A's moving from Kansas City to Oakland a "Major Mistake"
by xbhaskarx on Mar 16, 2010 8:12 AM PDT
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PrintAccording to Baseball Analysts: Moves of the Expansion Era
1968: Kansas City A's to Oakland
Apparently, being an average market team wasn't enough. Once in Kansas City, the Charlie O. Finley started looking around for a new home which would earn them even more revenue. Perhaps he had not seen that the San Francisco Giants were struggling at a below average clip themselves. It wouldn't take a genius to see that adding another team to that market wouldn't be the smartest of all ideas. But nevertheless, the White Elephants moved westward once again. Oakland did indeed prove to be a tough market. Throughout much of their time there, they have hovered at around 80% of a typical team's gate. They stand today as the team with the 2nd worst fan base (behind the Florida Marlins). Meanwhile, the Royals are about at the middle of the pack. KC hasn't put a good product on the field for quite some time, but once we account for that, the fans come out at an average rate. Overall, the A's would have been much better off staying in Kansas City, and perhaps even sticking it out in Philadelphia rather than moving to the already saturated San Francisco market.
Verdict: Major Mistake
Two others:
1955: Philadelphia A's to Kansas City
Verdict: Success
1957 New York Giants to San Francisco
Verdict: Major Mistake
But that's New York City vs Kansas City...
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I know this won't be a popular opinion here, but...
…I agree with this conclusion. Don’t get me wrong, I love the A’s, and grew up with the Oakland A’s, but when I force myself to look at it objectively I cannot come to any other conclusion than the A’s move to Oakland was a boneheaded mistake.
In all the reading and research I’ve done into the subject I believe there are several reasons why Charlie Finley wanted out of Kansas City and why he chose Oakland, and not all of his reasons are sound or logical.
Pitching and defense wins pennants, but offense sells tickets.
Actually, I think that many of us would agree with this conclusion. But I think that many of us would also agree that “sound and logical” (aside from his eye for baseball talent) are not necessarily words that would be associated with Charlie Finley.
"The only way I'm going to get a Gold Glove is with a can of spray paint." - Reggie Jackson
by the_rozeboom on Mar 16, 2010 9:50 AM PDT up reply actions
Finley is the best or second best GM in history
Too bad he owned the club too. He could have done even better with a boss over his head, especially one who wasn’t as much of a tightass as he was.
"Cheese is the fruit juice nature intended."- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Mar 16, 2010 10:23 AM PDT up reply actions
I do too.
Like you said, when I force myself to look at it objectively, that’s really the only legitimate conclusion.
Taken down with hearts alive, our hearts alive.
They never should have left Philly.
They should have marketed aggressively and hired a scrappy manager and tried to drive the Phillies out of town.
"Cheese is the fruit juice nature intended."- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Mar 16, 2010 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions
that would ha ve worked
Seeing how bad the phillies have been.
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury
by Future Ed on Mar 16, 2010 4:52 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Historically...
…the A’s pretty much always outdrew the Phillies. Just happened that the Phillies actually put together a better team and gained some popularity around 1950 and outdrew the A’s for a change.
Add to that the fact that, in the early 50s, the A’s were not being run by Connie Mack anymore, but his two sons… two bickering idiots that couldn’t work toward a common goal to save their lives.
Add to that the fact that this was also the first era of franchise moves, and it was more a situation of immediate circumstance for most teams, not so much long-term history or long-term prospects.
The A’s were a victim of circumstance in a short window of time. Had things fallen slightly different, chances are they would have stayed and the Phillies would have moved.
Pitching and defense wins pennants, but offense sells tickets.
Also the A's were pretty much garbage since Foxx left the team.
That was the mid 30s. So by 1950, they were basically what the pirates are today.
"The A's get some action but they do not score..." -Glen Kuiper
"Anyone who calls themselves the Angels Angels should have to start over and ride the short bus." -timmeh from McCovey Chronicles
Or...what the Pirates were in the early 1950s
The Pirates had some dismal W/L records in those years.
Some of the Philadelphia bluebloods wanted to buy the Athletics, fix ’em up, but the Yankees (esp George Weiss) would not allow new Philly ownership.
Awaiting the start of the 2010 season!
by One won lost won on Mar 19, 2010 11:13 PM PDT up reply actions
Interesting graph.
What do the two troughs in the green line on the first graph have in common with its plateau? Oh yeah, they correlate strongly with the words Finley, Haas, and Schott/Hoffman/Wolff.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
even in the haas years it was never really above "1" and far below the kansas city royals...
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones."
-BB 07/27/05
True.
But if you extend out the Haas line it’s as least as good as the Royals of ‘96-’06.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Look at what that says, though
At their peak the A’s were winning exactly 60% of their games from 1988-92 (486-324) and the attendance puts them right about on par with what the Royals have had since 2000. Their record over that 96-06 period? 741-1037 (.417).
I know it’s a slightly different baseball era being about a decade later and after the strike, but that’s rough.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
There's a whole discussion related to this
ref to the Drumbeat post this morning (she alluded to it, anyway): http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/athletics/detail?&entry_id=59176
And how perhaps another team (or three more teams) in the NYC metro area is what is needed to keep the Yankees’ money from overwhelming everyone. With the A’s potentially having to buy out the gnats territorial “rights” to SJ, this could set the precedent for teams moving in general, but perhaps one moving to NYC. Apparently, Gammons mentioned the Rays as a candidate, given their payroll constraints and the sorry state of their stadium. If we can’t get a salary cap done, I would endorse this to keep the Yankees from being the de-facto royalty of baseball.
Links:
http://baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=10258
http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/archives/2010/01/jersey_rays_pip.php
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
Everything is better with bacon.
if the A's move to NYC
i’m moving there too
by OakA'sHoney on Mar 16, 2010 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions
Let's just put all the teams in NYC
because the whole f’n world revolves around NYC.
I really really really dislike New York and would like to see it destroyed in World War III.
"Cheese is the fruit juice nature intended."- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Mar 16, 2010 11:09 AM PDT up reply actions
awww, that's not nice
you can hate the yankees, but not nyc : )
by OakA'sHoney on Mar 16, 2010 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions
I don't hate the Yankees.
Just the city they play in, and the people who live there that think they’re the best people in the best city in the world, and the whole rest of the country is just cow towns.
"Cheese is the fruit juice nature intended."- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Mar 16, 2010 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions
Well, to be fair....
by comparison, the rest of the cities in the U.S. are cow-towns next to NY. It never ceases to amaze me that a city can actually have 30K cops….and need everyone of them plus some.
"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer
Can you warn me before that happens so I can get out of first?
What you fail to understand in your joyless myopia is that baseball is the key to life-- the Rosetta Stone, if you will. If you just understood baseball better all your other questions your, your... the, uh... the aliens, the conspiracies they would all, in their way be answered by the baseball gods.
by winchester5 on Mar 16, 2010 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions
got a survival fetish, huh?
"Cheese is the fruit juice nature intended."- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Mar 16, 2010 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions
yeah, its a weird problem.
What you fail to understand in your joyless myopia is that baseball is the key to life-- the Rosetta Stone, if you will. If you just understood baseball better all your other questions your, your... the, uh... the aliens, the conspiracies they would all, in their way be answered by the baseball gods.
You've got a well-stocked fallout shelter, right?
"Cheese is the fruit juice nature intended."- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Mar 16, 2010 9:39 PM PDT up reply actions
new york's alright
If you like saxophones
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury
by Future Ed on Mar 16, 2010 4:54 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
First we take Manhattan,
"Cheese is the fruit juice nature intended."- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Mar 16, 2010 9:41 PM PDT up reply actions
My theory is
Leonard Cohen had a bunch of his money invested with Madoff, which is why he had to tour this year. Probably a bunch of people did the same thing.
I still have the “Songs of” LP at work.
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury
Theory? I thought that was the reality?
I know he’s touring ‘cause he’s broke.
"Cheese is the fruit juice nature intended."- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Mar 17, 2010 7:04 AM PDT up reply actions
haven't read much about it
just thought it and then moved on.
now I am thinking doughnuts are tasty.
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury
I'll go with you
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
Everything is better with bacon.
by cuppingmaster on Mar 16, 2010 11:33 AM PDT up reply actions
This is a demographic issue plus rambling
A look at the major metropolitan area populations:
New York-Northern New Jersey-Long Island, N.Y., N.J., Conn., Pa. 21,199,865
Los Angeles-Riverside-Orange County, Calif. 16,373,645
Chicago-Gary-Kenosha, Ill., Ind., Wis. 9,157,540
Washington-Baltimore, D.C., Md., Va., W.Va. 7,608,070
San Francisco-Oakland-San Jose, Calif. 7,039,362
The New York metro area has close to three times the population of the two smallest Metro areas with two teams. Tampa metro has 2.7 million.
The problem with columns like the one posted here is that it bends statistics to prove its point. The Giants’ numbers in San Francisco were impacted by two factors…first, that its ballpark, Candlestick, was a wretched place from Day One, inaccessible by public transportation; next door to a ghetto; and most importantly, with utterly horrible weather; and that within a decade, Charlie Finley peeled off potential East Bay and Sacramento fans with the move of the A’s to the Coliseum.
The A’s situation is more complex. The fan base probably wasn’t sufficient to make the move to Oakland. Finley should have moved to San Jose to begin with. But once he was here, a fan base did grow, and the Haas family showed that a successful team, with proper promotion, could be viable. A new stadium, in Oakland, would almost certainly move the A’s back to the Haas levels or above.
The real flaw in the arguments for team movement concern actual fan support. It takes several years, if ever, for fans to change allegiances. Any move by the Rays to Northern New Jersey would probably look like a mistake for quite a while. Yankee fans won’t suddenly switch to the Rays; and Mets fans won’t even blink. Lew Wolff will have similar issues in San Jose because so many of the supposed new fans will come from Giants territory - not legal Giants territory but from an area that doesn’t give a shit about the AL or the A’s. Further, the Giants will not, at least for a generation, gain fans from the East Bay or Marin who are A’s fans. Won’t happen.
That’s why Fremont was so perfect, in some ways, and San Jose is not: Fremont acknowledged the current fan base while building a new one. The San Jose park, when it’s new, will get a lot of people the first two years. But then, the struggle will commence. Fifteen years from the day the stadium opens, I think the A’s will gain their fan base. But it will take a long time.
I agree with quite a lot here
But I wouldn’t say this statement with nearly the certainty you show:
A new stadium, in Oakland, would almost certainly move the A’s back to the Haas levels or above.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
There's always, or almost always, a bump
If the A’s open a stadium in San Jose, which is noticeably Giants territory, why would people suddenly flock there?
Answer in both cases: a new stadium
Was SJ even a legit city in 1968?
"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer
Nunbers yes, mindset no
By 1970, San Jose had nearly 100k more people than Oakland. It took another 20 years for the city to start shaking its cowtown image.
Yeah but SJ also has a larger area.
I could draw a line around the Bay Area and call it a city. What was the population in and around Oakland in the same radius as SJ in 1970?
"The A's get some action but they do not score..." -Glen Kuiper
"Anyone who calls themselves the Angels Angels should have to start over and ride the short bus." -timmeh from McCovey Chronicles
That's hard to say
Many South Bay cities did a lot of annexation in the 50’s and 60’s, including San Jose. The fact is that well over 400k were within SJ’s city limits, not an arbitrary line. I don’t think that at any point post-WWII did SJ approach Oakland’s density. Oakland’s no stranger to the annexation concept – they just did it at the turn of the century.
...I know.
"The A's get some action but they do not score..." -Glen Kuiper
"Anyone who calls themselves the Angels Angels should have to start over and ride the short bus." -timmeh from McCovey Chronicles
Bingo!
Oakland had a new stadium. San Jose didn’t have a place for his team to play. The new stadium was one of the biggest reasons Finley chose Oakland over several other options.
Root for the Giants? Not even if they're playing al-Qaeda!
Quote from the article linked a couple weeks back in the DLD
From the SI vault
Article date April 1, 1968 (a couple weeks before the debut of the Oakland A’s)
Oakland must contend not only with outside cities trying to attract its teams, but with the competition that exists within its own magic concentric circles.
And a new lion is also prowling around—San Jose. A flaccid, sprawling urban adolescent, San Jose possesses people in abundance. Not bound by geography, as San Francisco (pop. 750,000) is, or trapped by suburbs that reject it, the way Oakland is, San Jose may well grow into the third largest city in California. Though it is hardly 30 miles south of Oakland, San Jose will soon be wanting its own teams to put itself on the map.
by gojohn10 on Mar 16, 2010 8:13 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
if it's just a demographic issue, why did the a's fare better in kansas city than in the bay area?
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones."
-BB 07/27/05
I also...
…agree with quite a bit of this. In fact, probably all of it. And if the projections for population growth continue to pan out, that would put the Bay Area on par with Chicagoland. 10-million aught to be enough to support two teams, and a normative housing market would suggest a greater percentage of future home sales in the Inner Easy Bay.
"With Chance on first, and Evers on third,
Great things from the Cubs will soon be heard."
This is just wrong
But once he was here, a fan base did grow, and the Haas family showed that a successful team, with proper promotion, could be viable. A new stadium, in Oakland, would almost certainly move the A’s back to the Haas levels or above.
The Haas family was running the team at a personal loss. Their business plan was unstable and wouldn’t have survived the huge rise in player costs.
While I don’t disagree with the tough sell to the fans in Northern Jersey, I do think there are a number of casual fans who would flock to root for a team of their own. Keep in mind this is a state that has two football teams playing there but calling themselves NY. And only two sports teams with a NJ name. They get treated pretty poorly by NY. Give them their own team to root for and they’ll show up if it’s good. Maybe not right away, but it wouldn’t take long, especially if you’ve a got good core to work with.
Leopold Bloom on why he loves Mr. Peter Gammons, his best buddy:
"Peter Gammons systematically ignored and/or ran down the A’s in the pages of Sports Illustrated and The Sporting News for a good ten year stretch in the late seventies and early to mid-eighties. Trust me, the c**ksucker hates our team."
Yes and No to Jersey
Baseball fans in the New York area are notoriously fanatic. I suspect most North Jersey fans are Yankee fans (simply because the Bronx is more accessible than Queens), and this means you’re asking Yankee fans to change allegiance to a team in the same division.
The Haas model was unworkable in the sense that it couldn’t keep up with player salaries. The Haas model in terms of promotion was workable, and that’s where the previous and current owners of the A’s have fallen on their faces.
The thing about the NY area
Is that it’s just so big and so diverse that there are a lot of people who aren’t from the area. 21 million people. Not all of them are Yankee or Mets fans. I’d offer that not even half of them are. And while the majority of baseball fans in the area (definitely the majority of hard core baseball fans), that still leaves you with one gigantic mass to cater to who will come see and eventually root for another team. There are a lot of fans just because of proximity and there are a lot of fans priced out of Yankee stadium. So there’s a lot of room to work with to establish a foothold.
As for the Haas thing with promotion/marketing. I’m not so sure it’s that cut and dry. The thing I’ve questioned is what’s the net balance of how much is necessary to run that sort of promotion and effort and how much gain the team gets in terms of attendance and added revenue. I suspect the reason why no one has followed that model is that the gain is marginal at best (and possibly loses money).
Leopold Bloom on why he loves Mr. Peter Gammons, his best buddy:
"Peter Gammons systematically ignored and/or ran down the A’s in the pages of Sports Illustrated and The Sporting News for a good ten year stretch in the late seventies and early to mid-eighties. Trust me, the c**ksucker hates our team."
Are you from the New York area?
…or are you making this up as you go along? I’m from New York. Baseball fans in New York are Mets fans or Yankee fans. And they’re fanatics. The idea that there’s this underrepresented group of baseball fans who will glom on to the Rays without a second thought…that’s really strange and runs counter to everything I know about New York. I think a Jersey team could make it, though, but it would be tough. They’d have to hang tight for a while..
Give me a ballpark number of how many non-Yankee/Mets fans you see in the area out of, say 100.
The number is incredibly small, I have no doubt about that. The area is hugely dominated by their fans. But I find most people who think in these sorts of absolutes are baseless. While, no I haven’t lived in the area, I’ve known non-Yankee/Met fans from there. Some are haters of both teams. To say it doesn’t exist is ludicrous. We’re talking about 21 million people and even 1% is something to work off of. Difficult, absolutely, but very possible. This is an area that used to have 3 teams playing in it and one of them wasn’t the Mets, but the reality is, they don’t even have to be fans of the new team. If the Rays go there, they have the small base to start with. They have a huge number of games against the Yankees & Red Sox and they’ve got the casual fan priced out of Yankee stadium looking to see American League teams. That alone will likely match what they’re currently getting. NYers like a winner. And if they win, they’ll show. Are they going to lead attendance any time soon, no. Will they be a financial powerhouse like the Yankees, no. The point is, they don’t need to. I’m not arguing that a new team in the area will become another Yankees, just that they will likely be as successful as they currently are outside of NY and in doing so, take a small chunk of market share from the Yankees/Mets.
Leopold Bloom on why he loves Mr. Peter Gammons, his best buddy:
"Peter Gammons systematically ignored and/or ran down the A’s in the pages of Sports Illustrated and The Sporting News for a good ten year stretch in the late seventies and early to mid-eighties. Trust me, the c**ksucker hates our team."
Non-Yankee, non-Mets fans
Well, there are still some Dodgers fans around and some Giants fans. People with long memories, and their kids.
The fact is that a National League team would, I think, do better in the area than an American League team. There are National League fans who hate the Yankees and don’t love the Mets. The problem is that American League fans, if they hate the Yankees, who would they root for? The Sox? That wouldn’t happen.
And unlike the West Coast, where people come and go, New Yorkers generally stay for life, particularly outside Manhattan. It’s a far more stable existence than we have here. And people root for teams for life. This is something the Nets found out on Long Island, and why they moved to New Jersey. The Islanders’ struggle has been hard, because the Rangers were so popular.
I think the demographics of New York suggest a third team. But it would take a long time for the team to take root, and for quite a while, I think, it would be functioning like a small market club - which would put it in a definite hole compared to the Yankees. On top of that, because of the battle between the Sox and Yankees, and the inability of a third AL East team to compete on a regular basis, people would be hard-pressed to root for a transplanted AL club.
I’d say that not only would it be a mistake to move an AL club to anywhere on Long Island, but it would be a mistake to move an AL club anywhere close to the City itself. I think the suburbs outside Newark would work, drawing fans from the rest of Jersey, and also bringing AL fans from the Philadelphia area.
Now move the Rays to the NL East (and, say, the Marlins to the AL East), and change their name to the Brooklyn Robins, and the Mets would be fucked.
The Rays have a very very long lease on Tropicana Field.
Getting out of that might not be easy.
"Cheese is the fruit juice nature intended."- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Mar 18, 2010 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions
The whole point in moving the Rays
Would be to directly compete with the Yankees. So, you would need to draw in the Yankee haters, who may or may not be Mets fans. If you could get a portion of Mets fans, a portion of Phillies fans in NJ, and whatever Boston transplants are in the area, you would have a big fan base to draw in, which would then dilute the current Yankees power.
I agree on one point though, and would take it further: I tend to think that no matter what team moved to NYC, the Mets would be fucked in their current form.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
Everything is better with bacon.
by cuppingmaster on Mar 18, 2010 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Muck the Fets!
I’m calling it Heas!
"Cheese is the fruit juice nature intended."- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Mar 18, 2010 4:14 PM PDT up reply actions
One of those two sports teams you mention
is moving to Brooklyn anyway, and it will be interesting to see how many Nets fans will follow.
IME people from Jersey have a lot of pride in their state and would like to support it. There’s also a lot of Atlantic League and MiLB support. If the hypothetical new ownership could tap into that “Jersey pride” (it really does exist, I promise) with good community outreach they could do just fine.
New Yorkers also like underdogs, believe it or not, and if the new management followed the A’s general MO and kept Beane around, they might just tap into that. There’s always Yankees haters to be found, and Mets fans are not all that happy with their recent collapses.
It’s not a bad idea, but that means moving someone out of the east (your Portland Rays?)
"I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."- Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti
"What do I want you to do? What are you doing in the National League?"- John McGraw
"117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"- carp (paraphrased)
by natteringnabob on Mar 19, 2010 7:58 AM PDT up reply actions
Can't agree
The analysis skirts the real determining factor of attendance: the quality of the venue. All of the moves marked “Major mistake” or “Wash” involve teams that eventually resided in multipurpose stadia. Conversely, Kansas City was awarded an expansion franchise which conveniently moved into a gleaming, new, preapproved, baseball-only stadium – a rarity at the time. I’ll posit that if Royals Stadium were built in Oakland and the Coliseum were built in KC (to be shared with the Chiefs), the A’s and Royals’ attendance records would’ve trended far differently over time. We probably wouldn’t have nearly as much talk about moving the A’s, either.
According to the 1970 Census, KC’s metro population was 1.4 million, while the Bay Area was 3.6 million. Over the next 40 years, KC grew to 2 million while the Bay Area has doubled to well over 7 million. The mistake was not in predicting a market’s growth, the mistake was in settling for a suboptimal stadium situation.
by vertig0 on Mar 16, 2010 12:02 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
I don't know if I would say that the quality of venue is the "real" determining factor
Back in the day, the Coli wasn’t such a bad place. It was new, it had a nice view of the hills, and even though it was shared with the Raiders, it was good for baseball. The Mount Davis era, age, and the deterioration of the adjoining neighborhood have been bad for it. I’m not sure Kaufman stadium was really appreciably better then or even before its recent renovation. Also, like OaklandSi says below, Oakland was the logical place then because San Jose was mostly a bedroom community. It’s still a logical place to some extent, but with San Jose in the picture it looks less and less so by the day.
Also, venue isn’t everything. Of the bottom half teams in attendance last year, fully 10 of them are considered to be in newish stadiums. No one really shows up to Nats and Pirates games much, either, despite good parks.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
Everything is better with bacon.
by cuppingmaster on Mar 16, 2010 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Attendance is like Hall of Famers
It has to be judged within it’s own era.
There are many reasons people do, or do not, go to baseball games. These days, stadiums are a huge determining factor. But that doesn’t mean that winning every once in a while isn’t.
The Pirates have always sucked wind in the attendance department. A new stadium boosted their attendance, but you can’t go on a 20 year losing streak and feign surprise when no one (okay more like only 21k) shows up.
I honestly think that the Pirates are circumstantial evidence in the “trial” of Oakland. New park, similar attendance results. There is little reason to think that wouldn’t happen in Oakland.
Even if a new stadium in Oakland brought “Haas like numbers,” comparatively speaking Haas had more years below the median attendance than above.
Either way, I don’t care if it was a mistake… I am inclined to think it was (especially since both the A’s and Giants struggled at the gate for the better part of 3 decades). I am still happy the mistake was made :)
by jeffro on Mar 16, 2010 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
The Pirates are a suck-ass organization
You’d be hard-pressed to find, in recent years, a more poorly-run franchise than the Pittsburgh Pirates. There’s no question that a losing team doesn’t draw like a team that’s been winning for several seasons. But the Pirates - gee. You can’t compare what’s happening in Pittsburgh with elsewhere because there’s simply no other team like them.
I am looking at one right now
and it calls home in the same complex the A’s and Raiders do.
Not to mention the Raiders.
I'll have a sandwich and a draft(sic). - Bill King (RIP)
Except they draw like a team that's been winning for several seasons
The one in the arena, that is.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Let me clarify
Quality of venue isn’t just its measure as a ballpark inside the walls. You mention the surrounding neighborhood, which is important. There is no neighborhood around Truman Sports Complex, which made it perfect for the white flight suburbanites in the KC metro in the 60’s-70’s. That was a huge advantage over Oakland. Ewing Kauffman and George Brett brought tremendous stability to the Royals, while the A’s had boom-bust cycles in the Finley and Haas eras.
Is KC a baseball town? It’s hard to say. It’s definitely a football town. The author makes an error in saying that the market has been above average in attendance. That’s not entirely true. The A’s were only above average the first two seasons in KC, the rest of their tenure was well below average. The Royals spent 4 seasons at old Muni before they moved into their new digs, and in none of those seasons did they pull 1 million fans (all were below AL average as well). The Royals Stadium era coincided with the emergence of George Brett, bringing two decades of stability to the franchise. However, Brett was only a rookie when the ballpark opened, so the franchise rode the novelty stadium wave until Brett became Brett. As a result, the Royals never averaged less than 1 million per season during that era (always above AL average). The triple hit of Kauffman’s death, Brett’s retirement, and the new baseball economy in the 90’s relegated the Royals to becoming have-nots.
So what happened is that a new stadium made it possible for a better ownership situation to come into play. It doesn’t happen all the time, obviously, but it’s all that a fan can ask for. In some cases the owner can make the stadium happen through private financing, but that’s few and far between.
the Royals came on strong early too
they finished second in 71 and didn’t lose 90 games again until 1992.
"I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."- Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti
"What do I want you to do? What are you doing in the National League?"- John McGraw
"117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"- carp (paraphrased)
by natteringnabob on Mar 19, 2010 8:04 AM PDT up reply actions
I’m not sure Kaufman stadium was really appreciably better then or even before its recent renovation.
If you mind my opinion, it’s fantastically better than the Coliseum is today.
Aside from your point, which i more or less agree with, the problem with attendance and fan support is that it’s broken into several groups.
You’ve got hardcore fans who go to games and buy merchandise no matter what the cost or what the team is doing. You’ve got your average fan who’ll go to as many games as they can, but more when the team wins and they’ll buy the merchandise they think is cool. There’s the passing fan who might have once bought a hat, only goes when the team is 30 games over 500 or when they’re friends call them names if they don’t. Then of course, there’s the non-fan who goes to games for entirely different reasons and probably doesn’t spend a cent on merch.
When you combine all those groups together and get 40k (or whatever number you’re shooting for) a game, then you’ve got a solid “fanbase” and group of people that can financially support a sports franchise. The A’s have essentially never had that in Oakland, and when you’re comparing attendance numbers to KC, you know you got a problem.
Nick Swisher is handsome.
I visited KC before their renovations and I'd rate that version over the Coliseum, too
Even the Coliseum before Mt. Davis.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
seems that if the Baltimore/DC and Chicago areas can carry an NL and AL club
(and the Chicago area has three clubs, two of which are in the same NL division), there shouldn’t be any reason why the Bay Area can’t have an AL and NL club.
As for Oakland being a “mistake” — everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. However, given that Oakland was and still is the central transportation hub of the area and the most logical place for fans from all over the area, I don’t see why it should be considered a mistake.
And that’s not getting into the emotional aspects of this…
It doesn't matter if it's a logical place
What matters is if fans show up. And so far, in Oakland, they haven’t shown up as much as they have in KC.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
It's not as simple as raw population numbers.
The west coast, especially the bay area, is not a hotbed of baseball like many places in the midwest and east coast are.
I don’t think it’s even fair to compare attendance numbers from 40+ years ago to today, either. At least in terms of raw attendance numbers. Today, baseball is more of an entertainment thing, marketed to and patronized by people seeking entertainment, which is why venue plays such a larger part today than it used to. The actual serious baseball fan at a game is relatively small. As just one example, if it were just baseball then the Giants’ attendance numbers at Candlestick vs AT&T would be more comparable.
Pitching and defense wins pennants, but offense sells tickets.
Wait, so Milwaukee is in the Chicago area again?
I thought we settled that in the Gammons thread with SneakyButy.
If Milwaukee is in the Chicago area, then Philadelphia is in the New York City area.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
if you are the MLB it is ;-)
aren’t A’s games blacked out in Vegas?
You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}
I wonder if aggregate baseball attendance has peaked
and if the sport is just sliding down the slow slope to obscurity.
"Cheese is the fruit juice nature intended."- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Mar 16, 2010 12:40 PM PDT reply actions
the rest of us are sliding down that slope too
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
Everything is better with bacon.
by cuppingmaster on Mar 16, 2010 12:50 PM PDT up reply actions
Stick a fork in the human race. It's done...
It just doesn’t know it yet.
"Cheese is the fruit juice nature intended."- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Mar 16, 2010 4:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Ow!
But baseball! Fuck yeah! -- lynnzgal
by WaddellCanseco on Mar 17, 2010 7:53 AM PDT up reply actions
attendance peaked in 2007
at 79.5 million, right before the recession.
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones."
-BB 07/27/05
Here's a fun fact:
The Turkish Elite League, a soccer league, has 18 teams. Without boring you with all the minor Turkish cities in which some teams are located, I can tell you that FIVE of those teams are in Istanbul and three are in Ankara. Four of those five Istanbul teams finished in the top half of the league.
The English Premier League has 20 teams, located as follows:
London 5
Birmingham 2
Blackburn 1
Manchester 2
Burnley 1
Liverpool 2
Hull 1
Portsmouth 1
Stoke 1
Sunderland 1
Wolverhampton 1
New York has a similar size relationship to other American cities that London and Istanbul have to other English and Turkish cities. Yet New York astoundingly has only two baseball teams.
Maybe the solution is to move multiple teams to New York, not just one.
Shawn Spencer: "I’m receiving a transmission from your husband. Really more of a voicemail, if I'm being honest. A status update. Perhaps a twitter."
Burton Guster: "I believe it’s called a tweet."
Shawn Spencer: "There’s no way I’m saying that."
The AL West, the AL Central, and the AL NYC
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
Everything is better with bacon.
by cuppingmaster on Mar 16, 2010 1:11 PM PDT up reply actions
I actually like the idea
Not because I hate the Yankees, ok I lied. The only reason being is I hate the Yankees.
"-i never said half the things i said." --Yogi Berra
That's overkill
Folks in Northern New Jersey would, I think, support a team. It’s possible a team in Brooklyn, particularly a National League team, could work. But its popularity, similar to the Mets, would remain on the east side of the Hudson, so it wouldn’t benefit all the fans who go out to New Jersey Devils or New York Nets games.
The New Jersey Rays would work. But no more.
Then the A's would become Fulham...
which they pretty much are already.
"The only way I'm going to get a Gold Glove is with a can of spray paint." - Reggie Jackson
by the_rozeboom on Mar 16, 2010 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions
great, that's the team i root for because of brian mcbride and now clint dempsey
i’m following the premier league closely for the first time this year…
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones."
-BB 07/27/05
Why did you post a highlight of an Arsenal-Portsmouth game... ?
Shawn Spencer: "I’m receiving a transmission from your husband. Really more of a voicemail, if I'm being honest. A status update. Perhaps a twitter."
Burton Guster: "I believe it’s called a tweet."
Shawn Spencer: "There’s no way I’m saying that."
because it was a great goal?
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones."
-BB 07/27/05
did you not see the comment above it?
“i’m following the premier league closely for the first time this year…”
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones."
-BB 07/27/05
I'd have preferred the video of the goalie
who scored on his own goal during a goal kick… while kicking it away from the goal. Those quirky German winds.
Leopold Bloom on why he loves Mr. Peter Gammons, his best buddy:
"Peter Gammons systematically ignored and/or ran down the A’s in the pages of Sports Illustrated and The Sporting News for a good ten year stretch in the late seventies and early to mid-eighties. Trust me, the c**ksucker hates our team."
I'm partial to the one that deflected into the goal off a beach ball that some idiot threw onto the field
Shawn Spencer: "I’m receiving a transmission from your husband. Really more of a voicemail, if I'm being honest. A status update. Perhaps a twitter."
Burton Guster: "I believe it’s called a tweet."
Shawn Spencer: "There’s no way I’m saying that."
Maybe someone can use this method
to increase their HR totals in Anaheim.
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury
I'm still apparently missing something here
Shawn Spencer: "I’m receiving a transmission from your husband. Really more of a voicemail, if I'm being honest. A status update. Perhaps a twitter."
Burton Guster: "I believe it’s called a tweet."
Shawn Spencer: "There’s no way I’m saying that."
arsenal are a football team, they play in the english premier league
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones."
-BB 07/27/05
Yes, and they apparently scored a good-not-great goal at some point
I’m still waiting for the shoe that’s actually vaguely relevant to anything to drop…
Shawn Spencer: "I’m receiving a transmission from your husband. Really more of a voicemail, if I'm being honest. A status update. Perhaps a twitter."
Burton Guster: "I believe it’s called a tweet."
Shawn Spencer: "There’s no way I’m saying that."
so the point of all this is you don't think it's a great goal?
well that’s your opinion, but if you google samir nasri goal porto i’m sure there will be far more hits that consider it a great goal than good-not-great.
The Guardian, third search result: “Samir Nasri notched a goal of remarkable virtuosity”
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones."
-BB 07/27/05
okay then here is a highlight from a more relevant game
dempsey goal sends fulham into europa league quarterfinals
video here
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones."
-BB 07/27/05
Oops. The above was in reply to PT's London comment.
"The only way I'm going to get a Gold Glove is with a can of spray paint." - Reggie Jackson
by the_rozeboom on Mar 16, 2010 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions
And meant for those of us who are Premiership fans...
"The only way I'm going to get a Gold Glove is with a can of spray paint." - Reggie Jackson
by the_rozeboom on Mar 16, 2010 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions
my realignment plan basically consists of adding new teams to big baseball markets plus a few relatively easy opponents for the a's
36 team league, 6 divisions with 6 teams each:
ALE
current 5
+ Brooklyn, NY
ALC
current 5
+ Milwaukee Brewers
ALW
current 4
+ Portland
+ Las Vegas
NLE
- Atlanta Braves
+ Boston
+ Newark, NJ
NLC
- Milwaukee Brewers
+ Atlanta Braves
NLW
current 5
+ Los Angeles
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones."
-BB 07/27/05
Looks good. Let's do it!
"The only way I'm going to get a Gold Glove is with a can of spray paint." - Reggie Jackson
by the_rozeboom on Mar 16, 2010 6:51 PM PDT up reply actions
There was no sarcasm in that at all... or maybe there was.
"The only way I'm going to get a Gold Glove is with a can of spray paint." - Reggie Jackson
by the_rozeboom on Mar 17, 2010 7:31 AM PDT up reply actions
That's a pretty ugly scenario
That’s going to drastically water down competition.
Leopold Bloom on why he loves Mr. Peter Gammons, his best buddy:
"Peter Gammons systematically ignored and/or ran down the A’s in the pages of Sports Illustrated and The Sporting News for a good ten year stretch in the late seventies and early to mid-eighties. Trust me, the c**ksucker hates our team."
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones."
-BB 07/27/05
what is this supposed to prove?
That power has fluctuated over time but other offense has remained the same? Wouldn’t you rather use a pitching stat as a measure of the dilution of competition?
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
Everything is better with bacon.
by cuppingmaster on Mar 17, 2010 12:05 AM PDT up reply actions
4 Leagues
AL — Red Sox, Yankees, Brooklyn Superbas, Orioles, Rays, Indians, Tigers, Blue Jays
NL — Mets, Phillies, Nationals, Braves, Marlins, Pirates, Reds, Harlem Patroons
Central — Twins, Brewers, Cubs, White Sox, Cardinals, Rockies, Astros, Rangers
West — Mariners, Giants, San Jose A’s, Dodgers, Angels, Padres, Diamondbacks, Pasadena Royals
12-13 games within league. 3 games against teams outside league. 162 games.
12 Team Playoffs — College World Series
Top 2 teams within each league make playoffs
3rd Place teams play each other and 2 qualify for playoffs
Japan Series Winner makes playoffs.
Japan Series Loser plays champions of other leagues — Korea, Taiwan, etc.
But baseball! Fuck yeah! -- lynnzgal
by WaddellCanseco on Mar 17, 2010 8:11 AM PDT up reply actions
I haven't had time to think about this
but I LOVE it.
Do this please
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury
That mimics the pre- Stoneham/O'Malley idea
of elevating the PCL to major league status, which would have worked much more smoothly than what they ended up doing by accident/shotgun wedding.
I would improve that by breaking into 4 divisions of 4 teams each per league, with balanced schedules, bringing pennant races back. Want in the playoffs? Win a pennant.
It also gives the flexibility to keep the “central” teams you’ve lumped together in their traditional leagues (with the Brewers, of course, going back to the AL).
"I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."- Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti
"What do I want you to do? What are you doing in the National League?"- John McGraw
"117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"- carp (paraphrased)
by natteringnabob on Mar 19, 2010 8:11 AM PDT up reply actions
The Football Association is run on merit.
Well, more or less. They didn’t choose to to assign the teams to certain places. If they did Newcastle Utd, Leeds Utd and probably one of the Sheffield (Utd or Wednesday) teams would be in the Premiership at the expense of Fulham (they may be in London, but they’re a tiny club) and two of Burnley/Wigan/Bolton and Blackburn.
Speaking of which, you missed out Bolton and Wigan, both of which are in Greater Manchester. Wolverhampton are basically in Birmingham too – something like 10 miles away.
Some motherfcukers are always trying to ice skate uphill - Blade.
Yes, I agree that NY should have 4 teams:
Yankees
Mets
Brooklyn Superbas
Northern or West Manhattan
Also Southern California should have another team — Pasadena? Ontario?
But baseball! Fuck yeah! -- lynnzgal
by WaddellCanseco on Mar 17, 2010 7:55 AM PDT up reply actions
If there was another one (I'm not certain it would work out)
Somewhere on the Westside, Santa Monica would be it probably. Pasadena is way too close to Dodger Stadium.
You know what should be built on the WTC site instead of the gaping hole it is now? A baseball stadium for the Rays.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
Everything is better with bacon.
by cuppingmaster on Mar 17, 2010 9:22 AM PDT up reply actions
Santa Monica would probably not approve a stadium, but also that would ignore the
4 million people in the Inland Empire
But baseball! Fuck yeah! -- lynnzgal
by WaddellCanseco on Mar 17, 2010 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions
The Inbred Empire Mutants!
"Cheese is the fruit juice nature intended."- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Mar 17, 2010 12:32 PM PDT up reply actions
the slegnA would (rightly) have a better case
for territorial rights than the gnats do. I am pretty sure they draw a good portion of fans from San Bernadino/Riverside.
I know the numbers kinda support it, but I have no confidence in an IE team being successful at all. People are spread apart there, wayyyyy lower income than other LA areas, and shaky tax base.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
Everything is better with bacon.
by cuppingmaster on Mar 18, 2010 1:16 PM PDT up reply actions
that economy
has been devastated by the real estate collapse, a la Sacramento. They won’t be ready for a team for a while.
Portland might but they’re basically driving the Beavers out of town so they don’t seem to have political will for it.
"I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."- Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti
"What do I want you to do? What are you doing in the National League?"- John McGraw
"117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"- carp (paraphrased)
by natteringnabob on Mar 19, 2010 8:13 AM PDT up reply actions
All teams should be 100% road teams and do random barnstorming tours.
Pitching and defense wins pennants, but offense sells tickets.
I'm with you in spirit.
"Cheese is the fruit juice nature intended."- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Mar 17, 2010 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm in favour of any team called the Super Bras
Is this the real life-
Is this just fantasy-
Caught in a landslide-
No escape from reality-
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