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Around SBN: Following UFC 146 Loss, Jason 'Mayhem' Miller 'Done' in UFC

Reviving Moneyball Play: Why I Hate The Sacrifice Bunt

Last call for SoCal AN Day tickets! The final ticket order will be placed tomorrow at midnight, so order yours now!

Just for fun, and because I doubt we'll stay here very long, I would like to direct your attention to the SB Nation Power Rankings, where your first-place Oakland Athletics have soared up the charts, moving from 21 to 12! You'd never know it from last night, but at least we have one more day to savor the top spot in the West.

Tonight's rubber game will be at 7:10, so we have the entire day to chat. Specifically, I would like to talk about the sacrifice bunt, or in other words, what happened to the A's of the Moneyball era?

From Eric Walker's, The Sinister First Baseman (the precursor to Moneyball), "A Desultory Phillippic":

One of the recurring themes in the game of baseball is the delicacy of its many balances, the nicety of the differences between winning and losing; so these options, though they may be perhaps small influences by comparison with such larger factors as the innate abilities of the players, are quite capable of exerting a major effect on net results. Though a number of such options exist, each with its own range of possibilities, there are, at bottom, two basic, opposed philosophies that may guide a manager's pattern of choices within these options. Choices like stealing, bunting, using the hit-and run: these are tactical moves. The range of strategy is bounded by the two extremes frequently denominated the "big inning" approach and the "play for one run" approach. The terms are apt descriptions of the underlying logic.

I hate the sacrifice bunt. There, I said it.

I hate giving away outs. I don't care what the official playbook says the batter should do; there are only 27 outs in a baseball game, and I hate when one is handed to he other team on a silver platter. I especially hate this when a patient batter, who is one of your better hitters, is at the plate and a distracting baserunner is on the basepaths. I'm all about stealing bases, but I can't stand the thought of giving outs away.

Each strategy represents an approach to the minimization of risks. There is nothing much for a strategist to work with until a man gets on base; then there is a lot. Take the simple and common case of a runner on first with none out. One obvious risk is that the succeeding batters will make three outs without advancing him home. Another risk is that he will be involved in a double play. There are ways to possibly reduce these risks. If he steals second, the double-play risk is virtually eliminated, and his chances of being stranded somewhat lessened; in return, however, he assumes the risk of being thrown out stealing.


Good management consists of making intuitive estimates of the relative magnitudes of these two sets of risks, as well as of those involved in the other possible alternatives, such as a bunt or a hit-and-run-play. These probabilities are not fixed things; a manger cannot reach a firm decision about each and then blindly follow it.

Here is my problem with Sunday's sacrifice bunt, to use a specific example, and it is also my early problem with the current management style. Each and every at-bat should be analyzed based on the runner(s) involved, the batter involved and the game situation, not what 'traditional baseball' says should be done. I think a sacrifice bunt is the wrong call in almost all situations, but especially this one.

Star-divide

It's the first inning of the game. Rajai Davis walks, and promptly steals second base. Joe Morgan-esque baseball mandates that the batter (Daric Barton) should bunt, thus moving the runner to third base, where he can score in any number of ways, without the A's even needing a hit. Sounds simple and automatic, does it not?

The "one-run" strategy generally involves a great deal of managerial button-pushing. The emphasis is on what is variously termed "execution", "doing the little things right", or, most presumptuous, "sound fundamentals." When the very second batter of the game lays down a satisfactory sacrifice bunt, he is "showing good execution," and the team is "playing sound fundamental baseball." Please note that if he instead blasts the ball into the upper deck for a two-run homer, your favorite sportcaster will never say that the man executed well, or that his shot was good fundamental baseball.

This book was written in the 80's, but feel free to add, "He plays the game the right way" to the list of trite and obnoxious phrases that basically mean that the batter didn't hit a homerun.

In our specific situation, with a 1-1 count, with Rajai successfully distracting the pitcher, Barton successfully bunted Rajai to third base. Congratulations; our best hitter just gave up his very first at-bat in exchange for 90 feet.

And don't even get me started on Monday night's sac bunt by the red-hot Rosales; everyone in the stadium, including the people on the train and Jake Fox himself, knew that that runner was going to be stranded at third. Last night's bunt is easier to defend, since Travis Buck is hitting at the level of a pitcher, but again, there are only 27 outs in the game and you've just given away one. And it didn't work either; that runner died at third, in what is rapidly becoming a theme for the A's.

Conversely, the big-inning approach is based on the idea of competent hitters. It is often somewhat erroneously associated with long-ball hitting, but really it relies more on a good on-base percentage than power per se; the basic concept is that the batter won't make out all that easily. Still, good RBI power will generally be associated with the "big-inning" approach. Broadly speaking, the manager is gambling an increased risk of no runs at all against increased chances for multiple runs.

Even if Rajai scored during Sweeney's first-inning at-bat (he didn't), I would still hate the call. The game started off with a baserunner on second and no one out; why not let Barton try to get on base himself? He walks a lot, and with a hit; it's likely that Rajai either scores or you have two baserunners on and no one out. Sure, with the bunt, you have a slightly better chance of scoring that one run, but you certainly diminish your chances of scoring more than one. And if you're playing for one run in the first inning when your ultimate goal is to score many runs as possible to win a baseball game, you're doing it the wrong way!

Unfortunately, all too many managers are doctrinaire about their strategy, and (like most people) the more their illogic is exposed, the more adamant they get. Watching a .280-hitting, 20-plus home-run-a-year #3 or #4 batter try to dump a sacrifice bunt is not funny; it's painful. It's bad enough even if it works, and far worse when it doesn't, which is most of the time. Worst of all is to later hear that manager bellyaching about how none of these kids know how to execute the fundamentals (remember that one?) any more. In my naïveté, I have always thought that getting a hit was the fundamental of batting, and that 150 to 200 of them a year qualified a batter as competent; but no, I guess making an out is today's new fundamental of batting.

1982. This book was written in 1982. Thirty years later, and we're still explaining this idea, and I'm looking now at the team who started it all and wondering, What are you doing?

Regardless of any of your feelings on these topics, one thing is clear. It does not matter what you believe; the truth is that we cannot possibly remember every little nuance of a game, or every single AB of a player. We need something to remind us, and for a lot of us, we find it infinitely more accurate to go with actual numbers than our gut feelings. You want to know if Smallball is a good way to manage a game? Well, all we can do is look at tangible data; in this case, the odds of a runner scoring from first with no one out and the odds of a runner scoring from second with one out, and any other data we deem relevant when making a decision.

...

I'll spell it out: There is a slightly higher percentage of that one run scoring if you bunt the runner over to second base, but by giving up the out with a sacrifice, you reduce the number of total runs scored by a run every other time it's used. Practical application? A team that tries to sacrifice a hundred times over the course of a season in an attempt to get those single runs across the plate has just cost itself about fifty runs overall.

Believe me, I subscribe to the theory that the 2010 Oakland A's need to be very creative in scoring runs. They are not going to have anywhere near the power of other clubs, and they will have to scratch and claw to score enough runs to complement their stellar pitching. All the more reason to not give up outs and at-bats, especially not Barton's!

Walker offers a ratio in the book: the runs your team has scored to the runs its opponents have scored. We are all familiar with this one; we use it all the time. How many runs a team has scored vs. allowed directly corresponds (within a reasonable margin for error) to that team's W/L record. Isn't the goal of baseball to score runs? Many runs? Knowing that the more runs you score, the more games you will win? Knowing that although you may lose one game 1-0, you may win a future game 10-9 because your ultimate goal is to score as many runs as possible?

And let's not forget; the sac bunt doesn't even always work. It costs us an out when it does work, but when it doesn't, it's literally a wasted at-bat.

Honestly, the only time I would use the sacrifice bunt is in the late innings when my team needed one run to win the game. I would take a chance to get a runner to third with less than two outs with just about anyone if it meant scoring that specific run to end the game.

(It goes without saying that none of this applies to pitchers' at-bats, I'm speaking AL-only.)

Now, don't misunderstand me. Bunting is fun. Sometimes it's a great idea. You'll notice that the most dramatic moment of the movie Major League actually came about on a bunt. But, please notice that that was bunting with a purpose; with a specific goal in mind, and that goal was not to make an out. Ramon Hernandez owns one of the most famous bunts in Oakland A's history, and his goal was not to make an out, but rather to creatively take advantage of the defense and get the runner home. It's not that I dislike the bunt itself; it's that I think it's an extremely stupid idea to waste a perfectly good out just because you are 'supposed' to. Taking advantage of what the other team is willing to give you offensively is smart baseball. Gift-wrapping an out and handing it to the other team is not smart baseball. And with games like last night's, we are going to need every one.

I'll see you all back here tonight for the game thread action as the A's try to win their third series in a row!


Current Series

3 game series vs Mariners @ SAFECO Field

Mon 04/12 WP: Justin Duchscherer (1 - 0)
LP: Ryan Rowland-Smith (0 - 1)
4 - 0 win
Tue 04/13 WP: Doug Fister (1 - 1)
SV: David Aardsma
LP: Brad Ziegler (0 - 2)
0 - 3 loss

Oakland Athletics
@ Seattle Mariners

Wednesday, Apr 14, 2010, 7:10 PM PDT
SAFECO Field

Gio Gonzalez vs Jason Vargas

Partly cloudy. Winds blowing in from left field at 5-10 m.p.h. Game time temperature around 50.

Complete Coverage >


Comment 368 comments  |  1 recs  | 

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Hitting into double plays is good

If it wasn’t teams would not do it.

Silly over-exaggeration aside, I don’t agree that the sacrifice bunt is, in and of itself, bad. It’s all in when and how it’s used.

For starters, I’ll stay away from talking about having pitchers justifiably use it because the A’s aren’t in the National League.

Don’t use it early in the game.

Don’t have one of your better contact hitters use it, just about ever.

Don’t have a power hitter use it, just about ever.

Do have a lesser hitter use it in a situation where you doubt he can advance the runner by hitting to the right side or you doubt he can get a hit in that situation.

Do use it late in a game when all you need is a single run and you have better hitters coming up after the guy you want bunting.

That’s more or less it.

Last of the Ninth - Photography

by Flashfire on Apr 14, 2010 9:24 AM PDT up reply actions  

what about favorable lefty / righty effects?

Or hitters that K more might be asked to bunt, while contact hitters may swing more.

by MobiusKlein on Apr 14, 2010 9:27 AM PDT up reply actions  

I agree

I can’t generalize whether I do or do not like the sac bunt. It all depends on who is up, who is up to follow, what inning, what score, etc.

It can be used properly like Flash said, late in the game with a weaker contact hitter and a chance to put that one run you need (whether insurance or winning run, whatever) onto third base with less than two outs.

I’ll add as well, if the opposing starter is dominating the A’s (which will happen a lot, I’m afraid) then strategic plays like steals and sac bunts, etc. are more likely to produce a run then waiting for the big hit that may not come.

"I did nothing. I did absolutely nothing, and it was everything that I thought it could be." -- Peter Gibbons

by dtownmbrown on Apr 14, 2010 9:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

I don't even think of it as moving someone from second to third primarily

I think of it as moving someone from first to second where one hit stands a better chance of scoring him while eliminating the chance of a double play prior to that.

I’d almost never use a sac bunt to move someone who’s already at second with 0 or 1 out. First and second, maybe only to stay out of the double play and take away a force out situation.

Last of the Ninth - Photography

by Flashfire on Apr 14, 2010 10:02 AM PDT up reply actions  

The goal isn't to produce a run

The goal is to produce a win. If it’s 1-0 in the top of the 6th inning, playing for one run makes little sense because the odds are rather against you holding the other team to no runs in 4 innings.

Shawn Spencer: Ahoy there! Um, yes. Right! My name is Shawn Spencer! This is my first mate Hummingbird Saltalamacchia!
Burton Guster: Hello!
Shawn Spencer: We were turned around-- discombobulated! We... we just now realized we're in restricted waters.
Burton Guster: Just now! And we both have hepatitis!

by PaulThomas on Apr 14, 2010 10:09 AM PDT up reply actions  

This

Brilliant:

The goal isn’t to produce a run. The goal is to produce a win.

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 10:11 AM PDT up reply actions  

There are limits to this.

You wouldn’t use your scheduled starters for the next two games to hold a lead in todays game. Then you’d be putting the outcome in the following games at risk just to win one game.

Root for the Giants? Not even if they're playing al-Qaeda!

by Monday Fan on Apr 14, 2010 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

I misunderstood you.

It wasn’t clear to me that you were limiting the statement to the sacrifice bunt. It came across as “a win is a win” the way I read it.

Root for the Giants? Not even if they're playing al-Qaeda!

by Monday Fan on Apr 14, 2010 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

Within the context of that single game, sure

Not “sacrificing” future games by bringing in pitchers who aren’t on their turns.

Last of the Ninth - Photography

by Flashfire on Apr 14, 2010 3:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yes, but if you make it a habit...

…over the long run, regularly using the sac bunt is going to cost you games overall, even if it wins “that” one game.

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

The point is that many sacrifice plays reduce win expectancy

even though they increase the odds of not getting shut out.

Shawn Spencer: Ahoy there! Um, yes. Right! My name is Shawn Spencer! This is my first mate Hummingbird Saltalamacchia!
Burton Guster: Hello!
Shawn Spencer: We were turned around-- discombobulated! We... we just now realized we're in restricted waters.
Burton Guster: Just now! And we both have hepatitis!

by PaulThomas on Apr 14, 2010 10:25 AM PDT up reply actions  

And sometimes, even WITH the 'automatic' bunt

you still get shut out (see: last night)

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 10:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

Here's a potentially dumb theorhetical question

Say, for example, a team gets a leadoff double every single inning. Removing all aspects of game theory, shouldn’t they bunt with the next hitter every time? Or would that only make sense if the team knew they were going to get the leadoff double every inning?

In other words, if you can play for 1 run in every inning, shouldn’t you do it?

www.zekeishungry.com

by thejd44 on Apr 14, 2010 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'd guess not

I suspect the odds of scoring a runner from 2nd with no outs is likely better than scoring a runner from third with 1 out.

Leopold Bloom on why he loves Mr. Peter Gammons, his best buddy:
"Peter Gammons systematically ignored and/or ran down the A’s in the pages of Sports Illustrated and The Sporting News for a good ten year stretch in the late seventies and early to mid-eighties. Trust me, the c**ksucker hates our team."

by DMOAS on Apr 14, 2010 12:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Probably

At that point, you’d be willing to sacrifice a great deal of run expectancy in order to even out your run distribution on a per-game basis. But again, the other team will react, and may play their infield close on the theory that they might as well take a chance on balls getting through since they’re so unlikely to win that they’d have to get lucky to have any chance anyway.

Shawn Spencer: Ahoy there! Um, yes. Right! My name is Shawn Spencer! This is my first mate Hummingbird Saltalamacchia!
Burton Guster: Hello!
Shawn Spencer: We were turned around-- discombobulated! We... we just now realized we're in restricted waters.
Burton Guster: Just now! And we both have hepatitis!

by PaulThomas on Apr 14, 2010 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

No

Run expectancy for a runner on second/no outs is about 0.2 runs higher then runner on 3rd/one out.

Or in other words, the team that would bunt in every inning of every game that started with a double, would score about 300 runs less over a course of a season than a team that wouldn’t.

by elcroata on Apr 14, 2010 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

They're lowering how many runs they score in an inning

But they are increasing the chances of scoring 1 run. It’s almost as if you treat every inning as if you just led off with a double in the 9th inning of a tie game.

www.zekeishungry.com

by thejd44 on Apr 14, 2010 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think you misunderstood what he said

At any given time, having a runner on second with no outs has a higher expectancy of scoring than having a runner at 3rd with one out. They aren’t increasing their chances of scoring that one run at all. They’re lowering it by 0.2 each time they sacrifice.

Leopold Bloom on why he loves Mr. Peter Gammons, his best buddy:
"Peter Gammons systematically ignored and/or ran down the A’s in the pages of Sports Illustrated and The Sporting News for a good ten year stretch in the late seventies and early to mid-eighties. Trust me, the c**ksucker hates our team."

by DMOAS on Apr 14, 2010 4:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

I believe that you're confusing run expectancy with "probability of 1 run or greater"

Bunting a runner from second to third increases the odds that that runner will score. It greatly decreases the odds that some OTHER runner will score that inning. Overall, it’s a negative.

However, in this weird hypothesized thought-experiment, the negative impact on run scoring might be outweighed by the positive impact on the certainty of scoring at least 4-5 runs, which normally will win you a game.

Shawn Spencer: Ahoy there! Um, yes. Right! My name is Shawn Spencer! This is my first mate Hummingbird Saltalamacchia!
Burton Guster: Hello!
Shawn Spencer: We were turned around-- discombobulated! We... we just now realized we're in restricted waters.
Burton Guster: Just now! And we both have hepatitis!

by PaulThomas on Apr 14, 2010 4:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ahhh...

K. Good to know. I’ll forget in about 5 minutes. But good to know right now.

Leopold Bloom on why he loves Mr. Peter Gammons, his best buddy:
"Peter Gammons systematically ignored and/or ran down the A’s in the pages of Sports Illustrated and The Sporting News for a good ten year stretch in the late seventies and early to mid-eighties. Trust me, the c**ksucker hates our team."

by DMOAS on Apr 14, 2010 4:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

This is wrong in my opinion- The Duluth Wrong Data

This is wrong. IMO it is the Texas Sharpshooter syndrome turned inside out.
It is also the Duluth Wrong Data

“I live here in Duluth. What should I wear today when I go outside?”

“According to the climate data, the average daytime temperature is sixty-eight degrees in Duluth. Wear a sweatshirt.”

Wrong Data in use. First question is, “What is today’s date?” If it is July 15th or January 15th, it makes all the difference as to what you wear. In fact, a wrong choice could be fatal.

The average temperature in Duluth over 365 days…tons and tons of temperature readings over years and years, as far back as you want… all pushed together will NOT answer the question about “What should I wear.”

This is the same with the “man on second, no outs” cumulation of data. This is not a coin toss, it is a series of different major league hitters, pitchers, scores. Just as one would ask, “What date is it?” one could only make the decision about bunting or not bunting as to the score (how many top pitchers are pitching, when the score is 8-0 in favor of the team that is batting, who just put a man at second with no outs?) the inning (is it 0-0 in the 10th, or is it top of the first, 3-0 visitors with no one out?) not even to mention the players involved (Orel Hershiser pitching in 1988, or in 1998?).

I thought Sunday’s game was the wrong place for a sacrifice. But I don’t think that is true in every instance. Just like I might wear flip flops and shorts in Duluth, but not on January 15th.

Blez: Most folks seem to believe that the big flaw with the 2010 Oakland A's will be the lack of any power.

Beane: They believe it because it's true.

by One won lost won on Apr 14, 2010 6:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well said!

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Apr 14, 2010 7:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

yabut

that is what they are talking about, a theoretical situation

Here’s a potentially dumb theorhetical question

Say, for example, a team gets a leadoff double every single inning. Removing all aspects of game theory, shouldn’t they bunt with the next hitter every time? Or would that only make sense if the team knew they were going to get the leadoff double every inning?

In other words, if you can play for 1 run in every inning, shouldn’t you do it?

see?

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury

by Future Ed on Apr 14, 2010 10:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

See?

I formulate my answers while washing dishes, after I have read the comments and thoroughly altered them in my brain.

Thus I say, “No comprendo..”

Blez: Most folks seem to believe that the big flaw with the 2010 Oakland A's will be the lack of any power.

Beane: They believe it because it's true.

by One won lost won on Apr 15, 2010 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

That was a long rebuttal of an opinion never voiced

I was not debating that there is no place for a sacrifice bunt in baseball at all. The question posed would be to the effects of doing it every single inning, as Future Ed also pointed out.

by elcroata on Apr 15, 2010 12:29 AM PDT up reply actions  

See "See?"

I’m not much for details.

Good story about World War I, when a US Senator was asked (just after the US had declared war on Germany) what the United States should do about the German submarine menace.

“Drain the Atlantic Ocean!!”

??!! !!!!

When pressed about the means by which such a plan was to be carried out, he said, “I’m a big picture guy. I leave the details for others to figure out.”

Blez: Most folks seem to believe that the big flaw with the 2010 Oakland A's will be the lack of any power.

Beane: They believe it because it's true.

by One won lost won on Apr 15, 2010 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

On the flip side...

…there are situations where producing that one run will produce a win.

Pitching and defense wins pennants, but offense sells tickets.

by UncleLeo on Apr 14, 2010 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yes, but the other team is just as aware of that fact as you are

assuming they are not complete idiots, and will play much harder than usual to prevent/stop a bunt.

Shawn Spencer: Ahoy there! Um, yes. Right! My name is Shawn Spencer! This is my first mate Hummingbird Saltalamacchia!
Burton Guster: Hello!
Shawn Spencer: We were turned around-- discombobulated! We... we just now realized we're in restricted waters.
Burton Guster: Just now! And we both have hepatitis!

by PaulThomas on Apr 14, 2010 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

They will. Well, they should.

Even when they do the sac bunt still sometimes works in those situations. Sometimes it doesn’t. Then we could talk about statistical probability, and all that fun stuff.

In case you’re wondering, I’m not a huge fan of the sac bunt, btw, but… I wouldn’t go so far as to advocate its complete elimination.

Pitching and defense wins pennants, but offense sells tickets.

by UncleLeo on Apr 14, 2010 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well, if you read PTs statement below

He’s not advocating its elimination either. It’s just got be selectively random enough that it’s increasing the opportunity to swing away.

Leopold Bloom on why he loves Mr. Peter Gammons, his best buddy:
"Peter Gammons systematically ignored and/or ran down the A’s in the pages of Sports Illustrated and The Sporting News for a good ten year stretch in the late seventies and early to mid-eighties. Trust me, the c**ksucker hates our team."

by DMOAS on Apr 14, 2010 4:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

Agreed.

I wasn’t suggesting that PT advocated the sac bunt’s elimination. I was merely clarifying my own stance so it wouldn’t be misconstrued.

Pitching and defense wins pennants, but offense sells tickets.

by UncleLeo on Apr 14, 2010 5:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

For what it's worth

Most NL teams royally F up pitcher bunting situations (almost no pitcher is a bad enough hitter to bunt with 1 out, for example).

www.zekeishungry.com

by thejd44 on Apr 14, 2010 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

is it bad for a pitcher to be on base, period?

as in a pitcher on base has to run around, possibly slide, and not get prepared for the next inning. Is it better for their pitching stats to not be on base?

by MobiusKlein on Apr 14, 2010 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

Pitchers shouldn't hit at all. They should pitch.

They should be able to designate a player to hit in the pitcher’s place in the batting order. That would be awesome.

I AM VERY MUCH ENJOYING THE HITTING OF BASEBALLS AND SCORING OF RUNS. -mikev
only an ZOMG CENSORED WORD FAMILY SITE quotes himself. -mikev

by mikev on Apr 14, 2010 12:49 PM PDT up reply actions   2 recs

You IDIOT!

there is already a rule like that.

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury

by Future Ed on Apr 14, 2010 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

NOWAI?

I AM THE SMARTEST MAN ALIVE.

I AM VERY MUCH ENJOYING THE HITTING OF BASEBALLS AND SCORING OF RUNS. -mikev
only an ZOMG CENSORED WORD FAMILY SITE quotes himself. -mikev

by mikev on Apr 14, 2010 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

Damn straight you are!

Leopold Bloom on why he loves Mr. Peter Gammons, his best buddy:
"Peter Gammons systematically ignored and/or ran down the A’s in the pages of Sports Illustrated and The Sporting News for a good ten year stretch in the late seventies and early to mid-eighties. Trust me, the c**ksucker hates our team."

by DMOAS on Apr 14, 2010 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

A-FREAKIN-MEN!

DH for everyone!

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

The flip side of this is, of course, is

…the opposing team in an NFL game gets to designate the opponent’s field goal kicker for the game, from their roster.

Blez: Most folks seem to believe that the big flaw with the 2010 Oakland A's will be the lack of any power.

Beane: They believe it because it's true.

by One won lost won on Apr 14, 2010 6:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

teams don't inted to hit into double plays, its often why they bunt

"I get nervous every fifth day," Braden said. "I figure the day that goes away is the day I saddle up behind the 7-Eleven desk."

by Jessse on Apr 14, 2010 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

teams don't intend to throw intercepts, so they should punt on 1st down?

Leopold Bloom on why he loves Mr. Peter Gammons, his best buddy:
"Peter Gammons systematically ignored and/or ran down the A’s in the pages of Sports Illustrated and The Sporting News for a good ten year stretch in the late seventies and early to mid-eighties. Trust me, the c**ksucker hates our team."

by DMOAS on Apr 14, 2010 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

If sabermetrics has taught us one thing,

it’s that baseball teams often are not rational.

Sundown dazzling day, gold through my eyes.
But my eyes, turned within, only see
starless and bible black.

by danmerqury on Apr 14, 2010 1:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

But are they reasonable?

If it was true that the old canards were wrong, then should not the MLB games produce things like extremely even pennant races, year in and year out? Or, teams that sacrificed the most often had the worse W-L records???

Blez: Most folks seem to believe that the big flaw with the 2010 Oakland A's will be the lack of any power.

Beane: They believe it because it's true.

by One won lost won on Apr 14, 2010 6:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

Way too many correlation/causation problems to make that "correlation with winning" analysis plausible

With that said, given that we have databases of what happened in hundreds of thousands of innings in which sacrifices did and did not happen, and the innings without sacrifices outscored the innings with sacrifices by essentially the same amount that, say, a Markov chain model would predict.

Shawn Spencer: Ahoy there! Um, yes. Right! My name is Shawn Spencer! This is my first mate Hummingbird Saltalamacchia!
Burton Guster: Hello!
Shawn Spencer: We were turned around-- discombobulated! We... we just now realized we're in restricted waters.
Burton Guster: Just now! And we both have hepatitis!

by PaulThomas on Apr 14, 2010 10:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

Published where?

Bill James? Earliest stuff by him?

I just don’t want to repeat what you said without specific citation.

Blez: Most folks seem to believe that the big flaw with the 2010 Oakland A's will be the lack of any power.

Beane: They believe it because it's true.

by One won lost won on Apr 15, 2010 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

If you have played chess, or a game like Risk,

you find that sometimes you have to forfeit a battle order to move toward the greater goal of winning the war. Granted, there is a chance you will fail, but if you calculate it properly, you minimize that risk.

Outs are a resource. I agree that giving them away is not generally a good thing, but if you take something back by executing the bunt properly, with the right person, in the right situation, then that resource is being used properly.

by LoneStranger on Apr 14, 2010 8:31 AM PDT reply actions  

Right, in a tie game

where you only need to score one run. There is maybe a marginal case in a game in which you’re down by 1 in your last AB, but again, you’ve given up the one thing you can’t get back when they are the most precious: outs.

"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey

Everything is better with bacon.

by cuppingmaster on Apr 14, 2010 8:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

Exactly
but again, you’ve given up the one thing you can’t get back when they are the most precious: outs.

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 9:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

It will always be a calculated risk

If the guy strikes out, you still have the runner where he was unless he steals a base.

If you had someone at first and the guy GIDP, you lose two outs just like that.

I think it’s all about the situation, who’s at the plate, and how confident the manager is that he can either put the bunt down, move the runner up by hitting to the right side, or avoid a double play and maybe even reach base himself.

Last of the Ninth - Photography

by Flashfire on Apr 14, 2010 9:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

One thing we can all agree on:

It’s okay to bunt if it’s Jake Fox, Travis Buck, or Eric Patterson at bat ;-)

"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey

Everything is better with bacon.

by cuppingmaster on Apr 14, 2010 9:46 AM PDT up reply actions  

I dunno about Fox

He could probably miss a bunt almost as easily as a regular swing.

Last of the Ninth - Photography

by Flashfire on Apr 14, 2010 9:52 AM PDT up reply actions  

No, we can't agree on that.

I rarely see a situation where the sacrifice bunt is acceptable. It has to be a situation with a dominant pitcher, a feeble hitter, and the runner on base represents the run that wins the game. I don’t mean he puts the team ahead. I mean, he scores, game over, A’s win. This would be something like Rich Becker facing Randy Johnson or Rob Picciolo facing Goose Gossage.

Root for the Giants? Not even if they're playing al-Qaeda!

by Monday Fan on Apr 14, 2010 9:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

(it was a joke)

"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey

Everything is better with bacon.

by cuppingmaster on Apr 14, 2010 10:07 AM PDT up reply actions  

Aside from the fact that Eric Patterson has failed miserably the last few times I've seen him try to bunt, you mean

I AM VERY MUCH ENJOYING THE HITTING OF BASEBALLS AND SCORING OF RUNS. -mikev
only an ZOMG CENSORED WORD FAMILY SITE quotes himself. -mikev

by mikev on Apr 14, 2010 10:00 AM PDT up reply actions  

He just needs to stand there and pray the ball hits HIM

OR retire.

Leopold Bloom on why he loves Mr. Peter Gammons, his best buddy:
"Peter Gammons systematically ignored and/or ran down the A’s in the pages of Sports Illustrated and The Sporting News for a good ten year stretch in the late seventies and early to mid-eighties. Trust me, the c**ksucker hates our team."

by DMOAS on Apr 14, 2010 10:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

In Soviet Russia (and if you're Eric Patterson)

the balls hits you

"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey

Everything is better with bacon.

by cuppingmaster on Apr 14, 2010 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

Fail

In Soviet Russia, the ball prays to hit Eric Patterson.

Leopold Bloom on why he loves Mr. Peter Gammons, his best buddy:
"Peter Gammons systematically ignored and/or ran down the A’s in the pages of Sports Illustrated and The Sporting News for a good ten year stretch in the late seventies and early to mid-eighties. Trust me, the c**ksucker hates our team."

by DMOAS on Apr 14, 2010 11:03 AM PDT up reply actions  

ISWYDT

"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey

Everything is better with bacon.

by cuppingmaster on Apr 14, 2010 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

No
It’s okay to bunt if it’s Jake Fox, Travis Buck, or Eric Patterson at bat ;-)

That’s what pinch hitters are for.

by ozzman99 on Apr 14, 2010 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

The odds of a pinch hitter actually being better for the situation than one of those guys are very low

First off, this is the A’s. Who is the pinch hitter going to be?

Second off, pinch hitters are like one level above pitchers in overall performance. Coming off the bench cold has a huge negative impact on hitting ability.

Shawn Spencer: Ahoy there! Um, yes. Right! My name is Shawn Spencer! This is my first mate Hummingbird Saltalamacchia!
Burton Guster: Hello!
Shawn Spencer: We were turned around-- discombobulated! We... we just now realized we're in restricted waters.
Burton Guster: Just now! And we both have hepatitis!

by PaulThomas on Apr 14, 2010 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

What about if it's Eric Chavez at bat?

Would you favor a pinch hitter then?

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

by iglew on Apr 14, 2010 4:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I know PH's usually suck

I’m just saying, those three are poor hitters.

As for who would PH, I should think the answer is obvious. It would have to be Rosales. After all, he’s hot!

by ozzman99 on Apr 14, 2010 4:50 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

That's like at least the third kitten that God has killed on just this thread alone

Shawn Spencer: Ahoy there! Um, yes. Right! My name is Shawn Spencer! This is my first mate Hummingbird Saltalamacchia!
Burton Guster: Hello!
Shawn Spencer: We were turned around-- discombobulated! We... we just now realized we're in restricted waters.
Burton Guster: Just now! And we both have hepatitis!

by PaulThomas on Apr 14, 2010 4:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

Should I suggest that Kouz is a brilliant 3B, because of his low error rate? Or will a vein in your head burst?

by ozzman99 on Apr 14, 2010 5:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

```

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

by iglew on Apr 14, 2010 5:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

What killed me most was Rajai was on base both times on Sunday ahead of Barton

So, we had our best hitter laying an egg in an AB, AND our best runner on base. I know Rickey worked with Rajai during ST, but I am hoping they also worked on stealing 3rd. It’s a little harder, but teams aren’t expecting it, either. ESPECIALLY after someone’s just ripped off 2nd.

In any case, I really like this piece BBG. I hope it makes the SBN front page or something.

"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey

Everything is better with bacon.

by cuppingmaster on Apr 14, 2010 8:33 AM PDT reply actions  

Agreed

But actually 3rd base is actually considered easier to steal than 2nd.

by OnlybuyBeaneJerseys on Apr 14, 2010 9:01 AM PDT up reply actions  

How much easier

what are the CS rates?
I think even if it’s easier, the relative advantage of 3rd over 2nd base is less than the advantage of 2nd over 1st.
With a lower gain, you need a higher success rate to justify it.

by MobiusKlein on Apr 14, 2010 9:06 AM PDT up reply actions  

If it works, you didn't lose an out and accomplished your goal of moving a runner up

FWIW, I always thought conventional wisdom was that 3rd was harder to steal because the catcher has a shorter throw. I also think we might think it’s easier to steal because only really adept base-stealers try it.

"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey

Everything is better with bacon.

by cuppingmaster on Apr 14, 2010 9:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

Nah,

It’s because you can get a much bigger lead off of second. First base the fielder can plant themselves at the bag, can’t at second. And it’s harder for the pitcher to throw to the bag.

Leopold Bloom on why he loves Mr. Peter Gammons, his best buddy:
"Peter Gammons systematically ignored and/or ran down the A’s in the pages of Sports Illustrated and The Sporting News for a good ten year stretch in the late seventies and early to mid-eighties. Trust me, the c**ksucker hates our team."

by DMOAS on Apr 14, 2010 9:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

Thank you was just about to make this comment.

Also with the catcher throwing to 2nd the are already lined up for the throw vs 3rd, they need to pivot left to get a good clean throw and with the runner already having a bigger lead, produces more clean steals.

Judgment day is coming!

by Widowwolf on Apr 14, 2010 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

It's counter-intuitive but 3rd is easier

 I think the reason why less people steal 3rd is the gain from stealing 3rd is significantly less than the gain from stealing 2nd. The reason why only the best base-stealer’s do it, is because it requires a very high success rate for it to be worth it. And the old saying about never wanting to make the 1st and 3rd out at 2rd base.

by OnlybuyBeaneJerseys on Apr 14, 2010 12:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

Anyway your agrument is on the money

We should be stealing 3rd base more than bunting them over. Especially with Rajai on 2nd!

by OnlybuyBeaneJerseys on Apr 14, 2010 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

YES.

I’m all about the high-percentage steal because it does not automatically cost the team an out.

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

Rajai Davis isn't really a high-percentage basestealer

Shawn Spencer: Ahoy there! Um, yes. Right! My name is Shawn Spencer! This is my first mate Hummingbird Saltalamacchia!
Burton Guster: Hello!
Shawn Spencer: We were turned around-- discombobulated! We... we just now realized we're in restricted waters.
Burton Guster: Just now! And we both have hepatitis!

by PaulThomas on Apr 14, 2010 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

78 percent on the career isn't bad

Plus he is 5/5 so far this year. He might even improve on that career now that he has some regular playing time. Granted with increased attempts and the 100 number some crazy people on AN are throwing out there would obviously be a decrease. But 50-60 steals with regular playing time, having a fun spring training, I see Davis over the 80 percent mark this year.

by OnlybuyBeaneJerseys on Apr 14, 2010 3:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think the 5/5 is key this year

Like bunting, we can’t afford extra outs on the basepaths, but successful steals are awesome. It’s like adding power!

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 3:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

It's mostly negligible, but yeah, more beneficial than not

But don’t get excited about it. He’s just not hurting the team.

Leopold Bloom on why he loves Mr. Peter Gammons, his best buddy:
"Peter Gammons systematically ignored and/or ran down the A’s in the pages of Sports Illustrated and The Sporting News for a good ten year stretch in the late seventies and early to mid-eighties. Trust me, the c**ksucker hates our team."

by DMOAS on Apr 14, 2010 4:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

Is it 75? I thought 80...

…but yeah. Any lower than that and it’s a negative.

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 4:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

There's no set number

It varies based on the run-scoring environment. In 1968, stealing, well, 68% of the time was probably a net positive. In 1998, you didn’t have to make it 98% of the time, but it definitely had to be 75% or so.

With the advent of the post-rabbitball “post-steroid” era, it’s probably down to the low 70s now.

Shawn Spencer: Ahoy there! Um, yes. Right! My name is Shawn Spencer! This is my first mate Hummingbird Saltalamacchia!
Burton Guster: Hello!
Shawn Spencer: We were turned around-- discombobulated! We... we just now realized we're in restricted waters.
Burton Guster: Just now! And we both have hepatitis!

by PaulThomas on Apr 14, 2010 4:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

That is awesome.

Thanks…was totally wondering about this!

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 5:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

This
the reason why less people steal 3rd is the gain from stealing 3rd is significantly less than the gain from stealing 2nd

Events that would score a guy from 2B but not from 1B > events that would score a guy from 3B but not from 2B.

Events that create a double play with a guy on 1B but not with a guy on 2B > events that would create a double play with a guy on 2B but not with a guy on 3B.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

by iglew on Apr 14, 2010 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

Right, so you need your pitcher

to pitch out way low and outside so your catcher can spin cartwheels catching it and then be in the perfect position to throw to third.

by rrryanc on Apr 14, 2010 12:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

Awesome

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

He wasn't stealing

Bastard.

Leopold Bloom on why he loves Mr. Peter Gammons, his best buddy:
"Peter Gammons systematically ignored and/or ran down the A’s in the pages of Sports Illustrated and The Sporting News for a good ten year stretch in the late seventies and early to mid-eighties. Trust me, the c**ksucker hates our team."

by DMOAS on Apr 14, 2010 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

How did they figure that?

By that reckoning, it seems a runner thrown out on a delayed steal isn’t caught stealing.

Root for the Giants? Not even if they're playing al-Qaeda!

by Monday Fan on Apr 14, 2010 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'd think so too

But they figured he was trying to advance on the wild pitch, not the pitch itself. Stupid either way. You get caught during a play not batted into play, CS.

Leopold Bloom on why he loves Mr. Peter Gammons, his best buddy:
"Peter Gammons systematically ignored and/or ran down the A’s in the pages of Sports Illustrated and The Sporting News for a good ten year stretch in the late seventies and early to mid-eighties. Trust me, the c**ksucker hates our team."

by DMOAS on Apr 14, 2010 12:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

it wasn't a CS because

he wasn’t going to get a SB if he did reach 3rd. the pitcher would be given a WP instead. so if he can’t get a SB for reaching 3rd, why would he get a CS for failing to reach 3rd?

The Not-So-Casual Fan

by rktse on Apr 14, 2010 4:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

Personally?

I just think any attempt to move up when the ball isn’t in play is an attempt to steal the base. The circumstances around it to me are irrelevant, it’s still a risk. I’m not disputing the circumstances around it or why it wasn’t (per the rules at least). I’m just not a fan of the rule itself.

Leopold Bloom on why he loves Mr. Peter Gammons, his best buddy:
"Peter Gammons systematically ignored and/or ran down the A’s in the pages of Sports Illustrated and The Sporting News for a good ten year stretch in the late seventies and early to mid-eighties. Trust me, the c**ksucker hates our team."

by DMOAS on Apr 14, 2010 4:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

It depends heavily

On how determined the defense is in not letting you steal it. If they sacrifice a bit of their fielding positioning for it, it is much harder to steal than second base.

by elcroata on Apr 14, 2010 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

Thank you :-)

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 9:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

Run expectancy charts

I think those are an awesome way to analyze whether sacrificing helps or hurts. Does anybody have a link to one?

I remember seeing that sacrifice bunting almost never increases your expected runs in an inning, and usually decreases the amount of runs you expect to score by a fairly significant amount. However, there must be charts out there showing the chance of scoring AT LEAST one run, instead of total runs scored. I suspect there are extreme examples where sacrificing increases your chance of winning(such as late inning in a tie ballgame), but I have no evidence that is the case.

I would also like to know if a study has looked at run expectancy charts for teams with lots of power vs. teams with little power. Conventional baseball wisdom states that teams with little power need to “manufacture” more runs. Intuitively this makes sense. Bunting runners over is silly if the next guy has a decent percentage chance of a homer or even a double. However, a singles hitting team needs to string together hits (or walks). I don’t know if this has ever been looked at, but it would be very interesting. My suspicion is that the A’s have looked at this, and concluded that with the current team it actually is advantageous for them to sacrifice. Of course, that is pure blind optimism on my part.

by Henduland in Texas on Apr 14, 2010 8:34 AM PDT reply actions  

Runs Expectancy Matrix

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=runs+expectancy+matrix

Here’s Tangos from 99-02: http://www.tangotiger.net/RE9902.html

Anyway, long story short: The average number of runs scored DECREASES when you have the classic “sac bunt” situation, ie runner on 2nd an 0 out, and then go to a runner on 3rd, 1 out situation.

I AM VERY MUCH ENJOYING THE HITTING OF BASEBALLS AND SCORING OF RUNS. -mikev
only an ZOMG CENSORED WORD FAMILY SITE quotes himself. -mikev

by mikev on Apr 14, 2010 8:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

Agreed

It is obvious when you pool data from 1999-2002, the sacrifice bunt is going to hurt your team.

However, the teams in 1999-2002 were quite different from our 2010 A’s. The had lots of steroids and home runs. We do not. My questions is whether or not there is data showing if it is advantageous to sacrifice if your team does not hit home runs. Basically, if instead of pooling all the data together like the Tango study, you select “high power teams” and “low power teams” and create separate run expectancy matrices. My uneducated suspicion is that there is a difference, though it is feasible they look exactly the same.

by Henduland in Texas on Apr 14, 2010 9:03 AM PDT up reply actions  

good point about the steroid era

as well as the A’s “walks and HR” profile.

by OaklandSi on Apr 14, 2010 9:07 AM PDT up reply actions  

I consider a sacrifice bunt as opportunity for the next batter to succeed

I like it early in the year because if you a guy like Ryan Sweeney in that situation enough times and he continues to fail, well you know what you have in Ryan Sweeney fairly early in the season.

"I get nervous every fifth day," Braden said. "I figure the day that goes away is the day I saddle up behind the 7-Eleven desk."

by Jessse on Apr 14, 2010 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

No you don't

This is ludicrous. Hitters don’t hit differently because men are on different bases. They don’t even hit differently with runners on than with the bases empty.

Shawn Spencer: Ahoy there! Um, yes. Right! My name is Shawn Spencer! This is my first mate Hummingbird Saltalamacchia!
Burton Guster: Hello!
Shawn Spencer: We were turned around-- discombobulated! We... we just now realized we're in restricted waters.
Burton Guster: Just now! And we both have hepatitis!

by PaulThomas on Apr 14, 2010 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

They must hit differently with runners on than with bases empty

If the bases are loaded, the worst possible thing is a ground ball. A hitter might be thinking that getting the ball up will at least get one run and avoid a double play.

If there is a man on 3rd, a hitter will be thinking, get it to the right side of the field and we’re guaranteed a run.

Etc.

by Billy Frijoles on Apr 14, 2010 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

You don't think hitters get better pitches with the bases loaded?

The pitcher has to come in, might be wary to throw anything in the dirt, etc?

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

So pitchers are trying extra extra hard to throw strikes?

I AM VERY MUCH ENJOYING THE HITTING OF BASEBALLS AND SCORING OF RUNS. -mikev
only an ZOMG CENSORED WORD FAMILY SITE quotes himself. -mikev

by mikev on Apr 14, 2010 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

No, not at all

But I would think a runner on third warrants a thought about your in-the-dirt strikeout pitch.

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think what Paul is saying is that hitters don't change their approaches with men on.

Pitchers can and do, but hitters don’t.

Sundown dazzling day, gold through my eyes.
But my eyes, turned within, only see
starless and bible black.

by danmerqury on Apr 14, 2010 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

That makes sense.

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

Even more

they really don’t have that much control of the outcome regardless.

Leopold Bloom on why he loves Mr. Peter Gammons, his best buddy:
"Peter Gammons systematically ignored and/or ran down the A’s in the pages of Sports Illustrated and The Sporting News for a good ten year stretch in the late seventies and early to mid-eighties. Trust me, the c**ksucker hates our team."

by DMOAS on Apr 14, 2010 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

No, I'm not even saying that

As we noted a few days ago, hitters hit more balls to the right side when there’s a man on second and no outs than otherwise. That’s clearly a sign of a changed approach (although the change is very modest; only about a 5% increase in “good” balls in play).

It’s more that, to the extent that hitters change their approach with men on, they all do so in very similar ways. Result: it cancels out over any kind of meaningful sample.

Shawn Spencer: Ahoy there! Um, yes. Right! My name is Shawn Spencer! This is my first mate Hummingbird Saltalamacchia!
Burton Guster: Hello!
Shawn Spencer: We were turned around-- discombobulated! We... we just now realized we're in restricted waters.
Burton Guster: Just now! And we both have hepatitis!

by PaulThomas on Apr 14, 2010 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

I mean hitters don't hit differently than themselves

Hitters as a whole hit better with the bases loaded. But an individual hitter gets the same boost from having the bases loaded that every other hitter gets.

This is just a subspecies of clutch hitting, which has repeatedly been proven not to exist in any meaningful quantity.

Shawn Spencer: Ahoy there! Um, yes. Right! My name is Shawn Spencer! This is my first mate Hummingbird Saltalamacchia!
Burton Guster: Hello!
Shawn Spencer: We were turned around-- discombobulated! We... we just now realized we're in restricted waters.
Burton Guster: Just now! And we both have hepatitis!

by PaulThomas on Apr 14, 2010 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

Okay, makes sense.

So there IS a stat that hitters do hit better with bases loaded (though I’m sure that sac flies not counting as outs may give that a slight advantage), but overall, no one hitter gets a better boost than another.

I get it.

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

Just for reference:

Sac flies do count toward OBP. That fact, along with the fact that a walk creates a run (forcing pitchers to throw strikes at all costs), is why 2009 AL hitters had an Alfonso Soriano-like .295/.328/.459 batting line with the bases loaded last season.

Shawn Spencer: Ahoy there! Um, yes. Right! My name is Shawn Spencer! This is my first mate Hummingbird Saltalamacchia!
Burton Guster: Hello!
Shawn Spencer: We were turned around-- discombobulated! We... we just now realized we're in restricted waters.
Burton Guster: Just now! And we both have hepatitis!

by PaulThomas on Apr 14, 2010 4:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

Also a pitcher who loaded the bases is sucking

Or at least sucking more than is common.

Unless you just got a new pitcher when the bases got loaded, the pitcher in there let it happen, so is likely not doing great anyway. So it’s no surprise that they get hit harder.

by MobiusKlein on Apr 14, 2010 6:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well, yes, they often do hit differently with runners on compared to the bases empty

Ziegler himself said as much in the interview I did with him when he said hitters often look to yank the ball against him when there’s nobody on, trying to get a rally started, vs. being more likely to be patient or try to hit to the right side and advance a runner who’s on.

The way some hitters approach their ABs most certainly does change at times based on whether or not someone’s on.

Last of the Ninth - Photography

by Flashfire on Apr 14, 2010 3:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

Okay help me out here for a sec

In this table

http://www.tangotiger.net/RE9902score.html

The data are grouped by number of runs scored for each base-out situation. If I’m reading it right, it says if you have a guy on 2nd and 0 outs, the 1-run RE is .368. At 1 out and runner on 3rd, that RE is .478.

Now, I don’t like the bunt either, but I’m not sure how I am supposed to interpret these numbers. I get that it’s only one run, but the chances of scoring 0 runs only decreases to .338 from .368. So, if you ran this play 100 times, on average, you would NOT score only one run only 3 more times. I see why you don’t want to give up outs, but I don’t see why bunting itself is terrible, just based on these numbers.

Does that make sense? Do you see what I’m getting at?

"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey

Everything is better with bacon.

by cuppingmaster on Apr 14, 2010 9:07 AM PDT up reply actions  

Sounds right.

Which kinda goes along with the fact that you really shouldn’t sac bunt unless it’s a leadoff double in the 9th inning and you only need to score 1 run to win I mean, maybe it’s just me but I’d MUCH rather score several runs instead of one run.

I AM VERY MUCH ENJOYING THE HITTING OF BASEBALLS AND SCORING OF RUNS. -mikev
only an ZOMG CENSORED WORD FAMILY SITE quotes himself. -mikev

by mikev on Apr 14, 2010 9:14 AM PDT up reply actions  

But would you rather score 1 run 5 times in a game

which is overall, more likely, or 2+ runs in only a couple innings? The other thing that’s clear from that chart is that it’s a lot easier to score one run in an inning than multiple.

I want the big inning, too, but given our dearth of power, I’m not sure how realistic it is.

"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey

Everything is better with bacon.

by cuppingmaster on Apr 14, 2010 9:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

You just said it yourself.

Given our dearth of power, why would you want to lessen the chance at scoring multiple runs?

I AM VERY MUCH ENJOYING THE HITTING OF BASEBALLS AND SCORING OF RUNS. -mikev
only an ZOMG CENSORED WORD FAMILY SITE quotes himself. -mikev

by mikev on Apr 14, 2010 9:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

Right, but if we have no power

How are we supposed to score multiple runs when we have a bunch of singles hitters?

"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey

Everything is better with bacon.

by cuppingmaster on Apr 14, 2010 9:44 AM PDT up reply actions  

That's why we need two new matricies of power/no power.

It might be able to answer this question, or at least give us a clearer picture.

by LoneStranger on Apr 14, 2010 9:47 AM PDT up reply actions  

Even though I'm loving this season so far

We really don’t have either of the two general ideas in scoring runs: a bunch of guys with high OBP and a couple guys with high SLG, or a bunch of guys with low SLG and high OBP (and, necessarily a higher BA). Which is why the stat last night about leading the league in runs was so unexpected (and short-lived, we clearly jinxed it!)

"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey

Everything is better with bacon.

by cuppingmaster on Apr 14, 2010 10:06 AM PDT up reply actions  

By hitting a bunch of singles?

I AM VERY MUCH ENJOYING THE HITTING OF BASEBALLS AND SCORING OF RUNS. -mikev
only an ZOMG CENSORED WORD FAMILY SITE quotes himself. -mikev

by mikev on Apr 14, 2010 10:00 AM PDT up reply actions  

(see above)

"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey

Everything is better with bacon.

by cuppingmaster on Apr 14, 2010 10:06 AM PDT up reply actions  

See above what?

My answer to your question:

How are we supposed to score multiple runs when we have a bunch of singles hitters?

was this:

By hitting a bunch of singles?

That seems pretty obvious.

I AM VERY MUCH ENJOYING THE HITTING OF BASEBALLS AND SCORING OF RUNS. -mikev
only an ZOMG CENSORED WORD FAMILY SITE quotes himself. -mikev

by mikev on Apr 14, 2010 10:09 AM PDT up reply actions  

What I replied to LoneStranger

"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey

Everything is better with bacon.

by cuppingmaster on Apr 14, 2010 10:10 AM PDT up reply actions  

Eh

I don’t think the A’s are THAT much of a singles-hitting team. 31.6% of their 76 hits so far have been for extra bases (18 doubles, 6 home runs). In the AL, that puts them 8th out of the 14 teams.

TOR is first with an unsustainable 56.9% (37 XBH of their 65 total) while SEA is last at 26.6% (17 XBH of their 64 total). This is all subject to much fluctuation though, since we’re only talking about being a week and a half into the season.

More importantly, the A’s are 6th in OBP so far at .335 thanks to their 37 walks, which is 3rd in the AL behind NYY (40) and DET (39). Their SLG is already just 11th, though.

Last of the Ninth - Photography

by Flashfire on Apr 14, 2010 10:11 AM PDT up reply actions  

But if you use a larger sample and look at last year's team

And subtract Cust out and add some estimation for what is left of Chavez, you have a team with very little power.

Unless somebody provides evidence to reject the hypothesis that sacrificing is actually useful when you hit very few home runs, I am going to neither root either for or against sacrificing. I’ll actually give a slight edge to supporting as the same regime that took away small ball from looking at real data is basically the same that added it back years later.

by Henduland in Texas on Apr 14, 2010 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions  

Oh, I'm not disputing that

Just saying the A’s aren’t purely a singles team. I’m not suggesting anyone believes that if the A’s do anything it’s only going to be a single nearly every time. No question they’re short on overall power.

Last of the Ninth - Photography

by Flashfire on Apr 14, 2010 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

Because singles + walks + not giving up outs

= multiple runs

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

not reading the charts

but my gut tells me that with a runner on 2nd only, swing away with any batter other than a pitcher. Bunt when its 1st and second no outs in the ninth.

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury

by Future Ed on Apr 14, 2010 9:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

Those are not RE - they are probabilities

to get it the run expectancy you need to multiply by runs scored: (counting 5+ as exactly 5 )
1 out, 3rd base
0 * 0.338 + 1 * 0.478 + 2 * 0.106 + 3 * 0.045 + 4 * 0.018 + 5 * 0.014 = 0.967
0 outs, 2nd base
0 * 0.368 + 1 * 0.348 + 2 * 0.142 + 3 * 0.076 + 4 * 0.035 + 5 * 0.03 = 1.15

by MobiusKlein on Apr 14, 2010 9:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

More carefully,

if you are in a tie game, 9th inning, you want to minimize the chance of zero runs.
In that case, the advantage is still fairly small (3/100) as you noted. And even then, I don’t know that the probabilities for early innings will match 9th inning tie probabilities; defenses and pitchers will counter various strategies.

by MobiusKlein on Apr 14, 2010 9:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I mis-spoke... run probabilities is a more accurate term

But thanks for the conversions.

"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey

Everything is better with bacon.

by cuppingmaster on Apr 14, 2010 9:31 AM PDT up reply actions  

Right, # of Runs Decreases

But the point is, that the chance of scoring ONE run increases, right?

That being said, I still don’t understand why you would even do a sacrifice when you can bunt and not sacrifice (and at least give yourself a chance for a base hit). A non-sacrifice bunt vs. a sacrifice bunt would still move the runner over, no?

by Billy Frijoles on Apr 14, 2010 11:47 AM PDT up reply actions  

And you usually have to be fast

AND a good bunter…not a trait the A’s have shown so far.

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

The only time I am ok with the sacrifice...

Is when the hitter is terrible or its late in a game and 1 run means as much as 10 runs (ie tie game in the bottom of the 9th).

The fact is, our team is not adept at bunting nor getting runners at third home when there are less than 2 outs. So I have not been a fan of most of our early bunting attempts.

by DrDoom on Apr 14, 2010 8:46 AM PDT reply actions  

Agreed

And this:


The fact is, our team is not adept at bunting nor getting runners at third home when there are less than 2 outs. So I have not been a fan of most of our early bunting attempts.

I’m doing the research for Friday’s post, but I’m pretty sure they’ve failed much more often that not to get a runner home with less than 2 outs.

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 9:37 AM PDT up reply actions  

Bunting is almost as silly as an IBB

Shouldn’t these things be in the manager’s contract ?

by OPS2000 on Apr 14, 2010 8:53 AM PDT reply actions  

Bunting is almost always pointless

Bunting in first inning is something I’m so opposed to that I can’t express it in family-friendly words.

by Manstein on Apr 14, 2010 9:04 AM PDT reply actions  

I can:

FIRE GEREN NOW!

"Cheese is the fruit juice nature intended."- The Reverend Billy Lard

by Gaijin_Suketto on Apr 14, 2010 9:27 AM PDT up reply actions  

The problem with the sac. bunt is that it gives away the certainty (the out) for the speculative (the run).

That’s not a good trade in nearly every walk of life.

JJ Martin
The best way to catch a knuckleball is to wait until the ball stops rolling and then pick it up. ~Bob Uecker

by JJ Martin on Apr 14, 2010 9:08 AM PDT reply actions  

Bunts are certainly not appropriate for ALL styles of play...

We certainly won’t see the Phillies or Cardinals dropping bunts every game with stacked lineups where they can expect big, crooked numbers on a regular basis.

But I think the bunt certainly deserves more credit than what you’ve given it here…
I love the bunt. I feel like there’s no better show of sportsmanship than sacrificing yourself so Rajai can be on 3rd with one out. Because you’re right, his probability of scoring becomes almost automatic at that point.

I understand that there are only 27 outs in a game, and that’s not a lot. However, I think they should all be used and have the most value extracted from them as possible. In an ideal world, you’re right. A bunt is not as effective as a double off the wall. But, in the real world, teams such as the A’s don’t have a Ryan Howard, Albert Pujols, or Prince Fielder they can almost expect to do something crazy in that situation.

A bunt to move a runner to third is a hell of a lot more valuable than a popup to the second baseman, a groundout to the pitcher, or a screaming line drive caught by an infielder, freezing said runner at second base. The A’s are a team that is going to require small ball, creativity, and “ground attack”. Embrace the bunt, if the A’s are going to keep winning, the bunt will need to be their best friend.

Where's Perry?

by Bballpitcher2 on Apr 14, 2010 9:39 AM PDT reply actions  

"27 outs" is actually imprecise...

It’s worse than that. The more accurate assessment is that there are 3 outs, because baseball is played in innings. When people hear that, “There are only 27 outs in a game”, I think a lot of them dismiss the calculation because at a gut level, 27 is a much larger number than the number of runs scored in any given game. So they go, “Well, if there are 27 outs, then if I trade outs for runs I should be in good shape.”

That’s not what happens in the game, though. In a bunt situation, you only have 3 outs to play with. Probably less. And giving away that one out for a slight increase in the chance to score a run is almost always a bad trade.

The funny thing here is that the argument you are using is exactly the argument against bunting. Just as there are a large number of possibilities that could happen in the at-bat which are negative, there are a large number of positive possibilities as well. That’s the nature of opportunity cost. An accurate assessment of all possibilities (which is essentially what a Runs Expectancy Matrix is) will show that with all things considered, it’s a bad trade. You can do too much with that “out” that is better than you can expect with the bunt. Not only that, but the chance to lay down a successful bunt is not 100%. You can fail at that, which lowers the value of the attempt even more.

by jermtse on Apr 14, 2010 10:06 AM PDT up reply actions  

Excellent points

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 10:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

There's only 5 fouls before you're out of a BB game too,

but I’d be pretty disappointed in my defensive-oriented team coming off the floor with only two fouls apiece. Makes no sense to foul if you’re going to score 100 points regardless; makes lot of sense to do it if your best case offense is going to net you 65 instead.

The numbers will tell you if you have 9 Jack Cust’s on your team, you will score more runs than if you have 9 Kurt Suzuki’s on your team. But Jack is in AAA, so there must be more to it than just the numbers.

by BoyHowdee on Apr 14, 2010 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

Actually, In the NBA a player is disqualified AFTER their 6th personal foul.

Judgment day is coming!

by Widowwolf on Apr 14, 2010 10:27 AM PDT up reply actions  

I don't understand

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury

by Future Ed on Apr 14, 2010 10:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

Really, teams only have 2 outs to work with

Because that third out means the fun is over.

www.zekeishungry.com

by thejd44 on Apr 14, 2010 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

Also good point

But they still get a chance to hit with 2 outs. That’s one more chance to drive runs in

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 12:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

yeah, that makes no sense

if you want to think about it like that, they get to hit with no outs, one out, and two outs, so that’s still 3 outs to work with.

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones."
-BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Apr 14, 2010 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

This is the very thing I'm arguing against, though
I feel like there’s no better show of sportsmanship than sacrificing yourself so Rajai can be on 3rd with one out. Because you’re right, his probability of scoring becomes almost automatic at that point.

At least for this team, it’s not automatic. Out of eight games’ worth of chances, I would say that the A’s got the runner home from third with less than two outs only a couple of times. Their offense is NOT one that has hitters who can drive the ball to score the run; why would we expect them to be automatic? As you pointed out, anything can happen in at at-bat, but when a player bunts, he is GIVING the other team an out, rather than putting the ball in play, hitting a screaming line drive that is not caught; in other words, scoring the run without giving up an out.

Crooked numbers come for a weak offensive team when singles and walks are mixed together in the same inning WITHOUT giving up outs. They don’t need a stacked lineup to put up crooked numbers, but they CAN’T be giving up outs.

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 10:19 AM PDT up reply actions  

This is just contradicting yourself now...

The A’s are having a real difficult time scoring from 3B, I understand that…Which means they are having an extremely difficult time scoring runners that are on 2B…

We’re not a very good hitting team…let’s be honest…they score in spurts…

Look, bunting in the 1st inning isn’t exactly the smartest move, I agree with that. And if Raj is on 2B and Barton is up, swing away, try to get the hit because more likely than not, he’s going to make contact.

But to say that the bunt is useless is…well, I can’t think of a word…

But you bunt based on situations. If we’re tied at 0-0 or 1-1 or even just down 1 and its a pitchers duel, I’m sorry, I’m laying down that bunt. Obviously the other team is having a difficult time to score, and if I can tie the game or take the lead, I’m going to do that, and rely on my pitching to hold off the opponent.

My appologies for my rambling

by mills16 on Apr 14, 2010 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions  

Right...

Which means they are having an extremely difficult time scoring runners that are on 2B…

Which means that having MORE chances to do it is better than fewer chances. You only have 3 outs in an inning to work with; why would you give one of those away?

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 11:46 AM PDT up reply actions  

Because we're a contact hitting team

If you can get a runner over to 3rd with less than 2 outs, I’d rather take my chances of scoring that run, even if it means a ground out or a Sac Fly. Granted it all depends on who’s coming up to bat and the situation

by mills16 on Apr 14, 2010 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think you are confusing "contact hitting team"

with the A’s “crappy hitting team.” BBG’s point still stands don’t give up outs.

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury

by Future Ed on Apr 14, 2010 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

They're Not A Power Team

They’re not going to hit the HRs…they don’t hit for high averages, they have to MANUFACTURE runs…and that is what it is doing…

They’d be bunting a guy to 3B, which would allow the next batter, to make contact, even an out, to score the run

by mills16 on Apr 14, 2010 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

Unfortunately,

“manufacturing runs” doesn’t work in the long run. Giving away outs is the worst thing a poor offense can do, because they need every single and every walk they can scratch out, from every batter. They don’t have outs to waste.

And in addition, see below: In 18 chances this season, the A’s have scored only 8 of the runs from third. They aren’t even good at making contact. They NEED those extra chances to try to get hits.

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

I know what you're saying and I agree with it as a way of playing statistically-sound baseball

But the fact is, we don’t have a statistically-sound offense. We have a decently high OBPing team, but no one with either a high SLG or high average. Like you said

They aren’t even good at making contact. They NEED those extra chances to try to get hits.

Our BA is bound to be poor, so how can we rely on guys who take nearly as many walks as they make base hits?

I started reading this article this morning and I was like “f the bunt” but now I am really questioning this reasoning in light of the fact our offense is basically just really lucky right now, but in general isn’t so good long-term. Obviously, longer “crooked number” innings are better, but given the choice between not scoring and scoring one run, I am inclined to say one run.

"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey

Everything is better with bacon.

by cuppingmaster on Apr 14, 2010 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

It's the wrong choice, though

Not scoring vs. scoring one run isn’t the choice.

It’s scoring MORE than one run vs. scoring just one run (or not at all).

Even when the sac bunt WORKS, the A’s have only scored the runner 8 out of 18 times this year. They can’t score that one run from third; they have failed at it just about in every single game they have played so far. With such a poor BA, you HAVE to give them all 27 outs to work with. If you give up 2-3 outs to sac bunts to a run they aren’t driving in anyway, you increase their poor BA by even a little bit and it’s worth it.

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 12:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

That last sentence sucks

If you DON’T give up 2-3 outs to sac bunts to a run they aren’t driving in anyway, you increase their poor BA by even a little bit and it’s worth it.

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 12:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

So, it's SSS..

And I’m not really sure this is measuring what I want it to, but here goes:

You said that in 8/18 PA we scored a runner in sacrifice situations. Well, we’ve had 96 total PA with RISP and have scored 34 runs. If you take the total, subtract out your situation, then you have 26 R/76 PA.

8/18 = .4444
26/78 = .3333

It’s no landslide, but there is an NSS difference between the two. Obviously, this may and probably will even out over time. Also, I can’t take into account the “opportunity cost” by of the sacrifice.

Again, I’m not quibbling with your approach in general. I’m just trying to reconcile how, even with all 27 outs, considering our offense, we are going to maximize our runs.

"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey

Everything is better with bacon.

by cuppingmaster on Apr 14, 2010 1:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

I honestly don't know how to figure it out to the exact numbers

but all of the studies I have read on it have said that the sac bunt will cost a team in overall runs. We can look at every situation and judge if it worked to score a run in that particular play, but overall, the team is losing runs by utilizing the sac bunt. Same kind of thing as the steal. If you don’t AT LEAST steal about 80% of the time successfully, it’s better if you NEVER steal, with the amount of outs you give up on the bases.

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

Say what?

You’re comparing a situation, post-bunt, which is invariably with fewer than two outs, to a situation which is frequently a two-out one.

No shit: the team scores more often when there’s a runner on third and less than two outs than in the rest of RISP situations. Shocking. Even if these sample sizes weren’t ludicrously small, this doesn’t tell us anything we didn’t already know.

Shawn Spencer: Ahoy there! Um, yes. Right! My name is Shawn Spencer! This is my first mate Hummingbird Saltalamacchia!
Burton Guster: Hello!
Shawn Spencer: We were turned around-- discombobulated! We... we just now realized we're in restricted waters.
Burton Guster: Just now! And we both have hepatitis!

by PaulThomas on Apr 14, 2010 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah

In a pitchers duel you DON’T give up an out. You’re already in a position where bringing in the run and getting hits is hard enough. Don’t do yourself a disservice by making things more difficult by giving away a free out. Most hits will bring in a run from second as they will from third. (Not all, but most). Play the odds that the hit you’re looking for with that unsac’ed out will do that or that the next out made will somehow move the runner over while trying to get a hit.

Leopold Bloom on why he loves Mr. Peter Gammons, his best buddy:
"Peter Gammons systematically ignored and/or ran down the A’s in the pages of Sports Illustrated and The Sporting News for a good ten year stretch in the late seventies and early to mid-eighties. Trust me, the c**ksucker hates our team."

by DMOAS on Apr 14, 2010 11:47 AM PDT up reply actions  

If we're in a pitchers duel

and we’re not getting many hits, then a fly ball or even a ground ball to the middle of the field should usually get a run in…

But again, it all depends on the situation and who is coming to bat after the player that would be laying down the sacrifice

by mills16 on Apr 14, 2010 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

Is the hangup here really about bunting someone from second to third, or bunting at all?

The guy at second is already in scoring position so there’s little reason to bunt him up a base. My image of a better time for a bunt is to move someone INTO scoring position in hope of getting that one hit to score him, ie: from first to second.

Last of the Ninth - Photography

by Flashfire on Apr 14, 2010 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

I mean, isn't the reasoning behind 2nd to 3rd to score on an SF?

"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey

Everything is better with bacon.

by cuppingmaster on Apr 14, 2010 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

Sure, but you could also score him on a grounder

In which case, let’s say you have someone at second after a leadoff double, or a single and a stolen base. Whatever works. In theory, two ground ball outs alone will score him anyway unless the defense is playing to cut the run off at the plate. Then, that’s only if the situation calls for it.

Last year the A’s hit 54 sacrifice flies, second in the AL. That’s one every 3 games, so the odds of being in a situation where you bunt someone to third and get that sac fly probably aren’t all that great. I’d guess the majority of their sac flies came without using the sac bunt to get the guy to third anyway.

In 2008 the A’s were last in the AL in sac flies with 35, or one every 4.6 games. The year before they had 56, good for third. 56 more in 2006, second in the AL again. It looks like it’s going to fluctuate a lot depending on the types of hitters they have up, especially in the situations with someone on third.

I don’t particularly care for the idea of giving up an out to advance someone who’s already in scoring position. Chances are a hit scores him as it is, especially if the A’s have a faster, more aggressive team. Give up the out and you still need a hit to score him, but sure – you do have a couple other options that then open up without it having to be a hit. Still, with someone at second there’s a decent chance you can advance him anyway if you hit a ground ball and who knows? It might get through for a hit.

Last of the Ninth - Photography

by Flashfire on Apr 14, 2010 12:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

I agree

But this also depends on the situation…if it’s no out with a runner on 2nd and a good, contact hitter up, yeah, I’m not bunting either…

look, all I’m saying is there are times where situations call for the bunt…but people seem to think that bunting, no matter the situation, is stupid

by mills16 on Apr 14, 2010 12:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

Trust me, I agree with you more than them

I think the sac bunt definitely has its place. I would never throw it out entirely.

The question is when to use it, and with whom.

Last of the Ninth - Photography

by Flashfire on Apr 14, 2010 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

Absolutely

And my problem is that my posts havent been that clear as to getting that point across…I guess that’s what happens when your trying to hide AN conversations while at work and trying not to get caught

by mills16 on Apr 14, 2010 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not that this SSS means anything...

but in 18 chances so far, the A’s only have 4 sac flies, and one was ALMOST an out at home. :-)

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 12:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

I agree

I just didn’t get into that portion..I’m trying to type as fast as I can while getting work done as well..ha

But yes, if there’s a runner on 1B, and we have a guy, like Barton who is coming up that can actually hit baseballs, to have that runner at 2B when he’s up at bat…

But then again…that’s just giving up an out, so maybe taking the chance of grounding into a DP would be better, which the A’s do a nice job with

by mills16 on Apr 14, 2010 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

If I'm bunting

Which I’m not a huge fan of, I’d definitely be more willing to go 1st to 2nd than 2nd to 3rd.

Leopold Bloom on why he loves Mr. Peter Gammons, his best buddy:
"Peter Gammons systematically ignored and/or ran down the A’s in the pages of Sports Illustrated and The Sporting News for a good ten year stretch in the late seventies and early to mid-eighties. Trust me, the c**ksucker hates our team."

by DMOAS on Apr 14, 2010 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

Me too

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 12:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

You can't just assume hits are going to happen.

Crooken numbers, by singles, or by dingers, are not easy to come by. ESPECIALLY with a lineup like the A’s have. It is absurd to assume they will score more runs without the use of a crafty bunt here or there.

Crooked numbers do not come for a weak offensive team because of singles. A weak offensive team means singles don’t always come. You have to find other ways to score. If singles came often, that means batting averages would be high, and therefore not a weak offensive team. I see absolutely zero value in throwing out the bunt. I’m not saying you have to bunt every single time there are runners on with no outs, but in certain situations, on games you’re struggling to get runs around, sometimes the bunt can be the right spark to get that run in.

Where's Perry?

by Bballpitcher2 on Apr 14, 2010 12:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

"crafty bunt"

is one thing. All six or seven sac bunts by the A’s have not been crafty. They have been straight, easy, give-myself-up bunts right back to the pitcher to give away an out. With the horrible lineup that the A’s have, they CAN’T do that. They need every single at-bat to try to hit the ball, and that probably still won’t be enough.

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 12:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

And at least once, the bunt has been bad enough...

…(or maybe the pitcher fortunate enough to make it work) that the lead runner was forced at second anyway.

Last of the Ninth - Photography

by Flashfire on Apr 14, 2010 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yep

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 12:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

I get so angry when that happens!

If a player ever pulled that rock with me as a manager, I’d sentence him to three hours in the Clockwork Orange room with Tom Emanski videos!

"Cheese is the fruit juice nature intended."- The Reverend Billy Lard

by Gaijin_Suketto on Apr 14, 2010 4:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

There's absolutely nothing "crafty" about an intentional sacrifice bunt

And if you can’t assume you’re going to get a hit why the hell are you wasting an AB on a bunt crafty or otherwise? We’re not even talking about crooked numbers. We’re talking about scoring runs.

Leopold Bloom on why he loves Mr. Peter Gammons, his best buddy:
"Peter Gammons systematically ignored and/or ran down the A’s in the pages of Sports Illustrated and The Sporting News for a good ten year stretch in the late seventies and early to mid-eighties. Trust me, the c**ksucker hates our team."

by DMOAS on Apr 14, 2010 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think she is referring to

“Crafty” being not a sacrifice bunt.

On a sac bunt, you square up the moment the pitcher is in his windup.

A “crafty” bunt I am assuming means squaring up later, as in, when you try to bunt for a base hit. At least it surprises the defense and keeps them honest.

by Billy Frijoles on Apr 14, 2010 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

And that goes back to mixing up the bunts with swinging away, etc

Something the A’s are NOT doing. Every bunt they have laid down is predictable, and an easy out for the defense.

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

But yes, makes sense :-)

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

Exactly what I was thinking and wanted to write...

But I couldn’t have said it any better…great job…

by mills16 on Apr 14, 2010 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions  

This is wrong
A bunt to move a runner to third is a hell of a lot more valuable than a popup to the second baseman, a groundout to the pitcher, or a screaming line drive caught by an infielder, freezing said runner at second base. The A’s are a team that is going to require small ball, creativity, and "ground attack". Embrace the bunt, if the A’s are going to keep winning, the bunt will need to be their best friend.

All the options you mention are done with at least the possibility of getting the runner over, scoring the runner, or otherwise getting on base. A bunt only gives you the possibility (without guarantee) of moving the runner over. Most hits will score the runner from second whether he’s moved to third or not.

Leopold Bloom on why he loves Mr. Peter Gammons, his best buddy:
"Peter Gammons systematically ignored and/or ran down the A’s in the pages of Sports Illustrated and The Sporting News for a good ten year stretch in the late seventies and early to mid-eighties. Trust me, the c**ksucker hates our team."

by DMOAS on Apr 14, 2010 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

If Fox is on 2B

are all hits going to score him, especially if they’re playing the Mariners and the arms that they have out there?

by mills16 on Apr 14, 2010 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

not all hits to the outfield are going to score every runner

We can make up scenarios all day that could or couldn’t score runs. The point of BBGs fine post is:What gives the A’s the best chance of scoring. SHe claims, and the data backs up, its not bunting.

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury

by Future Ed on Apr 14, 2010 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

Pinch run

If you’re really that worried. At least then you’re not giving away an out and you’re improving your offense and defense too.

Leopold Bloom on why he loves Mr. Peter Gammons, his best buddy:
"Peter Gammons systematically ignored and/or ran down the A’s in the pages of Sports Illustrated and The Sporting News for a good ten year stretch in the late seventies and early to mid-eighties. Trust me, the c**ksucker hates our team."

by DMOAS on Apr 14, 2010 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

Also a popup

is just a possible consequence of swinging away. There is a greater possibility of a hit if you swing away.

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury

by Future Ed on Apr 14, 2010 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

Exactly

Leopold Bloom on why he loves Mr. Peter Gammons, his best buddy:
"Peter Gammons systematically ignored and/or ran down the A’s in the pages of Sports Illustrated and The Sporting News for a good ten year stretch in the late seventies and early to mid-eighties. Trust me, the c**ksucker hates our team."

by DMOAS on Apr 14, 2010 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

Indeed

Sometimes the attempt to bunt the runner over results in a popup.

Root for the Giants? Not even if they're playing al-Qaeda!

by Monday Fan on Apr 14, 2010 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

If the #2 hitter is going to bunt a lot,

then can we please not bat Barton second?

"Cheese is the fruit juice nature intended."- The Reverend Billy Lard

by Gaijin_Suketto on Apr 14, 2010 9:46 AM PDT reply actions  

The batting order is really dumb right now

We can’t afford to keep a “familiar” lineup if we are going to be so powerless, we need to constantly be going with the hot hand:

Davis
Pennington
Barton
Ellis/Rosales
Kouzmanoff
Sweeney
Suzuki
Buck
Chavez

is the lineup we can use today that will win us more games, bottom line.

by PL78 on Apr 14, 2010 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

In theory I agree

Yet in practice we are top 3 in the AL in runs scored, we would be on top if not for yesterdays egg. We are playing classic Angels 05-08 baseball, and in a winnable division like the West, its a proven technique that works.

I definitely agree that the team’s on fire best hitter should never bunt (in our case, Barton) but the Angels for the most part of last decade, proved that manufacturing runs is a very valid way to win games. You might not have the best pythag W-L and will most likely get destroyed in the playoffs if your div is particularly weak, but you still win games and in a transitional year like we are in, I can’t think of a better way to do things.

by PL78 on Apr 14, 2010 10:06 AM PDT reply actions  

I would argue that the A's would have scored MORE runs had they not attempted a bunt

They would have had more runners on base, and more runs coming home.

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

Sweeney, Kouzmanoff and Suzuki

Have hit into 8 double plays in 9 games, do you really want to give them more chances to do so? I’d rather take whatever we can get.

While I have you here, is there any way to get that book without paying an arm and a leg? $44 is the cheapest on amazon and I want to read it, bad!

by PL78 on Apr 14, 2010 10:23 AM PDT up reply actions  

It used to be $250...I was SHOCKED to see it at $44!

It’s my favorite baseball book of all time, hands down.

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 10:31 AM PDT up reply actions  

Please, please, please don't use our season runs scored for anything.

It’s meaningless. Sure, it’s fun to point out and go “hey!”, but it’s not good for anything further than that. We don’t have a good offense. In the span of 9 games, any team can be the leader in runs scored.

Sundown dazzling day, gold through my eyes.
But my eyes, turned within, only see
starless and bible black.

by danmerqury on Apr 14, 2010 10:52 AM PDT up reply actions  

Im more concerned with our roster

Our roster right now contains the names Buck, Patterson, Fox, Chavez, Ramirez and Gaudin.

When it contains the names Crisp, Cust, Powell, Weurtz and Devine we won’t be losing games like we did last night, bottom line.

by PL78 on Apr 14, 2010 10:09 AM PDT reply actions  

And yes, yes, yes
Our roster right now contains the names Buck, Patterson, Fox, Chavez, Ramirez and Gaudin.

Bunting seems moot, really, when you have that offense.

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

+1,000,000

The only time I would bunt is bottom of 9 or extra innings with a runner on second and no outs as long as there are no auto-outs coming up after you bunt.

Barton bunting was total stupidity as pointed out by others here. Same with Rosales.

What a waste of a hot bat(s)

by Trainman on Apr 14, 2010 10:26 AM PDT up reply actions  

How about "we are full of mediocre hitters and should try to get ANY runner home"?

We don’t have anyone scary (except Barton, who is just walking a ton and hitting singles) its not like we can try for another hit because Pujols is coming up. No, if we have Raj on 2nd, we should try and get him to 3rd at ANY time because, well, look who’s up next: another defensive whiz who’s average with the bat.

by PL78 on Apr 14, 2010 10:31 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yes, but you forget that even WHEN they get Rajai to third, they still can't score him!

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 10:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

Better to have two chances to get a hit

than to depend on one of our players to hit a deep fly ball!

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 10:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

Link to show how many times Raj has been stuck on 3rd this year?

Or any runners stuck on 3rd for that matter?

I cant provide any stats, but I feel like our huge flops in getting runners over have come exclusively from Jake Fox.

by PL78 on Apr 14, 2010 10:33 AM PDT up reply actions  

Last night. Rosales went to 2nd on an error. nobody out.

Buck bunted him over to 3rd.. 1 down, Rosales at third.

Pennington flied out to short LF. 2 down

Rajai grounded out to 2B. Inning over.

I AM VERY MUCH ENJOYING THE HITTING OF BASEBALLS AND SCORING OF RUNS. -mikev
only an ZOMG CENSORED WORD FAMILY SITE quotes himself. -mikev

by mikev on Apr 14, 2010 10:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

But not RAJAI!!!!!!!!!!!111!!!!!!!!

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury

by Future Ed on Apr 14, 2010 10:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

ZOMG I KNOW

I AM VERY MUCH ENJOYING THE HITTING OF BASEBALLS AND SCORING OF RUNS. -mikev
only an ZOMG CENSORED WORD FAMILY SITE quotes himself. -mikev

by mikev on Apr 14, 2010 10:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

In my defense, you DID ask :-)

Game #1: 6th inning

Rajai at 3rd, one out.
Result: Sweeney single, run scores.

Game #2: 9th inning

Bases loaded, one out.
Result: Rajai K’s, Barton flies out. Run does not score.

Game #3: 1st inning

Rajai at 3rd, one out.
Result: Sweeney sac fly, run scores.

Game #3: 5th inning

Bases loaded, one out.
Result: Barton sac fly, run scores.

Game #4: 3rd inning

Rajai at 3rd, one out.
Result: Sweeney double, run scores
Barton at 3rd, one out.
Result: Suzuki K’s, Chavez grounds out. Run does not score.

Game #4: 6th inning

Pennington at 3rd, one out.
Result: Rajai K’s. Run does not score. (Run later scores on 2-out hit)

Game #4: 8th inning

Buck at 3rd, none out.
Result: Rajai pops out. Run does not score. (Run later scores on 1-out hit)

Game #5: 1st inning

Kouzmanoff at 3rd, one out.
Result: Chavez grounds out, run scores.

Game #5: 5th inning

Barton at 3rd, one out.
Result: Kouzmanoff ground out, run scores.

Game #5: 6th inning

Buck at 3rd, one out.
Result: Sweeney groundout, Buck thrown out at home. Run does not score.

Game #6: 7th inning

Chavez at 3rd, one out.
Result: Buck groundout, run scores.

Game #6: 8th inning

Barton at 3rd, one out.
Result: Kouzmanoff ground out, run scores.

Game #7: 1st inning

Rajai on 3rd, one out
Result: Sweeney ground out, run does not score.

Game #7: 7th inning

Sweeney on 3rd, none out.
Result: Ellis double, run scores.
Kouzmanoff on third, none out.
Result: Fox strikes out, run does not score. (Run later scores on 1-out hit)

Game #7: 8th inning

Rajai on third, one out.
Result: Sweeney caught stealing, run does not score. (Run later scores on 2-out error)

Game #8: 4th inning

Rajai on third, one out.
Result: Sweeney walk, Kouzmanoff sac fly, run scores.

Game #8: 7th inning

Kouzmanoff at 3rd, one out.
Result: Jake Fox pops up. Run does not score. (Run later scores on 2-out hit)

Game #9: 5th inning

Rosales at 3rd, one out.
Result: Pennington shallow fly, run does not score.

From my count, that’s 18 chances, and TEN FULL TIMES they did not score the run. All of those bunts used to get the runners to third base with less than two outs? Absolutely wasted. Might as well have those at-bats back; at least they had a chance to put the ball in play somewhere.

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Awesome work!
So its 2/6 times Raj has been stranded at 3B.

by PL78 on Apr 14, 2010 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

I blame small sample size

Of course I remember those two vividly. :-)

But I stand by hating the bunt. That’s not a gut call; the numbers bear it out.

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well, it would be nice if Raj would steal home once or twice.

BTW, love this post. Great comments by all.

Oh, and the only bunting I like is the stuff they will be hanging during the World Series. In Oakland, of course.

I'm here to talk about the past.

by 67MARQUEZ on Apr 14, 2010 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

Thanks!

Everyone’s had great comments.

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

It would also be nice if Ryan Sweeney

could develop some power and hit a few bombs.

Is it possible for him to adjust his stroke to enable this or would that fuck up his hitting?

Anyone with thoughts on that?

by Trainman on Apr 14, 2010 10:37 AM PDT reply actions  

It is SHOCKING how little power Sweeney has for a guy of his size

(and a corner OF) He’s killing them, honestly.

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 10:40 AM PDT up reply actions  

Um, no. He's not hitting well. He's hitting a REALLY empty .300 and slugging less than .400

But he’s not killing them. He’s hit safely in every game.

Chavez is killing them. Suzuki is killing them. Buck is killing them. Davis is killing them.

I AM VERY MUCH ENJOYING THE HITTING OF BASEBALLS AND SCORING OF RUNS. -mikev
only an ZOMG CENSORED WORD FAMILY SITE quotes himself. -mikev

by mikev on Apr 14, 2010 10:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

Okay, how about he's KILLING them in the 3rd hole if we had any other options ;-)

And yes, empty .300 is literally the perfect description.

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions  

Well yeah, that's because he shouldn't hit 3rd.

Not that it really matters a lot over the course of the season, but he’s not good enough to be getting a high number of PAs relative to the rest of the team.

I AM VERY MUCH ENJOYING THE HITTING OF BASEBALLS AND SCORING OF RUNS. -mikev
only an ZOMG CENSORED WORD FAMILY SITE quotes himself. -mikev

by mikev on Apr 14, 2010 12:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

Amen to that.

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

STRONG AGREE

Are we really going deflate egos on this team by simply letting the hot bats get the most PA’s? Chavez is lucky to have a job, he should be hitting 8th or 9th and Pennington needs to be in the 2 hole so Barton doesnt have to bunt Davis over.

by PL78 on Apr 14, 2010 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sounds good

CF Davis
SS Pennington
1B Barton
3B Kouzmanoff
C Suzuki
RF Sweeney
2B Ellis
DH Chavez
LF Buck

"Matthews, like so many before, did not expect the Yeti. No one ever expects the Yeti." ~ Ziller

by CaliforniaJag on Apr 14, 2010 5:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

And agreed to all four of the others.

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions  

hire Stan Conte

"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey

Everything is better with bacon.

by cuppingmaster on Apr 14, 2010 10:43 AM PDT up reply actions  

yeah that guy!

"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey

Everything is better with bacon.

by cuppingmaster on Apr 14, 2010 12:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

What the hell does the club need another bass player for?

We’ve already got Clarence Cockrell!

"Cheese is the fruit juice nature intended."- The Reverend Billy Lard

by Gaijin_Suketto on Apr 14, 2010 4:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

stan Laurel

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury

by Future Ed on Apr 14, 2010 12:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not him.

He’d just get us into a series of fine messes.

"Cheese is the fruit juice nature intended."- The Reverend Billy Lard

by Gaijin_Suketto on Apr 14, 2010 4:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

Isn't he, like, 6'4" 220?

Amazing that he made it through high school, college, and every level of the minors without getting pulled aside and told to fix his slappy swing.

Sundown dazzling day, gold through my eyes.
But my eyes, turned within, only see
starless and bible black.

by danmerqury on Apr 14, 2010 10:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

At least you have a chance of moving up with the Stolen Base

The bunt? Unless you’re relying on the element of surprise, seems like giving up too much…

@MAD_Marvin
The FairWeather Channel - Sports Comics and Bandwagon Forecast

by Hit4TheCycle on Apr 14, 2010 10:52 AM PDT reply actions  

The A;s have neither surprise, nor fear

nor bright red uniforms

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury

by Future Ed on Apr 14, 2010 10:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

What about ruthless efficiency?

Shawn Spencer: Ahoy there! Um, yes. Right! My name is Shawn Spencer! This is my first mate Hummingbird Saltalamacchia!
Burton Guster: Hello!
Shawn Spencer: We were turned around-- discombobulated! We... we just now realized we're in restricted waters.
Burton Guster: Just now! And we both have hepatitis!

by PaulThomas on Apr 14, 2010 10:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

A steely glare?

I AM VERY MUCH ENJOYING THE HITTING OF BASEBALLS AND SCORING OF RUNS. -mikev
only an ZOMG CENSORED WORD FAMILY SITE quotes himself. -mikev

by mikev on Apr 14, 2010 10:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

O/T Javier Vazquez absolutely sucks

He was and is always terrible in the AL

I wouldn’t bunt against him. Even Jake Fox batting using his middle leg could get a hit off him.

by Trainman on Apr 14, 2010 10:54 AM PDT reply actions  

Its OK

the yankees will score 74 runs today. Book it.

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury

by Future Ed on Apr 14, 2010 10:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

Pretty sad when I hate the Yankees and the slegnA

Of course I would rather the slegnA lose but that’s pretty hard when you have a headcase on the mound serving it up.

by Trainman on Apr 14, 2010 11:06 AM PDT up reply actions  

Haha

100% Athletics, 100% Baseball. 2009 Athletics, 40% Baseball.

by fruitattack on Apr 14, 2010 11:01 AM PDT up reply actions  

Great great stuff, BBG!

Sundown dazzling day, gold through my eyes.
But my eyes, turned within, only see
starless and bible black.

by danmerqury on Apr 14, 2010 10:54 AM PDT reply actions  

Thanks...yours yesterday was fantastic too

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions  

So...

In other words, you need to do it enough to maintain your unpredictability from pitch to pitch to get the most out of the option of being able to bunt, but regardless of what the attempt is (swing or bunt), you should inevitably do enough unpredictable variation to allow your hitter to optimally swing away.

Leopold Bloom on why he loves Mr. Peter Gammons, his best buddy:
"Peter Gammons systematically ignored and/or ran down the A’s in the pages of Sports Illustrated and The Sporting News for a good ten year stretch in the late seventies and early to mid-eighties. Trust me, the c**ksucker hates our team."

by DMOAS on Apr 14, 2010 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

I like it :-)

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'll rec 'er too.

I mean there are freaks like Ichiro who basically do a half-swing who have the ability to leg it out. Really fast players can effectively use bunting as, like you said, a random way of getting on base, but if they do it all the time the 3B is just going to come in as fast/close as he can and deal with it.

by PL78 on Apr 14, 2010 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

Exactly

It’s like the hitter’s version of a changeup. All things being equal, you’d much rather throw 95 MPH than 85 MPH with the same movement— but the mixture of the two is better than just throwing a fastball every time.

Shawn Spencer: Ahoy there! Um, yes. Right! My name is Shawn Spencer! This is my first mate Hummingbird Saltalamacchia!
Burton Guster: Hello!
Shawn Spencer: We were turned around-- discombobulated! We... we just now realized we're in restricted waters.
Burton Guster: Just now! And we both have hepatitis!

by PaulThomas on Apr 14, 2010 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

Maybe Beane should write a book

saying that the A’s never willl bunt. So no one will expect it.

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury

by Future Ed on Apr 14, 2010 12:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

Joe Morgan

would say that Beane already wrote moneyball where he already said that.

by Billy Frijoles on Apr 14, 2010 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

OT, PT

But I was pondering:

I know that, generally speaking, very few draft picks make it to the major leagues. Thus, selecting multiple future major leaguers makes for a very successful draft when retrospectively evaluating. My question is this— what if your top pick, and probably your greatest success in the majors, tops out as a utility guy? I speak of Pennington. It’s a little early to close the books on him, yes, but this is just for the sake of argument. Is the 2005 draft successful because it turned out several major leaguers, or is it a mess because it turned out a bunch of backups/fringe 25-man players (again, for the sake of argument)?

Other notables from that draft include Travis Buck, Vin Mazzaro, Tony Recker (currently projects as a backup catcher, or so Baseball Prospectus tells me), and Brad Kilby.

"Smokey, this be not the foul jungles of the darkest East Orient. This be ninepins. We are bound by laws."

by Joey C. on Apr 14, 2010 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

It kind of depends on what your team needs

Sometimes depth is better than one superstar. Sometimes it’s the reverse.

Really, what’s more important is to have the right process in drafting. The results will vary because amateurs are very unpredictable. EG I think Buck was an excellent draft pick, but he was ruined by injury after injury.

Shawn Spencer: Ahoy there! Um, yes. Right! My name is Shawn Spencer! This is my first mate Hummingbird Saltalamacchia!
Burton Guster: Hello!
Shawn Spencer: We were turned around-- discombobulated! We... we just now realized we're in restricted waters.
Burton Guster: Just now! And we both have hepatitis!

by PaulThomas on Apr 14, 2010 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

This sums it up perfectly, BTW.

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

Thanks

I wish I could say I was responsible for thinking up most of this stuff, but really, it’s mostly Mitchell Lichtman’s.

Shawn Spencer: Ahoy there! Um, yes. Right! My name is Shawn Spencer! This is my first mate Hummingbird Saltalamacchia!
Burton Guster: Hello!
Shawn Spencer: We were turned around-- discombobulated! We... we just now realized we're in restricted waters.
Burton Guster: Just now! And we both have hepatitis!

by PaulThomas on Apr 14, 2010 4:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

Speaking of which

if people haven’t read this, I would strongly suggest it, as it goes into massively more detail and introduces some actual game situations (from last year’s ALCS).

Shawn Spencer: Ahoy there! Um, yes. Right! My name is Shawn Spencer! This is my first mate Hummingbird Saltalamacchia!
Burton Guster: Hello!
Shawn Spencer: We were turned around-- discombobulated! We... we just now realized we're in restricted waters.
Burton Guster: Just now! And we both have hepatitis!

by PaulThomas on Apr 14, 2010 4:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

Bob Geren = Bart Simpson.

“Poor predictable Bob. Always picks bunt.”

“Good ol’ bunt. Nothin’ beats that!”

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

by iglew on Apr 14, 2010 4:57 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Well he's no SideShow Bob

Leopold Bloom on why he loves Mr. Peter Gammons, his best buddy:
"Peter Gammons systematically ignored and/or ran down the A’s in the pages of Sports Illustrated and The Sporting News for a good ten year stretch in the late seventies and early to mid-eighties. Trust me, the c**ksucker hates our team."

by DMOAS on Apr 14, 2010 5:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

Allow me to further my transformation into a one-note blogger

and use figures from The Book. Again.

Sure, we can use run expectancy tables, but the authors of The Book generated win expectancy tables for each base situation in each inning, with several different run differentials. The bottom of the 9th in a tie game is one of those situations where you only need one run, right? In that situation, with no outs, the batting team has a 64.9% chance of winning. With a runner on first, that increases to 72.2%. Trading an out for a base in a sac bunt? Decreases the win expectancy down to 70.7%. Even in a situation where one run would win the ball game, it’s usually not worth it to sac bunt.

That being said, the decrease in win expectancy is only 1.5% (the margin is much larger in a context-neutral situation), so if you’ve got a particularly bad hitter coming up, it may be advantageous to bunt.

Sundown dazzling day, gold through my eyes.
But my eyes, turned within, only see
starless and bible black.

by danmerqury on Apr 14, 2010 11:14 AM PDT reply actions  

Here's where I would favor a sac bunt:

Same exact situation as yesterday’s game — tie game, if you score and then your closer pitches a scoreless inning you win, runners at first and second, nobody out, a RHP on the mound, Rajai Davis up, the hitters that follow are Barton, Sweeney, Kouzmanoff.

I’d bunt there.

Where the A’s have bunted, however? DUM DUM DUMB!

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Apr 14, 2010 11:22 AM PDT reply actions  

I can get on board with that

Mainly ‘cause Rajai has speed too; he can legit bunt and run…it wouldn’t be an automatic out necessarily.

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 11:25 AM PDT up reply actions  

If he bunts

It shouldn’t necessarily be to sacrifice, but to try to get on.

Leopold Bloom on why he loves Mr. Peter Gammons, his best buddy:
"Peter Gammons systematically ignored and/or ran down the A’s in the pages of Sports Illustrated and The Sporting News for a good ten year stretch in the late seventies and early to mid-eighties. Trust me, the c**ksucker hates our team."

by DMOAS on Apr 14, 2010 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yes, this.

I’m just not sure he’s a good enough bunter.

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well,

he’s not that good a hitter period. He likes to flail away at the ball. Better him practicing something useful like bunting than trying to fix a swing that’s not likely fixable. Utilize that speed.

Leopold Bloom on why he loves Mr. Peter Gammons, his best buddy:
"Peter Gammons systematically ignored and/or ran down the A’s in the pages of Sports Illustrated and The Sporting News for a good ten year stretch in the late seventies and early to mid-eighties. Trust me, the c**ksucker hates our team."

by DMOAS on Apr 14, 2010 12:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

I keep yelling at him to just chop the ball off the plate

If he had a fun skill like that, he’d be unstoppable!

Rajai is way too talented on the basepaths to flail at the plate. It makes me crazy that he doesn’t walk, even though I know that ’s not how he plays.

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yep

Leopold Bloom on why he loves Mr. Peter Gammons, his best buddy:
"Peter Gammons systematically ignored and/or ran down the A’s in the pages of Sports Illustrated and The Sporting News for a good ten year stretch in the late seventies and early to mid-eighties. Trust me, the c**ksucker hates our team."

by DMOAS on Apr 14, 2010 12:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

With his speed, he should be hitting the ball on the ground and be legging them out. Everytime I see him hit one in the air

he should owe me 20 pushups.

I AM VERY MUCH ENJOYING THE HITTING OF BASEBALLS AND SCORING OF RUNS. -mikev
only an ZOMG CENSORED WORD FAMILY SITE quotes himself. -mikev

by mikev on Apr 14, 2010 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think of that every time too

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 12:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

But hits like...

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 4:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Shit?

Leopold Bloom on why he loves Mr. Peter Gammons, his best buddy:
"Peter Gammons systematically ignored and/or ran down the A’s in the pages of Sports Illustrated and The Sporting News for a good ten year stretch in the late seventies and early to mid-eighties. Trust me, the c**ksucker hates our team."

by DMOAS on Apr 14, 2010 5:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

And do them right at home plate.

Leopold Bloom on why he loves Mr. Peter Gammons, his best buddy:
"Peter Gammons systematically ignored and/or ran down the A’s in the pages of Sports Illustrated and The Sporting News for a good ten year stretch in the late seventies and early to mid-eighties. Trust me, the c**ksucker hates our team."

by DMOAS on Apr 14, 2010 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

Damn straight

Leopold Bloom on why he loves Mr. Peter Gammons, his best buddy:
"Peter Gammons systematically ignored and/or ran down the A’s in the pages of Sports Illustrated and The Sporting News for a good ten year stretch in the late seventies and early to mid-eighties. Trust me, the c**ksucker hates our team."

by DMOAS on Apr 14, 2010 4:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

So with a runner on 2nd base and no outs DO you still want a right handed batter attempting to hit a ground ball to the right side to adavnce the runner to second? Thus, sacrificing his at bat to move the runner over. Although theres still a possibility of a base hit. I guess my point is in baseball theres alot of situations in which a hitter doesn’t try and hit the ball over the fence; ie: sac flies, sac bunts, squeezes, groundball with a runner on 3rd etc

Ray Fosse thinks Pete Rose is a prick......

by oakwin2004 on Apr 14, 2010 1:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

Silly Question...

If a team scores first in a baseball game, do their odds of winning that game increase?

by Colorado Fan on Apr 14, 2010 11:46 AM PDT reply actions  

Yes.

The Ultimate Opportunist

by Rated-R Superstar on Apr 14, 2010 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

you weren't shut out

But still better to score 2 runs first instead of just 1

by MobiusKlein on Apr 14, 2010 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

Absolutely.

Sundown dazzling day, gold through my eyes.
But my eyes, turned within, only see
starless and bible black.

by danmerqury on Apr 14, 2010 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not a silly question at all

it’s nuanced ;-)

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 12:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

believe it or not they actually decrease

if your closer is mike gonzalez

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones."
-BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Apr 14, 2010 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

The problem is...

…that if you are playing for only one run early, you diminish your chances of winning the game overall. Scoring the first run is good, but you don’t want to sacrifice multiple runs to get just the one.

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

If a team scores third in a baseball game, do their odds of winning that game increase?

If a team scores sixth in a baseball game, do their odds of winning that game increase?

I’m pretty sure the answer is yes no matter what the ordinal number.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

by iglew on Apr 14, 2010 5:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not always the case

To take an extreme, bottom of the 9th, down 4, 1 out, bases loaded. A sacrifice fly brings a runner home but decreases the chances of winning.

"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton

by vignette17 on Apr 14, 2010 6:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yes

zero games have been won by teams that have not scored. (Excluding forfeits)

by MobiusKlein on Apr 14, 2010 6:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

I am fascinated

By all of the discussion on here, and the detail into which people will go to make a point. It is clearly a topic on which people have strong feelings. It seems to me, at this point, that it all boils down to bunting infrequently, but not never. It should mostly only be done with batters who are not very good hitters (never with Barton, often with pitchers), and should almost never be done by bad bunters. And if the defense is playing in looking for the bunt, better to swing away (unless it’s a pitcher. Man, pitchers are bad hitters). Thanks BBG for including this information and getting a great conversation started.

by el generico on Apr 14, 2010 12:19 PM PDT reply actions  

You're welcome...I love this discussion. Thanks everyone.

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 12:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

All that being said...

…my 2nd favorite A’s memory is when Ramon Hernandez bunted against the Red Sox in the ALDS. I about flew out of my chair in excitement.

My first favorite being Mike Moore’s double in Game 4 of the 1989 WS and the look of utter shock on Bret Butler’s face as the ball sailed over his head.

Pitching and defense wins pennants, but offense sells tickets.

by UncleLeo on Apr 14, 2010 12:55 PM PDT reply actions  

that wasn't a sac bunt.

I AM VERY MUCH ENJOYING THE HITTING OF BASEBALLS AND SCORING OF RUNS. -mikev
only an ZOMG CENSORED WORD FAMILY SITE quotes himself. -mikev

by mikev on Apr 14, 2010 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

I didn't say it was...

…and neither did BBG in her last paragraph.

Pitching and defense wins pennants, but offense sells tickets.

by UncleLeo on Apr 14, 2010 1:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

It's my favorite bunt, as well

I’m sure there were 2 outs; it couldn’t have been a sac bunt anyway. It was a classic, ‘take advantage of the situation and what the defense is willing to give up and catch them by surprise’ and it was FANTASTIC.

But in a different ballpark (no pun intended ;-)) than a sac bunt.

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

As much as I hate the Giants...

…one of the coolest plays ever was when Candlestink Park had Astroturf and Willie McCovey beat the shift by bunting toward third base and it rolled all the way down the left field line for a double.

Root for the Giants? Not even if they're playing al-Qaeda!

by Monday Fan on Apr 14, 2010 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

Another great moment related to that

was the next game where Ramon Hernandez squared around and showed bunt just to mock them in the first AB. Classic.

by Billy Frijoles on Apr 14, 2010 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

My favorite personal part about it is I actually called that bunt

I was in a suite behind the bleachers that the company I worked for had and I turned to the others and said, “Watch if he doesn’t bunt right here.”

Then it happened and the place went nuts. Too bad that was the highlight of the series for the A’s.

Last of the Ninth - Photography

by Flashfire on Apr 14, 2010 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

oh yes, i was up off the couch, jumping around ..... this is it!

then a few nights later…….after events best not mentioned, I was cursing like a sailor and taking scissors to my A’s cap clipping it to pieces in utter exasperation and frustration.

alaska A residing in northern Idaho.

by ak_A on Apr 14, 2010 6:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

I would like someone to analyze the merit of the intentional walk

in my mind, there are certain times it makes sense (ie., walk Barry Bonds, pitch to Pedro Feliz instead..). But if there is not a big dropoff in hitter quality, and you are issuing the IBB just to set up the double play, my intuition is that this is not a worthwhile thing to do. But, that’s intuition, not analysis. Your thoughts?

Hi ho.

by danh on Apr 14, 2010 1:50 PM PDT reply actions  

I'd like to know this too

I would say that in the situation where one run would win the game, all bets are off; you sac bunt, you IBB, you set up a weird defensive strategy, etc. But for a normal situation, you have just given the other team an extra baserunner…? But if that batter is .350+ Ichiro with two-outs and a runner on second base as opposed to .275 someone else…you just choose who you’d rather have your pitcher pitch to, right? I don’t have a really strong opinion on this one, except I hate it with no outs and no one on. He’s going to get out more than he hits a homerun (even Bonds!).

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

It also depends on the pitcher.

Someone like Ziggy would be more likely to induce the DP, over say, Bailey.

by LoneStranger on Apr 15, 2010 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

Actually, he uses them less than most managers

It’s very George Carlin. Think of how bad Geren is sometimes. Then realize that most of the managers are even dumber than he is.

Shawn Spencer: Ahoy there! Um, yes. Right! My name is Shawn Spencer! This is my first mate Hummingbird Saltalamacchia!
Burton Guster: Hello!
Shawn Spencer: We were turned around-- discombobulated! We... we just now realized we're in restricted waters.
Burton Guster: Just now! And we both have hepatitis!

by PaulThomas on Apr 14, 2010 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

{blinks hard}

I'm here to talk about the past.

by 67MARQUEZ on Apr 14, 2010 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

{blinks harder}

Leopold Bloom on why he loves Mr. Peter Gammons, his best buddy:
"Peter Gammons systematically ignored and/or ran down the A’s in the pages of Sports Illustrated and The Sporting News for a good ten year stretch in the late seventies and early to mid-eighties. Trust me, the c**ksucker hates our team."

by DMOAS on Apr 14, 2010 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

It's okay...

…didn’t Ozzie let Posednik keep stealing with something like a 67% in 2005? That would have made me crazy. Sure a lot of steals LOOK impressive, but how many outs did he give away!

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

Buh buh buh but he stole 300 bases

So what if he got caught 1000 times. 300 stolen bases in a year. No one has EVER done that. EVER!

Leopold Bloom on why he loves Mr. Peter Gammons, his best buddy:
"Peter Gammons systematically ignored and/or ran down the A’s in the pages of Sports Illustrated and The Sporting News for a good ten year stretch in the late seventies and early to mid-eighties. Trust me, the c**ksucker hates our team."

by DMOAS on Apr 14, 2010 4:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

Amazing, isn't it? The numbers that we focus on :-)

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 4:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yep :)

Just like RBI. I’d love to see RBI by RBI opportunity. That’d be a fun one to look at. RBI alone, like SB alone, meaningless.

Leopold Bloom on why he loves Mr. Peter Gammons, his best buddy:
"Peter Gammons systematically ignored and/or ran down the A’s in the pages of Sports Illustrated and The Sporting News for a good ten year stretch in the late seventies and early to mid-eighties. Trust me, the c**ksucker hates our team."

by DMOAS on Apr 14, 2010 5:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

Kind of like me alone.

Oh.

I'm here to talk about the past.

by 67MARQUEZ on Apr 15, 2010 7:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

I don't believe you.

You’re probably right, but still, I don’t believe you.

If Brett Anderson would’ve thrown to one more batter last night I would’ve gotten on a plane to Seattle and I would’ve done whatever it took to make sure Bob Geren would not be managing tonight’s game. I think Geren is Dusty Baker-bad, and he even exhibits some of the same damning characteristics.

www.zekeishungry.com

by thejd44 on Apr 14, 2010 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hm, I don't really remember many if any games where he let guys' pitch counts go above 110

My primary aversion to Geren is not his handling of pitchers, nor his strategic decisionmaking, but rather what I perceive to be a seriously dated viewpoint on batting average.

Shawn Spencer: Ahoy there! Um, yes. Right! My name is Shawn Spencer! This is my first mate Hummingbird Saltalamacchia!
Burton Guster: Hello!
Shawn Spencer: We were turned around-- discombobulated! We... we just now realized we're in restricted waters.
Burton Guster: Just now! And we both have hepatitis!

by PaulThomas on Apr 14, 2010 4:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

At least Dusty Baker's interesting

Rather than the banal rah rah talk day in and day out from Geren.

And he wears wristbands! You know, in case he needs to get into the game.

by Billy Frijoles on Apr 14, 2010 5:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

or wipe his nose

alaska A residing in northern Idaho.

by ak_A on Apr 14, 2010 6:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

Tango has charts for when to walk Bonds

If you look at how little teams should even walk HIM, you can extrapolate a little and figure that walking actual human beings is rarely the wise move.

http://www.tangotiger.net/walkbonds.html

http://www.tangotiger.net/walkbonds2.html

www.zekeishungry.com

by thejd44 on Apr 14, 2010 4:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

Awesome...thanks!

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 4:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ortiz bunting against The Shift

Since David Ortiz is struggling so badly, what do you think about him bunting on the shift and taking the free base? If he did it enough do you think that defenses would think twice about running the shift on him when the bases are empty?

(wish we had a hitter threatening enough to warrant a shift…)

by Billy Frijoles on Apr 14, 2010 1:51 PM PDT reply actions  

I think it's fine.

I’m all about a) bunting for a base hit and b) taking what the defense gives you. It’s when it’s a predictable bunt for a sacrifice; everyone’s ready for it, virtually ZERO chance of a hit…easy throw to the base…doesn’t make sense.

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

He'd still probably thrown out at first.

Leopold Bloom on why he loves Mr. Peter Gammons, his best buddy:
"Peter Gammons systematically ignored and/or ran down the A’s in the pages of Sports Illustrated and The Sporting News for a good ten year stretch in the late seventies and early to mid-eighties. Trust me, the c**ksucker hates our team."

by DMOAS on Apr 14, 2010 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

We can bunt if you want to

We can leave runners on base
Cause your friends don’t bunt
And if they don’t bunt
Well they’re no friends of mine

@MAD_Marvin
The FairWeather Channel - Sports Comics and Bandwagon Forecast

by Hit4TheCycle on Apr 14, 2010 1:54 PM PDT reply actions   2 recs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3qGnqv_tqc

Sundown dazzling day, gold through my eyes.
But my eyes, turned within, only see
starless and bible black.

by danmerqury on Apr 14, 2010 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

nice

- one of the best hitters on the team last year- nontendered - resigned - DFA’d - BY THE SAME TEAM

That’s just f'ed up - mikev

by closetasfan on Apr 14, 2010 4:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

Can you just rename this post to

FIRE GEREN NOW?

/agrees on sac bunts….boooo!

"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."

"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff

by ST on Apr 14, 2010 2:12 PM PDT reply actions  

so you hate bunting, so do I! I find it ostentatious and hard on the eyes aesthetically


Seriously, it’s OK late in the game at times, but the A’s seem to be doing it too early in games and that sends a message to the other team, and that message isn’t “We feel we can and will score at will in this game. Watch us mash and be powerless in our mighty wake.”

Hey, I just bought the team from Lew Wolff... who wants to play third?

by emperor nobody on Apr 14, 2010 2:22 PM PDT reply actions  

Do you think that part of the reason why they bunt early

Is because their offense sucks so bad, and the team’s confidence goes up if they get a run here and there early?

by Billy Frijoles on Apr 14, 2010 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

if you're going to but, do it when the guy coming up can help you out

Seems like you should bunt only in front of guys that can handle the bat enough to get the the run home. Don’t bunt in front of Jack Cust/Mark Reynolds/Adam Dunn, since they strike out to often, but do bunt in front of Ichiro, since he’s excellent at putting the ball in play.

Apologies if someone already said this. Too many comments to digest.

by write_said_fred on Apr 14, 2010 2:44 PM PDT reply actions  

On an unhappier note..

Lineup tonight looks gruesome. Patterson in LF, Gross in RF, Fox DH. Nothing like trying to stay out of a losing streak…

by coffee roaster on Apr 14, 2010 4:37 PM PDT reply actions  

Boo.

The Ultimate Opportunist

by Rated-R Superstar on Apr 14, 2010 4:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ewwwwwwww

"Matthews, like so many before, did not expect the Yeti. No one ever expects the Yeti." ~ Ziller

by CaliforniaJag on Apr 14, 2010 5:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

like I said, lots of bunts! ;-)

I hope, somewhere, Sweeney is being forcefed steaks and protein shakes until his singles start turning into HR

"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey

Everything is better with bacon.

by cuppingmaster on Apr 14, 2010 6:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

I actually don't hate it

relatively speaking: Davis, Barton Suzuki, Kouzmanoff, fox, rosales, gross, patterson, pennington.

Unless Pujols is coming soon, its not going to get better.

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury

by Future Ed on Apr 14, 2010 6:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

Gross starting against a lefthander worked about as well as one would have predicted

i.e. appallingly badly.

Shawn Spencer: Ahoy there! Um, yes. Right! My name is Shawn Spencer! This is my first mate Hummingbird Saltalamacchia!
Burton Guster: Hello!
Shawn Spencer: We were turned around-- discombobulated! We... we just now realized we're in restricted waters.
Burton Guster: Just now! And we both have hepatitis!

by PaulThomas on Apr 14, 2010 10:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

buck v gross?

meh

arsenic v hemlock

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury

by Future Ed on Apr 14, 2010 10:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

This thread needs to be filk-songed

I hate sac bunts and I cannot lie….

Or do we have to go to Free Kraut for that now?

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

by iglew on Apr 14, 2010 5:04 PM PDT reply actions  

You have to go over there.

Just make sure to put on some shoes first.

"Cheese is the fruit juice nature intended."- The Reverend Billy Lard

by Gaijin_Suketto on Apr 14, 2010 5:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

LB really needs to clean those nuts off the floor

Leopold Bloom on why he loves Mr. Peter Gammons, his best buddy:
"Peter Gammons systematically ignored and/or ran down the A’s in the pages of Sports Illustrated and The Sporting News for a good ten year stretch in the late seventies and early to mid-eighties. Trust me, the c**ksucker hates our team."

by DMOAS on Apr 14, 2010 6:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

All that needs to be said

http://baseballprospectus.com/statistics/sortable/index.php?cid=68757

In every situation, a “successful” bunt decreases the amount of runs a team is expected to score (assuming all the hitters are equal).

With a runner on first and none out, a “successful” bunt decreases the likelihood of scoring at least one run. With a runner on second, it barely increases.

When you consider that the defense will play their corners in to reduce the odds of a successful bunt in any obvious bunting situation (i.e., tie game, 8th innings, first and second, no one out), you can easily make the argument that it’s NEVER a good idea to sacrifice bunt with a non-pitcher.

by swatnick on Apr 14, 2010 6:07 PM PDT reply actions  

Thanks, 8 hours late

think of the time and kittens that could have been saved.

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury

by Future Ed on Apr 14, 2010 6:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

Reading the comments....

I think the thing people are missing is that bunting usually decreases the odds of a team scoring at least one run, especially when you factor in the fact that not all bunts are successful. It doesn’t really change much for a bad-hitting team, a good-fielding team, a speed team, or a power team. This isn’t just “the stat people talking.” This has been born out by thousands and thousands of real life examples. Put simply, teams score more runs with a runner on second and none out than a runner on third with one out. It doesn’t matter if your team has a .720 OPS (A’s) or .800 OPS (Yankees) because, really, that’s not a big enough difference to sway strategy that much. It was true in 1965, when the mound was twenty feet high and you could win a batting title hitting .283, and it’s true today.

by swatnick on Apr 14, 2010 7:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

Beautiful, thank you.

"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez

by baseballgirl on Apr 14, 2010 7:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

It's never the optimal play, correct; hitting away is the dominant strategy

However, it’s better to mix optimal and suboptimal plays than to have a predictable strategy of only ever going for the optimal play.

Shawn Spencer: Ahoy there! Um, yes. Right! My name is Shawn Spencer! This is my first mate Hummingbird Saltalamacchia!
Burton Guster: Hello!
Shawn Spencer: We were turned around-- discombobulated! We... we just now realized we're in restricted waters.
Burton Guster: Just now! And we both have hepatitis!

by PaulThomas on Apr 14, 2010 10:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

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