Who is Tyson Ross?
by batterbatter on Mar 18, 2010 9:16 PM PDT
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PrintI am embarassed to admit that I have very little knowledge of who Ross is. I notice that his name has popped up in a few publications touting him as a good prospect. So, is he? He is pitching well in spring training but is he an over the hill minor leaguer or is he capable of performing well in the majors? Is he an integral part of our starting rotation in 2011/12 or will he be used as a reliever? AN, please chime in.
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2nd round pick in the 2008 draft.
throws hard, bad motion.
good prospect, not great.
he’ll be tried as a starter as long as it’s working.
Went to CAL.
GO BEARS
With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery
That helps
I assumed he was a frozen chicken.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Ross was voted by AN to be our #12 Prospect before Desme retired.
So he would be our 11th Prospect right now.
He's our Inverted W friend.
"Cheese is the fruit juice nature intended."- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Mar 18, 2010 11:20 PM PDT reply actions
His nickname should be "M"
"Cheese is the fruit juice nature intended."- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Mar 19, 2010 10:00 AM PDT up reply actions
Somebody hold me.
I’m scared. Really, really scared.
"You're just jealous. You wish you had a rally animal..." -CardinalWraith
by Boonee on Mar 19, 2010 2:35 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Another really annoying thing about that motion
(aside from the fact that his arm is going to fall off pitching that way) is that if he took a real stride, not only would he throw harder, but he’d be letting go of the ball at least 6 inches closer to the plate, maybe more like 12. He’s throwing softer than he needs to and putting the ball in the air over a longer distance than he needs to. All while hurting him arm.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
The Triple Crown of dumb!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
And for all we know he'd do all that with significantly less control
Leopold Bloom on why he loves Mr. Peter Gammons, his best buddy:
"Peter Gammons systematically ignored and/or ran down the A’s in the pages of Sports Illustrated and The Sporting News for a good ten year stretch in the late seventies and early to mid-eighties. Trust me, the c**ksucker hates our team."
True, but his current motion looks so bad for his arm that I think it's a better risk to take
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Maybe
I don’t know. If it’s going to damage his arm, it’s already done. I’d gamble on what’s left of his arm for however long we have it. Keep in mind people thought Harden’s delivery looked smooth and fluid yet it was really very violent on his arm. I’m definitely not going to go out on a limb and say Ross’ delivery is the opposite, but who knows, maybe it simply works with his body. No way to tell and I’m not one to mess with success until there’s a real, concrete reason for it.
Leopold Bloom on why he loves Mr. Peter Gammons, his best buddy:
"Peter Gammons systematically ignored and/or ran down the A’s in the pages of Sports Illustrated and The Sporting News for a good ten year stretch in the late seventies and early to mid-eighties. Trust me, the c**ksucker hates our team."
I think a good deal of the damage is cumulative
so that the longer he pitches this way, the more damage he does; some damage is probably traumatic, but in that case the longer he pitches this way, the greater the chance that something will ‘snap". If what he’s doing is objectively dangerous, then his motion should be fixed.
As far as messing with success is concerned…Ross has never even pitched in AAA, and has only 50 IP in AA. All he has at this point is potential, and if he’s an injury waiting to happen, what’s the point of giving him all those starts?
Keep in mind people thought Harden’s delivery looked smooth and fluid yet it was really very violent on his arm. I’m definitely not going to go out on a limb and say Ross’ delivery is the opposite, but who knows, maybe it simply works with his body. No way to tell and I’m not one to mess with success until there’s a real, concrete reason for it.
Yes, people liked Harden’s motion, but unfortunately were not comparing “safe” with “dangerous”, we’re just comparing varying degrees of danger here. I have no training in human anatomy or kinesiology or anything, but I’m pretty convinced that even the best version of the standard pitching motion is terrible for your arm.
If you have 20 minutes, I’d recommend you take a look at this cool video by Dr. Mike Marshall (the 1974 Cy Young winner who threw over 200 IP out of the Dodgers’ bullpen that year), who is sort of a lonely crusader against the standard pitching motion (or, if you believe most folks in MLB, a loudmouthed nutball). He summarizes the main injury risks of the standard pitching motion, and illustrates his points with super-slow-motion video of his own pitching motion. Maybe someone with more background in this can explain to me why he’s way off base, but I find his stuff persuasive and very interesting to watch.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Success isn't necessarily measured by making it to the Majors
He’s pitched through college to this point and was good enough to be draft relatively early on with this motion. There are a couple of things that bother me about changing his motion other than the fact that it’s worked for him for so long. When you’re body isn’t used to doing something, it’s going to be slow to recover and adapt to something new. So changing his mechanics may have the side effect of causing serious muscle strain in areas that were not used before or are being used in different ways than they are now. On top of that, it’s hard to determine whether his current motion, while being pretty violent looking, is actually significantly worse than a more typical motion. Neither one of us is in a position to measure how much (if at all) changing his motion will increase or decrease his injury risk. And without hard evidence of this, my position is to stick with what’s working regardless of concern over his health. This doesn’t mean you don’t handle him with kid gloves or entirely ignore the injury risk. Btw, I’m not saying you’re wrong in any way, just that my preference is to take a different gamble than you while looking at the same variables.
Leopold Bloom on why he loves Mr. Peter Gammons, his best buddy:
"Peter Gammons systematically ignored and/or ran down the A’s in the pages of Sports Illustrated and The Sporting News for a good ten year stretch in the late seventies and early to mid-eighties. Trust me, the c**ksucker hates our team."
What would count as hard evidence?
I’m obviously not an expert, but Ross does a number of things in his motion that people who really do understand how the human body works say are a very, very bad idea. Is there anything you can think of that would count as “hard evidence” short of him going on the DL with a bad arm? At which point, he’s already started doing significant damage to his arm. It sounds to me as if you’re saying that you’d never make adjustments to a good pitcher’s motion until after he’s injured himself.
As far as his success is concerned, my point is that we’re not talking about a Mark Prior here: a guy considered a once-in-a-generation talent who would have been the #1 pick if the Twins hadn’t been scared off by his contract demands, who immediately dominated in the majors — and a guy whose motion had a lot of the same flaws as Ross’s, and who destroyed his arm after a couple of years. Ross isn’t close to that level of talent. If he takes an extra year or 2 to reach the majors after adjusting his motion, so what?
And I think the idea that changing his motion will injure him is pretty far-fetched. If he’s supervised responsibly, I don’t think there’s any reason for that to happen. He could still get hurt, but the chances of injury with a biomechanically better motion would be lower than with his current motion. And he’d probably throw harder, since he’d be using his body more efficiently.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
I'm not discounting what experts think of his motion
I see two probable results:
1) He doesn’t change his motion. Within a couple of years he’s in the majors doing “okay”. Within the next 5 or 6 years his arm all but falls off (metaphorically speaking) at which point if he’s going to keep pitching he’s going to not only go through some pretty serious rehab, but also have to change his mechanics to limit the strain on his repaired arm. His recovery is questionable.
2) He changes his motion. He spends the next couple of years trying to do that while battling cascade injuries as a result of putting his body through the stress and strain of re-training itself to pitch in a different, yet still damaging motion (which a more typical motion is). He then spends another year or two playing catch up trying to make the majors. His success is indeterminable. At which point, in 2 or 3 years, the damage already having been done, his arm all but falls off (still metaphorically speaking) at which point if he’s going to keep pitching he’s going to go through some pretty serious rehab. His recovery is questionable.
Scenario #1, we might get 3 or 4 seasons out of him. Scenario #2 maybe a year or two. There’s an argument that’s been made in the past (something I ascribe to) that damage is cumulative and not something that you can undo once it’s done. (I’m admittedly poorly phrasing the argument). If Ross will wind up with a serious injury either way, I’d bank on getting the max out of the arm before it goes bad rather than attempt to change things, cause more issues, all while not actually preventing what’s likely to occur either way. You show me hard evidence that changing his motion will actually prevent a serious injury from the occurring (not simply saying that’s going to happen with his current one), then yes, having him change now is the way to go.
Leopold Bloom on why he loves Mr. Peter Gammons, his best buddy:
"Peter Gammons systematically ignored and/or ran down the A’s in the pages of Sports Illustrated and The Sporting News for a good ten year stretch in the late seventies and early to mid-eighties. Trust me, the c**ksucker hates our team."
by DMOAS on Mar 20, 2010 4:47 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think you're being incredibly optimistic about #1 and pessimistic about #2
Why is he probably going to last 5 or 6 years with an incredibly damaging motion? His arm could fall off before he even reaches the majors. There’s no reason to think it’s likely that his arm injuries are going to be someone else’s problem.
And on the other hand, you’re just assuming that changing his motion will lead to cascade injuries. Who says this is likely to happen? “If Ross will end up with an injury either way…” Who says he will?
You show me hard evidence that changing his motion will actually prevent a serious injury from the occurring (not simply saying that’s going to happen with his current one), then yes, having him change now is the way to go.
That’s the second time you’ve used the term “hard evidence” and I still have no idea what you mean. What exactly would satisfy your demand for “hard evidence” of what’s going to happen in the future? And if it’s a kind of evidence that’s impossible to provide, are you just saying that you would refuse, as a matter of principle, ever to change a pitcher’s motion until after he’s injured, or until he’s proven he’s not any good?
My basic view is this: Ross is very unlikely to be anything special in the majors, because the vast majority of pitching prospects end up not being even average major-league pitchers. Odds are Ross won’t ever help the A’s. He’s using a dangerous, inefficient pitching motion. Teaching him a less dangerous, more efficient pitching motion will increase his (low) odds of being a productive player for the A’s. I think it would be fun to send him to Mike Marshall and see whether the Marshall approach can succeed with a talented young pitcher, but I understand why the A’s won’t even consider that.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Oakland kid,
went to Bishop O’Dowd High School and then Cal. I’ve talked to him a couple of times — he seems like a good kid.
Losing this team would be a huge failure for this city and an affront to Oakland’s great sports legacy.
Yup, this is why I really want to see him succeed.
Hopefully his mechanics don’t end up making his arm explode.
I AM VERY MUCH ENJOYING THE HITTING OF BASEBALLS AND SCORING OF RUNS. -mikev
only an asshole quotes himself. -mikev
IIRC he was an infielder in HS, then switched to pitching which is why his mechanics are so terrible.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
UNNATURAL.
Great pics as usual, and it really shows how fricken UNNATURAL that arm angle is. Just try and push BOTH of your elbows up that far above your shoulders at the same time.
I AM VERY MUCH ENJOYING THE HITTING OF BASEBALLS AND SCORING OF RUNS. -mikev
only an asshole quotes himself. -mikev
Yep.
I think it was Kyle Boddy at Driveline Mechanics who explained it like a bench press. When you lie down and put your hands on the bar, you want your biceps to be in the same plane as your chest, NOT bending down so your elbows are behind you.
Taken down with hearts alive, our hearts alive.
Dan you would know more then I
but I have also read that UNNATURAL delivery is suspected to contribute to his success. Mainly due to the deceptive appearance from home plate. One of the reasons teams were interested in turning him into a closer. Any truth to that and if so could ‘fixing’ to a more standard delivery also damage his ability to create outs?
"-i never said half the things i said." --Yogi Berra
If I had to guess
Converting to closer = less innings pitched = less chance of arm exploding
I AM VERY MUCH ENJOYING THE HITTING OF BASEBALLS AND SCORING OF RUNS. -mikev
only an asshole quotes himself. -mikev
Screw that.
Put him out there as a starter until his arm ’splodes.
Some motherfcukers are always trying to ice skate uphill - Blade.
Says Billy Martin...
"The only way I'm going to get a Gold Glove is with a can of spray paint." - Reggie Jackson
by the_rozeboom on Mar 19, 2010 10:52 AM PDT up reply actions
I guess that's something to weigh?
Just for fun, let’s say the arm explodes after 400 innings.
Do you want 2 years from a starter or 5 years from a closer?
I AM VERY MUCH ENJOYING THE HITTING OF BASEBALLS AND SCORING OF RUNS. -mikev
only an asshole quotes himself. -mikev
2 years from a starter, then send him for surgery.
Some motherfcukers are always trying to ice skate uphill - Blade.
2 years as a starter, them trade him.
"Life is a horizontal fall" -Jean Cocteau
by King Richard on Mar 19, 2010 9:29 PM PDT up reply actions
Hmm. I'm not really sure where the deception would come from, but I fear any possible deception would be short-lived.
Once batters adjusted to him, that is. Someone like Kilby has to use his butt-hiding deception because his stuff is pretty regular. If I remember right, Tyson Ross has electric stuff. I’d still like the odds better if we completely retooled his delivery.
Taken down with hearts alive, our hearts alive.
Awkwardness
Hitters are used to certain timing and release points. Any time there is an ‘unusual’ delivery it takes adjustments. Some pitchers toss the ball sidearm and some have hesitations in their delivery to throw off the norm. Not that you don’t already know that but I can only assume that is what they mean by awkward delivery. In saying that even from the seats this guys delivery looks strange.
"-i never said half the things i said." --Yogi Berra
Dice-K's hitch in his delivery is irritating to pick up.
Some motherfcukers are always trying to ice skate uphill - Blade.
Wasn't speaking completely on Ross
I was actually asking a question and tried to explain the question in more detail with that post. I’ve read reports that claim Ross unique delivery helps him to be effective. I suppose my question was if Dan agreed with that or not. It’s obvious he is overusing his arm which will increase the likelihood of injury.
"-i never said half the things i said." --Yogi Berra
it's true
i played in plenty of showcases with and against tyson in high school. it is really, really tough to see the ball out of his hand because his short stride for being a taller guy is kind of different than what you as a hitter would normally see.
also, his slider is very, very tough.
"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball
I pitched in high school but never, ever thought about my mechanics
Nor did anyone ever say anything about them.
One of these days I’m thinking of actually taping mine just to see what they look like, because I’m curious.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
I'm sure my throwing mechanics would blow my arm out if I had to
throw 100+ times at 90% effort.
Some motherfcukers are always trying to ice skate uphill - Blade.
My fastball tops 40 with 10% accuracy
It’s much like my typing on AN.
"-i never said half the things i said." --Yogi Berra
I'm so going into one of those fanzone sections
when I make my trip to America – I wanna see if I’ve got the stuff to make it as a big leaguer. :-P
Some motherfcukers are always trying to ice skate uphill - Blade.
Overhand is horribly unnatural, too.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Mar 19, 2010 10:37 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I just threw my neck out. Thanks.
Losing this team would be a huge failure for this city and an affront to Oakland’s great sports legacy.
{goes to dumpster, retrieves neck}
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
He seems to be lifting his right leg earlier in his motion and higher in his follow-through in your sequence there than in the earlier one above
That might be the minor adjustment the A’s made to his motion.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
but why are they making minor adjustments when he appears to need a major adjustment
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones."
-BB 07/27/05
I don't have an answer for that
With someone like Ross, I’d favor a really “big risk” approach. I half-jokingly suggested on the game-wrap that someone should show him some old film of Walter Johnson (a 6’4" sidearmer) and tell Tyson to mimic his motion. Over the past few years I’ve occasionally suggested that the A’s send someone down to Mike Marshall’s clinic in Florida to learn his pitching motion (which is similar to the old Outman family motion). I wish the A’s had tried something like that, because as good as Ross’s numbers can look, I have to assume that his arm is going to fall off pretty soon.
Ziegler learned to throw submarine over the course of 2 or 3 seasons. Imagine how good he’d be if he had Ross’s raw talent.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
to me
it looks like his left arm/elbow isn’t going as high as the animation posted earlier. That might reduce the chance of injury while keeping up the deception. but maybe I’m just seeing it wrong.
You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}
I agree about the animation, but in the still his left elbow is well above eye level
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
yes
but he pitches with his right arm ;-)
When I did the inverted W in my office chair it hurt but when I did an inverted V with just one arm it wasn’t as bad. It might not make a difference though.
You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}
It makes a huge difference.
It’s pretty easy to raise one elbow that high, because the rest of your body naturally compensates.
Doing BOTH elbows is what starts causing damage.
I AM VERY MUCH ENJOYING THE HITTING OF BASEBALLS AND SCORING OF RUNS. -mikev
only an asshole quotes himself. -mikev
I'm not sure when any adjustments were made
But the pics I took were from last June.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
There's some kind of weird optical illusion in that photo sequence
which is making it look like he’s throwing the ball 50 feet into the air…
I think it’s the sunlight glinting off the background. It’s totally disconcerting, though.
Shawn Spencer: "I’m receiving a transmission from your husband. Really more of a voicemail, if I'm being honest. A status update. Perhaps a twitter."
Burton Guster: "I believe it’s called a tweet."
Shawn Spencer: "There’s no way I’m saying that."
I see what you mean
For me it’s that light behind the blue tent just as he lets go.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Brett Wallace was thrilled to be trade for by the A's, and was crushed when the A's drafted Weeks over him
then we traded the guy…. so…
Wallace was really looking forward to working in ST with his idol Eric Chavez
I liked the trade for Taylor. But goddamn that sucked for Wallace.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
Yeah - even though you can see the merit of trading Wallace for Taylor I was still gutted by the trade. Especially because Wallace had already had to go through the disappointment of being passed over for Weeks. It is almost like we screwed him over twice
It would have been nice just to let him play a season or even a game in an A’s uniform. Obviously Beane has no time for sentiment but fingers crossed Ross doesn’t suffer the same fate.
has he worked on his mechanics much?
unless he changes his throwing motion, i see no way his arm lasts very long. is he still throwing the same way this spring? i know we’re MLB’s MASH unit and whatnot, but you have to imagine the organization is making some effort to fix his mechanics up.
watched Ross pitch yesterday
was @ ST and watched him pitch vs. D-backs – 3 IP 7K 1BB
pretty solid, and after hitting Upton, settled into nice groove that they struggled with.
also a really nice guy; signed a ball I’d brought, and then noticed that one of my SD cards for my camera had fallen down behind the tarp. grabbed it and handed back to me.
hope the mechanics get straightened out just enough to save the arm but not ruin the ability that’s there…
felt bad for Wallace as well, but really liked what I saw of Taylor yesterday…
"I saw a curveball, that’s about it," Rangers’ manager Ron Washington said. "You can’t take anything away from the kid; he went seven innings, but it wasn’t any shutout stuff." - Ron Washington on Gio's performance and the 7 k's.
real nice guy
and loves the a’s…i was going to say something like what dejay said a couple posts up but they pretty much covered it.
"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball
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