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Greatest A's Position Players in Oakland History, Revisited

Warwaewam500

If you wanted to make a list of the greatest baseball players in history, WAR would be a great starting point. It's unbiased, context-free, and easy. And yet, it's lacking something as far as Hall of Fame selections go—people prefer short brilliance to long competence, and with good reason. Jamie Moyer currently stands only seven career WAR below Sandy Koufax, and yet you'd get strange looks if you argued that Moyer should be a first-ballot Hall of Famer. Or possibly an any-ballot Hall of Famer, really.

Enter: WAE, or Wins Above Excellence, a simple modification of WAR. Sean Smith (of CHONE projection fame) came up with the idea about a year ago. All the stat does is move the baseline for WAR up from replacement level (0 WAR) to a level of "excellence" (3 WAR). WAE can never be negative, so it never penalizes anybody below the threshold. Instead, it just gives credit to only those who were able to play at a high level.

Star-divide

Adam Darowski (from Beyond the Box Score) took WAE one step further, by raising the baseline to 6 WAR. He called this WAM, for Wins Above MVP Level. Only the most elite of players can ever accumulate WAM, which helps to differentiate those players from their longer-lasting quieter brethren. And just two days ago, he revisited the stat and created another variant that he called wWAR (Weighted WAR), that simply adds up WAR, WAE, and WAM. In effect, any production above 3 WAR is counted twice, and any production above 6 WAR is counted three times.

The graph at the top of this post tracks the changes in WAR, WAE, and WAM among all Oakland batters since 1968. A few months back, I ran through the list of players by WAR, but this chart adds in WAE and WAM, to get bit of a different perspective.

And just to appreciate the magnitude of Rickey's complete dominance, here's the data in bar graph form (WAR, WAE, WAM, wWAR).

Methodology Note: Like last time, I only counted players who played for the A's in Oakland, not Kansas City or Philadelphia, although I did count the KC years for players who moved with the team to Oakland, like Sal Bando. This time around, I used Fangraphs WAR instead of Rally WAR, so the WAR leaderboard may look a bit different, numerically. Unfortunately, because of the switch, I had to restrict this only to batters, because Fangraphs WAR only goes back to 1980 for pitchers. Just for kicks, Tim Hudson is far and away the winner among the Big Three in all three categories—WAR, WAE, and WAM. In fact, he's the only guy with any WAM at all, with a 6.3 WAR season in 2003.

Comment 95 comments  |  12 recs  | 

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excellent work as always. concise and meaningful. rec'd

your post also brings up a side point. there are too many compilers in the hall of fame. induction should be reserved for the truly elite players and this is as good a measure as any for staging the debate over hall eligible players.

the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust

by stm72 on Dec 28, 2010 8:15 AM PST reply actions  

'Compilers'. I like this term

I agree, in the last couple of decades a whole lot of old guys have seemed to try to hang on until they reach supposed hall-worthy milestones like 3000 hits, 300 wins, 500 homers, etc, while their real claim to fame is actually their longevity, not the number of hits, homers or wins in any particular year…

"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins

by justANotherAsFan on Dec 28, 2010 8:32 AM PST up reply actions  

That's the term that Darowski used.

I like it too. “Compilers” vs. “Peak” guys.

by danmerqury on Dec 28, 2010 11:46 AM PST up reply actions  

I feel like compiling isn't all bad

It’s the Gossage vs. Sutter debate. While sutter had a slight advantage in peak, Gossage did his thing for 7 more years than Sutter did, and having that adds a decent amount to his value. While I get that being mediocre for 50 years isn’t better than being awesome for 20 years, being great for 17 years can be just as good as being slightly-better-than-great for 10 years.

rebuildingseason.blogspot.com

by Rebuilding Season on Dec 28, 2010 12:34 PM PST up reply actions  

You may wish to consider a Catcher Bonus, since it's harder for catchers to compile

counting stats like WAM. The lineup in order of overall quality probably looks something like:

LF Rickey Henderson
RF Reggie Jackson
3B Sal Bando
1B Mark McGwire
SS Bert Campaneris
C Terry Steinbach
CF Dwayne Murphy
2B Mark Ellis

Bench — Jason Giambi, Gene Tenace, Eric Chavez, Jose Canseco

I guess you’re doing pitchers another time…or not.

It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 28, 2010 8:36 AM PST reply actions  

I think he means adding a constant/multiplying by a "Catcher bonus" for Catchers since they don't play as many games due to being a Catcher.

Guys who play 160 games are able to rack up higher counting stats than those who play 140.

rebuildingseason.blogspot.com

by Rebuilding Season on Dec 28, 2010 12:35 PM PST up reply actions  

Yes this is what I mean

It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 28, 2010 12:50 PM PST up reply actions  

But why?

They played less games than someone who played 160. Why should they get an artificial bonus when they didn’t play as much as another guy?

by danmerqury on Dec 28, 2010 4:47 PM PST up reply actions  

Because there really aren't catchers who do.

first off: it was a joke dumbs*** and second, who gives a s*** how long you’ve been there? although I will say that being one of the most rec’d posters on a sports blog for the Oakland A’s is pretty impressive to me. it shows me that you’ve attained a level of loserdom that I thought was only imaginable at a Star Trek convention.

keep taking count of your recs on your spreadsheet and one day I promise it will get you laid (fingers crossed).

until then, F*** OFF. by 2pintsofbooze

by designatedforassignment on Dec 28, 2010 11:56 PM PST up reply actions  

The idea is that if that catcher had an entire season at DH, they'd have better numbers

but catching stops that out of the physical wear it places on the player. You can play a full season at LF—the last time a Catcher caught a full season was 1944, and it was 155 games. Even Jason Kendall, the active catcher who catches the most games in a season, has only twice caught more than 90% of his team’s games in a season.

Source: http://members.tripod.com/bb_catchers/catchers/ironmen.htm

rebuildingseason.blogspot.com

by Rebuilding Season on Dec 29, 2010 12:08 AM PST up reply actions  

But I'm not looking for the guys who had the most talent,

I’m looking for the guys who produced the most in an A’s uniform.

by danmerqury on Dec 29, 2010 12:21 AM PST up reply actions  

The idea is that you have to field a catcher and almost none of them play

160 games per year. You’ll end up with a list with either no catchers ranked highly, or someone like Tenace who played lots of games at other positions ranked higher than Steinbach who actually caught almost all the time when he played.

But if your objective is simply to list the position players with the most compiled value then this may not apply.

It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2010 4:49 AM PST up reply actions  

Excellent work Dan!

I have abandonment issues. Thanks Lew.

by OptimistPrime on Dec 28, 2010 8:57 AM PST reply actions  

The best part of that chart

is the Rickey line at the top.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Dec 28, 2010 9:09 AM PST reply actions   1 recs

Agreed.

If you are constantly dwelling on something that happened in the past or feeling anxious about the future, you are missing out on YOUR LIFE.~Jill Costello

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1178822/7/index.htm#ixzz17D2858UE

by lynnzgal on Dec 28, 2010 9:14 AM PST up reply actions  

danmercury is rickey

paul is the walrus

I have abandonment issues. Thanks Lew.

by OptimistPrime on Dec 28, 2010 9:32 AM PST up reply actions  

sorry dan, missed the "q"

coo coo ka chew

I have abandonment issues. Thanks Lew.

by OptimistPrime on Dec 28, 2010 9:32 AM PST up reply actions  

In my head

I pronounce it “mer-qwere-y”

If you are constantly dwelling on something that happened in the past or feeling anxious about the future, you are missing out on YOUR LIFE.~Jill Costello

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1178822/7/index.htm#ixzz17D2858UE

by lynnzgal on Dec 28, 2010 9:36 AM PST up reply actions  

We Have Appletinis Mostly

I love green because money be green.

by Joey C. on Dec 28, 2010 2:58 PM PST up reply actions  

Huh?

Are you talking about the abomination that was WHAM…

or is there some cool new band called “Appletinis Mostly” that I’m missing out on?

"I'm glad I could contribute suicide bombings"- MissOakland

by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 29, 2010 12:23 PM PST up reply actions  

torry

If you are constantly dwelling on something that happened in the past or feeling anxious about the future, you are missing out on YOUR LIFE.~Jill Costello

by lynnzgal on Dec 28, 2010 10:57 AM PST up reply actions  

In my head, I always think of the Rainha do Axé.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Dec 28, 2010 7:26 PM PST up reply actions  

hawt!

If you are constantly dwelling on something that happened in the past or feeling anxious about the future, you are missing out on YOUR LIFE.~Jill Costello

by lynnzgal on Dec 28, 2010 7:44 PM PST up reply actions  

I know, right?

She’s four months older than me, but she’s still way hawter than any of those twenty-something pop starlets.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Dec 29, 2010 7:05 PM PST up reply actions  

you mean

danmercury is the ricky

I am only pretty on the outside

by Future Ed on Dec 28, 2010 10:11 AM PST up reply actions  

So danmerqury= Rickey Henderson

If we’re going on a WAR basis, that would be a fine characterization.

Also, if I read that correctly, Paul = The Walrus.
After a short mustache study, that means that PaulThomas must = Carney Lansford.

"I'm glad I could contribute suicide bombings"- MissOakland

by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 29, 2010 12:28 PM PST up reply actions  

as a kid

I just thought he (rickey) was the man!
the stats prove that, sweetness!

by Lew Ghost on Dec 28, 2010 4:16 PM PST up reply actions  

The lineup would look like what?

Going by WAM, Dave Henderson starts over Murphy in CF.
If going all in, Rickey is in CF and Canseco in LF.
Murphy is the 5th OF on this team.
Also, Giambi is at 1B, not McGwire. With Bando at 3B and Campy at SS, McGwire better bring his 2B glove to play on this team (or DH).

by gratefuldude on Dec 28, 2010 9:36 AM PST reply actions  

I guess I shouldn't be altogether surprised that Mark Ellis made the list

But I sort of am. Good times.

I love green because money be green.

by Joey C. on Dec 28, 2010 9:48 AM PST reply actions  

I was a bit surprised too, I just don't picture him with this group

great defense, but pretty average hitting.

"Life is tough .... It's even tougher if you're stupid." - John Wayne

by 94065 on Dec 28, 2010 10:30 AM PST up reply actions  

Maybe the best player North Dakota will ever produce.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Dec 28, 2010 3:06 PM PST up reply actions  

Ellis is from South Dakota

Best players from North Dakota include Darin Erstad, Travis Hafner, Rick Helling.

Others from South Dakota: Justin Duchscherer, Keith Foulke, Jason Kubel, Terry Francona, Sparky Anderson.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Dec 28, 2010 7:33 PM PST up reply actions  

So in other words,

Jason Kubel will one day either play for the A’s or become a manager.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Dec 28, 2010 10:19 PM PST up reply actions  

He will probably come to the A's.

One week AFTER he is fitted for his wheelchair

by Tutu-late on Dec 29, 2010 7:17 AM PST up reply actions  

If anyone'll pop out, that boob'll.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Dec 29, 2010 7:06 PM PST up reply actions  

Sounds like a lyric from the Cletus the Slack-jawed Yokel song...

Take your silver mod tubescreamer, your dr. z, your nocaster, put them in a pile and burn them. if god gave you a thousand years, you still couldn't touch this. you can't f***ing keep time to this.

by Elvez on Dec 29, 2010 10:02 PM PST up reply actions  

Pretty.

All flash no substance hair twirler.

by pam5981 on Dec 28, 2010 10:14 AM PST reply actions  

Rickey's "The Man"!!!

"We don't see things as they are, we see things as we are."
~ Anais Nin

by UncleLeo on Dec 28, 2010 10:18 AM PST reply actions  

So what you're saying is Rickey was good?

Thanks for the newsflash, hipsterbot.

And the last remnants memory destroys.

by Leopold Bloom on Dec 28, 2010 11:35 AM PST reply actions  

hipster boyfriend

hipster boyfriend, dan is a hipster boyfriend

NO PAMS!!!!

I am only pretty on the outside

by Future Ed on Dec 28, 2010 12:02 PM PST up reply actions  

question

Are you counting total career WAR, WAE, WAM? Or just for the years when they played on the A’s? I think it’s probably the first thing, right? Nice post, anyway.

by colin on Dec 28, 2010 12:05 PM PST reply actions  

I love what you did with Adam Darowski's work danmerqury

Seeing half of the lines drop down to zero on the right just looks depressing (I understand the terms so it makes sense, but still) It stinks that Tejada would’ve made it onto the WAM list if he had played one more year with the A’s.

"Juuuuust a bit outside" - Harry Doyle

by ArunisArun on Dec 28, 2010 1:37 PM PST reply actions  

Just curious, but why not use WAR/year?

Taking cumulative WAR is basically on par with games played or hits in that you need to apply context, but the Moyer comp would show a significant drop compared to Koufax when you take the total number by seasons played.

Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples

Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.

If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.

by DMOAS on Dec 28, 2010 2:13 PM PST reply actions  

If you change to WAR/year then the leaderboard will be scattered with players whose career's were ended prematurly

The idea behind using WAR, WAE, and WAM is to strike a comprimise between cumulative WAR and WAR/year (or at least that’s part of the idea). Although, I’m not sure why I’m trying to explain this as danmerqury did a good job of this already in the post.

"Juuuuust a bit outside" - Harry Doyle

by ArunisArun on Dec 28, 2010 2:22 PM PST up reply actions  

You need to play a minimum of 10 years to qualify for the HOF

So I think that alone would cut out the non-worthy outliers that that creates. But point taken.

Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples

Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.

If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.

by DMOAS on Dec 28, 2010 5:09 PM PST up reply actions  

nice to see both of the Henderson Brothers on the all-time 9

BK: This guy is on fire, he is really smokin'.
KenKo: Oh yeah, Bill? What's he smokin'?

by jlanning17 on Dec 28, 2010 2:56 PM PST reply actions  

two out of three.

Steve Henderson was the third of the Henderson triplets.

"I'm glad I could contribute suicide bombings"- MissOakland

by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 29, 2010 12:31 PM PST up reply actions  

Dunno about everyone else,

but I’d be interested in this approach taken to find the worst players too.

by rebus on Dec 28, 2010 4:23 PM PST reply actions  

Not even close.

Gonzalez was fairly decent, for a long relief guy. 0.5 WAR in 60 something innings.

by danmerqury on Dec 28, 2010 4:57 PM PST up reply actions  

I know, I know...

I just can’t get that one game in Seattle out of my mind, where the only thing missing was the screen in front of the mound.

by Tutu-late on Dec 28, 2010 4:59 PM PST up reply actions  

Hmm

Losses Below Replacement?

A quick search at Fangraphs reveals:

1. Ruben Sierra, -2.4 WAR
2. Larry Murray, -2.0 WAR
3. Rob Picciolo, -1.9 WAR
4. Vida Blue, -1.8 WAR (yeah, doesn’t really count because he was a pitcher)
5. Mike Edwards, -1.6 WAR

Since 2000:
1. Antonio Perez, -1.3 WAR
2. Eric Karros, -1.0 WAR
3. Esteban German, -0.8 WAR
4. Jose Ortiz, -0.8 WAR
5. Mark Bellhorn, Keith Ginter, Chris Singleton, Ron Gant, Barry Zito, John Jaha all had -0.7 WAR.

Barry Zito was more valuable with a bat in his hands than Antonio Perez. Sounds about right.

"Ain't no man can avoid being born average, but there ain't no man got to be common." - Satchel Paige

by YonYonson on Dec 28, 2010 6:25 PM PST up reply actions  

Boredom...

Worst position players from 2000-2010 by team:

Angels: Brandon Wood, -2.6 WAR
Astros: Pedro Feliz, -1.5 WAR
A’s: Antonio Perez, -1.3 WAR
Blue Jays: Dave Berg, -1.5 WAR
Braves: Melky Cabrera, -1.2 WAR
Brewers: Marquis Grissom, -1.5 WAR
Cardinals: Roger Cedeño, -1.5 WAR
Cubs: Aaron Miles, -1.4 WAR
Diamondbacks: Jose Cruz, -1.1 WAR
Dodgers: Jason Grabowski, -1.5 WAR
Giants: Jose Vizcaino, -0.7 WAR
Indians: Josh Barfield, -1.6 WAR
Mariners: Matt Tuiasosopo, -1.1 WAR
Marlins: Reggie Abercrombie, -1.1 WAR
Mets: Anderson Hernandez/Jay Bell, -0.7 WAR
Nationals/Expos: Peter Bergeron, -4.1 (wow)
Orioles: Lou Montanez, -1.4 WAR
Padres: Chris Gomez, -1.6 WAR
Phillies: Kevin Jordan, -1.6 WAR
Pirates: Jose Castillo, -1.6 WAR
Rangers: Ricky Ledee, -2.0 WAR
Rays: Damion Easley, -1.3 WAR
Red Sox: Tony Clark, -1.4 WAR (Scott Hatteberg is 3rd, -1.1 WAR)
Reds: Ray Olmedo, -1.6 WAR
Rockies: Brent Butler, -1.8 WAR
Royals: Dee Brown, -3.6 WAR (Neifi Perez, -3.4 WAR)
Tigers: Craig Paquette, -2.2 WAR
Twins: Rondell White, -2.1 WAR
White Sox: Andy Gonzalez/Timo Perez -2.2 WAR
Yankees: Tony Womack, -2.3 WAR

"Ain't no man can avoid being born average, but there ain't no man got to be common." - Satchel Paige

by YonYonson on Dec 28, 2010 7:00 PM PST up reply actions   4 recs

One kind, kind request.
Angels: Brandon Wood, -2.6 WAR

Please to be making sure Brandon Wood is the Angels’ 2011 3B/gets 600 PA on the 2011 Angels. Thank you.

by Blicks on Dec 28, 2010 7:22 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm just amazed

I never knew Peter Bergeron was THAT bad. Did he swing holding the fat part of the bat? Run to third base after getting a hit?

"Ain't no man can avoid being born average, but there ain't no man got to be common." - Satchel Paige

by YonYonson on Dec 29, 2010 1:51 PM PST up reply actions  

Whats up AN

Sure is slow in here today.
Can someone let Adrian know its okay to call us, we won’t mind, really.

by brian.only on Dec 28, 2010 8:06 PM PST reply actions  

Two of my childhood beliefs are confirmed

Dwayne Murphy was awesome and Ruben Sierra was a lump of cat shit.

by Mike Garza on Dec 28, 2010 8:49 PM PST reply actions   1 recs

Lump of cat shit

The beauty of the English language. I like it.

I love green because money be green.

by Joey C. on Dec 29, 2010 1:17 AM PST up reply actions  

Actually I take that back

The lump of cat shit took the occasional walk and fewer called 3rd strikes.

by Mike Garza on Dec 29, 2010 7:35 AM PST up reply actions  

Rubin Sierra

hit my mom in the stomach with a foul ball (I was too young to know much about his contribution), but I guess I’m glad to have stats back up my contempt for him?

by Lew Ghost on Dec 30, 2010 10:51 PM PST up reply actions  

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