Athletics Nation: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: MLB Trade Deadline: Who is available around MLB?

A PitchFX Look at Ben Sheets

If there's one key move that Billy Beane has made this offseason (out of what seems like a million) it's the acquisition of Ben Sheets. Beane went out and nabbed the biggest wildcard on the market. If that doesn't sound like classic Billy Beane, it's because, well, it's not. But Beane's never been one to sink into a predictable rhythm. Signing Sheets gives the A's a true ace at the top of the rotation to go along with our possible near-ace production from Justin Duchscherer and Brett Anderson, so now's as good a time as any to crack open the PitchFX vault again to try to get a clearer picture of our new frontline ace.

Star-divide

Let's get the basic stuff out of the way. Sheets throws a 93-mph four-seam fastball with huge "rise", an 84-mph changeup, and his famous 80-mph 12-to-6 curveball. Taken on its own, his curveball doesn't really drop all that much (three to four inches--compare to Zito's ridiculous ten-inch curve). More importantly, though, Sheets has a well above average 14-inch difference between his fastball and his curveball due to his fastball's abnormally large "rise". That fastball/curveball difference appears larger to hitters because Sheets's curveball comes in at an almost slider-like high speed. Throw in Sheets's impeccable command, and you have a pitcher who earns every bit of his career 7.60 K/9.

But Sheets's trickery doesn't end there. I picked a game to crunch PitchFX numbers for (his one-run complete game against the Braves on June 23, 2008), and this jumped out at me:

Sheetsarmslot_medium

Ben Sheets uses two distinct arm slots. To make sure it wasn't a one game error, I used Fangraphs's PitchFX game charts to confirm it. All throughout 2008, Sheets used two separate release points--an extreme overhand delivery mixed in with a more conventional three-quarters arm slot. And the kicker? His pitches were identical in both release points. That's incredible. Sheets is able to throw the same fastball and the same curveball from two release points, without any change in velocity or motion.

Sheetsrp_medium

Compare this to the James Simmons AFL PitchFX report I did, where I caught Simmons toying with a new arm slot. When James Simmons moved to a lower release point, he lost 5-10 mph on all of his pitches, with an increase in lateral movement. Granted, Simmons's release point change was more drastic than Sheets's, but I don't see any velocity penalty at all.

In short, Ben Sheets is what happens when you mix a deceiving control artist with solidly above average stuff (unfortunately married to a body that seems to constantly be at an injury risk). Let's ride him while we can, folks, because in terms of pitching talent, Ben Sheets looks like the best pitcher we've had since Rich Harden.

Update: All credit goes to ST for this idea. It turns out that the release point depends on the handedness of the batter. When facing right-handed hitters, he pitches with the overhand delivery. Lefties get the three-quarters arm slot. Anyone have any insights on why he chooses to do this?

 

Odds and Ends

  • I would have considered the possibility that Sheets is just messy and inaccurate with his arm slot, but poor mechanics would likely leave a smear of release points, rather than two distinct concentrations. And hey, the guy has a sub-2 BB/9. I think it's fair to say that he's not exactly a wild pitcher.
  • This is just speculation, but I think the reason that the release points are lower than you'd expect (the overhand one should be somewhere around his listed 6'1" + an arm's length) is because PitchFX doesn't actually track the release point. Rather, the system starts measuring at a point 50 feet from home plate, or around 10 feet from the mound. In any case, what matters is the difference between the two slots, not the actual height.
  • Er, check this out. In 2004, Sheets pitched a complete game against the Braves, striking out 18.

2 recs  |  Comment 69 comments |

Story-email Email Printer Print

More from Athletics Nation

Is Ben Sheets Being Showcased On Monday?

Jul 2010 by Nico - 812 comments

$25M And Nothing To Spend It On?

Jun 2010 by Nico - 403 comments

Comments

Display:

There aren't a lot of teams that have 2 legitimate Cy Young candidates...

and Brett Anderson-type to pitch in the 3rd spot.

Think about how many MLB-ready (or close to that) prospects the A’s could get in July if Duch. and Sheets are healthy and pitching well. Of course if they’re pitching well and are healthy, the A’s could become contenders if the offense surprises us.

But, again, the A’s could almost rob two entire systems of top-notch talent in July.

"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra

by brenarlo on Feb 9, 2010 7:10 AM PST reply actions  

He had a 2.54 ERA in 141 innings in 2008... with a WHIP under 1.00

Of course, he has to stay healthy and show he’s over his depression…

Ok, the A’s might not be in it meaning he probably wouldn’t win the actual award. But he is certainly more than capable of putting up Cy Young numbers.

"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra

by brenarlo on Feb 9, 2010 4:54 PM PST up reply actions  

Zack Greinke's team wasn't "in it" and he did ok.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Feb 9, 2010 5:02 PM PST up reply actions  

It helped that he K’d a lot of people. Duke? Not as much.

by speckops on Feb 9, 2010 6:28 PM PST up reply actions  

True, but no matter what your K numbers,

if you can keep your ERA at 2.54 you’re a contender.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Feb 9, 2010 6:30 PM PST up reply actions  

not if you cant make more than 25 starts

how many games did chris carpeonter start this year?

"They (The 1989 A's) are the best team I ever saw"- Mike Krukow

by 9Custs on Feb 9, 2010 7:05 PM PST up reply actions  

zero

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Feb 9, 2010 7:24 PM PST up reply actions  

OK, but it's fairly obvious that his ERA was not going to remain at 2.54...

Shawn Spencer: "I’m receiving a transmission from your husband. Really more of a voicemail, if I'm being honest. A status update. Perhaps a twitter."
Burton Guster: "I believe it’s called a tweet."
Shawn Spencer: "There’s no way I’m saying that."

by PaulThomas on Feb 9, 2010 10:56 PM PST up reply actions  

Sweet -- good job again, man

A couple questions though:

1. What’s the breakdown of how often he uses each armslot? If I had to guess, I’d say 65% over/35% three-quarters.
2. Is it my imagination or does he seem to throw more breaking pitches from the three-quarters slot?

"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey

by cuppingmaster on Feb 9, 2010 7:22 AM PST reply actions  

I wouldn't read too much into the actual numbers.

These charts are based on one game. If I had more time, I’d put a chart together of the entire 2008 season, which could answer these questions.

Always the summers are slipping away.
Find me a way for making it stay.

by danmerqury on Feb 9, 2010 10:07 AM PST up reply actions  

I remember him talking about struggling to find his arm slot at one point

Maybe he varies the slot deliberately, but I’m not buying it at least not yet.

He’s been “working on” a change-up his whole career and has been getting a bit better every year.

Besides throwing the curveball for a called strike, he throws it straight at the heart of the plate. Having watched straight fastballs, players start their swing and then the ball bounces in front of the plate. Be ready Kurt.

He routinely sucks bad in ST. Fans wail and moan. Then he comes out like Jed ClampettJet LiJason Statham… hell, Ben Sheets, and kicks ass.

p.s. His hitting skills belong in the AL

by JetSam on Feb 9, 2010 8:51 AM PST reply actions  

Is there..

a specific arm-slot angle he throws to left/righties that can explain the difference? Good insight!

"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."

"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff

by ST on Feb 9, 2010 9:08 AM PST reply actions  

Oh wow, I didn't even think of that.

And you’re right. Turns out he pitches overhand to righties and three-quarters to lefties. It’s a perfect match with the data.

Great catch!

Always the summers are slipping away.
Find me a way for making it stay.

by danmerqury on Feb 9, 2010 10:02 AM PST up reply actions  

Kool...

Is there a location or pitch he usually throws to left handers vs. righties? This might explain the different arm angle. I’m no expert in pitching, but when i played ball in HS, (crappy as I was) I threw more 3/4 angle to get more bite on my slider and cutter, especially to lefties when pitching inside. Of course, I have to caveat this with the fact that I had no idea what mechanics was good or bad for it. It just seemed to work for me.

"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."

"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff

by ST on Feb 9, 2010 3:12 PM PST up reply actions  

That's very odd, don't you think?

I would have expected overhand to lefties and three-quarters to righties. Isn’t it the case that the farther you drop down, the more vulnerable you are to opposite-siders? Sidearmers have the largest platoon splits, and Barry Zito’s big overhand curve was one reason he had excellent success against righties, but didn’t dominate lefties like a lot of southpaws do. You didn’t by any chance get that backwards, did you? Otherwise, color me puzzled.

by Faust on Feb 9, 2010 5:23 PM PST up reply actions  

My thoughts exactly

I would have thought you would drop down to same side and make sure not to with opposite side.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Feb 9, 2010 5:30 PM PST up reply actions  

Just got here...

Maybe Sheets slides to the right of the rubber vs. Lefties. Vice-versa v. Righties.

I can’t imagine that his arm angle would be so apparent. Batters would pick up on this to adjust on fastballs vs. offspeed stuff.

by Colorado Fan on Feb 10, 2010 7:24 AM PST up reply actions  

I just double checked to be sure.

In the game I got the data for, Sheets pitched overhand to Yunel Escobar, a righty, then pitched from a three-quarters arm slot to Kelly Johnson, a lefty. It was perfectly consistent.

Interesting.

Always the summers are slipping away.
Find me a way for making it stay.

by danmerqury on Feb 9, 2010 5:44 PM PST up reply actions  

SuSlu, are you there?

We have a question we’d like you to ask Ben Sheets!

by Faust on Feb 9, 2010 6:06 PM PST up reply actions  

that game from 2004

Game Score is 94, which is very nice.

But that got me looking over the Game Scores that Oakland pitchers put up last year. The best? Brett Anderson, of course. Complete game shutout at Fenway, allowing 2 hits and 2 walks to 9 strikeouts (Game Score was only 90, though).

Man, that is a sweet thing to write.

by colin on Feb 9, 2010 9:10 AM PST reply actions  

Bottom of the 4th: three up, three down (all Ks)

Bottom of the 9th: three up, three down (all weak).

Both times: Lugo, Youkilis, Ortiz.

Stewart: "What really needs to be clear is it wouldn't have mattered if there was an earthquake or not. We were going to beat the Giants.

by Elvez on Feb 9, 2010 11:36 AM PST up reply actions  

Should we start praying for him to have good health now? Or wait until Spring Training so we don't seem needy?

I mean, doesn’t God owe use one after taking Father Desme away?

I never really looked at Sheets very closely in the past, I always thought he was a power pitcher with poor control. Obviously I was wrong.

You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}

by micdog2001 on Feb 9, 2010 10:09 AM PST reply actions   1 recs

Sheets is going to go like 10 - 0 by July with a 1.07 era and a 9/0 K/B ratio

So come the trade deadline the A’s will get something close to what they got for Haren.

"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"

by Eastbayjim on Feb 9, 2010 2:37 PM PST up reply actions  

Even then, he won't command anywhere near that price.

Haren had three years of team control left when we traded him. Sheets’ll have a half a year.

Always the summers are slipping away.
Find me a way for making it stay.

by danmerqury on Feb 9, 2010 4:31 PM PST up reply actions  

swap out Haren for Holliday

and Sheets will be worth about half that package.

If he proves he’s healthy why not sign him long term?

by PL78 on Feb 9, 2010 5:50 PM PST up reply actions  

Because "proving healthy" really only means

proving healthy in 2010.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Feb 9, 2010 6:01 PM PST up reply actions  

Nice job--thanks for posting!

"You know, a long time ago being crazy meant something. Nowadays everybody's crazy."

-Charles Manson

by kaweahkaweah on Feb 9, 2010 10:25 AM PST reply actions  

I dont completely understand pitchFX

because Im lazy and havent read up on it, but it looks really thorough and awesome so I might blindly trust it. One thing that is a pet peeve of mine is this line however:

Signing Sheets gives the A’s a true ace at the top of the rotation

Why isnt Anderson considered our “true ace”? Its his age, right? I think of him as being our best pitcher and #1 and have no idea why he isnt considered as such. Kershaw is getting disrespected even worse in LA where this ridiculous “true ace” term is even worse and getting media attention.

We really need to move away from these olden days “1-5” or “ace-back end” terms. A good pitcher is a good pitcher, a great one is a great one and Daniel Cabrera will always suck. Who gives a shit what day they throw on during the year, it only matters in the playoffs really. “True ace” my ass. The Yankees have 4 “true aces”, yet one of them has to start on the 4th day not the first, Mark Redman went to an ASG because he was the Royals “ace”: its a misleading and stoneage term that needs to be done away with.

by PL78 on Feb 9, 2010 10:27 AM PST reply actions  

Sheets for Kershaw!

But baseball! Fuck yeah! -- lynnzgal

by WaddellCanseco on Feb 9, 2010 11:25 AM PST up reply actions  

Done

I need the veteran presence that Sheets would bring. I don’t trust the young’uns! Have your people call my people.
—Signed, Ned Colletti

by el generico on Feb 9, 2010 11:31 AM PST up reply actions  

yes.

Andy Lee for MVP! Hey, that rhymes...

by Ramah71 on Feb 9, 2010 6:22 PM PST up reply actions  

True Ace is sort of lame anyway...

There was this whole argument about it in some other thread. I think fo an Ace as a “number 1.” There are 30 teams, so the top 30 FIP’s are what I think of as an ace… of course, there is a lot of separation between Tim Lincecum/Zack Greinke and Kevin Corriea.

Brett Anderson posted a Top 30 at 3.69. That is Identical to The Duke’s 2008 (though Anderson pitched roughly 30 more innings).

Ben Sheets Career FIP is 3.51. In 2008, his was 3.38. I think that si why people refer to him as a “true ace.” He has performed better.

I don’t care who anyone calls a “true ace,” all three of these guys is good.

Let’s hope the duct tape, crazy glue and chicken wire that keeps Duke and Sheets on the field stays intact.

If Gio/Maz/Cahill and Braden can all throw strikes and be middle of the pack… this is a deep 1 through 5. If any one of them has a top tier year, look the hell out. It’d be like Hudson, Mulder, Zito and Lidle in 2002… Holy crap that was a good rotation.

by jeffro on Feb 9, 2010 2:12 PM PST up reply actions  

Is there any correlation

with Rick Peterson in all that?

by JetSam on Feb 9, 2010 9:41 PM PST up reply actions  

Correlation? Sure.

Causation? Damned if I know. Peterson’s golden touch seemed to disappear when he went to the Mets.

by Faust on Feb 10, 2010 5:23 AM PST up reply actions  

The 2001 Cy was a crock of shit

If there was ever a reason to question how shitty a job the writers do, this would be it.

Out of the 6 SPs that got votes, Clemens led them in NO statistical categories other than WALKS (uhh thats a negative category) and had the highest ERA out of the lot. He had the lowest amount of losses, but thats it and that stat relates to entire team performance not the individual. He was a totally lousy choice. Garcia or Mussina would have been much better choices. Mulder’s ERA was too high.

It would be so great if they re-did all the awards based wholly on stats that way the awards would actually mean something and fatass Colon wouldnt be known as the best pitcher of 2005. Zito wouldnt have a Cy either, Pedro annihilated him that year, numbers wise. But fuckit, Id rather have the awards truthful and legit than some stupid writer with a grudge deciding them.

by PL78 on Feb 9, 2010 11:29 PM PST up reply actions  

Let's not forget Vida Blue

He won the Cy Young Award in his first full season at age 22 (21 at the start of the season).

Root for the Giants? Not even if they're playing al-Qaeda!

by Monday Fan on Feb 11, 2010 1:11 PM PST up reply actions  

In 2004, Sheets pitched a complete game against the Braves, striking out 18.

116 pitches for 91 strikes!!!
What a monster, I’m so stoked for opening day.

by brian.only on Feb 9, 2010 2:55 PM PST reply actions  

and he loves to work fast

which gives it an energy (and endears him to umpires)

by JetSam on Feb 9, 2010 3:02 PM PST up reply actions  

If Sheets is himself,

the A’s picked up a whale of a pitcher. He literally pitches like anyone who plays MLB’09 The Show pitches with their favorite guy. 70-80% strikes, plenty of K’s, no runs.

He could come back 2-3mph down from his usual 93 and still be a considerably above-average pitcher. The guy can simply paint.

There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

by misterjonez on Feb 9, 2010 4:36 PM PST up reply actions  

only 6 years ago!

"They (The 1989 A's) are the best team I ever saw"- Mike Krukow

by 9Custs on Feb 9, 2010 7:16 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

the reason for the change in arm slots..

And remember I only pitched in high school but I two different release points also, although I never mastered either. I think the reason he changes is deception. I bet if he goes three quarters to right handed batters he would get rocked because the righty would see something that would tip off his pitches but to a lefty, they may not see the same thing….I figured it out the hard way…but yes I was more deceptive when I went over the top to right handed hitters..thanks back to lurking

ohio roots

"Look how far this is from your ‘Moneyball’ theories a couple years ago," Buckley said. "They were drafting all college pitchers. And now who’s the team that got the 16-year-old? Oakland." Chris Buckley, the Cincinnati Reds’ scouting director.

by nickatt7 on Feb 9, 2010 3:43 PM PST via mobile reply actions  

arm slots

i was imagining those pose for funny photo boards you see at tourist places. or Stocks.

alaska A residing in northern Idaho.

by ak_A on Feb 9, 2010 7:41 PM PST reply actions  

I Have Mine

Hey guys, I run a music blog. alternative, powerpop, punk, electronica, screamo, etc etc, check it out. http://muzikdizcovery.blogspot.com/ artist interviews and many other stuff. free cookies! (not really, but still) :D

by cwhitman412 on Feb 10, 2010 7:26 PM PST up reply actions  

arm slot

It seems that he prefers to go to the 3 quarters arm slot against lefties to get more movement on his change (and 4 seam fastball) AWAY from the hitter. Sinkerballers, for example, don’t want to throw over-the-top, because they get more movement from a lower arm slot.

by greenpaddedgloves on Feb 10, 2010 8:08 AM PST reply actions  

Sheets doesn't change his arm slot

He sets up on a different end of the pitching rubber depending on the handedness of the hitter. That’s what explains why the movement on the pitches is the same but the release point shifts left-to-right.

by Mike Fast on Feb 10, 2010 11:26 PM PST reply actions  

Fascinating!

Thanks for this. Clearly, this is a far simpler answer, and it solves pretty much every question in this post.

Always the summers are slipping away.
Find me a way for making it stay.

by danmerqury on Feb 10, 2010 11:43 PM PST up reply actions  

Now that we know the answer

I can see that we missed a clue that should have at least allowed us to surmise the answer before Mike showed us the pix. The two release points we were interpreting as “over the top” and “three-quarters” are exactly the same height, whereas we should expect a three-quarters delivery to be release from a lower point than over the top (a ten-thirty position as opposed to twelve o’clock).

I see Sheets lines up so as to give himself a straight shot at the outside corner, which is of course any pitcher’s most frequent target. I wonder if any pitchers line up the opposite way from Sheets, opposite the batter’s inside corner? You’d lose the advantage of the repeatable direct line to the outside corner, but you’d gain better motion away from the batter against righties (somewhat simulating sidearm delivery without actually sidearming) while reducing the towards-the-batter movement that lefty hitters tend to find to their liking.

by Faust on Feb 13, 2010 5:23 AM PST up reply actions  

Most pitchers who shift do so opposite of the way Sheets does

Trevor Hoffman and Ben Sheets are the only ones in the majors now who shift toward the outside corner. Jose Contreras, Francisco Liriano, Darren O’Day, Manny Corpas, Felipe Paulino, Ehren Wasserman, and Alberto Castillo are among the handful of pitchers who shift toward the inside corner.

by Mike Fast on Feb 13, 2010 9:59 AM PST up reply actions  

Thanks

I didn’t know any of that. I tend not to notice how the pitcher lines up on the rubber at all.

by Faust on Feb 14, 2010 5:56 AM PST up reply actions  

Brad Kilby looks, from the data,

like another Athletic that might shift positions on the rubber based on batter handedness.

Brett Anderson shifted positions in April and May, but starting in June he used the same position against both righties and lefties.

by Mike Fast on Feb 13, 2010 10:17 AM PST up reply actions  

Yes, it is.

The photos are from the game on July 19, 2008.

by Mike Fast on Feb 11, 2010 2:31 PM PST up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the SB Nation blog about Oakland Athletics.

Community Guidelines ANcillary Terms
Start posting about the Athletics »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

Connect_with_facebook

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

08-_the_author_small
DLD 7/29/10: Floats, Anyone?
Tsgirlbass_th_small
DLD 7/28/2010: MLBlinology
Img_1848_small
Exploring an Andrew Bailey-for-Jesus Montero trade
Tsgirlbass_th_small
For those going to be extras in "Moneyball"....
Baseball_small
AN interviews Mike Piazza

Recent FanPosts

Poochini-butt_in_box_2_small
What Do iglew, jeffro, and Craig Breslow Have In Common?
Small
Minor Athletics 7/19-7/27 (Part I)
Nx74205_small
August GOGpicker
Whyoffry180_small
Michael Choice Signs For $2MM Bonus
Images_small
Who Should The A's Sign To Big-Time Contracts?
Zuke_small
AN Day 8/21?
Small
Trading Relievers

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

SPONSORS

SBNation.com Recent Stories

HOUSTON - JULY 24:  Pitcher Roy Oswalt #44 of the Houston Astros throws against the Cincinnati Reds in the first inning at Minute Maid Park on July 24 2010 in Houston Texas.  (Photo by Bob Levey/Getty Images) +13 updates

Done Deal: Roy Oswalt Traded To Phillies, Will Make Debut Friday Night In Washington

WASHINGTON - JULY 29:  Adam Dunn #44 of the Washington Nationals watches the game against the Atlanta Braves at Nationals Park on July 29 2010 in Washington DC.  (Photo by Greg Fiume/Getty Images)

MLB Trade Deadline: Where Does Your Team Stand As Saturday Approaches?

Florida Marlins' Jorge Cantu watches his double against the Colorado Rockies in the first inning of a baseball game in Miami, Wednesday, July 21, 2010. Dan Uggla scored on the double. The Marlins won 5-2. (AP Photo/Alan Diaz) +2 updates

Marlins Trade Jorge Cantu To Rangers For Pitchers Evan Reed, Omar Poveda

More from SBNation.com >


Managers

Maya_papi_small Tyler Bleszinski

Green_small iglew

08-_the_author_small 67MARQUEZ

Whyoffry180_small danmerqury

Logo_small gigglingone

Baseball_small baseballgirl

Poochini-butt_in_box_2_small Nico

Venasfans_small OaklandSi

A_s_pic_5 emperor nobody

Editors

As_kings_cal_small louismg

902484_big_small Leopold Bloom

Authors

Myeyebrowpose_small jeffro

Moderators

Countdown_small Taj Adib

Img_1848_small notsellingjeans

Small vignette17