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Around SBN: NFL Safety Ryan Clark's Motivational Workout

Special thread for Cust haters

Jack Cust is no longer an Oakland A. He signed with the Seattle Mariners.

Many A's fans think Cust was a lousy player and they are glad to see him gone. Many other A's fans think those people are stupid and/or crazy for thinking so.

Me, personally, I think Cust was a very good hitter, and I'm sorry to see him go. However, I also think Athletics Nation should be a place where every A's fan feels free to express his or her opinion, even if that opinion happens to be that Cust sucks. I've noticed that any negative opinion about Cust is unwelcome in the front-page open thread. Furthermore such opinions are now being flagged as "trolling" -- as if expressing a dissenting opinion is not only intolerable but is somehow actively taunting those who share in the majority opinion.

This FanPost, therefore, is a place for Cust haters to come and express how much they think Cust sucks and how glad they are that he is gone, without inadvertently offending others or trolling. If you wish to back up your opinions with facts or logical arguments, you are welcome to do so, but -- and I wish to make this explicitly clear -- such justification is not required here.

For those of you who do like Cust and who consider ignorant and illogical Cust hate to be insulting or offensive, I invite you to register your disdain in the poll, but otherwise I recommend you stay out of this discussion since it will only make you upset. Please do not come in here and turn this into a stats-vs-eyes argument. Just let us have our little room in which to vent our illogic and stupidity. Thanks.

Poll
What do you think of the "Cust sucks" thread?
Finally, the truth can be spoken freely. Cust sucks, and I'm glad he's gone
116 votes
Cust does not suck, but I'm glad there is a place where people who disagree can express themselves.
119 votes
If you think Jack Cust sucks, I hate you and find you stupid.
62 votes

297 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 488 comments  |  6 recs  | 

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Comments

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I will then be the first to say it

don’t let the door knob hitcha where the dog shoulda bitcha

buhbye Kust

Ahhhhhh that felt good

Zooey Deschanel!

Cluck 'em all and let the Chick sort 'em out - DMOAS

You're worried that you'll come off as nerdy as frack? On AN? That’s like being ashamed of your alcohol use at a meth convention. - danmerqury

by ChickenStanley on Dec 8, 2010 9:44 PM PST reply actions  

et tu, chix?

If Pennington manages 17 HRs, I’ll vow to consume an article of clothing to achieve a humorous effect --Joey C.

by cityplANner on Dec 8, 2010 10:15 PM PST up reply actions  

oh yes =)

Zooey Deschanel!

Cluck 'em all and let the Chick sort 'em out - DMOAS

You're worried that you'll come off as nerdy as frack? On AN? That’s like being ashamed of your alcohol use at a meth convention. - danmerqury

by ChickenStanley on Dec 8, 2010 10:41 PM PST up reply actions  

don't let the door knob hitcha where god splitcha

anyone else?

"Gratuitous gesticulating together sounds even better"

by OmahaHi on Dec 9, 2010 9:25 PM PST up reply actions  

Don't let the door knob hitcha,

because it’s a hard object, and could leave a bruise, depending on how fast the door swings shut.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Dec 10, 2010 8:46 AM PST up reply actions  

We don't need a separate place for people of a certain opinion.

People get upset and call people trolls if they present an opinion without any sort of evidence, ignore other people’s arguments (or commonly presented ones in the sake of Cust) and generally have a baiting tone towards one or more specific members of the community. If somebody dislikes Cust, hey, whatever, that’s fine, everyone has their own opinion. If they state an opinion with zero evidential backup, are insulting to other users, and staunchly refuse to address counter arguments, then they are trolls, not just Cust haters.

rebuildingseason.blogspot.com

by Rebuilding Season on Dec 8, 2010 9:46 PM PST reply actions  

Very few of those things make someone a troll.

Baiting tone and insults, yes; everything else, no. This is a website, not a thesis paper. If people want to express opinions without offering evidence, then good for them. Not being able to tolerate that is the problem of the recipient, not the sender.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Dec 8, 2010 9:54 PM PST up reply actions   4 recs

What I mean is stating an unfounded opinion continuously in response to someone's counter opinion

If I say the world is flat, and you show me a globe, and then I say the world is still flat, then you take me a to a high mountain and look over the horizon, and I say the world is still flat, then you take me into a spaceship and show me the world, and I say the world is flat, then I’m a troll.

Note that I’m not actually giving any evidential backup; I’m just stating the same thing over and over and over so that you can keep spending your time breaking down points and arguments while I say nothing but the same thing and don’t engage you.

rebuildingseason.blogspot.com

by Rebuilding Season on Dec 8, 2010 9:58 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Well, I just plain disagree with that.

If the guy says the world is flat, you can show him a globe. If he still thinks the world is flat, just let him be. The only reason he keeps repeating it is because you keep trying to deny him his opinion. Let him be wrong already. He’s not a troll: you are baiting him, by repeatedly telling him he’s not allowed to believe what he believes.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Dec 8, 2010 10:01 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm not trying to deny anyone opinion, I'm trying to have a discussion.

This is what we do on this site; we have discussions. That’s the whole point of the site. If someone is coming in here solely with the intent on stating an opinion and not engage anyone in discussion, then I think something should be done about it.

rebuildingseason.blogspot.com

by Rebuilding Season on Dec 8, 2010 10:05 PM PST up reply actions  

That isn't "not engaging anyone in discussion"

that’s “not engaging anyone in discussion” on your terms. The same poster discussing that opinion with someone else could very well have a discussion, if the other person wanted to do so.

Deciding who posters should engage with and on what terms is censorship of the worst sort, and that’s exactly what throwing the “troll” card at people with certain opinions is all about.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Dec 8, 2010 10:10 PM PST up reply actions  

Discussion is a mutual thing.

dis·cus·sion   
[dih-skuhsh-uhn] Show IPA
–noun
an act or instance of discussing; consideration or examination by argument, comment, etc., esp. to explore solutions; informal debate.

—dictionary.com

What you propose involves no exploration, consideration, or examination. It involves shouting. I’m not talking about saying that “The only welcome discussion here are pro-Billy Beane arguments that involve regression analyses to back them.” I’m talking about just actively engaging other’s viewpoints instead of simply restating your own. What’s the point of having a discussion site if there is no discussion? If everyone agreed to the simple premise that “If I state an opinion, then I will consider counter opinions” then we’d have an extremely healthy site. If nobody ever did any considering and instead only stated opinions, then we’d have 200 fanposts every day and no progress made.

rebuildingseason.blogspot.com

by Rebuilding Season on Dec 8, 2010 10:17 PM PST up reply actions  

Again, not so.

I said nothing about shouting. What I propose is that if you don’t like what somebody says, and they make it clear they’re not interested in you changing your mind, nobody is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to continue to try and change it. All discussions have an end. Calling someone a “troll” because the discussion doesn’t end the way you want it is weak.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Dec 8, 2010 10:22 PM PST up reply actions  

By shouting I simply mean "wanting everyone to hear your opinion but not wanting it to talk about it."

I mean, what we’re doing here is discussion. We’re engaging eachother in the hopes that we understand each other’s views. You’re right; I consider somebody a troll if they actively seek to not have discussion despite stating their opinion. I consider that sort of attitude poisonous to this site; every new user that comes to this site and sees that sort of behavior and assumes it’s how things are to be done, that’s one less person who engages conversation.

If you want to state your opinions without engaging people, start your own blog, and turn off comments. Going back to the “The world is flat” example, I’d like to point to two points of the CGs:

3) Harassing/Baiting of users, e.g., “How about that Chavez; isn’t he great?” posted five consecutive times that Chavez makes an out, “The A’s will never win this game” posted 10 times in 30 minutes, etc.

4) Relentless negativity will not be tolerated. What constitutes “relentless negativity”? It’s simple: simply posting the A’s suck 100 percent of the time without reasoning or proposing solutions. ..10 Fanposts, or 10 comments, in a row about how the A’s stink with no reasoning or proposals is basically trolling and that’s how it will be treated.

If you say the earth is flat, and people engage you, and you persist in saying the same thing, then you’re being overly negative and baiting. You clearly want them to continue to develop their argument since you keep responding, but you don’t ever propose a solution. If person A says an opinion, and person B responds, then the impetus is on person A. If they don’t want to discuss, then they shouldn’t discuss. Luring people back into the discussion with further comments without actively engaging an argument is baiting.

That said, in a stunning turn of irony, I’m going to sleep. I’ll check back in the morning for counter arguments.

rebuildingseason.blogspot.com

by Rebuilding Season on Dec 8, 2010 10:35 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah Jeepers, you're guilty of the posting the same statement thing. That is baiting for sure.

When you've played this game for 10 years and gone to bat 7,000 times and gotten 2,000 hits do you know what that really means? It means you've gone 0-5,000. -Reginald Martinez "Reggie" Jackson

by Geronimo Berroa on Dec 8, 2010 10:37 PM PST up reply actions  

Again, wrong.
3) Harassing/Baiting of users, e.g., "How about that Chavez; isn’t he great?" posted five consecutive times that Chavez makes an out, "The A’s will never win this game" posted 10 times in 30 minutes, etc.

That means stating your opinion, uninvited, a whole bunch of times. If you are engaged about your opinion 10 times in 30 minutes, and it hasn’t all changed, you are not a troll for repeating your opinion 10 times in 30 minutes.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Dec 8, 2010 10:43 PM PST up reply actions  

There are different kinds of Cust haters

If someone says Cust sucks just like he says that the world is flat, it may not add anything to the discussion, but it only detracts from discussion if someone continues to try and convince them otherwise. I think some people just don’t like being told that they’re wrong. It may not be ideal to someone like yourself, or me for that matter, but for the sake of inclusion I think it should be acceptable.

On the other hand, there is the Cust hater who claims that the Cust lover is twisting numbers to make their argument convincing. I wouldn’t call this trolling, but that’s only because I am against calling anyone a troll. I do take this as a personal attack, and I think this should absolutely be flagged, and generally not considered acceptable. I would tend to agree with WaddellCanseco on this one: just flag and leave it, it’s not worth your time.

All of that being said, I don’t think this post was made for the second general type of Cust hater. If I hated Cust (I don’t) I would very much appreciate this post.

"Juuuuust a bit outside" - Harry Doyle

by ArunisArun on Dec 9, 2010 8:37 AM PST up reply actions  

My argument though is that if someone hates Cust, and they're willing to discuss it, then we don't need separate threads

People don’t get mad at well reasoned, calm, thought out arguments. They may disagree vehemently, but nobody that actually responds with care is called a troll.

rebuildingseason.blogspot.com

by Rebuilding Season on Dec 9, 2010 9:58 AM PST up reply actions  

Do you think that it should be unacceptable for someone to hate Cust and be unwilling to discuss it?

I love to teach, but lots of folks don’t like to be taught. If someone makes a statement that I think is wrong (most commonly because I think that they don’t yet have an appreciation for some of the statistical tools out there) I will sometimes try to explain my position. If they respond with another comment that shows that they clearly did not get/accept my point I may try to explain it a different way. If it becomes clear that they aren’t interested in my perspective, then I will leave them to their opinions.

Over time I will pick up on those who are least likely to be reseptive to my perspective and will leave them alone from the start. If everyone does this, then eventually that ANer will have very little talk about on AN and they will either take their opinions elsewhere, or continue to post their opinions because they weren’t looking for a conversation to begin with.

Above and beyond anything else, I think AN is a great place for A’s fans. I don’t have any problem finding the discussion that interests me within this site and skimming over the rest for potential new nuggests of wisdom.

Sure, this viewpoint doesn’t encourage the best discussions all the time, but, in my opinion, AN already has some of the highest quality discussion of any blog that is as broad reaching as baseball is.

"Juuuuust a bit outside" - Harry Doyle

by ArunisArun on Dec 9, 2010 10:19 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Not sure if this is the official site policy, but if I had my way, yes, that would be unacceptable.

I firmly believe that if you are unwilling to discuss an opinion, then you shouldn’t be allowed to post it. It’s one thing to make a post and forget about it because of life commitments, it’s another thing to continually respond to other’s well thought out reasoning with a refusal to discuss the matter—that’s selfish and inconsiderate in my opinion.

rebuildingseason.blogspot.com

by Rebuilding Season on Dec 9, 2010 10:23 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Pardon my prodding, but at this point I'm just curious to hear more of your percpective

Do you think that it is your responsibility to yourself to try and change things for the better at AN, regardless of opposing opinions? In other words: Do you think it is your responsibility to fight for what you think is right? I’m not suggesting that this is inherantly good or bad, I’m just curious at this point.

"Juuuuust a bit outside" - Harry Doyle

by ArunisArun on Dec 9, 2010 10:47 AM PST up reply actions  

I would prefer if AN were to operate that way

if the mods commented on this post/emailed me/talked to me somehow and told me “You’re wrong, that’s not the atmosphere we want to promote here,” then I’d shut up. I feel like it promotes a better site as a whole if everyone is committed to engaging discussion, and I do try to push that view when the topic presents itself.

Is it my responsibility? No; I’m not a moderator or anything of the sort. I’m just a poster. That said, I do have things I like to see, and if the community isn’t totally at odds with them, then sure, I’d like to see those things happen.

rebuildingseason.blogspot.com

by Rebuilding Season on Dec 9, 2010 10:53 AM PST up reply actions  

Just to clarify

When I used the word responsibility I was specifically referring to the idea that if you don’t do something you will feel like you are letting yourself down.

But I think you have made your stance very clear, thank you (and thank you for the intro to AN post).

"Juuuuust a bit outside" - Harry Doyle

by ArunisArun on Dec 9, 2010 10:57 AM PST up reply actions  

You're welcome I guess!

Thanks for letting me think out loud. I don’t think I’m letting myself down if I don’t speak of these things; Athletics Nation will continue to be a pillar of excellence in the blogosphere regardless of whether I participate or not. It’s just something I push because I have lofty ideals, and there isn’t actual baseball to talk about this time of year.

rebuildingseason.blogspot.com

by Rebuilding Season on Dec 9, 2010 11:01 AM PST up reply actions  

I was thanking you for continuing the discusison all the way to end

Not that you don’t usually do this.

"Juuuuust a bit outside" - Harry Doyle

by ArunisArun on Dec 9, 2010 11:03 AM PST up reply actions  

Different mods have different opinions.

I’m a mod. So is Leopold Bloom.

I’m pretty sure Nico does that on purpose. He seems to like having a diverse collection of opinions on his mod staff.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Dec 9, 2010 3:47 PM PST up reply actions  

I do strongly believe it is everyones responsibility to fight to make AN the best it can be

Taurus Apr 20-May 20
Honey or vinegar? That’s kind of the universal decision we have to make all the time, every day. Are we going to get what we want by being nice or being a dick? And you know what, Taurus? Every situation is different, there’s no one way to do things. Know what else? Honey and vinegar go together in a nice salad dressing.

by designatedforassignment on Dec 9, 2010 12:04 PM PST up reply actions  

.
On the other hand, there is the Cust hater who claims that the Cust lover is twisting numbers to make their argument convincing.

This is the one that really pisses me off. The other Cust stuff is easily ignored, but when you pull me into it and accuse me of twisting numbers, that’s too far.

by danmerqury on Dec 9, 2010 11:00 AM PST up reply actions  

mark this as the day that a "Troll" became a recognized endangered Species that needs protection

      
or whatever day you said it

"Gratuitous gesticulating together sounds even better"

by OmahaHi on Dec 9, 2010 9:52 PM PST up reply actions  

Dammit, those trollers are trolling for scientific purposes.

The fact that AN’ers like to eat trolls is irrelevant!

"Burt Reynolds witnessed the conception of his own dad, and frankly, that's what's wrong with him."- TPDMTD!

by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 10, 2010 11:03 AM PST up reply actions  

I'm Having A Discussion

With myself right now about how all this Jack Cust hate and Jack Cust love is just, at this point, counter productive. The Brass of the A’s front office did not feel that Jack was worth re-signing, therefore, he’s gone. That should be it.

Also, if someone posts a comment that you disagree with and you provide evidence to support your claim and that individual disregards it and you keep trying to make your point, it’s like pounding sand down a rat hole, you’re just not going to get anywhere.

When you've played this game for 10 years and gone to bat 7,000 times and gotten 2,000 hits do you know what that really means? It means you've gone 0-5,000. -Reginald Martinez "Reggie" Jackson

by Geronimo Berroa on Dec 8, 2010 10:36 PM PST up reply actions  

Right, that's why I just flag the trolls

It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2010 4:28 AM PST up reply actions  

FONETIK SPELING IZ D BEST!!!!

IT VUD MEIK EVRITING IZIER! DONT BEJT MI BAI JOR KOMENTS PRUVIN ADRVAJS!!!!

by elcroata on Dec 9, 2010 2:20 AM PST up reply actions  

Jor isn't fohnettik

It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2010 4:29 AM PST up reply actions  

truu

It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2010 8:27 AM PST up reply actions  

I rec'd this

It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2010 4:30 AM PST up reply actions  

me three

"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins

by justANotherAsFan on Dec 9, 2010 7:40 AM PST up reply actions  

Me 4.

When you've played this game for 10 years and gone to bat 7,000 times and gotten 2,000 hits do you know what that really means? It means you've gone 0-5,000. -Reginald Martinez "Reggie" Jackson

by Geronimo Berroa on Dec 9, 2010 8:44 AM PST up reply actions  

Actually, I was 4.

You were 5,6, or 7.

Here, have a cookie.

"Burt Reynolds witnessed the conception of his own dad, and frankly, that's what's wrong with him."- TPDMTD!

by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 9, 2010 11:07 AM PST up reply actions  

Im not tolerant but I never claimed to be. I rec'ed this post because If you claim to be you shouldn't do this:
sometimes you seem to represent exactly what you preach against, perhaps without even realizing it. It’s almost paradoxical – in your efforts to stand up for those you consider oppressed, you use use the same tools you so vehemently oppose, namely telling people what and how they should think.

and I keep seeing more and more of the so called voices or reason acting as they condemn others.

Taurus Apr 20-May 20
Honey or vinegar? That’s kind of the universal decision we have to make all the time, every day. Are we going to get what we want by being nice or being a dick? And you know what, Taurus? Every situation is different, there’s no one way to do things. Know what else? Honey and vinegar go together in a nice salad dressing.

by designatedforassignment on Dec 9, 2010 10:23 AM PST up reply actions  

What do I have to say so that you don't read it as condemnation?

In all of these, I thought we were just happily disagreeing, the same as you and grover might happily disagree about some prospect.

I don’t think I’m lecturing or condemning at all. Other than always agree with you or never voice a dissenting opinion, what do I have to do so that it doesn’t come across as a condemnation every time we disagree about something?

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Dec 9, 2010 3:32 PM PST up reply actions  

Like elcroata, I too have been sick, so I am sorry to answer this so slowly. My wireless also ate this several times so I apologize for this being more curt than the first two versions.

Maybe I notice it more because its the meta season but the way I perceive you has radically changed recently. Basically, you have publicly taken a kumbaya everyone has a right to their own opinion position here. For a long time when people would argue you would pop in and try to give your opinion in a way that was more of a heads up that a call to action. That position has given you a fair amount of social capital because after saying that you don’t have an agenda enough times and you just are trying to protect other people people believe that. Recently, however, thats not what you actually do. Instead, you leverage your position as a “moderate” and “voice of reason” poster to push your agenda.

There are some people whose opinion you don’t stand up for being valid despite You never support people who are being trolled with irrationality, or grammar trolls, or those who want a certain level of decency in the way their threads are treated. That is because you have an agenda to protect irrationality and stupid opinions and to negate a debate centric framework for discussions. That you have an opinion on how the blog should be run is not something I object to in the least, (though I think a blog run under your framework wouldn’t be somewhere worth visiting) and I actually advocate that people take a position to protect what they value on AN by arguing for it. I do however mind that you are disingenuous and paternalistic about it. Elcroata says it best:

You yourself can’t do it all the time either – others jump on "wrong" baseball opinions, you jump on "wrong" opinions about baseball opinions. In a way, if you wanted to start implementing such a set of higher standards with yourself, you should never disallow an opinion, no matter how wrong or insulting it might seem to you.

Because when you "lecture" people like you did above, you are basically saying: "It’s OK to tell the other guy that he is in a wrong, but only if I do that, because I really know what I am talking about and the issues that matter to me are much more important than the issues that matter to you".

Your position is inherently contradicted by your actions. You can’t just have a let everyone have their opinion when many of the opinions about what should and should not be accepted is mutually exclusive. For example, I think its trolling when someone repeatedly goads someone who is providing evidence with the equivalent of “unt uh,” which is diametrically opposed to someone who thinks that their completely unreasoned dreck deserves my respect, or that I shouldn’t mock their illogical position. Another example this case, the Cust thread you have set the terms of engagement and told many people that our opinion isn’t welcome. Further, RS had a perfectly reasonable definition of what being a troll is and you told him that he is wrong. Just like you can’t believe that everyone should be able to have their own religion when some peoples religion requires that the establish a state religion. Everybody cannot have the ability to express their opinion when people believe that the other person’s opinion inherently impacts theirs. So stop pretending that you do anything but promote your own agenda. Get off your high horse because really you are down in the proverbial mud with the rest of us plebes. Acknowledge that you aren’t above telling people that their opinion isn’t welcome because you do it all the time.

Taurus Apr 20-May 20
Honey or vinegar? That’s kind of the universal decision we have to make all the time, every day. Are we going to get what we want by being nice or being a dick? And you know what, Taurus? Every situation is different, there’s no one way to do things. Know what else? Honey and vinegar go together in a nice salad dressing.

by designatedforassignment on Dec 10, 2010 9:13 PM PST up reply actions   2 recs

You've made a similar argument before.

I honestly don’t understand it, but because I know you pretty well and respect you a lot, it makes me sit up and take notice.

But sometimes you seem to represent exactly what you preach against, perhaps without even realizing it.

Indeed I don’t realize it. Perhaps you can help me out here. You said

If you really support that theory, shouldn’t you then simply let RS have his opinion? "Let him be wrong already"? Why is it not OK for him to have his wrong opinion on who a troll is, if that opinion is indeed wrong?

I disagree with RS and I let him know it. But I wasn’t aware of anything I said that could be construed as not allowing him his opinion. RS himself says he wants to engage in a discussion, so I’ve shared my differing opinion with him. I’m not telling him he can’t believe what he believes; I’m just saying I feel differently. How is that baiting him?

To me it often feels like with many people if they believe A and I believe B, that is an unacceptable conflict which must be resolved by argument, and the only acceptable resolution is for me to change my mind. If I don’t, then I’m accused of baiting.

How can I express myself better so that I’m not perceived as baiting or trying to deny another person his opinion? Because I surely don’t intend to do that.

I am not telling the pro-Cust people that they aren’t allowed to refute the anti-Cust people and tell them how wrong they are. This post was in direct response to the fact that pro-Cust comments were heavily flagged in the other post as “trolling”. I personally don’t think they are trolling, and I would have much preferred such comments be welcome in the main thread. But since evidently many people considered the unwelcome and hostile, I wanted to create another place where such comments could be made freely.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Dec 9, 2010 3:29 PM PST up reply actions  

Started to answer

But I have a cold that will make my head explode any minute now. And as answering would border on being philosophical, I will pass and hope that you don’t mind. We can do this per e-mail, if desired.

by elcroata on Dec 10, 2010 6:05 AM PST up reply actions  

I know what you mean, it's not hard to understand.

It’s not trolling. Nobody is making anybody continue to respond to anybody. If you don’t like what somebody’s saying, then stop talking to them about it.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Dec 8, 2010 10:01 PM PST up reply actions  

Yes, I just flag it

It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2010 4:31 AM PST up reply actions  

To clarify,

this thread is intended as a place whereit’s OK to present an opinion without any sort of evidence, it’s OK to ignore other people’s arguments, and it’s OK to refuse to address counter-arguments.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Dec 8, 2010 9:59 PM PST up reply actions  

So this is place not to have any sort of discussion at all?

Not sure that’s going to go over. It comes across very exclusionary. You’re basically taking the “if you disagree without stating why, you’re a troll” and taking it in a 180 degree twist. You think the troll reaction is bad (and I agree), but all you’re doing is the reverse which is just as bad.

Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples

Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.

If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.

by DMOAS on Dec 8, 2010 10:16 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

why even bother saying something if you don't have any evidence?

the Cust “trolls” have evidence… the problem is that its not very good.

Taurus Apr 20-May 20
Honey or vinegar? That’s kind of the universal decision we have to make all the time, every day. Are we going to get what we want by being nice or being a dick? And you know what, Taurus? Every situation is different, there’s no one way to do things. Know what else? Honey and vinegar go together in a nice salad dressing.

by designatedforassignment on Dec 9, 2010 10:25 AM PST up reply actions  

I'm fine with this stance.

Your response to evidence presented is one that diffuses people from spending more time discussing the matter with you; as it shows you are acknowledging the argument but simply choosing to disagree, instead of re-presenting the same argument without anything new.

rebuildingseason.blogspot.com

by Rebuilding Season on Dec 9, 2010 10:46 AM PST up reply actions  

If there ever was "one of the first posts"

that was definitely NOT trolling, than this is it. Very well said, please get more active in commenting.

by elcroata on Dec 9, 2010 11:16 AM PST up reply actions  

You must be a veteran poster

no one bothered to correct you on your incorrect use of the word than.

by sf drift king on Dec 9, 2010 11:48 PM PST up reply actions  

Also, English isn't dude's first language.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Dec 10, 2010 8:50 AM PST up reply actions  

On many days

I don’t even have a first language.

by elcroata on Dec 10, 2010 10:31 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

QOTM, if anyone did that sort of thing anymore

(runs away)

"Burt Reynolds witnessed the conception of his own dad, and frankly, that's what's wrong with him."- TPDMTD!

by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 10, 2010 11:04 AM PST up reply actions  

Thats my point.

The heuristic evidence from watching isn’t very good but it still exists. We have trumped that with advanced stats but that doesn’t make the rudimentary evidence not exist, it just has been superseded.

At the end of the day you can hate Cust all you want, you’re a fan and thats your right. I wish more people took your approach which is Jack Cust’s value is irrelevant, I just hate watching the dude. I don’t think if Cust haters said that they would ever get a backlash.

Thats also hardly trolling.

Taurus Apr 20-May 20
Honey or vinegar? That’s kind of the universal decision we have to make all the time, every day. Are we going to get what we want by being nice or being a dick? And you know what, Taurus? Every situation is different, there’s no one way to do things. Know what else? Honey and vinegar go together in a nice salad dressing.

by designatedforassignment on Dec 9, 2010 12:11 PM PST up reply actions  

Well said

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Dec 9, 2010 12:28 PM PST up reply actions  

I generally agree with this

As a lurker who very rarely posts here, I largely share this view of Cust but haven’t wanted to get into it with his most ardent defenders — who do, I admit, have some compelling numbers on their side.

I’d’ve been fine with the A’s tendering Cust a contract, both last year and this; on balance it seems like a silly decision over relative chump change. Still, as I wrote in a different thread yesterday, those ABs where he never takes the bat off his shoulder are deadly to watch, and suck the life, vampire-style, out of an already slow sport (American League baseball, especially as played by the A’s).

Cust is both an effective offensive weapon AND a patch of black-ice Dead Zone right in the middle of your lineup. He’s a paradox akin to the Triune God; he contains multitudes. I suspect a lot of the reason GMs don’t like him is aesthetic and psychological: They feel like he deadens the game, renders his teammates comatose, bums out the fans and is generally no fun, even though statistics suggest he’s likely to help you win games. There is no question that psychology is involved with fans, who often perceive Cust as a rally-killer and RISP choke artist even though that impression turns out to be incorrect.

So I’m with you. I agree that Cust is apparently a useful hitter, and if I had been in BB’s shoes the last two seasons he’d very likely still be with the team. (I woulda butchered lots of other things, I’m sure.) But a large part of me is delighted at the prospect of an upgrade in entertainment value at that position. Illogical and irrational, maybe. But there it is.

by LouisXVII on Dec 9, 2010 7:08 PM PST up reply actions  

Nice post

Although in 2010, he really was a RISP choke artist. I’ve always kind of liked Cust (finally getting a break after years of toiling in the minors), but watching him last year was brutal. That said, it seems to have been a random bad year year for him hitting with RISP (he wasn’t horrible with RISP previously). But it’s also true that Cust’s power has declined over the past three years, raising concerns that it will continue to decline. And personally, I value a DH who hits a lot of home runs as well as getting on base.

Maybe Cust’s high OBP will play better for a team that hits well behind him. Last year he scored once every 7 at bats, his worst rate since he’s been in Oakland, despite a great OBP. That’s not much better than Ryan Sweeney (7.4), who had an OBP 51 points lower than Cust. Maybe OBP has gotten a little overrated?

As for the meta issue of “advanced” statistics, I expect many of them will fall out of favor or be replaced by other measurements in the future, just as ERA and BA have been (in some circles anyway). There’s never been one “best” way to evaluate talent through statistics, and there never will be. But that leaves people here plenty to argue about.

by andyinfremont on Dec 9, 2010 8:51 PM PST up reply actions  

OBP has not gotten overrated. Runs scored has continued to be overrated.

HE CAN’T SCORE MORE FREQUENTLY ON HIS OWN. All one man can do is get on base and occasionally hit a home run. But even if he hits a triple every single plate appearance, if the rest of the lineup can’t do anything about it, HE CANNOT SCORE.

As for the meta issue of "advanced" statistics, I expect many of them will fall out of favor or be replaced by other measurements in the future, just as ERA and BA have been (in some circles anyway). There’s never been one "best" way to evaluate talent through statistics, and there never will be.

No, not a “best” way, but certainly a lot of “better” ways. And a lot of bad ones. ERA, batting average, RBIs, fielding percentage, and runs scored are bad measurements. FIP, tRA, wOBA, UZR, and WAR are good ones.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Dec 10, 2010 8:55 AM PST up reply actions  

In the big picture, runs are all that matter...

…because the team with the most runs in a game wins. So in terms of offense, maximizing runs scored is essential. And of course Cust could score more frequently on his own if he hit home runs like he did a few years ago, or if he had better speed, so your first statement is actually incorrect.

But if you’d read my post more carefully, you would have noticed that I said “Maybe Cust’s high OBP will play better for a team that hits well behind him”. In other words, getting on base via the walk is OK, but without better hitters behind him, Cust’s value drops sharply, because he’s essentially a DH-only with declining power who only has a significant impact with better hitters behind him. That doesn’t make Cust bad, just increasingly limited.

I would have been fine with Cust coming back to the A’s for $2.5 million, if the A’s had also made enough offensive upgrades in other areas. But I can appreciate the team’s logic that it’s easier to find a more power-oriented and effective DH (in terms of what the A’s need) than it is to improve enough other offensive slots to take advantage of Cust’s fairly narrow skill set. Not to mention the concern that Cust’s drop in power (and presumably bat speed) will ultimately allow pitchers to go after him more, thereby decreasing his ability to draw so many walks.

As for the various stat measurements, it’s all about knowing what they measure, what they don’t measure, and how to use them in context. What you consider “good” measurements, are just as prone to misuse/misinterpretation (and more prone to miscalculation, in some cases). Ultimately it’s accurate analysis of the stats, not the stats themselves, that really matter.

by andyinfremont on Dec 11, 2010 12:41 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Well, in the bigger picture, nothing matters, because life is absurdity.

If we can focus the discussion to the small picure, however, while it’s true that runs are what wins games, there are certain events that are more likely to win games. Those are the events valued by wOBA. Cust would score EXTREMELY MARGINALLY more by hitting another 12 HR. That barely makes a dent in the team’s performance. 12 HR from Jack Cust were not the difference between second place and first place.

There is no proof that a team needs power to win. There just isn’t. You put lineup of nine .275/.400/.425 guys, you’re going to do fine on offense. To be clear, that slash line is roughly what both Daric Barton and Jack Cust did in 2010, although the SLG is more Cust than Daric.

As for the various stat measurements, it’s all about knowing what they measure, what they don’t measure, and how to use them in context. What you consider "good" measurements, are just as prone to misuse/misinterpretation (and more prone to miscalculation, in some cases). Ultimately it’s accurate analysis of the stats, not the stats themselves, that really matter.

Fair point. So here goes: ERA measures the run prevention of the pitcher + defense. However, it leaves out arbitrarily categorized “unearned runs,” and only the pitcher receives the statistic. The defense can change game to game, so the pitcher is the only constant. THIS IS A BAD STATISTIC.

Batting average: This measures the likelihood that a player will get a Hit. However, it leaves out other methods of getting on base, chiefly walks, so it’s not really an accurate picture of the likelihood of a positive outcome.

RBIs measure how many people were lucky enough to be on base when a player got a hit.

Fielding percentage is just one of the most arbitrarily defined, ridiculous “statistics” that has ever existed in a sport. It’s probably worse than QB Rating.

FIP measures only the outcomes that a pitcher can be responsible for, regardless of defense.

wOBA is a formula that uses weighted values to determine, essentially, how good an offensive player is. It was developed so we could evaluate players without wondering if a power hitter was better than a singles hitter. It WORKS.

I’m bored now.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Dec 11, 2010 11:58 AM PST up reply actions  

I was bored halfway into your first sentence

I agree that a team would probably do fine with nine offensive Jack Custs (given his 2010 performance, which is probably unlikely to be repeated in 2011), if such a thing were possible. But they only had one Cust (or two, if you want to count Barton), and he didn’t help much, nor was he likely to help much in 2011 given the team around him. Hence his departure for a player who hopefully will have more impact given the team the A’s are likely to have. In other words, your point is irrelevant.

It’s also irrelevant to say that Cust hitting 12 more home runs would not be enough for the A’s to finish in first place, because that’s not the appropriate measurement to determine if Cust (or someone else) is the best fit for the team at the DH slot.

As for your argument that “There is no proof that a team needs power to win”, this is simply wrong. While it’s not impossible to win without decent power, it’s much, much harder to win without it. I will write a separate fanpost about this, as it’s silly to bury the analysis here.

I could go on, but I think it’s pointless given your dogmatism. You seem to think wOBA is the end of the offensive discussion, but in reality it’s just a tool with its own limits and flaws, and must be considered in broader (and more meaningful) contexts.

by andyinfremont on Dec 11, 2010 3:08 PM PST up reply actions  

You're bored by serious discussions of how baseball works?
I agree that a team would probably do fine with nine offensive Jack Custs (given his 2010 performance, which is probably unlikely to be repeated in 2011), if such a thing were possible. But they only had one Cust (or two, if you want to count Barton), and he didn’t help much, nor was he likely to help much in 2011 given the team around him.

So which is it? Is he a player that needs to have power hitters around him, or is he a player that needs to have fellow OBP guys around him? And are you seriously saying that, when a team is full of bad hitters and one good one, it’s the good hitter who needs to go, because he “doesn’t fit the team”?

It’s also irrelevant to say that Cust hitting 12 more home runs would not be enough for the A’s to finish in first place, because that’s not the appropriate measurement to determine if Cust (or someone else) is the best fit for the team at the DH slot.

Dude, YOU SAID he would score more runs if he hit more homers. I explained that 12 runs doesn’t mean that much. Statistically, it translates to a little more than one additional win. Now you’re just trying to change the terms of the discussion because your point didn’t make sense. So what is the “appropriate measurement” now, so I can respond and then you can change the terms of the discussion again?

As for your argument that "There is no proof that a team needs power to win", this is simply wrong.

Looking forward to the statistical proof. Not correlation; looking forward to your proof of causation.

You seem to think wOBA is the end of the offensive discussion, but in reality it’s just a tool with its own limits and flaws, and must be considered in broader (and more meaningful) contexts.

So what are its limits and flaws that you know all about? And what are the contexts that make it “more meaningful”?

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Dec 12, 2010 12:30 AM PST up reply actions  

Yes, many of us are bored by that.

That’s why we have threads like this. Others who like such discussion have respected that. Why can’t you?

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Dec 12, 2010 10:45 AM PST up reply actions  

Actually, it was you (StJ...) who initially said you were bored (by your own post it seems)...

…I just responded in kind.

As for the rest, it’s you that keeps changing the terms of the discussion, your own definitions, and interpreting points out of context, which makes it impossible to to have a rational discussion with you. You want to argue rather than think/discuss, so I won’t invest any more time on you.

by andyinfremont on Dec 12, 2010 9:20 PM PST up reply actions  

Where can I read up about advanced basketball stats?

I’ve been curious for a while but unable to find anything.

A's Fan in Sweden

"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime

by travdog6 on Dec 10, 2010 7:02 AM PST up reply actions  

I agree with this.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Dec 10, 2010 8:51 AM PST up reply actions  

There is a basketball-reference.com, I know that.

But frankly I’m not sure I particularly even care for baseball-reference anymore, now that I’ve discovered the full breadth of how awesome Fangraphs is.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Dec 10, 2010 2:01 PM PST up reply actions  

Basically.

I use B-Ref just for minors stats (since FG’s minors stats don’t seem to be complete some of the time). I used to use it for splits, but FG has that now too.

by danmerqury on Dec 10, 2010 2:29 PM PST up reply actions  

Does Fangraphs have game logs?

I always used B-R for the splits. I often like going digging for stats on special quirky situations. That sort of stats entertains me but it’s no help for projecting or evaluating because you’re always working with tiny sample sizes, so I can see how predictive-minded people would have little use for B-R.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Dec 10, 2010 8:01 PM PST up reply actions  

82games.com is outstanding

Not a whole lot of advanced NBA stats you’d need besides the stuff you can find there. Basketball-reference is good for regular stats that include a few advanced stats.

Fantasy Sports Columnist for Big Cat Country

Follow me on Twitter if you feel like it.

Formerly Gallagher's Watermelons and Player To Be Named Later

by CaliforniaJag on Dec 10, 2010 4:02 PM PST up reply actions  

...

This could be helpful

Fantasy Sports Columnist for Big Cat Country

Follow me on Twitter if you feel like it.

Formerly Gallagher's Watermelons and Player To Be Named Later

by CaliforniaJag on Dec 10, 2010 4:03 PM PST up reply actions  

+1

Every man for himself...

by MMunoz33 on Dec 9, 2010 8:03 AM PST up reply actions  

(sits back and watches)

Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples

Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.

If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.

by DMOAS on Dec 8, 2010 9:55 PM PST up reply actions  

Sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet

I love green because money be green.

by Joey C. on Dec 9, 2010 8:49 AM PST up reply actions  

Yeah, I know. Too bad.

I don’t like seeing expression squelched. Either saying that Cust sucks on a front-page post is trolling or it’s not. If it’s not, then this post is unnecessary. If it is, as many have claimed, then there needs to be another place where those feeling can be expressed freely.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Dec 8, 2010 9:57 PM PST up reply actions  

I rec'd the Cust post by OP so I'll rec this as well

Cust has been a big part of AN for a long time now so people should say how they feel if they want to.

But seriously, folks....

by Bed on Dec 8, 2010 10:01 PM PST up reply actions  

I agree with this.

When you've played this game for 10 years and gone to bat 7,000 times and gotten 2,000 hits do you know what that really means? It means you've gone 0-5,000. -Reginald Martinez "Reggie" Jackson

by Geronimo Berroa on Dec 8, 2010 10:40 PM PST up reply actions  

The front page post specifically invited venting

It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2010 4:32 AM PST up reply actions  

And those who accepted the invitation were

flagged as trolls.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Dec 9, 2010 3:34 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Should be green.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Dec 10, 2010 7:05 AM PST up reply actions  

Its not the end Grover

  Mid season we will hear one of 2 post. Glad we got rid of him because he sucks for the M’s or Look at how he is crushing the ball for the M’s. When he wins a game for the M’s with a home run against the A’s the complaints will come. I just wish him luck against the Angels and Rangers.

by Arcman on Dec 9, 2010 7:33 AM PST up reply actions  

This thread is about creating a haven for posters

I will not violate that noble goal no matter how justified my righteous anger might be. I shall let this pass and bid you safe journey to your place of sacred worship.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Dec 9, 2010 10:38 AM PST up reply actions  

alrighty then

the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust

by stm72 on Dec 9, 2010 2:50 PM PST up reply actions  

+1

Every man for himself...

by MMunoz33 on Dec 9, 2010 8:04 AM PST up reply actions  

Well this is an interesting idea for a post, iglew

but that’s why I like you iglew….you come up with interesting ideas.

But seriously, folks....

by Bed on Dec 8, 2010 9:56 PM PST reply actions  

I've never gotten Leno

but I’m a Letterman guy.

But seriously, folks....

by Bed on Dec 8, 2010 9:59 PM PST up reply actions  

I knew there was a reasons i like you guys..

Do I have to comment on cust? Not a fan but saw his value through the eyes if those that loffed him. Wish him well and hope he gets to DH everyday except when he plays us if he is having a good season. I actually think a season with another team will give all of us some perpective and might even answer some questions for the cust doubters.

CT ..."he’s not just an asshat with a mic" - cuppingmaster

by Berry Jo on Dec 9, 2010 3:09 PM PST up reply actions  

The format died with Carson.

Everything since is merely filler.

"Burt Reynolds witnessed the conception of his own dad, and frankly, that's what's wrong with him."- TPDMTD!

by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 9, 2010 11:10 AM PST up reply actions  

The format was kind of dead on arrival.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Dec 9, 2010 11:21 AM PST up reply actions  

Not in the less information saturated world of the 50's & 60's it wasn't

"Burt Reynolds witnessed the conception of his own dad, and frankly, that's what's wrong with him."- TPDMTD!

by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 9, 2010 2:45 PM PST up reply actions  

Eh, I just think it's a really boring format because it tends to be a flagship program for a network.

That means it has absolutely no leeway to be innovative or creative or edgy. Even Conan, Letterman, and Kimmel, who have, at times, been widely hailed by alt-comedy folks as being superior to guys like Leno, are just way too restricted by the format. Conan’s new show might not be; I don’t watch a lot of TV anymore, but what I’ve seen of it doesn’t look too different.

I also think the format caused comedy to stagnate badly in the 60s, 70s, and 80s, particularly in combination with the comedy-club boom in the late 70s and the 80s.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Dec 10, 2010 8:58 AM PST up reply actions  

American comedy was at its' best in the '70's

with the LP Album format being the release format of choice for the most cutting edge material.

Richard Pryor was amazing in his prime. Firesign Theatre and the National Lampoon troupes were awesome too.

Then, there’s the Groundlings, Second City and Second City Toronto, the all-stars of whom formed the first Saturday Night Live cast.

"Burt Reynolds witnessed the conception of his own dad, and frankly, that's what's wrong with him."- TPDMTD!

by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 10, 2010 11:07 AM PST up reply actions  

This could be an age-difference thing, but I beg to differ.

The modern alt-comedy scene presents some of the most cutting-edge comedy art in history. Patton Oswalt, David Cross, Paul F. Tompkins, Matt Braunger, Greg Proops, Dan Telfer, Jonah Ray, Jen Kirkman, Maria Bamford, Brian Posehn, Greg Giraldo, Louis CK, Moshe Kasher…I could go on.

The early 70s were a good time in some parts of American comedy, but the cream struggled to rise to the top in those days, and by the end of the decade, what few gems there were in the rough were being crushed by the entertainment industry and social dogmas. Exhibit A is George Carlin, Exhibit B is Richard Pryor, Exhibit C a little later in the 1980s is Eddie Murphy, Exhibit D is Steve Martin, Exhibit E is Saturday Night Live…very few of the great institutions of comedy that were born in the 1970s remain artistically vital today.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Dec 10, 2010 2:05 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Green it up

Fantasy Sports Columnist for Big Cat Country

Follow me on Twitter if you feel like it.

Formerly Gallagher's Watermelons and Player To Be Named Later

by CaliforniaJag on Dec 10, 2010 4:04 PM PST up reply actions  

Out of the comedians you listed,

My top three includes two of them: Louis CK and Patton Oswalt (the other one is Eugene Mirman). I saw Louis CK live a year ago and he was freaking hilarious.

Fantasy Sports Columnist for Big Cat Country

Follow me on Twitter if you feel like it.

Formerly Gallagher's Watermelons and Player To Be Named Later

by CaliforniaJag on Dec 10, 2010 4:06 PM PST up reply actions  

How could I have left out Eugene?

Crazy genius.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Dec 11, 2010 12:00 PM PST up reply actions  

Roger that, gaijin.

Carson was the undisputed king. When he retired and Jay sat on his stage, I was absolutely appalled. I like Dave, I like Conan, but Leno should go jump in a lake.

"Well, I've wrestled with reality for 35 years, doctor, and I'm happy to state that I've finally won out over it." -- Elwood P. Dowd (Jimmy Stewart), "Harvey"

by Derwood13 on Dec 9, 2010 1:20 PM PST up reply actions  

All about the Cone Zone

I won’t dispute Carson being the best, even though I never had a chance to watch him. But if there’s one guy who could take the torch from Carson Daly, it’s Conan O’Brien!

I love green because money be green.

by Joey C. on Dec 9, 2010 2:28 PM PST up reply actions  

...Carson Daly?

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Dec 10, 2010 8:58 AM PST up reply actions  

I hate those Comedy Central guys,

for reasons that have nothing to do with their politics.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Dec 8, 2010 10:02 PM PST up reply actions  

around the time Moving Pictures came out

professing to be a Rush fan was an effective way to gain cred with older “cool” kids hanging out in the arcade.

by jakarta on Dec 8, 2010 10:17 PM PST up reply actions  

I was more into R&B when I was a kid

I got into classic rock in college. At that point, impressing the cool kids was a lost cause for me.

by ozzman99 on Dec 8, 2010 10:23 PM PST up reply actions  

Fairies Wear Boots

It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2010 4:33 AM PST up reply actions  

Everything they've put out since then has sucked biscuits.

Can’t we just put Metallica on a rocket and shoot it into the sun already?

"Burt Reynolds witnessed the conception of his own dad, and frankly, that's what's wrong with him."- TPDMTD!

by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 9, 2010 7:48 AM PST up reply actions  

been *awesome* to ride

the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust

by stm72 on Dec 9, 2010 9:16 AM PST up reply actions  

TWSS

Often wrong but never in doubt

"The whole thing was a piece of theatre. Billy had told Art how and where to stand during a game so that the players would... take strength from his countenance, because when Art sat on the bench... he looked like a prisoner of war."
-Moneyball

by darooster on Dec 9, 2010 12:36 PM PST up reply actions  

But everything from 1981-1988 was great.

Once they got old and famous, Hefield started phoning it in. He’s a self-parody at best.

Hammett can still shred, though.

"Burt Reynolds witnessed the conception of his own dad, and frankly, that's what's wrong with him."- TPDMTD!

by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 9, 2010 11:13 AM PST up reply actions  

Gaijin don't like blues-metal.

Also, Gaijin don’t like Death Magnetic, the best thrash album since Master of Puppets.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Dec 10, 2010 9:00 AM PST up reply actions  

I like post-punk.

1978-1983

Public Image Ltd, The Raincoats, Wire, Devo, The Fall, etc…

"Burt Reynolds witnessed the conception of his own dad, and frankly, that's what's wrong with him."- TPDMTD!

by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 12, 2010 10:22 AM PST up reply actions  

I have a tv, just no cable/sat

I wonder what else we have in common. Let me tell you more about myself. I eat, breathe, and drive a car. I love the A’s, and make purchases using money. I prefer people who don’t stink, and I hate pain.

by ozzman99 on Dec 8, 2010 10:41 PM PST up reply actions  

wimp

Zooey Deschanel!

Cluck 'em all and let the Chick sort 'em out - DMOAS

You're worried that you'll come off as nerdy as frack? On AN? That’s like being ashamed of your alcohol use at a meth convention. - danmerqury

by ChickenStanley on Dec 8, 2010 10:43 PM PST up reply actions  

oh you

Zooey Deschanel!

Cluck 'em all and let the Chick sort 'em out - DMOAS

You're worried that you'll come off as nerdy as frack? On AN? That’s like being ashamed of your alcohol use at a meth convention. - danmerqury

by ChickenStanley on Dec 8, 2010 10:45 PM PST up reply actions  

I always disliked Leno for his particular brand of condescending lack-of-funny

I don’t know that I’ve seen anybody get richer off of other people saying stupid things and then mugging for the camera, contributing nothing. You might bring up Sacha Baren Cohen, but you would be wrong because he actually says funny things from time to time. And he can’t be nearly as rich as Jay Leno.

Stupid Jay Leno.

I love green because money be green.

by Joey C. on Dec 9, 2010 8:53 AM PST up reply actions  

Sacha Baren Cohen

Also brings out the stupid in people. So yeah, he is actually doing something at least.

"Juuuuust a bit outside" - Harry Doyle

by ArunisArun on Dec 9, 2010 8:55 AM PST up reply actions  

agreed

Taurus Apr 20-May 20
Honey or vinegar? That’s kind of the universal decision we have to make all the time, every day. Are we going to get what we want by being nice or being a dick? And you know what, Taurus? Every situation is different, there’s no one way to do things. Know what else? Honey and vinegar go together in a nice salad dressing.

by designatedforassignment on Dec 9, 2010 10:26 AM PST up reply actions  

I know someone's going to give me grief for this, but...

I think it’s time to move on. This is my first post, but have been a long time A"s fan and have been visiting AN for quite a while. I’m an engineer by trade. The analytical side of me that craves data to make decisions, loves Cust. You can’t find a more valuable bat for his price. However, the casual fan in me is ready to move on. I don’t care about the strikeouts. I’d rather watch Cust K 4 times per game than watch Suzuki or Kouz ground into their patented double plays. I just don’t feel confident when Cust steps up to the plate with runners on base and the game on the line. He just not “that guy” that opposing teams fear and teammates/fans count on in close games.

I don’t know if Matsui or Vlad is “that guy”, but I’m ready to find out.

by Hoegaarden on Dec 8, 2010 10:04 PM PST reply actions   1 recs

Guess I'll be that "someone"

How dare you come into this thread and try to be reasonable!?!?

Newb!

Congratulations on finally becoming a contributing member to AN. Try not to suck.

;-)

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Dec 8, 2010 10:09 PM PST up reply actions  

"Most of the regular posters are refreshingly knowledgeable"

And then there’s mikev!

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Dec 8, 2010 10:55 PM PST up reply actions   3 recs

true.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Dec 9, 2010 8:27 AM PST up reply actions  

+1

Every man for himself...

by MMunoz33 on Dec 9, 2010 8:28 AM PST up reply actions  

why isn't this green...

i lof him

Taurus Apr 20-May 20
Honey or vinegar? That’s kind of the universal decision we have to make all the time, every day. Are we going to get what we want by being nice or being a dick? And you know what, Taurus? Every situation is different, there’s no one way to do things. Know what else? Honey and vinegar go together in a nice salad dressing.

by designatedforassignment on Dec 9, 2010 10:29 AM PST up reply actions  

He's squeezably soft, except for the knife!

"Burt Reynolds witnessed the conception of his own dad, and frankly, that's what's wrong with him."- TPDMTD!

by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 9, 2010 11:15 AM PST up reply actions  

Welcome...

great post!

Every man for himself...

by MMunoz33 on Dec 9, 2010 8:30 AM PST up reply actions  

That's the beauty of this post

Grief free

"Juuuuust a bit outside" - Harry Doyle

by ArunisArun on Dec 9, 2010 8:40 AM PST up reply actions  

I never liked his batting stance.

"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."

by lenscrafters on Dec 8, 2010 10:08 PM PST reply actions  

He didn't run fast.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Dec 8, 2010 10:09 PM PST up reply actions  

That is the play that had Ken Korach go ballistic

“This team doesn’t have discipline or fundamentals, this is unacceptable…”

by hishnik on Dec 8, 2010 11:26 PM PST up reply actions  

I wish I'd heard that.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Dec 9, 2010 11:24 AM PST up reply actions  

I only heard it because someone posted it on AN

IMO KK has never come close the disdain in his voice calling that bumbled play (IIRC it was the culmination of awful stretch of 20 games or so). Out of the hundreds of hours of broadcasts I’ve listened to I have never heard any disparaging remarks close to that play.

by hishnik on Dec 9, 2010 11:33 AM PST up reply actions  

The Korach call was on a different play

This clip was originally uploaded by iglew. Let me see if I can share it successfully (you’ll have to download the file):
Korach’s call of Cust/Kennedy screwup, 6-26-09 (WAV file)

by Soaker on Dec 9, 2010 1:10 PM PST up reply actions  

That cracked me up

I know KK did not like Cust either. I’m sure he is now happy too

Zooey Deschanel!

Cluck 'em all and let the Chick sort 'em out - DMOAS

You're worried that you'll come off as nerdy as frack? On AN? That’s like being ashamed of your alcohol use at a meth convention. - danmerqury

by ChickenStanley on Dec 9, 2010 1:16 PM PST up reply actions  

KK's "this is unacceptable" has me cracking up over here. TY for posting this.

When you've played this game for 10 years and gone to bat 7,000 times and gotten 2,000 hits do you know what that really means? It means you've gone 0-5,000. -Reginald Martinez "Reggie" Jackson

by Geronimo Berroa on Dec 9, 2010 1:43 PM PST up reply actions  

I remember that.

I was so amazed by KenKo’s candor that I had to hear it again. There’s no way to skip around in the MLB audio archive (or at least none that I can figure it out), so I set my browser to replay the whole damn game and I set a timer so I could go in and record the relevant bit when it came up.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Dec 9, 2010 3:40 PM PST up reply actions  

Thanks for being the original poster for that

listening to it again was great, I had forgotten the “People are paying good money to come to ballpark”, Calls like this make me wish I could more easily replace Fosse with the captain more easily on Televised games.

by hishnik on Dec 9, 2010 9:39 PM PST up reply actions  

That's the incredible part, yeah, that he can't even finish his sentence.

“So one out, two on, and the pitch to Fowler, a switch-hitter batting left, is taken insipeople are paying good money to come to the ballpark, Chris.”

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Dec 10, 2010 9:05 AM PST up reply actions  

I'm glad he's gone to Seattle

I like the Mariners somewhat, so it’s easy enough to wish him well. He sure seemed happy to have the chance to move on elsewhere. I’m glad he’s gone and am perfectly fine with paying more money for similar production from the DH if he wasn’t going to be a good fit for the team or clubhouse.

by jakarta on Dec 8, 2010 10:12 PM PST reply actions  

so this

is what the back of the bus look like

Ray Fosse thinks Pete Rose is a prick......

by oakwin2004 on Dec 8, 2010 10:26 PM PST reply actions   3 recs

Rec'd

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Dec 8, 2010 10:28 PM PST up reply actions  

Dude????

Really??? This has nothing to do with that. Nothing.

From Grade School to Public Transit, The back of the bus is “reserved” for the hoodlums. Nerds up front… Pot smoking, Cust-Hating, Non-Stat having hoodlums in the back.

by Colorado Fan on Dec 9, 2010 11:46 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Exactly.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Dec 9, 2010 12:29 PM PST up reply actions  

What's funny is I always sat in the back of the bus.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Dec 9, 2010 12:48 PM PST up reply actions  

That doesn't surprise me

Often wrong but never in doubt

"The whole thing was a piece of theatre. Billy had told Art how and where to stand during a game so that the players would... take strength from his countenance, because when Art sat on the bench... he looked like a prisoner of war."
-Moneyball

by darooster on Dec 9, 2010 12:54 PM PST up reply actions  

I always walked to school

I couldn’t be bothered with the bus riffraff

Zooey Deschanel!

Cluck 'em all and let the Chick sort 'em out - DMOAS

You're worried that you'll come off as nerdy as frack? On AN? That’s like being ashamed of your alcohol use at a meth convention. - danmerqury

by ChickenStanley on Dec 9, 2010 12:55 PM PST up reply actions  

Ooo

so I went from being fat and stupid to edgy cool guy!

I love america!

Zooey Deschanel!

Cluck 'em all and let the Chick sort 'em out - DMOAS

You're worried that you'll come off as nerdy as frack? On AN? That’s like being ashamed of your alcohol use at a meth convention. - danmerqury

by ChickenStanley on Dec 10, 2010 5:12 PM PST up reply actions  

I hated Kust

I’ve always hated Kust. Your constant clutch strickouts will not be missed.

Bring Dan Haren back to Oakland!

by X-Pac on Dec 8, 2010 10:43 PM PST reply actions  

let it all out

it will make you feel better

Zooey Deschanel!

Cluck 'em all and let the Chick sort 'em out - DMOAS

You're worried that you'll come off as nerdy as frack? On AN? That’s like being ashamed of your alcohol use at a meth convention. - danmerqury

by ChickenStanley on Dec 8, 2010 10:44 PM PST up reply actions  

I can tell

good for you

Zooey Deschanel!

Cluck 'em all and let the Chick sort 'em out - DMOAS

You're worried that you'll come off as nerdy as frack? On AN? That’s like being ashamed of your alcohol use at a meth convention. - danmerqury

by ChickenStanley on Dec 8, 2010 10:53 PM PST up reply actions  

To be fair, their should be a poll option for

“I believe Cust sucks, but I value places like AN for their thoughtful and insightful analysis of baseball, nonetheless.”

(For what it’s worth, it still wouldn’t have been my vote.)

Take your silver mod tubescreamer, your dr. z, your nocaster, put them in a pile and burn them. if god gave you a thousand years, you still couldn't touch this. you can't f***ing keep time to this.

by Elvez on Dec 8, 2010 10:45 PM PST reply actions  

*there

Take your silver mod tubescreamer, your dr. z, your nocaster, put them in a pile and burn them. if god gave you a thousand years, you still couldn't touch this. you can't f***ing keep time to this.

by Elvez on Dec 8, 2010 10:45 PM PST up reply actions  

you all took Cust for granted, he will win the gold glove at third base next season for the Mariners!

by BlackVU on Dec 8, 2010 10:47 PM PST reply actions  

nice first post

the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust

by stm72 on Dec 8, 2010 10:50 PM PST up reply actions  

Not a huge fan....

but at 2.5 million? Would have been worth spending 3 considering some of the other options being looked at.

by ChuckBudd on Dec 8, 2010 10:52 PM PST reply actions   1 recs

This might be my favorite Cust comment ever.

Seriously.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Dec 9, 2010 11:25 AM PST up reply actions  

Just glad that

Discussions won’t be dominated by ‘Jack Cust is good’ or ‘you are not a real fan if you don’t like Jack Cust’ comments.

And BTW, I liked watching Eric Byrnes play.

There, I said it. And I’m really not a troll.

by JohnDoe on Dec 8, 2010 11:19 PM PST reply actions  

I liked Byrnes too

It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2010 4:35 AM PST up reply actions  

Same here

The guy was enthusiastic, and he seemed to crush the lefties.

Nobody expects some kind of obscure Monty Python allusion.

by EddieVegas_NRAF on Dec 9, 2010 11:18 AM PST up reply actions  

Also a Byrnes fan

But a Cust hater. I know the stats boys say there is no such thing as clutch, but if there is an anti-clutch, it is Jack Cust.

Often wrong but never in doubt

"The whole thing was a piece of theatre. Billy had told Art how and where to stand during a game so that the players would... take strength from his countenance, because when Art sat on the bench... he looked like a prisoner of war."
-Moneyball

by darooster on Dec 9, 2010 12:39 PM PST up reply actions  

I know the scientists say there is no such thing as a unicorn, but if there as an anti-unicorn, it's Jack Cust.

Just so you’re aware, Jack Cust has great career numbers with RISP, and Byrnes plays beer-league softball now.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Dec 10, 2010 9:09 AM PST up reply actions  

His numbers aren't great.

They’re just not worse than his non-RISP numbers. He hits for the same average with more walks (and less power).

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Dec 10, 2010 9:46 AM PST up reply actions  

The problem with Cust

is that this team is too weak in terms of power to have a DH who’s HR/FB% has gone down each season, and was at 14.9% in 2010 compared to 31.7% in 2007. His BABIP in 2010 was also a ridiculous .387, which is 40 points higher than his career average.

I understand the infatuation with Cust after his 2007 season, but the fact of the matter is that we never made the playoffs with him on the team.

It is time to make some changes is all

Work as if everything depends on you and Pray knowing that everything depends on God. - Michael Taylor

by supermarc589 on Dec 9, 2010 12:11 AM PST reply actions  

Bring back Chavvy!

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Dec 9, 2010 3:41 PM PST up reply actions  

Mark Kiger

The only time in the Beane-era that we made it to the ALCS was with Mark Kiger and D’Angelo Jimenez manning 2B! Bring them back now!

BOTTOM LINE!

by el generico on Dec 11, 2010 6:31 AM PST up reply actions  

i agree. i wish the team had more power. it's hard not to like a guy that gets on base a lot though.

the problem is the other 8 guys, not cust. if our 1B, 3B, LF and RF had more than middling power, we wouldn’t spend any time talking about cust.

but because nobody has power, some waste their hate on cust.

i think it’s unfair to a guy that’s pretty good

the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust

by stm72 on Dec 9, 2010 9:19 AM PST up reply actions  

You missed the point

  It was not that people hated Cust. He was a good ball player for the team. He had good fan base and truly loved playing the game. The problem was many here thought he was the best player on the team. Cust could do no wrong. Here on AN people talk bad about every player. Even CaHill or Bailey can do nothing right. If you complain about Cust you would be raked over the coals by the love Cust fan base. Cust like all players have his good points and bad points. Look even Derek Jeter gets blasted by Yank fans.

by Arcman on Dec 9, 2010 7:25 AM PST reply actions  

"Even Derek Jeter" is your example?

He sucks now. Like, objectively, he’s not good.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Dec 9, 2010 11:27 AM PST up reply actions  

um . . .

i’m not hating on you here, but I don’t recall a lot of people saying Cust could do no wrong. Just that he didn’t do as much wrong as the rest of the offense.

The reason so many of us said he was the best hitter – not player – on the team was that the numbers showed consistently that he was, well, the best hitter on the team.

One reason why so many of us got frustrated with anti cust comments was that they usually repeated the Little League mindset that the kid who strikes out the most is the worst player on the team. That is usually true in little league and almost never true in the major leagues.

As the A’s best hitter, Cust was the king of the dipshits. But he was still the king.

"I feel like my opinions and judgments are just too corrupted by the numbers." - thejd44

by eastcoasta'sfan on Dec 9, 2010 1:59 PM PST up reply actions  

My Irrational "Hate" of Jack Cust is this

Baserunners on 1st & 2nd Base, 2 Outs: Jack is only thinking about getting on base. OBP will look great (Yeah!!! Stats!!!) Jack never grasped the idea of being aggressive and getting runners to homeplate. “Points” are good, Jack. OBP doesn’t matter in situations where driving in runs matters… and helps your team win games. Jack would rather take a walk and/or sit there with the bat on his shoulder.

Good Bye, Jack Cust.

by Colorado Fan on Dec 9, 2010 7:42 AM PST reply actions  

I don't grasp that idea either

It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2010 8:29 AM PST up reply actions  

AVG more important than OBP w/ runners on 1st & 2nd Base, 2 outs. Especially with the 2007 – 2010 Oakland A’s… That is my point.

by Colorado Fan on Dec 9, 2010 11:54 AM PST up reply actions  

Not really with 1st and 2nd but certainly with RISP

It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2010 12:32 PM PST up reply actions  

Why is it bad to get on base in that situation?

Base hit scores a run.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Dec 9, 2010 11:28 AM PST up reply actions  

The Point is this (for me)

Don’t be patient in that situation. I’ll take a guy like Vlad over Cust w/ Runners in Scoring position (2nd or 3rd base open), 2 outs… Every. Single. Second. Early in the count, Look for a pitch to drive. Don’t take borderline strikes when those “borderline” pitches have been called strikes all day long.

(This is a Fanpost for Cust Haters)

by Colorado Fan on Dec 9, 2010 11:52 AM PST up reply actions  

If he takes a walk though, and the guy after him gets out

it’s the guy after him’s fault.

rebuildingseason.blogspot.com

by Rebuilding Season on Dec 9, 2010 11:59 AM PST up reply actions  

Better to be the reason you score

than to let someone else be the reason the team fails.

What little kid that dreams of being a baseball player imagines himself in the World Series, bottom of the 9th with two runners on, and fantasizes about getting a walk to load the bases?

Often wrong but never in doubt

"The whole thing was a piece of theatre. Billy had told Art how and where to stand during a game so that the players would... take strength from his countenance, because when Art sat on the bench... he looked like a prisoner of war."
-Moneyball

by darooster on Dec 9, 2010 12:41 PM PST up reply actions  

The kid with humble dreams

"Juuuuust a bit outside" - Harry Doyle

by ArunisArun on Dec 9, 2010 12:56 PM PST up reply actions  

Or low confidence

Often wrong but never in doubt

"The whole thing was a piece of theatre. Billy had told Art how and where to stand during a game so that the players would... take strength from his countenance, because when Art sat on the bench... he looked like a prisoner of war."
-Moneyball

by darooster on Dec 9, 2010 1:02 PM PST up reply actions  

You say tomato, I say tomato

wait…that doesn’t work in print. How about: you write ketchup, I write catsup.

"Juuuuust a bit outside" - Harry Doyle

by ArunisArun on Dec 9, 2010 1:15 PM PST up reply actions  

Are you a kid?

Often wrong but never in doubt

"The whole thing was a piece of theatre. Billy had told Art how and where to stand during a game so that the players would... take strength from his countenance, because when Art sat on the bench... he looked like a prisoner of war."
-Moneyball

by darooster on Dec 9, 2010 1:07 PM PST up reply actions  

Whether or not I'm a kid has just as little relevance as whether or not kids dreams have an effect on real baseball.

The fact remains: If a player gets out during the rally, the blame lies on them, not the guy who got on base prior.

rebuildingseason.blogspot.com

by Rebuilding Season on Dec 9, 2010 2:13 PM PST up reply actions  

wrong. you have to know your roll. clean up hitters drive in runs. duh.

you can’t ask the 7 hitter or the lead off hitter to drive in runs. that’s just silly. only the clean up hitter.

the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust

by stm72 on Dec 9, 2010 3:09 PM PST up reply actions  

*role

the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust

by stm72 on Dec 9, 2010 3:09 PM PST up reply actions  

But it is relavant

Because I said this:

“What little kid that dreams of being a baseball player…”

And you chimed in about your fantasy. Not a kid, so not who I was referring to.

Often wrong but never in doubt

"The whole thing was a piece of theatre. Billy had told Art how and where to stand during a game so that the players would... take strength from his countenance, because when Art sat on the bench... he looked like a prisoner of war."
-Moneyball

by darooster on Dec 9, 2010 6:40 PM PST up reply actions  

Talking a walk in a MLB game WOULD be F'ing Awesome.

Stroll over to 1B and ask Kendry Morales if he had any naked pictures of his wife, then ask him if he’d like to see some… That would be awesome.

When you've played this game for 10 years and gone to bat 7,000 times and gotten 2,000 hits do you know what that really means? It means you've gone 0-5,000. -Reginald Martinez "Reggie" Jackson

by Geronimo Berroa on Dec 9, 2010 1:51 PM PST up reply actions  

If you actually had them...

…would be even more awesome.

Billy Beane... What have you done for me lately?

by UncleLeo on Dec 9, 2010 2:22 PM PST up reply actions  

ROFL... That would clear benches probably....

When you've played this game for 10 years and gone to bat 7,000 times and gotten 2,000 hits do you know what that really means? It means you've gone 0-5,000. -Reginald Martinez "Reggie" Jackson

by Geronimo Berroa on Dec 9, 2010 2:59 PM PST up reply actions  

Depends on what Kendry's wife looks like, doesn't it?

I mean, if it’s Joe Torre with boobs . . .

Nobody expects some kind of obscure Monty Python allusion.

by EddieVegas_NRAF on Dec 9, 2010 3:39 PM PST up reply actions  

Not to Kendry it wouldn't...

Unless you mean it wouldn’t be awesome if I had nudies of his wife who looks like Joe Torre w/ Boobs… Haha.

When you've played this game for 10 years and gone to bat 7,000 times and gotten 2,000 hits do you know what that really means? It means you've gone 0-5,000. -Reginald Martinez "Reggie" Jackson

by Geronimo Berroa on Dec 9, 2010 3:57 PM PST up reply actions  

It would be interesting to make a list of

the MLB players for whom one really could have naked pictures of his wife. Because, you know, a lot of them marry starlets, models, or former Playboy playmates. I’ll bet you could come up with a few dozen at least.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Dec 9, 2010 3:45 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm intrigued by this.

Billy Beane... What have you done for me lately?

by UncleLeo on Dec 10, 2010 9:02 AM PST up reply actions  

This proves harder to google than I expected.

Any time any woman connected to any baseball player is any sort of model, she pops up on all sorts of WAG sites, where she is scantily clad but not naked and no one cares much whether they’re actually married. As a result, there’s a whole lot of google chaff to be sorted in order to find the relevant data, which is especially bad if you’re on a computer that’s slow with image-heavy pages like I am.

Also, I’m about a decade behind the times so most of the players I’ve identified are past their prime and I’m not sure which ones are officially retired.

That said, here’s a start. Players married to Playboy playmates:

Brett Tomko = Julia Schultz (February 1998)
Scott Podsednik = Lisa Dergan (July 1998)
Aaron Boone = Laura Cover (October 1998)
Mike Piazza = Alicia Rickter (October 1995)
Reid Brignac = Lauren Anderson (July 2002)

I’m not 100% sure if Brignac is married yet, but I think he is.

Also, Cole Hamels’ wife Heidi Strobel was on Survivor and then later showed up in a Survivor-themed Playboy pictorial.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Dec 10, 2010 11:29 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Go Tomko

Hopefully he can win his 101st game before retirement.

by hishnik on Dec 10, 2010 1:12 PM PST up reply actions  

I like Tomko.

If he didn’t get hurt in late ’09, he would have had a nice ’10.

Dude finally figured some things out as a pitcher.

I hope he’s healthy enough to give it a try this year, in Pittsburgh, KC, or Sacramento.

"Burt Reynolds witnessed the conception of his own dad, and frankly, that's what's wrong with him."- TPDMTD!

by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 12, 2010 10:24 AM PST up reply actions  

I liked Tomko's sting w/the a's also

He was very thankful to be on a young ream and rejuvinated to make the roster. That performance against texas for win 100 was awesome also.

by hishnik on Dec 12, 2010 4:44 PM PST up reply actions  

KRIS BENSON.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Dec 10, 2010 12:59 PM PST up reply actions  

I searched for her.

Found many many pictures where she’s skimpily clad, but none naked. Perhaps I didn’t look hard enough, but I figured if naked existed it would be easily found.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Dec 10, 2010 8:04 PM PST up reply actions  

A kid who understands that you gotta know when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em.

That kid’s gonna grow up to be smart.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Dec 10, 2010 9:11 AM PST up reply actions  

You'll take a guy who makes outs more often?

OK.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Dec 10, 2010 9:11 AM PST up reply actions  

Do we have a stat that shows JC's Avg WRO? Or his BB to Balls in Play Avg WRO? Or maybe his K to Balls In Play Avg WRO?

It seems that all the JC hate is surrounded by the # of K’s he has and the timeliness of his K’s (ie: runners on base)

Btw… WRO = With Runners On

When you've played this game for 10 years and gone to bat 7,000 times and gotten 2,000 hits do you know what that really means? It means you've gone 0-5,000. -Reginald Martinez "Reggie" Jackson

by Geronimo Berroa on Dec 9, 2010 1:49 PM PST up reply actions  

Maybe his OBA w/ Runners on?

When you've played this game for 10 years and gone to bat 7,000 times and gotten 2,000 hits do you know what that really means? It means you've gone 0-5,000. -Reginald Martinez "Reggie" Jackson

by Geronimo Berroa on Dec 9, 2010 1:49 PM PST up reply actions  

We do.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?id=custja01&year=Career&t=b#bases

AVG with runners on: .249. AVG with no one on: .243.
OPS with runners on: .844. OPS with no one on: .818.
BB% with runners on: 18.1%. BB% with no one on: 16.6%.
K% with runners on: 38.8%. K% with no one on: 39.0%.

Jack is clutch.

by danmerqury on Dec 9, 2010 2:01 PM PST up reply actions  

Very Cool.. TYVM

Now I am not a “Cust Hater” nor a “Cust Lover”. I’m indifferent. I’m the middle. I rode in the middle of the bus to school. While I appreciated the BB’s and was always a little excited when he came to the plate (He could hit some F’ing moon balls) I was always peeved by the K’s. But, baseball is a game where even the best hitter, maybe ever – Ted Williams, failed over 60% of the time. Maybe not by K’s, but an out is an out. I don’t value a K’d out over a fly ball out over a ground out any different. Outs are Outs.

An individual arguing that K’s are the end-all-be-all and that Jack was not clutch, should be met with the very stats you just posted Dan. That is perfect information to share with a poster who maybe slightly naive to the situation he/she is getting into. I feel that greeting a “Cust Hater” with WAR or BABIP or wOBA is like comparing apples to oranges if the poster you’re presenting to is using RBI’s or K’s or AVG.

The disconnect between the lovers and the haters is not always the statistical evidence, its the statistical evidence that is being presented. If a poster values the old school statistics like AVG, K’s, RBI, HR’s then using those stats against them is best formula for a discussion or argument that you hope to win.

If I was on here arguing his timely hitting or K’s/BB’s, I think the information above might make me think a little different. But that’s me.

When you've played this game for 10 years and gone to bat 7,000 times and gotten 2,000 hits do you know what that really means? It means you've gone 0-5,000. -Reginald Martinez "Reggie" Jackson

by Geronimo Berroa on Dec 9, 2010 2:56 PM PST up reply actions  

The problem though is at times, the more obvious statistics don't accurately reflect the situation.

It’s very convenient when, at times like this, the statistics do. But if someone claims that Derek Jeter is a winner because he scores runs, we can’t just post run totals that reflect the contrary, since he does score a lot of runs. Instead, we try to post statistics that show Jeter isn’t very good regardless of his runs scored, but as you said, people often don’t care.

rebuildingseason.blogspot.com

by Rebuilding Season on Dec 9, 2010 3:16 PM PST up reply actions  

...And totally agreed with this one too.

To come at this from two sides is difficult, but it has to be done.

by danmerqury on Dec 9, 2010 3:28 PM PST up reply actions  

This fanpost shouldn't exist as it encourages bad conversation

{deletes self}

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 9, 2010 7:55 AM PST reply actions  

I was okay with bringing Cust back, just as long as it wasn't a full time DH...

I wanted to see a platoon with him and E5 rather than Matsui?

Every man for himself...

by MMunoz33 on Dec 9, 2010 8:08 AM PST reply actions  

Out of hand

Letting Cust go seems like a logical decision. A’s are overloaded with LH hitters. DH is a spot where you can usually plug in a power hitter and A’s are desparate for power. Cust’s power has declined dramatically the past 3 years (from 1 HR in 18 plate appearances to1HR in 24, to 1 Hr in 33).

by BlueMoon on Dec 9, 2010 8:40 AM PST up reply actions  

this is great

Now we are forced to improve at DH.

Manny is still available.

His worst seasons are still better than Cust.

Get his ass in here already.

by Billy Frijoles on Dec 9, 2010 8:14 AM PST reply actions  

He'll fit right in when we quit on 2011 and rebuild

It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2010 8:30 AM PST up reply actions  

No kidding.

I trust that Manny has enough ability left. I do not trust Manny’s attention span.

Billy Beane... What have you done for me lately?

by UncleLeo on Dec 9, 2010 8:38 AM PST up reply actions  

Irrelevant.

It’s his mindset as he walks to the plate that is important.

Manny-specific criteria, based on past issues. Not to be applied to all players.

Billy Beane... What have you done for me lately?

by UncleLeo on Dec 9, 2010 8:51 AM PST up reply actions  

Manny...

…has been known to “quit” on his team in the past when he wasn’t happy for whatever reason. More than once. And Manny’s reasons are consistently inconsistent in both frequency and subject.

When you asked about him finishing the at-bat, I can say that I still value his physical ability to get the job done (as DH). It is his mental dedication before he even gets to the plate that I distrust. If Manny is not happy, the team suffers.

Billy Beane... What have you done for me lately?

by UncleLeo on Dec 9, 2010 9:06 AM PST up reply actions  

I understand your perception that Manny quits, it can certainly appear that way

I tend to equate Manny with Randy Moss. It can be very frustrating as a fan to see Moss dog it on some plays; however, I can’t confidently state that I think that Moss’s lack of max effort necessarily is hurting the team’s performance. Sure, there isn’t much downside to always giving max effort, but Moss is a special talent, and so is Manny. If Manny actually quits on his team, then that is terrible. But if I recall correctly, Manny’s numbers didn’t drag even when it looked like he was quiting.

I also think that if this current A’s team is going to be a playoff team, then we will need players like Manny who have the potential to put up amazing numbers, even if there is also the distinct possiblilty that they bust completly. In other words: I think Manny is a great lottery ticket.

I understand if you don’t want someone on the A’s that has a reputation for quiting on his team. And if you don’t like quiters, and think he is one, then I don’t expect anything I’ve said to change your mind.

"Juuuuust a bit outside" - Harry Doyle

by ArunisArun on Dec 9, 2010 9:41 AM PST up reply actions  

Your Manny-Moss analogy is a good one.

I can see similarities. I think you make good points, but we are not the Yankees or the Red Sox… teams that can absorb that kins of loss for a period of time and still win. I think we are on the cusp of being either good or mediocre, thus we can’t afford the very real possibility that a disgruntled-Manny will disappoint us.

Billy Beane... What have you done for me lately?

by UncleLeo on Dec 9, 2010 9:56 AM PST up reply actions  

I will happily admit

that if we sign Manny, have a terrible year, and then see a disgruntled Manny I will be a very pissed A’s fan. I suppose I am just willing to take that risk.

And I agree, we are on the cusp of being either good or mediocre, so this is definately quite risky.

"Juuuuust a bit outside" - Harry Doyle

by ArunisArun on Dec 9, 2010 10:22 AM PST up reply actions  

I guess if he quits we can always cut him

It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2010 12:33 PM PST up reply actions  

Hey!

We could sign Manny AND Beltre and see who loses interest first! It could be a fun game to play!

Zooey Deschanel!

Cluck 'em all and let the Chick sort 'em out - DMOAS

You're worried that you'll come off as nerdy as frack? On AN? That’s like being ashamed of your alcohol use at a meth convention. - danmerqury

by ChickenStanley on Dec 9, 2010 1:00 PM PST up reply actions  

I wanted to chime in, but I lost interest while posting

Oh well, Cust sucks

Often wrong but never in doubt

"The whole thing was a piece of theatre. Billy had told Art how and where to stand during a game so that the players would... take strength from his countenance, because when Art sat on the bench... he looked like a prisoner of war."
-Moneyball

by darooster on Dec 9, 2010 1:04 PM PST up reply actions  

hmm

what?

[files nails]

Zooey Deschanel!

Cluck 'em all and let the Chick sort 'em out - DMOAS

You're worried that you'll come off as nerdy as frack? On AN? That’s like being ashamed of your alcohol use at a meth convention. - danmerqury

by ChickenStanley on Dec 9, 2010 1:11 PM PST up reply actions  

Subtly patronizing and openly insulting at the same time. Well done.

“…Cust haters…”. Why “hate”? Seems unnecessarily extreme as a label.

“If you wish to back up your opinions with facts or logical arguments, you are welcome to do so…”. Faux open-mindedness (to make up a phrase). Gotta love it. The implication that “logical arguments” against even exists in the OP’s mind is soundly thwarted elsewhere in the post when he says…

“Me, personally, I think Cust was a very good hitter, and I’m sorry to see him go.”,when joined with “…those of you who do like Cust and who consider ignorant and illogical Cust hate to be insulting or offensive…” and “…let us have our little room in which to vent our illogic and stupidity.”.

What’s insulting and offensive is the very premise of this thread. I cannot think of any better example that only “approved” opinions are welcome in AN.

Billy Beane... What have you done for me lately?

by UncleLeo on Dec 9, 2010 8:36 AM PST reply actions   1 recs

I approve of your opinion

It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2010 8:55 AM PST up reply actions  

Why no thread for Raj Davis haters?

Seems like a lot of people did not appreaciate his high average, speed in the outfield and excellent base stealing. I think he is a bigger loss, but very few people are mourning his departure.

by BlueMoon on Dec 9, 2010 9:07 AM PST up reply actions  

He just doesn't score highly enough in MAR

(Mourners Above Replacement).

I love green because money be green.

by Joey C. on Dec 9, 2010 9:12 AM PST up reply actions   2 recs

love

Zooey Deschanel!

Cluck 'em all and let the Chick sort 'em out - DMOAS

You're worried that you'll come off as nerdy as frack? On AN? That’s like being ashamed of your alcohol use at a meth convention. - danmerqury

by ChickenStanley on Dec 9, 2010 1:01 PM PST up reply actions  

MAR...That's funny

When you've played this game for 10 years and gone to bat 7,000 times and gotten 2,000 hits do you know what that really means? It means you've gone 0-5,000. -Reginald Martinez "Reggie" Jackson

by Geronimo Berroa on Dec 9, 2010 1:56 PM PST up reply actions  

rec'd

Every man for himself...

by MMunoz33 on Dec 9, 2010 9:35 PM PST up reply actions  

I prefer MOAR

MOurners Above Replacement

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Dec 10, 2010 9:19 AM PST up reply actions  

Yours was better

I love green because money be green.

by Joey C. on Dec 10, 2010 12:11 PM PST up reply actions  

And to that I say, "JAMES BOND WITH A SNIFTER"

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Dec 10, 2010 2:08 PM PST up reply actions  

I am. I think as the season progresses and inevitably our fielders go down, we will miss him much more than Jack, assuming we get someone comparable to DH

And the missing thread is not Raj haters, it’s Raj lovers. He was always hated on AN because of his very low OBP and SLG.

"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins

by justANotherAsFan on Dec 9, 2010 9:16 AM PST up reply actions  

and his treacherous defense.

the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust

by stm72 on Dec 9, 2010 9:22 AM PST up reply actions  

Basically everything other than baserunning

It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2010 9:22 AM PST up reply actions  

Batting average

He put together two very nice seasons batting average-wise (.284, .305). Obviously the Oak.Coliseum tough park to accomplish high average. So, Raj deserves some credit.

by BlueMoon on Dec 9, 2010 9:29 AM PST up reply actions  

.

his 305 average was a function of a 366 babip, which he won’t repeat.

his 284 average was coupled with a 319 obp, which is not useful for a lead off guy or a player whose main skill is speed.

i don’t hate him, but like many a’s players he was flawed.

the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust

by stm72 on Dec 9, 2010 9:40 AM PST up reply actions  

I'm not saying he wasn't flawed. I am saying we'll miss him because he's pretty durable

He had a bit of trouble with a hammy, but he recovered. A hammy shut down Conor for the rest of the year. WTF? We have an outfield, 2/3 of which is made of glass as is the #4. Davis was an adequate sub, as well as being entertaining on the basepaths, disruptive to opposing pitchers, and fairly OK in the field as far as the actual result of getting to the ball, regardless of his UZR (+ or – on UZR is like 50% of the actual numbers. Nuf sed.)

His OBP sucked. No doubt. His durability in an outfield made of glass did not suck…

Over/under on the whole outfield (or 2/3, to be fair to DDJ) being DL’d at the same time?

"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins

by justANotherAsFan on Dec 10, 2010 6:50 PM PST up reply actions  

Too bad he slumped in April and May.

If he’d have started the season strong, his numbers would have been a lot better.

He sure was fun to watch on the basepaths, though.

"Burt Reynolds witnessed the conception of his own dad, and frankly, that's what's wrong with him."- TPDMTD!

by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 9, 2010 11:21 AM PST up reply actions  

I agree

Hey G_S!

Zooey Deschanel!

Cluck 'em all and let the Chick sort 'em out - DMOAS

You're worried that you'll come off as nerdy as frack? On AN? That’s like being ashamed of your alcohol use at a meth convention. - danmerqury

by ChickenStanley on Dec 9, 2010 1:02 PM PST up reply actions  

Hey, guy with girlfriend!

I’m guy with wife now!

(My wedding dress was prettier than hers, though!)

"Burt Reynolds witnessed the conception of his own dad, and frankly, that's what's wrong with him."- TPDMTD!

by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 9, 2010 2:49 PM PST up reply actions  

I want pics!!

Zooey Deschanel!

Cluck 'em all and let the Chick sort 'em out - DMOAS

You're worried that you'll come off as nerdy as frack? On AN? That’s like being ashamed of your alcohol use at a meth convention. - danmerqury

by ChickenStanley on Dec 9, 2010 3:36 PM PST up reply actions  

And that's why a lot of us don't like batting average.

Because if you believe batting average, players like Rajai Davis look good.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Dec 9, 2010 11:31 AM PST up reply actions  

"Treacherous"...

… is both funny and apt.

I love green because money be green.

by Joey C. on Dec 9, 2010 2:24 PM PST up reply actions  

Very few people are mourning his departure because he wasn't very good.

However, quite a few people think we could have gotten more in return for him.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Dec 9, 2010 11:30 AM PST up reply actions  

You've gone over to the dark side, UncleLeo

This post is a bit paranoid.

Perhaps you don’t follow what iglew has to say in general, but I do. iglew is quite consistent about defending the right of people to have and express on AN “irrational” opinions and posts- by which he seems to mean- opinions not supported by advanced statistical analysis whether or not the majority opinion is coincident with their post.

In fact, he defended the right to express a not-well-thought out opinion in another thread called ‘Asinine Trade (forgot the word)’ and vented that he felt persecuted when designatedforassignment opined that the thread was a bad idea since it encouraged poorly thought-out opinions. His point in that thread was that AN’ers who just want to vent should be allowed to do so somewhere because they are surely not really allowed to do so on the ‘mainstream’ threads.

I don’t feel iglew is being patronizing, here. I am willing to give hime the benefit of the doubt that by using ‘Cust Haters’, he is attempting some humor, since virtually every time someone knocks Cust on AN, they are accused of ‘irrational Cust hate’, including grover, who has made an irrefutable argument about why he feels it’s likely Cust will regress in 2011.

iglew is specifically welcoming that minority who do not like Jack Cust, along with those such as grover who are not sorry he’s gone and who have a statistical analysis to back up their arguments, assuming they would even want to play in this sandbox.

"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins

by justANotherAsFan on Dec 9, 2010 9:04 AM PST up reply actions  

OK, so where is all the venting? This thread's been mostly about iglew

Could it be that “venting” isn’t as much fun when everyone else is “venting” just like you?

It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2010 9:24 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

It's the offseason

Threads go meta all the time. Why should this one have been any different?

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Dec 9, 2010 10:33 AM PST up reply actions  

I'm surprised the squirrels haven't shown up yet.

"Burt Reynolds witnessed the conception of his own dad, and frankly, that's what's wrong with him."- TPDMTD!

by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 9, 2010 11:22 AM PST up reply actions  

Feel the power of the Dark side!

Zooey Deschanel!

Cluck 'em all and let the Chick sort 'em out - DMOAS

You're worried that you'll come off as nerdy as frack? On AN? That’s like being ashamed of your alcohol use at a meth convention. - danmerqury

by ChickenStanley on Dec 9, 2010 1:05 PM PST up reply actions   4 recs

That is too awesome for words

Often wrong but never in doubt

"The whole thing was a piece of theatre. Billy had told Art how and where to stand during a game so that the players would... take strength from his countenance, because when Art sat on the bench... he looked like a prisoner of war."
-Moneyball

by darooster on Dec 9, 2010 1:07 PM PST up reply actions  

Damn

This makes me smile.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Dec 9, 2010 1:58 PM PST up reply actions  

Duly noted...

…and I don’t mean that to be dismissive.

I’ll admit that the title was off-putting right from the start, so that didn’t help. Then, as I read it I was thinking, “Ok, that’s not so bad.”. Then as I got near the end my conclusions changed and I started thinking, “Hey, wait a minute…”.

If it is meant as a “safe haven” for contradictory opinions, then I would think that terms like “irrational” should be left out entirely. It’s kind of like saying, “You’re wrong, and I will defend you’re right to be wrong, but you can safely be wrong here (we’ll just mock you elsewhere).”.

It doesn’t help that I have issues with what I see is the over-use and abuse of words like “hate” and “troll”, in general. There are legitimate uses for these terms, absolutely, but more often than not their use is way overblown and they are used more to browbeat and intimidate people with differing opinions into silence. (Note: the OP did not use “troll” as an accusatory term, but many others have in other Cust debates.)

Billy Beane... What have you done for me lately?

by UncleLeo on Dec 9, 2010 9:25 AM PST up reply actions  

Yeah, this post comes off as rather condescending.

"Everybody in the building is standing except for people in a wheelchair." - Doug Woog

"It’s like the lost burrito of Atlantis." - jeepers

by Where's My Burrito? on Dec 9, 2010 9:26 AM PST up reply actions  

I'll say this about Cust

My favorite game to play when watching an A’s game the last few years was to guess whether Cust would strikeout, walk, or hit a homerun. It was great when he did all 3 in one game.

"Everybody in the building is standing except for people in a wheelchair." - Doug Woog

"It’s like the lost burrito of Atlantis." - jeepers

by Where's My Burrito? on Dec 9, 2010 9:29 AM PST reply actions  

Why I'm glad Cust is gone...

Perhaps Billy Beane has a personal grudge against Jack. Nothing I know has confirmed that, but even if it were true, I think we need to give Billy a little credit as a professional and assume that this would not influence his decision to let go of his team’s best hitter.

My take is that Billy thinks (as I do) it’s time for the A’s to move in a different direction. You know what Jack Cust reminds me of, as much as he may be a good guy and a good slugger? Losing. Because, as others have noted, the A’s haven’t been to the playoffs since Cust became a regular with in 2007. Obviously, that’s not entirely his fault, but there is something to be said IMO, for shaking things up.

I think letting Jack Cust go is a wonderful turn of the page for the A’s. Statistically, I can’t really back this up, but here’s what most of us experienced when watching JC bat: “well, he’s either gonna strikeout, walk or homer. I sure hope it’s the last one.” To me, there was nothing more boring than watching Cust strikeout or even take a BB, which he seemed to do the majority of the time. And regardless of whether or not a BB improved his run-producing statistics, it did very little to improve his excitement factor, which, to me, was as good as a rally kill.

It’s time we start getting excited about the new A’s. I’m going to trust that Billy’s is working on getting us some offense that will ignite the team and send us back into the playoffs. And only if that doesn’t happen will I lament the letting go of Jack Cust.

These clothes are good enough to drink in, and so be these boots, too.

by Leap Year on Dec 9, 2010 9:29 AM PST reply actions  

.
Because, as others have noted, the A’s haven’t been to the playoffs since Cust became a regular with in 2007. Obviously, that’s not entirely his fault, but there is something to be said IMO, for shaking things up.

I don’t get it. In that case, shouldn’t we jettison the entire team, sans Ellis?

by danmerqury on Dec 9, 2010 11:07 AM PST up reply actions  

We should re-sign Chavez, too.

I hear Dye is still looking for a job.

Billy Beane... What have you done for me lately?

by UncleLeo on Dec 9, 2010 11:17 AM PST up reply actions  

Not necessarily

I remember being upset when John Jaha got injured and was out for most of 2000 after he had such a monster season and helped us to a winning record the year before. His absence created a place for Olmedo Saenz to make an impact for us at DH heading into the post season. Not entirely analogous, I’m aware, but my point is that losing some old blood can be good for a squad, especially when the team appears to be moving in a different direction.

These clothes are good enough to drink in, and so be these boots, too.

by Leap Year on Dec 9, 2010 12:15 PM PST up reply actions  

It just seems like all of this is fuzzy, vague, superstitious thinking.

“Old blood,” “new blood,” “get rid of Cust because he never took us to the playoffs,” “don’t get rid of all the other players, including David DeJesus, who never took us to the playoffs,” etc., etc.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Dec 10, 2010 9:21 AM PST up reply actions  

I am shocked... SHOCKED

That in a thread where people can post their Cust hate without provoking others there are like three people who’ve done it.

Cust Hate – Trolling = nearly zero people interested.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Dec 9, 2010 10:43 AM PST reply actions   4 recs

Let me rephrase that:

anti-anti-Cust anti-lack of supporting evidence for opinion

"Juuuuust a bit outside" - Harry Doyle

by ArunisArun on Dec 9, 2010 11:01 AM PST up reply actions  

OK, disregard both of my comments

Actually, nevermoon, if what you mean is that if Cust hating is ignored then it will go away, then I agree.

"Juuuuust a bit outside" - Harry Doyle

by ArunisArun on Dec 9, 2010 11:26 AM PST up reply actions  

Nevermoon...

tee-hee!

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Dec 9, 2010 12:31 PM PST up reply actions  

Nevermind

sorry about that

"Juuuuust a bit outside" - Harry Doyle

by ArunisArun on Dec 9, 2010 12:57 PM PST up reply actions  

I'll give it a try

- He’s an old skills player, and is therefore is likely to decline earlier than most.
- His numbers are trending downward, when you account for his inflated 2010 BABIP
- He was named in the Mitchell report.
- His sudden arrival on the scene in his late 20s supports steroids rumors.
- His recent power outage further supports this perception.
- While the guy can take a walk like no one’s business, thats not all that useful in terms of getting a runner home from third with less than two outs.
- Some advanced metrics like him (wOBA), but others think he sucks (WPA).
- My eyes tell me he can’t hit good pitching. And his walks are more often the result of a shitty pitcher nibbling or unable to throw strikes. I would like to see how Cust compares to, say, Matsui, against the elite pitchers in the game. I Matsui’s general advantage in the contact department has a more dramatic effect against those who pound the zone with good stuff.
- He appears to have had a fractured relationship with the manager and/or GM. He has made comments to the media.
- Contrary to popular opinion, the A’s could probably not have had him back for less than ~$4M, and risked having to pay a much larger figuer (or throwing a couple million away). If the A’s offered any less than $4, an arbitrator likely would have ruled for Cust (who I imagine would reasonably ask for $6-8M based on service time and comparable players).
- Contrary to popular opinion, the A’s likely could not have tendered him a contract and then immediately traded him. Those type of deals NEVER happen, and any team that traded for him would have taken on the risk of paying a $6-8M arbitration award. Why not make the A’s sweat it out and see if they release him in spring training?
- Even though an arb award is non guaranteed, the A’s would still have had to pay $1-2M if they cut Cust in the spring.
- At the time of the non-tender, Matsui had made it clear that he wanted to come to Oakland. Beane likely had a good idea of what it would cost. I doubt it will be more than the $6M he made last year.
- Even advanced metrics agree that Matsui is Cust’s functional equal at the plate. He will probably make about what the A’s could have expected Cust to make had they tendered him – $4-6M. He does not come with the risk of a higher arbitration award and therefore provides budget certainty. He does not have a fractured relationship with management. He makes more contact than Cust and therefore is more likely to get a runner home from 3rd with less than two outs. This is useful and is something that is not properly accounted for in banded advanced metrics like WAR or sOBA. He gets hits more often, and therefore is more useful in an anemic lineup than a TTT player like Cust (I have no evidence for this, but logically it makes sense – Cust would be more useful in a good lineup, where his two out runners on second and third walks were more likely to result in runs, than he is to the A’s where they need SOMEONE to drive in runs). He also carries the possibility of increasing the A’s marketing revenues among the Asian population.
- Many (most?) GMs in the American League appear to agree with the A’s valuation of Cust. Presumably, any one of them could have had him for slightly more than $2.5M. Off the top of my head, the Rangers, Angels, Tigers, Twins, Royals, Red Sox(!), Rays, and Jays could all use a DH(/part time OF). No takers.

by NRC on Dec 9, 2010 11:38 AM PST up reply actions   4 recs

exclamation mark was meant for the Rays

because, they a) desparately need a DH, b) have a very smart GM, and c) have a limited payroll so could be expected to pounce on any bargains.

also, *wOBA

by NRC on Dec 9, 2010 11:45 AM PST up reply actions  

Now that is using this thread to it's fullest

One note: proponents of advanced stats will tell you that WPA isn’t intended to evaluate a player. It is really more useful as a way to tell a story about the game.

"Juuuuust a bit outside" - Harry Doyle

by ArunisArun on Dec 9, 2010 11:53 AM PST up reply actions  

i understand that and its a good point.

but the “story” that WPA tells me about Cust is that, over the course of his career, he has not been very good at improving his teams chances of winning games. and i reason that this is because of his particular batting profile – a walk with men in scoring position is worth less than a hit, and a K with a runner on third and less than two outs is worth less than a sac fly.

by NRC on Dec 9, 2010 12:06 PM PST up reply actions  

I can buy it.

I may not agree with all of it, but this is well-argued.

by danmerqury on Dec 9, 2010 12:32 PM PST up reply actions  

Not well formatted though. My eyes hurt

It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2010 12:35 PM PST up reply actions  

i apologize

it was hastily composed in the interest of job performance

by NRC on Dec 9, 2010 12:58 PM PST up reply actions  

thanks

for the record, i think cust is a fine player, but suspect the a’s will get similar value from matsui, sans the baggage.

by NRC on Dec 9, 2010 1:05 PM PST up reply actions  

Fair enough.

My point is only that a “surprisingly” large number of “cust-haters” seem to only be in it for the lulz

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Dec 9, 2010 1:04 PM PST up reply actions  

and i agree

its a major reason i have stayed out of the debate until now.

i just thought responding to your post was a convenient place to drop my thoughts.

by NRC on Dec 9, 2010 1:09 PM PST up reply actions  

'get a runner home from 3rd with less than two outs.'

any way to find out Cust’s percentage of doing this vr Matsui ?

"Gratuitous gesticulating together sounds even better"

by OmahaHi on Dec 9, 2010 10:18 PM PST up reply actions  

go to the link below for very complete batting stats on Jack Cust

Scroll down to “situational hitting”, then hover your cursor over the headings, and you will find all sorts of interesting facts, many of which do not support the idea that Jack was among the great hitters of all time:

1) For his career Jack Cust has driven in a slightly lower % of all the runners on base when he came up than the average MLB’er has.

2) With runners on 3rd and less than 2 outs, and also with runners on 2B and no outs, Jack has gotten a lower % of them home than the average MLB’er. In both situations, his 2010 stats are worse than his career stats.

In conclusion, I’d say he is more of a table-setter than he is a 3-4-5 hitter who is expected to get the runners home. In short, his style doesn’t necessarily fit with the A’s needs lineup-wise, who kept following him with guys who either GIDP, hit an infield popup or whatever [cough] Kouz/Zuke.

baseball reference

OK, I’m gonna check Matsui now.

Well, whaddya know? In each of these situations as described above, Pornzilla’s 2010 numbers (I chose 2010 as much for the obvious reason that the slegna lineup is not the Yankees, as for the fact it is the most recent year…) are better than MLB averages. Of course, his career numbers are better than his 2010 numbers (That’s what hitting anywhere in the Yankee’s lineup will do for you).

"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins

by justANotherAsFan on Dec 10, 2010 7:17 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Now that's a big post.

- He’s not old. He’s like 31.
- “Trending downward” doesn’t mean a lot when the sample size is 4.
- A lot of people were named in the Mitchell Report. Have you actually read the “evidence” justifying his being named there?
- His sudden arrival on the scene in his late 20s supports rumors that he was always a good minor-league performer and was never given a chance to play in MLB until his late 20s.
- His recent power outage also came with an increased OBP. He’s a smart hitter. In the meantime, if your only credible evidence that he’s a roider is that he didn’t hit for power in 2010, you don’t have any credible evidence that he’s a roider.
- So I assume you also think Daric Barton is an awful hitter because he takes walks? Why does a player have to be a power hitter for you to value him?
- wOBA is the best offensive metric available.
- You’re not the only person who “watches the games.”
- So because he had a bad relationship with Bob Geren (moron) and Billy Beane (egotist), you don’t like him?
- He’s been worth $36M over the last four years. If we paid him $6M, we’d be getting a steal of a deal.
- The fact that Matsui is gettable doesn’t make up for the fact that he isn’t as good/cheap as Jack Cust.
- Matsui DOES come with a serious injury/dropoff risk, because he was born in 1652.
- The importance of “making contact” is absolutely accounted for in wOBA, in the sense that every single possible event that can happen receives a weighted value based on empirical statistical evidence and is then factored into the wOBA equation. It’s not like people just make this stuff up.
- When you say you have no evidence for something, it doesn’t do your point a lot of good.
- Doesn’t matter that a lot of people who happen to be in positions of authority make a bad decision. It’s still a bad decision.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Dec 10, 2010 9:37 AM PST up reply actions  

you make assumptions and conclusions about my opinion that cannot be reasonably drawn from my post

especially the paragraph about barton, who, you know, actually gets base hits AND has defensive value AND only costs $400k AND doesn’t appear hated by management AND can be reasonably expected to improve. i like barton. hes a useful player. and i have never once indicated i thought a player has to have power to have value.

in that same vein, i never said Cust was an “awful hitter.” rather, i acknowledged that i think he “is a fine player” but believe “the a’s will get similar value from matsui, sans the baggage.”

i also never said i thought Cust was a roider. just that there is plenty of evidence – direct and circumstantial – linking him to roids, at a time when lots of players were doing roids. no reasonable GM would just ignore that information.

and while i may not have had evidence for my point about Cust’s situational value and particular fit in the A’s lineup, justANotherA’sfan ran down stats (above) that support my conjecture.

by NRC on Dec 10, 2010 1:08 PM PST up reply actions  

-
barton, who, you know, actually gets base hits AND has defensive value AND only costs $400k AND doesn’t appear hated by management AND can be reasonably expected to improve.

First of all, you said you didn’t like Cust because of how much he walks, so I brought up the example of Barton, who had an IDENTICAL walk rate. Secondly, their OBPs are identical, and so are their batting averages, so you can’t say Barton gets more base hits. Thirdly, yes, Barton is a more valuable and much cheaper player. No one would argue that. Fourth, why does it matter who Billy Beane irrationally hates? Fifth, you haven’t given ARGUMENTS for why you think Cust is going to crater.

i have never once indicated i thought a player has to have power to have value.

When you say that Cust is bad as a DH because he’s an OBP guy, that’s pretty much what you’re saying.

i also never said i thought Cust was a roider. just that there is plenty of evidence – direct and circumstantial – linking him to roids, at a time when lots of players were doing roids. no reasonable GM would just ignore that information.

This is weasely to me (NOT SAYING YOU ARE WEASELY, just that this argument is.) You distance yourself from the irrational personal attack on Cust, at the same time as you MAKE the irrational personal attack on Cust, through a thin veil of impartiality. If you don’t think he was a roider, then why would no reasonable GM just ignore the accusation? If the evidence is so nonexistent, and if the claim is so obviously specious, why should any GM pay it heed?

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Dec 10, 2010 2:14 PM PST up reply actions  

re

i didn’t say i don’t like cust because of how much he walks. i said that the fact that much of his offensive value is a result of those walks causes him to look better on paper than he actually is. this all gets back to the point that his situational ineptitude (which is a seemingly necessary consequence of his offensive profile) is not accounted for by wOBA, et al. it also relates to my suspicion that he cant hit good pitching, and goes to the question of whether he is the right fit for the a’s as currently constructed (i.e. a pitching a defense team that needs to be able to convert situational opportunities to scratch out runs).

as to your barton comparison, i a) dont believe cust has the ability to get base hits at anywhere near the same rate barton does (cust is a .250 hitter, his 2010 BABIP inflated season aside), b) because barton does not K nearly as often, don’t have the same situational hitting concerns that i have with cust, and c) hold cust to a different standard because barton picks up 1.5 wins over cust on defense (5 for positional adjustment, 10 for barton’s plus defense). apples and oranges.

why does it matter who billy beane “irrationally hates,” you ask? well, he’s the boss. would you hire someone you hated, even irrationally, if you could get a comparable employee that you didn’t hate for a similar cost instead? no. if the relationship is truly fractured, there is value gained by ridding the clubhouse of that tension. the amount of that value is debatable, but its presence creates a risk that needs to be factored into a discussion of cust’s value to the a’s.

i never said cust is a bad DH. as ive said twice now, i think hes a fine player. i also never said my “problem” with cust is that he is an OBP guy. all i did was provide a list of reasons i think matsui will provide comparable performance at a comparable price.

there’s so much wrong with your last paragraph its hard to know where to begin. first, its not “irrational” to think cust might have done roids – as i said above, theres plenty of direct and circumstantial evidence that he did. second, its not a personal attack. whether or not jack cust did steroids has no bearing on how i view him as a person. by all accounts he’s a good guy. third, how is it “weasley” to consider possibilities when conducting a valuation? say i’m considering buying stock in a clothing company. i think there’s a 17% chance that rumors about the company using child labor are true and will result in massive litigation which will decimate the stock price. since I believe there’s an 83% chance that theyre actually just rumors, should i ignore them as i calculate the price im willing to pay for the stock? no. not how valuation works.

ill try not to take offense at your “weasley” comment. just note the irony in you splitting hairs as you call me out for splitting hairs…

by NRC on Dec 10, 2010 4:56 PM PST up reply actions  

There's still a problem of bringing a fundamentally unmeasurable thing like "situational hitting" into the conversation

wOBA usees weighted values for events. It doesn’t overvalue a walk; it doesn’t undervalue a walk. What it does is say that only one player can be held responsible for what that player does, and that’s that player. Jack Cust should not be considered a bad hitter because he doesn’t foolishly, weirdly, unwisely (and in most cases, impossibly) change his approach for high-pressure situations. If anything his stoicism under fire is likely to make him MORE of a clutch hitter.

why does it matter who billy beane "irrationally hates," you ask?

Billy needs to be more of an adult than just randomly hating a guy.

all i did was provide a list of reasons i think matsui will provide comparable performance at a comparable price.

All you’ve done is slag Cust while trying to pretend it isn’t what you’re doing.

theres plenty of direct and circumstantial evidence that he did.

If there was direct evidence, I think we’d have heard about by now.

third, how is it "weasley" to consider possibilities when conducting a valuation?

What’s weasely is to say, “Hey, I’m not saying he committed a crime, I’m just saying, you know, some people think that, so, you know.” It’s not unlike what certain members of the media have done to fan the flames of a certain documentation-related accusation regarding a certain major national politician.

just note the irony in you splitting hairs as you call me out for splitting hairs…

Am I calling you out for splitting hairs?

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Dec 11, 2010 12:09 PM PST up reply actions  

For someone who demands evidence for other things,

you sure are quick to jump to conclusions about Billy Beane:

Billy needs to be more of an adult than just randomly hating a guy.

First of all, we don’t know that Beane hates Cust at all. We’ve heard some anonymous second-hand reports that there’s a personal animosity between them.

Even if that’s true, it’s a far cry from saying Beane “randomly hates him”. Maybe Beane does have a personal grudge against him but it’s something non-random that they haven’t chose to publicize. Besides that, the second-hand reports I saw only said that there is a bad relationship between them, not that it’s all coming from Beane. Maybe Jack Cust randomly (or not so randomly) hates Billy Beane.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Dec 11, 2010 10:42 PM PST up reply actions  

-
First of all, we don’t know that Beane hates Cust at all.

Either he hates Cust or he hates winning. Either way, I’m sick of the guy.

Maybe Beane does have a personal grudge against him but it’s something non-random that they haven’t chose to publicize.

I don’t care if Cust insulted his mother, the team comes first, The End.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Dec 12, 2010 12:32 AM PST up reply actions  

What if it turns out that Cust is bad for the team

in a way that you aren’t aware of yet? In that case would you change your mind?

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Dec 12, 2010 10:46 AM PST up reply actions  

When did the A's win with Cust?
Either he hates Cust or he hates winning.

"We don't see things as they are, we see things as we are."
~ Anais Nin

by UncleLeo on Dec 12, 2010 5:55 PM PST up reply actions  

I see you as having twisted some of HRC's points to make your point, which is also a 'weasely' way to win an argument

Me, personally, I was always pretty fond of the Weasely’s.

Nowhere in his post does HRC claim that Cust is ‘an awful hitter’. What he does say, rather mildly, is that taking walks and/or striking out with men on base in front of you and poor hitters behind you doesn’t get runners home often enough, or as often as someone who puts the ball in play (specifically in the case of runners on third with less than 2 outs in his post).

To tar him with having said Cust was an ‘awful hitter’ therefore, and to further bring the idea that he only values power hitters into the exchange is also not supported by what he said. He says he values contact in the specific situation of runners on 3rd, less than 2 outs. He says Matsui is better because he gets hits more often. (the truth is their BA are nearly identical for 2010. He is right that Matsui makes contact- puts the ball in play- way more often than Cust).

He goes on to say that Jack Cust would be more useful in a lineup that had some decent hitters to follow him. I think that’s absolutely true. The A’s lineup more or less consisted for much of the year of a leadoff guy with low OBP (whether Davis or Crisp) but with a lot of speed, followed by a pretty ideal #2 hitter in Barton (high OBP, few GIDPs), followed by another very good #2 hitter in Cust, followed by 2 or 3 #6 or 7 hitters (a bit of pop, low OBP, lots of GIDP) in Kouz, Zook, a random Matt, then another random Matt, followed by an OK #6 hitter, Ellis, followed by a good #9 Pennington.

None of this is Cust’s fault. The fault is Beane’s for constructing a lineup that can’t take advantage of Cust and Barton’s high OBP to score a lot of runs (or even an average number of runs).

However, you have to recognize about Jack’s unusual hitting style that his strengths will lead inevitably to some of the weaknesses in his spot in the lineup: 1) If you walk 16% of the time, and strikeout 30% of the time, you can only make contact 54% of the time. The result of this is that in his career, Jack Cust has advanced runners, scored runners from 3rd with less than 2 outs and advanced runners on 2nd (0 outs, baseball-ref doesn’t cover all the possibilities) at a rate below the average MLB’er, even while having higher OBP and SLG in those situations than with bases empty. Hitters who strike out at a lower-than-average rate and walk at an above-average rate, such as Matsui, also tend to advance runners, score runners from 3rd with less than 2 outs etc. at a higher than MLB average rate.

My opinion is that Billy did not cut Jack for irrational reasons. (He tendered CoJack for irrational reasons, and maybe signed Sweeney irrationally also). He let Jack go because, as a pretty much no-field guy, he could replace Jack more easily with a player who does all those things mentioned in the preceding paragraph at a better clip than Jack does more easily than he could have if Jack could field a position well.

"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins

by justANotherAsFan on Dec 10, 2010 4:58 PM PST up reply actions  

All you're doing here is saying that none of this was Jack's fault, but that it's still an OK reason to cut him.

Billy constructs a bad lineup, Bobo puts him in the wrong lineup slot, and Jack gets cut?

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Dec 11, 2010 12:10 PM PST up reply actions  

I will address the "weasely" roids argument directly.

Last year when people were talking about the A’s maybe signing Barry Bonds, I was very much against that because I didn’t want anything that would further associate the Oakland A’s with a steroid reputation. In that case what mattered to me was not so much that Bonds did do roids (which I don’t really care about that much) but rather that people hear his name and think steroids. The A’s team already has a pretty strong connection with steroids in the public consciousness, and I want to make less of that, not more.

The same logic applies to a lesser extent with Cust. He isn’t a big-name roid user, but he does get named in the Mitchell report. I happen to believe that he really did use roids, but I don’t think that’s a big deal because I think a lot of guys used roids, including many more who didn’t get mentioned in the report.

But like it or not, Cust’s name is there and others guys’ names aren’t, so he contributes slightly to the association of the A’s with steroids. I realize that’s not really fair to him, but too bad, it’s still true. To me, this is an argument against him. It’s not the only thing, and I wouldn’t advocate dumping him for that alone, but I do think when you line up the pros and cons, it contributes to the case against Cust.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Dec 10, 2010 8:13 PM PST up reply actions  

This Mitchell Report stuff is going to go down in history the way the Hollywood blacklist did.

Anyone could slander anyone with that thing. There’s no evidence in that report against Cust, just some guy who said something.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Dec 11, 2010 12:11 PM PST up reply actions  

What do you think?

Do you think Cust didn’t use steroids?

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Dec 11, 2010 10:37 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah, I don't choose to believe allegations of wrongdoing until there's evidence to support that conclusion.

Now keep in mind, this is separate from whether I like him. I believe Mark McGwire did steroids; I also believe Mark McGwire is the greatest power hitter of all time.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Dec 12, 2010 12:33 AM PST up reply actions  

iglew, I think it's important to note that while yes,

many many players were using, the link to Cust is laughably “much ado about nothing” — basically that he had a locker next to a user, that he said he could get steroids if he wanted them, etc. Nothing has linked him to using, any more than any other player you don’t suspect at all.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 12, 2010 9:20 AM PST up reply actions  

That's incorrect.

It’s not evidence I’d use in a court of law or anything, but people whose judgment and contacts I have learned to trust have said as much, and forcefully. In particular, there’s your fellow blogfather Jeff. (Does that make him our blog-uncle?) This is exactly like when you say you’ve heard things but can’t give sources. We can all choose how much credit we personally want to give to the second-hand hearsay. Me, I think there’s something to it.

Like I said before, I don’t think it’s a reason to hate the guy. A lot of guys did steroids. Their decision was understandable and not evil, and I think it would be good for people to be less preachy about it. At the same time, I don’t like the outraged denial act either.

I disliked Cust’s initial Clemens-like reaction a lot. Now that he’s modified that I’d like to see it all be swept up with the past.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Dec 12, 2010 10:52 AM PST up reply actions  

Sorry - if there's evidence, however "can't name the source,"

then I stand corrected. I should say that I’ve never heard anything more than “Oh come on!” kinds of links to Cust and steroids — things like “locker proximity to users.”

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 12, 2010 10:58 AM PST up reply actions  

He won't bring it up again now,

partly because he rightly considers it all in the past now, and partly because now that he’s an SBN overlord he’s not allowed to speak openly, but some of the discussion is still there on LL.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Dec 12, 2010 1:48 PM PST up reply actions  

Iglew youre wrong on this one. Cust got screwed by the Mitchel report.

Larry Bigby said he talked about steriods with Cust once. Thats it.

Taurus Apr 20-May 20
Honey or vinegar? That’s kind of the universal decision we have to make all the time, every day. Are we going to get what we want by being nice or being a dick? And you know what, Taurus? Every situation is different, there’s no one way to do things. Know what else? Honey and vinegar go together in a nice salad dressing.

by designatedforassignment on Dec 12, 2010 1:23 PM PST up reply actions  

To whatever extent this is true

(and it seems a bit less true as the thread has aged), then it will have proved something about whether the guys in the other thread really are trolls.

If the hypothesis is, “they’re only making these comments to annoy us; if it weren’t for that, they wouldn’t bother,” well, let’s find out.

I’m all about the socratic method.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Dec 9, 2010 4:03 PM PST up reply actions  

+1

Every man for himself...

by MMunoz33 on Dec 9, 2010 9:38 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't hate Cust. For that matter, I don't hate anyone.

However, my concern is that BB has so far missed all oportunities to replace Jack, nor has he addressed what he himself sees as our “lack of power.” I fear that after the last DH/ Power hitter has gone elsewhere, BB will trade Carter and Cahill to the M’s for Cust. Jack wasn’t the A’s problem, but that said, the problems isn’t getting fixed either( so far).

by Tutu-late on Dec 9, 2010 10:55 AM PST reply actions  

Man I'm bad at replying lately

Meant in response to Tutu-late, above.

rebuildingseason.blogspot.com

by Rebuilding Season on Dec 9, 2010 10:59 AM PST up reply actions  

Is that the same "zero chance" of re-signing him last year?

My point was that without a viable option, Cust did fill the DH/ role well. The FA options for DH are dwindling quickly.

by Tutu-late on Dec 9, 2010 11:02 AM PST up reply actions  

Cust is a great player; I am very sad he is not an A.

That said, part of the reason Cust is so valuable is because he’s cheaper to pay for than the other free agent options. If the cost of Cust is “Our best power hitting prospect and our #2 starter,” rather than 2.5 million, then he loses a significant amount of value. We could get much more of a haul for Carter/Cahill for Cust.

rebuildingseason.blogspot.com

by Rebuilding Season on Dec 9, 2010 11:04 AM PST up reply actions  

Cust was the best offensive player on an awful offense.

Big fish, little pond as my mom used to tell me. I wish him well and hope our offense gets a whole lot better.

JJ Martin
The best way to catch a knuckleball is to wait until the ball stops rolling and then pick it up. ~Bob Uecker

by JJ Martin on Dec 9, 2010 11:06 AM PST reply actions  

Medium-sized fish, kiddie pool

Fantasy Sports Columnist for Big Cat Country

Follow me on Twitter if you feel like it.

Formerly Gallagher's Watermelons and Player To Be Named Later

by CaliforniaJag on Dec 9, 2010 3:44 PM PST up reply actions  

Carter and Cahill was a joke.

If we can’t sign someone to replace Jack, Then losing him is a mistake, whether we like him or not. As our roster now stands, we are weaker without him. No?

by Tutu-late on Dec 9, 2010 11:07 AM PST reply actions  

This interface is a joke

I figured it was a joke, but every now and then somebody presents similar offers and they’re serious. That said, I think there are still a lot of DH options out there; Thome, Matsui, Manny, Vlad, etc. If we can’t nail one of them, then Carter isn’t the worst option in the history of the world.

rebuildingseason.blogspot.com

by Rebuilding Season on Dec 9, 2010 11:15 AM PST up reply actions  

I like Carter as a DH option.

By allowing Cust to go, however, the DH position has become a concern. I wish BB had signed someone BEFORE losing Jack. Kind of like having both Kouz and E5 while Beltre’s offer was still on the table.

by Tutu-late on Dec 9, 2010 11:30 AM PST up reply actions  

I really liked Cust, and wish he was DHing this season for us.=

And I loved his eye and occasional long ball, although that seemed to be slipping last year. He, was of course, our best hitter last season about any way you want to look at it.

But, he was about the last guy I wanted at the plate in a crucial late game situation. Maybe, the stats said he was the same in 7-9th innings or with RISP, of whatever situation you want to look at. But, the guy just looked like a backwards K strolling up to the plate against a really tough reliever.

He was a hard player for me to gain appreciation for watching each at bat, but was a great player to look at the boxscore of a game I didn’t get to watch and think, “Oh, Cust had a good game, 1-2 2 BB and a run.”

by Emmett89 on Dec 9, 2010 11:47 AM PST reply actions  

yes exactly

unwatchable but statistically sound.

by Billy Frijoles on Dec 9, 2010 12:03 PM PST up reply actions  

thanks for this thread

I hate seeing Jack Cust trying to play baseball and would wish for Matsui just so I can see someone ELSE fail as our DH.

Kerwin Danley is a horrible umpire. So is C.B. Bucknor.

by Cretgren on Dec 9, 2010 12:31 PM PST reply actions  

Maybe this will drive stat boys crazy

But I feel like Cust was one of those players you really had to analyze without the stats. Walks are great, sure, but as a DH in the middle of the lineup, he needed to drive runners in and look to be a hitter.

I appreciate the stats, I understand why WAR is valuable and all that stuff. I agree that it’s best to evaluate a lot of players using stats. But I think Cust is one of the few where stats make him seem better than he actually was.

With Cust at the plate and runners on, did you ever feel confident he’d bring them in? I didn’t. It didn’t seem like he was looking to hit first, and he let pitchers nibble on the outside of the zone and get called third strikes on him all the time. He wanted to get a superstar’s strike zone without actually being a superstar. It’s like a rookie in the NBA complaining about having fouls called on him that wouldn’t be called on Kobe or LeBron – it’s because you’re NOT KOBE OR LEBRON, KID. When he actually did swing, he struck out swinging a lot as well. To call his at-bats frustrating is a gross understatement.

It did seem like pitchers knew how to get him out with runners on, and he didn’t produce in key situations. I don’t think you can have that kind of player at DH, and he’s certainly too much of a liability to have in the field.

Farewell, Jack Kust. I will watch with great interest at what you do in Seattle, but am not that sad to see you go.

Often wrong but never in doubt

"The whole thing was a piece of theatre. Billy had told Art how and where to stand during a game so that the players would... take strength from his countenance, because when Art sat on the bench... he looked like a prisoner of war."
-Moneyball

by darooster on Dec 9, 2010 12:53 PM PST reply actions   4 recs

Not that such situational hitting really matters in my eyes, but just for fun here are a couple of Jack Cust career stats:

 Bases Empty .243 .373 .445 .818
 Runners On .249 .384 .461 .844
 RISP .249 .407 .439 .846

via Yahoo

He was better with Runners on, even better with RISP.

rebuildingseason.blogspot.com

by Rebuilding Season on Dec 9, 2010 1:09 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah, but those stats sort of prove my point on him only trying to draw walks

His OBP went up with runners on and higher with RISP. The average was still poor. Hitting with runners on base is one of the few situations where a high batting average is very important. You gotta try to drive runs in, not just leave it for the next guy every time.

Often wrong but never in doubt

"The whole thing was a piece of theatre. Billy had told Art how and where to stand during a game so that the players would... take strength from his countenance, because when Art sat on the bench... he looked like a prisoner of war."
-Moneyball

by darooster on Dec 9, 2010 6:45 PM PST up reply actions  

He didn't "try" to draw walks

He “tried” to not make an out. If that means not swinging at pitches out of the zone, so be it. Swinging at pitches out of the zone is almost always worse than not swinging at them.

"Some field has fences, and sometime, the field cant hold a player, but most of the time, a field cant hold Domingo"

www.domingobeisbol.com/Domingo/Home.html

by hero66 on Dec 9, 2010 7:45 PM PST up reply actions  

It's not as if his OBP went up but his average went down.

All he did was take walks in the place of outs. To reiterate: With RISP, he is the same player, except he makes less outs. He gets the same amount of hits basically as when there is nobody on, its just that he gets walks instead of making an out 7% more often.

rebuildingseason.blogspot.com

by Rebuilding Season on Dec 10, 2010 12:33 AM PST up reply actions  

here are some more stats, Jack Cust vs. Hideki Matsui

I’m going to start this by saying I really like Jack Cust, as a player, as a person, I like that he looks a bit like Babe Ruth. But I don’t think he was dumped by Billy Beane because he didn’t get along with him. I think BB dumped him because Jack’s skills don’t exactly line up with the A’s needs.
that said, here goes:
All of these stats are from Baseball-refferrence.com

% of balls put into play plus HR’s, Jack Cust, 2010: 53%
% as above, Jack Cust, career: 50.4%
% as above, MLB average hitter: 72.7%
% as above, Hideki Matsui, 2010: 70%
% as above, H Matsui, career: 74.7%

% walks, Jack Cust, 2010: 16%
% walks, Jack Cust, career: 17.3%
% walks, MLB average hitter: 8.6%
% walks, H Matsui, 2010: 12.1 %
% walks, H Matsui, career: 11.1%

% K’s, J Cust, 2010: 29.9%
% K’s, J Cust, career: 31.7%
% K’s, MLB average hitter: 17.2%
% K’s, H Matsui, 2010: 17.7%
% K’s, H Matsui, career: 13.3%

K’s looking/all K’s, J Cust, 2010: 35
% as above, J Cust, career: 36%
% as above, MLB average hitter: 26%
% as above, H Matsui, 2010: 15%
% as above, H Matsui, career: 28%

Additional situational outcomes: both hitters are better than MLB averages at not GIDP.

Cust’s 2010 and career numbers for getting players home in those RISP situations you mention are actually below MLB average. Matsui’s are above, both while a Yankee (of course, since the lineup requires pitchers not to be too fine) and also in 2010.

So, if all the above stats tell us anything, it is that the non-stat-head ‘Cust hater’ perception that ‘all he does is walk, strickout looking, or hit homers’ is not completely off target. You can argue that the stats cited above are meaningless, and that only OPS or wOBA really matter in the long run, but you can’t argue with someone who says, ‘*he doesn’t get the runners home*’. He doesn’t, at even an MLB-average clip. He gets on base, yes. He used to hit homers at a fine clip, and no longer does, while his BABIP is fantastic (and, I think this is what happens when a player refuses to hit marginal pitches and only swings at pitches he thinks he can make great contact with).

I think they tell us more. They tell us that Jack Cust is an excellent table-setter. They tell us, I think, that he refuses to swing at pitches, even in the strike zone, that he can’t drive (requires tedious further numbers, but they are there in the pitch count details). But unfortunately, he’s also slow on the bases, thus not an ideal #2 hitter. Besides, the A’s already have a good #2 hitter, who is not as slow, in D Barton. Unfortunately, Jack Cust was consistently followed in the batting order by very low OBP, high GIDP and/or IF hitters like Zook and Kouz. There just wasn’t a good place in the 2010 lineup for Jack Cust. Not his fault.

I think a player like Matsui will actually fit the lineup better than Jack Cust, but the A’s need at least one more ‘big bat’. I think that the Mariners, because their lineup is just as pathetic as the A’s, will find themselves also frustrated with Jack Cust’s very unusual baseball skills. Pity for him he wasn’t picked up by the Yankees.

"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins

by justANotherAsFan on Dec 10, 2010 8:20 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Oh, and by the way, there are stats from Matsui's 2010 that bother me

1) He struck out at the highest rate of his career, 17+%, while at the same time
2) He struck out looking at (by far) the lowest rate of his career: 15% way below his career average.

Combine 1) and 2) and there’s a possibility his bat speed is in sudden decline.
(shudders)

"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins

by justANotherAsFan on Dec 10, 2010 8:33 AM PST up reply actions  

just want to say

these are the most coherent anti-Cust posts I have ever seen on AN. He’s an excellent #2 hitter (short of speed) put into an untenable cleanup role, while the A’s are grossly deficient on 3/4/5 hitters.

kudos for this.

by ojoe on Dec 10, 2010 4:57 PM PST up reply actions  

Thanks. I try to pretend to remain neutral and unbiased while secretly bending Cust's statistics to my evil desire to banish him to bizzaro-land ;)

By which I mean:

I am not anti-Cust. I really like his smile. I really think he is a good #2 hitter. Unfortunately, the A’s need a 3-4-5 hitter or three, and Jack ain’t it…

"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins

by justANotherAsFan on Dec 10, 2010 6:43 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't even need to post

you guys are taking the words right out of my mouth. Rec’d!

by sf drift king on Dec 9, 2010 11:16 PM PST up reply actions  

...
But I feel like Cust was one of those players you really had to analyze without the stats.

This is like saying, “I realize that most murder trials need to be based on evidence, but in this one, I just don’t like the guy, so let’s focus on whether I like him, and not on the evidence.”

Walks are great, sure, but as a DH in the middle of the lineup, he needed to drive runners in and look to be a hitter.

So now it’s his fault that Bob Geren didn’t know how to construct a lineup? Or rather, that Billy Beane didn’t know how to construct a roster?

With Cust at the plate and runners on, did you ever feel confident he’d bring them in?

After I came to understand what real statistics mean, there were only three players that made me feel confident when they came into the box: Coco Crisp, Daric Barton, and Jack Cust. But none of this is relevant. It’s all emotion/superstition stuff.

He wanted to get a superstar’s strike zone without actually being a superstar. It’s like a rookie in the NBA complaining about having fouls called on him that wouldn’t be called on Kobe or LeBron – it’s because you’re NOT KOBE OR LEBRON, KID.

This kind of attitude toward the rules—the idea that “superstars” shouldn’t be subject to them—is a big part of what’s wrong with professional sports, and why an increasing number of people want as much officiating as possible to be done by robots. Jack Cust deserves the same strike zone that Derek Jeter deserves. Baseball does not exist for the pleasure of superstars.

It did seem like pitchers knew how to get him out with runners on

Baseball must seem like a very strange universe to you, if you believe pitchers just let a guy get on base in some situations, but in other situations suddenly grow a brain and figure out how to get him out. Only a handful of pitchers have ever been so grandiose and ingenius in their thinking as to make such methods feasible; their names are Greg Maddux.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Dec 10, 2010 9:48 AM PST up reply actions  

But it's not a murder trial
This is like saying, "I realize that most murder trials need to be based on evidence, but in this one, I just don’t like the guy, so let’s focus on whether I like him, and not on the evidence."

What if it’s trying to set you up your sister on a date? Then “I just don’t like the guy, so let’s focus on whether I like him, and not on the evidence” makes a lot more sense.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Dec 10, 2010 11:17 AM PST up reply actions  

oops bad typo there

Did not mean to imply you are dating your own sister. (I had originally written the metaphor as set you up on a date, but then figured too many male readers couldn’t get past the reverse role identification, so I switched to sister but botched the editing.)

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Dec 10, 2010 11:19 AM PST up reply actions  

Actually, the evidence is totally of the utmost important to me in that situation.

If I don’t have a reason for not liking the guy, I won’t say jack about him. I give him enough rope, and he either hangs himself or he doesn’t. To me, romance should have A LOT MORE evidence-based thinking. A lot more rational, logical, thought-out processing of realities. You only hurt yourself when you refuse to do that in a romance.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Dec 10, 2010 2:16 PM PST up reply actions  

OK, fair enough.

Needless to say, I feel differently. And I say that having tried it both ways: I have been rational about love and irrational about love.

I wish you luck in finding a soulmate who shares your passion for logical, evidence-based romance.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Dec 10, 2010 8:17 PM PST up reply actions  

Romance itself cannot be evidence-based.

But your evaluation of a person should be. If you can’t point to more reasons you should stay with a person than reasons you should leave, then it’s time to leave.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Dec 11, 2010 12:12 PM PST up reply actions  

We've had this discussion before.

I think one of the greatest blessings of a healthy relationship is knowing that the love from your partner is not conditional. If one always knows that the other will leave when the cost-benefit analysis no longer adds up, then one can’t enjoy that security.

I seem to recall you (or someone) felt otherwise.

Again, I’m not trying to convert anyone. Just stating my own opinion and not denying anyone else theirs.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Dec 11, 2010 10:47 PM PST up reply actions  

It was probably me.

But surely there are things that drive you away eventually; I assume you’ve broken up with someone before. So it’s not like you don’t EVER engage in this kind of analysis. Bottom line, if someone is hurting you, you should leave.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Dec 12, 2010 12:34 AM PST up reply actions  

If you are suggesting a consensus opinion

that one should never take it to either extreme, then yes, I will join you in that.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Dec 12, 2010 10:53 AM PST up reply actions  

nope it was me.

Taurus Apr 20-May 20
Honey or vinegar? That’s kind of the universal decision we have to make all the time, every day. Are we going to get what we want by being nice or being a dick? And you know what, Taurus? Every situation is different, there’s no one way to do things. Know what else? Honey and vinegar go together in a nice salad dressing.

by designatedforassignment on Dec 12, 2010 1:25 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, here come the roooooosterrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

AWWWWWW YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAHHHH

YOU KNOW HE AIN’T GONNA DIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII-IIIIIIIIIIIIIII-IIIIIIIIIIII-IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIEEE!

I love green because money be green.

by Joey C. on Dec 10, 2010 2:18 PM PST up reply actions   3 recs

Best thing ever.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Dec 10, 2010 2:19 PM PST up reply actions  

Except for those first miraculous weeks

Cust mostly frustrated me. Wasn’t much too watch him take pitches. And, yes, I like walks. Just never enjoyed watching him play much.

He was fun to root for, though, The career minor leaguer who cam out of nowhere. The three true outcomes. The adventures in the field.

Liked rooting for him, didn’t much look forward to him hitting.

by RLangford on Dec 9, 2010 2:35 PM PST reply actions  

Wasn't much "fun" to watch him take pitches

Wish there were an editing function. Maybe I should just pause and edit.

Oh, and “came out of nowhere.”

by RLangford on Dec 9, 2010 2:37 PM PST up reply actions  

Attention Cust Haters! Don't post here, it's a trap!

You will be earmarked for elimination, collected by roving AN collection teams and disposed of in a manner in which I cannot speak!

I have abandonment issues. Thanks Lew.

by OptimistPrime on Dec 9, 2010 2:50 PM PST reply actions  

more gruel please sir

I have abandonment issues. Thanks Lew.

by OptimistPrime on Dec 9, 2010 2:51 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Fine, but you get the gruel reserved for rabble rousers.

(Spoiler alert: It has rabble in it.)

rebuildingseason.blogspot.com

by Rebuilding Season on Dec 9, 2010 2:55 PM PST up reply actions  

I prefer robble robble

Sincerely, The Hamburglar

Nobody expects some kind of obscure Monty Python allusion.

by EddieVegas_NRAF on Dec 9, 2010 3:33 PM PST up reply actions  

FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

Zooey Deschanel!

Cluck 'em all and let the Chick sort 'em out - DMOAS

You're worried that you'll come off as nerdy as frack? On AN? That’s like being ashamed of your alcohol use at a meth convention. - danmerqury

by ChickenStanley on Dec 9, 2010 3:38 PM PST up reply actions  

-

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Dec 10, 2010 9:54 AM PST up reply actions  

My hope

Is that with Cust gone, the constant arguing over petty nonsense will stop. Jack Cust wasn’t a player. He was a symbol. If you like Jack Cust, you’re part of the smart gang. If you don’t like Jack Cust, you’re part of the dumb gang. Both gangs must fight at all opportunities.

Looking forward to living in an AN world that isn’t so black and white.

by SeanR on Dec 9, 2010 6:19 PM PST reply actions   2 recs

Seriously.

The only thing dumber than thinking Jack Cust is a bad hitter is trying for the 50th time to angrily explain why he’s good to people who are not open to hearing it. That’s moronic, and I’ll be glad if I never see another angry defense of Jack Cust’s hitting ability.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 9, 2010 6:23 PM PST up reply actions  

This argument will exist after Jack Cust is gone

There will always be people that polarize this argument. Perhaps it isn’t Cust; but the shadow of cust will remain, he will still be talked about, and people will still have their opinions.

rebuildingseason.blogspot.com

by Rebuilding Season on Dec 10, 2010 12:35 AM PST up reply actions  

Why are people still so blatantly ignoring what Iglew asked for in the OP?
Please do not come in here and turn this into a stats-vs-eyes argument. Just let us have our little room in which to vent our illogic and stupidity. Thanks.

Often wrong but never in doubt

"The whole thing was a piece of theatre. Billy had told Art how and where to stand during a game so that the players would... take strength from his countenance, because when Art sat on the bench... he looked like a prisoner of war."
-Moneyball

by darooster on Dec 9, 2010 6:47 PM PST reply actions  

Psst

its because we are dumb

Zooey Deschanel!

Cluck 'em all and let the Chick sort 'em out - DMOAS

You're worried that you'll come off as nerdy as frack? On AN? That’s like being ashamed of your alcohol use at a meth convention. - danmerqury

by ChickenStanley on Dec 9, 2010 7:21 PM PST up reply actions  

heh

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes

by Future Ed on Dec 10, 2010 1:29 PM PST up reply actions  

There are more than two sides to AN

You’ve got the AXIS OF ARGUMENT (aka THE DEBATE TEAM)

Then there’s the CT THREAD CONTINGENT (split up into Squirrel and Sock Puppet subgroups)

Then there’s Iglew. He’s his own side.

Don’t forget the OLD SCHOOL group, whom aren’t yet ready to give up the old stats. Yet, the cool gossip nuggets almost always come from this group (Dallas Braden Stockton Dance Scene Reports come to mind!)

I try not to engage with the Axis of Argument on anything other than a joking level, because at heart, I’m a Berzerker. Arguing with people makes me mad, and when I’m mad, it’s hard to supress the desire to punish and/or destroy, so it’s best not to get mad in the first place.

"Burt Reynolds witnessed the conception of his own dad, and frankly, that's what's wrong with him."- TPDMTD!

by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 12, 2010 10:41 AM PST up reply actions  

Wait, did you just label me as TIto?

Because that’s going to get me in trouble with elcroata.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Dec 12, 2010 10:56 AM PST up reply actions  

No, your wrong capitalization of his name will

But, I don’t know, from where I stand, he might have called you Nehru or Nasser, just as well.

Well played, by the way.

by elcroata on Dec 12, 2010 1:07 PM PST up reply actions  

Are you saying it should be tito?

or it should be El Croata?

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Dec 12, 2010 1:16 PM PST up reply actions  

Oh, look at that.

I didn’t even notice. Stupid Arial.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Dec 12, 2010 1:35 PM PST up reply actions  

Don't tay me, Broz!

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Dec 12, 2010 1:36 PM PST up reply actions  

Don't forget about the GOG Side.

Where we like learning about and using advanced metrics, but are also forced to guess results over a very small sample size of 3-4 games. That means we have to guess for luck, bad decisions, streaks. A great mix of evidence and coin tossing.

I hope everyone comes over to this Side, come April, as all are welcome.

Your poem here.

by paris7 on Dec 12, 2010 1:47 PM PST up reply actions  

Yup.

I need to get started on the interface. De-clunk it a bit.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Dec 12, 2010 9:21 PM PST up reply actions  

Heres my take on the situation and why I'm glad to see Cust go...

I noticed that Cust (and Barton, to some extent) would have games that go like this:

First few at bats: run the count to 3-2 or so, and with their great eye take a borderline pitch just off the outside corner. Ball Four!!!!

At bat late in the game with the A’s a run or two down with a couple runners on base: run the count 3-2, take same pitch just off the outside corner…..Steeerike threee!!! Then the obligatory looks at the umpire before strolling back to the dugout or watching as the opposing team celebrates….

Maybe its the approach I’m having issues with…Cust has a ton of power to left field, why not take that borderline outside pitch and drive it to the left field gap or over the fence? why mess around and try to get a walk?? Be more aggressive instead of just standing there taking pitches!!!!

by mikeprooo on Dec 9, 2010 7:26 PM PST reply actions   1 recs

Or to put it another way,

that approach just doesn’t serve this team like it would serve a team with better 4-5 hitters.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 9, 2010 7:40 PM PST up reply actions  

yes, yes,

and yes!!!

Every man for himself...

by MMunoz33 on Dec 9, 2010 9:42 PM PST up reply actions  

Now you're blaming Cust and Barton FOR THE UMPIRE BEING CRAPPY.

If that pitch is ball four in the first inning, it is ball four in the ninth inning, and the fact that it never is when you’re the A’s is more than enough reason to do away with human umpires behind the plate.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Dec 10, 2010 9:56 AM PST up reply actions  

Sh** is sh**. Umpiring is Umpiring.

It is what it is. You call it “crappy”; maybe it is. It is surely not applied in the latter inning like the early innings; it is surely not applied the same to the NYY at home as opposed to the A’ on the road (or at home for that matter); it is first and foremost a HUMAN decision. But it is what it is. It is part of the game ….and I agree 1000% with Mikeprooo:

“At bat late in the game with the A’s a run or two down with a couple runners on base: run the count 3-2, take same pitch just off the outside corner…..Steeerike threee!!! Then the obligatory looks at the umpire before strolling back to the dugout or watching as the opposing team celebrates….”

I got tired, so tired of Jack’s show.

by robertmelvin on Dec 10, 2010 4:32 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Well when you get a speeding ticket for doing 5 mph under the speed limit,

I trust you’ll be just fine with the “human element” there, too.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Dec 11, 2010 12:13 PM PST up reply actions  

i cant believe i got banned from AN after 2 posts,,,,,, guess theres only room for the metric stats approach rather than the eyes/heart/guts/passion evaluation of things. kind of ridiculous, what a bunch of geeks.

funny that its been pretty much established that matsui is just about as good as cust if not better and will cost pretty much the same and we wont have to deal with arb with cust later. not sure why everyone defended him so honorably. A dh should have a threatening role and i never saw cust have that effect on any team. there must have also been something happening in the club house with his attitude that made it a done deal to non tender him.

beltre, thome/manny or bust go a’s

by ihatecrusteeznuts on Dec 10, 2010 12:28 AM PST reply actions   2 recs

I can't believe you're back.

"We've come a long way, and I'm not talking about Virginia Slims, either." - Art Howe

by EastCoastA on Dec 10, 2010 2:08 PM PST up reply actions  

Glad to hear it. Thanks.

"We've come a long way, and I'm not talking about Virginia Slims, either." - Art Howe

by EastCoastA on Dec 11, 2010 8:44 AM PST up reply actions  

Wrong Guy For The Job

I don’t dislike Jack Cust, he just never felt like the right guy for the job. Part his fault, part Sideshow Bob’s fault, probably mostly Billy’s fault.

I’ve always appreciated the A’s approach. Taking pitches, working situations, getting starters out by the 6th is a good thing.

My thing with Cust has always been though, put simply I guess, he’s not Giambi or Tejada. Working counts, taking pitches etc. is swell at the top and very bottom of your lineup, but not at the heart of it. Your middle guys should be looking for “their pitch” so they can drive in the run. For me OBP means nothing for your 3-6 guys, there job should be knocking in the runs. He’d be a fine #2 hitter in a lineup I think, but when you’re placed in a position to drive in runs, that’s your job and just about your only job.

Constantly setting the table, only to have no one clear it is cause for great frustration. Jack didn’t temper his approach to his role, and this last year seemed almost on a mission not to.

by AsFan72 on Dec 10, 2010 9:04 AM PST reply actions   1 recs

Not entirely, but he does have to shoulder some responsibility.

As mentioned in my previous post, the bulk of the blame falls at Billy’s feet for not having anything around him and to Bob for placing him in that spot in the lineup, but I think Jack has to shoulder some responsibility for changing his approach to one non-condusive to the middle of the lineup.

by AsFan72 on Dec 10, 2010 12:11 PM PST up reply actions  

Two points that rarely... if ever... get brought up regarding Cust...

1) No, he is not an ideal middle-of-the-order hitter, but to be fair, the rest of the lineup was so ineffective they really had no other choice. It was either him or leave it blank.

2) He says he changed his approach in 2010 and hit less HRs as a result. If so, it didn’t help his cause. His judgment to do so was faulty and a huge fail.

Billy Beane... What have you done for me lately?

by UncleLeo on Dec 10, 2010 10:20 AM PST up reply actions  

Totally OT, but thank you closing the Luke Scott thread.

It was getting a little too far over the line. I know that I helped contribute to that atmosphere, so I have no illusion of being blameless. I did let some things go in an attempt to simply let them die out, but I also furthered the negative atmosphere in a few others more than I should have. It’s probably for the best that it is closed. Anything relevant to the player himself being acquired by the A’s (or not) had pretty much been said, so it did serve its purpose in that regard..

Billy Beane... What have you done for me lately?

by UncleLeo on Dec 10, 2010 11:04 AM PST reply actions  

The Jack Cust Problem

This is my first AN post, but I have been reading this site for years. I am the biggest A’s fan I know, I’ve loved newspaper box scores for as long as I can read. Like all of us I’ve ready Moneyball, and like most of us I follow the math nerds and am consistently impressed and appreciative of their contributions to our understanding of baseball.

I don’t like Jack Cust.

I don’t like the strikeouts, I don’t trust his babip this year, he’s a horrible fielder, and I’m suspicious of his lack of power.

For all those critiques I have I know there are a dozen more advanced statistics that show that Cust is as valuable or more than any other available DH.

I admit that I am not a statistician or a mathematician- there are plenty of stats that I’ve never heard of or that I don’t understand. In a baseball conversation that relies completely on statistical analysis I am very quickly outclassed.

And thus this is what I call the Jack Cust problem. I still think Jack Cust is bad- at least relatively so. I would rather have Matsui, or Guerrero, or Magglio or even Manny next year than Cust- at least for relatively the same cost or even slightly more. I am reluctant to believe the math. I don’t trust the numbers. Why? My reluctance to rely on the statistics that say Cust is good is because the field of advanced statistics is brand new.

I am suspicious of those who have statistical hubris and are willing to discount opposing opinions on complicated baseball issues of which “Is Jack Cust good?” I consider to be one of them. The reason is because 10 years ago the smartest kids in the class were using different methods to come up with different answers and 10 years from know the math will no doubt change again. Advanced statistical analysis with regards to baseball is a relatively new field and it is constantly in flux- I have no doubt that we will get smarter and our math will get better. No one should ever have supreme ultimate confidence in any of their analysis, instead of saying “Cust is obviously great because of numbers x, y, and z…” I think the argument should be “The current best numbers show that Cust is good because…”. The problem is that lots of people- the A’s front office included, think they A’s are better off with out Cust? Why? Why in the face of so much data do we hate Cust? Are we all irrational? Are we stupid? Or is it possible that perhaps there is something about Cust that makes him bad that is not captured in the stats? I’m not sure the answer. But I think in the face of such a complicated topic when there are differing opinions from amongst a number of smart people that perhaps the dissenters need not be immediately dismissed.

Thanks for this thread, maybe 10 years from now we will have a definitive answer to the Jack Cust problem. I may or may not like him then.

by Max Hartman on Dec 10, 2010 2:40 PM PST reply actions   3 recs

Great first post Max Hartman

I would like to hear you expand on why you don’t like strikeouts. I’m not trying to suggest that you’re wrong to not like them, I’m just curious.

In regards to today’s stats stating a certain player sucks or is great; I think a lot of the frustration from the stat-nerds (myself included) is not that they know that their perception of a player’s value is right and the non-stat-nerds is wrong, but rather the frustration lies in arguments that lack any support when questioned. Obviously, this is not always the case.

"Juuuuust a bit outside" - Harry Doyle

by ArunisArun on Dec 10, 2010 3:21 PM PST up reply actions  

Thanks!

(oops, I meant to put this here…)
My feelings towards the strikeout have changed over time. When I first began following the game- in my youth in the late 80’s I was under the impression that a strikeout was the worst kind of out you could make. I found it a revolutionary concept to think of a strikeout as "just another out" and my distaste of them was tempered. In the last few years I have come to like them less- particularly in a lineup like Oakland has had the last few years and are likely to have next year. I like that at bats that end in a strikeout are apt to take at least 3 pitches and add to a pitchers count and I like that strikeouts aren’t double plays. I don’t like that a strikeout- barring a wild pitch or something weird- cant score a runner from third or advance a runner into scoring position or get you on base via an error. I think in a relatively low powered offense like the A’s are likely to have again next year your offense needs to rely on contact and some speed in order to produce runs. If I could count on Cust to hit homeruns again sure I think his power benefits would out weigh the K’s- and of course I would take 9 guys who hit 30 hrs and struck out 100 times in a heartbeat. But I don’t like Cust’s strikeouts at all when considered with the other things he has to offer- his lack of speed that fact that I don’t think he’s going to hit .270 or better next year and especially because I think he’s not likely to improve much on the 14 homeruns and especially especially (thats right 2 especiallys) not on this team.

I think the Angels, pardon me this is AN- Slegna, have done some interesting things the last few years- namely it seems that they almost always over perform on their pythagorean winning percentage. Maybe the Slegna question has already been answered, and maybe it’s due to the brilliance of Mike Scioscia (I call him "Nino" in reference to my least favorite Supreme Court Justice) but it seems to me- and again I don’t have the numbers- it’s because the use speed and contact to maximize the effectiveness of their outs. I think in the right lineups with the right players and the right tools there is something to not striking out.

by Max Hartman on Dec 10, 2010 3:53 PM PST up reply actions  

i don't think that's an easy thing to do. hitting a baseball is a very hard thing to do. having multiple approaches seems an odd way to be better at baseball, especially in higher pressure situations.

this is like the argument that guys play better in contract years. there is no evidence to support the charge, but it gets leveled any way. you can’t just decide to try harder and be better.

the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust

by stm72 on Dec 11, 2010 4:39 PM PST up reply actions  

No, but you can slack a bit in all the other years.

It is generally assumed that things like staying in good shape physically, being well rested and not staying up all night, keeping focused on the game and not spacing out, etc, help one to perform up to one’s talent level. Is this not so? And if it is, is it not conceivable that a player could fall short on one or more of these in a year when he doesn’t care as much?

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Dec 11, 2010 10:51 PM PST up reply actions  

Or cares, but lets his guard down?

That being said, Beltre is not a good candidate for this problem as he is very competitive. I attribute his good year / bad year pattern mostly to chance.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 12, 2010 9:22 AM PST up reply actions  

I agree about Beltre.

I was just disputing the general assertion that the “only good in contract years” argument is always invalid.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Dec 12, 2010 10:57 AM PST up reply actions  

Sure...

but the point is that the math isn’t perfect. I think the Angels have done enough for enough to years at least get credit for defying the numbers in some way- at a certain point it’s not an outlier. I think cutting down on strikeouts might be a part of it.

by Max Hartman on Dec 10, 2010 6:35 PM PST up reply actions  

...
The problem is that lots of people- the A’s front office included, think they A’s are better off with out Cust

The A’s never said that; they believed they were better off not having Cust than having to pay Cust over $4 million or whatever the arbitration award would’ve been. It’s a cost/benefit analysis, and they felt that Cust did not meet the threshold of what they were looking for.

Fantasy Sports Columnist for Big Cat Country

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Formerly Gallagher's Watermelons and Player To Be Named Later

by CaliforniaJag on Dec 10, 2010 4:19 PM PST up reply actions  

They didn't say that but...

… they are probably going to spend more than they would have for Cust on somebody else- and they are doing so by choice. If they thought Cust was as good as Matsui, or Berkman or whomever else they would’ve been happy to have him for half the price. When we are talking about “is Cust good” I think it is obviously relative to the other options, right?

by Max Hartman on Dec 10, 2010 6:32 PM PST up reply actions  

+1 to Max's first post

My feelings on and about Jack Cust:

1. I am very happy he is gone.

2. He was always miss used by Geren, and if he stayed with the A’s, and we all know that Bob will be here for ever, he would have continued to be miss used. I know the argument is that the A’s had no power so had to use Geren in the middle of the order, but at least we don’t have to worry about this Catch 22 anymore.

3. I could almost always tell early in an at bat when Jack was over matched, or just plain confused in the batters box….and most importantly, this happened too often. It was almost like he had an emotional approach to batting that he often could not control. He had power, a natural uppercut, home run swing, but there was something in his mental/emotonal approach that held him back.

4. Same as 1: I am very happy he is gone.

And as I have posted before, and it has been alluded to in this post, he really rubbed BB wrong last year with his public comments on the A’s organization; and we all know that BB has the memory on an elephant….and could not wait to non tender Jack.

by robertmelvin on Dec 10, 2010 3:25 PM PST reply actions  

I forgot to

thank iglew for this forum to say how we feel about Jack’s value to the team without being bombarded with numbers.

by robertmelvin on Dec 10, 2010 3:32 PM PST reply actions  

Thanks!

My feelings towards the strikeout have changed over time. When I first began following the game- in my youth in the late 80’s I was under the impression that a strikeout was the worst kind of out you could make. I found it a revolutionary concept to think of a strikeout as “just another out” and my distaste of them was tempered. In the last few years I have come to like them less- particularly in a lineup like Oakland has had the last few years and are likely to have next year. I like that at bats that end in a strikeout are apt to take at least 3 pitches and add to a pitchers count and I like that strikeouts aren’t double plays. I don’t like that a strikeout- barring a wild pitch or something weird- cant score a runner from third or advance a runner into scoring position or get you on base via an error. I think in a relatively low powered offense like the A’s are likely to have again next year your offense needs to rely on contact and some speed in order to produce runs. If I could count on Cust to hit homeruns again sure I think his power benefits would out weigh the K’s- and of course I would take 9 guys who hit 30 hrs and struck out 100 times in a heartbeat. But I don’t like Cust’s strikeouts at all when considered with the other things he has to offer- his lack of speed that fact that I don’t think he’s going to hit .270 or better next year and especially because I think he’s not likely to improve much on the 14 homeruns and especially especially (thats right 2 especiallys) not on this team.

I think the Angels, pardon me this is AN- Slegna, have done some interesting things the last few years- namely it seems that they almost always over perform on their pythagorean winning percentage. Maybe the Slegna question has already been answered, and maybe it’s due to the brilliance of Mike Scioscia (I call him “Nino” in reference to my least favorite Supreme Court Justice) but it seems to me- and again I don’t have the numbers- it’s because the use speed and contact to maximize the effectiveness of their outs. I think in the right lineups with the right players and the right tools there is something to not striking out.

by Max Hartman on Dec 10, 2010 3:52 PM PST reply actions  

Swinging strikeout by a

slugger where the pitcher just over powers the slugger are part of baseball, an important part.

But Jack with the baes loaded, 3 and 2 count, was too often completely unable to swing at a pitch on the outside part of the plate, or just off the plate. He could not protect the plate. Then he would stare at the umpire and shake his head as he lumbered back to the dugout. He always thought that the umpire had to have more faith in Jack’s eye; as if Jack thought he had a famous eye that everyone knew about.

I am not a Cust hater, but boy am I happy he is gone!!

by robertmelvin on Dec 10, 2010 4:16 PM PST reply actions  

Cust Never More Than A Fringe Talent

I hope Seattle enjoys his ups, because they’ll be a heck of a lot shorter-lived than his downs.

In the Oakland A’s charity poker tournament in 2009, I finished too high to get the prize I wanted (four great box seats) and ended up with a Jack Cust signed ball. Oh, joy.

by muscatel on Dec 11, 2010 5:24 AM PST reply actions  

Speaking of which

I am organizing one today (charity poker tournament). It’s going to be fun as I can only manage about three seconds without having to cough. On a plus side, we don’t give out any prizes whatsoever.

by elcroata on Dec 11, 2010 8:17 AM PST up reply actions  

So I can show up, win nothing, and pick up influenza?

Be there in 10 min!

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 11, 2010 9:05 AM PST up reply actions  

Influenza is reserved for the ones that make it to the final table

Seriously, it was hell, but it was great , too. We raised over 800 Euro.

by elcroata on Dec 11, 2010 4:20 PM PST up reply actions  

And hospitalized three previously healthy children!

Seriously, though, I would LOVE to get an east bay poker, or blackjack, game going. 5-6 guys/gals sitting around scratching their (or each other’s) crotch and blaming the cards for everything? Good times.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 11, 2010 4:55 PM PST up reply actions  

We did ours for the second time

What I do is set a low buy-in (10 Eur) and unlimited re-buys (10 Eur each, too). We also raise blinds slowly in the beginning, so that if someone loses his/her stack, they can re-buy and still get in the midst of it.

We had some specials yesterday, so that the first buy-in gave you a stack of 1,000 chips, while the re-buy gave you 1,500 and a second re-buy 2,000. Also, the first guy to lose his stack and to re-buy himself in the game gets an extra 1,000 chips.

And of course, every time someone would make a hefty raise and the opponent would be wondering whether to call or not, we would all chime in with “C’mon, it’s for the kids!”.

This way we had the majority of the players play for at least couple of hours, we had lots of re-buys and everybody had fun. We had some people driving over 200km to be there, so I wanted to make sure they play for a while.

by elcroata on Dec 12, 2010 4:15 AM PST up reply actions  

Dude that would be a lot of if it was in real money :-P

Taurus Apr 20-May 20
Honey or vinegar? That’s kind of the universal decision we have to make all the time, every day. Are we going to get what we want by being nice or being a dick? And you know what, Taurus? Every situation is different, there’s no one way to do things. Know what else? Honey and vinegar go together in a nice salad dressing.

by designatedforassignment on Dec 11, 2010 8:12 PM PST up reply actions  

Actually, lot of people in Europe share that sentiment

And would prefer their Marks, Francs, Liras or Pesetas to Euro. My parents in law still use Pesetas when they discuss prices of cars or apartments, although it is a) complicated and b) non-existent for about a decade now.

I am totally on Euro bandwagon. I move around a lot and used to have like a dozen tin cans at home with each country’s money – that was a hassle. You would always either run out of money or have too much in the end and have it rot in the named tin can until like 6 years later when you would go to Portugal next.

I am doing two or three skiing events in Switzerland this winter and I already hate how they don’t want to take Euro on the slopes, even for a very favorable exchange rates.

by elcroata on Dec 12, 2010 4:21 AM PST up reply actions  

No I know that was my joke.

I just don’t see how the Euro is practical unless you are going to coordinate the fiscal policies of the countries in addition to the monetary policies.

Taurus Apr 20-May 20
Honey or vinegar? That’s kind of the universal decision we have to make all the time, every day. Are we going to get what we want by being nice or being a dick? And you know what, Taurus? Every situation is different, there’s no one way to do things. Know what else? Honey and vinegar go together in a nice salad dressing.

by designatedforassignment on Dec 12, 2010 1:30 PM PST up reply actions  

Well, it kind of forces them into coordination

whether they like it or not. That’s kind of the whole point. It’s precisely why some people like it and some others don’t.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Dec 12, 2010 3:42 PM PST up reply actions  

Tell Greece that

Taurus Apr 20-May 20
Honey or vinegar? That’s kind of the universal decision we have to make all the time, every day. Are we going to get what we want by being nice or being a dick? And you know what, Taurus? Every situation is different, there’s no one way to do things. Know what else? Honey and vinegar go together in a nice salad dressing.

by designatedforassignment on Dec 12, 2010 4:50 PM PST up reply actions  

My .02

I never hated Jack Cust, but, like many have already mentioned, I never really liked him, either.
I appreciate (and I mean that sincerely) the “education” I’ve received from many of you (mostly Cust-supporters) regarding “why strikeouts aren’t as horrible as many perceive them to be.” I get it. Cust isn’t a bad hitter because he strikes out a lot.
However, nothing ever good came from swinging and missing. Ever. 1,000 times out of a 1,000 swinging and missing the baseball is bad. (Please spare me the ‘Strike 3 – passed ball rarity.) And if you’re the primary power bat in the lineup (which Cust was, like it or not, fair or not), then you need to make contact in order to drive in runs. Cliff Pennington can afford to walk in order to get the next guy up – in order to get more runners on – etc. etc. Jack Cust can’t. Why? Because he’s in the lineup to drive in runs. Period. This isn’t Cust’s fault, necessarily, but he needs to understand his role.
Taking a walk with runners on second and third (or a myriad of other scenarios) doesn’t/didn’t do the A’s a lot of good.
Someone posted above, “Jack Cust didn’t look for walks, he looked to not make outs by swinging at bad pitches …” Bull****. He looked for walks – often taking hittable pitches for strikes when he should’ve been swinging. If the pitch is called a strike, you should’ve swung. Hell, at least it gives your team a chance. Balls in play increase your chances of scoring … nobody scores when the batter swings and misses or watches the pitch. Ever. Doesn’t happen. You have to swing the bat in order to hit the ball in order to score runs. Cust didn’t do that enough.
On a team where he can hit 6th or 7th with power bats in front of him, fine – take your walks. On the A’s? When we desparately needed a power bat – someone to drive in runs consistently — Cust failed. Over and over again.

I needed a team so I wouldn’t turn into one of the eighty million pink hat-wearing Bud Light-drinking mulleted idiots at Fenway.

by Vacafan on Dec 12, 2010 5:17 PM PST reply actions   1 recs

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