What the hell is Beane thinking?
by Arcman on Nov 13, 2010 12:24 PM PST
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PrintFirst it is DeJesus and now Encarnacion. I thought I knew Beane better than this but both pick ups have been out of the blue with no rumors about them before happening. So now you must ask yourself what is next?
Beltre anybody? Doesn't look like it will happen at all now. Beltre is looking for 5 year deal with around 15 million a year. To costly for a guy who tanked after his last deal and is being pursued by Boston and LA Angels who have the money to spend. So write him off the list.
Kouz or Encarnacion who at third? This one is a mystery but how I look at it Encarnacion is insurance in case they trade Kouz before Dec 2nd to get a power bat or in case they don't have a chance at a DH. The way the A's management is talking sounds like they are not offering Encarnacion arbitration but try to sign him for a contract less than last year's rate. If not he will be released. Don't forget Kouz has value with his glove and many teams are looking for a 3b. It is looking more and more that Parker will be the A's 3b in 2012 with a good AAA showing this year.
The crowded outfield? Can't play them all. So who is in and his is out. Most likely out is Cust and Buck. The way the A's beat writer are saying Cust is gone then most likely to be traded or released before arbitration offering time. Buck could be offered arbitration since he can't ask for to much and traded if he has a good spring. That leaves the A's with Crisp, DeJesus, and Sweeney as the main guys. Carter and Davis on the outside looking in. Davis is probably being offered around right now. Sweeney trade value is so low that he is staying for now.
Prospects on the trading block. With Beane you never know. I would guess Donaldson, Mortenson, Sogard, Cardenas, Weeks, and Taylor could be offered around. None are considered worth a big bat but could be part of a 3 for 1 trade. I just don't see Carter being available after what happened with Cargon being traded for Holiday. He would be your most untouchable.
Beane's next trade will be a package deal. If the A's don't sign a DH could Prince Fielder be that guy for a package deal? I don't want the A's pick up another questionable has been but get a true hitter. Just one big power bat in the middle of the lineup would be nice. So what do you guys think Beane's next move will be?
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I think he's going to enjoy a quiet weekend with his family...
Maybe work in a nap.
The monster at the end of this blog.
GM meetings coming up
Later this week so he is probably will be working the phones on Monday.
WHY DO YOU CARE SO MUCH WHAT PEOPLE DO
IN THE PRIVACY OF THEIR OWN BEDROOM?
Sorry, wrong thread.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Nov 13, 2010 2:41 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
a brilliant promotion of your own front-page piece
nuanced and subtle.
Officially awaiting the 2011 MLB season
by One won lost won on Nov 13, 2010 2:54 PM PST up reply actions
With a hint of lime!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
What bothers me is that he keeps giving away young players like Cargon and Mazzaro for ok players
DeJesus is basically another Sweeney, good average a few home runs and good defense we didn’t need another.
He traded Gonzalez and Street and Jones for 1 year of a NL hitter, Holiday. Then he trades Holliday for Wallace, Mortensen an Peterson, then Wallace for Taylor who hasn’t shown anything.
He traced Ryan Well, craig Italiano and Sean Gallagher for Hariston (another NL Hitter) and then trades Hairston and another young outfielder (can’t remember his name) back to the Padres for Kouzmanoff (another NL hitter).
I don’t think he knows how to evaluate hitting or he doesn’t want a true home run hitter.
Also, Encarnacion is another waste..
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
Can we agree that Holliday is more than just an okay player?
Can we also agree that at the time that Gonzalez was dealt, he looked to be a lesser player than a better-than-okay Holliday? And then can we also agree that Street was adequately replaced by internal options?
by LowcountryJoe on Nov 13, 2010 2:19 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
I was going to walk away from this, but I stupidly came back and will say
first of all, Billy does not “keep giving away young players for ok players.” For every mediocre or bad trade Billy makes, there are several examples of good or great ones. It is really silly to take one example then blow it out of proportion to support your fallacious arguement. I think it is widely held around MLB that Beane is an exceptional strategist. Take a small market team with small market money and you have to play the market to build a winning team. When you roll the dice, you are more apt to have some bad trades.
I'm here to talk about Don
by OptimistPrime on Nov 13, 2010 2:25 PM PST up reply actions
I have seen several very good trades he has made.. but that last couple years.. we gave up a lot
yes Gonzalez was young but he had so much promise… and Street could have gotten us a lot just on his own.
And for LowCountryJoe.. yes, Holliday was a very good player.. but, history has shown us that NL hitters take a year or so to become good AL hitters and we only had Holliday for at most, 1 year.
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
I saw it on the History channel, actually. It's true.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Nov 13, 2010 6:31 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Wait, that means it's not true.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 13, 2010 9:36 PM PST up reply actions
Ok, you tell me which NL hitter came over to the A's and produced his first year?
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
Matt....Hollliday...?
A's Fan in Sweden
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
by travdog6 on Nov 14, 2010 5:43 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Matt Holliday
Adam Rosales
Jack Cust
Milton Bradley
And besides, this isn’t just an A’s thing. You said that “history has shown us that NL hitters take a year or so to become good AL hitters”. Is there any evidence whatsoever for that one year delay?
What was your take on Piazza?
I thought he hit well in Oakland when healthy…
Every man for himself...
It was kinda sad, to be honest.
A first ballot hall of famer at the tail tail tail end of his career. He was what, 40 years old? I think it was worth a look, but ultimately, because of the age and the injuries, it just didn’t pan out.
And Chris Snelling!
OK, so that one didn’t work out so well.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
UGH. But it could have. It really could have.
Chris Snelling really was the ultimate A’s player, both on the field and in the trainer’s room.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Nov 15, 2010 6:11 AM PST up reply actions
Cust is a stretch.
He was a minor league hitter; being owned by the Padres doesn’t make him an NL hitter. Actually, now that I think of it, those are all pretty imperfect examples, since Holliday came from an extreme hitter’s environment, and Milton came with mental health issues. Hard to separate out league affects from all of those factors.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
No we cannot
That deal had an expected value of a net loss of about $42m in value at the time.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Nov 13, 2010 4:46 PM PST up reply actions
Which question that I had typed out are you disagreeing with?
by LowcountryJoe on Nov 13, 2010 5:02 PM PST up reply actions
the second two
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Nov 15, 2010 12:07 AM PST up reply actions
Which would've been fine if the A's were actually built to win in 2009. They weren't, of course.
It’s absolutely reasonable to give up future value (in WAR or dollars) for a legitimate shot to win now. The problem is the team wasn’t anywhere near a contender and they made a “win now” move.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Nov 13, 2010 5:05 PM PST up reply actions
You can say that again.
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 13, 2010 5:52 PM PST up reply actions
There is no way that a move that stupid can ever be justified
Holliday would have had to have won the World Series for the A’s twice in the same season to justify that move. It’s literally the case that the A’s lost more money (or more accurately money-value worth of wins) on that deal than they would have gained by winning a world title.
It was unbelievably stupid and cannot be defended under any circumstances. And it was known to be so at the time. This is not some latter-day hindsight analysis based on Carlos Gonzalez’s breakout. With hindsight, it now looks more like a $100M loss, or the trade equivalent of giving away a threepeat championship dynasty.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
by PaulThomas on Nov 13, 2010 11:56 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
The trade was justified by many fans at the time -- check the posting history between 11/10/2008 and two days afterward
And while I agree that you played the maverick maven at the time, you were certainly a hell-of-a lot more moderate toward other members who were high on the Holliday deal. In other words I didn’t see you using the same forceful words that you are using today. Why is that?
Perhaps you can put the hyperbole back on the shelf and save it for another argument…or not [that would even be better].
by LowcountryJoe on Nov 14, 2010 6:19 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Hyperbole or no, PT was clearly against the trade from the minute it was announced.
"We've come a long way, and I'm not talking about Virginia Slims, either." - Art Howe
I thought I had acknowledged in the post you responded to.
Just pointing out that there were many fans that were excited about the Holliday deal at the time it went down. Those fans did not think it was “unbelievably stupid and [that it could not] be defended under any circumstances.” Now, had PT actually written this at the time of the trade in response to the giddiness of everyone else, I would not have responded to his comment.
by LowcountryJoe on Nov 14, 2010 7:06 AM PST up reply actions
Meh. It's hard to criticize someone for not being insulting enough while being right
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 7:32 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I didn't find it that hard
Besides, at the time of the trade, a great many people did justify it and were excited about it. And really, judging a trade at the time it happens is the only fair thing to do if one is investigating ’ the justifications or defenses of a trade’.
by LowcountryJoe on Nov 14, 2010 7:47 AM PST up reply actions
Just drop it man
No matter what you say regarding this topic they’re never going to let you be right
by CrazyBoutTheGreen on Nov 14, 2010 9:25 AM PST up reply actions
A great many people justified it because they were irrational fanboys
A great many people also justified calling up Chris Carter last August because they were irrational fanboys. I thought it was stupid and a great way to lose baseball games. Did I post that seventeen times in every Chris Carter thread? No, I did not. Partly because I like still having ears rather than having them bitten off by a pack of crazed hyenas, and partly because I am not— despite all appearances— actually an asshole who takes pleasure in irritating others.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
I know I fall under the "irrational fanboy" umbrella sometimes
But I really thought that there was a chance of signing him long term. He seemed like the perfect fit (sure would suck to have a 6WAR left fielder in the middle of the lineup eh?) and I still think that was the gamble. It would be a lot easier to swallow the CarGon thing anyway…
Wait
Are you now faulting me for not more aggressively raining on people’s parade?
Christ, I can’t win with some people.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
by PaulThomas on Nov 14, 2010 11:08 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
I'm with you dude
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 11:25 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
It seems that way but you have to know that's not what I'm suggesting.
I wish that you didn’t feel compelled to rain on other people’s parades [using such hyperbole and abrasiveness] now or back then. It’s just that you would have had a heck of a lot more credibility if you had done it back then instead of what you wrote above earlier today. Might have been able to increase your reputation as the sage that you are.
In other words, back then you could have been courageous and wrote this looked to you like it could be a $40M-$100M loss for the Athletics for [insert logical reasons] and not worried about getting your ears bitten off by crazed members of AN who probably would have been reasonable about it. I don’t think you would have been blasted had you laid out the reason why you opposed the trade — and it made sense — back then.
I’m not really sure how you arrive at those numbers anyhow — it doesn’t make sense to me right now. But to suggest that that trade cannot be defended under any circumstance seems way too absolute for my tastes.
by LowcountryJoe on Nov 14, 2010 12:40 PM PST up reply actions
Paul now:
It was unbelievably stupid and cannot be defended under any circumstances. And it was known to be so at the time. This is not some latter-day hindsight analysis based on Carlos Gonzalez’s breakout.
Paul in early 2010:
Just to refresh your memory,
1. I agreed with that assessment of the state of the division at the time, and
2. I still thought the Holliday trade was an idiotic overpay at the time.
The A’s should have waited and signed a left fielder as a free agent. They could have gotten 2/3 of the production for like 1/6 of the cost.
In August 2009, on Carlos Gonzalez:
I fully expect him to prove the Holliday trade a total disaster for Oakland
He’s ahead of where Franklin Gutierrez was at this point in his career, and shows every sign of developing into a similar player.
In March 2009:
Contrast that to the Holliday trade, which I think cost the A’s somewhere in the 8-10 wins range over the life of the deal.
In December 2008, again on Gonzalez:
6 years of him is absolutely worth one year of “Matt Fucking Holliday”
I don’t think I’d even have made that trade straight up, much less with two other chips included. He already projects as a league-average player next season, at age 23, despite all of his flaws— and odds are he’ll continue to improve for some time.
November 18, 2008:
It’s almost mathematically impossible for the players the A’s gave up to be SO terrible as to make this deal a win for Oakland. The only way it makes sense is if it’s capitalizing on a short-term opportunity— and I cannot recall ever seeing even a single person in October of this year saying "Gee, the A’s really need to sacrifice the future to win now." This short-term "window of opportunity" doesn’t exist.
November 8, 2008:
The difference between being the favorite by 1 game and the underdog by 2 games
is not worth the talent it would take to obtain Holliday.
He does not guarantee a playoff spot, which is pretty much what I’d be looking for before I gave up that kind of talent package for a rental. He might increase the odds of making the playoffs by, eh, 10 percent? That’s not even close to good enough.
I’ll post the links to the threads if anyone doubts the accuracy of these quotes.
I did not go after the trade harshly on the trade thread itself because of how trade threads work. The point of trade threads is for everyone to get together and congratulate each other on how awesome the trade is going to be and how the team is surely the favorite now— unless it’s a trade of a major leaguer for prospects, in which case the point is to lament the loss of a “fan favorite”, complain about how the team never keeps any of its stars, and conspicuously display ignorance about the prospects involved.
I spent the trade thread getting drunk and posting meaningless nonsense because I had just finished a major law school assignment and had no desire to duke it out with people over what a dumb move it was. Literally within days of that, before the significant part of the offseason had gotten started and based on the exact same information, I made the substantive critique that I have continued to make ever since. Not more than a few weeks later at most, again during the same offseason and again without a single piece of new information, I had documented my opinion on the value lost in the trade, which was about 8-10 wins or $36-45M.
So, basically, your claim that I did not make similar arguments against the trade at the time, as compared to now or at essentially any point in the intervening period either, is a lie.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
by PaulThomas on Nov 14, 2010 4:03 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
My bad.
So, basically, your claim that I did not make similar arguments against the trade at the time, as compared to now or at essentially any point in the intervening period either, is a lie.
I didn’t set out to lie. I didn’t know that you had written those things. I was ignorant to your thoughts; that’s different than lying.
Literally within days of that, before the significant part of the offseason had gotten started and based on the exact same information, I made the substantive critique that I have continued to make ever since. Not more than a few weeks later at most, again during the same offseason and again without a single piece of new information, I had documented my opinion on the value lost in the trade, which was about 8-10 wins or $36-45M.
I do want to see a link to this post, though. I want to see how it is you arrived at the numbers you did. You did break this down, correct?
It was unbelievably stupid and cannot be defended under any circumstances. And it was known to be so at the time.
I still do not agree but perhaps this money/value thing will help out with that if you care to share it. Besides you, who else was adamant that this deal sucked? Any baseball pundits in that group?
by LowcountryJoe on Nov 14, 2010 4:22 PM PST up reply actions
Alright
See:
Those threads have my breakdowns of the deal as of the offseason of 2008-2009, before the players started changing the perceived value of it by playing more games. I would strongly suggest reading the entire threads for context, not just the linked posts (which just happen to be the ones I could find by searching the word “Holliday”).
Re: pundits, I was really surprised at the time by just how many of them supported the deal. Joe Sheehan thought it was excellent. I think there was still some degree of “the Beane mystique” at work at the time (and, indeed, that the outcome of that trade was, more than anything else, directly responsible for the unraveling of said mystique among the SABR crowd).
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Can the A's hire you?
""Expelliarmus!" said Eckstein, attempting to knock the bat out of Matt Kemp's hands, just before Kemp laced a single to center." -Ken Tremendous
PT mentioned once the A's rejected an application for employment/internship
PT, what position was that for?
Haha
""Expelliarmus!" said Eckstein, attempting to knock the bat out of Matt Kemp's hands, just before Kemp laced a single to center." -Ken Tremendous
Oh, that was for some legal-department thing
Pretty offhand, really. Probably had far more to do with “the Crowley side” of the team than “the Beane side,” so to speak.
They’re welcome to hire me as a common-sense consultant for the baseball-ops staff, though… or, hey, if they hire me for the legal department, they get my common sense free of charge! Just think, it’s an added perk!
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
you know
when you are in school, you have to apply to lots of jobs. There are lots of listings and its doesn’t take much to drop a resume off.
I hardly think its a “rejection”
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes
I used the word rejection because if i recall correctly
PT was joking with Nico that he was a tad bitter about the franchise not opening up their arms for him. Out of College you absolutely apply for a lot of jobs, no argument.
Good stuff
Your discussion of value came in that last link you provided: specifically from this particular comment. There were some well-reasoned responeses to your comment that I found equally persuasive. You did call it, though, and suggested numerous times within those three threads that CarGon might [though you wrote it as though it were much more likely than just a ‘might’] make the deal look sorry going forward.
But I still think the trade was defensible especially since Beane was trying to get other pieces to bring the team out of rebuilding mode and to make a run at the playoffs.
by LowcountryJoe on Nov 14, 2010 6:02 PM PST up reply actions
I don't think that move was really a "Beane move."
I don’t think anything that happened that offseason was what he actually wanted to do, mostly because it didn’t make any damn sense and Beane’s other failures always make sense on some level.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Nov 15, 2010 6:17 AM PST up reply actions
No question on this one -- you called it, period.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I'm seriously NOT trying to blow my own horn here
I’ve said plenty of things that look totally stupid in retrospect, too, like when I compared Rangers prospect Martin Perez (somewhat unfavorably) against James Simmons. That didn’t exactly work out well.
It’s just aggravating and baffling to me to see someone claim that I should have done more griping at the time, when as far as I can tell I did about as much of it as the good graces of the AN populace would (and should) have allowed.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
I'm being sincere
This was a time when you called it then and have every right to say, “You know, sometimes I am right on.” I’m glad you didn’t do more griping at the time, because it would only have been obnoxious. You griped plenty, and with good reason. Dumb, dumb trade that haunts the team and should never have been made.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Are you willing to go...
It was unbelievably stupid and cannot be defended under any circumstances.
…this far with it? Because at the time the trade was made, how many people were stating this? That’s important, because if the trade didn’t look like it was going to be bad when it went down [to most people, that is], that’s a defense under a circumstance right there.
by LowcountryJoe on Nov 14, 2010 4:49 PM PST up reply actions
At the time, I think people just lost their heads to some extent because of getting wrapped up in the thing
I know Nico was favorable to it, as a result of just doing this retrospective; surely you’ll find other recurring AN names (who are generally good thinkers) supporting it in those threads. I was not alone in opposing it (I noticed that Blicks also found it very silly as of the time), but I was in the very small minority.
I think if you ask most of “the majority,” they’ll tell you that they were reacting emotionally rather than rationally to the trade news.
It was an episode of groupthink, IMO. It happens. I’m not trying to use this as a way to call people out or rub it in. Call it a teachable moment about the need to take a step back and make sure you’re on firm ground when dealing with something that you’re heavily emotionally invested in.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
No I wasn't favorable to it
What I recall saying is, “Had Sweeney been substituted for Gonzalez, I’d be ok with it.” I always thought Gonzalez was the real deal and that Sweeney wasn’t, and I never thought the A’s should trade Gonzalez, as I thought he had star potential.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I would agree, though, that I
probably convinced myself to be more favorable to it at the time, since it was done and the A’s had acquired a “real” hitter.
So the “reacting emotionally rather than rationally to the trade news” probably does apply to me a bit, especially if you replace “emotionally” with “rationalizing some,” since what’s done was done and I was willing to see it through.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Could be I misread; I was only breezing through earlier
In any case, like I said, my purpose in mentioning it isn’t to set up an inquest over past views.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Honestly, I don't remember my level of
reaction to the trade, just that I was very clear on believing Gonzalez would be very good and that Sweeney wouldn’t and that I wished Sweeney, not Gonzalez, had been the one dealt.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I think we all can agree in retrospect
that the A’s would prefer to have Carlos Gonzalez on the roster now than a mediocre half season from Holliday and Michael Taylor on the 2011 River Cats.
But consider Gonzalez’s numbers at Coors and away from Coors in 2010:
Coors: .380 / .425 / 1.162 / 26 hr, 76 rbi
Away: .289 / .322 / .775 / 8 hr, 41 rbi
Average out CarGon’s away numbers over the course of the season and you get an above-average hitter, not a Barry Bonds type. Granted, CarGon would have tied Kouz in hr totals, but suddenly it doesn’t seem like we made out as terribly as we thought.
Who’s to say that CarGon would have developed into a superstar in the green and gold? Without a doubt the change of scenery was very helpful for his numbers, and thus, his confidence, helping him transform into the current beast that he is.
I don’t know about the rest of AN, but I don’t think we can expect as amazing a line for CarGon next season, especially in BA, given how little he walks.
These clothes are good enough to drink in, and so be these boots, too.
He is literally the perfect Coors hitter.
But he never would’ve achieved the success he had in 2010 playing in Oakland.
"It’s ideal if your hobby and your living can merge. But you are not going to stop your hobby if you can’t make money out of it. Your hobby is all about trading time for enjoyment. My job is what I do. My hobby is who I am." -Tango
by notsellingjeans on Nov 15, 2010 3:18 PM PST up reply actions
No one can really know this
For all we know he could have. Then again, for all we know last year might be the best year he will ever post. One thing is likely, though…we may never know for sure.
by LowcountryJoe on Nov 15, 2010 4:46 PM PST up reply actions
I think you're getting too wrapped up in this...
It’s just aggravating and baffling to me to see someone claim that I should have done more griping at the time, when as far as I can tell I did about as much of it as the good graces of the AN populace would (and should) have allowed.
…thing where I had told you that you should have done more gripping back then. That’s not my larger point that I want to make with you. My point is that your comment about the trade not being able to be defended under any circumstances isn’t something I can agree with you about.
by LowcountryJoe on Nov 14, 2010 4:53 PM PST up reply actions
Its not hard for PT to be right more often than not
real talk, does he ever like any move made by the A’s? Its easy to play the odds that something might not work out more than it does. In baseball, failure is the norm.
*no disrespect to PT but I have noticed a negative trend in your views of the organization. You have every right to those views, but its kind of an easy way to look right all the time. I’d rather see the good in anything and try and understand where Beane is coming from rather than write it off, but that’s me. I have no issue being “wrong” either, in fact I welcome it. Egos are for jerks.
the organization hasn't done very much right since the haren and swisher deals.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Nov 15, 2010 12:09 AM PST up reply actions
I liked the IFA signings and I didn't really like the Choice
pick but he seems to have done OK so far. The IFA signings haven’t turned out all that great yet, but it’s early still. Coco was a good signing that I wasn’t that high on at the time.
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2010 2:50 AM PST up reply actions
the IFA's have all been terrible
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Nov 15, 2010 1:51 PM PST up reply actions
Ynoa threw an awesome inning!
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2010 4:55 PM PST up reply actions
The Blanton deal was great
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
that is true.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Nov 15, 2010 1:51 PM PST up reply actions
This is overly harsh and you know it
Besides Blanton, the Kouz deal was pretty good. And I’ve actually agreed with the Green and Choice picks. And if you don’t want to give them credit for the Stassi, Krol, and Cabrera picks, you have to give them credit for the picks who have out-performed (Parker) their projections.
I liked the Taylor for Wallace swap at the time. And if you want to go with moves that were strange at the time but worked, Crisp is good. They’ve increased their international budget and it’s impossible to tell if their scouting of those guys was good or not.
There’s been a lot of injuries and busts but that’s not necessarily the A’s fault. The A’s have certainly made mistakes recently but they haven’t fallen into complete incompetency the past three years.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
by vignette17 on Nov 15, 2010 2:58 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
this.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Nov 15, 2010 4:53 PM PST up reply actions
You're seriously arguing that trades are more likely, on an overall basis, to make teams worse than better?
That cannot possibly be correct. The whole point of trades is to increase the overall value of the two teams by rearranging their assets into a better configuration.
As for the specific plaint… if you can’t find moves the A’s made that I’ve liked, you’re really not looking hard enough.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
We speak different languages
Had Holliday won a World Series in Oakland, the trade would have been a success. Period. You play to win the game, not to maximize WAR and money.
The hyperbole in this post is why its tough to stomach some of the things you say. I have a feeling the two of us agree on what you are TRYING to say, but the hyperbole forces me to argue against you.
So is Barry Bonds unsuccessful because he didn't win the WS, in spite of being the best offensive player ever?
A's Fan in Sweden
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
No, but the Giants teams he played for were.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.
I dunno.
Had Holliday won a World Series in Oakland, the trade would have been a success. Period.
Ask Marlins fans (wait, are there any left?) if it’s worth sacrificing practically everything to win it big right now!!!, and then living with years and years of the worst possible suck imaginable.
And plus, the A’s team surrounding Holliday mostly sucked. (Except for Davis and Kennedy, who were both playing better than they ever had previously or will again.) Here are the OPS+ for the rest of the position players that year: C-92, 1B-85, 2B-85, SS-80, RF-99. We were 22 games back at the end of the year, and it wasn’t really a big shock.
Take your silver mod tubescreamer, your dr. z, your nocaster, put them in a pile and burn them. if god gave you a thousand years, you still couldn't touch this. you can't f***ing keep time to this.
Marlins haven't been much, if any, worse than the A's since their 2003 World Series
victory
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 10:55 AM PST up reply actions
Yeah, I should have read up a little more before posting...
I was just kinda going off what I thought I knew.
Take your silver mod tubescreamer, your dr. z, your nocaster, put them in a pile and burn them. if god gave you a thousand years, you still couldn't touch this. you can't f***ing keep time to this.
I would have loved to see that 09 team with a healthy Chavez and an 850 OPS from Giambi.
I think we got pounded early on because those 2 went missing.
and we should have absolutely signed Holliday long term.
Sorry. Disagree. One World Series is enough. I don't want my team to win a World Series for any kind of value that is gained.
I want them to win a World Series to win a fucking World Series.
I’m not defending the move because the team (especially with garbage like Giambi and Cabrera added) was NOT built to actually win. But in the hypothetical situation that Holiday was the final piece? It’s absolutely a good move.
You’re horribly underrating the importance of winning a single World Series.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Nov 15, 2010 6:14 AM PST up reply actions 3 recs
OK
How about in the real world, where the absolute max a deal like this can do is to raise the chances of winning the World Series by like 3 or 4 percent?
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Also, in the real world
The Giants just won the WS. With a bunch of crooked screws and scrap metal for a lineup. 3-4% mattered in there to them, somewhere.
If you go too far the other way, then it’s just that the WS winner got supremely lucky. And hey, there’s a lot of luck involved in baseball. But that’s not to say you shouldn’t improve your odds when you can. It’s just that here, like JD said, the folly was in thinking that the A’s had a contender on their hands.
I have NO rooting interest. It simply become[s] a process of elimination of who I dislike less. - 67MARQUEZ
!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam
by cuppingmaster on Nov 15, 2010 12:48 PM PST up reply actions
The sad thing is
Holliday might have actually been the final piece to the 2010 puzzle, not the 2009 one.
you don't know how many times I've thought this
I have NO rooting interest. It simply become[s] a process of elimination of who I dislike less. - 67MARQUEZ
!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam
by cuppingmaster on Nov 16, 2010 8:15 AM PST up reply actions
At the time I remember thinking (not without support) that we were favorites in the division pre-trade
And the trade made us better that year.
So 3-4 percent right in the sweet spot is definitely worth some future-mortgaging.
I was, of course, wrong on our chances and wrong on the degree of future-mortgaging.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Yes, BB-Pro had the A's winning the division with 84 wins or something
Victor Wang wrote a THT piece on how the trade made sense financially. The result was the worst possible outcome. Crappy team, Crappy Taylor, Awesome Carlos
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2010 4:57 PM PST up reply actions
Hmmm...
The Kouz trade was pretty much a win for us unless Cunningham pans out.
Same with this DeJesus trade! It was a great trade, IMO, and I would say DeJesus is more than an OK player.
AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.
by stranahanahan on Nov 13, 2010 2:53 PM PST up reply actions
like the kouz trade
Other than Ryan Webb who was your flipped to Marlins the A’s came out on top. Cunningham looks like a 4th outfielder with a bad glove.
Cunningham has a "bad glove"? Since when?
Coming up through the minors he was a borderline CF (though he’s NOT good enough to play there, there was always a realistic hope he could be). He’s certainly not a “bad glove” at the corners.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Nov 13, 2010 5:07 PM PST up reply actions
He looked bad in his brief trial with the A's. I was willing to attribute that to small
sample and adjustment, but it wouldn’t shock me if he were bad. Jose Canseco also came up as a borderline CF and he deteriorated defensively in a hurry. Ditto Reggie Jackson.
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 13, 2010 5:51 PM PST up reply actions
Canseco just quit trying to play defense.. he was all about HRs only...
Of course, he did learn how to use his Head, when trying to catch a ball
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
I would just like to post somewhere on here that Ryan Webb for Cameron Maybin is very lopsided in SD's favor.
and its hilarious how much SDP fans overvalue their bullpen. This trade is like us trading Barton for 2 relievers after his 2008 year, just totally nearsighted and idiotic. Plus Ryan Webb is a throwaway reliever who had a great year IN SD (0.90 ERA at home/4.97 ERA away), he pretty much sucks, we traded Scott Hairston for him, cmon (and then Hairston back for Kouz, god SD got ripped on that deal…until Florida stepped up their stupidity).
It’s never cool to give up on a highly touted prospect before they reach their late 20s unless its a clear win for your team. FLA is so poorly run its ridiculous.
Using home/road splits really makes it difficult for me to take your argument seriously
We’ve been over this before with Carlos Gonzalez. Home/road splits are objectively inferior to park adjustments. They cannot tell you anything of substance on their own.
Also, Barton had a lot more indicators of future success in 2008 than Maybin does now. He also still had option years, which was important in 2009.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
by PaulThomas on Nov 14, 2010 11:18 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
SD is literally the only park in baseball where I think H/A splits are valid
Its so comedic lopsided in favor of pitchers I think its worth noting. Webb is nothing more than a product of SD, just like the many before and after him. Webb will put up much worse numbers in 2011 now he’s not there. I’m almost willing to put money on it if there was an online betting place that would take such a bet.
And the other guy had a 1.8 HR/9 AT Petco, this trade is the ultimate sell high/buy low deal, maybe the best one Ive seen in years. SD came out like bandits here.
It's not even the biggest pitcher's park in baseball.
A's Fan in Sweden
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
One-year park factors are not usable
Too subject to random variance.
Petco is clearly the most pitcher-friendly park in baseball over the long term.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Did not know that.
Now I do!
A's Fan in Sweden
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
yep. 1 year park factor for 2010 says the Coliseum plays neutral (all one needs to know right there)
"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins
by justANotherAsFan on Nov 15, 2010 9:56 AM PST up reply actions
No. He's another Dana Eveland. He's mediocre.
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 13, 2010 4:20 PM PST up reply actions
Mazzaro is much better than Eveland ever thought about being.
And to Stran….. Yes,, DeJesus is a good player.. good OF.. but we have those.. we needed someone with power… and defense…
By the way.. I do think that Carter can become a very good OF… as, if you remember, Barton was thought of as a bad 1st baseman and now.. he is a very good one..
Also, Since Kouz came over from the NL.. I am still hoping that he can become a better offensive player to go along with this defense… but signing Encarnacion scares me.
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
So Mazzaro's better than the 1-2 WAR pitcher Eveland was? How so?
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 13, 2010 4:42 PM PST up reply actions
Yes,, DeJesus is a good player.. good OF.. but we have those
Where?
I see Coco Crisp as our only good OF before DeJesus, but even then you can’t depend on him for 150 games. You say we needed someone with power and defense? Ok, but do you realize what that will cost, either in $ or players?
DeJesus is the next best thing and could be a 2-3 win upgrade.
AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.
by stranahanahan on Nov 13, 2010 5:16 PM PST up reply actions
I kinda think we have the money. The real challenge is convincing someone to sign
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 13, 2010 5:49 PM PST up reply actions
I'm still trying to figure out where things went wrong for Eveland
Maybe it’s psychological.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
It looks like he just forgot how to find the strike zone
His walks went way up and his K’s went way down.
batters adjusted to his borderline-stuff
Even when he was doing well in his first season, he was still all over the strike zone.
If Pennington manages 17 HRs, I’ll vow to consume an article of clothing to achieve a humorous effect --Joey C.
by cityplANner on Nov 14, 2010 11:50 AM PST up reply actions
I think that's what it was
Nervous/fidgety, afraid to challenge hitters, plus he really had poor command despite his good minor league walk records.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I think he was afraid to challenge hitters because his stuff was mediocre
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 2:27 PM PST up reply actions
Eveland has/had good movement on his pitches,
and a two-seamer that gets ground balls. Braden’s stuff isn’t any/much better; he just actually commands his pitches and actually attacks hitters.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Braden can change speeds a lot better. Eveland is 85 mph all the time
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 6:38 PM PST up reply actions
Yes. This is why he's a better pitcher,
but it’s not “better stuff” — it’s better use of his stuff and/or a better variety of stuffs.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I guess I'd call Braden's changeup as part of his "stuff", but this is ultimately a silly semantics argument.
Either way, I’d agree that Eveland was lacking in both control and consistency.
I agree the changeup is part of his "stuff"
Whereas I’d say his ability to command it is part of him pitching well with the stuff he has.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
That's exactly it.
He doesn’t have what it takes between the ears to be a successful pro athlete.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
A lil better than Eveland...
but not by much.
Note, i didn't look up eveland's stats.
He kinda failed my eyeball test. And I think he may have been released by Pittsburgh.
And if Vince doesn't improve, he can look forward to the same fate
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 2:28 PM PST up reply actions
Just no Carter
If he trades Chris Carter it better be for a player that is signed for a few years and is a power hitter with no injury issue. The only thing I do not like about the DeJesus trade is only a 1 year player for us without any guarantee of a draft pick. Mazzaro most likely not be a ace but I can see him being a #3 pitcher on most teams.
Carter is very athletic and has power to spare.. I think he can become a very very good OF..
Maybe they will give the kid a chance.. but bat him ahead of a really good hitter..
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
Carter = Dye
Looks like a young Jermaine Dye. If he plays 14 years than it is a good thing. Some hard work and he could be a decent corner outfielder.
If he's Dye that would be a great result
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 13, 2010 4:43 PM PST up reply actions
If he wasn't Dye's size and skin color, I don't think people would make the comp
Dye was a really good defender at one point, wasn’t he? I know he has/had a fantastic arm.
Carter probably has more pure power, though he’s not going to ever hit for that average. He will probably walk more. I just don’t see them as similar, though I agree that if “he’s Dye,” meaning that good (if in different ways), the A’s have something.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Nov 13, 2010 5:15 PM PST up reply actions
His ZiPS comps include Paul Sorrento and Carlos Pena
PECOTA thought Pena, Joey Votto and amusingly, Rob Nelson and Mark McGwire.
At least he seems to have the massive power of McGwire, although unfortunately not the defensive competence, nor plate discipline.
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 13, 2010 5:48 PM PST up reply actions
I remember McGwire getting 3rd base time in spring training
when he was coming up. He was an absolute and complete butcher.
Ah, so Carter is the same!
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 13, 2010 7:11 PM PST up reply actions
giambi in LF
That must have lasted 1 week. It was terrible. He made Cust look like a gold glover.
I believe he was drafted as a 3B
But I thought he was moved off there in favor of Brent Gates. I could be completely wrong though. That’s happened once.
He was good at 1B though.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 13, 2010 9:38 PM PST up reply actions
As I recall, McGwire played 3B in the minors, and Rob Nelson played 1B
They were both huge guys and were nicknamed “The Twin Towers.”
I don’t know if McGwire moved to 1B because he was a butcher at 3B, or if it’s because Carney Lansford was already entrenched and the A’s needed help at 1B.
How reliable are projection system comps for minor leaguers? Should we put any stock into them?
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Nov 13, 2010 10:56 PM PST up reply actions
Better for hitters than pitchers...
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Nov 13, 2010 11:03 PM PST up reply actions
I thought the comps were there to give us a clue how the projections were arrived at
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 4:16 AM PST up reply actions
Amazingly they were platooned to start the 1987 season
But only till McGwire had 14 HR in May or something
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 10:08 AM PST up reply actions
Best comparison I've heard:
Pat Burrell
Fantasy Sports Columnist for Big Cat Country
by CaliforniaJag on Nov 14, 2010 3:28 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
That IS a good comp,
and pretty much what I hope Carter will be.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
but i thought we weren't allowed to compare cross-race
signed,
the media
"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball
The fact that someone is tall and black does not ipso facto make them "athletic"
Carter is a clumsy lunk in the field. There’s really no reason at all to expect that to change. He has no plus or even potentially plus defensive skills.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
I think he can get less clumsy with practice, but by then his tools will start to erode
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 4:17 AM PST up reply actions
Or we can just bite the bullet and stick him in LF like Ryan Braun
Sure his defense prevents him from being a 6+ WAR guy, but Braun is consistently a 4-5 one….that will work.
Funny note: over the last 3 years UZR has Braun as being roughly twice as bad as Jack Cust in LF.
He really, really wasn't a "clumsy lunk" in left field
When you said that you barely watched him, I’m not sure how you can say that with such authority.
Your Carter/LF Defense stuff is destroying your credibility – not because Carter is actually good, but because you’re basing it on virtually nothing (mostly because he has virtually no experience there).
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Nov 15, 2010 6:24 AM PST up reply actions
I'm basing it off the fact that virtually every scouting report that's ever been written about his current skills says he's a clumsy lunk
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
I would love to see a scouting report that rated someone as a "lunk"
It’s such a rarely used word.
The monster at the end of this blog.
I kept wondering what I was missing when people call him athletic...
then I realized he was tall and black. Good enough for me.
And he was absolutely terrible out there in left last year
That’s not just Paul citing his UZR – to the eyeball, he was awful too. Terrible throwing, terrible jumps, awkward actions. The fielder’s trifecta.
"It’s ideal if your hobby and your living can merge. But you are not going to stop your hobby if you can’t make money out of it. Your hobby is all about trading time for enjoyment. My job is what I do. My hobby is who I am." -Tango
by notsellingjeans on Nov 15, 2010 3:21 PM PST up reply actions
I'm not trying to make any point here, I just found this amusing
here’s a list of all the left fielders on World Series winning teams over the last 10 years with their UZRs for that year. It would appear that LF defense hasnt meant a damn thing for the most part
2010: Pat Burrell (4.9)
2009: Johnny Damon (0.1)
2008: Pat Burrell (-8.9)
2007: Manny Ramirez (-13.5)
2006: So Taguchi/Preston Wilson (-4.0/-13.2)
2005: Scott Posednik (8.6)
2004: Manny Ramirez (-18.1)
2003: Jeff Conine /Todd Hollandsworth (-1.3/-8.3)
2002: Garrett Anderson (-0.3)
2001: Luis Gonzalez (5.0)
I imagine that you would find that having a LF who is "good" means a lot more
so, you know, the A’s should probably get someone like that, instead of Carter.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
I keep holding out hope that Rickey can teach him to field
I certainly saw the awkwardness you saw also. I just hope it’s something that is correctable through proper training.
Rickey claims he can help the kid, can show him how to get a proper jump, etc.
Since the kid had only played 24 games out there before getting his look-see in the majors, do you think it is at all possible that he can be taught to overcome some of his awkwardness? Canseco was also awkward (not just in the field, but also stealing bases), but he deteriorated because he wanted to be Dave Kingman, not because his innate athleticism was lacking.
"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins
by justANotherAsFan on Nov 15, 2010 10:03 AM PST up reply actions
Why do people expect so much?
Billy Beane is a great GM, but he isn’t the almighty God of baseball. He has his knowledge and a whole staff of knowledge and research. They are going off what they have. Also, he can only do so much with our budget. We are a small market team. Nobody can predict the future. Every GM in baseball, including Beane, will make some bad decisions along with some good ones. Nobody’s perfect. In my opinion we should be lucky to have one of the better GMs out there, who made more good decisions than bad.
As for this off-season. He isn’t done yet. So don’t jump the gun.
But we love gun jumping.
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 13, 2010 7:11 PM PST up reply actions
Gun jumping is better than hindsight 20/20ing.
I think there’s a bit of an unspoken caveat to our gut reactions that goes something like “Before I see where this leads, this is what I think. This opinion is subject to change based on tomorrow’s move.”
If we always wait for things to be “done,” we’ll never have comments since move-making is never done.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Nov 13, 2010 10:58 PM PST up reply actions
This is fair.
I think we’re getting a hard lesson on the limitations that face anybody attempting to operate the A’s. You can do things around the edges like getting a Bradley, or a Cust, or a DeJesus, or a Thomas, and every once in a while, it can work out spectacularly well. But most of the time, it’s nearly impossible to hit it out of the park, because the A’s can’t play in that league. Then it becomes tempting to trade for Matt Holliday, which I was stupid enough to endorse.
In the end, the only thing the A’s can do to get a f&*(ing A ballplayer is to develop them, and that’s an even more depressingly nebulous proposition.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
I'm not sure what limitations you're referring to, but the Rays and Rangers have low budgets too
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 7:57 PM PST up reply actions
The Rangers don't, especially historically.
The Rays do, but see PT’s comment below. The Twins are a better example, but they haven’t hoisted a trophy since two years later than the A’s, either.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Rangers budget this year was $55 million at the start
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 8:25 PM PST up reply actions
Didn't they just get that huge TV deal though?
A's Fan in Sweden
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
Yeah, and then they added a whole bunch of stuff.
Low budget is not the Rangers.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Rangersbudgetpayroll this year was $55 million at the start
by Billy Frijoles on Nov 15, 2010 10:40 AM PST up reply actions
Well, there is one relatively clear way
Lose tons and tons of baseball games and then take them with top or near-top overall draft picks.
Of course, that is an unpalatable solution (for obvious reasons).
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
We're losing half-tons and still not getting a lot of revenues.
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 8:25 PM PST up reply actions
why you can't trade Carter
He is the A’s only true power hitting prospect. None of the other prospects are true power hitters. Play Carter all year and see what he gives us.
It seems that you've changed your tune from just two years ago
http://www.athleticsnation.com/2008/11/12/659971/joe-sheehan-weighs-in-on-h#9981141
What Holliday can bring to the other A’s outfielders is tremendous. He is an all around hitter and the other younger
by LowcountryJoe on Nov 14, 2010 5:59 AM PST up reply actions
Thats completely unfair "2 years ago"???
We all thought Ben Grieve was going to be Hall Of Famer, you cant bring super old stuff up again like that man, totally unfair. I change my opinions (almost daily sometimes) if someone can offer up logical reasons why what I think might be off. We aren’t in court here, its (mostly) casual conversation that can change with the tide.
I still think Ben Grieve is going to be a Hall of Famer....
What you fail to understand in your joyless myopia is that baseball is the key to life-- the Rosetta Stone, if you will. If you just understood baseball better all your other questions your, your... the, uh... the aliens, the conspiracies they would all, in their way be answered by the baseball gods.
I was there during his great '#1 BMW dealer' season of 2007.
He was just a machine that year.
What you fail to understand in your joyless myopia is that baseball is the key to life-- the Rosetta Stone, if you will. If you just understood baseball better all your other questions your, your... the, uh... the aliens, the conspiracies they would all, in their way be answered by the baseball gods.
Beane has liked DeJesus for years
while Encarnación didn’t cost anything to bring over and doesn’t necessarily have to be kept. Both trades really are kind of typical of Beane. But I think he’s just getting started this offseason.
I've liked Rod Carew for years
Git ’er done, Billy!!!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
crisp writing!
perfectly placed, cogent and profound!
Officially awaiting the 2011 MLB season
by One won lost won on Nov 13, 2010 2:56 PM PST up reply actions
Iglew will descend upon you in no time
"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin
by Helloooo 1st on Nov 13, 2010 3:24 PM PST up reply actions
Um, what makes you think Beltre was ever an option for the A's?
He turned them down last year. Why would he change his mind now?
They might offer him the most money?
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 13, 2010 4:21 PM PST up reply actions
Like they did last year?
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Nov 13, 2010 5:12 PM PST up reply actions
Yes and this year he's more likely to accept than to take another 1 year deal
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 13, 2010 5:44 PM PST up reply actions
Yes it does
The one-year deal was about rebuilding his value so he could get a better multi-year deal. Now he’s looking for the best multi-year deal, and if the A’s offer it he’ll likely come. Last year, he simply wasn’t going to sign in a pitcher’s park, nor did he want a multi-year deal.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
This is what I was thinking
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 4:18 AM PST up reply actions
Yes, but if another team is offering same years but slightly less money
I think he plays for that team.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Nov 13, 2010 11:00 PM PST up reply actions
He'll take it!
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 4:18 AM PST up reply actions
Phillies offered the same deal as the A's last year
But Beltre thought 3 years @$8 million/yr wasn’t enough. So he signed a one year deal for $10 million to play on a bandbox and improve his numbers, and then go on the market again now. He wants more years and more $$ than he was offered last year. He’ll sign with the team that offers him the most years and money – but he clearly feels that what the Phillies and A’s offered last year was not enough.
by OaklandSi on Nov 13, 2010 10:34 PM PST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
I thought the A's offered more than $8 mil per.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Nov 13, 2010 10:59 PM PST up reply actions
no they both offered 3 yrs 24m
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Nov 15, 2010 12:13 AM PST up reply actions
all about the money
Beltre would take the A’s if the money was right. Boras wants a 5 year deal.
He wants a 5-year deal in November
It’ll be a 3-year deal in January.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Nov 13, 2010 5:12 PM PST up reply actions
He might get a 4 year deal in December though
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 13, 2010 5:53 PM PST up reply actions
I would be SO happy with something like a 4/65
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 13, 2010 9:39 PM PST up reply actions
I'm not sure he gets more than 3 years based on the Seattle contract
And while that contract paid almost exactly what he was worth over the life of it, I think a lot of people think he was overpaid there.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Nov 13, 2010 11:00 PM PST up reply actions
Last year the A's offered more money than Boston, and he turned them down
Why would that change now?
Because last year was about rebuilding value.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 13, 2010 9:40 PM PST up reply actions
Read what I wrote above
Philly offered the same deal as the A’s. For Beltre it’s all about the money and guaranteed years, not about the place.
by OaklandSi on Nov 13, 2010 10:35 PM PST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
I've said this 234899283944293 times, but I think it bears repeating.
Beltre is gonna get a ton of money and a long contract, all based on his 2010. It’s true, his 2010 was nothing less than stellar, but it’s not likely to be repeated. His BABIP was .037 points higher than his career norm. If you take his 2009, he’s worse than Kouz, if you take other years, he’s a marginal upgrade over Kouz at about 12 Million (?) more. He’s. Not. Worth It. I think the odds of Beltre putting up a 7 WAR season in 2011 are slightly less than the odds of Kouz being more valuable than him. I think the odds of Beltre putting up a 7 WAR season in Oakland are roughly the same as me marrying Taylor Swift. It’s just not likely to happen, and I don’t want the A’s putting 15 or so mill to find out if it’s gonna.
A's Fan in Sweden
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
I don't think teams are quite that dumb overall
Everyone knows Beltre won’t have 7 WAR seasons over the next 4-5 years, no matter how Boras tries to position it. His 2010 season will boost his value, just as he gambled it would, but he won’t get paid as if his 2010 season will be repeated every season through 2014.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
If coming off his mediocre 2009 he could get 10 mill,
I imagine he’s gonna get something high for his next contract. I’d think somewhere in the 4 year/12 mill a year range. I don’t like it for the A’s.
A's Fan in Sweden
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
I look forward to number 234899283944295
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 13, 2010 6:04 PM PST up reply actions
You're in for a surprise.
I’ve been saving something special for that one.
A's Fan in Sweden
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
bad contract waiting
The redsox are acting desperate to sign him now that the Angels have gotten involved.
Don't sell yourself short
I’m sure Taylor Swift would fall deeply in love with you, if you just gave her a chance.
But why would he want to marry Taylor Swift?
She sings country music and looks like a pencil.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 13, 2010 9:41 PM PST up reply actions
YOU TAKE THAT BACK NOW
A's Fan in Sweden
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
Yeah!
I don’t care about country music, but the pencil thing was just plain rude.
She looks like an eraser on top of two pencils.
Heh ok I laughed a little but
YOU TAKE THAT BACK NOW.
A's Fan in Sweden
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
I like country music and pencil women
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 4:19 AM PST up reply actions
You like women who are dull and pointless?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I'm not sure whether you're saying country music is dull and pencil's pointless or vice versa
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 10:10 AM PST up reply actions
HEY HEY
Pencils have points. That makes her pointedly dull.
by UrgentMirth on Nov 14, 2010 10:13 PM PST up reply actions
Keeping him away from the Angels...that's a good reason.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Nov 13, 2010 11:05 PM PST up reply actions
That's an awful lot of payroll to spend on a guy who will barely make the A's better.
Also, while 3B in Anaheim was nothing short of a disaster this year (I’m looking at you Brandon Wood), I don’t think Beltre is a gigantic, division altering signing for them. I really see him as a 2.5 WAR guy from here on out. I’m bearish or bullish on the guy, whichever one is negative.
A's Fan in Sweden
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
Even if you think Beltre's a 2.5 WAR guy,
the Angels would be getting roughly a 4.5 WAR improvement over Brandon Wood (yes, he was that bad. He was a -1.8 WAR player in 81 games last year). Operating on the more realistic assumption that Beltre’s a 3.5-4 win guy, the Angels could be improving their team by roughly 5, even 6 wins. For a team that finished just one game behind us, yes I would spend quite a bit of money to ensure they don’t get that upgrade (and also upgrade over Kouz by 1.5 – 2 WAR).
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Nov 14, 2010 12:00 AM PST up reply actions
The Angels can massively improve themselves by signing Crawford, Beltre and Soriano
But to be fair, they do have Callaspo and Izturis for 3B, no? Wood’s not the stand pat alternative
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 4:21 AM PST up reply actions
Well I'm pretty sure the Brandon Wood experiment is over.
Callaspo I’d say is roughly a 2 win guy, making Beltre a 2 win guy there. That’s a lot of money for 2 wins and Beltre is far from a sure thing.
A's Fan in Sweden
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
Callaspo isn't a sure thing either. They do have Mice Hair though
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 7:30 AM PST up reply actions
They might need him when Aybar gets benched...
I’d say it’s more like a 3 win upgrade when you consider the other beneficial effects of depth on their roster.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Beltre, Callaspo and Izturis is pretty good depth -- could be 3 Wins
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 12:15 PM PST up reply actions
I know they have Callaspo.
But we’re talking about wins over last year. Last year, Wood cost them about 2 games. Just by putting a replacement level player at third this year, they would improve their team by 2 wins. A full season of Callaspo, maybe 3. Signing Beltre, anywhere from 4-6.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Nov 14, 2010 3:17 PM PST up reply actions
It was actually worse than that.
Wood only played 81 games, and still accumulated -1.8. Frandsen played like 40, accumulating -.4 and Callaspo was bad in the remaining games. Wow that’s ugly. So I take that back, you’re right, it would be a huge upgrade if they got Beltre.
I still don’t agree with the A’s signing Beltre though. Blocking the Angels would be nice, but you’ve still got the Rangers ahead of us. With Beltre you add three wins (if he has a good year), 2.5 for Dejesus (I think, I might be wrong) and I’d say about a win if Cust has a decent year and plays all 162 games, instead of the Fox/Chavy debacle. So that’s 6.5 wins by my count (again, the Dejesus guess could be completely off, I don’t really have time to check right now) added onto their 85 win pythag from 2010. That’s up to 92 wins, but you gotta factor in regression and injuries. My best guess would be about 87-88 wins. I think we need more.
A's Fan in Sweden
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
I love Brandon Wood's AFL line.
.341/.385/.489. It’s like he’s just daring Anaheim to give him another shot.
Haha that would be so amazing.
I honestly feel bad for the guy. I don’t understand how you can be that good in the minors, and that terrible in the majors. It’s not easy for me to feel bad for an Angel either.
A's Fan in Sweden
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
Obviously, the biggest insta-upgrade would be signing Werth or Crawford for the remaining COF spot.
Seeing as that’s most likely not happening, signing Beltre is the next best thing (and yes, I realize that’s not likely to happen either).
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Nov 14, 2010 4:59 PM PST up reply actions
Fair enough
A's Fan in Sweden
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
Here's why I'd take Beltre
Beltre from 2005 (first year in the AL) to last year: 4.0 WAR per year on average
Nick Swisher from 2005 to last year: 2.96 WAR per year on average
Obviously this isn’t exactly comparable, but the point is that I think most of us would be just fine if the A’s traded for Nick Swisher, and probably wouldn’t mind signing him to an extension if they did. Swisher at the moment makes $9 mil in 2011 and $10.25 mil or a $1 mil buyout in 2012; if he were extended he’d likely cost more than that.
Now, would you rather trade a significant haul in terms of prospects for Nick Swisher to upgrade Ryan Sweeney, or would you rather pay cash and nothing else to sign Beltre to upgrade Kouzmanoff? I’d MUCH rather sign Beltre, who could and probably will easily outperform Swisher next year at the expense of strictly cash as opposed to trading prospects AND paying cash for a similarly-valued player.
Fantasy Sports Columnist for Big Cat Country
by CaliforniaJag on Nov 14, 2010 6:39 PM PST up reply actions
That 4.0 average includes the 7.1 though, which I don't think he's likely to repeat.
I think of him as more of a 3.7ish win guy.
The difference between those two is that 3B is not exactly a position of need for us; RF is. I wouldn’t go for either of those guys really, (although I’m starting to come around on Beltre). I think priority 1 should be signing one of Crawerth.
A's Fan in Sweden
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
I'm all for Crawford, but there really is no difference between 3.7 and 4.0
WAR isn’t that precise a number.
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 7:56 PM PST up reply actions
This.
If it were purely a hitting component (with positional adjustments), there’d be a difference. We can say that a 4.0 WAR DH definitely had a better, more productive year than a 3.7 WAR DH. But for all other position players? We should really just be quoting single digit numbers, without the tenth place.
Cool, thanks for the info guys.
A's Fan in Sweden
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
That depends on the health of Sweeney
Also, I don’t think it’d be that hard to flip Kouzmanoff for a hitter with a similar WAR, and it’d definitely be fairly easy to sign a guy with a similar WAR value…some guys that put up mid-2s WARs as outfielders this past season: Pat Burrell, Jim Edmonds in half a season, Bobby Abreu, Ryan Ludwick (okay, so I’m exaggerating “MID” 2s a bit with these 2.2 guys…).
The point is that signing Beltre and signing let’s say Ludwick is probably a better use of assets for the A’s than to trade prospects for Swisher and keep Kouzmanoff at third, and it’s probably also a better team on the field.
Fantasy Sports Columnist for Big Cat Country
by CaliforniaJag on Nov 14, 2010 11:26 PM PST up reply actions
I agree, I'm not really sure where Swish came from
but ya that makes sense.
I just don’t see it likely that we sign more FA’s than Beltre if we were to land him.
A's Fan in Sweden
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
Swisher had been discussed in another thread as a hopeful trade target
I just carried it over. We can use Luke Scott if you’d prefer. The point is that any trade target would add similar value to the team, and it’s likely a better use of resources to just sign a guy that adds significant value.
Fantasy Sports Columnist for Big Cat Country
by CaliforniaJag on Nov 15, 2010 11:12 PM PST up reply actions
Alright
Well I’ve never been a big proponent of trades this offseason, especially with one of our expendable pieces already traded. My big point is that Werth would be a 4ish win upgrade in right, Beltre a 2ish win upgrade at third. I’d prefer Werth.
A's Fan in Sweden
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
I would too
but is that going to happen? I doubt it, but maybe I’m too readily dismissing it. I’d love to get Werth.
Fantasy Sports Columnist for Big Cat Country
by CaliforniaJag on Nov 16, 2010 10:50 AM PST up reply actions
Eh ya, that's a good point. Life of an A's fan.
Is Beltre really that much more likely though? Serious question, I haven’t been paying attention to anything he’s said about preferences or stuff like that.
A's Fan in Sweden
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
No idea
I’ve been assuming Werth’s deal will be longer, but I honestly have no idea. It seems like everyone is all over Beltre right now so if he wanted to make a play on Werth, now would be the time.
Fantasy Sports Columnist for Big Cat Country
by CaliforniaJag on Nov 16, 2010 9:21 PM PST up reply actions
Makes you wonder why the Angels didn't claim Encarnacion
I mean, why not?
If Pennington manages 17 HRs, I’ll vow to consume an article of clothing to achieve a humorous effect --Joey C.
by cityplANner on Nov 14, 2010 11:57 AM PST up reply actions
I think you are too hard on Beltre
Even when he is playing like crap he’s as good as Kouz, just because he’s unreal defensively. He has two Kouz-y 2.5 WAR years to his name, the rest are mostly 3-4’s with 2 MVP years in there for good measure. If LAAA had a 4 WAR guy at 3B, that does not bode well for us. They are already getting a 4 WAR guy back at 1B in Morales. Beltre is an upgrade for us and a potential division changer in LAAA. If he’s the only guy we get from here on out I think we have done enough this offseason.
And I’d offer him 5 years, I think he will still be holding down a pretty good 3B at age 37.
I am hard on Beltre,
You’re definitely right, he’s as good as Kouz at his worst. But I think that spending a lot of money and years on an aging player coming off a career year is not a good idea. His WAR the last 5 years has been 4.9, 3.0, 4.0, 2.5, and 7.1. He could put up a 7 WAR year but I could just as easily see him putting up a 3 or so win year. I just really don’t like the idea of 5 years of that at 12 or so mill. Maybe it’s just bad memories of our last long term 3B deal.
I don’t think I’d do 5 years. I think range is one of the things to go with age, and once Beltre’s starts to decline, he’s just not that valuable.
A's Fan in Sweden
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
uhh, unless he's had 2 careers
That wasnt even his career year. 2004 10.1 WAR season FTW.
Bottom line is when he’s on….he’s ON better than anyone. When he’s not, he’s very good and when he stinks, he’s Kouzmanoff. I want one of those…
I'm not gonna dive into your first point. Whatever.
In Beltre’s 12 full seasons, he’s been “on” in 5 of them (I’m being sorta generous there), and the other 7 have been sorta meh/Kouzmanoff-y for 15 mill or whatever he gets.
A's Fan in Sweden
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
In Cal Ripken's 21 seasons he had an OPS+ of 120 or better in 8 of them
In the others he was somewhere between Kouzmanoff and Aubrey Huff. He just did enough in those 8 seasons to have a HOF peak/prime.
Being very good in 5 of 12 seasons and average in the others is a very fine player
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 10:13 AM PST up reply actions
I'm not questioning his value, I'm questioning whether he's that much better than Kouz to deserve that long/expensive a contract.
A's Fan in Sweden
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
Ah, so you're questioning whether Beltre for 4/$48M is better than
Kouzmanoff for 2/$12M. I believe Beltre to be a 1.5-2 WAR upgrade on Kouzmanoff so that would cost about $6M/year for two years. I think that’s easily worthwhile when the A’s are on the cusp of contending as they are now.
After that Beltre let’s say Beltre becomes a 2.5-3.5 WAR player for 2 years at $12 million per year. That’s still an above average player, but an expensive one a time when the pitchers are arbitration eligible. It’s worth it to me if attendance can get back closer to the 2.2 million range from the 1.4 million range, but not otherwise.
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 10:54 AM PST up reply actions
Exactly what I meant.
I don’t agree with that though. If you throw money at Beltre, it takes away from money that we could spend on a COF. The length of the contract also scares me; I can definitely see Beltre’s range and value decreasing as he gets older. Plus the core hitting arbitration part.
Random question, is the 4/48 a rumor, or is that just what a lot of people have been projecting?
A's Fan in Sweden
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
I'm just guessing at the 4/$48M
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 11:28 AM PST up reply actions
Its not just upgrading Kouz though
Its making sure LAA doesnt upgrade as well. That’s why we need Beltre more than anyone. We can trade Kouz to the NL and then that way LAAA has to trade players or sign some FA garbage filler to play 3B.
You are only looking at us, you need to be looking our div rivals too. Taking that 1.5-2 (at the least) upgrade for us is as important as blocking LAA from making a 4+ win upgrade
Being generous,
our Pythag was at 85 wins this year, we added Dejesus which is what, 2 wins in left, if we add Beltre, being generous that’s 2.5 wins at third bringing us to 90 wins on the year or one win short of Texas’ pythag. And I must stress, that’s being generous, we’ve got some regression to consider too.
A's Fan in Sweden
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
My point being the A's need to add as many wins as possible.
A's Fan in Sweden
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
I can't believe Beltre would choose Oakland over Anaheim for similar dollars
It would likely have to be a significant relative overpay for the A’s to get him. It may or may not be worth doing that.
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 11:31 AM PST up reply actions
You can pretty easily sum up Beltre
as “good player is good”. I really have no idea why people are acting like players in their age 34-36 seasons are going to be completely awful, its usually not the case and I really cant see Beltre falling off a cliff until he’s about 38 or so. Even if we do sign him to an overpay and for whatever reason, say Parker goes berserk and needs to be the 3B, Beltre will always have trade value to a team with money (Yankees).
Cal Ripken is in the HOF because of the streak (which, ironically, is most likely why he wasn't actually a better player)
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Nov 15, 2010 6:27 AM PST up reply actions
Wow. Um, you're horribly underrating him.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.
Dude, he's 0.3 short of 100 WAR over his career.
You know how many players have accumulated 100 WAR? Like, twenty. Maybe.
yeah, well, he still sucks
(i hate him, one of my least favorite players ever)
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones."
-BB 07/27/05
He has not one, but two 10+ WAR seasons.
and an 8.8, and a whole heap of +20 defensive efforts at SS.
Dude was unbelievably good. If anything, he was UNDERrated because the streak took over his career.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.
WELL HE'S NOT ONE OF THEM
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 15, 2010 3:40 PM PST up reply actions 4 recs
I'm sure the Rookie of the Year...
…the two MVPs, another third place finish for MVP, the 19 straight ASG appearances, and the 3000 hits might have also been a factor.
by LowcountryJoe on Nov 15, 2010 2:41 PM PST up reply actions
That's an average of 4.3 WAR a season for the last 5 years
5/60M would be a steal.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
The 7.1 scares me though,
brings up the average and I don’t like the odds of that season being repeated. And 5 years is a pretty good chunk of time for a 33 year old.
A's Fan in Sweden
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
Oh shit my bad.
That makes me a little less apprehensive about signing him, but I still have my doubts.
A's Fan in Sweden
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
Well it would have been a steal anyway.
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 12:16 PM PST up reply actions
Too soon, too soon
Beane picked up Encarnacion on waivers. He’s looking to sign Lance Berkman according to ESPN. My thoughts:
Okay, first: Carter. Chris Carter showed, in his final two weeks, that he might be ready to hit major league pitching. It’s obvious, though, that he’s not ready to be a major league fielder. Plus, he’s the kind of talent you want to keep around for an extra year. I think the A’s are planning to send him to Sacramento for a couple of months so he can get real experience in the outfield and in order to gain that year.
Thus - the team that will open the season will NOT include Chris Carter. The Encarnacion pick-up just gives the A’s a trade chip. They can sign and trade him; they can now trade Kouzmanoff. Flexibility.
Lance Berkman and Conor Jackson form a platoon in the outfield and at DH. Sweeney or Davis gets traded during spring training. the outfield consists of DeJesus, Crisp and a power hitter. Either Encarnacion or Kouzmanoff plays at third base.
I don't see Encarnacion being the every day 3Bman
A low-OBP guy with “eek” defense instead of one with “really good” defense, behind Cahill, Anderson, Iwakuma?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Yeah, I don't either
Frankly, I don’t see any reason why Encarnacion is even on the team other than as a possible trading chip. This was just speculation. The truth is that there’s room on the 40-man roster right now, and maybe Beane can package him with somebody in a trade … or at least I hope that’s what’s going on.
But hell, I see no use for Berkman either.
I think it's more a "why not?" move
They haven’t committed to anything with him yet.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I like the deal of Iwamura for Iwakuma
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 13, 2010 7:13 PM PST up reply actions
Conor Jackson is lefthanded
Well, the way he’s played recently, more like no-handed, but I’ll resist the temptation to call down another paragraph-long screed of imprecations on him.
Point is, he and Berkman cannot make a functional platoon.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Nah, I'm pretty sure he's right handed.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Nov 14, 2010 12:08 AM PST up reply actions
Nope...he's a righty
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
he's righty
"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball
Alright, alright
I got the point.
So we’re just back to “Jackson is freakin’ terrible” then. I’m hardly someone who fetishizes power at the expense of OBP, but if you insist on a platoon bench guy, E5 is a zillion times better than Jackson.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
agreed
"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball
Your post made some points
until you said
Lance Berkman and Conor Jackson form a platoon in the outfield and at DH.
Lance Berkman setting foot in the OF is complete suicide for any team. He hasnt even set foot in an OF since 2007. 4 years in between drinks? Not happening.
I was trying to be kind...
The truth is that I see no reason why Encarnacion should be claimed, I see no reason why Berkman should be on the A’s radar, and I see no reason why Conor Jackson should not be non-tendered.
No reason for Encarnacion?
Flip him for a Marks like prospect for a very low cost (pretty much whatever it took to claim him off of waivers). If that doesn’t happen, try to sign him to a 4-5 mil contract and have him platoon/be a back up. If that doesn’t happen, just non tender him and take your very very small loss.
when an asset becomes available for nothing, you acquire it.
That’s what good business people will do and I think it translates to baseball, especially in the offseason. Midseason, you may not want to disrupt good chemistry, etc., but in November? Pick him up baby!!!
It’s not like we don’t have room for improvement at multiple positions.
I do think David Forst was very clear when he said, we have plenty of time to figure out who are starting 3B should be (quote from the article on the A’s website).
So I think that plainly the FO thinks we can improve on Kouz, and that Edwin is worth exploring as an option.
by Billy Frijoles on Nov 15, 2010 10:56 AM PST up reply actions
But he's not
He’s a worse fielder, and once you bring in park considerations, a worse hitter. It sounds good, stockpiling, which is why I wrote my first post, but the moment you consider actually spending $5M on a player you don’t really want to keep, you’re going to find yourself eating the money, whether you keep him or not. The only way this works is as a play and trade, i.e. you wanted him, you weren’t fast enough…we have him, what will you give us in return? I don’t see that as a particularly great business move because of the risk.
Wait... whats the risk?
theres a few NL teams with holes at 3b (without looking at anything, i think the cubs had a 1 war player at 3rd other than Lee who was traded).
If he wants arb, just non tender him.
Lee is the 1b, not 3b. Fail by me... but
Ramirez was -0.7 WAR. Idk about his (aramis’s) contract, but E5 is an obvious upgrade there.
Aramis is getting paid 14.6 million
He put up 0.9 WAR in 2010 and 2.6 in 2009. Before that he had five straight year of greater than 4 WAR. He’s the Cubs starting 3b.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
MLB Network told me that Berkman was a very good defensive OF!
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Nov 15, 2010 6:28 AM PST up reply actions
Does he "play the right way"?
""Expelliarmus!" said Eckstein, attempting to knock the bat out of Matt Kemp's hands, just before Kemp laced a single to center." -Ken Tremendous
I hardly ever watch that...
…but had it on just yesterday as I was folding/hanging clothes and heard the same damned thing.
by LowcountryJoe on Nov 15, 2010 2:43 PM PST up reply actions
Well he was a good defensive OF 7 years ago
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2010 4:37 PM PST up reply actions
Sandoval?
Could we pry Sandoval from the Gnats now that his value is low? How about sticking Sandoval at DH, backing up 1B and 3B.
"I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested." - octopus virus
Until he stops having Cheetos and Mountain Dew for breakfast, I'm not sure I want him.
I’m really worried he’s going to eat his way out of the league in a couple years.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Nov 13, 2010 11:04 PM PST up reply actions
I'm always skeptical of the hacktacular guys too.
I’m also frequently wrong, so there’s that.
A's Fan in Sweden
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
by travdog6 on Nov 13, 2010 11:45 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I think it's well established by now that Sabean won't even pick up the phone when he sees the Coliseum on his caller ID
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
We need to trick him into a 3-way
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 4:22 AM PST up reply actions
A night on the town and some wine coolers?
Would that do it?
by mizzousundevil on Nov 14, 2010 6:06 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Sure, we just need cake in the dugout
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 10:17 AM PST up reply actions
that makes me cry laughing every time
If Pennington manages 17 HRs, I’ll vow to consume an article of clothing to achieve a humorous effect --Joey C.
by cityplANner on Nov 14, 2010 12:03 PM PST up reply actions
It didn't stop us from getting Jack Cust.
Have you ever seen the famous blooper from Cust’s Oriole days?
NOTE: I’m not endorsing getting the Panda, either.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
That blooper is amazing.
I don’t think I’ll ever see anything that bad in professional baseball ever again. Any form of professional baseball. College, probably, even.
Come on now, it's not his fault someone put a giant, delicious piece of cake on the field. That's cheating.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Nov 15, 2010 6:29 AM PST up reply actions
.
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones."
-BB 07/27/05
Yummy!
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2010 6:36 PM PST up reply actions
Sandoval's Value Is At An All-Time Low Right Now.
He could be had for a couple peanuts and a diet root beer. Seriously, reports are that the Giants are looking at starting him in the minors next season, and may not have any real plans for him beyond that; this is of course assuming he remains with the Giants. I think if the A’s offered a low regard infield prospect and some change we could get him.
Sandoval’s Stats
2008: .345 AVG- .357 OB%-.490 Slugging-3HR-24RBI-0.9 WAR
2009: .330 AVG- .387 OB%-.556 Slugging-25HR-90RBI-4.8 WAR2010: .268 AVG- .323 OB%-.409 Slugging-13HR-63 RBI-0.8 WAR
Was 2009 a career year? Or was 2010 an off year? I don’t know, but i think it is somewhere in the middle. I think it may actually be what they call low risk, high reward in regards to Sandoval. Keep in mind the dude is only 24, and if he doesn’t eat himself out of the league could have a bright future.
"He who lives on hope will die fasting" Benjamin Franklin was a fool
"If we are thinking playoffs, why not look towards the mountaintop"
I like my quote better
by nocal81(Vincent) on Nov 14, 2010 1:54 AM PST reply actions
I'm all in favor of getting him
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 4:22 AM PST up reply actions
Really? He's not as good a hitter as Cust,
and wouldn’t fit at either corner infield for us (not 3B because he’s not good enough defensively, and not 1B because we have Barton there).
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I'd take him over Kouzmanoff and make Cahill show us that he's as awesome as his defenders claim
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 10:15 AM PST up reply actions
Isn't he kind of a "higher BABIP" version of Kouz at the plate,
with much worse defense?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
CHONE has him at .312/.354/.495 and Kouzmanoff at .261/.302/.423
Kouzmanoff projects to K 101 times in 554 AB, and Sandoval 69 times in 503 AB, so Pablo does have better contact skills. But the BB rate and ISO are similar, but with the higher contact rate and BABIP, he is a better hitter.
BTW CHONE has him at 20 Batting Runs Above Average, just below Cust. He’s a below average defender of course. I’d take him over Kouzmanoff since his hitting is a lot better and I’d take him over Cust because he’s not at a collapse age, although he is at a collapse weight.
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 2:26 PM PST up reply actions
Hmm...I think CHONE may be crazy.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
It's frequently wrong. It's just the most recent objective projection I'm aware of for him.
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 6:40 PM PST up reply actions
Um, Cahill is awesome at inducing ground balls
Having an obese man who is 2 donuts away from diabetes standing on 3B instead of an actual athlete is not going to help us win any games.
Unless he can hit
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2010 2:52 AM PST up reply actions
I think there's a possibly unquantifiable loss of value on the defense that outweighs the gain on offense.
By creating a hole at 3B, you essentially destroy the entire defensive machine that is our infield. Now Pennington is more stretched to cover balls over at third, which stretches Ellis, which stretches Barton. By having anything less than an exception defensive infield, you kill our entire pitching/defense situation.
Meanwhile, IF Sandoval turns out to be a decent hitter, which isn’t a given at all, you’ve marginally increased the effectiveness of the offense. I don’t think that makes sense at all.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 15, 2010 8:44 AM PST up reply actions
You so right. You've actually understated the case.
Not onlay are Penny, Ellie and Barton stretched, but all of our groundballer pichers will lose value, too.
This is exactly why our infield works and I don’t want to mess with it, given that our pitching is in no way lights out strikeout type pitchers. To compete, we need all the infield D we can get.
"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins
by justANotherAsFan on Nov 15, 2010 10:30 AM PST up reply actions
sadly, then down below in this thread, everyone wants Uggla
and are perfectly happy to trade Kouz for him. Along with Ross, Donaldson and whatever else.
Too many people just wanna see dingerz!!!
Me, the only infielder I’d replace would be if the A’s could sign Beltre. Otherwise, just work on the outfield, Billy…
"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins
by justANotherAsFan on Nov 15, 2010 10:53 AM PST up reply actions
Only because I've seen Kouzmanoff hit
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2010 5:08 PM PST up reply actions
Sounds good
A’s marketing: “come see the Panda in his new exhibit at the Oakland Zoo!”
Fantasy Sports Columnist for Big Cat Country
by CaliforniaJag on Nov 14, 2010 3:37 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Why is nobody ever upset
that the Big 3 was essentially dealt for Michael Taylor?
Seriously, how did Tim Hudson net nothing in return?
In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson
Really?
Mulder => Barton, Haren
Haren => Anderson, Carter
So one of our best pitchers, our best position player and our best prospect came from Mulder as well as 3 years of awesome Haren.
As for the Hudson trade, sometimes prospects bust and don’t pan out. It’s just the way the game goes.
I’m not going to rehash the Holliday trade, since it was gone over ad nauseam above, but to say that we gave up the big three for Michael Taylor is an incredible oversimplification that ignores both on the field value over the last several seasons and the seasons of team control we yet have for Anderson, Barton and Carter.
A full time A's fan in Portland who spends part of his time on AN.
by yusebio on Nov 14, 2010 3:59 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Plus Zito did get us a Grant Desme and either Corey Brown or Sean Doolittle
OK, that’s nothing
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 4:25 AM PST up reply actions
Well Brown could still pan out
Doolittle looked like a good prospect until his knees fell off, and Desme is with the Angels now.
"I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested." - octopus virus
Doolittle
Brown was compensation for losing Frank Thomas.
I can’t fault the A’s for either of those picks.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Nope I liked them then
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 12:17 PM PST up reply actions
Dan Haren Daric Barton
Brett Anderson, Chris Carter, and Carlos Gonzalez. But ya, just Michael Taylor.
A's Fan in Sweden
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
Wasn't Meyer a top 20 prospect at the time?
It all goes back to that ST when he injured his shoulder, didn’t tell anyone, and tried to play through it.
"I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested." - octopus virus
flagged for trolling.
How can you ignore that Mark Mulder was dealt for Daric Barton AND Dan Haren, who was dealt for an entire organization?
you win worst post of the thread
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones."
-BB 07/27/05
Because it's totally false?
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Nov 15, 2010 6:34 AM PST up reply actions
These moves are about creating depth. If we can get Cust to re-sign or Berkman we could platoon with EE at DH only...
If Kouz got hurt, EE could sub at 3B and occasionally give him time off.
the OF is set with Crisp, DeJesus, Sweeney, Jackson and Davis (the hot hand will be played here/ or injuries will figure the group out)
Carter will be called up in late May like Buster Posey was. He can play everyday working in the OF for Sacremento.
Beane will probably wait now and sign one of the FA’s sluggers who is left un-signed.
He can wait on the following to platoon with EE at DH
Manny Ramirez
Magglio Ordonez
Johny Damon
Jack Cust
Lance Berkman
Vlad
Every man for himself...
Maybe Beane saw the importance of roster depth ala SF Giants??
I really fell IMO the moves are about depth!!!
Every man for himself...
Encarnacion might be the best bench player in the league...along with Lowrie and Izturis
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 10:17 AM PST up reply actions
and the most expensive after Zito
"I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested." - octopus virus
Ya, he'd be basically a 1-1.5 WAR upgrade on Tolleson for an extra $5 million
It’s a lot, but not ridiculously so. If they need someone to take their money, I’d prefer him to Ben Sheets.
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 11:10 AM PST up reply actions
It might not be applicable
but I’d rather take that extra ~5-7 million that Edwin will demand, and add it to get a much better regular player than a backup.
"I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested." - octopus virus
Ya for this to happen, that better regular has to choose to play for Oakland
I’m guessing part of the reason to upgrade the bench is that these guys have no choice but to play here.
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 11:34 AM PST up reply actions
yes, exactly, this is an excellent point
the money has to be spent somewhere, and the most deserving FA candidates don’t want it from Oakland.
The way this offseason has played out thus far is much better than being left in January with $10M to burn and Ben Sheets’ rehabbed right arm the last thing left on the market.
"It’s ideal if your hobby and your living can merge. But you are not going to stop your hobby if you can’t make money out of it. Your hobby is all about trading time for enjoyment. My job is what I do. My hobby is who I am." -Tango
by notsellingjeans on Nov 14, 2010 11:56 AM PST up reply actions
Zito isn't a bench player
Though the Giants might still win the “most expensive benchwarmer” award with Aaron Rowand.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
He might not be but it was amusing nonetheless
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 12:18 PM PST up reply actions
Next DH
I’ve heard that Billy will make a bid for Manny and Magglio. And I hope the outfield is not set. There’s not enough power among those guys to light up a studio apartment. Count on Sweeney, Davis and / or Jackson to be traded. One of them has to go for someone who will not help keep the A"s at the bottom of the MLB teams regarding homers.
by Charley Thompson on Nov 14, 2010 6:01 PM PST up reply actions
+Manny+Magglio
CF: Crisp
1B: Barton
RF: Ordonez
DH: Manny
LF: DeJesus
2B: Ellis
C: Suzuki
3B: Kouzmanoff
SS: Pennington
Thats a much, much better team than we had last year. Much better.
I prefer
CF Crisp
1B Barton
RF Magglio
DH Cust
3B Beltre
LF DeJesus
2B Ellis
C Suzuki
SS Pennington
Sign me up.
Fantasy Sports Columnist for Big Cat Country
by CaliforniaJag on Nov 14, 2010 11:30 PM PST up reply actions
Either or
both work just fine…..in fact we can probably do both and have Cust at AAA to use if Manny implodes.
I don't approve.
I love Manny and all, but I don’t think he makes more sense than Cust on this team.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 15, 2010 8:45 AM PST up reply actions
The only sense he would make is butts in the seats
"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins
by justANotherAsFan on Nov 15, 2010 11:06 AM PST up reply actions
Problem is, this is Oakland.
It makes no sense to raise your payroll $3M to sell $2M worth of tickets.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2010 12:47 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I think the $2Mill is optimistic. I didn't say it boiled down to actually making sense
But there is no other sensible reason to do it. Increased attendance just somewhat dulls the pain. If Manny can’t be motivated while “playing” in the field, just how motivated could he possibly be as a DH, not to mention the poor prima donna would be suffering the media equivalent of sensory deprivation.
That said, the loss of his PEDs cannot explain the sudden drop off in hitting from a guy who just was a hitting machine all those years…
"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins
by justANotherAsFan on Nov 15, 2010 1:39 PM PST up reply actions
...
That said, the loss of his PEDs cannot explain the sudden drop off in hitting from a guy who just was a hitting machine all those years…
No, but his age can…
Fantasy Sports Columnist for Big Cat Country
by CaliforniaJag on Nov 15, 2010 11:14 PM PST up reply actions
At some point you need to attract fans.
A transaction oriented look at marketing will almost always result in no spending, since no expenditure can be proven to result in increased revenue directly.
In general teams that show a willingness to spend money attract fans, grow recurring revenues, build brand and grow shareholder value. It’s not just baseball teams, it’s how almost all non-real estate businesses work. Unfortunately we’ve had two straight real estate developers owning the team who seem to think like you.
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2010 5:01 PM PST up reply actions
Well, it doesn't...
In general teams that show a willingness to spend money attract fans, grow recurring revenues, build brand and grow shareholder value.
…seem to be the winning seasons that’ll do it in Oakland.
by LowcountryJoe on Nov 15, 2010 5:13 PM PST up reply actions
The problem has been the anti-marketing coming out of ownership
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2010 6:35 PM PST up reply actions
I wouldn't mind signing either Ordonez or Vlad to DH.
"I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested." - octopus virus
I would love to have Konerko
But why would the ChiSox let him walk? And why would he want to leave?
by Billy Frijoles on Nov 15, 2010 11:02 AM PST up reply actions
+1
You know you are big-time when people chant your name while you pee. - 67MARQUEZ
by bakerbeachboy on Nov 15, 2010 1:41 PM PST up reply actions
Why would Mags prefer to be in Oakland over returning to Detroit, though.
"It’s ideal if your hobby and your living can merge. But you are not going to stop your hobby if you can’t make money out of it. Your hobby is all about trading time for enjoyment. My job is what I do. My hobby is who I am." -Tango
by notsellingjeans on Nov 14, 2010 11:57 AM PST up reply actions
Dollar dogs?
A's Fan in Sweden
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
maybe he has some sort of anxiety disorder like greinke and would prefer to play in front of empty seats
the new undervalued commodity
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones."
-BB 07/27/05
by xbhaskarx on Nov 14, 2010 12:01 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
lol i think this about greinke all the time
i really think he doesnt like the crowds….totally unfounded but theres gotta be a reason the yanks are on his no-trade list.
Usually teams on your no-trade list are the teams you think are most likely
to trade for you. Then you can either not go, or demand financial compensation to agree to a trade.
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2010 2:53 AM PST up reply actions
Is there a WAR measurement for DH's???
Cust vs. Ordonez vs. Berkman vs Edwin Encarnacion vs. Manny at DH
Every man for himself...
Since it's purely offensive, you can just compare their wOBA's.
A's Fan in Sweden
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
You shouldnt do that though....
because then you learn that even after missing 6 weeks, only Thome, Papi & Luke Scott (who all had full seasons) were better than Cust this season. And that kind of flies in the face of the ludicrous “Cust is bad at hitting” argument.
right
but yet it will still continue
"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball
Marlins looking to trade Uggla???
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/11/marlins-intend-to-trade-uggla.html
Maybe we can trade for him???
Every man for himself...
Ross, Outman, Iwakuma, Cramer could be rotation canidates of they had to trade Braden for Uggla?
Every man for himself...
Kouzmanoff, Rajai and Wuertz
?
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 10:18 AM PST up reply actions
Grover was saying that the Marlins might be looking for relief arms
Think a package of Kouzmanoff, Breslow and Devine would do it?
"I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested." - octopus virus
They traded Maybin for two RP
I’d suspect their desires lie elsewhere now.
The monster at the end of this blog.
what are they looking for then?
OF and IF to replace Maybin and Uggla?
Rajai and Cardenas or Weeks?
"I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested." - octopus virus
I have to think a catcher would be nice for them
And young arms are never looked down upon.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
Donaldson would be an obvious choice then, or Powell to some extent
they did like Buck ;)
"I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested." - octopus virus
Sorry, I meant Baker
"I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested." - octopus virus
Haven't heard any specific rumors, but there's supposed to be 3-4 teams interested.
The monster at the end of this blog.
A's were interested before when the Marlins were still holding out hope for an extension
rekindled interest?
tbh I want a lot more of an overhaul on the roster than what we’ve done thus far. I want a good hitting right fielder, I want a not bad fielding, good hitting 3B, and I want a good hitting DH that isn’t Cust.
And though I know the arguments about spreading out depth and how its good to have a bunch of semi-decent WAR backups, I’d still rather have a starting 9/5 with more war and backups with less, due to playtime scarcity and the like.
I guess it really just comes down to that I really, really, really want to watch the A’s, see us get down by a run or two, and feel confident that we’ll still win the game (sort of like Texas) and not feel that any time we’re down it feels like an insurmountable wall.
"I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested." - octopus virus
Uggla is a good hitter...
I’m just not sure where you play him.
The monster at the end of this blog.
That was before they dealt Maybin though.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
I'm sticking with Kouzmanoff, Rajai, and Wuertz. Throw in Donaldson if they want.
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 11:33 AM PST up reply actions
That won't work
Those guys are all arbitration-eligible. They cost money. You aren’t allowed to play for Florida if you cost money.
They might take one of them in order to spend off their mandatory revenue sharing dollars, but not all three.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
I was thinking the new stadium and the awesome ZiPS projection might make them
want to go for it this year. If Loria remains Loria now, I’ll really really despise him.
What about Kouzmanoff, Ross and Donaldson then? They could keep Kouzmanoff for a year and then replace him with Dominguez. He’ll still be tradeable then probably.
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 12:28 PM PST up reply actions
I could see that getting it done if Ross passes his physical with flying colors
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
[I should add, since now we are apparently required to document everything on the record around here, that I would not like that trade at all from a value standpoint.]
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
LOL
I didn’t realize that I had the power to issue mandates up in here.
by LowcountryJoe on Nov 14, 2010 4:26 PM PST up reply actions
Man dates?
Wrong thread.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Palm dates!
Sometimes you just have to hand it to yourself.
by LowcountryJoe on Nov 14, 2010 4:43 PM PST up reply actions
Do people actually say "man dates"?
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 6:43 PM PST up reply actions
Agreed, they're getting the greater career WAR but we're getting the
greatest 1 year WAR probably.
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 6:42 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah-- I hate trades like that
We saw it with Holliday, and frankly we’re seeing it a little bit with DeJesus too, in that my reaction to that trade is somewhere between “ok” and “meh” (in the sense that I think it was fair to even slightly favorable to KC, but I understand why the A’s had to do it) whereas everyone else seems to think that Beane took DMGM’s lunch money.
I think the trade-market price of one-year rentals of MLB players is grotesquely high. In most instances it behooves the “buying” team to simply hang up the phone.
One-year rentals come with all the glitz and publicity of “upgrading your team”, with very little of the actual benefits. Most of the benefit of one-year rentals, quite frankly, is for the GM’s public persona.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
DDJ = draft picks
Mazz+prospect = no draft picks. Its easy as that. For someone who complains about the farm being bare you should be all about it.
David DeJesus is far from guaranteed for Type A status.
And as a Type B, the supplemental pick he would provide is far less value than a starter of Mazzaro’s ilk.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Nov 14, 2010 11:34 PM PST up reply actions
DeJesus basically just has to play out the season and he'll be Type A
Of course, that’s no guarantee, but he’s almost certainly going to be a Type A guy.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Nov 15, 2010 6:39 AM PST up reply actions
One or two mediocre draft picks do very little to enhance the farm system
I’d rather have Marks back if I wanted that.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Marks was a 3rd round pick, PT.
I don’t understand how you’re saying a supplemental pick is not worth a 3rd round pick.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.
Easy
Most 3rd round picks don’t then go strike out a batter an inning in the minors the next season. Indeed, many of them are immediate busts.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
So what you're saying is that you don't believe the team can draft another guy like that in the 3rd round
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.
Just because it happened once doesn't mean it's likely to happen again.
Sure, we could end up hitting a home run and grabbing a future Hall of Famer with that 3rd round pick, but we could also grab a guy who never makes it out of single-A. You just have to assume the average and roll the dice.
Sure, but it's not as if he's gone and there's nothing to show for it.
and I happen to think that this team is pretty good at drafting, so…
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.
No, what I'm saying is that the current iteration of Justin Marks
is worth more than a sandwich-round draft pick.
Why does there always have to be some weird ulterior subtext to things? Generally speaking, I mean what I say and not what I don’t say.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Hmmm...I wonder what you mean by that....
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2010 4:39 PM PST up reply actions
I strongly endorse this statement.
Signed,
DFA
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Nov 15, 2010 2:08 PM PST up reply actions
This is true
unless we re-sign DeJesus. I wonder if there is any kind of evidence supporting a theory that players who play for a team in their contract year are more likely to re-sign with them? If that was true it’d make one-year “rentals” make a lot more sense, as you’d also be adding probability of keeping them past the one year (Freddy Sanchez seemed to be similar; who knows where he would’ve gone if he hadn’t played that one year in SF? Apparently he liked it there enough to want to re-sign there without testing the market).
Fantasy Sports Columnist for Big Cat Country
by CaliforniaJag on Nov 14, 2010 11:37 PM PST up reply actions
It does seem to have a positive impact on likelihood of re-signing
but the extension has to itself be (coughkotsaysnort) itself a good idea for that to be a beneficial aspect of the trade.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
this.
Also im not sure if it actually has a positive impact on the likelihood of resigning.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Nov 15, 2010 2:09 PM PST up reply actions
I'm not sure it does either, but a. it's counterfactual so we'll never know, and b. it does make intuitive sense
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
unless they get somewhere that they don't like but was nice for the FA pitch.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Nov 15, 2010 3:26 PM PST up reply actions
Uggla
Uggla for Bailey/A-Ball hitter? Billy seems to have a tendency to trade/let go his closers once they become valuable enough. (Isringhausen, Koch, Dotel, Street.)
For the hitter, may I suggest 2B Connor Crumbliss, or 1B’s Anthony Alliotti or Mike Spina.
by Less Than Zero on Nov 14, 2010 11:27 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
Those hitters are horrible. Dixon might be worth something though.
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 12:29 PM PST up reply actions
Beane went on record no less than 2 days ago saying Uggla had no place in Oakland.
Its really cool people ignore that.
That was two days ago.
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2010 2:55 AM PST up reply actions
Please stop taking things Beane says at face value.
Beane saying he has no interest in Uggla means it’s just as likely he’ll be acquired and DHing or something as it does that he’s really not interested in him.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.
So we're supposed to take what PT says at face value but not Beane?
This is confusing.
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2010 5:07 PM PST up reply actions
Well, in short? Yeah
PT has no reason to falsify things he says in public. Beane does.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.
We don't know yet...
…but I swear this: if Uggla get’s rostered in Oakland I will be the first to throw up a protest sign.
Beane lied. Dan signed.
by LowcountryJoe on Nov 15, 2010 6:05 PM PST up reply actions
He is? Like who?
If anything he traded two chips in Mazzaro and Marks
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 10:19 AM PST up reply actions
I can't see the A's as a player for Uggla, unless they are re-routing him to a third location immediately
Think about how pissed Uggla would be if he were converted to a full-time DH, or told to switch positions, and had to come to Oakland.
He’d lose some significant future FA dollars.
"It’s ideal if your hobby and your living can merge. But you are not going to stop your hobby if you can’t make money out of it. Your hobby is all about trading time for enjoyment. My job is what I do. My hobby is who I am." -Tango
by notsellingjeans on Nov 14, 2010 12:00 PM PST reply actions
Fortunately he'd have no choice. Slavery baby!
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 12:30 PM PST up reply actions
ZOMG YOU SAID SLAVERY
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Is that a magic word or something?
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 6:43 PM PST up reply actions
There are a couple of posters hereabouts who seem to, for whatever reason, take great offense
at the comparison of slavery to the reserve clause.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Well, that's probably because baseball players get paid a shitload of money for doing nothing difficult.
It’s not really that much like slavery.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 14, 2010 9:43 PM PST up reply actions
The reserve clause has nothing to do with how players now get paid.
the oakland athletics: hittin' ain't easy
by walk off bunt on Nov 14, 2010 9:55 PM PST up reply actions
Doesn't matter.
You can’t be a slave if you’re voluntarily doing nothing important for hundreds of thousands of dollars.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 15, 2010 8:47 AM PST up reply actions
I think it's because players voluntarily submit themselves...
…to employ their services as professional baseball people knowing that they’re subjecting themselves to their playing rights being owned [for a period of time] by the drafting team that they’ve signed with.
That whole voluntary thing is the same reason why the public doesn’t view military service time as slavery now that there’s the voluntary component to it.
by LowcountryJoe on Nov 15, 2010 2:49 AM PST up reply actions
Well, now thanks to Blackwater,
you don’t need to join the US Army to be a “soldier”… there’s no longer a monopsony employer…
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
ZOMG! You said monopsony
"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins
by justANotherAsFan on Nov 15, 2010 1:43 PM PST up reply actions
There's never been a monopsony on the labor services...
…of warriors.
Semper Fidelis,
LowcountryJoe.
by LowcountryJoe on Nov 15, 2010 2:55 PM PST up reply actions
You can't just make a warrantless claim, then recite a meaningless Latin slogan, then sign your name, as if you've somehow said something.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 15, 2010 3:43 PM PST up reply actions
The Latin phrase isn't a meaningless one to me.
It’s Latin for “always faithful” and is the motto of the United States Marines — an organization I beloned to, on active duty, for 10 years of my life. As a Marine [yes, I still do consider myself one as do so many who have belonged to the organization], I’m taking a light-hearted shot at Paul [and yes it really was intended to be light-hearted] for suggesting that the U.S. Army was the only game in town until recently.
So, yes, I really did think that I said something somewhat interesting even though it was a wee bit nuanced.
by LowcountryJoe on Nov 15, 2010 4:36 PM PST up reply actions
That's tellin' 'em!
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2010 5:02 PM PST up reply actions
I'm perfectly calm, dude.
Calmer than you are.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 15, 2010 6:51 PM PST up reply actions
You know, it really didn't seem like it above.
I’m perfectly calm, dude.
Even if you weren’t aware of what I was getting at [and I’m not sure whether you did or not], it seems as though that should have been taken as a rather innocuous comment to have it laid on as thick as you did. Don’t get me wrong, I’m a big boy and I can take it [even if you did know what I was getting at the first time around]. It just seemed rather aggressive and not all that calm…I don’t blame you, though, I’ve probably rubbed you the wrong way at an earlier time.
by LowcountryJoe on Nov 15, 2010 7:51 PM PST up reply actions
C'mon, don't go away, man. This affects all of us, man.
Our basic freedoms!
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 15, 2010 9:02 PM PST up reply actions
lcj is not aware that the supreme court has rejected prior restraint
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones."
-BB 07/27/05
roundly
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 16, 2010 8:44 AM PST up reply actions
I'm not sure what this is about
Maybe I did get under your skin somewhere else and you’re taking the passive aggressive route on me. Perhaps we should discuss it; hopefully civilly.
by LowcountryJoe on Nov 16, 2010 3:14 AM PST up reply actions
eh, fuck it Dude. Let's go bowlin'.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 16, 2010 8:45 AM PST up reply actions
*
""Expelliarmus!" said Eckstein, attempting to knock the bat out of Matt Kemp's hands, just before Kemp laced a single to center." -Ken Tremendous
Imagine, just imagine...
…that he actually had the skills to play an average RF…Hello!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Even if it was a below average 3B, I'd take his bat there.
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 2:18 PM PST up reply actions
Its all about the money
Funny reading about Crawford, Beltre, and Lee. One report has the Angels signing all 3. Lee goes to NY or Texas. Crawford to Angels or Redsox. Beltre to redsox or Angels. Come on NL teams sign somebody to get them out of our league.
Because many of us don't regularly check out the fANshots...
OaklandSi put one up that says the A’s are strongly rumored to be pursuing Beltre
Very interesting…I would be willing to go as high as 5/75. Thoughts?
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
We all know how I feel about Beltre,
but damn am I happy to see the A’s making some moves. I think we’ve all questioned the ownership/management at points, but it thrills me to see that they’re willing to open the bank up.
A's Fan in Sweden
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
This is what I've been saying for years.
It’s not that Beane and Wolff were intentionally tanking the team in Oakland to move to SJ, it’s that they weren’t spending big on FA’s because the time wasn’t right. The tail end of rebuilding? Now the time is right.
5/75?
Wow. That’s a big investment for us. Wouldn’t that make him the highest paid player in Oakland history? I’m worried that handing $15MM per year to an eventual 36-year-old is a bad idea, but if five years is what it takes, then so be it.
Yeah, I'm considering the "Oakland tax".
If this rumor is true, then I think it’s a good idea to pursue him now when other teams are more concerned with bigger fish. If the A’s put a deal like that on the table right now, a team like the Red Sox would likely be more hesitant to match it since the Crawfords and Werths are still on the table. And last I heard, the Angels seem to be fully committed to Crawford first.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Nov 14, 2010 8:41 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah, that's too much
5/60 is likely to be enough to get it done somewhere.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
But as lenscrafters said, maybe not here
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2010 2:57 AM PST up reply actions
I think we're buying at the worst available time.
He’ll never hit like he did this year again, that much is for sure.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on Nov 14, 2010 8:38 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
+1
A's Fan in Sweden
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
Remaining optimistic though!!
A's Fan in Sweden
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
Of course he won't.
But he might hit very well and play GG defense.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
He's certainly an upgrade.
I don’t have a problem with the dollars, it’s the years that give me pause. I’d rather give him three years and $52MM, or something.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
I'd agree with this.
I’d prefer more $ annually over fewer years, but I’ve got a feeling Beltre wants the opposite.
Ya, three years leaves him an FA at age 35.
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2010 2:59 AM PST up reply actions
(34)
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
Yeah,
but I think signing Beltre and keeping him away from the Angels is a 5 win swing in our favor.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Nov 14, 2010 8:42 PM PST up reply actions
Maybe, maybe not.
If his value is tied up largely in his glove, the ROI is a lot harder to define than if he was just a good hitter. Defense is hard to measure; the A’s need to go after players that measure well with the bat, and that don’t raise red flags with the glove. Building a team based on defense is much harder than building on offense.
Consider this—and it’s backed by no study of Angels pitching, so it’s purely an idea. If the Angels pitching staff has weak groundball tendencies, then why do they need him? Even if they have groundball pitchers, what if they give up a higher number of flyballs than usual over the life of the contract, or the makeup of the pitching just changes over time? In that case, assuming his bat regresses to just decent, we’re in great shape for letting the Angels sign him.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Let's assume that's true
Wouldn’t that mean he’s worth MORE to us than he would be to a regular team then, seeing as we have Cahill, Anderson, and Iwakuma who are all ground ball pitchers?
Fantasy Sports Columnist for Big Cat Country
by CaliforniaJag on Nov 14, 2010 11:34 PM PST up reply actions
He is, for now.
Just saying that glove is nebulous, bat is much less nebulous, really.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
That is true, it does vary
But I would assume it usually varies within some standard deviation of the mean. With a guy like Beltre, I think it’s safe to assume he would be a plus defensively for the time being.
Fantasy Sports Columnist for Big Cat Country
by CaliforniaJag on Nov 16, 2010 12:15 PM PST up reply actions
Hm?
Are you saying that, on the Angels, he would be less valuable because there’s less balls getting to him?
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Nov 14, 2010 11:36 PM PST up reply actions
Yes.
WAR is a counting stat, right? Less opportunities, less WAR. Bat falls apart, less WAR still.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
The difference wouldn't be that great at all.
As PT said, it’s more or less 3 runs worth of difference between the most groundball heavy staff in the league and the least. So instead of a +12, Beltre would be around +9. In reality, the point is moot because the Angels have a staff that produces a lot of groundballs.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Nov 16, 2010 3:27 PM PST up reply actions
Not really though. I'd much rather they kept running Brandon Wood out there.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.
Bretton Woods hasn't been run out since 1973!
Oh, wait….nevermind; my bad.
by LowcountryJoe on Nov 15, 2010 2:58 PM PST up reply actions
People are seriously overestimating the impact of this whole groundball-pitcher/infield-defense synergy
I mean, it exists, but it’s quite minimal. Beltre pitching in front of a staff of five Trevor Cahills with a normal bullpen would see about 500 grounders a season. Pitching in front of five Jered Weavers and a normal bullpen, he’d see about 3/4 as many. If he’s a +12 in Oakland, he’d be a +9 in Anaheim.
(By the by, the difference in value to the two teams is similar to what you’d expect as to difference in required offers due to the Shithole Tax. Since Beltre cares about who’s paying him and not why, it’s the same either way from his vantage point.)
That’s assuming two really extreme starting pitching staffs. In reality it’s more likely to be less than that, especially when you realize that the current Angels relief staff is actually much more GB-heavy than the current A’s relief staff. (Above I assumed they were the same, since relievers come and go so frequently that it’s hard to predict this sort of thing in advance.)
The A’s are right to see the Angels landing him as a critical threat to their playoff chances, and to react accordingly.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
What, now Beltre's a pitcher, too?
I find it mystifying, however, that you now make the argument that the synergy between the types of starters the A’s have and their glorious infield defense is overrated, since it clearly appears to be the case that by pure pitching metrics
Warning, aside: (and how much faith I have in them or not as a proper evaluation of pitchers is an argument for another time, a time when I have honed what I have to say with such skill that I can afford to take your obviously superior debating skills on…)
Anyway, by pure pitching metrics, the starters weren’t all that good, as you so clearly argued, and further, you argued it was the A’s stellar infield defense that kept the team in all those “quality start” games.
This has led directly to my fanboy hope that the a’s don’t tinker overly much with their infield, unless they are able to replace Kouz with Beltre without hobbling their flexibility (which is a longshot, there…). I do agree that now that LAAA are after him, it swings the balance in favor of buying Beltre…
"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins
by justANotherAsFan on Nov 15, 2010 1:51 PM PST up reply actions
The pitching looked good because the A's put a bunch of generically really good fielders on the field
It would have looked good regardless of the set of pitchers that pitched in front of it. It’s not the concentration of plus UZR in the infield that made the A’s pitchers look good, just the concentration of plus UZR somewhere on the roster.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
You may have been challenged on this before
But how are you calculating the effect?
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
I thought I spelled it out above
3/4 as many ground balls, one assumes, would make a guy 3/4 as far from zero runs defensively. If you’ve got a more specific query, I’ll be happy to oblige.
The exact proportion is a bit of a guesstimate, since I had to guess at the number of innings pitched by relievers (I guessed a little over 3 innings a game) and the percentage of ground balls fielded by 3B (I guessed about 20%). But it’s close enough.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Fair enough. I'll have to think about this.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Yeah, I agree with pretty much all of this.
Paul, what do you see is the difference between having Beltre on the Angels and having him on the A’s (at least for next year)? Is the difference more than 5 games? How much would you pay to ensure that Beltre on the Angels wouldn’t happen?
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Nov 15, 2010 5:01 PM PST up reply actions
Also, to the extent that anyone can EVER say that any player is quantifiably good at defense,
it is about Adrian Beltre, who has consistently turned in positive fielding stats, and gotten uniformly terrific reviews from scouts, for as long as anyone can remember.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
A thousand times this
a 2 win upgrade over Kouz AND keeping him away from LAA? Beltre is the most important FA out there this year for this reason alone.
fixed
a 2 win upgrade over Kouz AND keeping him away from LAA? Beltre is the most important FA out there this year for
this reason aloneus. Plus, he’s a year or two and $40-50 million cheaper than Crawford.
"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins
by justANotherAsFan on Nov 15, 2010 1:53 PM PST up reply actions
Beltre is also two years older than Crawford.
I’m still OK with signing him, but I’d want them to get a 3-4 WAR RF. Kahrl was touting Balentien as a NRI.
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2010 4:53 PM PST up reply actions
We are.
But at worst, Beltre will have Kouzmanoff’s top end upside as a 2-3 WAR player. And at best? Somewhere around 5-6.
This might be the last chance to buy on Beltre though
At least as a free agent, and if we traded for him later on, we’d still have to pay the big contract. It’s kind of now or never for Beltre and the A’s (unless they do a retread veteran thing five years down the line).
by UrgentMirth on Nov 14, 2010 10:39 PM PST up reply actions
If you're paying him $12 million,
you’re paying for him to hit less than he did last year already, so that’s not a problem.
Fantasy Sports Columnist for Big Cat Country
by CaliforniaJag on Nov 14, 2010 11:33 PM PST up reply actions
+1
I think you may be correct about this.
by LowcountryJoe on Nov 15, 2010 2:53 AM PST up reply actions
I think the A's can go $15 million annual or 5 years
I don’t think Beltre gets both.
The monster at the end of this blog.
I figure Beltre's definitely interested in 5 years...
Perhaps Nico’s 5/60 idea is the limit for the A’s.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Nov 14, 2010 8:55 PM PST up reply actions
It would certainly make his year in Boston pay off for him financially
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
do i want beltre? yes
do i want us to pay what it will take to get beltre? no
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones."
-BB 07/27/05
This is how I feel
Adrian Beltre is not going to come cheap. And Beltre will not come cheap as a progressively aging 32-year old. And the A’s are not a team that can absorb the blow of a contract that big failing.
the oakland athletics: hittin' ain't easy
by walk off bunt on Nov 14, 2010 10:05 PM PST up reply actions
and before anyone says "well it's not my money"
remember eric chavez
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones."
-BB 07/27/05
by xbhaskarx on Nov 14, 2010 10:28 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
(bows head)
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2010 3:01 AM PST up reply actions
He's aging really awesomely apparently though.
He was in the best 5 players in the AL (via WAR) last year. Paying for his age 32-36 seasons should interest the A’s greatly. He’s really really good at baseball and is being good all the time. Even when he’s not good, he’s Kouzmanoff. When he’s at his best, he’s MVP fodder. We cannot have the Angels get him either, they will leapfrog over us with ease.
See
I don’t know why that, at his worst, he’s Kouz, figures as a good thing. For one, we’re not paying Kouz 15 million a year to be Kouz, because Kouz stinks. But I obviously don’t doubt for one second that Beltre will clear that low hurdle. I’m more concerned with him clearing the significantly higher hurdle of justifying being paid upwards of 15 million a year.
Even if you grant him perfect health, he’s not exactly an easy guy to peg from year to year. All one can reasonably say with certainty is that, in Oakland, he certainly won’t hit like he did in Fenway, and, being good at baseball, he’s not particularly likely to repeat his 1.1 WAR performance of 2009.
But in between, what are you getting? You need more than 1.9 in 2005, and 2.7 in 2007. I don’t know the WAR to dollar conversions, but I suppose 3.5 in 2008 and 4.6 in 2006 would do it.
And even going back to his Dodger days, he’s not any kind of consistent. Which, I know, is kind of a stupid Joe Morgan buzzword, but it’s tough to compete in the random seasons where your major investment happens to be having his off years.
Then again, I can’t even find consistent WAR numbers between fangraphs and BB-ref, so I dunno. I like Beltre a lot as a ballplayer, I’m just worried his year-to-year flakiness will make it tough to justify the total – significant – investment it will take to land him.
the oakland athletics: hittin' ain't easy
by walk off bunt on Nov 15, 2010 1:20 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
The inconsistency between rWAR (CHONE used in BB-Ref) and fWAR (Fangraphs) is mostly because rWAR uses
TotalZone for defense and fWAR uses UZR. UZR is generally considered better because it considers difficulty of each play. TotalZone can be better since it uses both minor league and major league data, but with Beltre that’s not really a consideration.
I guess what I’m saying in a roundabout way is, why not just use fWAR?
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2010 3:05 AM PST up reply actions
Kouz was a 2.9 WAR 3B in 2009, that doesnt "stink"
I don’t know why that, at his worst, he’s Kouz, figures as a good thing. For one, we’re not paying Kouz 15 million a year to be Kouz, because Kouz stinks. But I obviously don’t doubt for one second that Beltre will clear that low hurdle. I’m more concerned with him clearing the significantly higher hurdle of justifying being paid upwards of 15 million a year.
Take away Kouz’s defense, and you take away the awesome raw numbers of our pitching, how is that so hard to see? Kouzmanoff has gotten better year by year his career WARs look like 2.5, 2.7, 2.7, 2.9. He simply does not “stink”. Now, 2.5 WAR is not worth $15MM a year I agree, but if Beltre has a couple of 4.5 WAR seasons like he has done for the large majority of his career over the 5 years, then it is.
Even if you grant him perfect health, he’s not exactly an easy guy to peg from year to year. All one can reasonably say with certainty is that, in Oakland, he certainly won’t hit like he did in Fenway, and, being good at baseball, he’s not particularly likely to repeat his 1.1 WAR performance of 2009.
Well first of all, he hit much WORSE at Fenway than on the road this year, his splits look like 881 at Fenway, 953 on the road. So that’s wrong. Secondly, I use fangraphs which had him at 2.5 WAR in 09, so I don’t buy he was a 1.1 player. He wasnt that bad and his defense is always great, a top 3 in the game.
But in between, what are you getting? You need more than 1.9 in 2005, and 2.7 in 2007. I don’t know the WAR to dollar conversions, but I suppose 3.5 in 2008 and 4.6 in 2006 would do it.
Again, this is personal preference but fangraphs has him at 2.5 in 05 and 3.0 in 07.
And even going back to his Dodger days, he’s not any kind of consistent. Which, I know, is kind of a stupid Joe Morgan buzzword, but it’s tough to compete in the random seasons where your major investment happens to be having his off years.
That’s my point, in his “off years” you get what Kouzmanoff does every year. The difference being is that Beltre has it in him to put up MVP numbers like he did in 04 and 2010, as well as very good ones like he did 08, 06 and 05. His awesomely awesome simply isnt going away anytime soon, and he will mash more often than not.
Then again, I can’t even find consistent WAR numbers between fangraphs and BB-ref, so I dunno. I like Beltre a lot as a ballplayer, I’m just worried his year-to-year flakiness will make it tough to justify the total – significant – investment it will take to land him.
Again, this doesnt even fully have to do with the upgrade over Kouz he would give us, thats only the half of it. Its blocking LAAA from getting him and allowing them to simply buy the 4-5 win upgrade over the garbage they put at 3rd this year. LAAA jumps over us if they get him, and we put ourselves further ahead of them if we do.
Also he only played 111 games in 2009 because he got hit by a pitch in the balls
His WAR would’ve been higher
""Expelliarmus!" said Eckstein, attempting to knock the bat out of Matt Kemp's hands, just before Kemp laced a single to center." -Ken Tremendous
I thought it was a bad-hop grounder
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Maybe...
I know he cracked a nut though lol
""Expelliarmus!" said Eckstein, attempting to knock the bat out of Matt Kemp's hands, just before Kemp laced a single to center." -Ken Tremendous
The nut cracker?
Sweet.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Well, I'm going to throw my hands up and concede on this one.
The fangraphs WAR numbers seem inflated to me, but I’m really in no position to argue against them with any authority.
the oakland athletics: hittin' ain't easy
by walk off bunt on Nov 15, 2010 1:52 PM PST up reply actions
I will, however, say
That this: "Take away Kouz’s defense, and you take away the awesome raw numbers of our pitching, how is that so hard to see? " seems like a bit of a stretch, considering how good Pennington, Ellis, Barton, and the outfielders generally are.
Take away Kouz’s defense, and you take away a fraction of the awesome raw numbers, but exactly how, is impossible to say.
the oakland athletics: hittin' ain't easy
by walk off bunt on Nov 15, 2010 1:57 PM PST up reply actions
15%
….oh you meant impossible to say accurately….
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2010 4:43 PM PST up reply actions
But without Kouz, you stretch the rest of the IF, making them all less effective.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 15, 2010 6:53 PM PST up reply actions
there is no evidence that INF defenders improve or inhibit the defense of others.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Nov 15, 2010 9:32 PM PST up reply actions
It seems very, very unsurprising to me
Maybe 1% of infield balls a. can be fielded by more than one infielder, and b. are not either obvious outs or obvious non-outs regardless of who fields them.
Actually I’d be surprised if it was even 1%. One a week, maybe.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
i think double plays is the one exception.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Nov 16, 2010 10:00 AM PST up reply actions
Has there been a study of situations like this one?
I can’t imagine there are enough significant samples to base one off of.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 16, 2010 8:46 AM PST up reply actions
please let us get rid of him for something decent
I have NO rooting interest. It simply become[s] a process of elimination of who I dislike less. - 67MARQUEZ
!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam
by cuppingmaster on Nov 15, 2010 9:50 AM PST up reply actions
I define "something decent" in this context as a 25-year-old reliever in Single-A ball
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
maybe we should just say "warm bodies"
I have NO rooting interest. It simply become[s] a process of elimination of who I dislike less. - 67MARQUEZ
!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam
by cuppingmaster on Nov 15, 2010 1:28 PM PST up reply actions
I would seriously consider trading Conor Jackson for a corpse, depending on whose corpse it was
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Ted Williams
minus the head?
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.
Doesn't even have to be a baseball player
Frankly, I was just hoping for one with some precious-metal dental fillings.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Who was the Phillies' star who said, when informed a teammate had been traded
“Great trade! who’d we get?”
"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins
by justANotherAsFan on Nov 15, 2010 1:57 PM PST up reply actions
Worse was when Brian Jordan was informed the Braves had acquired
Gary Sheffield. He thought it was awesome. Then he was told he was part of the trade.
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2010 5:05 PM PST up reply actions
Pulling this completely out of thin air
Do the A’s, Rockies and Marlins match up in a 3-way deal? The Rox want Jackson and covet Uggla, we like Hammel and the Marlins have a few “yes please!” players (Morrison, Hanley, Stanton) and need a CF and a 3B.
Something like:
A’s get: Hammel & Morrison
Rox get: Uggla, Jackson
Fish get: Fowler, Kouzmanoff, Sweeney & Cahill
This trade appears to be constructed under the mistaken impression that Logan Morrison is a third baseman
since otherwise it’s hard to see why you’d create a black hole at third and make your rotation worse just to get one cheap, relatively good hitter.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
EE at 3B, LM in RF?
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2010 4:45 PM PST up reply actions
Sorry, I have been championing signing Adrian Beltre all day
I forgot to add that here.
And there’s logic and reasoning to show that Hammel might be an upgrade over Cahill.
You're willing to give up four years of Cahill, three years of Sweeney, two years of Kouzmanoff, and one year of Jackson
Just for Hammel and Morrison?
He forgot to mention that the Rockies were throwing in a partridge in a pear tree
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
And a turtle dove who "just needs a change of scenery"
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
And an emu to be named later.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 15, 2010 6:55 PM PST up reply actions
Only if it has a pint glass rammed down its throat
Otherwise, deal’s off.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Morrison is pretty good. I'd actually do that, but then I place almost no value on arb
years of 2 WAR players…or Conor Jackson
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2010 4:46 PM PST up reply actions
Absolutely.
Morrison is kind of what we need, a cost controlled awesome hitting corner OF guy.
Please realize that I’m going out of my way to find scenarios that would appeal to the other team, while filling our needs. If I dont add Cahill there, does that deal get done? There’s no way FLA trades Morrison without getting a young possible star in return. Cahill fits that bill.
I'd do Cahill for Morrison any day of the week
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2010 5:03 PM PST up reply actions
Right, but they wouldnt.
You need to add something else they need to the mix and then they might not hang up on you.
Stupid smart Beinfest or whoever the GM is now.
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2010 5:06 PM PST up reply actions
Hill
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Nov 15, 2010 6:45 PM PST up reply actions
the only question Billy should be asking is
When do you want delivery?
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes
I am getting the sense that Kouz is not thought of highly be Beane and Co.
Just listened to the Slusser interview from last week on KNBR and she mentioned that Kouz’s defense didn’t look as good as advertised. This is contradictory to UZR and just about every other defensive metric. That said, my eyes kind of told me the same thing. He made the ruitine plays but he seems a little stiff and his range is nothing like Chavez’s… do any of you recall him diving to the foul line or over it to field a grounder and making the throw to first? And his odd throwing motion seems to cause some errant throws when he didn’t get a chance to set his feet well. Barton saved him many times. But the eye-ball test doesn’t mean much and I accept that.
But she also mentioned his chronic back issue and that it is not going anywhere. Maybe that scares the A’s more than we know.
Add to this, the E5 claim and the new reports that we are all-in on Beltre, and it just seems clear that Beane’s focus at the moment is exploring other options at 3B.
I still think E5 is around just to allow us to possibly make a move with Kouz prior to signing Beltre… its the safety net. Whatever happens I don’t see us offering Edwin arbitration… I could see a 2 year/$6M signing though.
I thought all of this last week as well, but I thought it was purely about Kouz’s offense and that Kouz still had a good chance of sticking around… Now I think Kouz may be gone unless everything else falls through.
Comparing him to Chavez is a little unfair
But I agree his throws are… frustrating to watch. I felt like Kouz was good on the tough hops and ranging to his left.
That said, Kouz is an attractive trade chip if we want to trade for an outfielder AND sign Beltre. It’s starting to look that may be plan A, with E5 as the plan B guy if we can’t land Beltre.
I have NO rooting interest. It simply become[s] a process of elimination of who I dislike less. - 67MARQUEZ
!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam
by cuppingmaster on Nov 15, 2010 1:05 PM PST up reply actions
Yea Chavez may be a bit much
But I see a lot of 3B make that play… I don’t see Kouz making too many tough plays to his right and still making the throw. But what I think doesn’t matter… my main point is that I am getting the impression that Beane may be thinking something similar or that his back may be a concern.
UZR
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2010 4:47 PM PST up reply actions
friendly?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Konerko is friendlier than Cust?
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2010 5:04 PM PST up reply actions
I think Cust is a pretty good dude.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 15, 2010 6:56 PM PST up reply actions
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