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Would a Trade for BJ Upton Make Sense?

It would appear from MLBtradeumors (courtesy Olney's insider article on ESPN) that "rivals" believe that BJ Upton is available in the right trade. It appears the Rays will be going through a mini-rebuild/restructure this off-season and so there is probably some truth to this rumor, in my opinion. With D Jennings coming on in center for the Rays and Matt Joyce/Zobrist in the mix for the outfield, there are some indications that the Rays could theoretically afford to lose Upton. Upton himself isn't the prototypical power guy it seems a lot of us are clamoring for, however, his ISO was at a pretty respectable clip last season (.187) and he's shown in the past that he can hit homers (2007 and 18 last year). He's also a speed demon and solid defender, so he seems to be a guy Beane might be eyeing.

Star-divide

So what do you think it would take to grab Upton? And along those lines, it certainly seems like Upton and Kemp are in similar situations (two years of arb/control left) and are somewhat similar players, so I'd like to open up the discussion to include ideas/proposals/thoughts on both of these guys.

Both the Rays and Dodgers in my opinion, have a need for a 1st baseman or an upgrade over what they currently have at the position - and particularly one that doesn't cost a lot - for differing reasons. Would they be interested in Chris Carter?

The Rays don't need starting pitching, but they could use relievers. The Dodgers need pitching in general. It's been awhile since I was a dedicated prospect-watcher, so I have no idea about the systems of the Dodgers and Rays...but judging from their big-league units and service time situations, they both could be in the market for middle infield help. Here are some ideas I have regarding possible trades:

Oak receives BJ Upton

TB receives Chris Carter, Henry Rodriguez & Adrian Cardenas

OR

Oak receives Matt Kemp

LAD receive Chris Carter, Rajai Davis, Adrian Cardenas & Henry Rodriguez

Something along those lines...

Is Chris Carter too much of bounty to give up for either of these guys? It certainly seems like he's not in the plans as an outfielder for the A's nor at 1st base immediately with Barton at the position. His future is probably as a DH and with the way DH's/veteran bats seem to be readily available, it may best to shop him around.

With either Kemp or Upton, the A's would definitely be aiming for the short-term and would obviously be taking chances on both the players returning to prior form in order to really pay big dividends. But both guys are potentially plus defenders in the outfield and have the tools and have shown the promise of being dynamic power/speed/run producers.

With an awesome pitching staff and defense, I feel that either guy could really make a big difference for this team in 2011 and 2012. Projected lineups:

2011:

CF - Crisp

1B - Barton

RF - Upton/Kemp

DH - Fill in the blank

LF - Dejesus

C - Suzuki

3B - Kouz

2B - Ellis

SS - Pennington

2012:

2B/CF - Weeks

1B - Barton

RF - Upton/Kemp

DH - Fill in the blank

LF - Corey Brown/Michael Taylor

C - Suzuki

3B - Green/Parker

2B - Sogard/Rosales/Ellis (extended)

SS - Pennington

Ideas/thoughts/concerns/lambastings?

Comment 342 comments  |  3 recs  | 

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Comments

Display:

I have always liked BJj Upton

but his performance at the plate over the last few years is worrisome

by OaklandSi on Nov 12, 2010 12:12 PM PST reply actions  

I'm skeptical

I don’t think it’s worth trading Carter to acquire another OF. Yes BJ Upton is good, but after DDJ, our OF is suddenly Crisp/DDJ/Upton, which admittedly is nice, but we’d have to do something about Davis/Swingles/Buck/Jackson. Plus, we already have quite the logjam, and if Taylor/Brown/Wimberley start to look ready I don’t know what we’d do.

We need bats, but I don’t know if Upton is the answer, especially if it involves trading Carter.

rebuildingseason.blogspot.com

by Rebuilding Season on Nov 12, 2010 12:14 PM PST reply actions  

Davis/Swingles/Buck/Jackson should NOT be any impediment on any acquisitions for this team. All of them are DFA worthy.

Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples

Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.

If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.

by DMOAS on Nov 12, 2010 12:34 PM PST up reply actions  

Davis/Swingles/Buck/Jackson should NOT be any impediment on any acquisitions for this team. All of them are DFA worthy.

Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples

Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.

If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.

by DMOAS on Nov 12, 2010 12:34 PM PST up reply actions  

BJ Upton's bad years really scare me.

He’s had two bad years in a row now, and his flyball percentage (and popup percentage) have steadily increased throughout his career…and somehow his power has fallen off of a cliff.

by danmerqury on Nov 12, 2010 12:18 PM PST reply actions  

The .187 ISO SLG isn't that bad. It's higher than 2008 and 2009. The IFFB is a worry though

since the Coliseum will give him all the help he needs on that front. I kinda like that he’s’ not hitting as many grounders, since his DPs will be limited.

His 114 wRC+ doesn’t sound like a bad 2010. The career 110 wRC+ in nearly 2800 PA by age 25 with excellent CF defense sounds awesome to me.

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 12, 2010 12:33 PM PST up reply actions  

So basically he has become Kurt Suzuki?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 12, 2010 5:18 PM PST up reply actions  

3.5-4 war cf, so a bit better than Kurt

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 13, 2010 6:26 AM PST via mobile up reply actions  

I meant as a hitter.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 13, 2010 9:02 AM PST up reply actions  

No, Upton is a much better hitter than Suzuki.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Nov 13, 2010 9:16 AM PST up reply actions  

Oh no, Kurt has a career 94 wRC+ and is a year older

Kurt’s ability to catch is what gets him close to Upton

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 13, 2010 9:20 AM PST up reply actions  

No no no no no

You’re both on a different page from what I was trying to say. I was just joking that a hitter who has suddenly alarming IFFB ratios and seems to be getting worse each year, sounds a lot like our bemoanings about Suzuki.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 13, 2010 11:39 AM PST up reply actions  

Ah, in that case he's exactly like Kurt

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 13, 2010 4:12 PM PST up reply actions  

I love Henry but I'd do that trade for Upton in a heartbeat. I'd try to substitute Wuertz though.

I wouldn’t trade Carter for Kemp though. Having Kemp for 2 years isn’t worth giving up someone with Carter’s power potential.

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 12, 2010 12:28 PM PST reply actions  

Agreed

Take Carter out of that equation, and I’m still in the Kemp Camp!

"By the end of the year, I'll have Dallas throwing right-handed'' -Ben Sheets

by mrod on Nov 12, 2010 12:33 PM PST up reply actions  

Understood.

But without Carter in the mix, I don’t think that the Dodgers would want anything from the A’s. They don’t seem interested in low-level arms or raw position players.

I'm never gonna do it without the fez on!

by Taj Adib on Nov 12, 2010 12:35 PM PST up reply actions  

It might require further investigation then...

I don’t think Beane would be willing to let goof Carter unless he got a slam dunk in return, someone like a, dare I say it, Ryan Braun?

"By the end of the year, I'll have Dallas throwing right-handed'' -Ben Sheets

by mrod on Nov 12, 2010 12:38 PM PST up reply actions  

Whoops! My bad...

“let go of Carter”……

"By the end of the year, I'll have Dallas throwing right-handed'' -Ben Sheets

by mrod on Nov 12, 2010 12:38 PM PST up reply actions  

we'd still have to

trade anderson or cahill in a braun deal, most likely.

"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball

by flipgatey3 on Nov 12, 2010 12:45 PM PST up reply actions  

Oh yeah, for sure

I’m just saying that my guess would be that Billy Beane doesn’t include Chris Carter in any deal that isn’t “Fucking A!”….know what I mean?

"By the end of the year, I'll have Dallas throwing right-handed'' -Ben Sheets

by mrod on Nov 12, 2010 12:48 PM PST up reply actions  

certainly

"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball

by flipgatey3 on Nov 17, 2010 11:52 AM PST up reply actions  

You mean like Rajai Davis.

Oh, and Casey Blake sucks. Hey, we have Encarnacion. and Kouz.

hmmmmmmmm

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Nov 12, 2010 2:05 PM PST up reply actions  

If Beane can flip Rajai and a waiver claim into Matt Kemp

Then I will not tolerate any Beane bashing on this site ever again.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 12, 2010 2:35 PM PST up reply actions   5 recs

Rec'd

I laughed pretty heartily.

rebuildingseason.blogspot.com

by Rebuilding Season on Nov 12, 2010 3:04 PM PST up reply actions  

I agree with this.

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Nov 12, 2010 3:26 PM PST up reply actions  

Beane drafting Jeremy Brown over Joey Votto and Brian McCann

makes me want to slam my head into a car door until I don’t know what baseball is anymore and need a carer to help me eat my applesauce. I love Billy, but my god he has made as epic blunders as anyone. He also is responsible for making the team way more awesome that it would have been under any other GM from 98-06, so I’ll never bash him with no mercy. Love him, but even a Raj+E5 for Kemp trade won’t fix his mistakes.

by PL78 on Nov 13, 2010 12:19 AM PST up reply actions  

Again, drafting Brown in the supplemental first wasn't based on skill

It was based on money. The A’s simply weren’t going to spend the money to have seven first round picks. Votto and McCann wouldn’t have fit in budget even if Beane loved both.

"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton

by vignette17 on Nov 13, 2010 2:36 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Thank you

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 13, 2010 6:28 AM PST up reply actions  

As an example...

Dan Meyer was drafted one slot ahead of Brown. It took $1,000,000.00 to sign Meyer while it only took $350K to sign Brown. By the way, Meyer has a career era of 5.49 while Brown has a career OPS of .864. ;-)

by Hang Man on Nov 14, 2010 9:16 AM PST up reply actions  

I agree.

But with 20/20 hindsight, the draft is an area where the A’s have to be willing to overspend, because they can afford to do so on that scale.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Nov 14, 2010 7:50 PM PST up reply actions  

I pity your car door

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 13, 2010 6:28 AM PST up reply actions  

I don't think you realize how iffy drafting in the MLB actually is.

This isn’t the NFL. Only 60-something% of first rounders even sniff the majors, and less than half become regulars. After the first round? It’s much, much less.

by danmerqury on Nov 13, 2010 7:37 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

I agree with that

but Brown was an nobodys radar. Billy could have had him in much later rounds. I know the draft is the biggest crapshoot of them all, but this was as near-sighted as the Holliday trade or the Loaiza contract.

by PL78 on Nov 13, 2010 9:18 AM PST up reply actions  

Now I look at it actually

Swisher, Blanton, McCurdy, Fritz, Brown, Obenchain & Teahen is a pretty great success rate.

I guess its just a bummer we couldnt afford Votto, McCann, Cain or Hamels….

by PL78 on Nov 13, 2010 9:25 AM PST up reply actions  

They got some other major leaguers out of that draft too

John Baker’s been alright with the Marlins, and Jared Burton’s been a decent relief pitcher.

It wasn’t a capital-H Haul, but it was certainly a successful draft class.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Nov 13, 2010 10:48 AM PST up reply actions  

Sure, just with Swisher and Blanton it was successful.

Deliberately drafting players that you don’t believe to be the best really rubs me the wrong way.

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 13, 2010 11:11 AM PST up reply actions  

It wasn't about drafting the player at #35 they believed to be the best

It was about drafting the player they thought was the best that they could afford at $350K.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 13, 2010 11:20 AM PST up reply actions  

Yes, that's what rubs me the wrong way

There’s no way you can convince me that they maximized shareholder value by setting the budget at $350K

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 13, 2010 4:13 PM PST up reply actions  

well its on Schoffman

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Nov 13, 2010 6:36 PM PST up reply actions  

It sure is

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 13, 2010 7:07 PM PST up reply actions  

You miss the point

The A’s had to take somebody with that pick. Because they were drafting on a ridiculously small budget they had to take someone who’d sign for well below slot. Votto would not have signed for $350K like Brown did.

Any player they picked that would’ve signed for $350K as the 35th pick in the draft would’ve been someone who most teams would have looked at as someone to target much later in the draft.

If you really want to bitch about one of the draft picks, complain that the A’s spent $725K on Mark Teahen with the 39th pick in the draft instead of grabbing Votto. Votto signed at the top of the 2nd round for $600K.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 13, 2010 9:28 AM PST up reply actions  

oh, I get it....

Yeah maybe its misplaced about Brown and should be about Teahen, but why did they spend more money on a pick after Brown?

by PL78 on Nov 13, 2010 9:34 AM PST up reply actions  

Probably because they knew Brown would sign for a set amount

whereas Teahen might demand more if they picked him higher.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Nov 13, 2010 10:52 AM PST up reply actions  

I believe that very thing is explained in Moneyball

"By the end of the year, I'll have Dallas throwing right-handed'' -Ben Sheets

by mrod on Nov 13, 2010 12:19 PM PST up reply actions  

Total specualtion

But Moneyball implied that the A’s promised to draft Brown at #35. Maybe it was a prestige thing.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 13, 2010 11:11 AM PST up reply actions  

Also Jeremy Brown would have been a good back up catcher which was great value for that pick.

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Nov 13, 2010 8:28 AM PST up reply actions  

This concept that fringe major leaguers are great values for a first round pick is absolute hogwash

It may be true that the average WAR for a first round pick is lower than the average WAR for a fringe major leaguer, but that’s absolutely irrelevant.

If you got a really got a fringe major leaguer with all your picks throughout the draft you’d be stunningly successful by your standard and your team would win 50 games every year and you’d finish last in attendance and TV ratings every year.

The right way to judge a draft in hindsight is based on the total WAA of the draftees, and if you want to, you can look at total WAAS (Wins Above All-Star, 4-5 Wins) you get. That’s what wins pennants, that’s what fans come out to see.

Nobody cares about backup catchers.

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 13, 2010 9:25 AM PST up reply actions  

And none of the players who projected to be better than that would have signed for the amount they had available for the pick

You could also trade all of your fringe major leaguers for something good. Also the Giants have an offense of fringe major leaguers and look what they just did.

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Nov 13, 2010 10:02 AM PST up reply actions  

You could trade your 42 extra fringe players for something good

only if you had a very stupid trade partner.

The Giants had a terrible offense that played over its head in the postseason. The reason they’re World Series Champs isn’t Edgar Renteria and Aaron Rowand, it’s Tim Lincecum, Matt Cain and Buster Posey.

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 13, 2010 10:23 AM PST up reply actions  

the second part was a joke and GMs trade for back up catchers all the time.

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Nov 13, 2010 6:49 PM PST up reply actions  

Sure, you could have a team of them and call it the Pirates

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 13, 2010 7:08 PM PST up reply actions  

GMs care about backup catchers

Isn’t it kind of obvious that you’re misevaluating players when your “system” leads you to reject things that all major league teams, even the smart ones, do?

GMs care about #3 starters and solid-but-unexceptional corner outfielders. A roster built to your specifications would pretty much look like the Diamondbacks. They’ve got (or at least had, before dealing Haren) multiple star players, yet the team is horrible.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Nov 13, 2010 10:58 AM PST up reply actions  

I agree that the '80s Expos, '90s Mariners and '00s Mets could

have used more average players to supplement their stars.

But I also believe that unless you have a method of getting star players — whether through the Draft, International FA, or regular FA, you’re never going to draw a lot of fans.

At last Beane seems to have realized this and has obtained top International FAs and has stopped drafting Jeremy Brown in the 1st Round, rather has gone over slot for Brett Hunter and Dustin Coleman. Whether it works or not is a matter of execution, but the strategy change is most welcome

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 13, 2010 11:10 AM PST up reply actions  

Obviously "not spending money" is worse than "spending money"

The decision to not spend any money on amateur player acquisition was, we know, made by the ownership.

As far as spending the money on players with supposed “upside,” though… well, frankly, so far I’m totally unimpressed. Most of those guys have turned out to be complete garbage.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Nov 13, 2010 11:12 AM PST up reply actions  

Yes, when you spend on upside you'll have a lower hit rate

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 13, 2010 11:14 AM PST up reply actions  

It has nothing to do with Beane he doesn't set the budget.

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Nov 13, 2010 7:03 PM PST up reply actions  

Wuertz costs money

If I’m them, I’m asking for DLS as the bullpen arm.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Nov 12, 2010 2:46 PM PST up reply actions  

Me too

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 13, 2010 5:07 AM PST via mobile up reply actions  

Of course, youre an upside whore.

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Nov 13, 2010 8:29 AM PST up reply actions  

so do I

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Nov 13, 2010 10:03 AM PST up reply actions  

Im the tank in june guy remember?

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Nov 13, 2010 7:04 PM PST up reply actions  

Sorry, I forgot

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 13, 2010 7:08 PM PST up reply actions  

In an earlier conversation at D'Ray's Bay

Folks thought that a Bailey/Green package either got the deal done or came awfully close to doing so.

Upton loses a lot of value if he isn’t playing CF. Just switching him from CF to RF costs you 10 runs due to the position penalty. Figure he’s worth +5 runs defensively in CF and that means he’d have to be a +15 defender in the corner just to break even, all ’cause you bumped him out of CF in favor of Crisp.

So, whatever package you favor, I suggest shopping Crisp to the losers of the Upton bidding war.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 12, 2010 12:35 PM PST reply actions  

"Just switching him from CF to RF costs you 10 runs due to the position penalty"

This isn’t the way it works.

"It’s ideal if your hobby and your living can merge. But you are not going to stop your hobby if you can’t make money out of it. Your hobby is all about trading time for enjoyment. My job is what I do. My hobby is who I am." -Tango

by notsellingjeans on Nov 12, 2010 1:09 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Yes but you gain 10 runs by comparing him to other RF, no?

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 12, 2010 1:10 PM PST up reply actions  

Not necessarily.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 12, 2010 1:11 PM PST up reply actions  

No, not necessarily, but on average over a large population?

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 12, 2010 1:35 PM PST up reply actions  

On average over a large population, it's probably more like +7 or +8

Keep in mind that corner OF get fewer total chances.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Nov 12, 2010 2:47 PM PST up reply actions  

Then that should be the adjustment, no

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 13, 2010 7:53 AM PST via mobile up reply actions  

No, because moving a bad corner OF to CF will cost you 12 or 13 runs

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Nov 13, 2010 11:00 AM PST up reply actions  

Ah, so the 10 is the rough average of 7-8 and 12-13?

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 13, 2010 11:06 AM PST up reply actions  

Yeah, more or less

+/- 10 is in the middle of the range. It’s what you’d see if you moved a guy who was around the 30th best of the 90 starting outfielders in the majors to or from CF. At his talent level it is indifferent whether you play him in CF or a corner. More talented players you want to put in center; less talented guys you want in a corner.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Nov 13, 2010 11:29 AM PST up reply actions  

Yes it is

If you play a SS at 1B their WAR goes down because the position adjusters change.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 12, 2010 1:11 PM PST up reply actions  

Yes but they are being compared to much worse defenders. It's supposed to even out

unless the player has a peculiar skill set

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 12, 2010 1:13 PM PST up reply actions  

It is not supposed to zero out

It is likely that the hit will be mitigated, but the adjustment isn’t supposed to make a player equally valuable at either position.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 12, 2010 1:15 PM PST up reply actions  

That's basically what grover is saying
Just switching him from CF to RF costs you 10 runs due to the position penalty. Figure he’s worth +5 runs defensively in CF and that means he’d have to be a +15 defender in the corner just to break even

You’re saying you think he would go from +5 to +10-13, which is possible but not guaranteed. But that’s exactly the same procedure grover is pointing to.

I don’t care to debate where the line between “lots” and “not lots” of value is.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 12, 2010 1:26 PM PST up reply actions  

And yet, two years later

FanGraphs is still setting the position adjust for COF at -7.5 and CF at +2.5.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 12, 2010 1:26 PM PST up reply actions  

I know FanGraphs uses a fixed value for position adjusters

Any chance that Baseball-Referrence does it differently?

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 12, 2010 1:20 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm curious how desperate they will be to replace Soriano

If they feel they really need a good closer, this might be the time to dangle Bailey and see what we can get…

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Nov 13, 2010 12:49 PM PST up reply actions  

Bailey for Upton!

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 13, 2010 4:14 PM PST up reply actions  

How will Matt Kemp or BJ Upton respond to Bob Geren?

That’s the question I keep coming back to in my mind. I don’t know the answer, and I don’t know that it matters. But it’s something I think about.

Neither Kemp nor Upton has a perfect reputation. Both have had (at least mild) concerns about work ethic.

"It’s ideal if your hobby and your living can merge. But you are not going to stop your hobby if you can’t make money out of it. Your hobby is all about trading time for enjoyment. My job is what I do. My hobby is who I am." -Tango

by notsellingjeans on Nov 12, 2010 12:45 PM PST reply actions  

And then Coco takes over....!

:)

"By the end of the year, I'll have Dallas throwing right-handed'' -Ben Sheets

by mrod on Nov 12, 2010 12:47 PM PST up reply actions  

But me loves me some "No Como"....

I would not be in favor of trading for Upton just to trade Crisp….

Coco, if he can stop breaking his pinkies, is awesome in CF, and I really just love his game. Now if you’re talking about moving De Jesus over to RF and putting Upton in LF then you might be on to something.

A change of scenery for Upton might help him turn things around, though.

"By the end of the year, I'll have Dallas throwing right-handed'' -Ben Sheets

by mrod on Nov 12, 2010 12:46 PM PST reply actions  

As for Kemp...

I realize a lot of people are worried about Carter’s glove. And he did struggle at the start of his first full season of AAA. But this is also a guy with mammoth power who has shown the repeated ability to make adjustments while in the minors. He hit 319/421/637 in 135 AB for the River Cats in the 2nd half of 2010. I agree he might not be ready for Oakland on Opening Day but he should be one of the last prospects in the system the A’s should even consider trading.

Matt Kemp is an incredibly talented athlete whose play has been inconcsistent and whose prodcution has been largely based on his ability to post high a BABIP. He doesn’t walk much (he’s never posted a season with even an 8% walk rate. His defensive play in CF has been inconsistent. I realize there’s a price to pay for his potential but the original offer seems excessive given the lack of certainty in the production.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 12, 2010 12:48 PM PST reply actions  

You said it perfectly grover....

"By the end of the year, I'll have Dallas throwing right-handed'' -Ben Sheets

by mrod on Nov 12, 2010 12:49 PM PST up reply actions  

Yup.

Definitely not ready for the show right now. But he will be. And when he is, I want him swinging that bat for the A’s.

Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples

Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.

If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.

by DMOAS on Nov 12, 2010 1:05 PM PST up reply actions  

Me too

That kind of power will be increasingly rare – and expensive

by OaklandSi on Nov 12, 2010 5:06 PM PST via mobile up reply actions  

Not Sure

I have not been that impressed with BJ Upton in recent years. 2 years ago, I think I would have been very interested in a trade for him. Right now, I still am intrigued by the chance he could turn it around and be productive, I just am not sure that I would give all that much up for him.

by longtimeasfan on Nov 12, 2010 12:50 PM PST reply actions  

WTF?

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 12, 2010 1:00 PM PST up reply actions  

Agreed

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 12, 2010 1:14 PM PST up reply actions  

There is no way Upton is worth less than Kemp IMO

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Nov 12, 2010 1:09 PM PST reply actions  

Even if you throw in Rajai for Upton, I'd do that deal in a heartbeat, and

even if you subtracted him from the Kemp deal, I wouldn’t do it

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 12, 2010 1:11 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah I see where you are going. I don't think Rajai is a significant piece, but I think the Upton deal is light.

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Nov 12, 2010 3:28 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't like the thought of trading for BJ Upton and I REALLY do not like the thought of going head to head with Friedman in a trade

It’s like sitting down at a poker game with Phil Ivey. You might think you’re up to the challenge but the smart move is to steer clear and play with the fishes instead.

As for Upton, he’s just not as good as the hype made him out to be. There are only marginally worse options available in the corners for far lower cost. The proposed trade would be Holliday 2.0.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Nov 12, 2010 2:53 PM PST reply actions  

I don't really like him either.

Not impressed with his contact skills and his walk rate is pretty average. Pretty much all he has going for him, hitting wise, right now is power…which is affected by a move to Oakland.

"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."

by lenscrafters on Nov 12, 2010 3:10 PM PST up reply actions  

Yes!

He’s a headcase. Longoria got all over him IIRC for dogging it. I think it’s natural that on a team sporting a great won-lost record over a few years, all the players are overvalued, possibly even by those who plot UZR.

WINZ!

That’s (the overvaluing of players from winners) part of why I’m so pleased with the DdJ trade, as opposed to tying up $120 mill/6 years for Carl Crawford. I spent a little time looking at Crawford’s offensive numbers vs. deJesus’, and Crawford’s career OBP is .337, which is in Rajai territory! As long as deJesus is an adequate fielder as a COF, he’s a better choice than Crawford as a COF, who will get on base much more often than Crawford, has a little power. Now, Crawford as a CF, that’s different. But we have a more than adequate (if extremely fragile) CF, who doesn’t have the arm for a COF position, so Crawford would have been a COF on A’s.

"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins

by justANotherAsFan on Nov 12, 2010 4:52 PM PST up reply actions  

If Raj had Crawford's power no one here would be complaining about him.

Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples

Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.

If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.

by DMOAS on Nov 13, 2010 10:23 AM PST up reply actions  

I really don't like BJ Upton

that guys always looks like he gives no effort at all. Drives me crazy. Pass.

"You ain't got nothin to say, it was perfect" -Dallas Braden, 05/09/10

by MissOakland on Nov 12, 2010 3:10 PM PST reply actions  

Yeah, you'd have to consider the headcase factor...

"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."

by lenscrafters on Nov 12, 2010 3:24 PM PST up reply actions  

I know my arguement can't argue with stats

but I watched every game of the Rangers vs. Rays playoffs and could not stand watching him half-ass run trot his way to the ball

"You ain't got nothin to say, it was perfect" -Dallas Braden, 05/09/10

by MissOakland on Nov 12, 2010 3:31 PM PST up reply actions  

I think you're a top prospect. I'm no Sickels, but I'd give you an A-

One year of intensely watching ball and you already can judge a player’s effort or lack thereof!

I’m not being sarcastic.

"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins

by justANotherAsFan on Nov 12, 2010 4:39 PM PST up reply actions  

Well thank you

I appreciate that :)

"You ain't got nothin to say, it was perfect" -Dallas Braden, 05/09/10

by MissOakland on Nov 12, 2010 5:31 PM PST up reply actions  

This sounds like what would be on the inside of a licensed Billy Beane themed greeting card.

Front Cover: Hey there, slugger! Happy birthday!
Inside: I think you’re a top prospect! I’m no Sickels, but I’d give you an A-! (Fill in the blank) years of intensely watching ball and you already can judge a player’s effort or lack thereof!

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 12, 2010 11:54 PM PST up reply actions  

LOL

let’s get an AN line of hallmark cards started

Cover: Good job buddy!
Inside: Now GTFO!

"You ain't got nothin to say, it was perfect" -Dallas Braden, 05/09/10

by MissOakland on Nov 13, 2010 3:09 PM PST up reply actions  

You're supposed to say

“He isn’t half as hot as coco!!!!!!!”

:)

"By the end of the year, I'll have Dallas throwing right-handed'' -Ben Sheets

by mrod on Nov 12, 2010 5:05 PM PST up reply actions  

no hetero

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 12, 2010 5:21 PM PST up reply actions  

OOPS okay real analysis

Ummm like hello Sweeney is so super way hotterer!!!

"You ain't got nothin to say, it was perfect" -Dallas Braden, 05/09/10

by MissOakland on Nov 12, 2010 5:30 PM PST up reply actions  

Much better MO

“clap, clap, clap, clap, clap…”

"By the end of the year, I'll have Dallas throwing right-handed'' -Ben Sheets

by mrod on Nov 12, 2010 5:49 PM PST up reply actions  

Thank you, I try my best

becuzz ommg! Coco is juss so totes cool!! He tweets!!!!!

"You ain't got nothin to say, it was perfect" -Dallas Braden, 05/09/10

by MissOakland on Nov 12, 2010 5:57 PM PST up reply actions  

Swingles swings a small stick, though, no matter how hotterer he is

no hetero

no homo

just onano

"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins

by justANotherAsFan on Nov 12, 2010 5:49 PM PST up reply actions  

No, bro, Swingo no onano. No homo, all hetero, no Coco.

Swingo make money. Swingo am wealthy. Swingo get laid.

(for some reason it turned into Bizarro at the end.)

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Nov 12, 2010 11:56 PM PST up reply actions  

I'd rather do the Dodgers deal

But throw Carter out of the trade. WAY too much for a potentially bust-worthy guy in Kemp. They can have Ross instead. You could make the argument that Cardenas, Davis, and HRod could indeed get that done anyway with the NCF involved.

I have NO rooting interest. It simply become[s] a process of elimination of who I dislike less. - 67MARQUEZ
!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam

by cuppingmaster on Nov 12, 2010 5:24 PM PST reply actions  

As down as some may be on Carter overall,

the A’s rarely have a hitter with 40HR potential. Carter has that. We need to see it through, IMO.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 12, 2010 5:38 PM PST up reply actions   3 recs

Canseco and McGwire were the last

to come through the system that proved out the 40-HR potential. I don’t think miggy, Giambi, Chavez were ever considered 30+ HRs, years in a row, when they began in the minors.

Unless he’s the next Edgar Martinez, Carter has to come out of winter ball much improved in the outfield, though.

Officially awaiting the 2011 MLB season

by One won lost won on Nov 12, 2010 5:44 PM PST up reply actions  

Agreed

Carter is the one untouchable guy in our system IMO.

You know you are big-time when people chant your name while you pee. - 67MARQUEZ

by bakerbeachboy on Nov 12, 2010 5:51 PM PST up reply actions  

hahahaha no.

No one in our system is even close to being good enough to be untouchable.

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Nov 13, 2010 8:31 AM PST up reply actions  

Although Green's ZiPS projection gives me pause

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 13, 2010 9:44 AM PST up reply actions  

Hes closest probably and I don't even like him that much.

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Nov 13, 2010 10:07 AM PST up reply actions  

Yes, he's no Evan Longoria

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 13, 2010 10:21 AM PST up reply actions  

That's why I added "IMO"

It’s not that Carter is some A+ prospect. It’s the potential he has, that I personally would want to give him a chance to fulfill in an A’s uni. To me, Carter is a straight DH. The A’s are wasting their time trying to turn him into a contributor on the defensive side of the ball. Let him focus on hitting and learning to be comfortable in the DH role.

Due to the A’s lack of power, he holds a lot of potential value to this team that I wouldn’t want to give up.

You know you are big-time when people chant your name while you pee. - 67MARQUEZ

by bakerbeachboy on Nov 13, 2010 7:14 PM PST up reply actions  

This isn't a bad idea

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 13, 2010 7:16 PM PST up reply actions  

Yup....

Can’t wait to see him blow it up at Fenway…..can you imagine the call?

Korach: Carter swings, hits it waaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyy back, the Green Monster is hitching a ride to Connecticut…gone, a home run!"

"By the end of the year, I'll have Dallas throwing right-handed'' -Ben Sheets

by mrod on Nov 12, 2010 5:51 PM PST up reply actions  

Yes.

We have to take that chance that Carter turns out to be a bust. But if he turns into that 40HR guy he is invaluable to the Team. Big risk, but one we have to take.

"Carter's 25-game hitting streak isn't any normal streak. He's 46 for 97 (.474 average) during the run, adding 16 walks and compiling 81 total bases in the process. I'm out of superlatives for what he's doing." - Kevin Goldstein

by Syphon on Nov 12, 2010 6:05 PM PST up reply actions  

sliders low and away

Carter = BoCro?

"We lose to Stanford in many sports, but if you want to make a Cal team quit, bring a weapon."
--Coach Clark

by carp on Nov 12, 2010 9:09 PM PST up reply actions  

Anyone who wants to trade Carter

should have their mental health evaluated

by Trainman on Nov 12, 2010 9:20 PM PST up reply actions  

Carter started to adjust on those sliders in just a short amount of time in the majors

It might always be a hole, but I don’t think it’s going to be nearly as much of an issue as it was with Crosby, who not only didn’t fix it, but apparently didn’t even think there was a problem.

www.zekeishungry.com

by thejd44 on Nov 13, 2010 12:23 PM PST up reply actions  

Let's face it: Tough sliders down and away

are pretty a much hole for 99% of batters. Carter’s “adjustment” curve has been pretty good so far.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 13, 2010 2:38 PM PST up reply actions  

Yes I like him as a hitter. As a fielder.....he's a good hitter.

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 13, 2010 4:15 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

++++++++!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You go Neekster!

"By the end of the year, I'll have Dallas throwing right-handed'' -Ben Sheets

by mrod on Nov 13, 2010 11:14 PM PST up reply actions  

Id much rather have Kemp than Upton.

That being said, Im not trading Chris Carter either.

"Carter's 25-game hitting streak isn't any normal streak. He's 46 for 97 (.474 average) during the run, adding 16 walks and compiling 81 total bases in the process. I'm out of superlatives for what he's doing." - Kevin Goldstein

by Syphon on Nov 12, 2010 6:04 PM PST reply actions  

I think the answer to Taj's headline is "Yes" --

It makes sense. Not sure I want to do it, but there are only a handful of guys out there who have truly high upside and might be available right now for relatively little return, and Upton is one of them (Kemp is another).

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 12, 2010 6:35 PM PST reply actions  

A vociferous "NOOOOOOOOOOOO" to any deal for BJ Upton...

…for the simple reason that he is EXACTLY the same player he was when he broke in with TB. He has not improved AT ALL in any way as a result of all that experience and first-rate coaching. As a NRAF living in South Florida, I’ve seen him play quite a bit these last few years. His approach at the plate is maddening…he has no clue how to work a count in order to see a hitter’s pitch, so he always ends up striking out on the pitcher’s best pitch. In Oaktown, with our collection of nobodies hitting behind him, he might K 220 times a year. Don’t we already have about 5 players just like him, and haven’t at least some of them improved over the course of their careers? BJ Upton? No Thanx.

by kitoko on Nov 12, 2010 7:55 PM PST reply actions  

Kemp is probably the better target...

if the consensus is that we should not include Carter. The Rays have failed to get strong production from their DH the past couple of years so, coupled w/ the fact that Pena is a FA, I can only assume that any conversation would start with him. LA probably would like to upgrade from Loney but, given their needs, I am sure they would be more willing to construct a deal that would involve other pieces. A deal that I think would be equitable and satisfy both sides would maybe be something like this.

M. Taylor, R. Davis, J. Donaldson and T. Ross for Matt Kemp

Assuming this trade would satisfy the Dodgers demands, The A’s, IMO, should then proceed to kick the tires on what it would take to pry Gordon Beckham from the White Sox. Obviously, he had a very forgettable 2010 and with reports (those being of the “always reliable” ESPN Insider variety) that the white sox might be willing to entertain offers for him it might be a good opportunity to buy low on a quality young player who is cost-controlled. If the A’s were to offer:

Grant Green, Henry Rodriguez and Corey Brown for Beckham

That deal would be one that, IMO, would provide enticing value for the White Sox w/out severely damaging our farm system— in light of these two proposed trades. We would still have our two biggest potential offensive prospects in Carter and Choice and would have kept potentially our best pitching prospect in Krol as well as our best catching prospect in Stassi. Adding a player like Beckham would alleviate any concerns about trading Green as it is at least as likely that Beckham will bounce back as it is that Green will actually reach his potential. Losing Rodriguez hurts but the A’s have certainly shown that they are capable of mitigating the loss of a strong reliever. I don’t know if picking up Encarnacion would hurt the prospects of a trade like this occurring but I’m assuming it wouldn’t if Beane felt strongly enough about Beckham.

Subsequent to these two trades, the A’s could sign one of the many veteran FA options to serve as DH until Carter was ready to step in fulltime. Personally, If I were the A’s, I’d sign Dunn to be the DH and keep Carter down in AAA in hopes he figures out how to play a corner outfield position adequately. With that lineup, we would suddenly have a very dynamic and threatening offensive unit that could beat you in multiple ways.

1. Crisp CF
2. Barton 1B
3. Kemp RF
4. Dunn DH
5. DeJesus LF
6. Beckham 3B
7. Suzuki C
8. Ellis 2B
9. Penny SS

After all that, the A’s would have still managed to add the necessary power bats, maintain a strong defensive unit, maintain a relatively strong farm system, and stay w/in their payroll limits. If Carter develops into a serviceable defensive outfielder, it would make it easier for the A’s to allow DeJesus to walk after this year. Even if he fails to develop defensively, but reaches his potential offensively, we could easily deal Dunn and relieve ourselves of his contract. If he flat out busts, we still have the 40 home run threat we desperately need in our lineup, in Dunn.

by infinitejest on Nov 12, 2010 9:03 PM PST reply actions  

way too much
M. Taylor, R. Davis, J. Donaldson and T. Ross for Matt Kemp

I would only put in one of Taylor or Donaldson. Even then… I would think he could be had for less.

I have NO rooting interest. It simply become[s] a process of elimination of who I dislike less. - 67MARQUEZ
!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam

by cuppingmaster on Nov 12, 2010 9:24 PM PST up reply actions  

Really? I didn't think so.

Kemp has two years left on his contract. Meanwhile, Taylor has been more busty lately than Dolly Parton, Ross has been injured, Rajai Davis is a 4th OFer, and Donaldson is a tweener prospect with no track record.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 12, 2010 9:34 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah...

 Id do that trade. As longas LA threw in a B level prospect. Outta all them Id prob only miss Taylor.

"Carter's 25-game hitting streak isn't any normal streak. He's 46 for 97 (.474 average) during the run, adding 16 walks and compiling 81 total bases in the process. I'm out of superlatives for what he's doing." - Kevin Goldstein

by Syphon on Nov 12, 2010 9:40 PM PST up reply actions  

If LA offered that trade as is, I'd do it.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 12, 2010 9:41 PM PST up reply actions  

Before they changed their minds

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 13, 2010 5:14 AM PST via mobile up reply actions  

Donaldson has a pretty good track record.

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Nov 13, 2010 8:32 AM PST up reply actions  

compared to most catchers he does

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Nov 13, 2010 10:08 AM PST up reply actions  

We'll have to agree to disagree on this.

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 13, 2010 10:20 AM PST up reply actions  

I'll anticipate nevermoor and insert the requisite "please stop mentioning Adam Dunn, he makes absolutely no sense" post here

Also, by my grading, after that trade you’ve got zero players with a grade higher than B and at most 8 ranking better than C+ in the entire A’s farm system (using grades equivalent to those John Sickels gives out). That’s probably not the worst in baseball, but it’s got to be in the bottom 5.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Nov 12, 2010 9:59 PM PST up reply actions  

Thanks

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 12, 2010 10:11 PM PST up reply actions  

Bossman Jr Upton = not interested.

Justin Upton = would trade back BA+Carter for.

by PL78 on Nov 13, 2010 12:24 AM PST reply actions  

The Uptons are not as far apart as you think

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 13, 2010 5:19 AM PST via mobile up reply actions  

CHONE projection: BJ 3.8 WAR, Justin 3.6

Justin ages 22-23, 7.7 WAR in 1159 PA, or 4.0 WAR per 600 PA

BJ ages 22-23, 3.6 WAR in 737 PA, or 2.9 WAR per 600 PA, but he did get 4.2 WAR at age 23 while Justin had 3.1

BJ ages 23-26, 14.5 WAR in 2424 PA or 3.6 WAR per 600 PA

BJ’s best (not closest) PECOTA comps include Duke Snider and Andy Van Slyke, while Justin’s include Tony Conigliaro and Chili Davis

BJ is clearly the better defender and Justin clearly the better hitter. Justin is likely to have the higher peak in his career, and I think he’ll do better than 3.6 WAR, but BJ is right behind him in my view. I basically think of Justin as a 4-4.5 WAR player and BJ as 3.5-4

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 13, 2010 9:42 AM PST up reply actions  

Hmmm

I’m a huge Justin fan, I love his defense in RF and his overall approach at the plate. I think he’s got some MVP-type years in him, I don’t think about BJ. I still would trade BA+Carter for Justin Upton, and something like Ross, Bailey & Green for BJ, if those teams would bite. I’d rather try and get Rasmus more than either of them though.

by PL78 on Nov 13, 2010 9:12 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't think we have nearly enough prospects to even get close to acquiring Justin

He’s a complete stud, who’s signed through 2015…

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Nov 13, 2010 10:25 PM PST up reply actions  

This almost reminds me of the post I believe Taj did (it could have been one of the FPers though)?

I think it was 2 offseasons ago, the one saying that Justin Upton would be our first $100M man, as we would have money just after the new ballpark is ready…

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Nov 13, 2010 10:27 PM PST up reply actions  

Pretty sure that was NSJ

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 13, 2010 10:33 PM PST up reply actions  

I think you're right

Didn’t mean to diminish NSJ’s work.
It was a great piece!

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Nov 14, 2010 2:59 AM PST up reply actions  

I'd love to throw everything we have at Justin Upton and Colby Rasmus.

Like, everyone. I think we could basicly start over and make some signings and we would be a beast by 2013.

by PL78 on Nov 14, 2010 9:35 AM PST up reply actions  

We're as beastly now as we would be in that instance

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 10:04 AM PST up reply actions  

I'd like to make a fanpost about players I dont want

but it might be too negative and I need to come up with actual alternatives before getting hating too hard but the shortlist looks like this:

Matt Kemp
Lance Berkman
Jermaine Dye
Vladimir Guerrero
Hidecki Matsui

by PL78 on Nov 13, 2010 12:30 AM PST reply actions  

Do you "not want" Kemp or do you just not want to give up much to get him?

In other words, would you take him if he was, say, a waiver claim and all the A’s had to pay was his contract?

For the other 4 guys on your list, I don’t want them. At all (because none of them are better than Cust). But if Kemp is free, I’ll take him.

www.zekeishungry.com

by thejd44 on Nov 13, 2010 1:15 PM PST up reply actions  

Of course I'd put in a waiver claim

But I sure as shit wouldn’t want to trade anything of value for him. Or BJ for that matter.

"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin

by Helloooo 1st on Nov 13, 2010 3:33 PM PST up reply actions  

I have a feeling they'll be traded for something of value

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 13, 2010 4:16 PM PST up reply actions  

Good for them.

I just wouldn’t really want either on my team unless they were FAs and all I’d be giving up is money.

"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin

by Helloooo 1st on Nov 13, 2010 6:37 PM PST up reply actions  

I honestly do not like Matt Kemp.

1. His 08+09 were fueled by a high BABIP
2. He doesnt draw many walks.
3. He’s awful on the basepaths.
4. He was the worst defensive OF last year.

I do not think he would help the A’s win more games than other options we have internally or via trade/FA.

by PL78 on Nov 13, 2010 9:05 PM PST up reply actions  

Eh, some guys can maintain higher BABIPs

Kemp is most likely one of those guys, IMO.
I know line drive rate is something around +/- 5% year to year, but he’s been over 20% literally every year except one.
I would say he can maintain a +.300 BABIP pretty easily…

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Nov 13, 2010 10:20 PM PST up reply actions  

Then why did it drop to .295 this year?

It was .360, when he was “good” cmon man, he’s not Ichiro or Gardner here. I think he’s a .320 guy like a lot of hitters….that still wouldnt have saved his 2010. Plus, all my other points.

by PL78 on Nov 14, 2010 9:38 AM PST up reply actions  

Eh

High BABIPs are sustainable by hitters who are good at that skill. Michael Young is a righthanded hitter of only modest speed who has a .335 career BABIP.

Kemp’s career figure regressed to the mean is probably in that range, maybe more like .325-.330.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Nov 14, 2010 10:59 AM PST up reply actions  

Even still

If he’s a .320-330 BABIP guy those numbers last year look much better…

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Nov 14, 2010 11:40 AM PST up reply actions  

I mean, his bat was still worth +3 runs last year...

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Nov 14, 2010 11:41 AM PST up reply actions  

OF

buck and jackson shouldnt come back i think , i like upton ,but i dont think there is a point to trade for him. carter crisp dejesus is our outfeild , sweeny and davis backup ,…rosales ,and powell the other bench players

by T-train_24 on Nov 13, 2010 1:05 AM PST reply actions  

Upton is better than Carter or DeJesus and maybe Crisp

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 13, 2010 5:18 AM PST via mobile up reply actions  

Sorry if this throws the discussion out of whack Taj but I didn't feel like there was enough to start a new post

Given the recent breakdown in negotiations between the Marlins and Dan Uggla, it now appears as if Florida is inquiring about what they could get in return. This piece by MLB.com’s Florida team reporter says that the Marlins are specifically asking about relief pitching. He also notes that they’re in the market for a catcher.

Florida likes cheap talent, so maybe Bailey OR Donaldson/H. Rodriguez for Uggla?

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 13, 2010 10:34 AM PST reply actions  

Doesn't Florida also have a habit of getting fantastic prospects in their deals

I’d assume it would be more along the lines of one of Carter/Taylor and a solid bullpen arm, perhaps Breslow or Weurtz.

I really don’t see them giving Uggla away for less than full value.

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by mikev on Nov 13, 2010 10:40 AM PST up reply actions  

You mean like Cameron Maybin and Andrew Miller?

Lots of potential variables and single source trade rumors almost always miss something. If it wasn’t the Marlins beat reporter I wouldn’t give it much credibility, if any.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 13, 2010 10:43 AM PST up reply actions  

They were both A'ish prospects at that time IIRC

Carter and Green could bust too

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 13, 2010 11:05 AM PST up reply actions  

I completely agree

However, the article says the Marlins are asking about relief arms.

The only speculation I’m doing on this is the assumption that the Marlins beat reporter has some decent contacts inside the organization.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 13, 2010 11:09 AM PST up reply actions  

Never take single source rumors as anything approaching gospel

That said… Bailey for Uggla doesn’t get it done for the Marlins? Not sure I agree with that.

But that’s also why I suggested the other package.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 13, 2010 11:19 AM PST up reply actions  

I guess I have a hard time seeing what the Marlins would want a 27 year old for

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by mikev on Nov 13, 2010 4:12 PM PST up reply actions  

er, a 27 year old closer for.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
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by mikev on Nov 13, 2010 4:12 PM PST up reply actions  

Cheap for 4 years...

But with Florida getting Webb and Mujica for Maybin… I doubt they’re still looking for relief pitching.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 13, 2010 4:15 PM PST up reply actions  

That's a great deal for the Padres

Maybin’s 23 and might turn out to be good. Webb and Mujica will never be more than relief arms

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 13, 2010 4:17 PM PST up reply actions  

It really is even though Mujica is really good hes going to start getting expensive.

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Nov 13, 2010 7:22 PM PST up reply actions  

Which makes it puzzling that Florida would acquire him

Perhaps he’s a flip candidate…

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Nov 13, 2010 10:11 PM PST up reply actions  

im usually a huge Beinfest fan but this one confuzzels me

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Nov 14, 2010 8:06 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm chalking it up to a mistake, like when the Rays

picked Beckham over Posey

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 8:23 PM PST up reply actions  

Well, yeah pretty much.

Getting a team’s best 2 prospects for 1 year of Miguel Cabrera PLUS making them take on Dontrelle Willis?

That’s a pretty damn good deal, even if both guys didn’t end up panning out.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Nov 13, 2010 2:44 PM PST up reply actions  

this

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Nov 13, 2010 7:19 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah, didn't they sign him to an idiotic extension immediately after?

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Nov 13, 2010 10:12 PM PST up reply actions  

Correct

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 13, 2010 10:33 PM PST up reply actions  

they draft better than they trade usually

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Nov 13, 2010 7:18 PM PST up reply actions  

Well, they did get a lot for Beckett and Lowell

Letely they haven’t been drafting that well though. Their system is pretty run down at this point. Kyle Skipworth looks like an uber-bust.

Speaking of uber-busts, anyone else catch that the Rays added Matt &*#%ing Bush to their 40-man roster? Apparently he’s attempting a comeback.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Nov 14, 2010 12:12 AM PST up reply actions  

I heard that

Looks like he throws strikes like a motherf*cker….
Could be a very interesting bullpen guy…

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Nov 14, 2010 3:02 AM PST up reply actions  

Saw that

Obviously Beane was too busy watching soccer to notice yet another amazing opportunity.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 14, 2010 6:48 AM PST up reply actions  

as a pitcher,not a SS

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
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by mikev on Nov 14, 2010 6:13 PM PST up reply actions  

Skipworth looked horribad in the AFL

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Nov 14, 2010 8:06 PM PST up reply actions  

Does this change now that they've acquired Webb and Mujica?

"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."

by lenscrafters on Nov 13, 2010 2:59 PM PST up reply actions  

They now need Rajai Davis!

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 13, 2010 4:17 PM PST up reply actions  

I think the A's could get BJ pretty easily

they might be able to acquire him for just reliever.

"You need to get real!"

by MJ5 on Nov 13, 2010 11:54 AM PST reply actions  

Whoa. What the heck are they waiting for?

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 13, 2010 4:18 PM PST up reply actions  

relievers sorry

"You need to get real!"

by MJ5 on Nov 13, 2010 11:54 AM PST reply actions  

It looks like SD is about to get Cameron Maybin

http://twitter.com/JoeFrisaro/status/3505021505245184

http://twitter.com/JeffPassan/status/3538517342814208

He would have been an interesting target.
Lots of talent and still very young.
Too bad…

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Nov 13, 2010 12:53 PM PST reply actions  

For Ryan Webb

and Edward Mujica. Before all the Captain Hindsights come out, the A’s gave Ryan Webb every chance in the world and hung on to him far longer than his performance deserved. Sometimes a big kid with a big arm is just going to figure it out.

by AgitationStation on Nov 13, 2010 2:15 PM PST up reply actions  

Trade has got to be a win for SD

Yeah, Webb was pretty damn good but Mujica isn’t anything special.

The potential value of 5 years of Maybin greatly outweighs the 6 or 7 years of control for 2 bullpen arms…

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Nov 13, 2010 2:50 PM PST up reply actions  

Mujica is pretty good.

69 IP 72 K 6 BB.

Honestly, good trade for both sides. SD provides a change of scenery and gets some upside. FLA gets two excellent bullpen arms which they needed.

"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."

by lenscrafters on Nov 13, 2010 2:58 PM PST up reply actions  

He's still not better than a starting CF

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 13, 2010 4:18 PM PST up reply actions  

This

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Nov 13, 2010 5:11 PM PST up reply actions  

Yes, that's what happens when you throw so many strikes.

"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."

by lenscrafters on Nov 13, 2010 5:23 PM PST up reply actions  

This as well

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Nov 13, 2010 5:12 PM PST up reply actions  

Is Maybin a starting centerfielder?

"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."

by lenscrafters on Nov 13, 2010 5:24 PM PST up reply actions  

I'd say so. Not a great one at this point but if he's a 2-3 WAR player at

23 years of age, that’s already adequate, and pretty promising for improvement.

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 13, 2010 5:42 PM PST up reply actions  

but... he's not a 2-3 WAR player.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
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by mikev on Nov 13, 2010 5:50 PM PST up reply actions  

I have a hard time seeing him as a 2-3 WAR player since he's never even broke the 1 WAR level.

And for what it’s worth, this year he would’ve been a .8 WAR player, if you extrapolate to a full season.

The bat is godawful. You’d have to try really hard to hit as many groundballs as he does, have a career .334 BABIP, and end up with only career .246 AVG. I guess it’s to be expected when you strike out as much as he does (31.6%). The defense is slightly above average, but nothing special. Seems pretty replacement level to me.

I’d cut him some slack since he’s only 23, and the Marlins haven’t really made it easy for him to adjust. But he’s really shown no signs of improving, only signs of getting worse.

"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."

by lenscrafters on Nov 13, 2010 5:53 PM PST up reply actions  

BB-Pro has his MLE at .296/.349/.415 at AAA

I don’t think 2-3 WAR is totally out of bounds

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 13, 2010 6:09 PM PST up reply actions  

It's looking more and more like he's a failed prospect.

He was a top 10 prospect among all of the minors three years in a row. And then with extended time in the majors…shit.

by danmerqury on Nov 13, 2010 6:25 PM PST up reply actions  

Too early to give up on him

But he’s burned up his options and the only way he can get better is to play… which shouldn’t happen on a team trying to compete for its division.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 13, 2010 6:58 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm not unaware of Maybin's good minor league performance.

That plus the upside is why SD bothered to trade for him in the first place.

But it’s more than likely that a good chunk of those minor league numbers are from all the grounders he hit that the poor defenses in the minors aren’t able to field. The defenses in the majors are much better and that’s why the numbers aren’t translating.

"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."

by lenscrafters on Nov 13, 2010 6:32 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm not sure a BA heavy .750 OPS is all that "good"

It might translate to .720 in Petco, but that might be OK if you’re a Gold Glove CF.

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 13, 2010 7:04 PM PST up reply actions  

Is Maybin a starting CF?

I’ve given up on him. He’s got Cust-like strikeout rates with little power to make up for them.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Nov 14, 2010 12:15 AM PST up reply actions  

I still think he can be serviceable

I know it’s not entirely irrational, but I have this weird Denorfia (for you) like feeling that he’s gonna figure it out.
I love this trade for SD (who is my “distant 2nd” rooting team).
We’ll see how this goes, but Maybin is one of my man crush type players..

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Nov 14, 2010 3:05 AM PST up reply actions  

This is basically where I am too

The ground ball tendencies and excellent defense play well at Petco. The strikeouts….not so much.

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 4:14 AM PST up reply actions  

Unless it's for Matt Holliday?

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 10:05 AM PST up reply actions  

Yes.

We didnt give cargo for 2 replaceable relievers.

by PL78 on Nov 14, 2010 11:10 AM PST up reply actions  

Uh...WTF?!

A's Fan in Sweden

"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime

by travdog6 on Nov 13, 2010 6:57 PM PST up reply actions  

yes?

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Nov 13, 2010 6:58 PM PST up reply actions  

Nevermind. I was thinking of someone else.

That’s not as bad as I thought.

A's Fan in Sweden

"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime

by travdog6 on Nov 13, 2010 7:00 PM PST up reply actions  

May I point out the following about Webb & Mujica

Webb: 0.90 ERA in SD, 4.97 ERA away
Mujica: 1.81 HR/9…..in Petco.

Holy christ did the Padres rape the ever loving shit out of the Marlins here. Maybin on defense alone is worth 3x those cruddy relievers.

by PL78 on Nov 14, 2010 9:41 AM PST up reply actions  

1.81 HR over 9 at Petco = cruddy. Big deal he doesnt walk anyone, thats because he’s too busy throwing it in the strike zone so hitters can hit 500 feet or whatever it is to actually hit a HR at Petco.

by PL78 on Nov 14, 2010 11:12 AM PST up reply actions  

Whatever he's doing he should keep doing it.

9.30 K/9? 0.78 BB/9? Those are incredible. A 3.88 FIP is great, no matter how you do it.

by danmerqury on Nov 15, 2010 9:46 AM PST up reply actions  

Erm, I know word choice has been debated ad nauseam here recently.

But I really, really don’t like that one.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Nov 14, 2010 7:53 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Do not call baseball transactions rape. It devalues the word and comparing a fucking game to rape is not ok.

Im flagging this.

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Nov 14, 2010 8:09 PM PST up reply actions   2 recs

Isn't one of the definitions of the word rape "to plunder?"

Although the use there was definitely unnecessary, I don’t think PL meant anything by it.

A's Fan in Sweden

"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime

by travdog6 on Nov 14, 2010 8:20 PM PST up reply actions  

Then the "ever loving shit" part would make no sense

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 8:21 PM PST up reply actions  

Plunder the ever loving shit out of the Marlins makes clear sense.

This is just dfa trying to “keep me on my toes” and looking like a total fool in doing so, no biggie.

by PL78 on Nov 14, 2010 10:46 PM PST up reply actions  

You are a member of an online community

Many members of this community would find the phrase “rape the ever-loving s—-” to be offensive and unnecessary. You could get your point across by using much less offensive language.

Defending yourself on that point, and calling someone else a fool for objecting to it – I mean, the harder you dig your heels in on it, the worse it looks.

"It’s ideal if your hobby and your living can merge. But you are not going to stop your hobby if you can’t make money out of it. Your hobby is all about trading time for enjoyment. My job is what I do. My hobby is who I am." -Tango

by notsellingjeans on Nov 15, 2010 3:41 AM PST up reply actions  

well perhaps if dfa wasnt such an ass about things, I wouldnt be so defensive

immediately flagging it without first kindly telling warning about it is a really lame move. if that word is in the CGV then fine I’d see his point, but it isnt.

by PL78 on Nov 15, 2010 7:57 AM PST up reply actions  

people have the ability to unflag things that they've flagged

You’ve called him an “ass” and written that it was a “lame move” to take you to task for using the phrase “rape the ever-loving s—-” in reference to a baseball trade.

I don’t know if the word is specifically in the CGVs, but…does it really need to be? You can’t see why some community members might find it offensive to use that terminology, even if it’s specified in the CGVs?

"It’s ideal if your hobby and your living can merge. But you are not going to stop your hobby if you can’t make money out of it. Your hobby is all about trading time for enjoyment. My job is what I do. My hobby is who I am." -Tango

by notsellingjeans on Nov 15, 2010 2:53 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Heck, I considered flagging it.

A given word doesn’t have to be specified in the CGs in order to be deemed part of a category of words that are “unnecessarily offensive/inflammatory.”

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2010 5:10 PM PST up reply actions  

I feel the same way about comparing games to "war" and "trenches" but it's pretty common

nonetheless. I’m not sure what to do about it, except….

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 14, 2010 8:20 PM PST up reply actions  

did you hear cliff lee when someone told him he is being called a "warrior"?

he said. something like “i am not a warrior, I am an athlete. I get paid to pitch.”

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes

by Future Ed on Nov 15, 2010 10:48 AM PST up reply actions  

I strongly suggest you not do that

as I am not the first nor the last to use that clearly defined (in this case) metaphor. For example googling “Billy Beane rape” brings you to these sites. I clearly mean it as an act of plunder and not the sexual means as you so quickly want to jump to.

by PL78 on Nov 14, 2010 10:45 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't care what other people do, or did, or where

I would respectfully ask that you not use that word again. Thanks in advance.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Nov 14, 2010 11:10 PM PST up reply actions  

I would respectfully ask that you look at the 1st amendment

and dont try and sensor me. It means plunder and thats how I used it, and I will use it how I see fit to describe a plunder whenever I want to.

by PL78 on Nov 14, 2010 11:41 PM PST up reply actions  

1. Censor, not sensor

2. AN is a private website that you signed up for. 1st amendment rights do not apply. If TPTB decide, then you will actually NOT be able to use it as you see fit.

Me, personally, I fall into the “more rules = bad” camp, and as part of the reason that the innuendo/swearing ‘rule’ was put into place, guess what? I’ve had to tone down both.

Enough people complain, there will be a rule. Then again, you could just say “OK, I won’t say that anymore” and we could avoid the whole bit about ‘new rules’ on a website.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
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by mikev on Nov 15, 2010 8:10 AM PST up reply actions  

OK, I wont say that anymore

….if everyones gunna be all “easily offended” about it, Sheesh.

by PL78 on Nov 15, 2010 10:04 AM PST up reply actions  

Actually it's pretty much impossible to offend me.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Nov 15, 2010 10:09 AM PST up reply actions  

one that's essentially become desensitized.

I blame the internet.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Nov 15, 2010 10:23 AM PST up reply actions  

Fair enough.

You’ll quickly learn that freedom of speech is not equivalent to a license to say whatever you want, wherever you want, will accumulate many CGVs quickly, and won’t be free to say anything here at all anymore. Up to you.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Nov 17, 2010 6:02 PM PST up reply actions  

What the hell does 5 google results show as a reason that you shouldn't devalue rape by comparing it to sports?

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Nov 14, 2010 11:41 PM PST up reply actions  

Because to plunder means rape and thats how I used it.

I’m not devaluing the word at all, i’m using it by its dictionary meaning, I didn’t devalue anything. You are making a mountain out of a molehill and veering into violating my 1st Amendment Rights and censoring me. Please just stop.

by PL78 on Nov 14, 2010 11:48 PM PST up reply actions  

This is not an institution covered by the first amendment. Anyone that has a modicum of understanding of the Constitution would know that.

If you want to use the term plunder by all means go forth and use it a bunch. I will flag every time you use rape in that context that I see, as I have with other users and I will verbalize that flag.

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Nov 15, 2010 1:37 AM PST up reply actions  

Oh, for the love of christ.

The first amendment concerns the government. This is a private setting. First amendment rights? What, the police should be able to arrest DFA for violating your rights? Jesus.

by danmerqury on Nov 15, 2010 7:20 AM PST up reply actions  

No.

It is his PERSONAL OPINION of a word, and is using bullying tactics to censor people. its rotten.

by PL78 on Nov 15, 2010 7:58 AM PST up reply actions  

since when is flagging bullying?

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Nov 15, 2010 9:05 AM PST up reply actions  

You really, really need to stop with this "me vs. the world" nonsense.

Several people have said that that phrase was inappropriate. It’s not just DFA, and it’s not bullying. Can’t you ever take anything without getting all defensive?

by danmerqury on Nov 15, 2010 9:50 AM PST up reply actions  

Maybe if you would understand why people are offended by these comments,

you apologized and move on, then it wouldn’t continue.
Instead you feel the need to defend your actions and then only back off with a half-hearted “if everyones gunna be all "easily offended" about it.”
You aren’t the first and certainly not the last to make an inappropriate remark like this here on this site, but you need to learn to be a little more humble about it…

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Nov 15, 2010 10:29 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

I endorse this statement.

Signed,
DFA

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Nov 15, 2010 11:30 AM PST up reply actions  

yawn

i put forward plenty of discourse on a variety of topics. Im not a wannabe journalist, Im a fan. Its a bummer those who are the former do not want to co-exist with the latter on here.

by PL78 on Nov 15, 2010 12:05 PM PST up reply actions  

"... and remove all doubt"

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 15, 2010 2:29 PM PST up reply actions  

TY

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Nov 15, 2010 11:33 AM PST up reply actions  

cool can we get a list of "banned words" on here then?

might as well go whole hog on the censorship thing, sigh.

by PL78 on Nov 15, 2010 12:06 PM PST up reply actions  

Did you even read nevermoor's comment? Because if you had and comprehended it, it would be impossible to say something that inane.

AN is a private institution; you have no right to say anything here. You are also not being censored. You have the right to say whatever you want on your own blog, but Blez doesn’t have to pay for it or let you play here. Its his game.

Also AN has rules, and your comment violated CG #2

Comments that are intolerant or prejudiced (sexist, racist, homophobic, etc.) in nature,

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Nov 15, 2010 1:48 PM PST up reply actions  

PL78 is not really handling this gracefully, but I think the criticism is a bit harsh.

And I do think it’s a bit gray (purposely, most likely) in the guidelines.

by rebus on Nov 15, 2010 2:47 PM PST up reply actions  

FLAGGED!

grEy!!!!!!

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes

by Future Ed on Nov 15, 2010 3:07 PM PST up reply actions  

How is this harsh?

One is a factual counter to a ridiculous assertion of first amendment protection in an instance when the government is not involved. The other is an assertion that he is breaking the rules. Neither are harsh. They just are the truth.

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Nov 15, 2010 9:39 PM PST up reply actions  

dfa's post reminds me of all the morons who protested that song back in the day.

yet, he’s more “respected” around here for never starting any fanposts and instead picking apart ideas rather than putting new ones forward. whatever.

by PL78 on Nov 15, 2010 12:07 PM PST up reply actions  

DFA never starts fanposts?

Please get a clue as to WTF you’re talking about.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Nov 15, 2010 12:54 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Yeah, what do you think he deletes?

I KID! I kid.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2010 5:14 PM PST up reply actions  

IT WAS FUNNY! It was funny.

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Nov 15, 2010 5:18 PM PST up reply actions  

So by your logic,

I should start a fanpost about how the A’s should trade Rajai for Longoria, and that’d be good? Quantity vs. quality dude. And really, taking one word out of your vocab isn’t that big a deal. I’m not personally offended by it, but if it really pisses people off, just don’t say it.

A's Fan in Sweden

"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime

by travdog6 on Nov 15, 2010 12:57 PM PST up reply actions  

this could have been dealt with much a pinch of sugar, thats all.

jeepers had it right, dfa did not. i get it, it takes away from the point, so why bother using it as a metaphor? i wont do it in the future.

by PL78 on Nov 15, 2010 1:19 PM PST up reply actions  

This is fair.

A's Fan in Sweden

"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime

by travdog6 on Nov 15, 2010 1:37 PM PST up reply actions  

Wow.

I’d argue that DFA is one of the most productive people we’ve got. What AN are you watching?

by danmerqury on Nov 15, 2010 12:58 PM PST up reply actions  

Thanks dan. I appreciate it.

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Nov 15, 2010 1:42 PM PST up reply actions  

You realize ive written 36 fanposts of over 60,000 words here right?

And one of them was last week?

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Nov 15, 2010 1:43 PM PST up reply actions  

Sure

But I mean… LATELY you haven’t done shit.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 15, 2010 2:30 PM PST up reply actions  

seriously! WHAT A LOOSER.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Nov 15, 2010 2:49 PM PST up reply actions  

Ok, sure

But what have you done THIS week.

I mean, to be worth at least 2 WARP (wins above replacement poster) you really need to maintain a 2:1 Posts per Week ratio…

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Nov 15, 2010 6:21 PM PST up reply actions  

I can write false misleading and ridiculous posts all the time if you really want

and never admit to being wrong…. ever.

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Nov 15, 2010 6:27 PM PST up reply actions  

Yes, this please!

(but in all seriousness, don’t)

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Nov 15, 2010 11:23 PM PST up reply actions  

While we are being offended

I would also like to say that I am offended by those using my savior’s name in vain on this site. “for the love of Christ” is very offensive to Christians.

Also, all the blog titles that have been using DeJesus’s name like he is Jesus is offensive. You are mocking Jesus and it’s sacrilegious.

I bet if I belittled Mohammed, I would be reprimanded. Please show the same respect.

by Yellow_Dye5 on Nov 15, 2010 9:59 AM PST up reply actions  

GLWT.

Also, the “De Jesus” references are from the Big Lebowski.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Nov 15, 2010 10:12 AM PST up reply actions  

The references to Jesus make me a bit uneasy as well

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2010 5:16 PM PST up reply actions  

Here's the bigger problem:

My savior happens to be named “the”.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2010 5:16 PM PST up reply actions  

I did not know that.

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2010 5:17 PM PST up reply actions  

Hello Mike,

By “good luck with that”, do you mean that I will just have to take it and be offended? I kind of figured that. Actually, it does not bother me so much because I know we all have different beliefs. My point is just that I think if we look for reasons to be offended we can find a lot of stuff from any blog. I think society is too easily offended today.

But I do kind of wonder why it is OK to insult Christians. Seems like a double standard to me.

by Yellow_Dye5 on Nov 15, 2010 10:27 AM PST reply actions  

yeah, it kinda is.

a double standard, I mean.

Which is why I choose to mock most all religions, but I don’t do it here.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Nov 15, 2010 10:37 AM PST up reply actions  

I'd mock Jewish religion, but I'm too cheap to use up the internet time.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2010 5:17 PM PST up reply actions  

oy givalt.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Nov 15, 2010 5:46 PM PST up reply actions  

"What's the matter, sir?"

“My herring is bad.”
“I SAID, ’WHAT’S THE MATTER, SIR?’”

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2010 5:50 PM PST up reply actions  

Well the most obvious reason is that Christians choose to believe something...

If you choose to believe that 2+2=5, then I’m going to mock the crap out of you. I think it’s totally OK to insult that belief. I think it’s OK to insult the belief that Jeff Francoeur is good at baseball, or that RBIs are the best measure of an MVP, or really any of the (vast majority of) conceivably possible opinions which are nonetheless wrong and/or crazy.

So if some Christian viewpoints are whacked out, as far as I’m concerned, it’s open season. Insanity doesn’t get a free pass just because you slap a bow labeled “religion” on it.

In any case, rape victims don’t choose anything, they’re the victim of horrible bodily trauma. Actually, so long as we’re all getting offended at something, your easy equation of the two is kind of offensive to me.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2010 1:53 PM PST up reply actions  

I hope this comment doesn't get any replies besides this one....

As much as I may agree with one of these two comments, this could easily become a debate and it shouldn’t.

"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton

by vignette17 on Nov 15, 2010 3:19 PM PST up reply actions  

agreed.

If people don’t like an individual comment they should flag it and perhaps say something in thread. Debating what is more offensive is counter productive.

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Nov 15, 2010 3:33 PM PST up reply actions  

no it isnt

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Nov 15, 2010 3:34 PM PST up reply actions  

What do you know?

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 15, 2010 3:58 PM PST up reply actions  

that isn't an argument, thats just contradiction.

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Nov 15, 2010 5:19 PM PST up reply actions  

shit

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Nov 15, 2010 5:47 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm offended Taj used "BJ" in the title

"You know, a long time ago being crazy meant something. Nowadays everybody's crazy."

-Charles Manson

by kaweahkaweah on Nov 15, 2010 10:55 AM PST reply actions  

And then talks about a disappointing one.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2010 5:18 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm offended at dfa's screen name

its insensitive to those players who have lost jobs, they might have families and now cannot provide for them.

SEE HOW EVERYTHING CAN BE OFFENSIVE?

by PL78 on Nov 15, 2010 12:09 PM PST reply actions  

note: I actually dont.

but am over talking about this. my point was made, now back to baseball chatter…

by PL78 on Nov 15, 2010 12:11 PM PST up reply actions  

It's true that a wide variety of things can be potentially offensive, but if someone says they are

offended by something, the best thing to do is to take them seriously and apologize.

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2010 5:21 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Couple better alternatives?

It seems like there’s a few alternatives to Upton that provide better upside.

One who isn’t young, but could provide the all-around player and power bat Beane’s looking for is Carlos Beltran. He’s been hurt some, but the contract/age (33)/injuries make him less painful to acquire, while still having plenty of talent and potential to have a Frank Thomas-type revival. (He’d also add the comic value of having all three of our OFs being former Royals…).

Another potential option could be Chris Young of the Diamondbacks. AZ has too many bats and not enough relievers, so a pretty sweet deal involving Bailey could work out, especially if we involve someone like Taylor or even Carter (AZ needs a 1B). Young’s got pop and baserunning, and again, is the sort of multifaceted player Beane is said to be looking for a la DeJesus.

by LunaCI on Nov 15, 2010 12:21 PM PST reply actions  

So we'll use our gift cards then?

""Expelliarmus!" said Eckstein, attempting to knock the bat out of Matt Kemp's hands, just before Kemp laced a single to center." -Ken Tremendous

by Cheezombie on Nov 15, 2010 3:37 PM PST up reply actions  

I think you may be confusing Beltran with someone else

There is no option of any sort on his contract. ’11 is the last year of it…

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Nov 15, 2010 6:23 PM PST up reply actions  

That's true. WTF was I thinking?

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2010 6:47 PM PST up reply actions  

if not BJ Upton

perhaps his younger brother Justin? Seems the Diamondbacks are listening to trade proposals.

by OaklandSi on Nov 16, 2010 4:21 PM PST reply actions  

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