The Undervalued Commodity of Pitcher Health: How Far Have We Really Come?
A few weeks ago, Gary Armida wrote an extremely interesting article for fullcountpitch.com titled Arms Race the Last Hope for Small Market Teams (non-subscription). In this article, he tells the basic story of statistical analysis; started a few decades ago by Bill James, et al, and brought to the forefront of baseball with Billy Beane and the early 2000 Oakland A's.
He points out that statistics have become increasingly standard for all MLB teams, which puts the small-market teams right back in the same position they have always been: With teams like the Yankees and Red Sox using statistical analysis as well as their unlimited budgets, what chance does the rest of the league have?
The latter statement poses the biggest problem for small market teams as the Red Sox and Yankees, two of the biggest spenders in the game, are utilizing small market practices, the same practices that allowed Beane’s A’s to make the playoffs from 2000 through 2003 while winning at least 88 games from 2000 through 2006. There is just one problem with most teams pouring money into advanced statistical analysis and trying to find an undervalued skill. There simply isn’t anything left to exploit. The majority of teams understand the value of hitters getting on base; they now understand the value of defensive statistics. What’s left to exploit?
Armida offers one last undervalued commodity:
Just as Billy Beane did years ago, teams will have to eschew long-practiced philosophies and methods in order to find that last untapped resource. Teams may have to look towards science in order to find the answer rather than hold onto long-standing traditions. The last true unexplored area is pitcher health. The first team to find a system that can keep its pitchers healthy wins the race and becomes Baseball’s next great dynasty.
Why is it so hard to keep pitchers healthy? Why do MLB teams have much stricter pitching restrictions, regulations, and routines in this era than ever before, yet aren't making strides in keeping starting pitchers on the field?
And as Armida points out, this is especially troubling for a team like the A's, who don't have the depth (of talent or pocketbook) to recover from an ace pitcher (or two!) going down. And since we can probably classify the entire A's starting pitching staff as high-risk*, it is likely that the 2010 season could hinge on starting pitcher health.
Will Carroll pulls no punches with his analysis of the problem:
"Progressive thinking is almost absent in baseball. There’s almost complete ignorance at the field level", says Carroll, "In the front offices some, but this isn’t translating to the field. I know that a pitching coach doesn’t need to be doing calculus, but the last major change in pitching was the five man rotation, in the late 60’s, early 70s. Pitch counts have come down, but injuries have gone up. Still, we’re doing less research than it would cost to sign Kelvim Escobar now. It’s sad."
Armida quotes MLB pitcher Al Leiter, a player-turned-analyst for the MLB Network:
Leiter was always someone who looked to maximize his ability. Having been educated about strength training for pitchers, the 22 year old was in the weight room doing basic shoulder strengthening exercises, something that is common for pitchers today. "I was in the weight room and in walks Billy Martin, puffing his cigar. He yells, ‘what’s wrong with you?’ After trying to tell him that I was strengthening my arm, he barked, ‘If you want to get stronger, go long-toss’. The truth is, there was no training regimen then. Everything was done on the fly", explains Leiter. It seems that this is the case with many teams today.
After losing three seasons to injury early on in his career, Leiter turned his career around and went on to pitch 12 more seasons as a "durable, dominant" pitcher. Here's what didn't change:
Was it pitch counts? No, that certainly wasn’t it as Leiter always threw a high number of pitches. He famously threw 142 of them during game five of the 2000 World Series in one of the best post-season performances in recent history. His transformation wasn’t about pitch count, even though pitch count and innings limits are considered the preeminent safety nets for pitchers today. For Leiter, the transformation had everything to do with the science that Baseball seems resistant to adopt.
It wasn’t until 1991, after his second surgery, that Leiter found what he needed. "Dr. (James) Andrews invited me to have a biomechanical pitching analysis. He told me that they knew what ‘clean guys look like’. Listen, I was the perfect poster child for this. I was the 5th high school pitcher taken; I had plus-stuff and terrible mechanics. With the analysis, I saw my arm path and made adjustments to have a proper arm path. If I had one (an analysis) at 10 or 11 years old, a lot of things would’ve changed", Leiter passionately explains.
...
Leiter is just one of a many pitchers who used biomechanics as a key element to sustain his proper arm path and delivery, allowing him to pitch for another 13 seasons at a high level. Unfortunately for most pitchers, biomechanics was pushed aside for the importance of pitch counts and innings limits.
That should bring up the question: If the bio-mechanic data is out there, and the data supports mechanics over strict pitch-count limits, why doesn't that seem to translate to the field? But I guess why I want to know is why there are no set individual training programs for MLB pitchers laid out by their teams? Does baseball really expect 20-25 year olds with no medical training to come up with a routine that will make them a healthy pitcher? And is it too late to undo bad habits from high school/college/minor league ball? (I don't know, is it?)
From the science side of the debate:
The use of science is perhaps the only pitching program that comes with data from valid research. Pitch counts, as Will Carroll points out, are more of an end result. Teams are hoping that if a pitcher averages 92 pitches per game, he will stay healthy. The science of biomechanics and the research of Dr. Andrews remove that hope. Teams will know the flaws of their pitchers. They can be proactive in correcting those flaws and avoiding those injuries that sideline pitchers and cripple a team’s pennant hopes. There is momentum building towards this movement, but there is still the old school mentality lingering on the field. "The old school mentality would yell, ‘what are you talking about? Just pitch", explains Leiter. The same thing goes on today except they yell to stop pitching after 100 pitches.
And once again, the Oakland A's were right on the cutting edge of this undervalued commodity at one time. But what happened?
Rick Peterson was the first coach to bring his staff to the famed lab in Alabama. His Oakland A’s were the model of health. Shortly after he left and another program was put in place, pitchers broke down. As the pitching coach for the Mets, he brought the New York hurlers for an analysis. The Mets also had near flawless pitching health. Soon after he left, pitchers began to break down when a less stringent program was put into place. That health is attributed to the analysis and the proper delivery that results from data. "I am very fortunate to have been put in a place where I was able to be educated by Dr. Andrews. The data is there. We can pinpoint a pitcher’s flaw and correct it before it becomes a problem. None of my pitchers ever had a problem with getting an analysis", explains Peterson. Using that data, Peterson is able to construct an individualized pitching plan for each member of his staff. That includes delivery workouts, conditioning practices, and mental coaching. Rick Adair agrees about catering to the individual rather than a whole team approach, "Today, the individual gets ignored. Some training methods are not for everyone. They’re not clones. You have to take that into account when working with pitchers".
So were the A's a group of healthier pitchers back then? Did something fundamentally change in Oakland to raise the red flags on pitcher health? Are coaches like Peterson and the bio-mechanic data (he's now with the Brewers) setting the standard for future pitching health? How would you begin to change the look of MLB with this new data? How early would you start with a young pitcher? What would you do if your child wanted to pitch; what resources would you use?
*stay tuned for an analysis on the 2010 Team Health Reports from Will Carroll when they are published. Rumor has it that between Sheets and Duchscherer's obvious risks, and the Verducci Effect on the rest of the rotation, he already has four of the A's possible starting pitchers in red.
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I actually think the last underexplored areas in player development
are psychology and spirituality.
Do MLB prospects get Wonderlic tests like the NFL prospects?
I would like to see A’s prospects get thorough psych evaluations and have individually tailored mental conditioning programs. Maybe it would do something for players with million dollar bodies and ten cent brains…
Celebrating my 5 year ANniversary... (SPWC/K56/ThePilotsDaredMeToDie/Gaijin_Suketto)
You know, that's a REALLY good point.
Especially when you talk to current or former pitchers and they all say that such a great deal of pitching is mental. Of course you have to have the talent to start with, but what makes some players able to take the field at this level, and some crumble under the pressure? Why are certain pitchers tagged with “closer” mentality, and others—although they may have a great arm—just can’t seem to get it done when it counts.
Players like A-rod have been exploring this; wasn’t he in counseling (sports or otherwise) to try to improve his game?
"Bobby Crosby at third is a bit of an adventure. And not like, here’s some hidden treasure, what fun. More like, gah! poison ants!" --alea iacta est
by baseballgirl on Feb 10, 2010 9:21 AM PST up reply actions
I'm pretty sure A's already have sports psychologists speak to players
I think this is routine at Spring Training, and maybe at Instructs. Colleges do it too. Many players have consulted with sports psychologists since high school.
by redtopcowboy on Feb 10, 2010 10:10 AM PST up reply actions
having someone speak to the players
while they sit in the locker room fiddling around nervously waiting to get back on the field is not enough.
I think it’s time to pull an old trick out of the A’s book and hire a psychological coach/facilitator to be with the team full time.
It wouldn’t be the first time the club has taken this step. Harvey Dorfman was basically the club’s non-uniformed psychological coach, with full clubhouse access, starting in 1984.
However, since some players tilt more to the spirit/religion side rather than the analytical/psychological side, it might be a good idea to have a non/multidenominational team chaplain with a lot of wisdom and charisma and a lot of clubhouse access, so that players that don’t buy into the positive affects of psych coaching can get similar effects from applied focus of faith.
Celebrating my 5 year ANniversary... (SPWC/K56/ThePilotsDaredMeToDie/Gaijin_Suketto)
by Gaijin_Suketto on Feb 10, 2010 10:30 AM PST up reply actions
I am with you Gaijin_Suketto
But the patient must be so inclined.
It’s a great idea you propose, but would the average baseball player, even in today’s world, not become too defensive and sensitive to “going there” and making the clubhouse and in general baseball in his mind “touchy feely?”
The very thing that could really help the mental side of a player likely would be too sensitive for players to approach due to them being extremely (and maybe rightfully so) touchy/superstitious about their mental approach.
I guess what i’m saying is a pitchers mentality is very very personal, and often opening up some of that would, at least in the players’ minds, “give away too much of what makes them tick and effective.”
(Dang, great conversation that i must leave.)
Deswho?
by supersugarCrisp on Feb 10, 2010 11:04 AM PST up reply actions
Great conversation...
…for example, from all account, Zito could be one type of player you mention; he’s a little “off” and that’s what makes him effective. He has his own Zen/religious/spiritual experience going on, and it’s likely a factor in his pitching.
Do teams still have the team chaplain? I think they used to, at any rate.
"Bobby Crosby at third is a bit of an adventure. And not like, here’s some hidden treasure, what fun. More like, gah! poison ants!" --alea iacta est
by baseballgirl on Feb 10, 2010 11:42 AM PST up reply actions
Gabe Gross
Like the player/coach, he’s the player/preacher. Have you heard about the evils of tobacco?
We're going to do a play about how lying hurts your soul.
Hello, and welcome to "The Leopold Bloom Happy Funtime Stalkers’ Club"--I am your host, Leopold Bloom
by Leopold Bloom on Feb 10, 2010 11:13 PM PST up reply actions
I eat souls.
Celebrating my 5 year ANniversary... (SPWC/K56/ThePilotsDaredMeToDie/Gaijin_Suketto)
by Gaijin_Suketto on Feb 11, 2010 7:44 AM PST up reply actions
I met the teams Chaplain in 2006
He was a guest speaker at an event. He had some amusing stories….Miggy claiming finding Christ contributed to his MVP year, how the clubhouse loved his various antics (including tearing of a phonebook in 2, which tore his pectoral muscle and had him miss that last part of the 2005 season). He was grooming his son to take over his Roving Chaplain duties back then, I am curious if the tradition is still persisting…..
The trick to tearing a phone book in two
Is to bake the phone book in the oven a couple of hours. Then it tears much more easily.
Not that I’ve done it.
Source: “The Classified Flea Market” newspaper/want ads/rag. They always had short little bits of info like that, to fill in between classified adv.
Awaiting the start of the 2010 season!
by One won lost won on Feb 10, 2010 8:12 PM PST up reply actions
MMMMPPPHHH
Can I just say that A-L was delicious?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I eat phone books too.
Celebrating my 5 year ANniversary... (SPWC/K56/ThePilotsDaredMeToDie/Gaijin_Suketto)
by Gaijin_Suketto on Feb 11, 2010 7:45 AM PST up reply actions
The bake a book trick
That is fantastic knowledge. No sarcasm man I need to try that out. If you see a news feed with a house burning down in the Sacramento area it’s just a rental.
"-i never said half the things i said." --Yogi Berra
Actually, Zito practiced yoga
and for any of you that have practiced, yoga helps the mind as well as the body. Getting centered mentally has to be as practical as stretching and strengthening the physical body, and yoga provides both.
Don’t know what happened to him once he joined the G-nats, but he was a stud in Oakland and very open about his yoga practice and how it impacted his game.
Haleakalu
Apparently yoga works better if your fastball can hit 90MPH on the radar gun
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
This makes me think of Tony Soprano going to see a psychiatrist.
The modern discourse of mental health and fragility permeates the Sopranos, presumably the most unlikely setting for sensitivity. Like when Tony says repeatedly in the first season, “it’s not a noising [nursing] home, it’s a retiament [retirement] community.”
Given the positive response to D’s depression, I don’t see much need for additional testosterone-based defensiveness.
Interesting to point out that, as a segue to the topic
of sports psychology/performance psychology, the Mariners acquisition of Milton Bradley seems to have been pretty well executed. When he was with Texas, the team performance coach was Steve Hecht. Now that he’s with Seattle, guess who his performance coach is? You guessed it, Steve Hecht.
I would imagine these types of positions are going to be filled with qualified people before too long, and they’ll begin having a serious impact on how you go about constructing your roster. I would also imagine that Beane is already ahead of the curve on this, as he has been on pretty much every other competitive advantage factor to date.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
Who is the A's performance coach, then?
Celebrating my 5 year ANniversary... (SPWC/K56/ThePilotsDaredMeToDie/Gaijin_Suketto)
by Gaijin_Suketto on Feb 11, 2010 7:47 AM PST up reply actions
Undervalued commodities are cyclical
Power and onbase precentage were undervalued in the late 70’s and Earl Weaver exploited it. It didn’t come back untill Beane exploited it in the early 2000’s. Speed and defense were exploited by the Cardinals in the 80’s, Beane and Epstein are exploiting it now. The key is to identify when an undervalued commoditiy has become overvalued, and move on (or backwards).
To say there is nothing left to exploit is short sighted. That thinking is why some teams are never successful. There is always something to exploit, or re-exploit.
Agree...he probably should word it is
“Something to exploit right now” is pitcher health.
"Bobby Crosby at third is a bit of an adventure. And not like, here’s some hidden treasure, what fun. More like, gah! poison ants!" --alea iacta est
by baseballgirl on Feb 10, 2010 9:23 AM PST up reply actions
"as"
"Bobby Crosby at third is a bit of an adventure. And not like, here’s some hidden treasure, what fun. More like, gah! poison ants!" --alea iacta est
by baseballgirl on Feb 10, 2010 9:23 AM PST up reply actions
+1 undervalued unit
When its time to shoot, shoot... don't talk
by Charlie O the Mule on Feb 10, 2010 9:50 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
I think you could make the argument that it is now
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
by vignette17 on Feb 10, 2010 3:40 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Your assertion is correct.
I would point out that, as information becomes more widely available, the peaks and valleys of the cycles will become less disparate. Whereas Beane could pick up .380 OBP guys with no other skills for literally nothing around 2000, now those players are afforded at least some value in the open marketplace, and often times that value exceeds what the smaller-market teams can meet.
I would argue that older players are the currently undervalued commodity in baseball. The market hasn’t yet found the ‘true’ value point for them, but you have to assume that the group of Washburn, Damon, Dye, Branyan and Co. will significantly outperform their salaries as a group.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
Sandy Alderson
Some forget he was a very good A’s GM before Beane. The A’s used the OBP and power to their advantage when building the late 80’s and early 90’s teams to success. Guys like Henderson, Phillips for getting on base and a string of power hitters. I think Beane learned quite a bit under Alderson as Sandy was a little ahead of his time, IMO.
Gas to Chicago- $23.87 A's/White Sox Tix- $28 Watching the A's whipping the Sox in July 05'- Priceless
So is everyone going to copy Beane like they did with the OBS guys before?
If Hatteberg was the posterchild of the On Base guys well he is to me at least is Raja Davis the poster child for the speed guys?
Bad pick Peyton "Regular Season" Manning!!!
Dr James Andrews is well worth listening to.
Andrews has been the top’Pitcher’s Surgeon’ for quite some time now, and has not only found out how to repair trashed elbows and shoulders, but how to do it with minimal evasive surgury; such as orthoscopic. But he is more than just a surgeon, he is a mega sports fan whose ‘hobby’ is in figuring the knesiology of the athlete, especially in pitchers, which results can result in injury. Avoiding the injury prone mechanics is key. His biomechanical pitching analysis is, and has been cutting edge. No one has a better sucess rate of returning damaged arms to the hill than Andrews.
Mulder broke down early in his career...
wheras Hudson and Zito did not.
The problem today with young baseball players under the age of 18 is that too many, especially pitchers are are playing ball year round. Most pitchers who remain healthy come from northern states where they have been forced to rest their arms during the winter. You couple a developing arm with improper mechanics and they will have to pursue a career in the infield or outfield because they will blow out their arms sooner or later. In many northern states, however, they are now developing gyms that allow pitchers to pitch year round….MISTAKE!
"I've been accused of using too many words...I suppose that's like accusing Mozart of using too many notes." Bill King
Also an interesting point...
…do young pitchers play year-round more now than ever before? And you’re right…with no rest at all, and maybe no one showing them how to properly take care of their arms…
"Bobby Crosby at third is a bit of an adventure. And not like, here’s some hidden treasure, what fun. More like, gah! poison ants!" --alea iacta est
by baseballgirl on Feb 10, 2010 11:45 AM PST up reply actions
Japan
Note that in Japan, they practice basically year-round as it is, and I don’t think they’re any worse in terms of injuries than we are. That’s one reason they rock the WBC when that happens- they’re ready all the time. I’m sure that training can be overdone, but basically NPB shows that it’s not the timing so much as the type of training.
Perhaps managers are the next undervalued asset
Think about how many times players have languished under one manager and thrived under another. Certain coaches and managers seem to consistently get the best out of their players, think: Joe Torre, Tony LaRussa, Mike Scioscia. There is no question that baseball is the thinking man’s game and with a solid psychological approach, a coach can aid in bumping a player’s performance to that next level.
I’m guessing most of us on here have played organized sports at one level or another…didn’t you play a little extra hard & give a little extra effort for the coach that you really connected with? I know I did. And I’ve seen it from the other side of the equation when I was the coach.
Good post, but I completely disagree with this:
Why is it so hard to keep pitchers healthy? Why do MLB teams have much stricter pitching restrictions, regulations, and routines in this era than ever before, yet aren’t making strides in keeping starting pitchers on the field?
They’ve made TREMENDOUS strides in this regard. Not only do they keep pitchers on the field, a pitcher can get hurt and through the wonders of modern science he won’t be selling cars 6 months later. Tommy John is sad that you forgot about him.
All that said, pitching is a ridiculously unnatural motion. It seems unlikely that we’ll ever be able to keep pitchers totally healthy. Mike Marshall seems to think otherwise, but nobody wants to listen to him.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Feb 10, 2010 10:50 AM PST reply actions
modern medicine has come up with ways to keep players healthy!
Damn right they have made tremendous strides – they’re called steroids. They help with a player’s conditioning and help them come back from injury quicker. It seems as if they helped a lot with A’s successful run in the late 90s and early 2000s.
Steroids also help players break down more quickly
As the added strength can put more strain on other parts of the body.
@worldblee on Twitter.
Fair enough.
Modern medicine has certainly allowed for amazing recoveries; i.e. Tommy John. But what about the mysterious oblique injury that I never heard about until it was sitting on our bench year after year.
"Bobby Crosby at third is a bit of an adventure. And not like, here’s some hidden treasure, what fun. More like, gah! poison ants!" --alea iacta est
by baseballgirl on Feb 10, 2010 11:44 AM PST up reply actions
But yes, excellent point
An injury like TJ was the end of the line for every pitcher at one point…but is it just me (and it could be!) or are there a tremendous number of pitchers who undergo that surgery now? Is that the same percentage of players in the past who would just end their careers? That’s a lot of pitchers to just lose every year.
"Bobby Crosby at third is a bit of an adventure. And not like, here’s some hidden treasure, what fun. More like, gah! poison ants!" --alea iacta est
by baseballgirl on Feb 10, 2010 11:51 AM PST up reply actions
This is a good question, and one I don't know the answer to
I’m not even sure if injuries like this were diagnosed in the past. How often would a player under the reserve clause hide a torn ligament for a year or more just because he knew that if he sat out, he’d be out of a job?
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Feb 10, 2010 2:26 PM PST up reply actions
^this AND
you have to at least acknowledge cause and effect in the case of pitcher health. Sports medicine has made incredible strides recently, so a team looking at two pitchers (say, Jarrod Washburn and Rich Harden?) in the draft can now weigh talent and upside more heavily than in the past.
In the 1970’s, you take Washburn pretty much every time, because Harden is going to implode in a handful of years, right about the time he peaks. Nowadays, you know you can repair Harden this way and that before abandoning his career, stretching his useful ability window much longer than in years past.
If my hypothesis is correct, then you’d see A) an upswing in overall pitcher ability/stuff, and B) an increase in total injuries/surgeries on a year-to-year basis.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
You know what baffles me?
It seems like pitchers have WAY more problems related to/caused from throwing than quarterbacks do in football.
The mechanics are different, sure, but there is a LOT more throwing by a QB than by a pitcher, it would seem.
Maybe not though, and I’m just an idiot. Carry onl.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Is this so?
I’m not much of a football fan, so you might be right. Offhand, though, it seems to me that a QB throws far fewer times per game (e.g., on the order of say, 40 pass attempts per game); plays far, far fewer games in a season; and his throwing mechanics are relatively consistent, whereas the array of pitches a pitcher throws involves violent torque and other very severe conditions. I’m just guessing here, certainly.
There's much LESS throwing, to be sure
And the motion is a lot different. Quarterbacks typically don’t wind up and have that complete over-the-top arm rotation. They’re also not always trying to throw hard.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Feb 10, 2010 2:24 PM PST up reply actions
I don't buy that there's less throwing.
There’s less per game, sure, but there’s a LOT more practicing, as opposed to off days and one or 2 bullpen sessions between starts for pitchers.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
QBs don't put nearly the stress on their arms
Its a more compact motion and often its a much less violent motion. The majority of the time, a QB is not exerting max effort on his throws as its more about timing, touch and accuracy. If all 30-40 throws a game were max effort hail mary’s or quick slants then it might be a different story.
I’ve got a bad shoulder and can still throw a football no problem, but even playing catch with a baseball makes me pretty sore after just a few balls. The motion is just different.
It also seems like quarterback mechanics have a lot more wiggle room. A pitcher has to duplicate his delivery very precisely in comparison.
All in the release point and grip
The hand is in a better position (not twisted at the wrist), which puts the elbow in a better position.
Awaiting the start of the 2010 season!
by One won lost won on Feb 10, 2010 8:18 PM PST up reply actions
I keep thinking about another observation from Will Carroll
that staying healthy is a skill. Perhaps it should be considered as the “sixth tool”?
That comment has always stuck with me, too
it’s changed the way I look at players. And it’s also led me to get into arguments supporting Barry Zito, which is weird.
by the way, Boras really emphasized Zito's "staying healthy" skill
when he was shopping him around as Zito became a free agent
whether he is mentally healthy, however, may be another point all together
I seem to recall several interviews where he said he wasn’t “focused” on the mound or something to that effect.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Feb 10, 2010 11:40 AM PST up reply actions
I guess that's preferable to saying "my fastball is straight and slow
and the umps won’t call my curve a strike anymore"
by OaklandSi on Feb 10, 2010 3:43 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Excellent point.
And it really is a key to success. (Hi, Rich Harden!)
"Bobby Crosby at third is a bit of an adventure. And not like, here’s some hidden treasure, what fun. More like, gah! poison ants!" --alea iacta est
by baseballgirl on Feb 10, 2010 11:46 AM PST up reply actions
Let me posit another uninformed guess
It seems to me that “staying healthy” is a skill only to a relatively small degree, that it, only insofar as you can control your health (by way of exercise, diet, etc.). I’d guess that for the most part you’re at the mercy of genetic, structural and other factors way beyond your control. Someone like Zito, however disciplined and broad-minded he might be (e.g., cognizant of the psychological aspects of pitching), may have just been lucky to inherit a durable body type.
by Ray of Lite on Feb 10, 2010 2:19 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
It's everything I don't like about baseball, rolled into one issue
Machismo
Anti-scientific, anti-intellectual bent
Distrust of outsiders
Misreading of history
Distrust of anything new
really? you mean unlike let say football, hockey, basketball...
I’d say of the major team sports, Baseball is the least macho and most intellectual.
I agree.
Baseball has always been the least macho and most intellectual. Going ‘hell bent’ is often counter productive, whereas controlling the athleticism more precisely than say football, is what can often provide the best results.
I think this is a stereotype
that is mainly reflected by the fans. The game of baseball is relatively simple and individualistic, and the vast majority of players are not college graduates, and are certainly not intellectual giants by and large. The fan base, on the other hand, tends to be more intelligent and articulate, as well as being fond of creating tons of obtuse statistics to moll over. Baseball, as an individual sport played on teams, lends itself especially to the creating of statistics, but this is not the result of the players being math geniuses with a bat, it just is less complex and much easier to isolate a single players actions.
Football, on the other hand, is an incredibly complex game, and the strategy and planning involved is beyond the grasp of all but the most studious fans. The players nearly always have a college degree. But the fans, to put is bluntly, tend to be brutes.
by Chilango on Feb 10, 2010 3:06 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I wonder how many have a degree
99% of players go to college….how many actually graduate or can be considered smart? More than the average fan might realize sure, but there are alot of guys who went to school but didn’t really get educated or graduate too.
Gas to Chicago- $23.87 A's/White Sox Tix- $28 Watching the A's whipping the Sox in July 05'- Priceless
I remember last year an article
about someone on the A’s being considered a ‘clubhouse brain’ – and he revealed that he was something like 1 of only 29 players in MLB with a Bachelor’s degree… definitely a surprise to me that so few had actually graduated. I can’t find the article because I can’t remember who it was. Obviously I am not contending that you must have a degree to be intelligent, but there is a correlation between getting an education and being educated.
by Chilango on Feb 10, 2010 6:44 PM PST up reply actions
Probably Craig Breslow, Molecular Biologist
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Breslow is one; Ziegler is the other
"Bobby Crosby at third is a bit of an adventure. And not like, here’s some hidden treasure, what fun. More like, gah! poison ants!" --alea iacta est
by baseballgirl on Feb 10, 2010 7:37 PM PST up reply actions
I think it's way lower than that
IIRC, there was something like 10 players in the whole MLB with a degree. We have 2.
"Bobby Crosby at third is a bit of an adventure. And not like, here’s some hidden treasure, what fun. More like, gah! poison ants!" --alea iacta est
by baseballgirl on Feb 10, 2010 7:37 PM PST up reply actions
Craig Breslow
He has an ivy league degree.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
In molecular biology even
Which is far harder than Economics or Government that most of the sports players I know concentrated in.
Baseball is far and away the least strategic of the major American sports
Even hockey, which often looks like a lot of heavy guys just milling around on ice skates beating each other up, has some decently complex set plays signalled in most of the time.
Baseball is mostly just a serial reel of 1-on-1 matchups. The team aspect of the game is more often than not irrelevant.
Shawn Spencer: "I’m receiving a transmission from your husband. Really more of a voicemail, if I'm being honest. A status update. Perhaps a twitter."
Burton Guster: "I believe it’s called a tweet."
Shawn Spencer: "There’s no way I’m saying that."
Yet if you surveyed all MLB players, coaches and managers
nearly 100% of them would tell you how important the team together is.
"Bobby Crosby at third is a bit of an adventure. And not like, here’s some hidden treasure, what fun. More like, gah! poison ants!" --alea iacta est
by baseballgirl on Feb 10, 2010 3:50 PM PST up reply actions
It's self-selection bias
The kinds of people who become professional baseball players (and by extension coaches and managers, since teams never hire non-players for those jobs) are the kinds of people with a particularly close-minded, authoritarian bent.
This is a stereotype, of course, but compared to the general population, the psychological trend is pretty apparent. The handful of Brian Bannister types are really more the exception that proves the rule…
[There’s also the problem of getting an honest opinion out of people. Any player or coach who actually said that the team was irrelevant would instantly be branded as a sociopath by other players and the conventional media, causing their career to suffer. So you have all the standard fears of retaliation working on that issue as well.]
If you surveyed all well-educated independent MLB analysts, I bet nearly 100% of them would tell you that “the team together” is almost completely irrelevant.
Shawn Spencer: "I’m receiving a transmission from your husband. Really more of a voicemail, if I'm being honest. A status update. Perhaps a twitter."
Burton Guster: "I believe it’s called a tweet."
Shawn Spencer: "There’s no way I’m saying that."
by PaulThomas on Feb 10, 2010 3:57 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I see your point, I do...
…but part of the reason that I love baseball is because I believe that there is something to it that cannot be measured with statistics. And I know we differ on that. But being a part of a team, playing for a certain coach, being a part of a whole, that is bigger than just your performance is something I’ve experienced on a small scale just playing competitive sports myself. I can only imagine how much more magnified it would be on a larger stage. I don’t think all “team” credit is dishonest; I think players do react to environments. Not as much as Joe Morgan, etc, do, obviously, but I think there is more to baseball than a reel of 1 on 1 matchups.
"Bobby Crosby at third is a bit of an adventure. And not like, here’s some hidden treasure, what fun. More like, gah! poison ants!" --alea iacta est
by baseballgirl on Feb 10, 2010 4:05 PM PST up reply actions
And having said all that...
I don’t believe in traditional “clutch” performances, at least the way MLB announcers and media would have it; I do believe that statistics tell detailed versions of player performances and what to expect, but I don’t think that environment and team can be completely thrown out in any human experience, even baseball.
"Bobby Crosby at third is a bit of an adventure. And not like, here’s some hidden treasure, what fun. More like, gah! poison ants!" --alea iacta est
by baseballgirl on Feb 10, 2010 4:08 PM PST up reply actions
The kinds of people who become professional baseball players… are the kinds of people with a particularly close-minded, authoritarian bent.
… compared to the general population, the psychological trend is pretty apparent.
/speechless
Why?
I’m not making this up; it’s quite clear from social science research.
Shawn Spencer: "I’m receiving a transmission from your husband. Really more of a voicemail, if I'm being honest. A status update. Perhaps a twitter."
Burton Guster: "I believe it’s called a tweet."
Shawn Spencer: "There’s no way I’m saying that."
Here's a start
http://www.yaledailynews.com/scene/scene-cover/2008/02/29/athletes-on-the-right/ (survey of athletes showing members of high-profile team sports well to the right of other students; also lots about psychology of athletics)
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/27364988/ (Obama campaign unique in closing typically large gap in donations by athletes favoring Republicans)
Shawn Spencer: "I’m receiving a transmission from your husband. Really more of a voicemail, if I'm being honest. A status update. Perhaps a twitter."
Burton Guster: "I believe it’s called a tweet."
Shawn Spencer: "There’s no way I’m saying that."
by PaulThomas on Feb 11, 2010 11:43 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I see...
You’re equating conservative political views with being closed minded and authoritarian. If you live in a college town like me, you will find that the liberals are just as closed-minded and authoritarian, although you wouldn’t see them admit it.
by Chilango on Feb 11, 2010 1:59 PM PST up reply actions
SHUT UP NO I'M NOT
Sincerely,
A Liberal
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
... let's keep this discussion to baseball, please
Shawn Spencer: "I’m receiving a transmission from your husband. Really more of a voicemail, if I'm being honest. A status update. Perhaps a twitter."
Burton Guster: "I believe it’s called a tweet."
Shawn Spencer: "There’s no way I’m saying that."
I disagree with the last paragraph-
I believe that the team together is one of the unmeasurables that drive the hard-core stat lover crazy because it does indeed have an effect.
Since there is a well-acknowledged psycho-spiritual factor leading into people being able to use their talents or not, it is not hard to imagine that the poisonous aspect of the atmosphere of a particular team would adversely influence the performance of the individual.
This is one of many intangibles that cause the games to actually have to be played, because the game on paper is nearly never the game in reality… and also why just because a team like the Yankees might be the best on paper yet not win their division.
Or I suppose we could just call it all luck, and sit back and watch the great rock-paper-scissors being played out before our eyes…
by Chilango on Feb 10, 2010 6:00 PM PST up reply actions
sorry...
I meant to say that it hard to imagine that it wouldn’t adversely influence an individual’s performance. I need to work on using more direct language.
by Chilango on Feb 10, 2010 6:46 PM PST up reply actions
Totally Agree
The fact the majority of the game is a 1-on-1 match up makes it most compelling in a psychological sense, but at the same time makes it the most simplistic from an strategy standpoint of the individual player.
Peyton Manning’s ability to dissect a defense, combined with 10 other teammates performing specific instructions at the same time, is far more complex than the more natural reaction of a hitter seeing a ball in less than half a second and deciding to swing. The simple time gap makes it a more involuntary response.
"I was right and you were wrong." - Ray Fosse
Yeah, but Peyton Manning can't hit a fastball.
Celebrating my 5 year ANniversary... (SPWC/K56/ThePilotsDaredMeToDie/Gaijin_Suketto)
by Gaijin_Suketto on Feb 11, 2010 7:50 AM PST up reply actions
Baseball may be the least strategic of the major American sports but..
Baseball is perceived by some as a series of 1-on-1 matchups because it is catergorized as such, statistically. A box score highlights an individual stat line, an independent MLB analyst (whatever that is, if it exists!) analyses individual data sets.
It may not have the fluidity of other team sports but it is definitely a team game. You play as a team, rely on your team. I don’t know how anyone who has played the game at any capacity could argue with that. For sure, if you want to analyze performance you can break it down individually, but it is important not to forget the relationship between OBP, wOBA etc and counting (and ultimately winning) stats like RBI, R’s as unfashionable as it may sound.
Why do we want to know how well a batter gets on base? Because the presumption is his team-mates can ‘bat him in’. Or vice versa, a good hitter with a strong OBP is likelier to ‘bat in’ a team-mate who is on base. I don’t know if i can credibly believe that a batter with a team-mate on 3rd base, is so focused on his 1-on-1 matchup to not let the situation affect him or consider his surroundings.
To be honest, I don’t think you would find any professional (or amateur) in the history of baseball claim the team to be irrelevant. Not because of self-selection bias, or a closed authoritarian bent, but because they play a human sport with innumerable human interactions (physical and psychological). Be it the relationship of the catcher/pitcher, the double play combo of the 2B/SS, the battle between hitter/pitcher and then subsequent hitter on the team.
The team aspect of the game is more often than not irrelevant to those analyzing the individual performances. However the team aspect is fundamental to the social, psychological, sporting and competitive nature of the sport. Sport does deal with after all, human nature.
Don’t get lost in your spreadsheets.
If you spend too much time glued to the map PT, you tend to mistake it for the territory ;-).
by TheQuestforMerlin on Feb 11, 2010 12:09 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Sorry, I meant the problem itself
I believe all of those factors I listed contribute to the problem of pitchers staying healthy. A more enlightened business might look at the stats and see all the pitchers whose arms blew out when they were 24, not look at Cy Young or Nolan Ryan. A more enlightened business might be more accepting of Mike Marshall’s work, or sponsor similar work itself. A more enlightened business might try to get over the idea that pain = toughness. Etc.
Why didn't Beane continue this when Peterson left?
I support the idea of biomechanical analysis, but either Billy doesn’t believe in it himself or he doesn’t understand it enough to implement it. The only way melt the iceberg of baseball lore is to do it, so I have to wonder why the A’s aren’t doing it, given its prior success and the poor injury history we have right now.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
Agree completely
Hell, I don’t understand it at all; hence the post asking you all what you think. But it seems like there IS some research out there, that has worked…and we aren’t a healthy team. Granted, that’s because we acquire players like Sheets, who don’t help the average, but overall, we have still had some pitcher health issues the last few years from our own:
Duchscherer, Devine, Outman, Casilla, Hudson, Mulder, Dotel, etc etc.
"Bobby Crosby at third is a bit of an adventure. And not like, here’s some hidden treasure, what fun. More like, gah! poison ants!" --alea iacta est
by baseballgirl on Feb 10, 2010 11:49 AM PST up reply actions
p.s. - I like how you respond to almost every comment on your posts
It is much appreciated
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Feb 10, 2010 11:55 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
(lets test that)
OMFG HI BBG!!!!! :3
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
HI MIKEV!!!
how the heck are ya?!?!?!?
"Bobby Crosby at third is a bit of an adventure. And not like, here’s some hidden treasure, what fun. More like, gah! poison ants!" --alea iacta est
by baseballgirl on Feb 10, 2010 2:23 PM PST up reply actions
:WOOHOO:
I’m pretty good. You?
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Pretty good...pitchers and catchers report in TEN DAYS!!!
I CAN’T WAIT!
"Bobby Crosby at third is a bit of an adventure. And not like, here’s some hidden treasure, what fun. More like, gah! poison ants!" --alea iacta est
by baseballgirl on Feb 10, 2010 3:01 PM PST up reply actions
TEN. DAYS.
Sorry, got a little excited.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
hope nobody had to clean up after that...
Celebrating my 5 year ANniversary... (SPWC/K56/ThePilotsDaredMeToDie/Gaijin_Suketto)
by Gaijin_Suketto on Feb 10, 2010 3:34 PM PST up reply actions
I rather enjoyed it, TYVM.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
biomechanical?
i think you just melted my brain
by OakA'sHoney on Feb 10, 2010 12:05 PM PST up reply actions
One reason is because it was probably Peterson who used this and not the manager or BB.
So if someone here can send this post to Curt Young we may see a pitching revolution for the A’s
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
Excellent question for Blez next time he interviews Beane
I’d like an answer to this. And I think Beane still deserves to be interrogated about how they’ve managed the position players health as well. I’m a huge fan of Beane’s, but this is, at least as it appears on the outside looking in, a major weakness of our gm.
chronic
The A's have had very few pitcher injuries in recent years, compared to most franchises
It’s masked by the fact that they’ve had a couple of players who are just incredibly unhealthy as individuals. But that’s just the way it is— Rich Harden didn’t get any more healthy when he joined Chicago. He’s just a really, really flimsy dude. Considering who’s been on the team, I have no problems whatsoever with how the A’s have handled pitcher health issues.
Position players are, of course, an entirely different story.
Shawn Spencer: "I’m receiving a transmission from your husband. Really more of a voicemail, if I'm being honest. A status update. Perhaps a twitter."
Burton Guster: "I believe it’s called a tweet."
Shawn Spencer: "There’s no way I’m saying that."
Conditioning and keeping players healthy should be comparatively cheap, and therefore, 100% doable for us.
The problem is that oft-injured players, like it or not, are cheap. With our limited funds, the only top-shelf talent we can purchase are the refurbished, damaged goods. Like Ben Sheets.
Always the summers are slipping away.
Find me a way for making it stay.
Exactly.
But that doesn’t account for other pitcher injuries…ones that WE had first.
"Bobby Crosby at third is a bit of an adventure. And not like, here’s some hidden treasure, what fun. More like, gah! poison ants!" --alea iacta est
by baseballgirl on Feb 10, 2010 11:49 AM PST up reply actions
There just aren't that many of those
Every team has a zillion pitching injuries, because pitching is incredibly harmful to the human body. If the A’s only have half a zillion, that might still seem like a lot, but it by no means indicates that they’ve somehow failed to heed lessons about biomechanics.
Shawn Spencer: "I’m receiving a transmission from your husband. Really more of a voicemail, if I'm being honest. A status update. Perhaps a twitter."
Burton Guster: "I believe it’s called a tweet."
Shawn Spencer: "There’s no way I’m saying that."
And that's exactly what I wanted to know.
If the A’s are “healthy” or not, compared to the rest of MLB.
Can you explain further the comment you made about position players? I’m curious.
"Bobby Crosby at third is a bit of an adventure. And not like, here’s some hidden treasure, what fun. More like, gah! poison ants!" --alea iacta est
by baseballgirl on Feb 10, 2010 3:57 PM PST up reply actions
I think it's fairly clear that when it comes to position players' soft tissue injuries,
i.e. hamstring pulls, strains, etc etc, the A’s are completely out to lunch. They constantly play players at less than 100% capacity, reinsert guys in such a way that nagging injuries never really heal, and use the DL in such a bizarre fashion that half the time the bench consists almost entirely of guys who would risk reaggravating an injury if they were actually to participate in a game.
Shawn Spencer: "I’m receiving a transmission from your husband. Really more of a voicemail, if I'm being honest. A status update. Perhaps a twitter."
Burton Guster: "I believe it’s called a tweet."
Shawn Spencer: "There’s no way I’m saying that."
VERY interesting.
I obviously agree; the DL has been a mystery for years. But it’s interesting that the pitching injuries don’t seem to follow.
"Bobby Crosby at third is a bit of an adventure. And not like, here’s some hidden treasure, what fun. More like, gah! poison ants!" --alea iacta est
by baseballgirl on Feb 10, 2010 4:09 PM PST up reply actions
I think you're completely right, PT
and I’m interested in seeing if this year’s extended depth on the bench and in AAA will lead to better utilization of the DL and time off, or if we’ll just be seeing the same old stuff with different people.
Celebrating my 5 year ANniversary... (SPWC/K56/ThePilotsDaredMeToDie/Gaijin_Suketto)
by Gaijin_Suketto on Feb 10, 2010 4:30 PM PST up reply actions
it's pretty darn good...
Celebrating my 5 year ANniversary... (SPWC/K56/ThePilotsDaredMeToDie/Gaijin_Suketto)
by Gaijin_Suketto on Feb 10, 2010 2:06 PM PST up reply actions
Really Really Really Great Article
I also totally agree that it is a valid criticism of Beane… why didn’t he continue Rick Peterson’s regimen after he left for the Mets?
I agree with all the talk about the need for more focus on biomechanics. I’ve said it before, but we need to have the equivalent of the AC Milan lab. Their team has been mostly between the ages of 32-38 over the last few years, which is well after the time that soccer players break down and become shells of their former selves, and yet they are still very successful because they use science, statistics, and biomechanics to keep their old players healthy.
You can change your job, you can change your wife, you can even change your gender, but you can never change your club.
Win or lose, we will always be here for you.
Fear no foe, wherever we go.
by johnjahafanclub on Feb 10, 2010 4:04 PM PST reply actions
Good post
I agree with the other folks who say that pitching is an unnatural motion—unless you’re a softball pitcher or a submariner, it really hurts.
Off topic, when it comes to non-pitching injuries, teaching players barefoot running techniques could help with leg injuries. Not saying players need to go Shoeless Joe on the diamond, but doing non-game running barefoot and teaching players not to land on their heels could only help.
@worldblee on Twitter.
Awesome post.
Keep in mind, of course, that "the best defense of Derek Jeter's life" ranks somewhere in between "the best fiscal responsibility of Mike Tyson's life" and "the best not-getting-assassinated-ness of James Garfield's life." -FJM
fabbo BBG
there is so much food for thought in this article & thread, well done =)
Hey, I just bought the team from Lew Wolff... who wants to play third?
Great post, bbg!
I had no idea bio-mechanics existed, and now I’m wondering why any team wouldn’t take advantage of it.
Unless someone's figured out how to determine tissue strength by looking at someone in the past few years...
the reason baseball teams aren’t doing full biomechanical analyses to predict pitcher injury is that it doesn’t actually work.
Can you explain more?
Do you mean that biomechanical analysis has no use in helping pitchers at all, or that it doesn’t predict injury, but there is some useful knowledge that can come from it?
Right now we can't effectively predict injuries due to pitching motions
We don’t have good enough models of the required joints – the torque analysis that’s in vogue isn’t really useful because it oversimplifies the matter. In order to anticipate failure in tissue, you need to know what forces are going where, and even then you’re not really very sure. We also can’t generalise what is a good motion vs. a bad one because everyone’s bodies behave so differently.
I worked on a similar but much more trivial problem for my masters thesis in biomechanics in 2008, and there’s no way that our understanding of injury predictions has advanced to the point where we can be confident in our predictions.
by Graham MacAree on Feb 11, 2010 1:11 PM PST up reply actions
Thanks Graham
I appreciate your insight into this matter, this makes a lot of sense.
A great read
thanks BBG. A very tasty hors d’oeuvre to enjoy while pitchers and catchers dust off their luggage and travel bags.
A's should consider killing two birds with stone
spiritual AND fix-all-injuries-with-one-touc position could be filled by having Benny Hinn on the staff.
alaska A residing in northern Idaho.
Why do you hate birds so?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I'd rather have Benny Hill.
“I got me finger stuck in me bum! I never should have listened to that little Dutch boy down by the dike. And now I got me finger stuck in me bum!”
Celebrating my 5 year ANniversary... (SPWC/K56/ThePilotsDaredMeToDie/Gaijin_Suketto)
by Gaijin_Suketto on Feb 11, 2010 7:52 AM PST up reply actions
but then all of the players would be falling down all the time
wait, is Benny on the staff already?
Here’s what you’ll get with Benny:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lvU-DislkI
The A's. The SWINGING A's. That's right, the SWINGING A's.
by eastcoasta'sfan on Feb 11, 2010 7:57 AM PST up reply actions
"Okay, Benny, glad to have you on board and I'd like
you to pay a visit to one Eric Chavez.
alaska A residing in northern Idaho.
I certainly wouldn't have my son do whatever Billy did
with Mulder and Hudson. The Rangers are supposedly exploring some new (or old) frontiers in this area.
There will always be market inefficiencies. The wealthy Wall Street types put more time and money into analyzing the market than anyone else, but they miss things that consequently become undervalued.
Humans are failbait.
Alien robot dominars now plz!
Celebrating my 5 year ANniversary... (SPWC/K56/ThePilotsDaredMeToDie/Gaijin_Suketto)
by Gaijin_Suketto on Feb 11, 2010 7:53 AM PST up reply actions
Some teams have been looking at pitcher health for a while
It seems pretty clear that conditioning AND mechanics together account for the potentially team-controlled variation in pitcher’s health (genetics and personal history being the other variables).
At least one team in the east, the red sox, takes the training seriously and does it differently. I’ve had the chance to speak with their training staff as part of a youth baseball program out here and it’s very clear that they are doing something entirely different from what most of baseball does with regard to pitchers’ health. They have been very active in looking at it for years.
Some of the things they do:
1) very little traditional weight training .
2) focus on core strength, balance, flexibility, and quickness.
3) most exercise based on construction, industrial labor and dock work. think lifting hay bales, operating a stamping machine, working a hammer, etc. Quick, dextrous movements with full range of motion and relatively little resistance. kind of like pitching . . .
I don’t know what the actual data is or how to compare it, but my observation is that the red sox have had a relatively good record wrt pitcher health over the years, and most of the missed starts over the past 4 years can be traced to particular things that don’t reflect on training (lester’s cancer, matsuzaka doing his own thing, beckett’s blisters, etc.).
If you think about the rotation of lester, beckett, lackey, matsuzaka, wakefield/buchholz and the key bullpen members papelbon / okajima / delcarmen / ramirez / bard, all but matsuzaka and lackey have been pretty healthy for a while, and those are the two who have not been part of the red sox training regimen.
So, while I don’t have an opinion on the relative importance of mechanics, conditioning, genetics and history, it’s pretty clear that the Red Sox do have an opinion on the absolute value of training, and anectodally it seems like there might be something to it.
The A's. The SWINGING A's. That's right, the SWINGING A's.
by eastcoasta'sfan on Feb 11, 2010 7:53 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
add wakefield and his back to the list, of course
I’m only a couple years older than wakefield, and would LOVE to have his back health . . .
The A's. The SWINGING A's. That's right, the SWINGING A's.
by eastcoasta'sfan on Feb 11, 2010 7:54 AM PST up reply actions
Speaking of pitcher health
He might just be the best pitcher no one ever talked about. I always had a lot of respect for him as the least heralded of the original BIg Three of him, Smoltz, and Glavine. I saw him pitch once at Candlestick, he picked apart the gnats lineup that day.
HoF for sure.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey

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