudin been good this year, though?
It’s not easy filling the shoes of fan favorite Bobby Crosby, but Cliff Pennington says he’s up to the challenge.
He has a ridiculous 11.25 K/9, an average walk rate, and a .389 BABIP.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on May 3, 2010 12:05 AM PDT up reply actions
re: Guideline #2:
Guideline #2: A guy who is in and pitching really well is a better bet than a new pitcher of similar ability.
For the most part I agree with this. To me the trend to shorten the SP’s responsibility has gone too far… to the point of often removing them when they’re actually doing fine. Not only does it throw the game into the unknown of the reliever, but it also weakens the SP mentally and physically in the long run. They lose their mental and physical toughness because they know they’re going to get “bailed out” at the drop of a hat.
However having said that, my memory tells me that it does still happen in reverse, also. Was it Zito or Blanton (or both?) that would often be allowed to pitch late into a game only to be left in just long enough to give up the game? Often into the 8th or 9th innings, I mean.
Pitching and defense wins pennants, but offense sells tickets.
HIRE NICO NOW!
"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez
He's already got two jobs, though.
Although I’m sure he could leave one of them to you! :)
You’d make a great junior high school counselor and shop teacher. Congratulations! :) :)
"We support your economy. We make your food and tend your fields. All we want are the same rights and responsiblities as you. Please... Vote YES on Proposition 801- Equal rights for sock puppets!"
by Gaijin_Suketto on May 3, 2010 8:45 AM PDT up reply actions
Sigh.
Well I had a good run.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Nothing yet on Duke?
Twitter is oddly silent for both Jane Lee and SuSlu
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!! - danmerqury
We haven't used the DL in 24 hours
It makes me nervous. Shoe needs to drop.
"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez
I don’t know, but Michael Wuertz is back. Brad Kilby is back in Sacramento.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on May 3, 2010 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions
That was a no brainer
considering they used Kilby for multiple innings.
here you go rivercats
you can’t use him for a week
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury
Questions about Wuertz
While he put up zeros during his rehab, Wuretz had very few clean innings against hitters in A (in Stockton) and AAA (in Sacramento). His WHIP was nothing to be excited about. Hopeful, but…anxious to see what happens in MLB.
I think he was just trying to get his arm right and not necessarily totally focused on getting outs.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on May 3, 2010 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions
wuertz off the dl, kilby back to aaa
No link as I’m mobile posting
But I saw it in the transactions part of the a’s website
by stm72 on May 3, 2010 4:14 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I’m not that optimistic.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on May 3, 2010 4:40 PM PDT up reply actions
They all said to expect news Tuesday.
The full-circle inspection is today… could be a dark, dark day.
The funny thing about baseball is that people will believe what they want to believe. -Joe Posnanski 8/29/09
I am prepared for tomorrow's slaughter
an am anticipating fresh meat.
"We support your economy. We make your food and tend your fields. All we want are the same rights and responsiblities as you. Please... Vote YES on Proposition 801- Equal rights for sock puppets!"
by Gaijin_Suketto on May 3, 2010 6:01 PM PDT up reply actions
From the Urb's tweets to AN
breaking
#athletics
news: Just learned J. Duchscherer will get cortisone shot in L hip, rest a couple days before testing. No DL for now.
http://twitter.com/MUrbanCSN/status/13331492497
Duke via text, “Hopefully it helps.”
The funny thing about baseball is that people will believe what they want to believe. -Joe Posnanski 8/29/09
Athletics feed says Duke is "day-to-day"
with Mazz starting tomorrow. I guess this qualifies as good news given events of the past week. So, yay?
@worldblee on Twitter.
well with the injection he will have to miss a start
but maybe back before the next one. (refuses to hold breath)
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury
Whereas "helpfully it hopes" wouldn't sound very helpful.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
this sounds like a surgery waiting to be scheduled
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!! - danmerqury
by cuppingmaster on May 3, 2010 5:28 PM PDT up reply actions
HAHAH AWESOME WAIT STOP ME IF YOU'VE HEARD THIS ONE
guy gets hurt, comes out of game..
guy isn’t sure if he’s going to be Ok or not
team sends him to get evaluated, nothing really conclusive comes out of it
team says guy is day to day and will be held out of his next start
after one skipped start, guy’s injury doesn’t get any better and he skips a second start
12 days later, guy goes on disabled list, with no timetable for return
SIG SPACE AVAILABLE FOR SPONSORSHIP. INQUIRE WITHIN.
ding ding ding
What is: The Oakland A’s?
The funny thing about baseball is that people will believe what they want to believe. -Joe Posnanski 8/29/09
Wow.
Well, that’s good news, I suppose. Still…I’m scared.
The selfish, they're all standing in line, faithing and hoping to buy themselves time.
Me, I figure as each breath goes by, I only own my mind.
Angels down 7-3 in the 6th,
could fall to 12-15. So all is not bad in the AL West!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
don't you mean
all is bad in the AL west so that is good?
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury
I mean that
bad is not all in the AL West!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal




























