Don't understand cutting Taveras
by Screamer on Feb 9, 2010 12:59 PM PST
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What was the point of sending him down for assignment and cutting him? Don't they owe him his 2010 salary? Wouldn't it have been easier to just cut Miles loose? I'm sure he was making less money, or am I wrong? Did Miles have more years than 2010? I know we got Rosales also from Cincy, but do we really think he's gonna turn into somebody we'll use?
Also, what are the rules of assignment anyways? Sometimes guys are just on minor league rosters and sometimes they have to cut 'em loose. Is it a seniority thing? Or a number of times designated thing?
I understand they're on waivers and teams can claim them, (Toronto claimed Eveland, right?) then we either put 'em back on the ML roster, trade 'em, or let them go, right?
Please help me understand... thnx
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Rosales was the whole point of that trade
His numbers in the Majors last year were pretty bad, but he has hit well in the minors. He can play all over the infield, including SS. And he’s 6 years younger than Aaron Miles (27 vs 33).
So we basically paid some cash (difference between Miles and Tavares salaries is around $2M) to upgrade our utility infielder. Not a huge move, but it makes sense to me.
Exactly
Miles and Tavares suck.
Rosales looks like he might be pretty good, at least as a backup, possibly as a contender for starting SS.
The Reds wouldn’t give up Rosales unless the A’s helped them save money. Taking responsibility for Tavares’s awful contract was part of the deal. The A’s got the Reds to take Miles bad contract, but don’t have room on the 40-man roster to keep Tavares around, so they DFA’d him.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Reds fans will disagree about Rosales
They say he was no use with Janish, signing Cabrera, and prospects Frazier, Cozart, etc.
He might be redundant to the Reds
but he’s worth something to other teams, and the Reds weren’t going to give him up without getting something they wanted in return. What they got in this case was a net of a couple of million dollars from dumping Tavares and taking Miles back (whom they also don’t need).
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
What Reds fans don't realize is that Rosales is likely better than Cabrera at this point
So is Pennington for that matter.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Feb 9, 2010 4:00 PM PST up reply actions
So why not just give the Reds cash?
And each team could have dfa’d their own respective bad contract anyway. I’m guessing there’s a level at which you can’t just trade a guy for cash? Cause sometimes you’ll see trades for “PTBNL or cash considerations”.
Maybe the Reds have some use for Miles?
Maybe the A’s thought they’d take a shot at flipping Taveras somewhere?
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Feb 9, 2010 9:07 PM PST up reply actions
Other than "frequent flyer" I'm not seeing a use for that guy.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I think Miles was brought to the Cards by Jocketty
Minus his year with the flubs, his numbers look pretty good for a utility guy. The eyeball test isn’t as good, but then again Rosales doesn’t do so well with that one either.
Jocketty likes Miles...
He wasn’t good enough to make the A’s, but I could see him being the 25th man on the Reds.
Celebrating my 5 year ANniversary... (SPWC/K56/ThePilotsDaredMeToDie/Gaijin_Suketto)
by Gaijin_Suketto on Feb 10, 2010 8:48 AM PST up reply actions
I imagine
Reds fans might say Rosales wasn’t good enough to make the team, but he’s good enough for the A’s.
I would trust the A's over a team that hires Dusty Baker to manage every single time
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Feb 10, 2010 11:21 AM PST up reply actions
One MILLION dollars!
I’m pretty sure that no trade can include more than $1M without permission from the commissioner.
Its less than $2M
The difference was $1.3M so thats the cost of getting Rosales. If/when taveras signs for $400k with another team, we will only owe the remaining $3.6M he is owed (I think), meaning the cost of getting Rosales will be $900k.
We are also getting money or a player for Eveland and that move is tangentially related as well so if its cash, that might also be worth factoring in to this analysis as well as the Gabe Gross/Ben Sheets cost analysis.
If you're going to subtract 400K from Taveras signing elsewhere, you should add 400K for Rosales being on the A's roster (if he is)
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Feb 9, 2010 4:01 PM PST up reply actions
Why?
That roster spot is going to be used anyway. If we didn’t have Rosales and were forced to go with, for example, Petit, we’d just be spending that same $400K on Rosales.
Because that 400 K is being spent whether they had kept Taveras or not.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Feb 10, 2010 11:22 AM PST up reply actions
That's a different $400K
than we’ll save when someone signs Taveras.
There was going to be a utility infielder. It might have been Petit, it will be Rosales. (It was not ever going to be Aaron Miles.) Whoever was going to fill that spot was going to cost at least $400K. Adding Rosales did not create an additional expense, it filled an empty position. Taveras never had a position. His salary (minus that of Miles) was what we paid in that deal. If he signs, the portion of his salary that the A’s will be paying drops by $400K.
Agree with Nate
We are going to spend $400k on whoever has that roster spot. We spent $900k so that this person would be Rosales and not Petit.
$900k is the cost of acquiring Rosales, not the cost of retaining Rosales. Retaining Rosales should be pretty cheap though and not add any additional costs over anything else we would have done.
I think Rosales’s salary is independent of the analysis of the transaction unless its used as a positive (ie its worth acquiring a young Major League ready talent who will be cheap for many years as opposed to having to sign expensive Free Agents to be your backup IF every year because Petit was never going to cut it).
When thinking about Tavares,
just think about taking a shit. Because that’s pretty much what the A’s did.
That rug really tied the room together...
by Streams Of Whiskey on Feb 9, 2010 1:50 PM PST reply actions
The A's ate too much bad Chinese food?
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
Bad Chinese Food..
comes out the other end. Bad Mexican Food on the other hand…..
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
by ST on Feb 9, 2010 8:13 PM PST up reply actions
...lives forever on the sides of your arteries...
Celebrating my 5 year ANniversary... (SPWC/K56/ThePilotsDaredMeToDie/Gaijin_Suketto)
by Gaijin_Suketto on Feb 9, 2010 10:15 PM PST up reply actions
I hope my backsplashes never cost me 2 million bucks.
Stewart: "What really needs to be clear is it wouldn't have mattered if there was an earthquake or not. We were going to beat the Giants.
Taveras
Why couldn’t the Reds just release Taveras like the A’s did? Then do a straight trade Miles for Rosales.
Yep.
The whole point of including Taveras in the deal is that Billy agreed to take on Taveras’s salary of $4MM.
Always the summers are slipping away.
Find me a way for making it stay.
Screamer, as far as your second set of questions,
Clubs get three years for each player where they’re allowed to put him in the minors from the majors and vice versa, called “option years”. Once a player has exhausted those three years, he no longer has any options left, and he’ll have to clear waivers in order to be sent to the minors again.
As far as Taveras, I have no idea if he has any options left, but I doubt the A’s wanted to bother wasting a Sacramento roster spot anyway.
Always the summers are slipping away.
Find me a way for making it stay.
Also, a player with 5+ years of mlb experience
can’t be assigned to a minor league team without his consent. As far as I can tell, Willy T. has 5 full years of experience, so he could either make the team release him or keep him on the 40-man roster. Either way he still gets paid, so if he thinks he can still get a shot in the bigs with a more team-friendly contract, there’s no reason to accept the minor league assignment.
Via Wikipedia: Link
Which is why the A's should have sent Crosby to the minors a year ago.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
This is only true if he has fewer than 5 years of mlb experience like Ginter
But baseball! Fuck yeah! -- lynnzgal
by WaddellCanseco on Feb 9, 2010 6:52 PM PST up reply actions
Ginter =/= loss of Nelson Cruz
That would only be true if he became good with the Brewers. But Cruz hopped around the majors for a while before becoming good. Same thing goes for Pena.
Cruz Overachieved
But, he didn’t really hop around the majors. he started in the Mets system. Traded to us for Jorge Velandia (huge win us!), then we traded him to the Brewers (our #10 prospect at the time) along with Justin Lehr for Ginter right after his career year. Then they traded him to Texas as part of the Carlos Lee deal. Then he bounced back and forth between AAA and Texas for a couple years.
So he never really hopped around the majors, more so the minors. Still I agree with Bud Light that that trade was bad from day one and then continued to get worse.
He was designated for assignment and cleared waivers, unless I'm much mistaken
Every team had their open shot at him, the same as with Carlos Pena.
Shawn Spencer: "I’m receiving a transmission from your husband. Really more of a voicemail, if I'm being honest. A status update. Perhaps a twitter."
Burton Guster: "I believe it’s called a tweet."
Shawn Spencer: "There’s no way I’m saying that."
I think you may be mistaken.
As I understand it, Milwaukee acquired Cruz from us as a minor-leaguer and kept him in AA and AAA, save for a September call-up in 2005. In 2006 traded him to Texas, where he remained a minor-leaguer until being called up in 2008.
I don’t think Cruz ever went through waivers like Peña did. Jason’s summary looks right to me.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
It's not possible for him to have spent large parts of all of 2005-2008 in the minors
unless he was either a. removed from a 40-man roster at some point or b. exposed to the Rule 5 draft in 2004.
Shawn Spencer: "I’m receiving a transmission from your husband. Really more of a voicemail, if I'm being honest. A status update. Perhaps a twitter."
Burton Guster: "I believe it’s called a tweet."
Shawn Spencer: "There’s no way I’m saying that."
OK
You say 3 years, but why did we have to lose Tommy Everidge?
When you take a guy off the 40 man,
They have to go through waivers, meaning another team with space on their 40 man can claim him. This situation is what enfolded with Everidge. It also is what is happening with Petit (and Eveland). Options simply mean a player on the 40 man can be outrighted to the minors (with some exceptions as mentioned above).
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
And we obviously did not value Everidge highly
as he was placed on waivers and passed through by the Mariners soon after he was picked up.
Well if we picked him up off the waiver wire
He’d have to go back on our 40 man roster, right? Which would kinda defeat the purpose of waiver-wireing him in the first place.
I don't know if it helps
but here is a story about waiver wire pickups. To tie it to the thread, the gem was Casey McGehee. He was plucked from the Cubs whose backup 3d base included Miles last season. Their starter, Aramis Ramirez, dislocated his shoulder. They also tried Fontenot and none other than Jake Fox there while McGehee was doing great for another team which is not to say that you shouldn’t be glad that Willy T is gone.
........
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/02/athletics-release-willy-taveras.html
If Taveras signs somewhere the A’s will have paid $2.6MM to get Fox and Rosales, while also giving up Jeff Gray, Ronny Morla, and Matt Spencer.
Good deal IMO.
Is this the real life-
Is this just fantasy-
Caught in a landslide-
No escape from reality-
Agreed
I think Beane did a nice job of leveraging some of the financial flexibility he had to acquire some potentially valuable players for the next several years. It certainly beats bringing in, say, Jamey Carroll or Jermaine Dye on a one year deal.
by CapgrasDelusion on Feb 9, 2010 8:51 PM PST up reply actions
Not really a bad thing
Of that group, Jeff Gray was probably the best, and before last year, no one here could figure out why he was on the 40 man roster. If he turns into a solid bullpen arm, well, thats that, but we already had a full bullpen. Spencer’s peak value was probably a backup LF/1B, and Morla’s claim to fame is PT having a mancrush on him.
I don't know about "good," exactly, but it's obviously at least within the realm of possibility
If Beane or the team scouts have a read on either of those guys as being better than the consensus opinion makes them out to be, then spending a couple mil and some marginal prospects to take a shot at them is worth it.
This is the sort of trade where saying “It’s Beane, he knows what he’s doing, I’m OK with it” makes sense, BTW. That logic really doesn’t wash with trades involving more high-profile, better-understood players.
Shawn Spencer: "I’m receiving a transmission from your husband. Really more of a voicemail, if I'm being honest. A status update. Perhaps a twitter."
Burton Guster: "I believe it’s called a tweet."
Shawn Spencer: "There’s no way I’m saying that."
I really like both Fox and Rosales
Fox has MASSIVE power if he reaches his potential, and Rosales’ minor league numbers really tickle my fancy.
I can’t find it, but I think Totalzone had an affection for Rosales too.
Is this the real life-
Is this just fantasy-
Caught in a landslide-
No escape from reality-
I think you greatly overrate Fox and his power potential
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Feb 10, 2010 11:23 AM PST up reply actions
All contracts in the MLB are guaranteed
So when you sign a guy for 4yrs at 40 million. you pay him that money for four years, no matter what, even when you release him. Its not like football where you are only affected that one year for a release, those contracts are not guaranteed. Thats why the Giants are pissed about the Zito contract, but they have to pay him that money now, whats done is done
There are exceptions to this. Not all contracts are 100% guaranteed.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Feb 9, 2010 9:08 PM PST up reply actions
Of particular note,
awards granted in salary arbitration are not guaranteed (although “settlements” between team and player to avoid arbitration may be).
Shawn Spencer: "I’m receiving a transmission from your husband. Really more of a voicemail, if I'm being honest. A status update. Perhaps a twitter."
Burton Guster: "I believe it’s called a tweet."
Shawn Spencer: "There’s no way I’m saying that."
if I remember correctly
the team can still release a player who is assigned a contract through arbitration, and only pay either a % or a certain figure before certain milestone dates. Something like before spring training, mid way, and before the season starts.
It happened last year with Rob Bowen
They terminated his contract and since it was part of a settled arbitration award he only got like 1/6 of his contract.
No body is giving a definate answer.
I don’t care about how much a team took off our hands and what we paid 2.6mm to get fox and rosales. All I want to know is how much are we paying Taveras to release him. If the answer is nothing, then why didn’t the Reds just do that in the first place?
The A's are paying Taveras 4 million, yes
But the A’s are being paid 1 million by the Cubs. So in a way they’re only paying him 3 million. If another team signs Willy T, they will pay 400k of his 4 million salary, reducing it to 2.6 million the A’s will pay Taveras (4-1-.4).
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
And, in addition to that, the Reds took on Aaron Miles' contract in the trade
So you also have to factor in that the A’s were on the hook for that anyway. They’re really only paying somewhere between $1-2 million here.
They believe that’s worth it to have Rosales.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Feb 9, 2010 9:10 PM PST up reply actions
For 5 years? Heck yeah.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
well
assuming they have him for 5 years, it would be 2 more years at the league minimum, meaning $800K, plus a few years of arbitration, probably adding up to somewhere in the 2-3 mil dollar range. In other words, Rosales’s salary alone over the next 4-5 years could easily eclipse Taveras’s offset salary, so it’s not as though they’re just getting him for 1-2 million “for 5 years” – it’s gonna end up more like 4-6 mil if he plays that long, and he could possibly earn more if he ends up being a stud. That said, them’s still cheap dollars.
I agree, Nico.
The reason I worded it the way I did was to make it clear to Mikey the reason why the A’s would do something like that.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Feb 10, 2010 11:24 AM PST up reply actions
I prefer to combine the Fox and Rosales acquisitions
Makes a lot more sense that way. The A’s are paying between 3.4 and 3.8 million to have those two on the team (counting their salaries and not counting Spencer, Morla, and Gray).
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
Spencer, Morla, and Gray?
I think I got sued by that firm once…
Celebrating my 5 year ANniversary... (SPWC/K56/ThePilotsDaredMeToDie/Gaijin_Suketto)
by Gaijin_Suketto on Feb 9, 2010 10:16 PM PST up reply actions
Spencer
is the only guy I would have liked to have held onto there – I know we have a glut of corner guys that can hit for power, but his bat seems like it could be for real. I bet he’ll be playing RF in Chicago in place of Fuck-u-dome by season’s end.
What a weird prediction
Fukudome is not only making a lot of money for this year and next, he’s a decent hitter. Spencer was 23 last year and only decent in 2/3 of a season of AA ball. He looks to be at least a year away, and I’m not sure he’ll ever be a starting COF in the majors. Give me Fukudome.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Feb 10, 2010 11:27 AM PST up reply actions
Can someone explain to me
why or how Gabe Gross is better than Willy Taveras?
I know they both suck Taveras is at least fast, both are left handed and can play all over the outfield. So how doe sit make sense to cut Taveras and pay him 4 mil and then sign Gross to .75mil?
Thats basically paying a bad 4th outfielder 4.75 mil
CHONE projects Taveras to have a .639 OPS.
Gross? .719. Taveras is in an entirely different circle of suck.
Always the summers are slipping away.
Find me a way for making it stay.
That's a sweetheart projection for Taveras
Considering he hasn’t reaches a .639 OPS since 2007.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Feb 10, 2010 11:30 AM PST up reply actions
Oh...my god.
He OPS’d .559 last year?! What the fuck, Reds?
Always the summers are slipping away.
Find me a way for making it stay.
Gross can play all over the outfield, too.
Taveras’ offense was so bad last year, his OBP was lower than Greinke’s OBP against. Think about that. Any pitcher who faced Taveras was basically better than the best pitcher in baseball. That’s really really horrible.
Also, Gross bats left-handed, so a platoon with Crisp could happen. Taveras bats right-handed. He’s basically a really, really bad version of Crisp/Davis.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Feb 10, 2010 11:29 AM PST up reply actions
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