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The Metric System: A Look At Pitchers' Control Of BABIP

NOTE: Today's A's-Angels game has been canceled due to rain. Boo. So instead of a game thread, today I bring you...The chance to argue about something!!!

NOTE #2: Tonight at midnight is the last chance to enter the AN Fantasy Baseball League. Enter now for your chance to play against other ANers!

First of all, I'd like to say that I think I'm often incorrectly dubbed an "anti stats" jerk terrorist fan, partly because I do value the art of "eyeball scouting," partly because I do believe in the importance of the mental side of baseball, and partly because I don't take all data at face value.

In fact, though, I firmly believe that stats are useful, that many metrics are far more reliable than most eyeballs, intuitions, and memories -- and so I prefer to think of myself as someone who balances an appreciation for good metrics with an appreciation for good observation, instinct, and logic.

So why do I find myself often at odds with "proven statistical claims" like "Pitchers do not control BABIP (batting average on balls put in play)"? I think it's because one of the factors that most reliably makes stats, equations, and theories more difficult to analyze or solve is the presence of many variables. For example, x+3=7 is a much different beast than, say, x+y=9. Whether Saturday or Sunday is a more popular day for AN readership is harder to measure if one Sunday is the Super Bowl while the next Sunday coincides with the trade of Dana Eveland and Bobby Crosby for Albert Pujols.

Today I want to talk about the notion that pitchers do not control BABIP, which often leads to the notion that once the ball hits the bat, from the pitcher's point of view the rest is in the hands of lady luck. I say yes and no.

Star-divide

The main thrust of this post is not going to be that pitchers do control their BABIP. What I'm putting forth today is just the idea that it's more complicated than just "they do" or "they don't." We know that over time, a pitcher's BABIP, whether he is Greg Maddux, Greg Cadaret, or Kevin Gregg, will generally be between .280-.320. Why?

The biggest factor is, quite simply, the number of fielders you are allowed to put on the infield and in the outfield, and the size of a baseball field. If you were allowed only 3 infielders and 2 outfielders, BABIPs would soar, and if you could employ a 5th infielder and a 4th outfielder, BABIPs would plummet. BABIPs would be much higher at Diamondbacks games if Arizona played its home games in the Grand Canyon. The main reason a batted ball can be expected to fall safely about 3/10 of the time, and not 2/10 or 4/10 of the time, is a direct function of how many fielders are allowed in how big a space, and those relative constants drive BABIP more than any other factors.

However, here are some other observations that I want to introduce into the equation:

* The spread of .280-.320 for "expected BABIP" is relatively small. It is .300 +/- only .020 points of batting average. However, it is not miniscule in that we do not generally regard a career .260 hitter and a .300 hitter to be the same, nor do we regard a career .220 hitter to be interchangeable with a career .260 hitter. So even when we start with the premise that a pitcher's "expected BABIP" ranges only from .280-.320, remember that the ability to hold opposing hitters to a BABIP of .280 and one of .320 are different enough that even the range of expected outcomes is actually significant -- or at least not entirely insignificant.

* I wonder if some of the data on pitchers' BABIP is skewed by the fact that pitchers who have true "high BABIPs" don't last long. What are the keys to a high BABIP? A straight fastball, the tendency to hang sliders, bad location -- also the qualities associated with pitchers who are quickly demoted and swiftly forgotten.

* Greg Maddux has been cited as evidence of how pitchers don't control BABIP, because here's a clear Hall of Famer whose BABIP was .289, just .011 points off the average and well within the expected range. I don't think Maddux is a great example, though. Maddux's game was to throw a lot of first pitch strikes, and thus to exchange some "hittable strikes" for the ability to maintain low BB totals and pitch consistently ahead and the count. I think that if Maddux's one goal in life was to have an exceptionally low BABIP, he could have had one -- he just knew he was a better pitcher overall if he approached hitters exactly the way he did.

So what's luck and what's skill? Intuitively -- and fangraphs agrees -- the biggest way a pitcher does exert influence over his BABIP is by allowing a higher or lower percentage of balls to be hit really hard. BABIP highly correlates, not surprisingly, with "line drive rate," and so while the bloops, bouncers, and looping fly balls reliably even out over time, what doesn't even out is when one pitcher keeps serving up a buffet of searing line drives while another pitcher allows the normal assortment of liners, bleeders, pop ups, and sharp grounders. GO/AO ratio is also a factor, since ground balls and fly balls don't have identical "expected BABIPs."

So why, then, is the range of "expected BABIP" still so small? I think a fair amount of it is "regression to the mean," which does not have anything to do with luck. A pitcher whose BABIP, at the start of the season, stands at .444 -- because he is pitching really badly and balls are being scorched off of him left and right -- will see that number fall quickly towards .300 when he makes adjustments, because a stretch of even 33/100 will send the number not falling but rather plummeting.

A pitcher whose BABIP stands at .182, meanwhile -- maybe because he is pitching exceptionally well, jamming hitters, getting late action on his sinker, and inducing a lot of funky swings and weak contact -- will see that number rise like Lazarus on crack even should just 27 of the next 100 balls fall safely into play. The mechanism that is pushing the number towards the mean is not just a force of "luck returning to normal" (as it would be with the flipped coin), but also just a force of statistics -- the force which sends stats always spinning towards the vortex of their statistical mean.

In summary, I believe that pitchers probably control their BABIP more over short stretches than over longer sustained stretches, that regression and the quick banishment of outliers (on the bad side) help to compress the range of expected BABIPs, and that the pitcher's ability to influence BABIP is far more complex than just "basically they don't" -- and that otherwise, yes: When you put exactly 4 infielders and 3 outfielders on a standard baseball field, and then consider the customary range of batted balls, a pitcher is going to watch balls in play drop safely about 30% of the time no matter who they are.

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Called for rain?

What is this, cricket? Get out there you pussies.

Some motherfcukers are always trying to ice skate uphill - Blade.

by OldhamA on Mar 7, 2010 11:41 AM PST reply actions  

Well, the scheduled game will last two days,

so yes. It’s cricket.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Mar 7, 2010 11:43 AM PST up reply actions  

Two days? You don't know cricket do you?

It’s 3 hours, 1 day or 5 days.

Y’know I’ve still not taken the time to read your article. I’ll get round to it eventually :-P

Some motherfcukers are always trying to ice skate uphill - Blade.

by OldhamA on Mar 7, 2010 11:45 AM PST up reply actions  

If it's convenient

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Mar 7, 2010 11:56 AM PST up reply actions  

Meow

Good article though. I err on the side of the sabermataricians (is that a word) though – the stats show that pitchers don’t control BABIP, even though one would think they should.

That said I am one that likes to judge with my eye (for some reason I’m a good judge of sporting talent) and let the stats back those opinions up, rather than the other way round.

Some motherfcukers are always trying to ice skate uphill - Blade.

by OldhamA on Mar 7, 2010 12:09 PM PST up reply actions  

Crunching stats makes my head hurt...

then again it could have been the 8 hours of drinking and poker yesterday….

:q

Bummer about the game today. i was really looking forward to some A’s baseball.

"By the end of the year, I'll have Dallas throwing right-handed'' -Ben Sheets

by mrod on Mar 7, 2010 4:41 PM PST up reply actions  

silver lining

I actually finished a report that was (kind of) overdue.

by OaklandSi on Mar 7, 2010 5:17 PM PST up reply actions  

I can't change my sigline for proprietary and legal reasons,

but this is sigline worthy.

sock puppets have never successfully defended castles. -nm

by Leopold Bloom on Mar 7, 2010 12:28 PM PST up reply actions  

(sigh)

I don’t know, sirbed.

I. just. don’t. know.

sock puppets have never successfully defended castles. -nm

by Leopold Bloom on Mar 7, 2010 2:06 PM PST up reply actions  

BABIP sounds like a medical test

Who can we get to promote it? We need someone who won’t be able to pronounce the illness we’re testing for. Who can we get to say “Ugly peetching leenes?”

Leopold Bloom on why he loves Mr. Peter Gammons, his best buddy:
"Peter Gammons systematically ignored and/or ran down the A’s in the pages of Sports Illustrated and The Sporting News for a good ten year stretch in the late seventies and early to mid-eighties. Trust me, the c**ksucker hates our team."

by DMOAS on Mar 7, 2010 3:23 PM PST up reply actions  

The BAB smear is especially unpleasant

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Mar 7, 2010 3:25 PM PST up reply actions  

Save it for the regular season!

Don’t want our pussies getting wet out there.

Totally called for. :(

by ElQuesoCapitan on Mar 7, 2010 1:17 PM PST up reply actions  

son of a ......

and I sprang for the mlbtv just this morning .

alaska A residing in northern Idaho.

by ak_A on Mar 7, 2010 11:50 AM PST reply actions  

I'm pretty sure I'll never hear the A's on the radio

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Mar 7, 2010 11:56 AM PST up reply actions  

two counter points

1)Line drive rates fluctuate pretty crazily from season to season.
2)I’m not sure what the difference is between something that’s not a skill, and something that’s only a skill for a short, unpredictable amount of time.

That being said, there are a lot of reasons not to be a crazy fundamentalist about pitcher BABIP. It’s true for most pitchers, but obviously not all of them. We know that left-handers often have sub-300 BABIPs and a few other types of pitcher are able to consistently prevent more runs than just their K,BB and HR rates would indicate.

Mark DeRosa: the rare utility player who can provide some utility.

by oldjacket on Mar 7, 2010 11:58 AM PST reply actions  

Saturday is much less popular than Sunday.

And both are significantly more popular in season.

sock puppets have never successfully defended castles. -nm

by Leopold Bloom on Mar 7, 2010 12:36 PM PST reply actions  

Another reason why Maddux was so successful is that he induced an insane amount of ground balls.

"The A's get some action but they do not score..." -Glen Kuiper

"Anyone who calls themselves the Angels Angels should have to start over and ride the short bus." -timmeh from McCovey Chronicles

by Cheezombie on Mar 7, 2010 12:38 PM PST reply actions  

having a few seasons with a K/BB rate north of 5 didn’t hurt either.

Mark DeRosa: the rare utility player who can provide some utility.

by oldjacket on Mar 7, 2010 1:18 PM PST up reply actions  

obviously

"The A's get some action but they do not score..." -Glen Kuiper

"Anyone who calls themselves the Angels Angels should have to start over and ride the short bus." -timmeh from McCovey Chronicles

by Cheezombie on Mar 7, 2010 1:38 PM PST up reply actions  

/Prof. Snape

sock puppets have never successfully defended castles. -nm

by Leopold Bloom on Mar 7, 2010 2:06 PM PST up reply actions  

While much of this is correct, some of it is not

First, regression to the mean is not a “force” or the hand of God or something. It’s just a statistical phenomenon. The reason the pitcher is going to regress to .300 is not that some teleological entity is pulling it there, it’s that he rather obviously doesn’t have a true talent BABIP of .180 and thus a bunch more baseball played at his true talent level will swallow up the brief lucky hiccup in the stats. If there really existed players with true-talent BABIP of .180, their early-season streaks at .180 BABIP wouldn’t normally regress toward the league mean at all!

Second, the phenomenon Nico describes could best be termed “skill regression,” which is a very real factor. If a guy hits a home run for the first 3 at-bats of the season, surely one would not (no matter how skillfully he mugged those balls) expect him to continue to hit a home run in every at-bat all season long.

That should not, however, be taken to mean that “luck regression” does not exist, because it absolutely does. The two concepts are very often confused and people often wrongly take the existence of one to implicitly deny the existence of the other. Both of them are in play at any given time.

Quite frankly, I doubt whether pitchers actually DO have the ability to control their BABIP for short stretches— I mean, if they did, why wouldn’t they be able to control it for longer stretches? I suspect it’s like “hot streaks” for hitters— people are convinced they exist, but there actually are barely more of them than you would expect based solely on random chance.

Finally, I’d observe that there’s nothing magical about .300. That number is as low as you can go while fielding lineups of currently-MLB-quality hitters. On the other hand, it was a hell of a lot lower in 1915, and it’s a hell of a lot higher today in leagues outside of the majors. Any number of things can influence it, including but not limited to:

Quality/material of bats
Quality of balls
Size of fields
Quality of fielders
Size of foul territory
Number of balls and strikes required to terminate an at-bat
Quality of opposing hitters

It’s basically an environmental factor— one of many in baseball, the most environment-dependent major sport.

Shawn Spencer: "I’m receiving a transmission from your husband. Really more of a voicemail, if I'm being honest. A status update. Perhaps a twitter."
Burton Guster: "I believe it’s called a tweet."
Shawn Spencer: "There’s no way I’m saying that."

by PaulThomas on Mar 7, 2010 2:26 PM PST reply actions   5 recs

Look! A squirrel!

(runs after squirrel)

sock puppets have never successfully defended castles. -nm

by Leopold Bloom on Mar 7, 2010 2:43 PM PST up reply actions  

[doesn't get it]

Shawn Spencer: "I’m receiving a transmission from your husband. Really more of a voicemail, if I'm being honest. A status update. Perhaps a twitter."
Burton Guster: "I believe it’s called a tweet."
Shawn Spencer: "There’s no way I’m saying that."

by PaulThomas on Mar 7, 2010 4:36 PM PST up reply actions  

As you with me, I mostly agree with this with the occasional "but..."

The one thing I don’t accept is, “I doubt whether pitchers actually DO have the ability to control their BABIP for short stretches— I mean, if they did, why wouldn’t they be able to control it for longer stretches?” There are many examples of things you can do for short stretches but not for longer ones.

Adrenaline is very real, but cannot be sustained over time. If I teach the best class I have taught all year, it’s neither luck nor is it sustainable — I did some things right and I want to try to figure out what they were in order to improve going forward, but that doesn’t mean I can just “teach that well” every day for the next few years. So in a sense it’s both real and also not predictable.

Just because we don’t know how long a pitcher will induce a lower BABIP, and just because he can’t “know what it is and be sure to keep doing it” doesn’t mean it’s not the result of something he’s doing right. There is so much “adjustment-counter adjustment” in baseball, along with issues of nagging health factors, that things are never the same for very long.

Semantically, I fully accept the concepts of “unsustainable” and “not predictable” while I reject “lucky” or “completely externally controlled,” because I think all these concepts are quite different.

I do agree, btw, that luck is very much involved in BABIP. Otherwise, Jorge Posada would never be able to hit .338 for a full season!

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Mar 7, 2010 2:57 PM PST up reply actions  

come here, squirrel!

(runs away giggling)

sock puppets have never successfully defended castles. -nm

by Leopold Bloom on Mar 7, 2010 3:10 PM PST up reply actions  

nuts?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Mar 7, 2010 3:15 PM PST up reply actions  

whee!

sock puppets have never successfully defended castles. -nm

by Leopold Bloom on Mar 8, 2010 9:26 AM PST up reply actions  

Oh, and my point about the regression to the mean

isn’t that it’s controlled by “divine” (or Devine) forces, but rather that the farther a stat currently is from the mean the more aggressively it will get pushed towards the mean by the next set of results.

This helps to explain why the standard deviation is smaller, e.g., why the normal range of pitcher BABIPs is .280-.320 and not, say, .260-.340, in which case we’d be more likely to attribute “pitcher control” to the differences.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Mar 7, 2010 3:15 PM PST up reply actions  

That's not necessarily true

I mean, it sort of is, but only if you assume that everyone has the same mean. Which in turn is the same as an assumption that BABIP is not a skill!

Assuming players have different means, the places that they are regressing to are different. Which means the “rates of regression” are also different. A .250 BABIP will regress slower than a .320 BABIP if the place they’re regressing to is a .280 BABIP.

The range of observed long-run pitcher BABIPs is very narrow because the range of true-talent BABIPs is very narrow. That’s the only reason for it— there isn’t very much skill involved there. If the range of talent was wider, the range of observations would also be wider, as we see with hitter BABIPs, which routinely range from about .240 to about .360.

Shawn Spencer: "I’m receiving a transmission from your husband. Really more of a voicemail, if I'm being honest. A status update. Perhaps a twitter."
Burton Guster: "I believe it’s called a tweet."
Shawn Spencer: "There’s no way I’m saying that."

by PaulThomas on Mar 7, 2010 4:45 PM PST up reply actions  

I guess what I meant was that

“everyone collectively” has one mean, not everyone individually. The figure of .300 is “mean of the means,” not necessarily any given pitcher’s mean. But with that in mind, your point in paragraph 2 is well taken, as is the first sentence in paragraph 3.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Mar 7, 2010 5:38 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah. I still don’t get it.

What’s the difference between a skill that only appears for short, unpredictable bursts and something that’s not a skill at all?

Mark DeRosa: the rare utility player who can provide some utility.

by oldjacket on Mar 7, 2010 4:00 PM PST up reply actions  

Whether you can impact the results or not

Flipping a coin heads 7 times out of 10 is not a skill. Hitting 7 line drives out of 10 might be, even if you can’t keep doing it forever.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Mar 7, 2010 4:08 PM PST up reply actions  

Repeatability is the essence of skill. If I make prediction that goes right, I wasn’t temporarily endowed with a psychic ability skill – I just got lucky. Same goes for athletic activities. I’ve got an awful, Biedrinsesque free-throw shot, but I’ve made ten in a row before. I didn’t temporarily become skilled, my results just temporarily diverged from my ability level.

Mark DeRosa: the rare utility player who can provide some utility.

by oldjacket on Mar 7, 2010 4:17 PM PST up reply actions  

I should add, this definition isn’t just some weird sabremetrics-nerd consensus, it’s also a basic tenet of psychology and is even enshrined in U.S. labor and Equal Employment Opportunity law.

Mark DeRosa: the rare utility player who can provide some utility.

by oldjacket on Mar 7, 2010 4:24 PM PST up reply actions  

but context is everything

in MLB, the context is “insanely good pitchers against insanely good hitters.” All MLB pitchers are really good at BABIP; .some are better than others. But they all have incredible pitching skill. Just the same, all MLB hitters are really good.

If a pitcher has a .200 BABIP for a week, there is a reason. It may be skill, luck, or both. Luck works itself out; but the league works skill out by adjusting.

So, the SKILL may be repeated, but the OUTCOME will not because of the hitters’ skill.

The A's. The SWINGING A's. That's right, the SWINGING A's.

by eastcoasta'sfan on Mar 7, 2010 4:41 PM PST up reply actions  

Among the population of MLB players,

the fact that one person may be much more skilled than the general population is basically irrelevant. It’s a non sequitur.

Shawn Spencer: "I’m receiving a transmission from your husband. Really more of a voicemail, if I'm being honest. A status update. Perhaps a twitter."
Burton Guster: "I believe it’s called a tweet."
Shawn Spencer: "There’s no way I’m saying that."

by PaulThomas on Mar 7, 2010 4:52 PM PST up reply actions  

A lot like squirrels!

C’mon squirrel!

(runs after squirrel, laughing)

sock puppets have never successfully defended castles. -nm

by Leopold Bloom on Mar 7, 2010 5:00 PM PST up reply actions  

That’s totally true. Every skill is only a skill in a particular context. I just don’t really feel like prefacing every comment I make about baseball with “amongst the population of MLB-baseball players”, I’ll happily just assume that you already know that.

Mark DeRosa: the rare utility player who can provide some utility.

by oldjacket on Mar 7, 2010 5:26 PM PST up reply actions  

Imagine some sort of aiming task.

Now postulate that it is a skill to repeat the exact same motions one made previously. Postulate further that it is easier to repeat motions made more recently than ones made longer ago.

If these are the case, then you’ve got a skill that will manifest itself streakily. If you got it right last time, it’s easier to repeat than if you didn’t get it right last time. So your probability of succeeding on the next attempt is better if it follows a streak of successes than if it follows a streak of failures.

Whether a skill is streaky and whether it is skill-dependent are two separate questions. All four combinations — streaky skill, streaky non-skill, non-streaky skill, and non-streaky non-skill — are possible and there are plenty of examples of each.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

by iglew on Mar 7, 2010 4:38 PM PST up reply actions  

Anything I ever painted in Art class

was an example of “streaky non-skill.”

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Mar 7, 2010 5:39 PM PST up reply actions  

how would you tell a streaky skill from a streaky non-skill?

Mark DeRosa: the rare utility player who can provide some utility.

by oldjacket on Mar 7, 2010 7:25 PM PST up reply actions  

Jackson Pollock totally had a streaky skill. Or maybe it was a skill with streaks.

@worldblee on Twitter.

by worldblee on Mar 7, 2010 7:27 PM PST up reply actions  

his skills were distinctly spotty

Mark DeRosa: the rare utility player who can provide some utility.

by oldjacket on Mar 7, 2010 7:28 PM PST up reply actions  

The same way you distinguish any skill from non-skill

If some players are significantly better at it than others, if players’ past records are at least partially predictive of their future record, and the effect can be plausible explained as skill, then it’s probably a skill.

Whether it is streaky or non-streaky is independent of this.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

by iglew on Mar 8, 2010 12:38 AM PST up reply actions  

Then we’re in agreement. It’s the “unpredictive” (non-repeatability) part of BABIP departures that makes it a non-skill for most pitchers.

Mark DeRosa: the rare utility player who can provide some utility.

by oldjacket on Mar 8, 2010 7:51 AM PST up reply actions  

greening this

its all that needed to be said, really

by PL78 on Mar 7, 2010 8:18 PM PST up reply actions  

obviously, you are not a lover of squirrels.

sock puppets have never successfully defended castles. -nm

by Leopold Bloom on Mar 8, 2010 9:26 AM PST up reply actions  

2 more very significant factors in BABIP rates

would be:

Quality of field
Quality of gloves

I think these would have been really big factors in high BABIPs in the dead ball era, and I think larger fields would actually lead potentially to higher BABIPs, not lower. Back in 1915, even major league fields were really badly maintained — bumpy outfields with patches of brown, uneven infields with pebbles. And the gloves were really gloves — you used two hands on everything because you couldn’t grab the ball with just your glove hand. So if a hitter just made contact, he stood a pretty good chance of getting a hit. At the same time, even if you really crushed a ball, it was pretty likely to be a BIP, since it was common for the CF fence to be well over 450 feet from the plate, and ballparks with short dimensions often had very high walls (e.g., Fenway, Baker Bowl, Shibe). Nowadays, many of the best-hit drives are taken out of BABIP calculations.

One question about old BABIP counts — is there any way to distinguish between inside-the-park HRs and ground-rule HRs in old stats? ITPs are so rare now that they don’t affect BABIP calculations, but back in the dead ball era they were much more common, so I don’t think we can assume that an HR in 1915 wasn’t a BIP.

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Mar 8, 2010 8:42 AM PST up reply actions  

I think you misread what I wrote

BABIPs were quite low in 1915. Players hardly ever struck out or hit home runs (well, actually, they didn’t walk much either— this is one of the reasons why batting average became a popular stat!). For the most part, a guy’s BABIP was right around his batting average.

Apparently the horrible, spit-and-shoe-polish-covered quality of the balls outweighed whatever impacts were favoring high BABIPs.

One thing that WAS common in the “ancient era” was reaching on an error, however. Errors were all over the place back then. No doubt BABIPs would look a lot higher if you accounted for the fact that rates of reaching on errors were probably twice or three times what they are today. That effect is going to swallow up most of the effect of bad gloves and some of the effect of poorly-kept fields.

Large parks are indeed good for BABIP, though bad for offense generally. The majors don’t have any extreme parks in this direction, but you can see some examples of it in college ball (Texas and Virginia come to mind).

Shawn Spencer: "I’m receiving a transmission from your husband. Really more of a voicemail, if I'm being honest. A status update. Perhaps a twitter."
Burton Guster: "I believe it’s called a tweet."
Shawn Spencer: "There’s no way I’m saying that."

by PaulThomas on Mar 8, 2010 9:17 PM PST up reply actions  

Another finding

Nico’s second bullet point is almost certainly true, but it doesn’t go to prove the point that BABIP isn’t a skill. All it shows is that everyone in the majors has the same basic range of that skill. If I pitched anywhere in professional baseball, my BABIP would be astronomical. (My knuckleball couldn’t even cut it in high school.) But the question is not whether major leaguers differ from guys who wash out at A-ball — the question is whether they differ from each other.

by doctawojo on Mar 7, 2010 2:43 PM PST reply actions  

Just checking:

If x+y=9, then x is 4, right? OK, good.

-Cindi

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Mar 7, 2010 3:39 PM PST reply actions  

The notion of x and y being an item

is a total rumor Cindi! Don’t believe the hype sistah!

"By the end of the year, I'll have Dallas throwing right-handed'' -Ben Sheets

by mrod on Mar 7, 2010 4:48 PM PST up reply actions  

My social living teacher says y and y can be an item,

but she’s a little out there. And by out there, I mean “stop counting attendance so much in your grade, lady!!!”

-Cindi

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Mar 7, 2010 5:41 PM PST up reply actions  

heh..

:q

"By the end of the year, I'll have Dallas throwing right-handed'' -Ben Sheets

by mrod on Mar 7, 2010 5:44 PM PST reply actions  

I thoroughly enjoyed this thread.

I have nothing to add, but the whole BABIP thing is a bit of a sticking point for me because it does go against what I intuitively believe. That said, the numbers are solid and I can’t find any ways to poke holes in them. I can’t see how or why the numbers would be wrong here, so I accept them.

My solution: Acquire a bunch of TTO pitchers. Everybody is a strike out, walk, or HR and we don’t have anything to worry about!

www.zekeishungry.com

by thejd44 on Mar 7, 2010 8:56 PM PST reply actions  

Henry Rodriguez!

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Mar 7, 2010 9:06 PM PST up reply actions  

squirrels!

sock puppets have never successfully defended castles. -nm

by Leopold Bloom on Mar 7, 2010 10:00 PM PST reply actions  

I love this thread, too!

A very serious and well thought out argument, each poster addressing points made by the interlocutor. And meanwhile, there’s little LB running around in circles playing with squirrels. The image is absolutely priceless.

A Ballade [for the Angels Fan], by Eustache Deschamps: "We are cowardly, ill-formed and weak / Aged, envious and evil-spoken. / I see only fools and sots / Truly the end is nigh / All goes ill."

by paris7 on Mar 7, 2010 10:07 PM PST up reply actions  

Woh dude.

You never play with squirrels. Chase them certainly, but never play with them.

Leopold Bloom on why he loves Mr. Peter Gammons, his best buddy:
"Peter Gammons systematically ignored and/or ran down the A’s in the pages of Sports Illustrated and The Sporting News for a good ten year stretch in the late seventies and early to mid-eighties. Trust me, the c**ksucker hates our team."

by DMOAS on Mar 7, 2010 10:13 PM PST up reply actions  

Awwww, Daaaad.

A Ballade [for the Angels Fan], by Eustache Deschamps: "We are cowardly, ill-formed and weak / Aged, envious and evil-spoken. / I see only fools and sots / Truly the end is nigh / All goes ill."

by paris7 on Mar 7, 2010 10:15 PM PST up reply actions  

The Leopold Bloom Squirrel has been assassinated

We will stay with this story all night if we have to….

by DeJay on Mar 8, 2010 2:41 AM PST up reply actions  

I think the other thing that is important to note

is that there are plenty of pitchers whose BABIP skills vary significantly from the league average. The problem is that it leads to them being bad at baseball. Therefore they are replaced before they have enough time to suck for an entire year which is why you don’t see a lof of players with 400 BABIP over any serious sample size.

"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Mar 8, 2010 1:03 AM PST reply actions  

I agree, and this is what I suggest in my second bullet point

Which is actually an asterisk. Why an asterisk? Because there wasn’t a 5-day waiting period to use one.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Mar 8, 2010 7:57 AM PST up reply actions  

If you use bigger bullet points, there's no waiting period.

They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick

by mikev on Mar 8, 2010 8:15 AM PST up reply actions  

I agree with Nico and Paul Thomas...

they’re both right.

"I’m actually a disgrace to myself right now." - Sean Gallagher (quoting me after a night out on the town)

by FoolshGame22 on Mar 8, 2010 1:56 AM PST reply actions  

I agree

So all 3 of us are right!

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Mar 8, 2010 7:58 AM PST up reply actions  

I don't agree with
Quite frankly, I doubt whether pitchers actually DO have the ability to control their BABIP for short stretches— I mean, if they did, why wouldn’t they be able to control it for longer stretches?

Life is filled with things that aren’t sustainable over long periods. Pitchers use different pitches in situations. The conclusion may or may not be true, but the reasoning is flaccid.

by JetSam on Mar 8, 2010 12:25 PM PST up reply actions  

Name some of these things that are not sustainable over long periods

Shawn Spencer: "I’m receiving a transmission from your husband. Really more of a voicemail, if I'm being honest. A status update. Perhaps a twitter."
Burton Guster: "I believe it’s called a tweet."
Shawn Spencer: "There’s no way I’m saying that."

by PaulThomas on Mar 8, 2010 9:18 PM PST up reply actions  

(and yet are actual skills, obviously)

Shawn Spencer: "I’m receiving a transmission from your husband. Really more of a voicemail, if I'm being honest. A status update. Perhaps a twitter."
Burton Guster: "I believe it’s called a tweet."
Shawn Spencer: "There’s no way I’m saying that."

by PaulThomas on Mar 8, 2010 9:20 PM PST up reply actions  

Nico, I've read your post a couple of times and I'm not quite sure what the thrust of your argument is

Could it be summed up by the phrase ‘Pitchers sometimes have really good games’?

I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.

The ninth fastest thirty year old in San Francisco

by bobnothing on Mar 8, 2010 8:31 AM PST reply actions  

Please don't forget the squirrels, bob.

sock puppets have never successfully defended castles. -nm

by Leopold Bloom on Mar 8, 2010 9:27 AM PST up reply actions  

No, it's that pitchers do control BABIP to a certain degree in certain ways at certain times,

but ultimately not a great deal. And that Leopold Bloom should store his nuts for Winter.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Mar 8, 2010 11:22 AM PST up reply actions  

hmmm

to be a skill, it has to be repeatable. on command. if something is short term control or short term skill, then it sounds an awful lot like luck to me. unless you can prove that the pitcher has a lower median babip or a lower deviation around that mean over a reasonable period of time.

at the end of the day, babip seems more useful in describing why someone had a rough/excellent stretch than being predictive of the future. again unless you can prove a lower median and/or deviation around that babip mean.

by stm72 on Mar 8, 2010 12:18 PM PST up reply actions  

said another way...

if you have an average of outcomes, then by definition some of the readings are below the average and some are above. it doesn’t mean that the actor controlled the results. you haven’t proved causation.

by stm72 on Mar 8, 2010 12:22 PM PST up reply actions  

Right

In order to prove causation, you need some kind of evidence of “chaining” of the kind iglew mentioned above— some proof that results in one iteration favorably impact results in the iterations immediately surrounding it.

Asserting such is, to say the least, wildly speculative at this point. There is no positive reason to believe that it is true.

Shawn Spencer: "I’m receiving a transmission from your husband. Really more of a voicemail, if I'm being honest. A status update. Perhaps a twitter."
Burton Guster: "I believe it’s called a tweet."
Shawn Spencer: "There’s no way I’m saying that."

by PaulThomas on Mar 8, 2010 9:23 PM PST up reply actions  

Outside of nouveau baseball statistics

does that definition of skill exist anywhere?

by JetSam on Mar 8, 2010 12:28 PM PST up reply actions  

it has to apply everywhere...

your heart surgeon can’t go oops. the person cutting your hair can’t go oops. you must have long term skill or it’s luck.

by stm72 on Mar 8, 2010 12:33 PM PST up reply actions  

Huh?

“to be a skill, it has to be repeatable. on command.”? Where in the world do you get the idea that this is the definition of “skill”?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Mar 8, 2010 4:07 PM PST up reply actions  

said another way...

if its not repeatable, then its not useful for say…pitching.

if its not controllable (i.e. summonable on command), then it’s not useful for say…pitching.

if its not repeatable or controllable, then you may wanna consider a career in something or than say…pitching.

by stm72 on Mar 9, 2010 10:53 AM PST up reply actions  

Whoa, there.

How about free throw percentage? Every professional basketball player has the skill to make a free throw, but they can’t do it 100% of the time, on command. How about a piano player who has to play a set of extremely difficult measures that he can only do 80% of the time? Does that mean he’s not a skilled piano player, just lucky?

Taken down with hearts alive, our hearts alive.

by danmerqury on Mar 8, 2010 5:45 PM PST up reply actions  

And then there's the monkey who types the complete works of Shakespeare

No, it’s not especially relevant; I just mean there he is. Oh, never mind, he just left.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Mar 8, 2010 7:05 PM PST up reply actions  

c'mon dude. that's not my point and you know it.

if the average person can only do it 1% of the time and he can do it 80% of the time then there’s skill involved. if you can shoot a free throw consistently at 80% then its a skill. it’s repeatable and you have a demonstrated track record.

if you can control babip sometimes but not most of the time and you can’t demonstrate that its repeatable, then what else would you call it?

by stm72 on Mar 9, 2010 10:49 AM PST up reply actions  

Are you saying they can decide when to control BABIP?

or just ‘that certain circumstances occur when the pitcher is pitching in such a way that a batted ball is significantly less likely to land rather than be made into an out’?

if it’s that they can decide, why wouldn’t they do it all the time?

I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.

The ninth fastest thirty year old in San Francisco

by bobnothing on Mar 9, 2010 1:37 AM PST up reply actions  

No they can't decide when to control BABIP,

and of course they’d like to control it all the time. But the game is EVER CHANGING, so what worked for a stretch of time may not continue working as hitters adjust (and health changes, and so on).

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Mar 9, 2010 11:35 AM PST up reply actions  

I hate Mondays

that is all.

You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}

by micdog2001 on Mar 8, 2010 10:40 AM PST reply actions  

BABIP is IMPOSSIBLE for a pitcher to control!!!!

Let’s do a thought experiment. Imagine that some pitcher comes out of the bullpen and is utterly dominant. The are so dominant that they fan all but 10 batters of the 27 in the game, and those ten batters all hit weak ground balls in the infield. The offense gets 3 hits, simply because some of the dribblers were too slowly hit to make a play on (bear with me and assume all three guys were eventually thrown out by Kurt Suzuki).
Now take another pitcher – actually, since this is a thought experiment, let’s say we have the same exact pitcher who threw the same exact 115 pitches over the course of the game as the pitcher in Example 1. The only difference in this case is the offense – he is pitching against Team X instead of Team Y. Team X also manages to make contact 10 times, but, fortunately for this pitcher, the defense was able to make every play – resulting in a perfect game. Now, it what conceivable way could we say that the second pitcher exhibited more skill than the first pitcher? They threw the same pitches but had different outcomes – outcomes that were completely out of the pitcher’s control. We could of course substitute Team X and Y for Ballpark X and Y, Defense X and Y, or any number of factors people have mentioned that would alter BABIP but would have no direct bearing on the quality of pitches thrown. A pitcher with identical performances will almost always display different BABIPs. There is no way for a pitcher to know that a given pitch with skill factor x will produce a dribbler that can be converted to an out vs. a dribbler that bleeds in for a single. Hence, BABIP is impossible to control.

by smokelanda on Mar 8, 2010 11:05 AM PST reply actions  

??? You have simply proven that

BABIP can’t be all skill, not that it must be all non-skill. And I think we already all agreed on that.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Mar 8, 2010 11:21 AM PST up reply actions  

Hmmm... I think we are sort of talking past each other.

How can you hold skill constant and still say that it’s having an effect? Any variance left over after skill is controlled would, by definition, be noise, right?

by smokelanda on Mar 8, 2010 11:29 AM PST reply actions  

Nico's right, this only proves that BABIP is not entirely under the pitcher's control

which is somewhat obvious; I mean, even strikeouts are not entirely under the pitcher’s control.

The variance left over after skill is controlled is noise, but that’s (slightly) less variance than is observed in the real world.

Shawn Spencer: "I’m receiving a transmission from your husband. Really more of a voicemail, if I'm being honest. A status update. Perhaps a twitter."
Burton Guster: "I believe it’s called a tweet."
Shawn Spencer: "There’s no way I’m saying that."

by PaulThomas on Mar 8, 2010 9:26 PM PST up reply actions  

Because of measurement error?

I don’t follow that last part. Is it a skill or not? To me the whole point of the BABIP is that a pitcher can only control what he does. He cannot directly control the agency of the batter, defense, park effects, etc. Once the ball is out of the pitcher’s hand, by definition, the pitcher has no control – there are just too many factors at work. Even the batter only has partial control over what happens once he decides to swing. All else being equal, a pitch released with given skill factor x, swung at with skill factor y in a park with effects z against a defense with effects w configured in manner v will produce either no outcome (a strike or ball) or an outcome that is more or less randomly distributed (some batters pop out, some ground out, some hit a homerun). Pitchers cannot control BABIP anymore than they can control the outcome of a randomly distributed variable.

by smokelanda on Mar 10, 2010 12:27 PM PST reply actions  

You don't think how they throw the ball might have something to do

with how it’s hit a second later?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Mar 10, 2010 9:37 PM PST up reply actions  

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