Should We Really Hate the Yankees?
I will take on anyone in a Yankee hating contest. I despise most of them. But then I saw Swisher at the plate tonight, and thought, I don't really hate this guy. He loves to give interviews, do funny dances with Milton Bradley, he is a fun guy to watch.
Then I started to think about my reasons for hating the Yankees. I hate their overblown payroll. Then I started to think, "would I hate myself if I was overpaid?" I guess Kurt Cobain did. Should we hate money? Should we hate success? Should we hate people with money succeeding? That sounds like some of the premise our country was founded on. I get the vibe a lot of the dislike of Barry Zito comes not from his poor pitching, but from his average pitching while making a lot of money.
Below is a list of 2010 Payrolls which I found at Wikipedia and Dollars per Win which I calculated. Maybe who we should really hate is the Mariners, who spent almost as much $/win as the Yankees and lost 100 games. Interestingly 5 of the 8 playoff teams were in the bottom half of payroll. Only 2 of the top 10 teams made the playoffs, and the Braves were 10th. Our beloved A's were 3rd in the league in lowest $/win, with the Marlins running away with it, because their payroll was less then half the 2nd lowest team, the Rays. It looks like the Rays have out-A's the A's, again. I remember looking at the Rays World Series team 2 years ago and thinking "5 years ago these guys would have all been on the A's." Upton and Longoria and Price are exactly the kind of young talent the A's like to lock up until their arbitration years.
Then I saw that the Yankees outspent the Mets by more than $70 million, They outspent the 2nd highest spending team by more than the salary of the bottom 10 payroll teams. With that payroll you know they are just buying mercenaries, guys with no allegiance to anything who would off their own mother if the price is right. So there's my reason, the Yankees spent a lot more than anyone else. Well that, and they are the Yankees.
| Rank | Team | 2010 Payroll | Wins | Dollars per Win |
| 1 | New York Yankees | $209,081,579 | 96 | $2,177,933.11 |
| 2 | New York Mets | $138,685,197 | 79 | $1,755,508.82 |
| 3 | Detroit Tigers | $138,683,978 | 81 | $1,712,147.88 |
| 4 | Boston Red Sox | $138,292,937 | 89 | $1,553,853.22 |
| 5 | Chicago White Sox | $121,152,667 | 88 | $1,376,734.85 |
| 6 | Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim | $119,216,333 | 80 | $1,490,204.16 |
| 7 | Chicago Cubs | $118,595,833 | 75 | $1,581,277.77 |
| 8 | Los Angeles Dodgers | $118,536,038 | 80 | $1,481,700.48 |
| 9 | Seattle Mariners | $117,993,982 | 61 | $1,934,327.57 |
| 10 | Atlanta Braves | $102,424,018 | 91 | $1,125,538.66 |
| 11 | St. Louis Cardinals | $100,624,450 | 86 | $1,170,051.74 |
| 12 | Toronto Blue Jays | $98,641,957 | 85 | $1,160,493.61 |
| 13 | Philadelphia Phillies | $98,269,881 | 97 | $1,013,091.56 |
| 14 | Houston Astros | $88,930,415 | 76 | $1,170,137.04 |
| 15 | Milwaukee Brewers | $81,004,167 | 77 | $1,052,002.17 |
| 16 | Cleveland Indians | $78,970,067 | 69 | $1,144,493.72 |
| 17 | San Francisco Giants | $76,904,500 | 92 | $835,918.48 |
| 18 | Cincinnati Reds | $74,277,695 | 91 | $816,238.41 |
| 19 | San Diego Padres | $73,677,617 | 90 | $818,640.19 |
| 20 | Colorado Rockies | $68,655,500 | 83 | $827,174.70 |
| 21 | Texas Rangers | $68,239,551 | 90 | $758,217.23 |
| 22 | Baltimore Orioles | $67,196,248 | 66 | $1,018,124.97 |
| 23 | Arizona Diamondbacks | $66,202,713 | 65 | $1,018,503.28 |
| 24 | Minnesota Twins | $62,182,767 | 94 | $661,518.80 |
| 25 | Kansas City Royals | $58,245,500 | 67 | $869,335.82 |
| 26 | Washington Nationals | $54,961,000 | 69 | $796,536.23 |
| 27 | Pittsburgh Pirates | $49,365,283 | 57 | $866,057.60 |
| 28 | Oakland Athletics | $47,967,126 | 81 | $592,186.74 |
| 29 | Tampa Bay Rays | $43,820,598 | 96 | $456,464.56 |
| 30 | Florida Marlins | $21,836,500 | 80 | $272,956.25 |
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The answer is yes, now go away you're clogging up my hours.
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by ElQuesoCapitan on Oct 6, 2010 10:50 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
nothing like cheering for plutocracy

to make you the most popular person on AN.
Silence s'il vous plait!! Vous ne voyez pas que je suis en train de se masturber?!?
y-e-s
Zooey Deschanel!
Cluck 'em all and let the Chick sort 'em out - DMOAS
You're worried that you'll come off as nerdy as frack? On AN? That’s like being ashamed of your alcohol use at a meth convention. - danmerqury
Dollars per marginal win
would be a lot more meaningful than dollars per win.
True, you’d have to set an arbitrary baseline, and we could argue endlessly about where that baseline should be. But it’s surely not zero.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
Good Graph
Had I known about it, I’d have referenced it.
by barryzitoforever on Oct 7, 2010 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions
am i missing something here?
Wouldn’t the baseline just be what team of replacement level players would win? Don’t see how that’s arbitrary or why there needs to be much argument about it. You could certainly argue about how to get that number. Tom Tango did some math a while back and found it to be about a 29-30% winning percentage. It’s buried in here (between the fourth and fifth horizonal bars):
http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/how_to_calculate_war/
So,
Minimum salary for 25 guys = $10 million
Theoretical replacement level performance over a whole season = 48 wins
Divide the amount you paid above 10 million by the number of wins you got above 48, and that’s how efficiently you spent your money.
Why don't you make like a tree, and get out of here.
by thelincolndude on Oct 7, 2010 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions
and here's an example where someone did all the calculations for 2009
Haven’t seen one for 2010 yet. If you like WAR, you could add up all the team WAR from FanGraphs and use that instead of actual win-loss records. That would theoretically tell you how efficient teams were at getting context-neutral performance (ie. smooth out the bumps from “clutch” walkoffs and stuff like that). Or if you like pythag you could use that, again subtracting replacement level wins. The bottom line is that you need to use a baseline that, as iglew said, is above zero.
When you use a baseline of zero, you’re giving too much credit to crappy teams, who could have gotten a large portion of their wins essentially for free.
Why don't you make like a tree, and get out of here.
by thelincolndude on Oct 7, 2010 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions
one more
Just a super quick example. The Pirates spent 49 million and won 57 games. The Yankees spent more than four times as much and won fewer than twice as many games. It looks like the Pirates spent a LOT less than the Yankees per win.
But the Pirates theoretically could have paid the minimum salary to a bunch of AAA scrubs and still won 47-48 games. So they really paid about 40 million for those extra 10 wins they got, or 4 million per marginal win.
Do the same calculation for the Yankees and it’s very close to the same number, about 4 million per marginal win.
Why don't you make like a tree, and get out of here.
by thelincolndude on Oct 7, 2010 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions
Yep
Marginal wins start at about 60 wins. An average GM should be able to win 60 games per year at the league minimum salary, due to the built-in value of the draft.
The 60 wins thing is obtained by taking total MLB payroll over league minimum, then dividing it by the market rate of $/win. A league-average payroll is worth about 21 games over minimum payroll, meaning that minimum payroll and average management should get you a 60-win team.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Actually, that's not quite correct
You need total MLB payroll adjusted for the fact that arbitration-eligible players are underpaid to a fairly consistent degree.
Anyway, I monkeyed around with this some a couple years ago and figured out that an average team should get about 12 “free” wins a year from drafting.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
This is interesting, but the problem I have with it
Is that it assumes some level of competency by the front office. A pure replacement-level baseline assumes no intelligence of any kind (well, almost none if you want to get technical).
Why don't you make like a tree, and get out of here.
by thelincolndude on Oct 7, 2010 3:41 PM PDT up reply actions
I hate most things Yankee related
But I don’t hate:
- Cashman. If Billy and Forsty go, I wouldn’t mind him as GM. I’m sure at some stage he’d like a challenge to prove he’s not a spend spend puppet, which I don’t think he is.
- Swisher
- The ownership. Them spending their money is what SHOULD be happening with all teams. The Marlins ownership in comparison are the scum of the earth.
- M.Rivera. He’s done more with less then most players in the game. For some reason I like him.
I extremely hate:
- Douche bag non-baseball fans who wear Yankee hats. Especially the wrong coloured ones.
- Jeter
- A-Rod
- Joe Torre. *cough*passenger*cough*
Is this the real life-
Is this just fantasy-
Caught in a landslide-
No escape from reality-
I like the Yankees
There, I said it.
My friends don’t.
I’ll admit, I’m biased. I lived in NYC when the Yankees did suck. But the rule book states “root for the home team” and you collect a few home teams if you move around. If you left Oakland, you still might root for Oakland, right?
I finally figured out how to get TNT on my PC tonight and Yanks/Twins was the first game I caught. Bummed I missed the no-hitter. Hey, it’s great if your home team is in the post-season, but forgive me, I enjoy the playoffs. We can all root for or against the teams we want. This is just kids stuff, you need white and black hats.
CC labored, he’s local. Damn, I wish the A’s kept Swish. I’ve been watching Rivera and Jeter on TV since they were rooks. In my book, they’re HOF’s and class acts. If they played for your team, and you had issues with that – don’t ask me.
The Yankees have had a few assholes – what team hasn’t? But usually they are generally well behaved, for the most part. When they aren’t, Rodriguez gets a purse. And their “fans”? Well that’s up to you, that’s your experience, who you’ve met. If you want to see someone skewer a fake Yanks fan, hey, buy me a seat.
I mean they aren’t as bad as the Red Sox (by now I’m sure you expected me to say that.)
So of their $2,177,933.11 per win, I wonder how much goes into the A’s pockets? Just curious, it would be cool if someone could do the math.
Conversely, how much do they get from the Mets? Talk to a Mets fan if you wanna talk to someone who hates the Yanks.
At least the Yankees didn’t put tarps over my seats.
Enjoy the playoffs.
I don't hate 'em, either
My hatred for the Red Sox runs so deep, that I found myself cheering for the Yankees whenever they played … my dislike for NY kinda wore off.
Don’t get me wrong — I’m no Yankees fan — but it doesn’t bother me all that much if/when they win.
I needed a team so I wouldn’t turn into one of the eighty million pink hat-wearing Bud Light-drinking mulleted idiots at Fenway.
I hate the Yankees.
But I don’t hate Swisher. I hate that the Yankees got him so cheaply.
Other kids may be sayin' hi-ho, but The Gooch just says yo.
"Proud of you, Hale" ~ Major Vic Deakins
If the Athletics were as successful as the Yankees in winning consistently, drawing fans, creating buzz, and earning net profits, would current Athletics’ fans implode?
by LowcountryJoe on Oct 7, 2010 3:56 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Of course not. Because we're fans for the right reasons.
If the A’s win the next 40 World Series in a row, they will have a whole lot of bandwagon fans, and I will passionately hate those bandwagon fans, but no jumped up wannabe halfway-baseball-fan idiot from Modesto is going to make me give up on my team. A real estate agent from San Jose motivated solely by profit—the real estate business, the South Bay, and unfettered capitalism being almost a perfect storm of three things I don’t like—couldn’t make me turn my back on the A’s, so neither would success.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 7, 2010 10:25 AM PDT up reply actions
unfettered capitalism?
There’s no such animal.
by LowcountryJoe on Oct 7, 2010 4:31 PM PDT up reply actions
Unfettered capitalism as a belief system, not a reality.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 15, 2010 12:24 PM PDT up reply actions
This is just screaming out for a poll. I vote yes.
JJ Martin
The best way to catch a knuckleball is to wait until the ball stops rolling and then pick it up. ~Bob Uecker
If I had more skilz I'd post a poll
But I can already tell you the result, 95% or so would check the “yes” box, and I would be the first one. Maybe the trickier question is, who should we hate more, Jeter or Arod? I vote ARod.
by barryzitoforever on Oct 7, 2010 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions
I vote ARod as well...except for that one image of Jeter's backhand toss.
JJ Martin
The best way to catch a knuckleball is to wait until the ball stops rolling and then pick it up. ~Bob Uecker
I'm tempted to say 'yes'
but on further though, ‘we’ being the folks at AN should make up our own minds, not follow some prophet of hate.
But should I hate the Bankiees? H*** YES
I have never liked the Yankees
not even when I was a child in NY. I was a Mets fan, (There would never be such a thing as a split cap in NY. Ever.)
Here's a question:
What if a zillionaire bought the A’s and started “buying” championships… would we all still love the A’s?
"The only way I'm going to get a Gold Glove is with a can of spray paint." - Reggie Jackson
Sure
Because it’s about more than just that with Yankee hate. It’s the self-importance, the obnoxious fans, etc.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
It's the entitlement.
Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples
Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.
If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.
Exactly
It’s the attitude that the Yankees are the Greatest, Classiest Sports Franchise Ever, that the World Series belongs to them, that certain players are “true Yankees” and others not, that their fans are the most knowledgeable, they should be able to commandeer players they want in order to reclaim the WS trophy that basically belongs to them…
…it’s everything about the arrogance and privilege surrounding the team.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Oct 7, 2010 10:04 AM PDT up reply actions 4 recs
So perfectly said.
It’s not as much about the fact that their payroll is high as much as their fans entitled assholes.
Seriously, the rest of MLB are not farm teams for the Yankees. That is all.
Needs moar dingerz and moar Josh Donaldson.
Those are reasons for hating the Giants, not the Yankees
At least the Yankees have the trophies. The Giants, the SF media, and their dumb-ass fans have this puffed up arrogance but without any of the championships to back it up. I dislike the Yankees but I HATE the Giants. The Red Sox are right behind them. The Yankees aren’t even close.
Root for the Giants? Not even if they're playing al-Qaeda!
Interesting viewpoint.
Personally, I’ve never met these awful Giants fans everyone talks about. Most of the ones I know are always pretty cordial and easygoing, because I’m not a Dodgers fan.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 11, 2010 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Last time I was at the Booth I wore a Dodgers hat on purpose.
That got me a lot of boos (although not as many as I expected)
!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam
by cuppingmaster on Oct 13, 2010 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes.
‘Cause they aren’t the A’s.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Oct 7, 2010 9:41 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
This, forever.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 7, 2010 10:25 AM PDT up reply actions
Also:
Should we hate money?
Yeah, probably.
Should we hate success?
Financial success within a capitalist framework has a direct correlation to the suffering of those without the opportunities to achieve similar outcomes. So, again, yeah, we probably should.
Should we hate people with money succeeding?
Yes. It might be the most fundamental human condition.
That sounds like some of the premise our country was founded on.
Our country was founded on slavery and the 3/5 compromise. I’m not impressed with the Constitution, the Founding Fathers, the Bill of Rights, democracy, or most of the principles the U.S. was founded upon. All of the above are adequate at times, atrocious at others.
I get the vibe a lot of the dislike of Barry Zito comes not from his poor pitching, but from his average pitching while making a lot of money.
Yes. Of course it does. That’s kind of the same place that the dislike of Bobby Crosby comes from. If you suck and you’re getting paid, people aren’t going to appreciate it.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 7, 2010 10:29 AM PDT reply actions 2 recs
I think I love you
Silence s'il vous plait!! Vous ne voyez pas que je suis en train de se masturber?!?
by emperor nobody on Oct 7, 2010 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions
What nobody said...
Emperor Nobody, that is.
-1
Should we prefer the double coincidence of wants problem?
Should we also hate people who started from humble beginnings, who later amassed wealth and became successful?
Our country was not founded on the U.S. Constitution.
by LowcountryJoe on Oct 8, 2010 3:10 AM PDT up reply actions
you forgot the sunken costs problem
people think that they should stick with X because they paid lots for it, don’t want to admit to the loss.
EG: Beane + Chavez at the start of the year.
-
Should we prefer the double coincidence of wants problem?
No, I don’t have a better solution than money. But I still think it’s something we should hate. Hatred for something you can’t give up adds a very interesting element and perspective to life.
Should we also hate people who started from humble beginnings, who later amassed wealth and became successful?
Perhaps we shouldn’t hate them, because it’s understandable that a person from a lower-income background would be miserly and greedy given the conditions from which they arose, but we should absolutely not applaud that kind of behavior. Find me a rich guy who needs anywhere near as much as he has. I’m not calling for all people to live like peasants; I like luxury, and I think we can all—literally, all six billion of us—live with a little bit of modest luxury. Realistically, we can still have an upper class, even. I’m fine with some rich people, but not the kind of disgusting wealth and opulence we currently see. Take that money, sell those idiotic yachts and gross second and third and fourth mansions, get rid of the Audi and the Benz (but keep the BMW—it’s a good car), and put that money into doing something useful and productive.
World hunger and global poverty could be solved in a decade. The most fundamental parts of world peace could be worked out in twenty-five years. Worldwide modernization could be achieved in about the same timespan, which would in turn mean a worldwide march toward democracy (not at ALL something I’m high on, but still better than anything else out there), enlightenment, intellectualism, and equality.
Our country was not founded on the U.S. Constitution.
Depends on how you define it. I’m aware that we were almost saddled with a hideous excuse for a country in the Articles of Confederation. Fortunately for us, more logical heads prevailed and government was centralized; there wouldn’t be a U.S. today if the Constitution hadn’t happened. Personally, I do not consider the country as it existed under the Articles to be the same as the country that existed under the Constitution. The Articles-era U.S. was a mish-mash hodgepodge of incoherent ideas and was full-steam-ahead toward failure. The Constitution-era U.S. has been a good idea with a lot of potential that might one day amount to something positive.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 8, 2010 10:01 AM PDT up reply actions
Yes,...
Fortunately for us, more logical heads prevailed and government was centralized…The Constitution-era U.S. has been a good idea with a lot of potential that might one day amount to something positive.
…perhaps in the future, there will be a centralized body of decisionmakers that governs the whole globe uniformly with the same legislation so that silly mish-mashes and hodgepodged ideas never have a place in smaller geographical areas. Just make sure that you’re close with at least one of the decisionmakers if you’re not already planning to be one of them.
by LowcountryJoe on Oct 10, 2010 6:13 AM PDT up reply actions
One day, Joe. One day.
I can’t imagine why you’re against unity and world peace. I also can’t imagine why you would confuse that goal with an elimination of smaller geographical areas; just as in the U.S., there will always be different levels of government. But the idea that there could be a way to prevent open warfare between two places because of a unified, complex system of global government is not a monstrous thing. The idea that we wouldn’t have to contemplate international action against a place because of what it does to women, or because of what it does to the poor, or because of what it does to dissenters, is not a horrible idea.
Government is neither all good nor all bad. But you do have to commit to it. You have to give it your all. A ragged, half-assed government is not a government, it’s a civil war waiting to happen.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 11, 2010 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions
In your prefered 'state', why would different levels of government be needed?
It seems like you’re contradicting yourself or you’re unclear that these different levels would create the mish-mash/hodgepodge.
by LowcountryJoe on Oct 11, 2010 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't think it's contradictory at all.
I’m fully in favor of state governments, county governments, and municipal governments. I’m even in favor of regional governments that would have certain jurisdictions over groupings of states. All of that would not only be allowed under literally any unified world-government scenario, it would be necessary. Congress doesn’t set local mill levies, and the big bad scary new world order wouldn’t do that either.
Centralization of government, however, allows us to create uniformity where it is needed. For example, the country needs one military. Central government creates that. The country needs an FBI. The country probably needs an espionage agency. The country needs to be able to regulate airlines in a uniform manner. The country needs to be able to regulate the interstate highway system. I don’t think these are arguable needs, so the debate here is not whether we should have central government, but rather the degree. I find that there quite a few more issues that require centralized attention. I could go on and on and on about them, but I won’t. I don’t understand the objection to central government in this day and age. When the Constitution was created, it made sense; now, it doesn’t. Senators and Representatives come from their home districts, most of the time; if they’re unresponsive, don’t re-elect them.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 11, 2010 7:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Wow, dude.
I’m no slacker when it comes to conspiracy theories, anti-establishmentism, and rejecting large swaths of conventional wisdom about American history … but I don’t diss the Constitution. I love the Constitution. The Constitution is awesome.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
As a law student, I disagree
It outlived its usefulness about a hundred years ago. The Senate is grotesque, many aspects of what we would consider basic rights are either poorly worded or had to be essentially made up by judges to make the thing workable, and the amendment process is hideously inefficient.
VIrtually the entire apparatus of the current federal government exists outside the framework of the Constitution. There’s a reason for that— it’s a completely ossified document. I’d trade it for Japan’s or Germany’s every day of the week and twice on Sunday (and keep in mind, those were largely— in the case of Japan’s, entirely— authored by Americans).
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
by PaulThomas on Oct 8, 2010 8:32 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
.
The Senate is grotesque
Did the 17th amendment cause this to be the case?
many aspects of what we would consider basic rights are either poorly worded or had to be essentially made up by judges to make the thing workable, and the amendment process is hideously inefficient.
Who’s “we” what it comes to considerations? And the amendment process was designed so that the minority were somewhat protected from the tyranny of the majority, Prohibition being the ugly exception.
VIrtually the entire apparatus of the current federal government exists outside the framework of the Constitution. There’s a reason for that— it’s a completely ossified document.
That’s a refreshing admission. Not very many people are willing to admit that the U.S. Constitution has been largely left emasculated by the interpretation of the commerce clause and legislation over the last 90 years. One by one, the articles in the U.S. Constitution will be undone and the parallels to Orwell’s Animal Farm will surface.
by LowcountryJoe on Oct 8, 2010 8:47 PM PDT up reply actions
The 17th amendment actually made the Senate marginally better
inasmuch as instead of an undemocratic, grossly disproportionate group of elites selected by beer-swilling fellow elites in smoky backrooms, it’s now an undemocratic, grossly disproportionate group of elites elected by beer-swilling Joe Sixpacks. At least buying a senator is now merely “an incredible bargain,” instead of something that practically comes free with being a large corporation.
Who’s "we" what it comes to considerations?
If you would like to argue that things like “getting a lawyer for your (state court) trial” and “not being required to pay taxes to/attend the Congregational Church” are not basic rights, be my guest. I’ll go with “we” on this one.
And the amendment process was designed so that the minority were somewhat protected from the tyranny of the majority,
As the California budget process vividly demonstrates, the tyranny of the minority is far worse. And no, you are not allowed to say “neither.” Giving extensive veto powers to minorities simply hands them the power, as they can extort illegitimate benefits/policies from the majority anytime anything needs to get done.
Not very many people are willing to admit that the U.S. Constitution has been largely left emasculated
Not very many people are willing to admit that that “emasculation” is the only thing that makes it possible to govern the U.S., either. The US is manageable in spite of the Constitution, not because of it. Indeed, it’s the utter unworkability of government under a strict-constructionist regime that holds the appeal for most of the advocates.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
It took away a check-and-balance
Now, other than their roles, the U.S. Senate is nothing more than the same popular election-styled body that the House of Representatives is, except with longer terms and a larger area to represent. Have you ever wondered why there’s such an apathy by the electorate for their local campaigns?
by LowcountryJoe on Oct 10, 2010 6:19 AM PDT up reply actions
Mostly these days, I wonder what the point of the Senate is.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 11, 2010 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions
See, you're having a hard time defining its purpose, too.
There’s a good reason for this.
by LowcountryJoe on Oct 11, 2010 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions
We can separate being exasperated by the legislative process...
… from recognition of its purpose, can’t we? I’m as sick of all the ads and campaigning as anyone else, but both houses of Congress do participate in legislating. And legislation is clearly being made, as those aforementioned campaign ads remind me every 3 minutes.
"I've made a huge little mistake." - G.O.B.
Over the past 20 years, there has been a bipartisan effort to destroy the usefulness of the Senate.
Under no circumstances should a Senate Minority Leader be able to say, out loud, with cameras rolling and newspaper reporters listening, that he and his party will be filibustering every major initiative that the majority party proposes, regardless of what it is, because it’s the only way they can stay relevant as a party. That is a perversion of the already-fractured system of democracy, and it’s an embarrassment to this nation that we as voters have allowed it to happen without severe punishment in the form of not re-electing these lawmakers.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 11, 2010 7:15 PM PDT up reply actions
the problem, as SJ pointed out
Is that there is perverse control in the Senate. In effect, the minority party can exert control over the majority by refusing to vote, making sure they either get what they want, no one gets anything, or they extort what they want and “let” the legislation pass.
This is silly. Minority rule is not what democracy is about.
!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam
by cuppingmaster on Oct 13, 2010 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions
It's a republic and the senate was instituted specifically to keep power from centralizing under this new(er) constitution
Besides, and I’m paraphrasing a character from a Robert Heinlein novel here, If a law is disliked by as many as two-fifths of all Americans is it not likely that all of us Americans would be better off without it?
Let the individual states pass more laws. If these laws really are such great ideas, they will catch on and eventually spread across the states, each state giving its own appropriate and measured flavor to what the constituency wants.
by LowcountryJoe on Oct 13, 2010 5:17 PM PDT up reply actions
LCJ has many political views I do not share,
but I am in agreement with this one.
There are a great many flaws in the practice of politics today, but the inability to pass law with 51-59% support is not one of them.
I’m not denying that today’s filibustering habit is royally mucked up, but consider this: Somewhere upthread someone jocularly blamed this on Aaron Burr. If this has been the rule since 1805, how come it was fine for 165 years and didn’t start going bad until the 1970s? Today’s congressional branch is rotten to the core, but it’s not due to the cloture rule and it’s not due to the Constitution.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
That was me
And the answer is simple: political parties are much more ideological now (and it took several decades before people figured out the mistake).
The reason they are more ideological is that both parties used to have several internal branches (southern anti-integration democrats, northern fiscal conservative republicans, etc). Votes looked bipartisan when the northerners or southerners all voted one way.
And, of course, back before the Clinton era, there were pretty significant norms against filibustering.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
I agree with your answer,
which I confess I was Socratically aiming for. My point being that the problem is not the Constitution nor the 60% rule.
I’m mostly in agreement with Mann/Ornstein about the Congressional branch, and it sounds like maybe you are, too.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
You're wrong.
The problem is the 60% rule. In any democratic system the minority is going to try to become the majority. We’ve learned that one effective way to do that is to point out that the majority has failed to govern.
With a 60% rule, the minority can go a step further and actually prevent the majority from governing (which is where we are now). It’s a huge systemic problem.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
It wasn't fine until the 1970s.
Strom Thurmond filibustered the Civil Rights Act. Filibustering has always been a tool of preventing the will of the people from being enacted.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 14, 2010 8:44 AM PDT up reply actions
It was used rarely until the 1990s
And rarely then in comparison to now where it is used routinely, even on non-controversial things.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
This brings us back to the 51-59% thing.
You want 51% to prevail on everything. I, like LCJ and Robert Heinlein, think it’s not so bad to require 60%. Since this is a belief of principle and not just of convenience, I don’t change my tune just because you can find an example where it was used for a cause I disagree with.
I do think there’s a problem that the Senate today is constantly deadlocked and can never do anything. That part really was different before the 1970s.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
It was only different because the parties were less ideological
And each had a more diverse group of members (largely because of civil rights).
I do think there’s a problem that the Senate today is constantly deadlocked
This will never stop until the Senate updates it rules. The GOP certainly isn’t going to stop, and when they regain power the Democrats would be crazy not to do it too.
Also, if parties who win elections can actually enact their agenda, it makes it more likely they will present a reasonable agenda.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
I see this as the beginning of the answer,
not the end. What do we mean by “ideological”, and how is today’s ideologicalness different from that of past generations? What is it in our cultures — both political and popular — that makes two groups polarize more than they did before?
I think this is the key to understanding why the Congress is broken now and what might be done to repair it. It’s way too facile to just say we need to revoke the filibuster rule and then everything will be all right. The House doesn’t have a filibuster rule nor representation out of balance with population. Does anyone here think the House is just fine? I sure don’t
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
The House is fantastic.
Politics is always going to be divisive. That’s its nature. You’ll find that with all the You-Lies and You’re-A-Nazis going on in Congress today, we’re still coming out looking better than a lot of other periods in American history in terms of civility.
And I don’t think anything has gotten more ideological. The parties—one in particular, in my view, based on its stated plan of action for this election cycle to filibuster every major initiative regardless of what it was—have become simply another brand. They want to stay in power, so their decisions are about relevance, not about rightness.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 15, 2010 10:53 AM PDT up reply actions
The House is actually capable of governing
And the reasons are simple:
The Northeast is almost entirely blue, taking away a tradition of moderate fiscal conservatism without the same bible belt themes.
The south is almost entirely red, now that voters have moved past their civil war era revulsion with the Republican party.
So instead of having “Democrats” be southern racists and northern hippies while “Republicans” were staid northern businessmen and western outdoorsmen, we now have much more internally consistent groupings (which is why 41 GOP senators can be held together to block everything).
It isn’t some big mystery.
And, respectfully, what needs to be done is facile. The filibuster rule is a mistake of history. It gives a minority power that already has the motivation to prevent governance the power to act on that motivation. It’s simply a stupid idea.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
I'm usually pretty good with optimism,
but I’m far behind you here. I do not at all share your optimism that getting rid of the filibuster will solve much of anything. It is simply the current symptom, not the problem
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
I disagree completely
Look at what the house has been able to achieve.
Plus, if stopping things like Cap/Trade was impossible for the GOP (as it would be in a majority-ruled senate), their only option would be to (1) cast it as the most evil thing ever or (2) negotiate to make it more to their liking. (2) is a lot more likely in a world where simply killing the concept is not an option.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
One of my rules of politics is
to never judge from anything that is less than five years in the past.
I concede that this may make me slow to recognize some radical new development, but I have found that on the whole I gain far more than I lose by ignoring the small day-to-day stuff.
I basically have no interest in micro-politics, which in my definition is 98% of what anyone talks about in the news.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
I don't see what that has to do with anything
This is not day to day stuff, the trend is clear:

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
I was responding to you
citing Cap/Trade specifically and suggesting political tactics against it.
I agree with you about the general trend, just not the cause, as we’ve discussed elsewhere in this thread.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
I was just using it as an example
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Right. I get that now.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
Micro-politics, in your definition, affects your day-to-day life.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 15, 2010 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions
the problem that nevermoor mentioned isn't anything we can fix
time has simply coalesced the parties into what they are now. Granted, I don’t think cable news helps, but the ideological shift is done — you can’t go back now except for other natural movements.
Filibustering allows minority control of anything legislative at this point. Think about it: do we elect the lower scoring candidate to be president? Does the SCOTUS ever allow the minority ruling to become the decision? Do juries convict someone based on a minority’s opinion?
Hell no. If we’re going to elect people based on majorities, the same rule has to apply for governing, too. Otherwise, it makes the minority’s objective to block far too easy.
!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam
by cuppingmaster on Oct 15, 2010 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions
Right.
If you want to defeat a measure, you have to work to get the votes together to defeat it. It’s ludicrous that the minority party can just sit back and kill everything with 40 Senators.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 15, 2010 12:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Parties may have been less ideological,
but politics wasn’t. I don’t know where the general perception of a grand old tradition of nice politicians who cooperated and worked together comes from, but Congresspeople used to shoot each other over this stuff. The whole country went to war against itself over this stuff.
Politics in America (probably everywhere) has always been rancorous and divided. The historical record doesn’t really show anything else. We see some good stretches (and some awful ones) between about 1940 and 1990, but not much elsewhere in American history.
The filibuster and the veto were a part of that rancor. The filibuster has only now finally been revealed for the obscenity that it is, now that it can’t be ignored, but in a society which bases itself upon the idea that the will of the majority should rule, 60% cannot be the requirement for legislation to pass.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 15, 2010 10:50 AM PDT up reply actions
yes and no
Politics in America (probably everywhere) has always been rancorous and divided. The historical record doesn’t really show anything else.
yes
The filibuster has only now finally been revealed for the obscenity that it is.
No. Something is different now.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
Yeah
What’s different is that it is being used.
A thing that is harmless when not used but stupid when used is, by definition, a stupid thing.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
There are many things
that are stupid when used stupidly and routinely, but not necessarily stupid if used when appropriate: alcohol, a gun in your house, credit cards, etc.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
Name one benefit that has ever flowed from the filibuster
I can certainly do so with each of your examples.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
LCJ and I have already named the benefit.
You disagree with it.
It is the slowness of change and the unity of the country that comes from ensuring that major changes do not come too quickly after a bare majority wants them.
You are impatient. You want a wrong to be righted the moment that it is recognized with no delay. We conservatives — I use the word in the Burkean sense* — feel there is value in waiting until a larger part of the national community is behind an idea, that there is risk in making a change that too large a portion of the community does not feel a part of.
The United States of America is a more unified nation than most, and I believe that a lot of it owes this conservative tradition, even if it sometimes had its costs. The nation today is more fractured and polarized than it has been in a long time. I do not believe that it has become fractured because Congress has abandoned conventions and started abusing various rules; I find it far more likely that the causation goes the other way.
*I recognize that this word is commonly used today to refer to a certain party and ideological view. I reject that definition and reclaim the word in its older sense.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
what defines a larger part of the national community?
51%? 60%?
There are certain things that actually should have something done about them before. DADT, for example, is one of them.
!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam
by cuppingmaster on Oct 15, 2010 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't think I agree about the causation.
I can go back and point to a specific lie carefully orchestrated by sitting Congresspeople that ignited each of the major policy-based firestorms of this election cycle. I can’t do it here, because of the ban on political discussion, but I promise you I can do that.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 15, 2010 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions
As far as slow change, that's fine when appropriate,
but there are too many things that have to be done now. Civil rights had to happen when it happened, and there are similar issues related to race, gender, and other demographic identifiers that have a similar urgency.
Another example: currently, the entirety of the legitimate scientific community is warning that the planet is in a specific danger that is still in large part preventable if specific policy actions are taken. For purposes of this discussion, we’ll call that danger an asteroid. This asteroid is on a collision course with the planet that cannot be stopped unless something is done about it. The quicker that something is done, the less likely that asteroid is to cause damage to the planet. Everybody in the scientific community knows what the fix is; the political community, not just here but everywhere, is resistant because of economic concerns, of all the silly reasons not to save the world, and because they want “more time to study the problem.”
Sometimes change has to be fast. It just does.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 15, 2010 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions
Two problems with that.
(1) Sometimes the change doesn’t work. Maybe it really is necessary, but if it’s too abrupt it doesn’t work and something breaks.
(2) Your view depends on always knowing what it is that needs to change right now. Maybe you think you’re right but you’re wrong. The extra buffer gives more time to be sure of what’s really right.
Your example specifies that everybody in the scientific community knows the answer to your hypothetical asteroid problem. With real world problems, sometimes everybody really does know the answer, but sometimes 51% think they know and they really don’t.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
Three responses.
1) Naturally, change doesn’t always work. I might go so far as to say it rarely works the first time, but it quite often is a step in the right direction, and it at least lets us know what doesn’t work, and usually gives us insights into what will.
2) My hypothetical asteroid problem was a stand-in for a real global crisis that legitimate scientists are in virtual 100% agreement on.
3) This whole slowing down democracy idea just runs counter to the principles of majority rule. If the majority wants it done, the majority should be able to get it done. If the will of the majority tramples on minority rights, then the judiciary will sort it out.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 15, 2010 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions
I know what your #2 is.
I am deliberately going along with your decision NOT to discuss that directly.
Since the point of it is only as an example for a general case, I say again: sometimes everybody really does know the answer, and sometimes everybody thinks they know the answer.
To that I would also add that sometimes there is widespread agreement on what the problem is, but rather less agreement on how best to go about solving it.
With regard to #3, yeah, I get that that’s your position. I feel differently. I don’t support as pure a democracy as you do.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
I don't see that at all
I see raw power politics that will cause the minority party to, if possible, prevent any policy no matter how moderate so that it is better able to campaign in the next cycle.
HCR was essentially the Republican counter-proposal to Clinton. Cap/Trade was the Republican counter-proposal to an expansion of command/control mechanisms. The stimulus contained a huge amount of tax cuts. These are neither new ideas nor loony left wing ideas. All were filibustered.
The filibuster is not a principled objection, it’s a method for taking government hostage. It’s the reason that there are hundreds of judicial vacancies, not to mention other important jobs that are currently vacant.
And finally, for your point about “change that too large a portion of the community does not feel a part of,” do you think bipartisan bills are more likely to emerge when the minority party can simply vote no and demagogue or when the minority party cannot stop a bill and must choose whether to demagogue or offer changes? I come down solidly on the latter.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Again, you are talking about post-1970
and I’m talking about historical principle. I agree with you that our system has been fubar since ~1970.
I’m not opposed to changing the filibuster rule, by the way. I think it’s a symptom and not the cause, but there can be short-term value in treating the symptom. I don’t believe in throwing out the Senate or the Constitution or the political principles behind it on account of our government not working well for the past few decades.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
I think it's more of a cause than you do, clearly
I also don’t think removing the filibuster rule would be “throwing out the Senate or the Constitution or the political principles behind it”
The Constitution/principles behind it has absolutely nothing to do with the filibuster. Again, it was a rule change made accidentally (i.e. not intending to create this requirement) decades later.
To the extent you see removing the filibuster rule as throwing out the Senate (presumably because it is such an integral part) just shows how screwed up the system is. It wasn’t an integral part until precisely when you agree things went to shit.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
I was not equating the two;
I was contrasting them for clarity.
Earlier in the thread St Joe Burning and someone else were making noises about how the Constitution is broken so we should toss it out and have a real democracy instead.
I was clarifying to you that in all my Burkean talk I’m really just opposing that, not defending the current f’ed up filibuster system.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
Oh, fair enough
I think a lot of people think the filibuster does have that status, so I projected onto you.
I take your side on this point.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
2/5 of all Americans?!
No. Not close. A law which is disliked by barely over 5% of the citizens (a majority of the population in the 20 smallest-population states) can, in theory, be defeated— as long as it’s the specially-privileged members of the “right” 5%.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
And in fact, getting an outright MAJORITY of the Senate takes, unless my mental math is way off,
less than 10% of the population.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
You realize this has exactly zero to do with the founding fathers or the constitution right?
The filibuster was not their idea, and there was no way of predicting the extreme population differences between N.D. and CA.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
There is evidence that the FFs'
were opposed to too much size difference between states. You can see this in the debates about borders for the new states. That states like California and Texas aren’t busted up is arguably contrary to the FFs’ intentions.
(By the way, have I mentioned yet on this thread that the phrase “Founding Fathers” was coined by the master of bloviation himself, the great Warren G Harding?)
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
The current population disparity is not even an order of magnitude greater
than the disparities at the time of the constitutional convention. Back then the ratio of largest to smallest populations was about 20:1; now it is about 70:1. Divergence of populations among states, to the extent that it has occurred, was easily predictable.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Virginia was only about 12x Delaware
And if you’re seriously suggesting they should have expected a state like CA that is both huge and pretty densely populated you’re, quite frankly, out to lunch.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
They might not have expected the level of population density that CA has,
but surely they could have expected that population centers would differ in size and density.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 14, 2010 4:15 PM PDT up reply actions
Of course differ
But there’s a difference between 12x and 70x that you just can’t wave away or blame anyone for not seeing.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
I don't see the difference right now
Like I said, it’s not even an order of magnitude. How much is “too much”? Where is the line to be drawn? Why draw it there? Why is even 12x acceptable, except as the use of preexisting minority power to entrench itself in a new form?
(You’re right about the 12x thing though. I was confused by seeing the 1790 census for Tennessee, which was about 1/20th of Virginia, and forgetting that it wasn’t a state at the time.)
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
If you look at the debates over
the new states entering the union within a generation of the Constitution, I think you’ll find that they tried to size each one so that when it was fully grown it would fall somewhere within the range of Virginia to Delaware once it was fully grown.
12x was tolerable because that’s the states they had at the time and they were able to compromise and agree to it. Had they had 70x, they probably wouldn’t have.
As for predicting that it would be 70x some time in the distant future, I’m with nevermoor: if you think they should have foreseen that, you’re out to lunch. I would add that you’re also out to lunch if you thought they were even planning for 200 years into the future.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
Right
It isn’t that the magic number is 15x or something. It’s that they had 12x and it was a mandatory compromise to get the thing enacted.
There’s nothing magic about the number 10 such that changes over 10x are dramatically more important than changes under 10×.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Right
They assumed that the Constitution would be supplanted at some point, by convention or revolution, with a more appropriate document.
Surprisingly, this is exactly what I’ve been arguing for this whole thread.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
I suppose, in theory, that this is correct.
Not only would things have to break correctly with the particular states, the state appointment [prior to the 17th amendment] of the particular senators of those states would have had to been in place, and also overcome the staggered nature of the senators’ terms for something like this to actually happen.
This was the safeguard, the check/balance on centralizing power and the ability to legislate new law at the federal level. As I said before, [many of] the Founders deliberately kept much of the state sovereignty. I guess they felt that if one state thought a particular law was a great idea, it could be tried, tested, and observed at the state level first, where the push/pull factors can be witnessed on a smaller scale without subjecting all Americans to it right from jump street.
by LowcountryJoe on Oct 14, 2010 2:56 AM PDT up reply actions
Or in other words...
it could be tried, tested, and observed at the state level first, where the push/pull factors can be witnessed on a smaller scale
…small sample size.
If states want to be sovereign, they can just go right ahead and secede. That’s what sovereignty means. And just watch what happens. They’ll lose even harder this time.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 14, 2010 8:48 AM PDT up reply actions
As a practical matter...
If states want to be sovereign, they can just go right ahead and secede.
…there’s no way in hell that’s happening for a whole host of reasons [but I’ll limit my views to just three reasons]. One, it was tried and it resulted in war. Two, depending on the interpretation of Article I, Section 10 of the U.S. Constitution, the act of secession might be deemed unlawful [I know, if you disavow the document, how can one be made to abide by it?]. Three, if a non-border or non-coastal state were to try seceding, there’s no way they could reap the benefits of trade without gaining permission to traverse ground or airspace from the remaining United States — it would be the ultimate deal-breaker.
by LowcountryJoe on Oct 14, 2010 9:38 AM PDT up reply actions
Well then I guess they'd better get used to the idea of One Nation Under God.
If you believe in America, then you believe in one America, with a federal government that has the power to do what is needed, not 50 little sovereignties that don’t cooperate.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 14, 2010 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions
"One nation under God"
dates back to 1954. “One nation indivisible” dates back to 1892.
No one should be surprised that you have little regard for the Constitution, given that your vision of America goes back no further than William McKinley.
That’s not a criticism; it’s a valid point of view. But it has virtually nothing to do with the Founding Fathers; it has to do with the modern American empire.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
I was mostly being facetious with ONUG.
And I was also pointing out that regardless of what the framers intended, we live in one nation. I believe they intended it to be one nation, but I honestly don’t care what they intended. They were just a bunch of guys. Very smart and well-educated guys, and probably some of them were even really nice to hang out with. I personally align myself very closely to Thomas Paine.
But they were just a group of dudes, not the 12 apostles.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 15, 2010 10:55 AM PDT up reply actions
You are full of surprises.
Tom Paine? Most of what you’ve posted in this thread sounds to me like Napoleon Bonaparte, whom Paine did not exactly see eye to eye with.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
Shouldn't be that surprising.
1) He didn’t like George Washington.
2) In Common Sense, he makes a fine argument for strong central government.
3) In Common Sense, he also points out quite aptly why representational democracy is the only workable form of social decisionmaking.
4) In Common Sense he proposes a unicameral Congress.
5) In Agrarian Justice, he rejects the conventional idea of private property and proposes a truly radical shift in how it is considered, which includes redistribution of wealth and similar ideas. To wit: Thomas Paine was a socialist before socialism existed.
6) The Age of Reason is a fun read.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 15, 2010 12:44 PM PDT up reply actions
How do you feel about Proudhon?
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
Some of his stuff is interesting, but a bit heavy on shrill sloganeering on light on substance.
And I think anarchism is quaint at best and dangerous at worst.
In general, I prefer Paine to most other socialist thinkers, definitely including Marx and Engels, because with him it’s all straightforward argumentation, rhetoric, and analysis of why he’s correct. He lays out a very clear case and does it very well. The reason that neither he nor his works are remembered as socialist firebranding the way Proudhon (or at least his work) is remembered is that he didn’t reduce his thoughts to cheap catchphrases and he laid out clear, advanced cases for his arguments.
Human beings tend to abhor well-reasoned argumentation. They usually gravitate to the Limbaughs and the Bonos instead of the Frums and the Chomskys.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 15, 2010 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions
and* light on substance, I should say.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 15, 2010 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions
Chomsky fascinates me.
Sometimes I think he’s brilliant; other times I think he’s a buffoon.
Your part in this discussion has made me want to read more Paine. If you’ve persuaded me of anything at all, it’s that. (And we can probably both agree that’s a constructive accomplishment indeed.)
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
I agree with your categorization of Chomsky
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Oct 16, 2010 9:09 PM PDT up reply actions
His first initial is T, and his last name is Paine.
Someone should read a T-Paine document and auto-tune it.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 18, 2010 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions
The reason for direct appointment of senators
Is that the founders didn’t trust non-rich people, and figured the HoR would be chaotic and stupid but the Senate would be suitable to lead the country.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
I disagree with what you cited as the reason.
And though I cannot prove it with historic documentation, I believe that the FFs knew that there would be a certain tension between state office holders and federal office holders — the state office holders having the ability to retain/cede power. Even though the state office holders would be the ones who determined the U.S. Senate appointments, those state office holders still had to be responsive to the voters of the state who, in turn, elected the state office holders according to the specific state constitution guidlines.
by LowcountryJoe on Oct 14, 2010 9:29 AM PDT up reply actions
And the voters of the state were...
white male adult property-owners.
So the idea was (1) even white male adult property-owners can’t really be trusted, but we’ll give ‘em the house; (2) to rein in the house (PT is right here, I was wrong), we’ll let each state’s real elites select two presumably elites to sit in the senate; and (3) with indirect appointment and long terms, Senators will be insulated from the whimsy of the white male adult property-owners
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Which state are you talking about?
Or do you think all of the states had the same voting laws on the books?
by LowcountryJoe on Oct 14, 2010 9:41 AM PDT up reply actions
My understanding is that they shared that restriction
Am I wrong?
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
I don't don't know?
It was honestly a question and not meant to be rhetorical. I could have phrased it differently.
by LowcountryJoe on Oct 14, 2010 9:48 AM PDT up reply actions
Varied a lot
but yes, I believe they all initially had property qualifications.
Although— this is not widely known— New Jersey permitted property-qualified women to vote between 1790 and 1803.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
They weren't "the same" in the sense that the details of the qualifications were different
but all of them used some variant on that system.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Some cites
Federalist 62:
The necessity of a senate is not less indicated by the propensity of all single and numerous assemblies to yield to the impulse of sudden and violent passions, and to be seduced by factious leaders into intemperate and pernicious resolutions. Examples on this subject might be cited without number; and from proceedings within the United States, as well as from the history of other nations. But a position that will not be contradicted, need not be proved. All that need be remarked is, that a body which is to correct this infirmity ought itself to be free from it, and consequently ought to be less numerous. It ought, moreover, to possess great firmness, and consequently ought to hold its authority by a tenure of considerable duration.
Federalist 64:
As the select assemblies for choosing the President, as well as the State legislatures who appoint the senators, will in general be composed of the most enlightened and respectable citizens, there is reason to presume that their attention and their votes will be directed to those men only who have become the most distinguished by their abilities and virtue, and in whom the people perceive just grounds for confidence.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
How is this a better system of responsiveness than direct election of Senators?
Furthermore, if you can’t prove a historical claim with historical documentation, then you’re not making a historical claim. It would be interesting if your hypothesis was true, but as of right now, it’s not.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 14, 2010 9:34 AM PDT up reply actions
I don't think it was designed for reponsiveness
I think it ws designed with prudence in mind.
Furthermore, if you can’t prove a historical claim with historical documentation, then you’re not making a historical claim.
I offered an opinion that I think may have some substance. How else should I have written what I did?
by LowcountryJoe on Oct 14, 2010 9:52 AM PDT up reply actions
It may have been more prudent then, but what end would it accomplish now?
And with regard to your belief on the Founders’ prognostication of tension between the federal and state levels, obviously they knew that two people have the potential to not get along, but it doesn’t add much to a historical discussion to put forth a viewpoint like that without so much as a letter somebody wrote to back it up. That was my point.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 14, 2010 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions
...
It may have been more prudent then, but what end would it accomplish now?
Now? With the way the senate is elected, nothing. But, without the 17th amendment, it still would have brought prudence.
And with regard to your belief on the Founders’ prognostication of tension between the federal and state levels, obviously they knew that two people have the potential to not get along, but it doesn’t add much to a historical discussion to put forth a viewpoint like that without so much as a letter somebody wrote to back it up.
Anti-Federalist Paper #63 does, I believe, get at this.
by LowcountryJoe on Oct 14, 2010 4:40 PM PDT up reply actions
The Senate was instituted to keep power out of the hands of the masses, because the Founding Fathers knew that a lot of people are dumb.
I don’t blame them for being afraid of mass stupidity; it’s a human inevitability. But nonetheless, if they wanted to take control away from the people, they should have crafted a dictatorship. No one can explain why centralized power is a bad thing. You can’t just decide that one thing is a virtue and one thing is a sin. You have to provide a warrant for that claim.
I’m paraphrasing a character from a Robert Heinlein novel
Heinlein was a mysognist. Vonnegut and PKD saved science fiction (and then the next generation of Heinleins ruined it again.)
If a law is disliked by as many as two-fifths of all Americans is it not likely that all of us Americans would be better off without it?
First of all, Paul makes an excellent point below about what representation in the Senate actually means, since it isn’t proportional. Second, the answer to the question is a resounding NO. If two-fifths of all Americans don’t like a Presidential candidate, it doesn’t mean that we would all be better off without it. It doesn’t mean that we wouldn’t be better off, either. It doesn’t mean ANYTHING except that 60% voted for him and 40% didn’t. The voice of the people, whether in the form of a 60% majority or a 40% minority, is not an accurate judgment of the rightness of anything; it’s an accurate judgment of popularity.
Let the individual states pass more laws.
This is proven to drive up costs and decrease enforcement. Economies of scale begin to work against the market—and of course, the penalties are passed on to the customer, while any incremental savings never are, because that isn’t what the market does. Meanwhile, without a centralized government to enforce things like environmental regulation, enforcement is meaningless and patchwork.
In today’s universalized society, patchwork hodgepodge governance just isn’t feasible anymore.
If these laws really are such great ideas, they will catch on and eventually spread across the states, each state giving its own appropriate and measured flavor to what the constituency wants.
List of great ideas that did not catch on like that and/or would never have caught on like that: joining World War II. Ending slavery. Desegregation. The Equal Rights Amendment. Social Security. Medicare. Medicaid. The Federal Bureau of Investigation. The Interstate highway system. Amtrak. The Federal Aviation Administration. The Environmental Protection Agency. The Department of Education. The National Labor Relations Board…do I need to go on?
List of great ideas that were destroyed by centralized government: uhm…
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 14, 2010 8:42 AM PDT up reply actions
Selected responses
I don’t blame them for being afraid of mass stupidity; it’s a human inevitability. But nonetheless, if they wanted to take control away from the people, they should have crafted a dictatorship. No one can explain why centralized power is a bad thing. You can’t just decide that one thing is a virtue and one thing is a sin. You have to provide a warrant for that claim.
- I am now at the border of the line — the line where if I crossed it, it would result in a CGV — and wont respond the way the I wish that I could.
- I could explain why I think centralized power is a bad thing so it’s not accurate to write that no one can. You may not like or agree with my explanation but that’s a far different arguement than stating that no one could. But, to be as subtle as I know how, there’s a word you used somewhere after the word “crafted” that ties into my explanation.
- I also don’t understand the the seemingly contradictory stance that a flaw of state appointments of senators [prior to the 17th amendment] was that it was unresponsive to the wishes of the people [who were already being represented in the HoR] when those people were, as you put it, dumb and suffer from stupidy.
If two-fifths of all Americans don’t like a Presidential candidate, it doesn’t mean that we would all be better off without it. It doesn’t mean that we wouldn’t be better off, either.
I specifically mentioned this as it relates to legislation being passed. I did not write this in regards to the president (the administrator) that is elected to the executive branch.
This is proven to drive up costs and decrease enforcement. Economies of scale begin to work against the market—and of course, the penalties are passed on to the customer, while any incremental savings never are, because that isn’t what the market does. Meanwhile, without a centralized government to enforce things like environmental regulation, enforcement is meaningless and patchwork.
Isn’t liberty a cost, too? Isn’t there any federal legislation that you find abhorent but was passed along narrow (or may even quite wide) margins that you wish was never legislated?
In today’s universalized society, patchwork hodgepodge governance just isn’t feasible anymore.
Is this viewpoint of yours maintained when thinking about society in its more broad and global terms? I think you answered this above. So, if it is, in your view an obstacle to good governance, would you wish every nation adopt the same uniform methods of governance? And, if so, should it look more like the U.S., North Korea, Scandinavian countries, Saudi Arabia, Australia, Zimbabwe, Venezuela, or Singapore?
List of great ideas that did not catch on like that and/or would never have caught on like that:…
You cannot possibly know that these ideas [some of them the greatness of which could be debated] wouldn’t have caught on if adopted first by states We do know that Massachusetts has recently done some things that could serve as a springboard for wider acceptance. Ditto California. These things have led to debate, so please don’t use the word “never”.
List of great ideas that were destroyed by centralized government: uhm…
Ideas? Hmm. Possibly none. Concepts and institutions? A few that I found important. But I’ll leave it at that line that I’m getting close to crossing.
by LowcountryJoe on Oct 14, 2010 10:31 AM PDT up reply actions
Selected responses to the selected responses.
I could explain why I think centralized power is a bad thing so it’s not accurate to write that no one can.
You’re right. I should have said, “No one will,” or “no one seems able to.”
But, to be as subtle as I know how, there’s a word you used somewhere after the word "crafted" that ties into my explanation.
I think I know which word you mean. And that’s not a black-and-white issue either. Dictatorship is not a swear word. It is a discussion point like any other, and not automatically an evil. It all depends on your priorities. For example, while Venezuelans are starting to become fed up with Hugo Chavez, for years he was popular because the poorest people in the world don’t care about liberty; they care about not being poor anymore.
I also don’t understand the the seemingly contradictory stance that a flaw of state appointments of senators [prior to the 17th amendment] was that it was unresponsive to the wishes of the people [who were already being represented in the HoR] when those people were, as you put it, dumb and suffer from stupidy.
The country is designed to be representational. I’m not a huge fan of democracy/republicanism, but like the fella says, it’s better than all the other forms of government. So until someone can come up with a better one, it would be nice if the current democracies/republics would be faithful to their tenets.
I specifically mentioned this as it relates to legislation being passed. I did not write this in regards to the president (the administrator) that is elected to the executive branch.
Right, and I expanded the conversation with an illustrative analogy to explain why I find the position untenable.
Isn’t liberty a cost, too?
A cost of what?
Isn’t there any federal legislation that you find abhorent but was passed along narrow (or may even quite wide) margins that you wish was never legislated?
Most of it. But that’s the way it works living in a country ruled by the will of the people.
Is this viewpoint of yours maintained when thinking about society in its more broad and global terms? I think you answered this above. So, if it is, in your view an obstacle to good governance, would you wish every nation adopt the same uniform methods of governance? And, if so, should it look more like the U.S., North Korea, Scandinavian countries, Saudi Arabia, Australia, Zimbabwe, Venezuela, or Singapore?
Yes, yes, and Europe.
You cannot possibly know that these ideas [some of them the greatness of which could be debated] wouldn’t have caught on if adopted first by states
Not off the top of the dome, no, but there is copious historical scholarship to demonstrate my point. Obviously, you can’t ever know something like this 100%, and I should have made that clear in my wording, but it’s as close as you can come in an area of speculative history.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 14, 2010 1:32 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes, I definitely am.
I don’t think I ever said I was pro-Senate.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 11, 2010 7:13 PM PDT up reply actions
The Senate's job is to be disbanded by the Emperor.
Fear will keep the star systems in line.
by LoneStranger on Oct 12, 2010 9:54 AM PDT up reply actions
So this is how subtlety dies...
…in George Lucas’ awful dialogue in the prequel trilogy.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 12, 2010 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Whereas the dialogue in the first three was great?
I love me some Star Wars, but it sure as hell isn’t because the dialogue was oscar worthy
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
This is what I don't get about people who bash the prequels.
They digested the classic trilogy when they were six (for example). Twenty two years later, they aren’t the same person with the same “awesome” meter that they once had. Of course the new movies aren’t going to be as cool in their eyes.
However, you give a fresh six year old all six movies now and they aren’t going to think the same way. They’ll eat all six of them up.
by LoneStranger on Oct 13, 2010 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions
I spent several years not watching the OT for the express purpose of attempting to look at it with fresh eyes.
Visually, ANH doesn’t look very good, although it’s naturally far superior to anything else that came out for quite a few years after it. In terms of acting, it was actually one of the stronger ones: Tarkin, Vader, and Obi-Wan were all portrayed by some pretty heavyweight serious actors with some pretty impressive pedigrees. And yes, the dialogue is stilted at times, but nothing like the PT.
ESB is really one of the better mainstream movies of all time from a cinematographic standpoint. Irvin Kirshner hit his job so far out of the park that George Lucas seems to have gotten uncomfortable with it and now usually says ESB is his least favorite of the Star Wars movies, whereas he used to say it was the best. The main actors only continue to improve, and this film was really where John Williams revolutionized film scoring. The visual effects really come into their own in ESB as well, and the dialogue, while certainly not of the everyday-American variety, presents well because of its context: this is high drama in space.
RotJ obviously suffers because of the Ewoks, but so what. Still a great exercise in how you can make going back to the well entertaining. The main actors fully realize their character work in this one, the visual effects continue to astound—especially when you remember that the Battle of Endor is all done with models. There’s no graphics work there, that’s all models, and it still looks a thousand times better than any space battle in the PT. Don’t be surprised: things that exist look more real than things that don’t. The uncanny valley in animation wouldn’t be crossed until much later, when Dr. Manhattan’s “situation” finally made it clear, in Watchmen, that CGI had fully arrived at realism.
If you can get your hands on the fanedits that recut the special edition footage into the original unaltered trilogy so you get the best possible transfers of the unaltered OT, do so. It’s worth the watch.
I tried to like the Prequel Trilogy, and for a few years, I did. I kept forgiving the glaring continuity errors, the horrifically stupid dramatic missteps, and the wooden acting, and to be honest, I still think Revenge of the Sith is a little better than ANH, but only a little. And I’ve seen fanedits of both AotC and RotS that make them worthwhile additions to the saga. But no one can defend the Phantom Menace. It had a cool lightsaber battle, but other than that, everything you learned from that film, you learned MUCH better and more exhaustively from the book “Cloak of Deception.” That book was on a Dune level of political intrigue mixed with Star Wars level awesomeness.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 14, 2010 9:03 AM PDT up reply actions
Part of me wants to say that you over-analyze and that's why you don't like the PT as much.
The other part of me things you and I would get along really well because of the analysis. I’m almost certain that we’re the only two people on this site who have read Cloak of Deception.
by LoneStranger on Oct 14, 2010 9:22 AM PDT up reply actions
Until this comment, I was certain I was the only human being that had read Cloak of Deception.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 14, 2010 9:29 AM PDT up reply actions
I think even I would not go so far as to say
that Williams’ ESB score “revolutionized” film scoring. I’m too aware of the history of film scores to make such a bold claim.
Nevertheless, I appreciate and fully agree with your recognition of the greatness of that particular score. I think it’s probably still JW’s best.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
What JW did was transform film scoring from more classical composing to an emphasis on poppiness and memorability.
The “theme” idea was woefully underused and poorly done, by and large, before JW. I don’t think guys like Hans Zimmer, David Arnold, or even Michael Kamen come along and do what they do later if not for JW, and to a lesser extent John Barry.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 15, 2010 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions
I don't understand what you mean by
“classical composing”.
Do you not find “poppiness and memorability” in, say, Prokofiev? If anything, JW brought film scoring back to its operatic roots.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
I challenge you to find as many people who can recognize a ton of Prokofiev
as can recognize a ton of John Williams. What I mean by “classical composing” vs. “poppiness” is, JW’s compositions are not respectable as orchestral works the way the work of someone like a Beethoven or a Haydn or a J.S. Bach is. JW focuses around themes, rather more like a musical than more traditional orchestral composition, which are memorable, hummable, catchy, whatever you want to call it.
A lot of scoring before that didn’t do those things. Perhaps revolutionized isn’t the right word, since he didn’t invent his methodology, but he fulfilled the methodology in a way that no one else did. Film scoring as a field changes on a seismic level after Star Wars, and particularly after The Empire Strikes Back.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 15, 2010 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't see what Beethoven or Haydn
has to do with film scoring. I’m still not understanding what you mean by classical. Would you class as “classical” composers like Max Steiner, Bernard Herrmann or David Raksin?
I’m asking because I’m trying to get a sense of what you think JW moved away from. I tend to think of his best scores as a return to past greatness rather than a break from past mediocrity. That’s why I don’t understand your “classical” comment.
This may be a contextual difference. The bulk of my knowledge of film scores is from about 1930 to 1955. I’m not very familiar with scoring from the 1960s or 1970s.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
Classical in the broader context of music, not classical in the sense of film scoring alone.
What I mean is that his work is structurally and intellectually more similar to pop music than to fine art music. Not in terms of the instruments used, but in terms of what he does with them. His music tends to be much more obvious and simple. A lot of film scoring from the 30s, 40s, and 50s (although I grant I’m somewhat less versed in those decades than in later ones) either had too much fine artistic integrity or was just really, really bad (the latter problem continues to this day.)
You can compare JW’s score in ESB to something like Wagner, but where Wagner makes his work ever more complex and difficult and demanding of the listener, JW generally takes the easier ways out. This isn’t a knock; it’s what makes him more effective as a film scorer than Wagner would have been. Part of this also comes from JW’s very clear understanding that his work serves the film, that his music is not the goal; I think he brings that to the table in a way that few scorers before him did.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 15, 2010 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions
I think I perceive "classical" music
differently than you do. Some of this may be due to my tilt toward opera.
I mentioned Wagner because he does leitmotivs and you seemed to be discussing similar techniques in film, but let’s forget about him and consider Puccini. Puccini very much took the “easy way out”, was blatantly tuneful and memorable. Verdi was too, albeit with a different style.
I guess the part I disagree with is where you equate classical with “complex and difficult and demanding of the listener”. How is anything by Mozart more “demanding” than, say, the Battle in the Snow?
I also disagree with your implication that “classical” composers don’t feel that the music exists to serve the work. Wagner certainly believed that, and so did Puccini. Most opera composers after Wagner were deeply committed to the idea of the music serving the story. Castelnuovo-Tedesco, albeit a mediocre composer, would have inherited that tradition and possibly influenced John Williams accordingly.
I think our only disagreement here is semantic. I sense we have non-overlapping music background, but where we do overlap we seem to agree about JW and about music generally. I just think your definition of classical is backward. I think JW, and ESB in particular, are great precisely because they are more classical.
By the way, I recommend you study classic Prokofiev film scores — Nevsky, Potemkin, Ivan Grozny. Prokofiev’s film scoring is fantastic. Especially Nevsky. Every few years the SF Symphony will do a performance with the actual film on a screen and the symphony accompanying live. I highly recommend it.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
It's the same point that it's always had
To interfere with and obstruct beneficial legislation so that elites can extract concessions to protect their position.
It’s very clear that that is the reason why the Constitution was structured as it was. The Founders deliberately put in chokepoint after chokepoint to ensure that it was nearly impossible to effect major change without elite consensus.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Not really
They put in the house and senate because there were big states and small states. They nerfed the presidency because they didn’t want a king. They created the vague outline of a judiciary because judges are important.
The big choke points in today’s government have nothing at all to do with the founders.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
I would suggest rereading the Federalist
The intent to make the process of legislative change slow and difficult is very clear. It was a direct response to the 1780s, when legislation (particularly debt legislation) at the state level threw the financial system into chaos.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
I disagree
You’re correct about the reason — paying for federal debt as it related to foreign policy, future defense, and paying for the the concluded Revolutionary War. But clearly the new document [the constitution] made the process of legilative change faster than what it had been under the Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union. The constitution really did centralize the power to the federal government more than it had been before.
by LowcountryJoe on Oct 13, 2010 5:29 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes, in a sense
but by sending many issues previously dominated by the states to the central government, the Constitution effectively slowed change in those areas.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Which federalist?
And which choke point are you talking about?
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Federalist papers?
Disagree on the constitution strengthening the federal branch…..What was the federal government back then? The post office and a rag-tag army?
Sure, but there are many numbered papers in the collection
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
How can you not think the Constitution
strengthened the federal branch? Before the Constitution there barely even was a federal branch. The Constitution didn’t just strengthen it, it practically created it.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
I concede Iglew
But the articles of confederation in practice proved to be very incompetent:there needed to be a change.
This is real quick and dirty, so don't eat me if it's not perfect, but...
On debt, from #15:
Is public credit an indispensable resource in time of public danger? We seem to have abandoned its cause as desperate and irretrievable. Is commerce of importance to national wealth? Ours is at the lowest point of declension. Is respectability in the eyes of foreign powers a safeguard against foreign encroachments? The imbecility of our government even forbids them to treat with us. Our ambassadors abroad are the mere pageants of mimic sovereignty. Is a violent and unnatural decrease in the value of land a symptom of national distress? The price of improved land in most parts of the country is much lower than can be accounted for by the quantity of waste land at market, and can only be fully explained by that want of private and public confidence, which are so alarmingly prevalent among all ranks, and which have a direct tendency to depreciate property of every kind. Is private credit the friend and patron of industry? That most useful kind which relates to borrowing and lending is reduced within the narrowest limits, and this still more from an opinion of insecurity than from the scarcity of money.
On the role of the Senate, from #62:
Another advantage accruing from this ingredient in the constitution of the Senate is, the additional impediment it must prove against improper acts of legislation. No law or resolution can now be passed without the concurrence, first, of a majority of the people, and then, of a majority of the States. It must be acknowledged that this complicated check on legislation may in some instances be injurious as well as beneficial; and that the peculiar defense which it involves in favor of the smaller States, would be more rational, if any interests common to them, and distinct from those of the other States, would otherwise be exposed to peculiar danger. But as the larger States will always be able, by their power over the supplies, to defeat unreasonable exertions of this prerogative of the lesser States, and as the faculty and excess of law-making seem to be the diseases to which our governments are most liable, it is not impossible that this part of the Constitution may be more convenient in practice than it appears to many in contemplation.
Emphasis added, natch.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Depends whom you mean by "the Founders"
That’s a fair description of men like Hamilton or Jay. But surely not of men like Madison or Jefferson, not to mention fringy dissident types like Patrick Henry, Edmund Randolph, George Mason, etc. The latter two were heavily involved in the drafting of the Constitution, in spite of being marginalized by the politics that followed.
If you or others define “Founding Fathers” as Hamilton’s party, then I understand much of your disdain for them, but I think that’s a narrow view of the founding of our nation’s government.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
Madison was very much with Madison and Jay and even became the leading voice of the trio
And then, after getting all the legwork done on the main articles contained in the constitution, the guy seemingly did a 180 after listening to the pleas of his fellow Virginians.
The latter two were heavily involved in the drafting of the Constitution
More specifically, the Bill of Rights.
by LowcountryJoe on Oct 14, 2010 3:07 AM PDT up reply actions
Correction:
Madison was very much with Hamilton and Jay.
by LowcountryJoe on Oct 14, 2010 3:08 AM PDT up reply actions
Randolph authored the Virginia plan, did he not?
While obviously his plan was not adopted directly, I was under the impression that he was still heavily involved in drafting the compromise document, even though ultimately he did not sign it. Mason’s participation was primarily as a dissenter in debate, so I’m probably wrong in claiming his involvement in “drafting” but I guess I still perceive him as influential.
For what it’s worth, when I speak of “the Constitution”, I do think of the Bill of Rights as part of it. Perhaps that’s illogical, but it’s what I think. If others are defining it differently, that could explain some of our disagreement.
I was unaware of Madison’s 180 as you describe it. If that’s true, then perhaps my impression of him is too oriented to the post-shift Madison with which I am more familiar.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
I'd say the first Judiciary Act is effectively part of the Constitution too
It’s the part of Article III which wasn’t actually part of Article III.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Did the 17th amendment cause this to be the case?
Nope. Aaron Burr fucked that one up all by his lonesome.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
-
Did the 17th amendment cause this to be the case?
No, gross abuse of the filibuster did. Over the past 10-20 years, the filibuster has become a tool with which minorities prevent majority rule from taking place. We live in a representative system: the people elect representatives, those representatives make decisions on behalf of the people. If there are 58 Senators who vote yes on a policy, that means that policy should pass. When it doesn’t, it’s extremely counter-democratic, unless the policy would codify bigotry or would damage someone’s rights. The filibuster was meant to protect the rights of the minority, not simply to be a parliamentary tool with which to defy, and eventually subvert, the will of the people.
One by one, the articles in the U.S. Constitution will be undone and the parallels to Orwell’s Animal Farm will surface.
That’s not really an argument. This is exactly the wrong way to use political allegory as a discussion tool. You can’t just say “Animal Farm lol” and call it an effective counterpoint. You don’t defend the Constitution, you just take it on faith that it’s important and say, without any warrant, that moving away from the Constitution will cause the nation to become like a George Orwell book.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 9, 2010 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions
I'd throw it out entirely.
We don’t need a Constitution. It’s no longer important. It’s the kind of thing that is necessary for a fledgling nation to help guide it through the early steps of modernization and democracy, but it only hinders us at this stage in our life as a country. We are, at this point, one of the oldest (if not the oldest—I don’t want to do the research) modern nation-states, in the sense that the current incarnation of the United States of America existed before the current incarnations of most other modern nation-states. We don’t need the Constitution anymore. We don’t need one set of laws to be held up on a pedestal above all others. It’s unnecessary.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 9, 2010 11:38 AM PDT up reply actions
I'm pretty sure we are the oldest unreformed government.
As for throwing it out, although it’s not entirely on point, I feel compelled to quote Burke:
It is with infinite caution that any man ought to venture upon pulling down an edifice which has answered in any tolerable degree for ages the common purposes of society, or on building it up again without having models and patterns of approved utility before his eyes.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
Well, we have different perspectives, I suppose.
I’m thinking more in terms of history and beauty, not so much as a blueprint for government, which as you noted we don’t really use it for anyway.
I’m curious what you think of the preamble. I really really love the preamble.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
I like everyone here, so I'm going to try my best not to sound dismissive
I think many of us are greatly overstating our cases.
The Constitution is not an all-encompassing document. It couldn’t have been. There were and are many situations and developments the framers could not have foreseen (which, under original intent theory, results in fun little exercises like Justice Scalia picking a random quote from whatever forefather that suits his own opinion for any given case. But anyway). One of the outcomes of this reality is that some spheres of the American political process have been developed by judicial opinion, as Paul mentioned.
This is a sprawling subject, so I’m going to keep my focus on the Bill of Rights. Which, depending on how much of a slave to semantics you are, might properly be called a different document. But let’s agree that they exist with reference to the Constitution and so must be considered coextensive. Are we suggesting that those rights are so ingrained in our culture that we don’t need the Constitution anymore? Are we suggesting that they have existed in law for so long that the original written document is no longer necessary? Because I’m a little lost, here.
Each year we see extremely important issues addressed by the Supreme Court that affect our individual daily lives—4th Amendment search and seizure law and the variety of guarantees under the 6th Amendment seem particularly pertinent—and these opinions are obviously grounded in the Bill of Rights. I may have officially been an attorney for only 3 weeks, but I’ve been working in criminal litigation for a couple of years. The one theme I’ve seen is that the state often sees the exercise of fundamental rights as an annoying frustration of justice. The thought of blowing off the Constitution entirely seems consistent with that attitude, insomuch as it seems a little blasé about the gravity of what it contemplates.
Personally, I want that document. I want each citizen to have it on hand and to be versed in it so they know how to defend themselves. The Constitution is only ossified if you don’t believe that it lives on with each new subtlety, with each refined interpretation.
"I've made a huge little mistake." - G.O.B.
I didn't say "don't have a constitution"
That was SJBTODSIPUIEROURE&^%%SF’s argument.
I just said our constitution sucks compared to many others.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
No
It was written by a committee of American lawyers over the course of about three days in early 1946. MacArthur had no direct role in the process, other than to reject the (completely different, and frankly unacceptable) draft which had been created by the Japanese civilian leadership.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Thanks for dispelling a SF Myth PT
Driving through the MacArthur tunnell the thought of his role in guiding the Japanese parliament would occasionally cross my mind.
His whole role in the occupation has become shrouded in a kind of mythological haze
I would strongly recommend the book “Embracing Defeat,” by John Dower, to anyone interested in legal and political history. In addition to the true stories of the new Japanese constitution, MacArthur, and Hirohito during that period, it’s full of fascinating (and sometimes titillating) detail about the way in which the occupation played out
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
That's not all, though.
Two people trading with one another makes one — or even a thirdy party to the transaction — suffer => “Financial success within a capitalist framework has a direct correlation to the suffering of those without the opportunities to achieve similar outcomes. So, again, yeah, we probably should.”
by LowcountryJoe on Oct 8, 2010 8:35 PM PDT up reply actions
The Constitution codified slavery.
It is frequently used, not as a tool for protecting the downtrodden, but for institutionalizing divisiveness. The moment people started proposing amendments that would make it illegal to (you know what I’m talking about, I’m trying not to get a CGV, so use your imagination), that should have been the end of the conversation about the usefulness of the Constitution.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 9, 2010 11:36 AM PDT up reply actions
Imagine no constitution...
The moment people started proposing amendments that would make it illegal to (you know what I’m talking about, I’m trying not to get a CGV, so use your imagination), that should have been the end of the conversation about the usefulness of the Constitution.
…and the issue being put up to popular, majority-rule vote? Outcome prefereable then? Maybe you have, and I’m just offbase here, but have you thought this through? Failed amendment proposals are one thing…
by LowcountryJoe on Oct 10, 2010 6:28 AM PDT up reply actions
When majority rule tramples minority rights, that's when the independent judiciary steps in.
When all other avenues have failed, I put my faith in the Supreme Court. More and more, that’s the kind of governance I think I’d prefer: elected for life. Not beholden to anyone to be re-elected. Obviously impeachability would be important, but in general, a life term. No re-elections. The Presidency obviously couldn’t work that way, but that’s what I’d do with Congress.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 11, 2010 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions
The SCOTUS hears cases where issues of __________ are present?
That underline above represents a word that would fill-in-the-blank nicely. Unfortunately/fortunately under your preference, we got rid of the root word and just “ality” remains.
by LowcountryJoe on Oct 11, 2010 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Judicial review has been established for centuries.
It might be time to get used to it.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 11, 2010 7:16 PM PDT up reply actions
You realize, though...
… that it’s the Constitution (or early interpretations of it) which give the judiciary the power to step in and do those things, yes?
"I've made a huge little mistake." - G.O.B.
No
It’s the political culture of the 1800s.
See, e.g., trail of tears.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
"John Marshall has made his decision.
Now let him enforce it."
I’m not quite sure what you’re getting at mentioning the Trail of Tears. The judiciary branch tried to stop Indian removal. It failed not because it wasn’t legally correct, but simply because the State of Georgia chose to ignore the ruling and a sympathetic president did nothing to enforce it.
(But I agree with you that judicial review is not explicit in the Constitution. The civics 101 explanation that it was established in Marbury v Madison seems correct to me.)
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
Exactly my point
The constitution can say whatever it damn well pleases, the reason judicial decisions are enforced is because we as a society usually demand it. I point to that event because the court was totally disregarded and the constitution hasn’t changed in this regard since.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Ah, I get it now.
As I said before, I love the Constitution for its inspiration and beauty, not for its practical power or lack thereof.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
I don't buy that
Marshall did not weave judicial review out of thin air. The Federalists were definitely familiar with, and favorable to, the concept (though applying it to federal as well as state-passed laws was somewhat novel). Conversely, the Anti-Federalists were distinctly creeped out by the notion that unelected federal judges would exercise significant control over state legislative powers.
The strong centralizers wanted an even more dominant federal court system than was eventually arrived at. Ultimately that was rejected at the Convention (which, as in so many other areas, split the baby on that issue) and the compromise has been reaffirmed by the Rooker-Feldman doctrine… thus preserving our splendidly inefficient, duplicative and needlessly expensive dual court system.
It should also be observed, though, that the court hardly ever invalidated federal legislation prior to Dred Scott, which a cynic might call the real foundational case of judicial review.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
This is tangential, but it's really funny to me that Federalism today is the rally cry of decentralizers.
It was about centralization originally.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 15, 2010 11:01 AM PDT up reply actions
I noticed that, too.
The opinions you have voiced in this thread are very much what I would call “federalist”, and yet you are pretty clearly on the opposite side from the guys who belong to groups with names like “the Federalist Society”
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
They stole Chief Bender and Eddie Plank from us after the 1914 World Series.
The Federal League can stick it.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 15, 2010 12:50 PM PDT up reply actions
Actually,
the use of the term by Guido Calabresi and the Federalist Society is the “original original” use of the term, before it was stolen by the pro-Constitution types.
I have no problem with their use of the term, any more than I fault a devotee of Alfred Marshall for calling himself a liberal.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Or a mostly-leftish devotee of Edmund Burke
for calling himself conservative?
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
Yes, at one time.
And now, we don’t need a Constitution to do that anymore.
I suppose I would be fine with having a Constitution that delineated the structure of government, no more and no less. No amendments; we have laws and a judiciary for all of that.
That’s what most Constitutions are, by the way: delineations of the structure of government.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 11, 2010 7:17 PM PDT up reply actions
We don't need a Constitution to do what any more?
Have judicial review? How do you imagine the Court will declare laws unconstitutional if there is no constitution. Are they empowered to just say, “this law is bad, so we annul it”?
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
by iglew on Oct 13, 2010 10:54 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yup.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 14, 2010 9:08 AM PDT up reply actions
Isn't that essentially what they do now?
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
this.
or were going to just make shit up re: Citizens United
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Oct 17, 2010 12:31 AM PDT up reply actions
I think it could be worse.
Right now only some decisions just make shit up.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
I think legislative officeholders should be chosen by lot
as was done in many ancient Greek cities.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Ah, so a fine vocabulary is not the only thing
you share with the late William F Buckley Jr.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
Yeah, this is just a dumb idea
CA has basically tried it with aggessive term limits. You get incompetents who are (even more) easily purchased by lobbyists.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Eh?
The term limit system bears almost no relationship to selection-of-legislators-by-lottery.
First off, lobbyists purchase support by paying for politicians to get reelected, especially when they’re trying to establish themselves. Term limits create lots of neophyte legislators trying to establish themselves (and selling themselves in the process). Lotteries create zero neophyte legislators trying to establish themselves. The odds of anyone ever serving two terms are tiny. Everyone is a lame duck.
Term limits also do not solve what might be called “the Douglas Adams rule of politics,” which is that almost no one who actually desires to govern others can be trusted to do so. Everyone who runs for office is still choosing to do so under term limits.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
I disagree completely with this
In the specific example of CA state government, term limits result in “legislators” who have to already have their eye on the next job when they get there (since they can’t stay very long). Legislators-by-lottery would have the same problem.
In a world with drive-by legislators, like what CA has, the lobbyists do buy reelections, but since that can only happen once anyway the other thing they do is provide “expertise.” Lotteries would create zero experienced legislators, so they’d have no choice but to adopt wholesale legislation drafted by special interest groups (or not legislate).
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Which is why I'm sort of in favor of longer term limits
It prevents them from spending all their time trying to get re-elected. Yes, you run the risk of having lobbyists install people simply for longer terms, but at least the people who get in there are forced to govern. Potentially, also, the legislators would feel less-indebted to lobbyists once it’s been, say, 4 years since they pumped money/influence into a re-election campaign.
FWIW, I like that term – drive-by legislators.
!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam
by cuppingmaster on Oct 15, 2010 9:29 AM PDT up reply actions
Elected for life.
I’m telling you, that’s the solution. Some people might not like Antonin Scalia or Sonia Sotomayor, but I don’t hear too many people concerned that either one has been bought.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 15, 2010 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions
No, because then they can be bought or really do anything without us having recourse
(Yes, I realize the irony of this statement). NO term limits would make it worse though!
It should be something really radical: lobbyists/corporations are required to post real money to the treasury (hundreds of millions/billions based on percentage of current revenue) if they want a certain law enacted. It bends the cost curve so that some of the super favorable laws they get enacted for next to nothing at least cost real money.
SCOTUS justices are unusually segregated from other governmental operations.
!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam
by cuppingmaster on Oct 15, 2010 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions
There's a difference between term limits and term length
I strongly favor no term limits, but infinite term length would be a terrible idea.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
yeah cup diction fail
!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam
by cuppingmaster on Oct 15, 2010 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions
Well first of all, a life-appointed official is still impeachable.
If he’s bought, he gets impeached.
Second, I’d be all in favor of lawmakers being insulated the way that the justices are. It couldn’t be a perfect system, but in general, the Supreme Court and the judiciary remain venerated and respected institutions. I’m in favor of expanding that. I don’t want my lawmakers beholden to anyone.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 15, 2010 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions
The most respected institutions in this country are the least democratic ones
The Federal Reserve and the army are the other two.
It’s remarkable how well-prepared this country is for a totalitarian coup. Put the right leadership in office and any semblance of democracy could be dead and buried in two years.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
All the more reason to maintain
the prestige of those cultural norms in the country which would oppose such a coup.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
Huh?
It’s no different from someone who takes time off for jury service, or who is called up into the National Guard. Just pass some USERRA clone as part of the restructuring.
As for lobbyists drafting legislation, just give people sufficiently strong support staffs and there’s no reason why they would need to adopt the proposals of lobbyists. They might anyway— but, well, so does Congress, which has no term limits. Congressmen do not draft their own laws.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
So you want temporary unskilled legislators
But its ok because their staffs are good?
And this makes sense to you / is practical how?
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
What do you mean by "codify"?
The Constitution acknowledged slavery because slavery was a reality in 1789. Anything else written at that time would have done the same. If you’re going to blame the Constitution for that, you should also give it credit for anticipating the end of slavery. The first paragraph of I:9 is comprehensible only in that context.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
Bingo
What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. Actually, I have no idea if that idiom applies, but you definitely have to credit Article 1 Section 9 with spelling out a death sentence for slavery, even if you disagree with how long it took the nation to carry it out.
"I've made a huge little mistake." - G.O.B.
When in Rome, you have to grab the hand of a badger's dad.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 11, 2010 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions
They could have outlawed it.
Quite a few of the framers wanted to do so. It wouldn’t have been impossible. But they didn’t, because they were men with failings and shortcomings, and their document had failings and shortcomings too. Its time has passed.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 11, 2010 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions
Or...
They could have outlawed it.
they could have keep the original Articles, or they could have had a serious split. Either way, the other outcomes would have kept things more decentralized than what you claim that you prefer. And, judging by what I have read, simply outlawing slavery in the constitution would have led to exactly one of those two things happening. This doesn’t make it right — it wasn’t right; but slavery was widely practiced throughout the globe, throughout history, and with all sorts of ethinicities being on both sides of its ugliness.
by LowcountryJoe on Oct 11, 2010 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions
A split is fine with me.
they could have had a serious split
The South would have eventually withered on the vine as industry supplanted agriculture as the future of the world. In fact, one of the many reasons the Civil War and surrounding debate happened when they did is that many Northerners were sick of having to support an already-fading Southern agronomy, and were sick of that same Southern agronomy having outsized representation in Congress.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 11, 2010 7:19 PM PDT up reply actions
This would have most likely been true in the longer run but...
..the northern states favored trade barriers (tariffs) to protect their interests and reduce industrial competition from abroad, and cause the southern states to have to support the northern ones by increasing costs to source from abroad. The South should have thanked the North for that kind of support, right?
by LowcountryJoe on Oct 11, 2010 8:19 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm not sure what this has to do with anything.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 11, 2010 9:08 PM PDT up reply actions
But that's too simplistic, isn't it?
Industry did not directly supplant agriculture.
If we’re trying to imagine the economic course of the southern states of the U.S. divorced from the northern, I think the nearest model is Argentina. Had the South followed that course, which I think is plausible, you’d find a booming export-led economy through the 19th century, quick industrialization in the early 20th century largely financed by foreign investment, followed by a collapse.
Which really isn’t that much different from what actually happened, the main difference being that the “foreign” investors were Yankees rather than British and French. The plantation economy of the pre-war South was very market-oriented, geared heavily toward export. That is, it focused on cash crops for export rather than diversified crops for local and nearby consumption. In the short term the War disrupted that pattern, as in the immediate post-war period, new landowners (both black and white) were more interested in growing for a local economy and for their own subsistence, but then northern industrialists bought them up and reasserted the economic status quo ante bellum.
If I were to view the Civil War in purely economic terms (which I really don’t) I would liken it to a corporate takeover. The plantation elite was complacent and economically inefficient. The northerners ousted them and took their place in order to exploit the region more efficiently with better organization and infrastructural investment, but without fundamentally changing the export-oriented economy.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
It later occurs to me that I'm nudging this discussion
back to the original topic of “should we really hate the Yankees?”
Heh. Sort of.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
They certainly weren't inefficient
Just unjust. Free labor leads to quite efficient businesses.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Nothing to do with slavery.
I’m talking about railroads, banks, etc. Think Clay and Calhoun’s “American System”.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
I'm really stupid for sticking my neck out here like this but I believe you have erred.
Slave labor was not free labor; there were costs associated with keeping human beings alive, keeping them from escaping, and acquiring them in the first place. In fact, there were some free men and women who contracted their labor to do the kind of work that slaves did. The plantations where this arrangement existed were, in some case, more profitable because the free men and women were more productive — productive because they were not being force to produce nor costly measures needed to prevent escaping.
Also, there were some plantations where something between these two extremes [between freedom and slavery-with-brutal-treatment] existed. Though that didn’t make any form of slavery morally right: I simply write this because this is seldom taught in schools.
Now, to pull my neck back in here a little, I, in no way, condone [past, present, and future tenses] any form of slavery. I am just trying to interject some of the things that I’ve learned on the subject even though what I have learned might not be accurate.
by LowcountryJoe on Oct 14, 2010 3:38 AM PDT up reply actions
It's true that owning slaves had costs
But I’d be interested to know where you get that paid labor was cheaper.
Especially since slaves were, I believe, much more likely to be born in the US than bought after 1819 so if you owned a bunch of slaves you didn’t really need to buy more. I find it incredible (as in, I don’t credit it) that meaningful sums were spend on food and housing for slaves even if they weren’t being treated brutally. It simply has to be cheaper to feed/house a worker than to pay them. If it wasn’t, why fight a war to keep ’em?
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
I never wrote that voluntary workers were cheaper
But I’d be interested to know where you get that paid labor was cheaper.
But I did write that using voluntary laborers, in some cases, was more profitable.
by LowcountryJoe on Oct 14, 2010 10:37 AM PDT up reply actions
More profitable does not equal cheaper.
He’s saying that a “voluntary” worker (I take issue with that characterization, which is part of why my post below suggests that we avoid this and other similar lines of discussion) would work more effectively and efficiently than a slave (and this isn’t even necessarily true), thereby creating a bigger profit, even on top of the money you paid the worker, whereas a slave might work less hard, and not create the same level of profit.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 14, 2010 4:17 PM PDT up reply actions
This is, in fact,
precisely the argument that the more pragmatic abolitionists (as opposed to the really aggressive Bible-thumping types) advanced against slavery— that free labor was so much more efficient than slavery that both master and servant would be better off with a free-labor system.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Paid labor was only cheaper up until the point
at which laborers stopped dying at such ridiculous rates that the expense of bringing them to America was worth paying in order to secure them for life instead of a seven-year indenture.
In early Virginia, especially, the death rate was so astounding that it made no sense to pay to transport a slave over to America, when only a small percentage of indentured servants ever outlived their indenture anyway.
It should be further added that indentured servants absolutely did require both force and occasional manhunts to recapture them in order for plantation owners to fully exploit them. I suppose there was more of a deterrent to escapes because the servant’s indenture would be punitively lengthened if he was caught, but plenty of them still tried it.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
(The "pay" consisted of funding the [admittedly substantial] travel costs in getting the servant to the Americas.]
Wage labor was not really a well-established mode of social interaction in the 1600s.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Globally, I think one can definitely say it did supplant agriculture.
Agriculture today exists on an industrial model. Even the small family farmer is a fool if he hasn’t established a private company with which to conduct business. I don’t think I know a single farmer who hasn’t, and I know a whole lot of farmers, in Kansas, California, Nebraska, South Dakota, and Pennsylvania. Even then, small farms are irrelevant. They can become more of a market force by banding together into cooperatives (because even farmers, famously stubborn and individual, have rejected rugged individualism as simplistic and unrealistic), but even then the individual farmer doesn’t matter the way the industrial farm does. Economies of scale work (predictably) so far in favor of the industrialized farm that it’s ridiculous.
Anyway, the point is, industrialization was already supplanting agrarianism as the model for civilization and economy, and would have continued to do so. If the North would have just cut the South loose after the Revolution, we might have missed their product for awhile, but come the early 1900s (at the very latest), they would have been absolutely anarchic and defunct. Would we have taken them back? I could see arguments going either way as to whether we would have and as to whether it would have been a good idea.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 14, 2010 9:20 AM PDT up reply actions
The South was MUCH richer than the north in 1800
The north probably would have been overrun by whichever European power tried first.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
An interesting conspiracy theory could be developed...
…that Great Britian’s abolshionist movement in the early to mid portion of the 1800s was designed to weaken the United States and divide it for A) possible take over [they were still pissed off about losing the colonies] or B) take advantage of increased exporting of industrial-made goods since the Northern United States’ focus was more on warfare. Yeah, sure, there were moral reason [which are solid, by the way], but the cause of ending slave trading was sure adopted very quickly in England.
by LowcountryJoe on Oct 14, 2010 10:48 AM PDT up reply actions
Slavery was uniquely ugly in the United States
precisely because of our humanist democratic ideals. A society like, say, Brazil was a complete hierarchy of social classes. Every class had rights and powers superior to those further down. If you were a slave, then you had the bad luck to be born in the bottom-most class, but you were still a human being and you still had a soul.
In the United States, we aspired to belief that “all men are created equal”, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, and so forth. In order to reconcile this ideal with the practice of slavery it became necessary to pretend that slaves were not human beings. While free men in Brazil could count their blessings and say “there but for the grace of God go I”, free men in the United States had to rationalize slavery by imagining that slaves were racially inferior beings.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
This is simply not true
Unless you mean it was uniquely ugly amongst the practitioners of the 1840s
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
I sort of do mean that.
I guess what I’m really getting at is that when we Americans think of “slavery” we include in it an element of dehumanization which is peculiar to our own brand of slavery and absent in most others, and thus it causes us to misperceive slavery especially in the context of classical Greece, Rome, etc, but also more recent societies in China, Byzantine/Ottoman, Russia, etc.
(This is not to say slavery was less cruel elsewhere — for the most part, everything was more cruel the further back you go into the past — but that it was not dehumanizing in the same way.)
As usual, I’m making a historical point, not a political one, but there are modern implications, too. The United States and Brazil had a similar history of slavery. To what do you attribute the fact that Brazil came out of it as a significantly less racist society than America did? I attribute this to the fact that Brazil was essentially not a free society.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
I would bet quite heavily that any sex slave whether in modern day asia or ancient rome
Is more dehumanized than the vast majority of american slaves.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
That isn't necessarily true.
Cultural mores have a lot to do with that kind of thing. That’s why they don’t get as freaked out about underage sex in Europe as we do here. Like, they think it’s bad, but they think it’s bad like hitting somebody is bad. Just different cultural mores.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 14, 2010 9:27 AM PDT up reply actions
Which cultural mores
Think this is ok?
(I didn’t say sex workers – i.e. prostitutes – I said sex slaves)
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Thailand's.
I’m not saying I agree with it. I’m not saying I would ever allow it to happen were I in charge.
But I am saying that different people experience things very differently depending on their cultural environment. For example: the untouchables in Hindu society don’t, as a rule, question their role/caste (although this is changing, like all such things, in the postmodern world) because as they understand it, that’s just how things work, and if the right things, they’ll move on up later. Another example: it is documented in some places, although I’d like to see more study done, that people raised in more sexually permissive cultures are actually somewhat less affected by sexual aggression. It’s not conclusive, and it’s still not OK at all by me, but it’s an interesting study in what cultural mores actually mean.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 14, 2010 4:21 PM PDT up reply actions
May I say...
As usual, I’m making a historical point, not a political one…
…that I think everyone who has contributed on this off-topic excursion has done a fairly decent job of keeping things historical.
by LowcountryJoe on Oct 14, 2010 3:55 AM PDT up reply actions
I love this entire discussion.
We’ve had to skirt the edges of the ban-on-politics many times, and it’s definitely a good thing that the ban exists, since it keeps us from plunging into the abyss, but it’s also a very good thing that the ban isn’t so rigid that it prevented from discussing this stuff at all.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
This
In order to reconcile this ideal with the practice of slavery it became necessary to pretend that slaves were not human beings.
I have a theory on this. Very young children, being naturally curious and generally not perverted by the indoctrination that occurs later, asked very difficult-to-answer questions from their parents. In order to avoid those questions, slave owners came to realize relatively quickly that some story must be spun: “These slaves aren’t really people like you and I are, son…” There would be no way to, as you wrote, reconcile this ideal [of inalienable rights] with the practice of slavery and be able to sit in school and learn about the Declaration or sit in church and listen to The Good News without seeing glaring inconsistency with what their parents were doing.
by LowcountryJoe on Oct 14, 2010 3:52 AM PDT up reply actions
The view of brown people as subhuman, as I mention below, goes back further than that.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 14, 2010 9:25 AM PDT up reply actions
What shade of ugly is current slavery in North Korea?
The country’s biggest export to Russia is slave labor who in droves die while working on the trans-Siberian railroad. Is the current fact less ugly in light of the government they live under?
It's an idea that makes sense,
but racism goes back several more centuries than the formal institution of slavery in the newly minted United States. Africans were supposed to be inferior from almost the earliest days of their enslavement, and depending on how you read what he wrote, Columbus might have established the precedent for treating brown people as subhuman as early as 1492. I mean, there’s no doubt that he did some awful things to the natives he encountered, but there’s some debate as to whether he thought, as many other Europeans later would, that they were subhuman so it didn’t matter, or he actually thought they were people, and quite good people, but slaughtered and raped them anyway because he was actually Dracula.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 14, 2010 9:24 AM PDT up reply actions
There are other less documented times in history...
…where people from the Northern portion of Africa enslaved European people. And before this? Who knows. But the slavery of one people by another, throughout human history, has been the rule, not the exception. And it most certainly transcended ethnicities.
by LowcountryJoe on Oct 14, 2010 11:00 AM PDT up reply actions
OK, I'm going to put this as delicately as I can.
You have made three separate arguments which come very close to apologism for the worst, bar none, element of American history. I don’t think it’s a very wise idea for any of us to continue down that road. Someone’s going to misinterpret what you’re saying, or you’re going to get backed into a corner you never meant to be defending.
It doesn’t matter who else enslaved who else. Those are separate incidents. And it doesn’t matter that there were some “voluntary” workers or indentured servants. And it doesn’t matter that there are always multiple reasons behind a policy such as abolition of slavery. And it doesn’t matter that some slaves were treated better than others.
Slavery is a stain on American history, and something we were and are better than. Unless we’re going to write a historical treatise, hundreds of pages long, on slavery in the colonies and early United States, these kinds of details do not push the conversation in directions that are good ideas to pursue.
To redirect the conversation slightly: yes, there has always been enslavement. But the firm, supposedly scientific belief that the enslaved population was subhuman is unique to white Western enslavement of black Africans. We find no other evidence of this, not even in ancient times. There are a lot of diverse elements in European/American culture that explain why white Westerners had this attitude, and I won’t bother to go into all of them here, because there are a lot of books that do a better, more exhaustive job than I would.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 14, 2010 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Your word of caution is well-taken,
and I’m sure that you’re right.
Still, it makes me wistful and sad that there are interesting topics of discussion that we cannot safely pursue without suffering the consequences you delicately allude to.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
I read the title of the fanpost.
The answer is yes. Next?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I do.
Much in the same way I hate Scarlett Johanssen’s boyfriend or husband, assuming she has one.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Damn Ryan Reynolds.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
Really?
You really posted this BS? by the way Barry Zito forever, what is Barry up to these days? Did he get his tickets for the Giants NLDS series?
by HRH on Oct 7, 2010 1:11 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Anyway
To answer your question, I’m not so sure we should really hate the Yankees, from a strictly rational point of view. They spend money because they have it, and because there are little restrictions on how they can use it. It would be less of a case of misplaced aggression to hate that which allows them to use their resources without restriction. Such entities could include:
1. Congress (for continuing to entertain the anti-trust exemption)
2. The players (for being greedy and preventing a cap)
3. The owners (for making revenue sharing a joke)
4. Bud Selig (because he’s a used car salesman)
Hating the Yankees is really just killing the messenger, though.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
I think it is just hating the messenger
I didn’t say I wanted to kill any Yankees. My wife did laugh histerically though when Posada took a couple foul balls off his mask, even after the announcers started to talk about concussions.
by barryzitoforever on Oct 13, 2010 9:35 AM PDT up reply actions
I would make that my sig.
I’m nervous that it gets taken the wrong way and turns into an argument around race.
Needs moar dingerz and moar Josh Donaldson.
I'm partial to the "rooting for the house in blackjack" analogy
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Really?!
Yes, we absolutely should hate the Yankees. All of the reasons you listed were indeed well thought out, and valid. Logical even. The problem is, love/hate, often has little to do with logic. A-Rod’s silly frosted tips and arrogant smirk——→ reason enough to hate the yankees. But I get what you’re saying. I don’t hate Swisher, or Granderson, or a lot of the Yankee’s players really. It’s not the player’s I hate, it’s the organization and their philosophy. It’s the constant stroking from ESPN. It’s the fact that the calls “mysteriously” go their way, especially in the postseason. It’s the no facial hair culture, it’s all of these things and then some. Maybe if they went back to using their original club name, The Highlanders, I might not hate them anymore. I dunno
All I wanted was a Pepsi
These are the reasons I hate the Red Sox
I think Boston fits this profile better than NY does. (Except for the facial hair thing.)
I needed a team so I wouldn’t turn into one of the eighty million pink hat-wearing Bud Light-drinking mulleted idiots at Fenway.
If they went back to calling themselves the Highlanders, I would stop hating them by about 47%.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 8, 2010 10:05 AM PDT up reply actions
Their original club name wasn't the Highlanders
it was the Orioles. May have been something else even before that.
Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples
Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.
If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.
They were the Orioles when they were created in 1901. They played in Baltimore because the NY Giants blocked them from NY.
The owner and manager of the Orioles, McGraw, and the AL president got in a feud. McGraw jumped to the NL as manager of the NY Giants, and still having ownership interest in the Orioles, helped Giants owner Brush get controlling interest and began raided it for players. The AL had to step in to stop it, and in 1903 they ended their feud when 15 of the 16 teams voted to allow the Orioles to move to NY. Depending on the source, they took the name Highlanders in 03 or 04.
by LoneStranger on Oct 8, 2010 12:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Hmm...
Didn’t know the history behind it, just knew they were the Baltimore Orioles in ’01 & ’02 then became the NY Highlanders in ’03 then eventually the Yankees.
Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples
Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.
If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.
The funny part is that the Giants are going to get screwed in a territory vote again soon.
by LoneStranger on Oct 8, 2010 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Good times :)
Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples
Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.
If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.
I hate comparisons tying wins to payroll in the short-term
Most Yankee fans actually state that you can build a winner without payroll- see Tampa Bay. However if they weren’t so fucking stupid and would see who wins in the long-term than they would understand that it’s not sustainable to win with a limited payroll. They also say “you should be mad at the A’s ownership for not spending more on payroll” as if they could even exist if they tried to spend dollar for dollar with the Yankees.
Spending time with my nephew and the AN Crew on July 10th...PRICELESS!
by ohtobe21likehuston on Oct 7, 2010 6:31 PM PDT reply actions
the next CBA may end up with teams having to report revenue from team-owned broadcasting
In which case, the Yankees will be ponying up a lot more and we’ll REALLY see the disparity based on team income.
!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam
by cuppingmaster on Oct 8, 2010 8:40 AM PDT up reply actions
Yes, and here's more reason why.....
An article I did for Yahoo on this very subject
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/5736896/give_the_yankees_a_fourth_out.html?cat=14
I think this would have been had you written it completely seriously.
if you dont use name calling or exclamation points = a way funnier read.
yes
really simple. hating the yankee’s is a good thing
"I saw a curveball, that’s about it," Rangers’ manager Ron Washington said. "You can’t take anything away from the kid; he went seven innings, but it wasn’t any shutout stuff." - Ron Washington on Gio's performance and the 7 k's.
I balk at the notion that our country was built on the notion that economic might makes right
And to whatever extent someone would like to argue otherwise, I’d suggest that reasonable persons dismissed social Darwinism as a legitimate ethos long ago.
"I've made a huge little mistake." - G.O.B.
Don't hate
not at all really. Steinbrenner had the foresight to start the YES network, maximize advertising dollars, and turn around and spend that on his team because he expects(ed) them to win the World Series every single year. There is nothing whatsoever wrong with that. Like a previous poster said, if you want to put a stop to it, put a cap on team salary and go from there. Otherwise, some teams will continue to ‘buy’ championships. Oh, and I think that argument is total bullshit as well….I can only speak about the Pohlad’s who own the Twins as I live in MN and have seen the numbers, but when he passed away he was worth $1.3B. He could have bought a title any time he wanted to, but he, like all owners, runs the team as a business. On a side note, anyone know how much Wolff and other principal owners of the A’s are worth? I’m just curious, and I have a sneaking suspicion that they could buy a title as well if they wanted to.
The worst person to run from is yourself.
Baseball the game...
would be alot less popular nowadays without the Yankees headlining the league. Fact of the matter is that NY is one of the few towns where baseball is still the king sport…
This thread has fallen off the sidebar.
Should we recommend it now? I’m not sure if that will put it on the top or the bottom of the recommended list.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
No idea
I kind of like it off the sidebar
Makes it feel private.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
(also, you can expand your side bar)
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Ooh, I didn't know that.
Is that in my user preferences somewhere?
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
Yeah, maybe you're right.
Hopefully BZF won’t come back and decide to delete it.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
I haven't ever deleted anything
And although I can’t really follow all the politics of this post, I’m not about to start deleting posts. It sort of seems like a complement to see over 300 comments, even if they aren’t really about the A’s.
by barryzitoforever on Oct 16, 2010 4:45 PM PDT up reply actions
It was a reference to DFA deleting a post, I think.
Apparently he no longer hates the playoffs.
"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 18, 2010 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions

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