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Around SBN: Following UFC 146 Loss, Jason 'Mayhem' Miller 'Done' in UFC

Let us Add Hitting, but not forget about pitching!!

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via imgs.sfgate.com


 

We have talked at nausea about the A’s lack of hitting in 2010, and how we need to upgrade in 2011 to compete. We have talked about the valuable WAR statistics (Wins above Replacement), and our complete lack of power (109 HRs in 2010). Or the fact that the likes of Matt Watson, Gabe Gross, Jake Fox, Travis Buck, Matt Carson, Akinori Iwamura, Jeff Larish and Jeremy Hermida had a combined 400+ plate appearances despite having a combined WAR of -3.2. This is completely unacceptable when taking into account that they averaged about 2.7 plate appearances per game.

However, what about our regulars? And where they stood. Pitching is supposed to be our strength right? Then why did Michael Wuertz, Jerry Blevins and Henry Rodriguez have a combined WAR under replacement level? The simple answer is that they were not that good despite pitching a combined 116 innings, or nearly 13 total nine inning games. This could be a reason that we finished just .500 despite the fact that our starters absolutely flourished this season. When you have three starting pitchers that combined for 44 wins and a WAR of 11.4 there is no reason why you shouldn’t have 90 wins. I would have to conclude that the front and back ends of our bullpen (not including Andrew Bailey) was a major reason for us not challenging the Rangers for the division crown. Consequently, why have we made no moves in order to fix this problem? I understand that bullpen arms are in high demand this off-season, but they are not too expensive, and even small market teams can build a strong pen.

The second problem arrives in the form of our "offensive" outfield, pun very much intended. From my count our outfield, both part and full time, combined for 29 homeruns. To put that into context, 20 players hit that many homeruns in 2010. By now our lack of pop in 2010 is well known in these areas. And, I believe that Bean and Co. are attempting to work on that right now. But how? Who? Where?

We have already traded for David DeJesus, who has never hit for more than 13 HRs in his seven MLB seasons. With Coco Crisp on the roster, DeJesus will be playing either RF or LF. Additionally, our options are extremely limited when it comes to free agency and trade candidates.

Jason Werth: He finished 8th in the NL MVP voting on Monday and will be demanding a minimum of 13MM. This despite the fact that he has struck out over 400 times the last three seasons, and has a defensive WAR of 0.5 combined over the last three seasons. Add the fact that he is 31 and will be demanding a four year contract makes me believe that Beaned will not go after him, and shouldn’t.

Carl Crawford: As with Werth, it is unrealistic to believe that we will outbid the Angels, Tigers, Yankees and Redsox for his services. However, if we had a chance, would it be worth our while? First off, neither Dejesus nor Crisp can play RF, and we know that Crawford doesn’t have the arm to do so. Consequently, we would have to trade one of the other two in order to make room for Crawford. He has been consistently good, hitting over .300 in five of the last six seasons. Additionally, Crawford has compiled 260 SB’s over that time. However, his defensive WAR is barley over 3 during that time. Something I know that Billy Beane is not looking for (Crisp had a defensive WAR of 2.7 in 2007 alone).

Magglio Ordonez: His age, injuries and defensive liabilities really worry me. However, signing him wouldn’t be as much of a risk as other candidates out there. He should come relatively cheap and,  if healthy, can provide the pop that we need. His offensive WAR over the last three seasons is better than any outfielder that we currently have on the roster, and at 37 may have a year left in him. His OBP has consistently hovered around .375 over the last three seasons, and his bat seems to have some pop in it.

Chris Young: Again there are issues I have with him, however, I think you will find that with nearly every player on the market. His OBP is not Beane like, neither is his defensive capabilities. But, no one can deny the fact that he has hit nearly 100 HRs over the last four seasons, and at 27 is in his prime. I understand that his natural outfield position is CF, from what I have read he has the ability to play right. Arizona seems to be offering everyone and anyone on their roster, and I believe that we could get Young. This is a good possibility if you ask me.

Carlos Beltran: He hasn’t even combined for a full 162 game season since 2008, and with a hefty price tag (19MM in 2011), this could be a pipe dream. However, if we do offer something in return I believe the Mets might actually be willing to pay some of that contract, if not most of it. For a large market team it is possible that they will take on a nice size of a contract in order to get trade chips in return.

Those are just a couple options outside the usual characters that we have discussed on this site. Adding the players that we have talked about on AN to this list would be relatively inconsequential.

Now that it appears that Hisashi Iwakuma will not sign with the A’s, it appears that we do need a #5 starter. Lucky for us there is an abundance of those type of players on the free agent market. I would be looking for an innings eater that can help take pressure off of our subpar bullpen. I believe some of the options listed below will really help the A’s.

Dave Bush: AGE: 31    2010 Stats:  8-13, 4.54 ERA, 5.6 Innings per Start, 1.51 WHIP, -1.1. WAR 

Bruce Chen: AGE: 33   2010 Stats: 12-7, 4.16 ERA, 5.4 Innings per Start, 1.40 WHIP,  2.1 WAR

Jorge De La Rosa: AGE: 29  2010 Stats: 8-6, 4.22 ERA, 6 Innings per Start, 1.31 WHIP, 1.2 WAR

Freddy Garcia: AGE: 35  2010 Stats: 12-6, 4.84 ERA, 5.6 Innings per Start, 1.38 WHIP, 2.1 WAR

Jon Garland: AGE: 31    2010 Stats: 14-2, 3.47 ERA, 6.1 Innings per Start, 1.32 WHIP, 1.8 WAR

Brad Penny: AGE: 32     2010 Stats: 3-4, 3.23 ERA, 6.1 Innings per Start, 1.29 WHIP, 0.6 WAR

Vicente Padilla: AGE: 33 2010 Stats: 6-5, 4.07 ERA, 6.0 Innings per Start, 1.08 WHIP, 0.7 WAR

 

So there you have it; a few different options that would probably cost less than 5MM, and could be had on a one year contract. Personally, I like the idea of Jon Garland, Bruce Chen or Vicente Padilla. There are many different bullpen arms out there that could help our lackluster group. Despite dreaming about the likes of Grant Balfour, Jesse Crain, Scott Downs, Frank Francisco etc… we have to be a little more level headed than that. I am looking more at Miguel Batista, Aaron Heilman, Guillermo Mota, Jon Rauch and Kerry Wood. All those options would add to our bullpen and take the pressure off of Ziegler, Wuertz etc…

 

The A’s are really not that far from contention. Our starting pitching gives us a legitimate chance to win every time out there. However, we must upgrade at certain positions to contend with the Texas Rangers for the division. Coincidentally, we don’t only have to upgrade the offense, we need to make a move or two in regards to our pitching staff. I believe adding Jon Garland and Guillermo Mota will help build off our strong performance in 2010. You couple that with brining in a Adrian Beltre, Magglio Ordonez, or some combination of power hitters and you have an A’s team ready to contend in 2011.

 

 

Poll
Do You Agree That We Need To Add A Starter And Reliever This Off-Season?
YES
35 votes
Just a Starter
28 votes
Just a Reliever
34 votes
Neither
23 votes

120 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 274 comments  |  1 recs  | 

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Appreciate the effort

One thing regarding Crisp and Crawford, though.

Since that mentioned 2007 season, Crisp averaged 11 UZR/150*, while Crawford averaged a very consistent 20.7 UZR/150. So, cherry picking the best year Crisp had against (I think) wrong data for Crawford does not show that Crawford is a bad fielder.

*UZR Runs Above Average per 150 Defensive Games

by elcroata on Nov 24, 2010 5:00 AM PST reply actions  

Crisp also played in Fenway which has a known UZR distorting effect on OFers

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Nov 24, 2010 8:53 AM PST up reply actions  

I'd say "suspected" distorting effect

Is there a firm study of Fenway UZR out there? I’m not aware of one, though the suspicion is certainly there given the utterly bizarre gyrations in Ellsbury’s and Crisp’s UZRs.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Nov 24, 2010 12:18 PM PST up reply actions  

Didn't MGL add a "Manny effect" because of the Green Monster?

He had to take out balls that were too high on the wall to field.

by danmerqury on Nov 24, 2010 12:30 PM PST up reply actions  

this

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Nov 24, 2010 2:38 PM PST up reply actions  

Honestly

I wasn’t attempting to cherry pick certain information. When doing research and comparing numbers i cam across that information, and found it useful. The point i was attempting to make is that Crisp will be making at least 1/3 of what Crawford will be making in 2011, and we have no room in the OF for Crawford.

"He who lives on hope will die fasting" Benjamin Franklin was a fool

"If we are thinking playoffs, why not look towards the mountaintop"

I like my quote better

by nocal81(Vincent) on Nov 24, 2010 9:33 AM PST up reply actions  

OK

But still, you led to a conclusion that Crisp is clearly superior outfielder to Crawford and this is a point not too many people would make.

by elcroata on Nov 24, 2010 11:07 AM PST up reply actions  

Chris Young would be nice

the best thing about getting him would be the length of team control. Might be very hard for Oakland to find a better player willing to come to the A’s in the FA market.

2011:$5M, 12:$7M, 13:$8.5M, 14:$11M club option ($1.5M buyout)

three years of his prime @8million per. Four years if he’s worth it by then.

I won’t even guess at what the trade would be for. If we “Save” 10+million a year by not signing Ewok we can afford at few more pitchers for sure. I don’t think we should get our hopes up Oakland will sign an eliet hitter. the Young contract is back loaded also. We can spend more now. We need cheap (relativly) long term power and Young would be a good step in that direction. His D is Meh but we can’t have it all. his solid power and speed would be a very nice asset. It Could be interesting to play Him in Center and put two more CF around him.

I think things the way things are going and if we stay aggresive with snagging hitters. 2012/13 will be the year the A’s make a run. Next years too soon . 2014 be too late with our Pitchers getting into their high dollar arb years and our habit of trading them before we lose them for nothing. (draft picks smaft picks, it will be 2018 before we could get much out of an Arb A crop.) Comon Billy go all in. we have a window.

nice write up.

"Gratuitous gesticulating together sounds even better"

by OmahaHi on Nov 24, 2010 5:39 AM PST reply actions  

I want Chris Young too

For all the reasons that have been stated. However, I am concerned about how his 25hr power will translate going from Arizona to Oakland. But I would definately throw a few proposals Towers way because that is a good contract plus an outfield of Young, Dejesus, and Crisp sounds great from an offensive and defensive stand-point.

I would start by offering Henry Rodriguez and Eric Sogard. Although ideally I would trade Rodriguez and Kouzmanoff, but that would be dependant on us signing Beltre and Arizona trading away Reynolds (who I want no part of).

by ArunisArun on Nov 24, 2010 7:14 AM PST up reply actions  

I'm on board

Getting someone locked up like that for their prime years will be fantastic. Well worth a couple of prospects. I’m turning into a WIN NOW kinda guy with the Angels being down and Seattle so dysfunctional.

Let’s make this happen. I like trading for real talent with potential talent.

It's just more exciting with Billy Beane running the team.

by ru155 on Nov 24, 2010 7:25 AM PST up reply actions  

The A's could trade for Chris Young and then sign Chris Young

thereby adding hitting, not forgetting about pitching, and also confusing the fuck out of everyone in baseball.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Nov 24, 2010 12:20 PM PST up reply actions  

What Would Really Confuse People

Is making the OF Chris Young pitch and the pitcher play the OF in a lopsided game. I am all for that LOL

"He who lives on hope will die fasting" Benjamin Franklin was a fool

"If we are thinking playoffs, why not look towards the mountaintop"

I like my quote better

by nocal81(Vincent) on Nov 24, 2010 12:21 PM PST up reply actions  

Or, at least, have Chris Young pinch hit for Chris Young in an interleague game.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 24, 2010 3:18 PM PST up reply actions  

Or have Chris Young pinch run for Chris Young in a intraleague game

It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 25, 2010 1:47 AM PST up reply actions  

I'm all in for this

All I can say about stats is…

SCOTT BROSIUS!!

by stranahanahan on Nov 24, 2010 2:09 PM PST up reply actions  

Too bad Buan is gone... this is a case where it would awesome for him to try to figure it out.

Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples

Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.

If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.

by DMOAS on Nov 24, 2010 2:14 PM PST up reply actions  

I actually don't like either of those guys

Better that it remain an amusing comment.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Nov 24, 2010 2:45 PM PST up reply actions  

Holy crap

I think I go to school with this kid.
One of the videos is filmed at our ballfield!

All I can say about stats is…

SCOTT BROSIUS!!

by stranahanahan on Nov 24, 2010 2:30 PM PST up reply actions  

Wait nevermind

But the guy he does the scout video with, Kurt Yacko, well I did go to school with him

All I can say about stats is…

SCOTT BROSIUS!!

by stranahanahan on Nov 24, 2010 2:35 PM PST up reply actions  

chapman?

"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball

by flipgatey3 on Nov 25, 2010 8:36 PM PST up reply actions  

I've been seeing this guy's name pop up on A's boards lately....he is close to signing with us or something?

I looked him up and he seems like he could be a huge 5 tool player for any team. His instructional videos includes instructions with major leaguers here in America.

Interesting.

C'mon Beane! Close off the bottom deck and reopen the top!

by proevn on Nov 24, 2010 8:07 AM PST up reply actions  

Wut?

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Nov 24, 2010 12:21 PM PST up reply actions  

This is incredible

Oh. Em. Gosh.
Holy shit this is hysterical.
It’s so convincing in the first 20 seconds or so of the video that you don’t know if it’s a joke or not.
Then he starts making those throws.
+1

All I can say about stats is…

SCOTT BROSIUS!!

by stranahanahan on Nov 24, 2010 2:11 PM PST up reply actions  

Ay! Stay on the bag!

hahaha

All I can say about stats is…

SCOTT BROSIUS!!

by stranahanahan on Nov 24, 2010 2:13 PM PST up reply actions  

I think I'm in love

"Some field has fences, and sometime, the field cant hold a player, but most of the time, a field cant hold Domingo"

http://domingobeisbol.com/Domingo/Home.html

by hero66 on Nov 25, 2010 12:37 AM PST up reply actions  

I wouldn't worry about the pen

Quite a few pen members had bad to terrible years but relievers are notoriously volatile and they all have the talent to be pieces in a major league pen.

"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton

by vignette17 on Nov 24, 2010 8:01 AM PST reply actions  

Easier to get pitching

  A starter that wants to bounce back and be a top free agent next year will want to come to oakland unlike a hitter since the park favors pitchers so much. Chris Young would be good on a 1 year deal.

by Arcman on Nov 24, 2010 8:08 AM PST reply actions  

The phrase is "ad nauseum."

From the American Heritage Dictionary:

Argumentum ad nauseam or argument from repetition or argumentum ad infinitum is an argument made repeatedly (possibly by different people) until nobody cares to discuss it any more. This may sometimes, but not always, be a form of proof by assertion.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 24, 2010 8:09 AM PST reply actions  

Why does it seem that alot of folks on AN are so damn concerned...

with the spellng/grammatical errors of posters? I could see it if there were blatant mistakes all over the post that made it difficult to understand the content but this is not the case here. I am pretty sure that we all understood that he meant “ad nauseum” even though he typed “at”…

Did you just want to make nocal81 feel stupid? Are you actually trying to educate him with your definition?

I am not quite sure what your motivation is but this type of nitpicking increases the negativity on AN and in my opinion is toxic to the community.

by finleyforever on Nov 24, 2010 8:42 AM PST up reply actions  

Whenever I actually get around to writing a post

I will hope that there will be commentors pointing out flaws in my writing. For all of the discussion/arguments that come from a good post I would hope that the post itself is as clear as possible.

I love AN and anything that can be done to improve it’s content is alright in my book.

Also, there are a lot of thinkers on AN and to point out a spelling/gramatical error is very much in the same vain as pointing out when someone posts an inaccurate stat. I think pointing out a error like using “at” when it should be “ad” is equivalent to pointing out when someone says posts that Cliff Pennington’s WAR in 2010 was 37 when it should be 3.7; sure it’s pretty easy to see what was intended. But what if the reader was quite unfamiliar with WAR? He likely will figure it out too, but lacking a solid understanding of WAR he may assume that 37 was in fact intended. Similarly, what about the reader who has never heard the phrase “ad nauseum”?

by ArunisArun on Nov 24, 2010 9:17 AM PST up reply actions   3 recs

Rec'd

And I feel the same. Unless there is an obvious patronizing or insulting tone to it (never happened to me here) I very much welcome and appreciate any corrections and try to either learn the proper usage or be more careful in using what I perhaps already knew.

by elcroata on Nov 24, 2010 11:12 AM PST up reply actions  

{pats on head}

there there, don’t worry about it. we still like you here.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Nov 24, 2010 11:17 AM PST up reply actions  

Oooh!. oooh!

me, too! Beer….mmmmmm…..

"By the end of the year, I'll have Dallas throwing right-handed'' -Ben Sheets

by mrod on Nov 24, 2010 11:21 AM PST up reply actions  

I'm flexible....

besides it’s Mike’s turn to share the beer!

"By the end of the year, I'll have Dallas throwing right-handed'' -Ben Sheets

by mrod on Nov 24, 2010 11:23 AM PST up reply actions  

I'm picking up a selection at BevMo for tomorrow, actually.

Nothing really out of the ordinary though. Probably Chimay blue and a couple good IPAs or something, and then a few bottles of Wente Riva Ranch and Charles Wetmore Reserve for the snooty people.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Nov 24, 2010 11:24 AM PST up reply actions  

Looks good to me!

"By the end of the year, I'll have Dallas throwing right-handed'' -Ben Sheets

by mrod on Nov 24, 2010 11:42 AM PST up reply actions  

Woah. I'll try it.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Nov 24, 2010 11:51 AM PST up reply actions  

oh snap. TWICE?!?!?!

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Nov 24, 2010 11:23 AM PST up reply actions  

"insulting tone"

is kind of subjective on the internet, isn’t it? Myself, I usually try to keep things light and positive when I post, and yet sometimes I have been misunderstood when attempting to say something. And having to explain it again isn’t any fun, but generally I know when I’m being an asshole or someone else is….it’s more the use of language than anything.

No need to name names, but if you have been around here long enough, I think you would know more or less the folks with short fuses, general ass-holish comments, and the ones who are more comedic and laid back, along with the analytical and logical minded ones.

It takes all kinds around here……just like a jungle! Go A’s!

"By the end of the year, I'll have Dallas throwing right-handed'' -Ben Sheets

by mrod on Nov 24, 2010 11:21 AM PST up reply actions  

#&#@&$##%&@%@#&$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Short fuse?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 24, 2010 4:58 PM PST up reply actions  

Do you mean "improve its content"?

{ducks, leaves}

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 24, 2010 4:57 PM PST up reply actions  

Yes, I was actually trying to educate him with my definition.

Not everything has to have a sinister ulterior motive. It bothers me that adults say things like “for all intensive purposes,” “at nausea,” “boldfaced lie,” “definately,” “he is a dominate pitcher,” “I could care less,” “that’s unexceptable,” “don’t drudge that up,” “conservativism,” “hand and hand,” “intermural,” “mano e mano,” “in route,” “mute point,” “on the lamb,” “the one in only,” “preemptory,” and all the rest of them, because unchecked, they imply a casual and willful ignorance.

The always predictable negative response to correction implies the same. Somewhere along the way, the West went from a society of people that valued education and sought to always be learning and improving to a society of people who view education and erudition as suspicious, and hold to be virtues things like “salt of the earth,” and “common man.”

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 24, 2010 9:25 AM PST up reply actions  

...
The always predictable negative response to correction implies the same. Somewhere along the way, the West went from a society of people that valued education and sought to always be learning and improving to a society of people who view education and erudition as suspicious, and hold to be virtues things like "salt of the earth," and "common man."

Or it means that language is, and always has been, an ever-changing part of our culture. Language, and especially many of the metaphors you cite, are a only valuable for their function, a phrase’s ability to conjure the same meaning in the mind of the speaker and the listener. Do you really think that our way of “correctly” speaking now contains no ancient malapropisms?

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Nov 24, 2010 10:47 AM PST up reply actions  

I've heard this argument, and it has a lot of validity.

But we live in a time in which information and education is more readily available than ever. The “evolution” of language is now no longer a function of the inevitable ignorance brought on by decentralized societies of people prevented from learning by significant systemic barriers, but a function instead of willful ignorance. The last couple of decades are really the first time in human history that we find people saying things like “It’s time to stop trusting the experts,” and “I don’t care if I’m saying it wrong.” This is not to say that people have always been pro-science or whatever, but education and learning were always considered virtues and values; today that’s an assumption about society’s values that I don’t think we can make.

There was a time when people would have been petrified of looking ignorant or uneducated. Men would dress themselves up in suits for special occasions not out of respect for the occasion but because they wanted to look like they belonged among the elites. The idea of not appearing to be an intellectually valid member of society was mortifying. Today it barely seems possible.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 24, 2010 10:54 AM PST up reply actions  

You think that anti intellectualism is a new thing. That is historically incorrect.

Furthermore, you are suggesting that there is a correct or educated way of writing, I would posit that there is not.

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Nov 24, 2010 11:41 AM PST up reply actions  

actually, there is

If you turn in college-level papers with poor grammar/spelling/formatting, professors will refuse to grade them. Hence, you have the various formats (APA, MLA, etc). I would call that the “educated” way of writing.

I have NO rooting interest. It simply become[s] a process of elimination of who I dislike less. - 67MARQUEZ
!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam

by cuppingmaster on Nov 24, 2010 11:54 AM PST up reply actions  

Well

St. Joes can keep burning the trees because my combined college GPA is 3.8, and i am on the National Honors List.

"He who lives on hope will die fasting" Benjamin Franklin was a fool

"If we are thinking playoffs, why not look towards the mountaintop"

I like my quote better

by nocal81(Vincent) on Nov 24, 2010 12:03 PM PST up reply actions  

But not as an English major I suspect?

Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples

Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.

If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.

by DMOAS on Nov 24, 2010 1:27 PM PST up reply actions  

oh snap

Mira mi pinche pelo guey!!! Pinche piernotas que tengo de jugar futbol soccer todo los dias con mis camaradas!!!

by MudkipzGetHYPHY on Nov 24, 2010 2:02 PM PST up reply actions  

Nope

But i am a member of this group. Only 5% of American college students can say this.

Sorry i just don’t appreciate it when individuals that i don’t even know question my intelligence.

"He who lives on hope will die fasting" Benjamin Franklin was a fool

"If we are thinking playoffs, why not look towards the mountaintop"

I like my quote better

by nocal81(Vincent) on Nov 24, 2010 2:09 PM PST up reply actions  

"He who lives on hope will die fasting" Benjamin Franklin was a fool

"If we are thinking playoffs, why not look towards the mountaintop"

I like my quote better

by nocal81(Vincent) on Nov 24, 2010 2:11 PM PST up reply actions  

From the book "Bronx Zoo"...

Reggie Jackson: I have an IQ of 160
Micky Rivers: Out of what? A thousand?

by HCF from Oakball on Nov 26, 2010 7:16 AM PST up reply actions  

I don't think anyone did.

To recap:
Me: Hey, you got that wrong.
Other guy: WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT
Me: Just trying to inform.
DFA: Language evolves.
Me: I don’t think it should anymore, and if it does, it shouldn’t be because people are just too lazy to do it correctly.
DFA: There is no such thing as a correct way.
Cup: Sure there is, and college profs won’t accept anything less than the correct way.
NoCal: I have a 3.8 GPA.
DMOAS: Not in English though?
NoCal: Nope.

So, uhm, who questioned your intelligence?

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 24, 2010 2:13 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah, I wasn't questioning his intelligence

I just know based on one of my degrees that certain majors have a tendency to either inflate a GPA without traditional academic testing measures or don’t require essay writing so critical work using the typical English language structure isn’t necessary. So to say you’re part of this group isn’t to say you can appropriately speak as an expert on the language. It just means that you have a high academic achievement within your select field. Which, by the way, with all sincerity, kudos on that.

Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples

Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.

If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.

by DMOAS on Nov 24, 2010 2:19 PM PST up reply actions  

You Would Be Correct

My major does not require that i take a large amount of Science classes, if it had, then i would be looking more at a 3.0. Furthermore, i am not the one that sparked up this conversation because of one single error on the post.

"He who lives on hope will die fasting" Benjamin Franklin was a fool

"If we are thinking playoffs, why not look towards the mountaintop"

I like my quote better

by nocal81(Vincent) on Nov 24, 2010 2:22 PM PST up reply actions  

Well there is that...

But someone somewhere did kind of blow it out of proportion with a negative reaction to the brief and polite correction. I don’t think that was originally you either, but that’s a major part of it too.

Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples

Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.

If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.

by DMOAS on Nov 24, 2010 2:33 PM PST up reply actions  

No, you're not the one that sparked up this conversation.

Finleyforever is. And he pretty much conceded the point right away when presented with an alternative viewpoint.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 24, 2010 2:34 PM PST up reply actions  

See Below

If you didn’t question my intelligence or lack of intelligence, then i must be completely losing my mind.

"He who lives on hope will die fasting" Benjamin Franklin was a fool

"If we are thinking playoffs, why not look towards the mountaintop"

I like my quote better

by nocal81(Vincent) on Nov 24, 2010 2:20 PM PST up reply actions  

I didn't question your intelligence or lack thereof at all...

Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples

Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.

If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.

by DMOAS on Nov 24, 2010 2:21 PM PST up reply actions  

Wasn't Speaking About You

"He who lives on hope will die fasting" Benjamin Franklin was a fool

"If we are thinking playoffs, why not look towards the mountaintop"

I like my quote better

by nocal81(Vincent) on Nov 24, 2010 2:22 PM PST up reply actions  

Just checking :)

Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples

Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.

If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.

by DMOAS on Nov 24, 2010 2:33 PM PST up reply actions  

Not losing your mind...

just a bit too sensitive, I think.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 24, 2010 2:34 PM PST up reply actions  

I would argue that those sources bend to the times and common usage, they just do it slowly.

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Nov 24, 2010 2:42 PM PST up reply actions  

That ain't right... oh... it is... never mind.

Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples

Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.

If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.

by DMOAS on Nov 24, 2010 2:58 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm anxiously waiting for the Bill of Rights to be rewritten in LOLCats.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Nov 24, 2010 12:03 PM PST up reply actions  

How about the Declaration of Independence?

We holdz deze troofs to be troo:
I can haz cheezburger.
Big Kitteh in Englandz be takin mah cheezburger.
I iz getting mah own cheezburgerz now.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Nov 24, 2010 12:29 PM PST up reply actions   3 recs

I feel like my heart just got cancer of the anus.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 24, 2010 12:40 PM PST up reply actions  

I feel like David Crosby's liver.

You two are lucky.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 24, 2010 5:00 PM PST up reply actions  

Almost as good as the LOLCat bible.

Oh hai. In teh beginnin Ceiling Cat maded teh skiez An da Urfs, but he did not eated dem.

Da Urfs no had shapez An haded dark face, An Ceiling Cat rode invisible bike over teh waterz.

At start, no has lyte. An Ceiling Cat sayz, i can haz lite? An lite wuz. An Ceiling Cat sawed teh lite, to seez stuffs, An splitted teh lite from dark but taht wuz ok cuz kittehs can see in teh dark An not tripz over nethin.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Nov 24, 2010 12:42 PM PST up reply actions  

actually, Deuteronomy 1 is funnier.
Ceiling Cat sez GTFO Horeb

1 oh hai I is deutronomy and this is transcripshin of words mozes sed to ppl in the desert. k here they are:2 first I tells u it is 11 days to go from horeb to kadesh cuz of sum montins. 4 sum reson u shud no this. k, now start 4 real:


3 On november 1st, 40, mozes was transl8n 4 ceiling cat, cuz ceiling cat wuz tellin ppl what 2 do4 k wait i forgot 2 tell u, but this is after mozes killed some kings that were making him angry. k, no moar intrupshins:

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Nov 24, 2010 12:55 PM PST up reply actions  

You write some funny shit sometimes

But this is by far the most hilarious

I have NO rooting interest. It simply become[s] a process of elimination of who I dislike less. - 67MARQUEZ
!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam

by cuppingmaster on Nov 24, 2010 12:49 PM PST up reply actions  

It was pretty awesome.

Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples

Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.

If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.

by DMOAS on Nov 24, 2010 1:37 PM PST up reply actions  

I would agree that there is no correct way of writing

If writing is just a way to communicate, then the only important thing is that your message was received and understood.

There is most definately an educated way of writing, and I’m not even necessarily referring to college level papers. When writing perpetuates willful ignorance I consider it uneducated writing.

(For the record, I do not claim to be a well-educated writer, but I am trying to improve.)

"Juuuuust a bit outside" - Harry Doyle

by ArunisArun on Nov 24, 2010 12:09 PM PST up reply actions  

Just because you claim something is uneducated doesn't make it so. The same thing may be considered educated by others.

It is what our common cultural ties say it is. Those cultural ties are subjective and change.

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Nov 24, 2010 2:45 PM PST up reply actions  

But in the moment, they are what they are.

And as of right now, there are manners of writing which are reflective of varying degrees of education. The correlation may not be absolute, but you won’t find too many high school dropouts saying “viz.,” or “colorable,” or “eschew.”

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 24, 2010 3:07 PM PST up reply actions  

This is an elitist point of view in my mind

One of the most intellectual people in modern American society is President Obama. Does this mean that he has a higher degree of education than George W. Bush or Harry Reid? No, i just means that he is able to speak what he says in a way that it sounds intellectual. George W. Bush often “raped” the English language in his speeches, however, he has a higher education. Additionally, i would say that King James is an extremely intelligent individual that does not have a higer education degree.

"He who lives on hope will die fasting" Benjamin Franklin was a fool

"If we are thinking playoffs, why not look towards the mountaintop"

I like my quote better

by nocal81(Vincent) on Nov 24, 2010 3:26 PM PST up reply actions  

It's an elitist point of view because I'm an elitist.

Also, do you mean King James, the guy who rewrote the Bible and was a king, or do you mean LeBron James? This is not me being a dick; I honestly am not sure.

By the way, I wonder when DFA will be calling you out for your misuse of the word “raped.”

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 24, 2010 3:44 PM PST up reply actions  

Not sure it was DFA who really reacted to the word

But yeah, not a good move to use it.

Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples

Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.

If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.

by DMOAS on Nov 24, 2010 3:45 PM PST up reply actions  

"Raped" is a metaphor as i believe you well know

And, i was speaking of LeBron.

"He who lives on hope will die fasting" Benjamin Franklin was a fool

"If we are thinking playoffs, why not look towards the mountaintop"

I like my quote better

by nocal81(Vincent) on Nov 24, 2010 3:46 PM PST up reply actions  

"Raped" is a verb

“Trevor Cahill is a horse” is a metaphor

Fantasy Sports Columnist for Big Cat Country

Follow me on Twitter!

by CaliforniaJag on Nov 25, 2010 12:58 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Don't use the word rape like that. Its not cool.

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Nov 24, 2010 3:48 PM PST up reply actions  

It is a recently coined term

I am sorry for using it in this context, and if it offended people

"He who lives on hope will die fasting" Benjamin Franklin was a fool

"If we are thinking playoffs, why not look towards the mountaintop"

I like my quote better

by nocal81(Vincent) on Nov 24, 2010 4:04 PM PST up reply actions  

Actually, it's a very old term.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 24, 2010 4:55 PM PST up reply actions  

Used in that context?

And by old, what do you mean?

"He who lives on hope will die fasting" Benjamin Franklin was a fool

"If we are thinking playoffs, why not look towards the mountaintop"

I like my quote better

by nocal81(Vincent) on Nov 24, 2010 4:55 PM PST up reply actions  

You said the term was recently coined.

It was coined a very long time ago.

Even the use of it in that kind of context isn’t that new. Probably centuries old at this point. It just went out of fashion, but it was always pretty insensitive.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 24, 2010 5:05 PM PST up reply actions  

Seriously

“Probably centuries old”? When some tries to deny an argument with a negative it is usually up to them to back it up with sources.

"He who lives on hope will die fasting" Benjamin Franklin was a fool

"If we are thinking playoffs, why not look towards the mountaintop"

I like my quote better

by nocal81(Vincent) on Nov 24, 2010 5:07 PM PST up reply actions  

Wow, you're really taking this very seriously.

The etymological sources I’m looking at disagree, but it first appears as a synonym for “abuse” between 1250 and 1420.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 24, 2010 5:15 PM PST up reply actions  

Not too seriously

Just attempting to have you back the fallacy argument that we have argued about today. Either way, you are probably correct in that assumption. Regardless, i believe this term used in the context that i used it is relatively new.

"He who lives on hope will die fasting" Benjamin Franklin was a fool

"If we are thinking playoffs, why not look towards the mountaintop"

I like my quote better

by nocal81(Vincent) on Nov 24, 2010 5:53 PM PST up reply actions  

Only if "between 1250 and 1420" is relatively new.

It’s even possible that this use of the word is older than the one for which the word has become more well-known.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 24, 2010 7:43 PM PST up reply actions  

What is your source for this?

All my sources say the primary meaning is to seize or take away by force. The specific and semi-symbolic sense in which what is being taken away is a woman’s virtue is occasional throughout the word’s history, but not primary till much much later, and I don’t get how you’re equating it with “abuse” at all.

Also, I’m not seeing any cite for the word in English at all before late 14th century.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Nov 24, 2010 8:35 PM PST up reply actions  

That’s about how well I did chucking pumpkins, oh well….

by brian.only on Nov 24, 2010 8:57 PM PST up reply actions  

This is incorrect.

Centuries ago, it not only didn’t have the slang connotation nocal uses above, it didn’t even imply the crime of violent forcible sex that is the primary connotation today. That meaning did not become dominant until the late 1950s.

A good illustration of that is the “rape” song in the musical The Fantasticks. The main lyric from that song (like much of the lyrics from the musical) is drawn directly from an English adaptation of Rostand’s Romanesques, written in 1900 by an English author calling herself George Fleming.

When the musical was written in 1960, the “literary” sense of the word was old-fashioned but still not offensive like it is today or they never would have had those lyrics. Later editions of the musical interpolated explanatory dialogue to put the song in context, and in 1990 an alternate song was written to replace it.

Centuries ago, the primary meaning of “rape” was to abduct and/or carry off, which might or might not entail rape in the sense we know it today.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Nov 24, 2010 6:13 PM PST up reply actions  

Wow.

Then you could say that convincing people you were raped by aliens is a difficult schtick to rape.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 24, 2010 7:26 PM PST up reply actions  

No evolving language here, I see.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 24, 2010 4:54 PM PST up reply actions  

Is this true?

I thought Bush had an MBA and President Obama had a JD: isn’t the JD a higher level of educational attainment?

by LowcountryJoe on Nov 24, 2010 4:58 PM PST via mobile up reply actions  

That is the point i was attempting to make

You cannot really tell which one has a higher level of education by listening what they say, or reading what they wrote.

Just because Obama sounds more “intelligent” when speaking doesn’t mean that he has a higher level of education.

"He who lives on hope will die fasting" Benjamin Franklin was a fool

"If we are thinking playoffs, why not look towards the mountaintop"

I like my quote better

by nocal81(Vincent) on Nov 24, 2010 5:00 PM PST up reply actions  

So...that's NOT the point you were attempting to make.

At any rate, when I talk about education, I’m not necessarily talking about formal higher education. There are a lot of ways to be educated.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 24, 2010 5:06 PM PST up reply actions  

Yes, although calling a law degree a doctorate is basically propagandistic nonsense

Partly because it’s not, it’s a slightly tougher master’s degree, and partly because there are actual doctorate programs in law which consequently have no good term to use to describe themselves.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Nov 24, 2010 6:01 PM PST up reply actions  

There is a ton wrong with this argument.

YOU may think that the style is reflective of education; that doesn’t make it so. I have a higher level of education than Iglew, and I don’t think that anyone is stupid enough to think that he doesn’t have a superior vocabulary and more writing proficiency than I do. Furthermore, writing rule are only something that are what they are because you make them that way. I do not follow many writing “rules” out of choice and I would not say that the author is writing in an uneducated, inferior, or incorrect way because I do not subscribe to the rules that you want to. I am much more willing to look down on people for not using advanced metrics than grammar or spelling. You choose to look down on people for what you will, that doesn’t make it wrong.

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Nov 24, 2010 3:34 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah, I want it back. It should have said...

“reflective of varying degrees of education about the English language.”

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 24, 2010 3:41 PM PST up reply actions  

Thats not accurate either. I know plenty about how to write "well". I choose not to.

I have plenty of "education about the English language."

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Nov 24, 2010 3:50 PM PST up reply actions  

When writing perpetuates willful ignorance I consider it uneducated writing.

You can decide to do this, but clearly ArunisArun does not. I would guess that he is not alone in preferring to write in “proper” English where possible.

by jali on Nov 24, 2010 4:42 PM PST up reply actions  

And I said the correlation is not absolute.

Just because a few people have decided that an entire branch of academics is dumb because it would mean they’d have to think when they write, that doesn’t mean that poor writing isn’t generally reflective of education level w/r/t English.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 24, 2010 4:56 PM PST up reply actions  

Agreed

If we wants to get into the philosophical terms of “educated” grammar, and correct spelling. Maybe he may want to look at this

He is committing the fallacy of hasty generalization and ambiguity, but also the most common known to people that attempt to sound educated, yet remain ignorant. That is circular reasoning, which means that his proposition makes the very same point that the conclusion is attempting to make

"He who lives on hope will die fasting" Benjamin Franklin was a fool

"If we are thinking playoffs, why not look towards the mountaintop"

I like my quote better

by nocal81(Vincent) on Nov 24, 2010 12:10 PM PST up reply actions  

Actually, circular reasoning is your second paragraph there.

Other logical fallacies present in your responses: Fallacist’s Fallacy, Subjectivist Fallacy, Straw Man Fallacy, and possibly Hasty Generalization.

The logical fallacy that I committed is known as the Appeal to Tradition or Antiquity, a specific kind of Irrelevant Appeal. However, aside from that second paragraph, nothing else in that comment would even be subject to logical criticism, because it is not argumentation. It is a value statement pertaining to why I find lazy spelling and grammar repugnant (namely, because I feel they contribute to a culture of anti-intellectualism.)

It could also be argued that I committed a False Bifurcation or a False Dichotomy, setting up a black-and-white dynamic where there shouldn’t be one. However, I would argue that my bifurcation is not false, that there is a difference between correct forms and incorrect forms, and that to argue that I committed a False Bifurcation is in fact a Straw Man Fallacy and possibly a Hasty Generalization Fallacy, because it ascribes to me the viewpoint that there is only one correct way and all else is incorrect.

And the composition of the following sentence is confusing: “He is committing the fallacy of hasty generalization and ambiguity, but also the most common known to people that attempt to sound educated, yet remain ignorant.”

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 24, 2010 1:13 PM PST up reply actions  

Did i state that i didn’t commit a fallace? No, i just pointed out that you did. Considering that you are the individual that is attempting to make a point in regards to format/structure etc… I think that you should be more conscience of your fallacies as well

"He who lives on hope will die fasting" Benjamin Franklin was a fool

"If we are thinking playoffs, why not look towards the mountaintop"

I like my quote better

by nocal81(Vincent) on Nov 24, 2010 2:23 PM PST up reply actions  

I was just talking about language.

And by the way, if I was asserting my superiority, would I really be including the logical fallacies that I’ve committed in my comments? Would I even be conscious of them?

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 24, 2010 2:36 PM PST up reply actions  

Good point

That is an error on my part!

"He who lives on hope will die fasting" Benjamin Franklin was a fool

"If we are thinking playoffs, why not look towards the mountaintop"

I like my quote better

by nocal81(Vincent) on Nov 24, 2010 3:22 PM PST up reply actions  

I think you'd really be pretty hard-pressed to find a single movement or subculture in post-agrarian human history that was expressly against the advancement of understanding, learning, and knowledge.

Definitions may differ on what those concepts mean, but they have always been held in high regard. No one ever crowned himself King Stephen the Stupid.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 24, 2010 12:38 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah because Galileo wasn't forced to recant his scientific findings and spend the rest of his life under house arrest from the Spanish Inquisition.

Cue unsurprising Spanish Inquisition reference. Oh you don’t like it when I take away your chief weapon do you!

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Nov 24, 2010 2:50 PM PST up reply actions  

And I quote (myself): "Definitions may differ on what those concepts mean"

At the time, Galileo’s findings were considered to be as moronic and dumb as saying the sky is made of plastic would be today. I never said everyone in human history has been correct; I said they have been in favor of the pursuit of knowledge. Sometimes (most of the time) they have screwed it up, but it’s only recently that you actually find significant numbers of people who actually distrust expertise and erudition, who proudly proclaim themselves to be “rednecks” (which used to be one of the worst things you could say to a guy), etc., etc.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 24, 2010 3:10 PM PST up reply actions  

Well global warming/evolution is moronic and dumb as saying the sky is made of plastic to some.

Your exclusion is a logical fallacy by ignoring all the cases where your statement has been proven unture.

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Nov 24, 2010 3:35 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm not communicating my point very well.

People disagreed with Galileo because of what the experts said. Today they disagree with science because they don’t trust the experts.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 24, 2010 3:46 PM PST up reply actions  

You aren't communicating it well because your point is incorrect so there is not possible way to communicate it that would make it correct.

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Nov 24, 2010 3:51 PM PST up reply actions  

This isn't a policy debate round, DFA. Nothing is. High school is over.

I see now that I’m communicating my point just fine, and you’re bringing all your sophistry , which I don’t appreciate it. There’s no judge to give you speaker points for selecting extreme elements of an opponent’s argument and highlighting them, or for painting someone into a rhetorical corner.

I find poor writing to be repugnant, and I think it’s reflective of a general disdain toward expertise that has developed in the culture. And as a student of history, I have never been shown any evidence of a society that did not value erudition, except for some major elements of the society we live in today.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 24, 2010 5:00 PM PST up reply actions  

Youre right! Scopes wasn't found guilty!

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Nov 24, 2010 7:19 PM PST up reply actions  

I'll try this one more time.

Believing in experts who are wrong isn’t the same thing as not believing in experts. Just because people used to think phrenology was a real science doesn’t mean they were anti-science. Just because people used to think evolution was a criminal belief doesn’t mean they were anti-biology.

Looking forward to your response more geared toward winning a debate round you’re not in than toward having a conversation between two human beings.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 24, 2010 7:46 PM PST up reply actions  

No

They disagree with science because they choose to ignore common knowledge in regards to the subject. Additionally, they ignore what occurred on Mars and Venus that enabled those planets to become over populated with Carbon Dioxide, therefore, uninhabitable.

Additionally, Galileo was oppressed because the Catholic Church refused to accept the fact that the universe didn’t revolve around Earth. In fact, many leading scientists of the time quitely backed him, but were to afraid to public support the findings due to Catholic oppression

"He who lives on hope will die fasting" Benjamin Franklin was a fool

"If we are thinking playoffs, why not look towards the mountaintop"

I like my quote better

by nocal81(Vincent) on Nov 24, 2010 4:11 PM PST up reply actions  

And?

I’m not seeing how your comment is in opposition to mine. Your first paragraph simply expands upon my point, and your second paragraph establishes nothing. It doesn’t matter what other scientists thought in private; what the men who were considered the leading thinkers of the time said in public was that Galileo was a fraud. And the people believed it.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 24, 2010 5:02 PM PST up reply actions  

Despite What you said

The Antebellum Era and the Enligtenment of the 19th century represented a gross miscalculation of the English language. Leaders of that time, both religious and secular, refrained from using proper English in order to communicate to a society that was attempting to become more educated. These intellectuals were much more profound when using a trimmed down version of proper English in communicating with the masses. If you were to read their original speeches and texts, then you would understand exactly what i am talking about

"He who lives on hope will die fasting" Benjamin Franklin was a fool

"If we are thinking playoffs, why not look towards the mountaintop"

I like my quote better

by nocal81(Vincent) on Nov 24, 2010 1:01 PM PST up reply actions  

There have always been multiple styles within the language.

I think you’ll find, however, that the English being used, whatever its specific syntax, grammar, and spelling, held to internal rules. The meaning of the words “at nausea” does not mean anything that would make it appropriate in the context in which it was used here.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 24, 2010 1:16 PM PST up reply actions  

But wouldn't the change from "ad" to "at" in this case

Represent only a change in definition, not meaning? Serious question. “at” implies you’ve reached “nausea” so you’ve become sick of the discussion. While when using it, you’re not actually using the Latin phrase (that may have been intended), but you are using a phrase that’s meaning in a literal sense is still both clear and contextually correct.

Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples

Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.

If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.

by DMOAS on Nov 24, 2010 1:45 PM PST up reply actions  

Actually, it implies that the discussion has ALWAYS made us nauseous.

So I overstated the case against its use here by a small amount, but it still doesn’t make sense.

“We have talked at nausea about the A’s lack of hitting in 2010.” Unless he was trying to make a funny about the A’s offense being nauseating—which I don’t believe he was—it isn’t quite what he was going for, and I’m not quite sure how it spiraled into a tense debate when all I did was correct him.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 24, 2010 1:58 PM PST up reply actions  

Oh, I'm not saying you're wrong or anything

Which is why i added the “that may have been intended” since it’s exceptionally rare for someone to intend to actually say “at nausea.” I’m just saying there’s a literal sense that still technically has meaning and technically fits most of the circumstances. But if you’re going to use that, it really does have to be intentionally separate from the Latin phrase.

Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples

Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.

If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.

by DMOAS on Nov 24, 2010 2:11 PM PST up reply actions  

The literal meaning is that we have talked "at a place of nausea"

Perhaps if the discussion had been held over a pile of vomit, it would make literal sense.

“ad nauseam” is more literally translated as “to the point of nausea” or “to such an extent that everyone is sick of it”.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Nov 24, 2010 2:54 PM PST up reply actions  

Right.

But “at a place” can have a more metaphysical meaning, however, of “we’ve reached nausea.”

Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples

Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.

If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.

by DMOAS on Nov 24, 2010 2:59 PM PST up reply actions  

Its called agreeing to disagree

I am not sure if your one of those intellectual type Professors i see on campus all the time, that like to hear themselves talk. But, i do not believe that the language adapted in pre Civil War American was held to “internal” rules as you put it.

In fact, my English Professor, who majored in early American literature, would tend to disagree with you. This is why we have MLA (Modern Language Association). If your points were true then either modern English is incorrect, or colonial English language was incorrect.

"He who lives on hope will die fasting" Benjamin Franklin was a fool

"If we are thinking playoffs, why not look towards the mountaintop"

I like my quote better

by nocal81(Vincent) on Nov 24, 2010 2:04 PM PST up reply actions  

It did not hold to internal rules?

You could just walk up to a guy and say, “Goodfloppin! Drappo teacorner flagenheimel”?

If your points were true then either modern English is incorrect, or colonial English language was incorrect.

Not at all. Language evolves. However, I’ll direct you to the response I’ve already outlined regarding this concern: “We live in a time in which information and education is more readily available than ever. The ‘evolution’ of language is now no longer a function of the inevitable ignorance brought on by decentralized societies of people prevented from learning by significant systemic barriers, but a function instead of willful ignorance.”

I am not a professor. I am 24. However, the following sentence pretty much drove home the entire point I’ve been trying to make about people who don’t care to follow the rules of the language:

I am not sure if your one of those intellectual type Professors i see on campus all the time, that like to hear themselves talk.
Check it out, as it happens, you don’t think very highly of intellectuals, professors, or people that like to articulate their positions completely. Who could have guessed?

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 24, 2010 2:10 PM PST up reply actions  

Again assuming to know something about me

Have you been in college? If you have, then you would know what i am talking about. Those who project themselves in a manner that attempts to question the intelligence of another.

I have absolutely against intellectuals, however, i do believe that those who interpret a blog post as anything more is just reaching for something that isn’t there.

"He who lives on hope will die fasting" Benjamin Franklin was a fool

"If we are thinking playoffs, why not look towards the mountaintop"

I like my quote better

by nocal81(Vincent) on Nov 24, 2010 2:15 PM PST up reply actions  

I've been to college but I don't know what "I have absolutely against intellectuals" means...

Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples

Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.

If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.

by DMOAS on Nov 24, 2010 2:20 PM PST up reply actions  

I Meant I Have Absolutely Nothing Against Intellectuals

"He who lives on hope will die fasting" Benjamin Franklin was a fool

"If we are thinking playoffs, why not look towards the mountaintop"

I like my quote better

by nocal81(Vincent) on Nov 24, 2010 2:27 PM PST up reply actions  

LOL

Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples

Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.

If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.

by DMOAS on Nov 24, 2010 2:34 PM PST up reply actions  

We know.

We were just goofing.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 24, 2010 2:37 PM PST up reply actions  

It's not an assumption if it's just a rephrasing of what you said.
Have you been in college?

It would be shocking for a 24-year-old with a hard-on for knowledge to not have gone to college, I would think.

If you have, then you would know what i am talking about.

Another logical fallacy; I’ve been around a lot of academics and I’m afraid I haven’t met too many of these pompous, self-absorbed Ichabods among them. I think it’s because I don’t live in a 90s movie about going to college.

Those who project themselves in a manner that attempts to question the intelligence of another.

Those people don’t just live on your campus. They are everywhere. They’re called “about 65% of the populace.” In all likelihood, the professors you seem to dislike so much just happen to know more than you about something (which is why they’re professors in that subject) and aren’t shy about discussing it with you. Those are the best people to hang out with, because you’re always learning.

however, i do believe that those who interpret a blog post as anything more is just reaching for something that isn’t there.

I just corrected your spelling. It’s not like I said you’re a Stalinist.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 24, 2010 2:25 PM PST up reply actions  

Once Again

i never said that i didn’t commit any fallacies. I was just pointing out that if you are going to question someone else, you better make darn clear that you are not arguing in favor of a presupposition

In fact, most debates are loaded with fallacies.

"He who lives on hope will die fasting" Benjamin Franklin was a fool

"If we are thinking playoffs, why not look towards the mountaintop"

I like my quote better

by nocal81(Vincent) on Nov 24, 2010 2:29 PM PST up reply actions  

I Wasn't Specifically Speaking

about that one. It is other comments that you made.

"He who lives on hope will die fasting" Benjamin Franklin was a fool

"If we are thinking playoffs, why not look towards the mountaintop"

I like my quote better

by nocal81(Vincent) on Nov 24, 2010 3:18 PM PST up reply actions  

That's me 20 years ago.
It would be shocking for a 24-year-old with a hard-on for knowledge to not have gone to college, I would think.

It’s even less shocking now, given the increase in information technology.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Nov 24, 2010 4:12 PM PST up reply actions  

Not really

Deciding not to go to college today is, basically, stupid. Like it or not, it’s the only game in town.

There aren’t that many people who are simultaneously both highly erudite and idiotically shortsighted.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Nov 24, 2010 6:05 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah, we disagree on your first sentence.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Nov 24, 2010 8:38 PM PST up reply actions  

To use a somewhat familiar baseball analogy,

deliberately choosing not to go to college is like deliberately signing Michael Tucker so that you can save money by not having a first-round draft pick.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Nov 25, 2010 1:06 AM PST up reply actions  

A hard-on for knowledge?

Is that what leads to “raping” the English language?

“If you still maintain an erection after four hours of fallacy arguments, please consult your professor.”

Fantasy Sports Columnist for Big Cat Country

Follow me on Twitter!

by CaliforniaJag on Nov 25, 2010 1:03 AM PST up reply actions  

But you don't have to use correct writing to communicate

Cept peoples b sharin w/o good writing

"Juuuuust a bit outside" - Harry Doyle

by ArunisArun on Nov 24, 2010 1:04 PM PST up reply actions  

Really?

Tell that to Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson. Has anyone here read “The Age of Reasoning”? If you have, then you know exactly what i am talking about.

"He who lives on hope will die fasting" Benjamin Franklin was a fool

"If we are thinking playoffs, why not look towards the mountaintop"

I like my quote better

by nocal81(Vincent) on Nov 24, 2010 1:09 PM PST up reply actions  

Nobody has read The Age of Reasoning, because according to a quick Google search, it doesn't exist.

I believe you’re referring to Thomas Paine’s The Age of Reason.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 24, 2010 1:17 PM PST up reply actions  

You would be correct

and have you read it?

"He who lives on hope will die fasting" Benjamin Franklin was a fool

"If we are thinking playoffs, why not look towards the mountaintop"

I like my quote better

by nocal81(Vincent) on Nov 24, 2010 1:59 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm a huge fan of most of his work.

So yes.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 24, 2010 2:10 PM PST up reply actions  

Whic one do you like better?

“Common Sense” or “Age of Reason”? Personally, i like Age of Reason better. It was a prelude to the Deist movement, and represents one of the best literary works in history.

"He who lives on hope will die fasting" Benjamin Franklin was a fool

"If we are thinking playoffs, why not look towards the mountaintop"

I like my quote better

by nocal81(Vincent) on Nov 24, 2010 3:20 PM PST up reply actions  

Common Sense.

I don’t care for Deism and love socialism.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 24, 2010 3:46 PM PST up reply actions  

I love socialism, too!

As long as it’s a voluntary arrangement.

by LowcountryJoe on Nov 24, 2010 8:24 PM PST via mobile up reply actions  

At the state level, sure; why not?

As long as you’d be okay if the majority of the country’s voters voted for minarchism.

by LowcountryJoe on Nov 25, 2010 4:52 AM PST via mobile up reply actions  

Why not the federal level? Do voters not have the right to determine the direction of the federal government?

As for minarchism, sure; I’d just move to Europe if US voters decided they wanted to opt for a system guaranteed to be overrun either by external agressors or internal military despots.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 25, 2010 9:41 AM PST up reply actions  

if you could get everything you wanted in government at the state level...

…then why would you even want to move? Gun rights and tight-knit communities can keep out many aggressors…but I’m not so sure internal despots are easily recognizable [heck, it seems that some people welcome that sort of type without realizing it].

by LowcountryJoe on Nov 25, 2010 10:53 AM PST up reply actions  

Why would I want to move?

Because I believe in a strong government. If I wanted to live in the Wild West, I’d build a time machine and move there.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 25, 2010 12:15 PM PST up reply actions  

Huh

Interesting.

You should read my senior thesis.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Nov 25, 2010 1:07 AM PST up reply actions  

Of course, then he'd have to read a senior thesis.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 25, 2010 9:38 AM PST up reply actions  

Not that I'm aware of, sadly

I have most of it on my laptop but I seem to be missing the first chapter for some weird reason. I’ll look around for it.

The conclusion that I came to was more or less that the startup costs of a voluntary-socialist system are too high (at least given the US property framework) for anyone but people who are already rich, which kind of defeats the purpose.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Nov 25, 2010 10:52 AM PST up reply actions  

They have a FINISHING SCHOOL.

I’m guessing they fall under the category of “already rich, which kind of defeats the purpose” from PT’s comment.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 25, 2010 12:17 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't follow the logic

If socialism really works, wealth can be created and then disbursed amongst the participants, right? But if you’re saying that socialists require start-up money, surly there’s someone with ideological sympathies that will make a donation.

by LowcountryJoe on Nov 25, 2010 2:03 PM PST via mobile up reply actions  

Why would it be so difficult to attract people with resourses?

Explain, please. Could it be that they’re painfully aware of how much they’re despised by those without as many resources? Bitterness and envy don’t make for sound marketing principles when establishing a community — however large a community it is.

by LowcountryJoe on Nov 26, 2010 7:35 AM PST up reply actions  

Huh? Who said it's difficult?

Keep telling yourself that the only reason the rich are resented is because of bitterness and envy; it fits your narrative that poor people suck.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 26, 2010 8:13 AM PST up reply actions  

You wrote that the start-up costs are too high.

Can you explain that remark while also defending that it’s not difficult to attract people with capital?

it fits your narrative that poor people suck.

I never, ever wrote or said that and I certainly don’t believe it, so I don’t know how you’ve made that connection. However, you actually have wrote things that pinpoint your resentment of the wealthy.

by LowcountryJoe on Nov 26, 2010 1:32 PM PST up reply actions  

Actually, PT wrote that.

But I can reconcile the two points easily.

Idea A: Startup costs are too high without wealthy people.

Idea B: It’s not hard to find wealthy people who are sympathetic to socialism.

I don’t see how they conflict. In fact, they complement quite well.

However, you actually have wrote things that pinpoint your resentment of the wealthy.

“Have written” was the term you were looking for, and don’t be silly. I resent wealthy people who think they deserve their money.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 26, 2010 1:48 PM PST up reply actions  

My fault

So, do you agree or disgaree with PT about voluntary socialistic communities start-up costs being to high?

I resent wealthy people who think they deserve their money.

Why shouldn’t they? Didn’t they earn it or have it handed down to them from parents? Who else deserves it, the state?

by LowcountryJoe on Nov 26, 2010 2:44 PM PST up reply actions  

No worries
So, do you agree or disgaree with PT about voluntary socialistic communities start-up costs being to high?

I haven’t done the work he did, so this is just a guess, but I would assume that start-up costs would be too high without initial financial backing, because you’re essentially creating a private government.

Why shouldn’t they? Didn’t they earn it or have it handed down to them from parents? Who else deserves it, the state?

Based on my moral calculus, nobody deserves to be super-wealthy. Affluence is all well and good, and impossible to stamp out anyway; but the degree of the gap between the rich and the poor, which is not due to a commensurate gap between the hard-working and the lazy but rather to a commensurate gap between the initially privileged and the initially underprivileged, is unacceptable to me.

My final decision can be boiled down thusly: if there is an object that nobody needs, I don’t care who has it. If there is an object some people need and some people don’t, the people who need it should get it. If there is an object that everyone needs, then it should be split among everyone.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 26, 2010 4:34 PM PST up reply actions  

...
I haven’t done the work he did, so this is just a guess, but I would assume that start-up costs would be too high without initial financial backing, because you’re essentially creating a private government.

My guess is that the community wouldn’t be able to begin and thrive with a necessary diveristy of skills. Even the most ardent socialists likely cannot shake their self interests. Highly skilled and normally highly compenasted professionals are going to want more than an equal slice of the pie. They’ll get the larger slice too because they’ll insert themselves into the governing body of the group.

…but the degree of the gap between the rich and the poor, which is not due to a commensurate gap between the hard-working and the lazy but rather to a commensurate gap between the initially privileged and the initially underprivileged…

Skills, knowledge, ability, and desire have been the traditional determinants of outcome. The priviledged generally earn those priviledges during their lifetimes.

If there is an object that everyone needs, then it should be split among everyone.

I think there are very few things that can be included in this catagory. We’ll probably differ as to what those things are but my list of true needs would be food, clothing, and place to crash at night, bathe, and wash one’s clothing; education is something I would add even though it is not a true need [I would think that you’d include healthcare and possibly other things to your list]. The problem with my list is how does government step in and determine the amount of housing, clothing, energy, and food one needs? The amount of these things cannot possibly be distributed equally throughout a society. Nor, in my opinion, should they be distributed equally.

by LowcountryJoe on Nov 27, 2010 5:24 AM PST up reply actions  

...
Highly skilled and normally highly compenasted professionals are going to want more than an equal slice of the pie. They’ll get the larger slice too because they’ll insert themselves into the governing body of the group.

Yet another reason it makes more sense as a government enterprise than as a private one.

Skills, knowledge, ability, and desire have been the traditional determinants of outcome. The priviledged generally earn those priviledges during their lifetimes.

This simply isn’t correct. There’s so little class mobility in this society it’s ridiculous. You’re born middle-class, you stay middle-class. The middle class is privilege; it’s almost impossible to actually lose that privilege. “Earning” doesn’t come into it.

The problem with my list is how does government step in and determine the amount of housing, clothing, energy, and food one needs? The amount of these things cannot possibly be distributed equally throughout a society.

It’s actually not that difficult. There are formulas for this sort of thing. And contrary to the beliefs of most hippies and well-intentioned lefties, there’s more than enough for everybody, particularly with advancements in genetically-modified crops. You guarantee a baseline for all people, from which any person can then begin the tasks of building his or her own life, and whatever is extra, then fine, the wealthy can have that, since you’re so keen on them having as much as they want.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 27, 2010 3:33 PM PST up reply actions  

...
This simply isn’t correct.

I do not agree. I think that there’s much mobility; especially generational mobility.

It’s actually not that difficult.

That’s the Fatal Conceit

How are already built homes distributed equitabily when they exist in various sizes and in neighborhoods of vastly different qualities?

“The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.” ~ Friedrich von Hayek

by LowcountryJoe on Nov 27, 2010 4:50 PM PST up reply actions  

...
I think that there’s much mobility

There is no indication that this is true, though.

That’s the Fatal Conceit

It’s funny to me that The Fatal Conceit, while failing to really make its point about the so-called fatal conceit of socialism (he really makes no new argument against it), actually has a very glaring fatal conceit of its own: the idea that because society naturally evolved to its modern state, its modern state is desirable and not only should not be changed, but cannot. There’s no reason to believe that, because seismic cultural shifts can, do, and have happened.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 28, 2010 1:57 AM PST up reply actions  

This does not follow

Any cause which requires money is theoretically plausible given enough rich benefactors. That doesn’t mean that you can achieve anything you want to by just asking please to enough rich people.

Rich people tend to not actually give their money away all that readily. They are also, both for ideological and self-interested reasons, disproportionately right-leaning. It’s not a solution.

Finally, assuming that your goal is to get a return on investment and not to simply become a charity case (which was the goal of the colony that I studied), the possibility of funding the enterprise through donations is unattractive.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Nov 26, 2010 8:37 PM PST up reply actions  

...
Rich people tend to not actually give their money away all that readily.

There are plenty of wealthy self-described socialists/communists. As I see it, their focus is on influencing policy and having people like them rather than just pouring their money into getting community start-ups like the kind we’ve discussed. Since I don’t support what these people do, I see their inaction as very wasteful.

They are also, both for ideological and self-interested reasons, disproportionately right-leaning.

How disproportionate would you say? Because I think the numbers are probably much closer to even than you believe that they are. By people, you could be correct. By actual net wealth, I think the Left-leaners actually have an equal amount of it.

Finally, assuming that your goal is to get a return on investment and not to simply become a charity case (which was the goal of the colony that I studied), the possibility of funding the enterprise through donations is unattractive.

Makes you wonder why a self-descricbed true socialists would require a return on investment. Why wouldn’t they just call it a self-impossed tax on themselves to promote equality? Me thinks that there’s not too many real socialists out there when push come to shove. I hope that when you become wealthy, Paul, you’ll give back and make sure the money goes directly to people who need it and not to the politicians who squander it.

by LowcountryJoe on Nov 27, 2010 5:39 AM PST up reply actions  

Sure

There are plenty of wealthy self-described socialists/communists.

Really. I’m not aware of any in the United States. I literally cannot think of a single self-described American socialist with a known net worth in excess of a few million dollars. (Europe is a different story, of course.) If they’re out there, they’re not exactly making themselves widely known. The highest profile socialist I’m aware of in the US is Bernie Sanders, a small-state senator of below-average influence.

By actual net wealth, I think the Left-leaners actually have an equal amount of it.

There are a handful of liberal-ish super-duper-wealthy guys like Bill Gates and Warren Buffett who skew those numbers. (And I really don’t see them deciding to donate a few billion to experimental-socialist schemes.) The “merely very rich,” i.e. those with assets between about $1M and $10M, representing the huge majority of those with assets over $1M, are extremely right-wing.

The direct correlation between wealth and conservatism only breaks once you reach such a level of wealth that it’s almost inconceivable that any combination of events, including a complete revolution in the United States, could ever render you not rich.

Makes you wonder why a self-descricbed true socialists would require a return on investment. Why wouldn’t they just call it a self-impossed tax on themselves to promote equality?

Two reasons.

1. The stated purpose of Llano del Rio, the colony I studied, was to attempt to create a socialist commune which was simultaneously, to the eyes of the corporate legal structure, a functioning and profitable corporation. (They didn’t achieve that, but let’s be fair to them— the vast majority of all corporations fail in the US.) It’s not the donors’ wishes which were the problem, it’s the recipients’. They had no interest in becoming the early-20th-century equivalent of welfare dependents.

The colony did get some donations, though not nearly enough to keep it going indefinitely, but even in the worst times (during the Depression, in particular) they accepted donations on the theory that they would string the colony along until better times, rather than
as a regular practice.

2. Supporting the colony with donations would not have even notionally “promoted equality” because the colonists were overwhelmingly lower-middle to upper-middle class, at a time when probably ~60% of America was sub-middle-class. A benevolent wealthy socialist would be better served donating to, for example, relief organizations for needy children.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Nov 28, 2010 5:45 PM PST up reply actions  

I will read it

"Juuuuust a bit outside" - Harry Doyle

by ArunisArun on Nov 24, 2010 1:50 PM PST up reply actions  

Princeton University Definition of Nitpicker

Someone who makes small and unjustified criticisms

"He who lives on hope will die fasting" Benjamin Franklin was a fool

"If we are thinking playoffs, why not look towards the mountaintop"

I like my quote better

by nocal81(Vincent) on Nov 24, 2010 9:30 AM PST up reply actions  

The Webster's definitions of "small" and "justify"

The appropriate definition of “small” in this context is the second one: “minor in influence, power, or rank.” In this case, we would focus on “minor in influence.” Since I was hardly the only one to notice the mistake, it was not “minor in influence.”

We’ll go with the first definition of “justify,” as the others relate to legal systems and typography: “to prove or show to be just, right, or reasonable.” Since justice and philosophy don’t come into this particular discussion, we’ll focus on “to prove or show to be right.” And my correction of your mistake was certainly correct, so it was not “unjustified.”

Additionally, the word “nitpicker” should not begin with a capital letter unless it is the first word of a sentence, since it is not a proper noun.

Try again.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 24, 2010 11:00 AM PST up reply actions  

Just because you were the only one to notice the mistake doesn't mean the mistake was of consequence, since everyone knew what the OP meant

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Nov 24, 2010 11:42 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

If you Noticed

All of my headlines have capital letters in them, If you ever have read the title of an article or book then you would know this.

For example “Popular on Facebook”

"He who lives on hope will die fasting" Benjamin Franklin was a fool

"If we are thinking playoffs, why not look towards the mountaintop"

I like my quote better

by nocal81(Vincent) on Nov 24, 2010 12:20 PM PST up reply actions  

The "If you had xxxx then you would know this" that you keep doing is a form of the Complex Question Fallacy.

Since we’re keeping score of those and all.

Additionally, a heading is not the same as a headline, and different rules apply. This is an example of why education and proper word choice are important.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 24, 2010 1:18 PM PST up reply actions  

This

Shows your utter lack of knowledge in regards to me educational attainment. I believe that i stated that these fallacies are common within modern society, and i am no different than others. However, it isn’t me that projected a senes that i was “more educated” or “better” than anybody on here. This sir, goes to you!

"He who lives on hope will die fasting" Benjamin Franklin was a fool

"If we are thinking playoffs, why not look towards the mountaintop"

I like my quote better

by nocal81(Vincent) on Nov 24, 2010 2:17 PM PST up reply actions  

If you can find me a spot in which I asserted that I was "more educated" or "better" than anybody on AN,

you win a thumbs-up from The Tick.

Shows your utter lack of knowledge in regards to me educational attainment.

I like it when you turn Scottish/Irish/Pirate, but I never said I knew anything about your education level. I mean, it appears that you’ve been through some amount of college and have accumulated a 3.8 GPA, which is great. The reality is, you’re the only one in this conversation who has asserted superiority over anyone, and you asserted it over me:

He is committing the fallacy of hasty generalization and ambiguity, but also the most common known to people that attempt to sound educated, yet remain ignorant.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 24, 2010 2:32 PM PST up reply actions   2 recs

I like it when you turn Scottish/Irish/Pirate

You have to admit, that made that post awesome. You were totally reading it with an accent for the rest of what he said.

Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples

Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.

If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.

by DMOAS on Nov 24, 2010 2:35 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Not only that, but I had to go back and read the preceding part of the sentence with an accent.

…shews yar ooter lack of knowledge in regarrrds to me educational attainment…

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 24, 2010 2:39 PM PST up reply actions  

I fear we have forgotten about pitching.

:-(

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 24, 2010 5:05 PM PST up reply actions  

It's not too late to add hitting!

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 24, 2010 5:09 PM PST up reply actions  

Is this your attempt at being funny?

Because it failed horribly.

"He who lives on hope will die fasting" Benjamin Franklin was a fool

"If we are thinking playoffs, why not look towards the mountaintop"

I like my quote better

by nocal81(Vincent) on Nov 24, 2010 5:06 PM PST up reply actions  

Good luck with the surgery to have that chip removed from your shoulder, buddy.

DMOAS and I both thought your mistake made you come off like a pirate.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 24, 2010 5:08 PM PST up reply actions  

Now now, no need to insult him that much

Maybe a Brewer or an Astro.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 24, 2010 5:09 PM PST up reply actions  

SING, I mean, ZING

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 24, 2010 5:20 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't have a chip on my shoulder

rather i do hold people to account for their criticism. Especially when we are on the internet and the person laying the criticism can hide behind a keyboard. No need to prove myself to you, however, i am inclined to debate the logistics of the situation rather than allow undo criticism to stand.

"He who lives on hope will die fasting" Benjamin Franklin was a fool

"If we are thinking playoffs, why not look towards the mountaintop"

I like my quote better

by nocal81(Vincent) on Nov 24, 2010 5:12 PM PST up reply actions  

Dude, it's not criticism!

You made a mistake that made you sound like a pirate! Go back and read it!

And if you’re REALLY still this mad that I criticized your mistake in the first sentence of your FanPost…GET OVER IT. YOU MADE A MISTAKE. I RECOGNIZED IT AND SAID SO.

If you and DFA are going to willfully rebel against the idea of having a language we can all use to communicate with one another, you’d better be prepared for those of us who DO value the English language to call you on it.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 24, 2010 5:22 PM PST up reply actions  

Couple issues with above statement

First, off i really am not mad, i just find it funny is all. Secondly, i think that pretty much every single person on this site that read the post knew exactly what i meant, therefore, communication isn’t the issue. And Finally, i have the right and the ability to VALUE English without interpreting it the way you do.

I would conclude that DFA and myself are the opposite of mad. You should see me here laughing behind my computer screen. Not at you, but at the entire post and what it has evolved into. I am going to go out on a limb here and say that you were in the debate club in school, as was i. Consequently, this type of stuff i really do enjoy!

"He who lives on hope will die fasting" Benjamin Franklin was a fool

"If we are thinking playoffs, why not look towards the mountaintop"

I like my quote better

by nocal81(Vincent) on Nov 24, 2010 5:51 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah, but the pirate talk was funny.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Nov 24, 2010 6:17 PM PST up reply actions  

I was a debater in high school. A good one. I constantly work to distance myself from that communication style.
i have the right and the ability to VALUE English without interpreting it the way you do.

It’s not a question of interpretation. “At nausea” wasn’t correct. I don’t see how this turned into a big deal. Honestly, I think there’s a poster or two on AN who like to take up the issue of grammar and spelling as soon as it’s brought up so they can fight their weird crusade against the tyranny of structure and form, a very worthwhile fight about an extremely important issue that they are certain to win.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 24, 2010 7:50 PM PST up reply actions  

This

coming from someone that “likes” socialism. Isn’t socialism an idea rooted in opposition to structure, tyranny and form? Just wondering.

"He who lives on hope will die fasting" Benjamin Franklin was a fool

"If we are thinking playoffs, why not look towards the mountaintop"

I like my quote better

by nocal81(Vincent) on Nov 24, 2010 7:58 PM PST up reply actions  

Socialism

any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

2a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property


 b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state

Ownership by the state over the means of production enables the opposition of the structure of capitalism. Socialism within itself diasbles the formation of opposition within business sector of society.

"He who lives on hope will die fasting" Benjamin Franklin was a fool

"If we are thinking playoffs, why not look towards the mountaintop"

I like my quote better

by nocal81(Vincent) on Nov 24, 2010 8:31 PM PST up reply actions  

I wouldn't leave political analysis to Merriam-Webster.

It’s not so much their forte.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 24, 2010 11:20 PM PST up reply actions  

Socialism is an idea rooted in the inherent inequalities of capitalism.

Just because I don’t like YOUR structure, tyranny, and form doesn’t mean I don’t have a preference for a better structure, tyranny, and form.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 24, 2010 11:19 PM PST up reply actions  

I thought "at nausea" was kind of cool.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Nov 24, 2010 10:09 PM PST up reply actions  

Maybe he meant "add nausea"

As in “If you continue to read this sentence, you will begin to add nausea to your list of symptoms”

Fantasy Sports Columnist for Big Cat Country

Follow me on Twitter!

by CaliforniaJag on Nov 25, 2010 1:07 AM PST up reply actions  

I didn't see that until I read your post

Hilarious. I don’t know which one to rec, so I’ll rec them both

Fantasy Sports Columnist for Big Cat Country

Follow me on Twitter!

by CaliforniaJag on Nov 25, 2010 1:05 AM PST up reply actions  

Yeah, "at nausea" made me laugh.

One of those unfortunate typos that’s way funnier this way.

by danmerqury on Nov 24, 2010 10:10 AM PST up reply actions  

If you're going to correct someone... get it right yourself

The correct phrase is “ad nauseam”. It’s “nausea” plus an m. There’s no second u.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Nov 24, 2010 12:23 PM PST up reply actions   2 recs

Right you are.

I should be more careful.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 24, 2010 1:19 PM PST up reply actions  

When I barf, there is.

“HLUUUUUUUUUUUU….LUUUU.”

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 24, 2010 5:05 PM PST up reply actions  

That's way more than two U's

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Nov 24, 2010 6:07 PM PST up reply actions  

It was a big lunch.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 24, 2010 6:10 PM PST up reply actions  

Bruce Chen

Do. Not. Want.

Jon Garland, on the other hand… I could get behind that.

I have NO rooting interest. It simply become[s] a process of elimination of who I dislike less. - 67MARQUEZ
!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam

by cuppingmaster on Nov 24, 2010 8:24 AM PST reply actions  

I Understand

But for the likes of Watson, Carson, Fox etc….. to get upwards towards 500 PA is just crazy. I think thats the point i was attempting to make.

"He who lives on hope will die fasting" Benjamin Franklin was a fool

"If we are thinking playoffs, why not look towards the mountaintop"

I like my quote better

by nocal81(Vincent) on Nov 24, 2010 10:23 AM PST up reply actions  

Right but the point is wrong

Every team has those guys. It’s not “crazy” at all, it’s par for the course.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Nov 24, 2010 12:32 PM PST up reply actions  

But most teams spread it out better than to have

so many of them named Matt.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 24, 2010 5:06 PM PST up reply actions  

Couple things:
Then why did Michael Wuertz, Jerry Blevins and Henry Rodriguez have a combined WAR under replacement level?

Just one of those things, really. We can’t assume that their 2010 levels of performance are their true talent level, and that they’ll be at or below replacement level next year. In fact, all three of those guys are projected by CHONE to be fairly significantly above replacement level next year.

When you have three starting pitchers that combined for 44 wins and a WAR of 11.4 there is no reason why you shouldn’t have 90 wins.

Our entire starting pitching staff put up 12.2 WAR, which isn’t all that great at all. In the bottom half of baseball, even.

by danmerqury on Nov 24, 2010 10:30 AM PST reply actions  

But still, the pitching and defense is what gave the A's the chance to win

81 times. Injuries, again, played a huge role in 2010….I, just for once, would lie to “not lead the league in DL time….”

That by itself cost the A’s at least a handful of games. Grrrrrrr!!!!!!!

"By the end of the year, I'll have Dallas throwing right-handed'' -Ben Sheets

by mrod on Nov 24, 2010 11:13 AM PST up reply actions  

A lot of it is the training staff

but it actually makes sense that we have a lot of injuries. Our team is always full of young guys. They get hurt way more than older ones.

by danmerqury on Nov 24, 2010 11:23 AM PST up reply actions  

My left hamstring has been pulled for over 3 months now

and I blame Steve Sayles!!!!!!!!

"By the end of the year, I'll have Dallas throwing right-handed'' -Ben Sheets

by mrod on Nov 24, 2010 11:43 AM PST up reply actions  

I can't type the letter 'r' without pain

and I blame Walt Hor — OW!!!!!! — n.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 24, 2010 5:08 PM PST up reply actions  

If you think of defense + pitching together the WAR for "non-offense" is much better

16 or so (back of the envelope here, sorry), which probably puts us in the top 3rd of the league.

I have NO rooting interest. It simply become[s] a process of elimination of who I dislike less. - 67MARQUEZ
!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam

by cuppingmaster on Nov 24, 2010 11:52 AM PST up reply actions  

Completely Agree

The A’s don’t need to hit 200 homeruns in order to win the division. Our defense and pitching can be among the best in the league, if you add some pop to the lineup you are looking at 10 wins which gives us 90 and a great chance at the Western Division crown

"He who lives on hope will die fasting" Benjamin Franklin was a fool

"If we are thinking playoffs, why not look towards the mountaintop"

I like my quote better

by nocal81(Vincent) on Nov 24, 2010 11:54 AM PST up reply actions  

This

is why we need to add a nice #5 starter. Our top 3 (Trevor Cahill, Dallas Braden, and Gio Gonzalez) were among the best in the league. You add in a healthy Brett Anderson and a veteran #5 we will approach the top 3 in terms of rotation WAR

"He who lives on hope will die fasting" Benjamin Franklin was a fool

"If we are thinking playoffs, why not look towards the mountaintop"

I like my quote better

by nocal81(Vincent) on Nov 24, 2010 11:52 AM PST up reply actions  

This is wrong. Our top 3 (Brett Anderson Dallas Braden and Gio Gonzalez) were among the best in the league

and then you add in an average Cahill and Iwakuma and you might have an top 15 rotation.

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Nov 24, 2010 11:54 AM PST up reply actions  

If you take in to account not just WAR they were

Lets add Brett Anderson to the equation and you are talking 112 starts. 51 wins, 36 losses, all had an ERA under 4.00, and two under 3.00. WHIPS of (1.11, 1.15, 1.19, and 1.31). and opposing batting averages of .220, .229, .249 and .257.

"He who lives on hope will die fasting" Benjamin Franklin was a fool

"If we are thinking playoffs, why not look towards the mountaintop"

I like my quote better

by nocal81(Vincent) on Nov 24, 2010 11:59 AM PST up reply actions  

can you please try to give me some stats that mean something?

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Nov 24, 2010 3:08 PM PST up reply actions  

LOL

Add RBIs and hits in there too. Number of pitches maybe?

Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples

Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.

If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.

by DMOAS on Nov 24, 2010 3:48 PM PST up reply actions  

Oh, QUALITY STARTZ!!!

Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples

Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.

If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.

by DMOAS on Nov 24, 2010 3:48 PM PST up reply actions  

Whats the huge uproar against quality starts about anyways?

I know its a pretty bad stat, but its better than WINZZZ.

by sums95 on Nov 24, 2010 8:09 PM PST up reply actions  

What's the big uproar against bad stats?

They’re just bad stats, not pus-infused armadillo carcasses.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 24, 2010 8:19 PM PST up reply actions  

They're really almost no better.

They still blame the pitcher for a great deal for which he is not truly responsible. Additionally, a pitcher who gives up 4 ER in 12 innings is penalized, while a pitcher who gives up 3 ER in 6 innings is rewarded. If the QS wasn’t invented so fantasy baseball owners could feel slightly smarter without actually getting smarter, that has still been its only useful function.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 24, 2010 11:23 PM PST up reply actions  

I like the stat and find it useful...

…for searching for consistent starting pitching— specifically the types of starters that don’t normally get attention. I would think that A higher percentage of quality starts than his peers over the past two or more years, without a lot of fanfare, can reveal a potential value.

But looking at median Game Score in non-fanfare pitchers is probably even more useful.
.

by LowcountryJoe on Nov 25, 2010 5:15 AM PST via mobile up reply actions  

What's even more useful than that is FIP.

It’s a real stat.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 25, 2010 9:44 AM PST up reply actions  

They're all real stats.

Some are more useful that others. Some are more widely used than others. But they’re all real stats nonetheless.

by LowcountryJoe on Nov 25, 2010 11:11 AM PST up reply actions  

-

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 25, 2010 12:22 PM PST up reply actions  

I shouldn't have corrected you.

I can see that you don’t like it. Gotta tell you, I’m not particularly fond of being corrected either.

by LowcountryJoe on Nov 25, 2010 2:15 PM PST via mobile up reply actions  

What about a graphic with Keith Olbermann making a funny face makes you think I'm upset?

For God’s sake, it says “ICANHASCHEEZBURGER.COM” at the bottom.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 25, 2010 10:05 PM PST up reply actions  

Seriously?

WHIP, ERA, +/- Wins, and opposing batting average don’t meaning anything? Not attacking you, just trying to figure out why you believe the don’t mean something

"He who lives on hope will die fasting" Benjamin Franklin was a fool

"If we are thinking playoffs, why not look towards the mountaintop"

I like my quote better

by nocal81(Vincent) on Nov 24, 2010 4:19 PM PST up reply actions  

No, a little, definitely not, not really.

In that order. WHIP has a worse correlation than ERA with pitching skill. ERA is ERA—it has its limitations. Wins are garbage. Batting average against can be mildly interesting, but again, it has a worse correlation than ERA with pitching skill.

by danmerqury on Nov 24, 2010 4:40 PM PST up reply actions  

You're pretty charitable to ERA there.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 24, 2010 5:04 PM PST up reply actions  

Which WAR are you using?

Fangraphs WAR? Or Rally WAR (B-Ref)?

by danmerqury on Nov 24, 2010 11:56 AM PST up reply actions  

B-Ref

"He who lives on hope will die fasting" Benjamin Franklin was a fool

"If we are thinking playoffs, why not look towards the mountaintop"

I like my quote better

by nocal81(Vincent) on Nov 24, 2010 11:59 AM PST up reply actions  

DMOAS directed me to this fanpost

for the meta-discussion about grammar.

But honestly, my only real reaction to all of this is:

Ack! red hats! Kill it! Kill it with fire!

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Nov 24, 2010 4:22 PM PST reply actions  

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