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Around SBN: On Hazards And Hulks And Tigers, Oh My!

A's part ways with medical staff - and Braden sues them!

{Note from Nico: YANKEES LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's "lose," not "loose," by the way.}

I had originally posted the link to the article about the A's ending their relationship with team medical provider Webster Orthopedic Group as a fan shot. However, at cuppingmaster's suggestion I am turning it into a fanpost. I think it's potentially more significant than the firing of Sayles as head trainer (or even the "kicking upstairs" of former head trainer Larry Davis).

Star-divide

Yesterday the A's "parted ways" with their long time medical provider Webster Orthopedic Group. As others have pointed out, it is never the trainer who diagnoses player injuries but rather the medical staff. in recent years some players (Rich Harden and Bobby Crosby come to mind) have criticized misdiagnoses of their injuries, which lead to missing extra playing time.

The article linked above also mentions that Dallas Braden filed a lawsuit against the medical group and a specific doctor in that group. Thanks to the blog White Elephant Parade I have learned a bit more about the lawsuit. Most significant is that Braden alleges that the doctor told him that he would be removing material from a cyst (caused by an allergic reaction to a guard Braden wore), presumably for material for a biopsy. Instead the doctor cut out the cyst without anesthesia (OMG). Apparently the doctor also severed a nerve in Braden's foot. This action, according to the lawsuit, has resulted in permanent disability. Braden claims that the apparently permanent loss of feeling has negatively affected his pitching motion, which could result in more injuries and a shortening of his career.

While I'm glad that the A's finally ended their relationship with this group, it's appalling that it took so long - and perhaps a serious and career-threatening bit of malpractice - to get them to do so.

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Oh wow

No anesthesia???? Ouch….

There's no crying in baseball!

by gigglingone on Oct 22, 2010 3:03 PM PDT reply actions  

Well, he did sever the nerve.

I mean, that’s kind of like anesthesia, right?

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Oct 23, 2010 12:43 AM PDT up reply actions  

but not scalpels?

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Oct 23, 2010 1:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

kinda....but you never come out of it!

CT ..."he’s not just an asshat with a mic" - cuppingmaster

by Berry Jo on Oct 23, 2010 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

heh

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes

by Future Ed on Oct 23, 2010 11:25 AM PDT up reply actions  

Vodka is an anaesthetic

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Oct 23, 2010 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

As is borscht.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 23, 2010 4:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm usually not one for lawsuits

But Braden has every right to sue the pants off these guys.
That’s completely unacceptable…

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Oct 22, 2010 3:11 PM PDT reply actions  

Depends on the lawsuit (I hope nobody brings up the McDonald's coffee thing; that woman deserved ten times more than she got)

Here it seems clear that the doctor did more than make an honest mistake.

www.zekeishungry.com

by thejd44 on Oct 22, 2010 8:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ten times more coffee?

I guess the portions are pretty skimpy.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 22, 2010 9:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah seriously.

Who can get by on just 16 ounces these days?

Take your silver mod tubescreamer, your dr. z, your nocaster, put them in a pile and burn them. if god gave you a thousand years, you still couldn't touch this. you can't f***ing keep time to this.

by Elvez on Oct 22, 2010 9:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Are we still talking about pot?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 22, 2010 9:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

I thought that's what this whole blog was about.

Take your silver mod tubescreamer, your dr. z, your nocaster, put them in a pile and burn them. if god gave you a thousand years, you still couldn't touch this. you can't f***ing keep time to this.

by Elvez on Oct 22, 2010 9:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

No, just Mondays.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 22, 2010 9:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

Oh. Well then I'll see you all after the weekend.

Take your silver mod tubescreamer, your dr. z, your nocaster, put them in a pile and burn them. if god gave you a thousand years, you still couldn't touch this. you can't f***ing keep time to this.

by Elvez on Oct 22, 2010 9:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

10x more than 2 million dollars because she couldn't work a coffee cup lid.

I’ve gotta figure out a scam like that.

I needed a team so I wouldn’t turn into one of the eighty million pink hat-wearing Bud Light-drinking mulleted idiots at Fenway.

by Vacafan on Oct 23, 2010 7:01 AM PDT up reply actions  

Dude, the coffee was like 190 degrees.

Yeah, she probably squeezed the cup a little too hard, but who TF expects 3rd degree burns from fast food coffee?

Take your silver mod tubescreamer, your dr. z, your nocaster, put them in a pile and burn them. if god gave you a thousand years, you still couldn't touch this. you can't f***ing keep time to this.

by Elvez on Oct 23, 2010 7:58 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

That's at the upper range of what's normal for serving hot tea or coffee

Apparently normal is about 160-185 degrees F. If you get a fresh cup of coffee are you going to try to drink it right away? I wouldn’t. I know it’s served hot, so I expect I’m going to need to let it cool off a little bit first.

http://www.burnsjournal.com/article/S0305-4179%2807%2900255-0/abstract

Last of the Ninth - Photography

by Flashfire on Oct 23, 2010 8:20 AM PDT up reply actions  

they were purposely over heating the coffee, putting it above safe temperatures

with the express purpose of burning their customers so they wouldn’t taste the coffee. that is wrong and they rightly lost.

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes

by Future Ed on Oct 23, 2010 8:25 AM PDT up reply actions  

That's the first I ever heard about that

Not saying it’s false, because I never saw the full details of the case. But that would definitely call for them losing the case.

Last of the Ninth - Photography

by Flashfire on Oct 23, 2010 8:37 AM PDT up reply actions  

it may be a little different than my memory

wiki FWIW

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes

by Future Ed on Oct 23, 2010 8:41 AM PDT up reply actions  

Based on what that indicates they were serving to-go coffee at the upper levels from the link I found

And yes, that is accepted as being a temperature hot enough to burn quickly.

I don’t know what’s really acceptable. The site I went to indicates +/- 140° F as a generally comfortable temperature to drink hot liquids at, but if it’s true some people wait until they get where they’re going to drink the coffee if you serve it at a cooler temperature chances are it won’t be hot enough to then drink. On the other hand, if people plan to drink it along the way that’s another problem. They’d have to wait, risk burning their lips and tongue, or the place would have to lower their serving temperature accordingly.

It just doesn’t sound like an open and shut case based on what I’ve read.

Last of the Ninth - Photography

by Flashfire on Oct 23, 2010 9:05 AM PDT up reply actions  

I remember reading

thet mcdonalds research showed that it was better to hurt the consumer than make better coffee, but it doesn’t show up in the wiki article.

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes

by Future Ed on Oct 23, 2010 9:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

It's alluded to in the Wiki article.
Documents obtained from McDonald’s showed that from 1982 to 1992 the company had received more than 700 reports of people burned by McDonald’s coffee to varying degrees of severity, and had settled claims arising from scalding injuries for more than $500,000. McDonald’s quality control manager, Christopher Appleton, testified that this number of injuries was insufficient to cause the company to evaluate its practices.

McDonalds had a policy to serve coffee that’s too hot at first because they felt commuters wanted it that way (so that it would still be hot when they arrive at work). They knew the policy led to someone getting burned at a rate of roughly one a week (which is actually a tiny probability, when measured against the volume of coffee McDonalds serves), but after weighing the costs and benefits they determined it was still financially advantageous for them to accept that and settle out all the claims. It was this policy that the Liebeck jury objected to, prompting them to award the huge punitive damages (which were reduced by the judge).

There are several good links in the footnotes of the Wikipedia article, including opinion pieces for both sides. For the basic facts of the case, I recommend this one, in footnote 15.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Oct 23, 2010 7:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

She didn't get $2 million.

The final judgment was $160K compensatory and $480K punitive. (After the judgment, the parties settled rather than going to appeal. The terms of the settlement were not made public, but presumably they weren’t too far from the judgment.)

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Oct 23, 2010 7:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

Holy moly

That’s awful. Poor Dallas.

It's the fans that make the game fun. -- Rickey Henderson, July 26, 2009.

by Englishmajor on Oct 22, 2010 3:31 PM PDT reply actions  

Glad you took my suggestion

I kind of thought Braden was being a redass when he said stuff about the orthos. But, clearly there was stuff going down we didn’t know about.

Nice research, OaklandSi.

!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam

by cuppingmaster on Oct 22, 2010 4:12 PM PDT via mobile reply actions  

Thanks

You inspired me to look into this story a bit more.

by OaklandSi on Oct 22, 2010 4:25 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

I have to agree with you.

The info we now have makes you wonder why the Athletics didnt make this change months ago….

Maybe we wont be setting single season DL use records anymore, which is good for everyone.

by Twan54321 on Oct 22, 2010 5:33 PM PDT reply actions  

Well A's management has shown atrocious judgement in these regards for quite some time

This is no indication that things will changes.

"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagine such events unfolding!" Bill King

by Buck Turgidson on Oct 22, 2010 5:58 PM PDT reply actions  

change.

gerp

"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagine such events unfolding!" Bill King

by Buck Turgidson on Oct 22, 2010 7:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

No way, they gotta hire this guy

Nobody expects some kind of obscure Monty Python allusion.

by EddieVegas_NRAF on Oct 22, 2010 9:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

A bloody good one, it appears.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 22, 2010 9:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well if it isn't my old friend Mr McCraig

With a leg for an arm and an arm for a leg!

Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples

Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.

If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.

by DMOAS on Oct 22, 2010 9:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

If this is true...

…then the team’s steadfast insistence that everything was fine is even more glaring and inexcusable.

What does a mama bear on the pill have in common with the World Series? No cubs. ~Harry Caray

by UncleLeo on Oct 22, 2010 6:23 PM PDT reply actions  

like I said in the other thread

the pleadings ask for an undetermined amount of money. I am skeptical that is provable.

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes

by Future Ed on Oct 22, 2010 6:45 PM PDT reply actions  

Wait, isn't the "undetermined amount" a legal requirement of med-mal cases?

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 22, 2010 6:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

I am guessing its a placeholder, yeah

I can’t imagine what the experts will cost in this case. probably about as much as a settlement.

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes

by Future Ed on Oct 22, 2010 6:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

my point was more

the work has not been done. I think it puts braden in a tough spot for future contract negotiations. he either is setting what he thinks is his worth, or litigating it before it comes up. even then, there are a lot of proximate causation issues.

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes

by Future Ed on Oct 22, 2010 7:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

not to say I am a legal expert on this

I certainly am not, but the minimal stuff I know, it looks funny to me.

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes

by Future Ed on Oct 22, 2010 7:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

Actually it's all personal injury/wrongful death cases

California Code of Civil Procedure 425.10 (b):

Notwithstanding subdivision (a), where an action is brought to recover actual or punitive damages for personal injury or wrongful death, the amount demanded shall not be stated, but the complaint shall comply with Section 422.30 and, in a limited civil case, with subdivision (b) of Section 70613 of the Government Code.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 23, 2010 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

huh

I wonder why.

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes

by Future Ed on Oct 23, 2010 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions  

It's to keep the damages statement from becoming part of the public record

as soon as the plaintiff files the lawsuit.

As I understand it, this is to stop the plaintiff’s lawyer from coming out and holding a press conference to say “We just filed a $300 zillion lawsuit!” when, in reality, he’s hoping for 1/100th as much as the demand in the complaint.

The defendant can serve a request for a statement of damages on the plaintiff at any time, but it’s not filed with the court.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 23, 2010 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

civil stuff is weird

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes

by Future Ed on Oct 23, 2010 11:41 AM PDT up reply actions  

The court couldn't care less what complaints say

Especially the first one.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Oct 24, 2010 12:57 AM PDT up reply actions  

you have multiple complaints?

WTF is the point?

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes

by Future Ed on Oct 24, 2010 12:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

You amend your complaint later

The first one is basically just notice of a dispute.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Oct 24, 2010 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

it seems like a waste of time

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes

by Future Ed on Oct 24, 2010 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well, it's basically getting judicial extensions to the statute of limitations

You file one year after the accident, then amend the complaint to name the actual defendant like 9 months later, once your lawyer gets around to making some phone calls to actually figure out who it is!

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 24, 2010 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

Good

God, they suck. Words do not adequately describe how poor the A’s medical staff has been.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 22, 2010 6:45 PM PDT reply actions  

I knew Braden had lost feeling in his foot

And I heard about how this year he decided he could just play through it. I never heard that it was from a procedure. Bummer. Interestingly my dad had a cyst in his foot removed and complained that it seemed worse after removal and my wife has a cyst and has thought about getting it removed but read online that people don’t like the results. It sounds like As a whole people don’t like the results of having cysts removed from their feet. I had ankle surgery and femur surgery and both left me areas of numbness I did not expect. I guess we should all expect that and know that if we are on the fence about a surgery here is wither reason to not do it. It bums me out to think pro athletes whose career is their bodies don’t get better treatment than anyone else. Well at least the A’s don’t appear to get great treatment.

by barryzitoforever on Oct 22, 2010 6:58 PM PDT via mobile reply actions  

According to the suit filed Braden did not go in for surgery

He claims the doctor told him he would simply be extracting material for a biopsy. Then he cut out the cyst – without at least local anesthesia, mind you.

by OaklandSi on Oct 22, 2010 7:26 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

While that seems painful as hell

The lack of anesthesia isn’t really the problem here (that just shows the doctor was not totally with it or something). The real problem is that the doctor, somehow, caused nerve damage. Seems that would’ve happened even if there had been anesthesia.

www.zekeishungry.com

by thejd44 on Oct 22, 2010 8:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

according to Braden he was not advised that the doctor would perform surgery

so he didn’t give informed consent – or even consent.

when a doctor is going to perform even minor surgery the patient is required to sign a document acknowledging the potential risks. From what Braden alleges this did not happen

by OaklandSi on Oct 22, 2010 8:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

I've signed those plenty of times

Might depend on the type of procedure.
Haven’t done one for the dentist for specific procedures.
Have done it for kids getting surgery.
There may be some threshold of risk you need to get to? General vs local?

by MobiusKlein on Oct 22, 2010 10:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

Might be different in Europe

But I had to sign on the local ones, too

"Good thing you can't hit, otherwise everybody would hate you"
– H.J.S., my ex coach (while drunkenly talking to me during a team visit to a strip joint)

by elcroata on Oct 23, 2010 1:57 AM PDT up reply actions  

I signed one when I had an abscess in my face lanced

And that was only local anaesthetic. (And not much of it, either, let me tell you. That thing hurt like hell.)

I agreed to waive the risk of, among other things, death as a result of getting a small hole poked in my skin.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 23, 2010 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions  

It's crazy having waivers like that

death from abscess procedure.

Next time you get a waiver like that, be sure to ask how often it has happened.
Are we talking 1/1000 odds, 1/100,000 odds? It’s worth it to know – otherwise, you’re guessing.

As we all remember (sniff) we lost dear Bill King to complications from a hip replacement.

by MobiusKlein on Oct 23, 2010 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think it sucks that you basically have to sign something saying "I know there's a chance that I might die...

…even if it’s a very tiny risk and I agree not to blah blah blah" just to have something basic done.

Last of the Ninth - Photography

by Flashfire on Oct 23, 2010 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

you even have to sign one for periodontal scaling

which includes possible risks of nerve damage, believe it or not

by OaklandSi on Oct 23, 2010 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

Naturally

Which puts people who need a procedure done in a bind.

Last of the Ninth - Photography

by Flashfire on Oct 23, 2010 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

I know

when I expressed to the periodontist’s “procedure person” about my hesitancy about doing a “minor” procedure that could paralyze part of my mouth, she replied, " oh there’s virtually no chance of any complications. We just need to do this for insurance."

by OaklandSi on Oct 23, 2010 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

not exactly

and PT (hopefully) knows more about this. you can’t waive your right to sue, just like you can’t waive your right to vote. the waivers are a piece of evidence, though, and a fairly good one. But, yeah, doctors are really afraid that people are going to sue them. And for very good reason. It does happen.

"I feel like my opinions and judgments are just too corrupted by the numbers." - thejd44

by eastcoasta'sfan on Oct 23, 2010 3:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

Assumption of risk is a pretty darn solid waiver when it comes to medical treatment

I can’t see any way that one wouldn’t be upheld. Now, the doctor can’t roll in drunk or operate on the wrong leg or something, but I wouldn’t have had anything to go on if I had suffered some surgical complication from the face thing.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 23, 2010 3:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

isn't there some exception for negligence?

like you can’t waive negligence?

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes

by Future Ed on Oct 23, 2010 3:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

But the reason you have to sign is because it's true.

There really is a chance you might die every time they do some sort of surgery, even if it’s “something basic”. As both medical technology and our demands on it increase, we are constantly increasing what all we think of as basic, and we as a public want to pretend that it’s 100% risk-free. It’s not.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Oct 23, 2010 8:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

We knew it was from the procedure before this past season

Look, here’s Lookout Landing’s Jeff Sullivan’s article on SBN from April 7th, 2010:

Through much of the 2009 season, A’s starting pitcher Dallas Braden dealt with an infection on his left foot and ankle caused by his toe guard. The infection only continued to worsen, and before long it advanced to the point at which it inflamed a nerve. Complicating matters even further, a biopsy of the area accidentally severed the nerve, and Braden was left with severely reduced feeling in his foot.

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Oct 23, 2010 10:09 AM PDT up reply actions  

the suit claims that the doctor told Braden he was going to extract material for a biopsy

but instead he removed the cyst – without informed consent. That is a pretty serious allegation.

It’s much less likely that the nerve would have been severed with a simple extraction of material for a biopsy.

by OaklandSi on Oct 23, 2010 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions  

that 2009 post did not include some of the information in the recent lawsuit

Braden is alleging that the minor surgery was performed witihout his informed consent. this is information that was not published in any article or blog before the suit.

by OaklandSi on Oct 23, 2010 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

I was unclear

case for damages

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes

by Future Ed on Oct 23, 2010 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions  

Honestly, in contrast to most lawsuits that are filed,

many of them frivolous or big reaches, this one has always seemed to be like a slam dunk in the making. How the hell do you do permanent nerve damage to two toes during a routine biopsy? That is negligent, and clearly causes irreparable harm. I would not want to be in the defendant’s shoes (though at least he can still feel his toes).

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 22, 2010 8:21 PM PDT reply actions  

hyperbole aside

there is a lot more to getting money froma lawsuit than just showing harm. I don’t know what the likelihood of nerve damage is. Negligence is more complicated than that.

and yes the McDonalds coffee thing was a legitimate suit that gets made fun of too much.

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes

by Future Ed on Oct 23, 2010 12:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

You have to show liability (it was their fault) and damages (you were harmed)

Seems like liability is pretty clear here, so it’s just a question of how much damage can be established/proven.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 23, 2010 8:41 AM PDT up reply actions  

No, but only because

of the doctor who accidentally severed all the nerves in my heart.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 23, 2010 10:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

Semi-serious question, but do you think the doctor's lawyers are going to use the perfect game against Braden?

“If the harm was so great, how were you able to do something virtually nobody has done?”

www.zekeishungry.com

by thejd44 on Oct 24, 2010 8:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

He has to be careful doing that though

A trial transcript where someone says “yeah, I’m actually not that good” is not something you want to be fighting in your salary arbitration negotiations.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 24, 2010 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

Oh, I know

But there’s no real way to explain a perfect game especially when you don’t dominate by striking half the team out.

Last of the Ninth - Photography

by Flashfire on Oct 24, 2010 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

"It wasn't a perfect game.

A perfect game is 27 batters faced, 27 outs, 10 toes."

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 24, 2010 9:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'm sure they will

but his lawyers can use it too. They can argue it demonstrates that he has the talent to be an elite pitcher, and thus his injury may be what’s preventing him from having the same record and earnings as Roy Halladay.

It's the fans that make the game fun. -- Rickey Henderson, July 26, 2009.

by Englishmajor on Oct 24, 2010 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions  

"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, clearly

with feeling in two more toes Dallas Braden would be the pitching equal of Roy Halladay. STOP LAUGHING!!!!!! Your honor, make them stop laughing!"

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 24, 2010 12:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

Bailiff!

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Oct 24, 2010 4:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

some more about the lawsuit

in an article by Jane Lee from MLB.com on the A’s website:

According to court documents, the suit not only maintains that Braden “experiences numbness and extreme and excessive pain while pitching,” but that such symptoms cause fatigue in the later innings of his starts. The complaint also contends that the “damage, instability and sensitivity of his left foot will cause biomechanical problems with his pitching delivery system, which will likely result in further injury and shortening of his pitching career.”

by OaklandSi on Oct 22, 2010 8:29 PM PDT reply actions  

That just sucks.

Unfortunately for Braden, that probably also takes away any chance of him every being given a long term contract.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Oct 22, 2010 8:41 PM PDT reply actions  

which may have something to do with his deciding to file the suit

perhaps the A’s knew the extent of the damage. Braden might already know that he’s unlikely to get a long term contract with anyone because of it.

by OaklandSi on Oct 22, 2010 8:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

It's also the right thing to do

Above and beyond any monetary damages, if this is a bad doctor (Seems that way), this suit against him is for the benefit of everybody.

www.zekeishungry.com

by thejd44 on Oct 22, 2010 8:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

right, I merely pointed this out because some may think Braden has jeopardized his chances of a long term contract

because of how he describes his physical problems stemming from the actions of the doctor. It would make sense, however, if it was already known.

by OaklandSi on Oct 22, 2010 9:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

i don't know much about medical stuff...

i assume cysts are usually cut out with anesthesia?

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones."
-BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Oct 22, 2010 9:03 PM PDT reply actions  

I think usually you

destroy two toes just to make sure. At least that’s what Dr. Nick did with that cyst on my left nostril.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 22, 2010 9:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

if this is also now the yankees lose thread, i'll just post this here...

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones."
-BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Oct 22, 2010 9:09 PM PDT reply actions  

I forgive you

for all your previous .gif’s.

This one is everything at once, says everything I need to say about the Yanks, said by the fans themselves…

by Chilango on Oct 22, 2010 9:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

Clarifying note: EVERY thread is always a "Yankees lose" thread.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 22, 2010 9:16 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Contestants #'s 1 & 2 for Worst Dad of the Year award

to the left and right of the frame.

“Look son, did you see how those guys did it? You remember this, ok?”
“Yeah. This is neat-o. I’ll be a douche some day, dad. I swear.”

Take your silver mod tubescreamer, your dr. z, your nocaster, put them in a pile and burn them. if god gave you a thousand years, you still couldn't touch this. you can't f***ing keep time to this.

by Elvez on Oct 22, 2010 9:39 PM PDT up reply actions   2 recs

You can just barely see the older gentleman behind him, trying hard to retain any dignity...

amongst all the surrounding fans that don’t seem to realize that dude did anything wrong.

Take your silver mod tubescreamer, your dr. z, your nocaster, put them in a pile and burn them. if god gave you a thousand years, you still couldn't touch this. you can't f***ing keep time to this.

by Elvez on Oct 22, 2010 9:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

looks to me as if

the older dude is clapping and whistling, not retaining any dignity IMO.

Officially awaiting the 2011 MLB season

by One won lost won on Oct 22, 2010 9:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

do you mean the guy with the glasses eating popcorn?

that looks 40?

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes

by Future Ed on Oct 23, 2010 1:45 AM PDT up reply actions  

no, the old guy in the brown cap behind the main douchebag

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones."
-BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Oct 23, 2010 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

heh

“main douchebag”

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes

by Future Ed on Oct 23, 2010 12:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ugh

I generally picture Yankees fans as this. So obnoxious.

"We're not the doormat anymore" —Dallas Braden, 4/22/10

by streetfan on Oct 22, 2010 11:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

They really do a great job of embodying the negative stereotype, don't they?

Having logged lots of hours wearing an A’s cap in old-new Yankee Stadium in the late ’80s and ’90s I can tell you that all too many Yanks fans are just like this.

There is no "i" in Teamocil. At least not where you'd think.

by GreenNGoldSooner on Oct 23, 2010 7:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'm so glad that the Yanks lost!

I was in a NYC bar/restaurant last night and the crowd was wonderfully somber.

Now GO PHILLIES!

(The thought of having to choose sides in a Rangers-Giants series is too damn painful to contemplate.)

There is no "i" in Teamocil. At least not where you'd think.

by GreenNGoldSooner on Oct 23, 2010 7:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'd like to see a coach sue the players for sucking and ending his career.

Or a doctor sue a surgically repaired athlete for sucking after surgery ruining the docs reutatio.

by Brett Narloch on Oct 22, 2010 9:12 PM PDT reply actions  

I can't wait to look up "reutatio" and find out why they're so important to doctors.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 22, 2010 9:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hahaha

Typed too fast on mi iPad… Supposed to be reputation.

by Brett Narloch on Oct 22, 2010 9:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

Haha

Just imagined a pirate with an iPad, typing too fast.

These clothes are good enough to drink in, and so be these boots, too.

by Leap Year on Oct 23, 2010 8:23 AM PDT up reply actions  

I know, but it's funnier that way --

"Dammit, Dallas, you’ve ruined my reutatio!!!!"
"Um, sorry doc, I’ll get you a new one."
"I want a red one!"
"OK."

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 22, 2010 9:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

For the record, I just googled "reutatio"

and google said, “Do you mean ‘refutatio’?” To which I replied, “Oh most definitely.”

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 22, 2010 9:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

You got that wrong Nico

I googled it (rutatio) and it said, “Brett can’t spell for shit, Ask Nico for correct spelling”

by Trainman on Oct 23, 2010 9:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

Only on AN will you get this breaking news

I just walked past a screen in our house the other night with the old movie “Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy” displayed, and the two wise men were talking to the “second greatest computer ever..” and the one guy mentions some other supercomputer, whose name contained the word “Google”.

I was shocked to say the least!

Officially awaiting the 2011 MLB season

by One won lost won on Oct 22, 2010 9:55 PM PDT reply actions  

Ooops...Guide to the Universe

coffee molecules have departed, and I’m suffering inabilities left and right…

Officially awaiting the 2011 MLB season

by One won lost won on Oct 22, 2010 9:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

uhhhhhhh..................

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones."
-BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Oct 22, 2010 10:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

life the galaxy and everything

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes

by Future Ed on Oct 23, 2010 8:19 AM PDT up reply actions  

Googleplex Star Thinker

Google says their name does not derive from that, and I see no reason to doubt them. There are other pre-Google uses of the word, too. Like Barney Google.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Oct 23, 2010 12:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

I believe the story is that the name was to be "Googol"

but somewhere it got respelled, and those in charge said, “…whatever”.

Officially awaiting the 2011 MLB season

by One won lost won on Oct 23, 2010 5:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yes. That's the story in the book.

They meant to name themselves after the number but misspelled it. Then decided to keep the misspelling.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Oct 23, 2010 8:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

Two points

1: You guys are jumping to conclusions waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too fast. Complaints are arguments, not statements of fact.

2: There is nothing fishy at all about the amount being left undetermined. That’s how the game is played.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Oct 23, 2010 12:40 AM PDT reply actions  

Well, I'm not sure I believe the shortening of his career bit.

Despite the injury, he was an effective pitcher last year. But the complaint is bad enough that the A’s left a longtime medical provider.

!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam

by cuppingmaster on Oct 23, 2010 12:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

he means "complaint" as in legal pleading

not gripe

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes

by Future Ed on Oct 23, 2010 1:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

Both work

We don’t know if the team was planning on leaving them anyways or this is them sticking up for Braden.

!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam

by cuppingmaster on Oct 23, 2010 1:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

By shortening he probably means

That the effects of the permanent damage causes changes to his delivery that increases the risk of other injuries, which would shorten his career. Just pitching well this past season doesn’t mean there are no issues. I’m sure Braden expected to have a career for a good number of years.

by OaklandSi on Oct 23, 2010 6:45 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

so did Jason Windsor

I am interested in what that expectation is and how they got to that number. It seems to me that any number is more highly speculative than courts can grant.

As nvermoor suggests the lack of number in the pleadings may be SOP, but I would hipe his lawyer has some idea of where they are going and how they get there. My gut tells me its not going to be easy.

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes

by Future Ed on Oct 23, 2010 8:14 AM PDT up reply actions  

any number of possible years that one can claim were lost are always speculative

yet many such claims do win in court or result in an out of court settlement. It will be interesting to see how this plays out, since it may set some precedents (not speaking only of the A’s but of other teams’ players).

by OaklandSi on Oct 23, 2010 8:57 AM PDT up reply actions  

It will never matter

They’ll settle for something, so “proving” damages will never be an issue.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Oct 23, 2010 9:27 AM PDT up reply actions  

right

I just don’t think it will be as much as people here think

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes

by Future Ed on Oct 23, 2010 9:31 AM PDT up reply actions  

Important to note that undoubtedly

it will be an insurance company, not a doctor, doing the settling.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 23, 2010 9:44 AM PDT up reply actions  

the other

thread had 7 figure estimates.

“pants” were mentioned here.

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes

by Future Ed on Oct 23, 2010 10:17 AM PDT up reply actions  

+1 to #1

We’re always jumping to conclusions here. It does sound like something bad happened, but there’s so much we don’t know. We haven’t heard the doctor’s side at all, but AN is ready to deliver the verdict yesterday.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Oct 23, 2010 12:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'd love to hear the doctor's side,

but I’m comfortable saying that if you go in for a biopsy on a cyst, and leave with a nerve severed and no feeling in two toes, the doctor has been grossly negligent. That just doesn’t happen, should never happen. So personally, I’m not ready to deliver a “verdict,” but I’m ready to say, “Sure as heck sounds like gross negligence to me.”

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 23, 2010 9:10 AM PDT up reply actions  

gross negligence is over the top

it has a specific meaning (reckless disregard for safety of others) and is not likely the case here.

negligence, maybe, what is the standard of care for the doctor. it seems to the untrained observer that you shouldn’t sever nerves, but the doctor might be able to say that tis particular cyst was in a place where it the nerves were at risk.

the damages might be less than what people here think. Dallas braden has not lost any earnings yet because of the injury. I think he is arb eligible this year, we’ll see what he gets, but since his best year was after the injury, he has a difficult task showing future harm

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes

by Future Ed on Oct 23, 2010 9:19 AM PDT up reply actions  

True it was not "intentional,"

though I think you could argue that it was way negligent for a routine biopsy to result in a severed nerve. So if it’s not “gross negligence” it’s at least “way negligence!”

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 23, 2010 9:45 AM PDT up reply actions  

She had to tuffet out.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 23, 2010 10:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

I can't see a reference to Miss Muffett

without thinking of Dudley Moore’s rendition of Peter Pears singing the song as set by Benjamin Britten.

I suspect it’s only funny if you’re familiar with Britten and/or Pears, which I’d have to guess 99+% here are not, but if you are it’s absolutely hilarious.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Oct 24, 2010 1:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

His Col Bogey variations by Beethoven

is also totally awesome.

I love Dudley Moore. He’s best known as a comedic actor, but he was a brilliant musician, and even more brilliant at musical parody.

He died from the same disease my Dad did, progressive supranuclear palsy.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Oct 25, 2010 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

There's a new one on me

and I’m kind of a hypochondriac, so that’s saying something.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 27, 2010 12:23 AM PDT up reply actions  

When he was first diagnosed,

they thought it was Parkinson’s, which is common since they manifest similar symptoms. He had it for about a year before it was correctly identified as PSP.

Like Parkinson’s, it’s a disease of the nervous system that gradually erodes all motor control, starting from minor shakes and dizziness and ending up in near total paralysis. For my dad it was about seven years from diagnosis to death, almost exactly matching what the Wikipedia article calls typical. Same age, too.

Dad never got dementia at all, though. His mind was totally sharp till the end, though for the last year he could barely communicate.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Oct 27, 2010 12:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

normal procedure for minor surgery to remove a cyst

is to have the patient sign a consent form that acknowledges the potential risk of the surgery, including possible temporary or permanent nerve damage.

What Braden is alleging is that the doctor did not tell him that he was going to remove the cyst, but that he was going to extract material from the cyst for a biopsy.

by OaklandSi on Oct 23, 2010 10:17 AM PDT up reply actions  

well, do we know what the background rate of complications from orthopedic cyst biopsies is?

That’s gotta count for something.

p.s. – vk put the link to the actual suit on the Drumbeat here

!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam

by cuppingmaster on Oct 23, 2010 10:29 AM PDT up reply actions  

I also have that link above

it was first put on the White Elephant parade blog. If you click on it you’ll find the link to the original suit. I did not put that link only because it is simply a link to download the pdf.

by OaklandSi on Oct 23, 2010 10:34 AM PDT up reply actions  

cool, my bad

Didn’t click through

!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam

by cuppingmaster on Oct 23, 2010 10:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

I can't go into details on you question on the other thread

but generally:

Punitive damages are for malicious or grossly negligent, which isn’t the case here. So not likely.

pain and suffering, I don’t know how that works, but its kinda smoke an mirrors

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes

by Future Ed on Oct 23, 2010 9:28 AM PDT up reply actions  

There is no "how it works" when it comes to pain and suffering

It’s literally whatever the jury feels like awarding, although if it’s ridiculously high it’ll probably get cut down by either the trial court or court of appeals.

He’s got a good shot at a big P&S award in the infinitesimally unlikely event that this goes before a jury.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 23, 2010 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions  

so, settlement?

!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam

by cuppingmaster on Oct 23, 2010 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

I seem to recall

there is a dollar threshold that requires the doctor to report it to the AMA or something.

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes

by Future Ed on Oct 23, 2010 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions  

Oh, good call

That’ll affect things, for sure.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 23, 2010 3:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

(not a law person here)

Does that include punitive damages?

!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam

by cuppingmaster on Oct 23, 2010 3:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Gotta read the law :)

I’m pretty sure that does not include punitive damages, but thanks to tort “reform”, it is very difficult to get punitive damages against a health care provider in California. You essentially have to get the judge to sign off approving it well in advance of trial. (That’s California Code of Civil Procedure 425.13.)

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 23, 2010 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

Probably the only law I would study is intellectual property because of my science background

Thanks for the info. Yeah, I mean Braden has some significant damage here, but he threw 5 complete games this year. It’s going to be hard to have that fact AND say what the doctor did was SO bad he should be punished to a greater degree than he might otherwise.

!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam

by cuppingmaster on Oct 23, 2010 4:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

So you think every time there is a negative surgical result the doctor should be sued and lose?

We have no idea what really happened. Either it’s the way Braden says or it isn’t.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Oct 23, 2010 9:28 AM PDT up reply actions  

Of course I don't.

Luckily, nothing I’ve said would lead any person to reasonably conclude I thought anything like that.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 23, 2010 9:46 AM PDT up reply actions  

Luckily.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 24, 2010 1:00 AM PDT up reply actions  

No

You just said he had a procedure and something bad happened so it is obviously gross negligence. Totally unreasonable to say that you think bad outcomes mean negligence.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Oct 24, 2010 1:03 AM PDT up reply actions  

That's so far from what I said it's absurd

Something bad happened that shouldn’t happen, and never happens, under any semblance of competent medical care.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 24, 2010 8:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

Biopsy <> Surgery

So I don’t see where you’re coming up that.

Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples

Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.

If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.

by DMOAS on Oct 23, 2010 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions  

In fact, part of my point is that

these kinds of complications don’t happen from biopsies.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 23, 2010 10:40 AM PDT up reply actions  

But even Braden admits it wasn't a biopsy

It was a removal.

He says he didn’t consent, and that either is or isn’t true. Either way, the complications associated with biopsies are irrelevant.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Oct 24, 2010 1:01 AM PDT up reply actions  

It would be crazy for him to make that up

Since there either is or isn’t a signed document.

www.zekeishungry.com

by thejd44 on Oct 24, 2010 8:20 AM PDT up reply actions  

sure but we're not trying to be unbiased, that's not our job

we like the a’s and we like braden. we don’t give a f*** about this medical group now that they’re no longer involved with the a’s.
i’m sure we all hope they are partially responsible for the a’s injury problems so things will now improve, and i’m sure we all hope braden wins like a billion dollars in the lawsuit.

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones."
-BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Oct 23, 2010 12:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

What's the doctor going to say?

“He said I could do take some material from the cyst. I decided taking all of it was the way to go!”

But you’re right, we don’t have all the information. What we do have is pretty damning, but what’s there could be misconstrued or lacking.

by UrgentMirth on Oct 26, 2010 8:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

as far as I can see (and I read the document that Braden's lawyers fiiled)

the only way that it could be misconstrued (biopsy vs. cyst removal) is if it didn’t happen the way Braden alleges. if the doctor can produce a consent waiver form signed by Braden perhaps the wording might give him some room to argue (although his severing of the nerve is more than just a simple “risk of surgery”).

It’s important to remember that while taking material from the cyst with a needle for a biopsy is not considered surgery, removal of the cyst is. Braden claims the cyst was removed without his consent.

by OaklandSi on Oct 26, 2010 8:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well, yeah.
the only way that it could be misconstrued is if it didn’t happen the way Braden alleges

That’s pretty much how it is with any allegation. What remains to be determined is if that’s what really happened.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Oct 26, 2010 8:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

there is what happened

what Braden said, what the doctor says, and what braden can show, and what the doctor can show.

We will never know what really happened. Just like every other case that goes to court.

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes

by Future Ed on Oct 26, 2010 11:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

celebrate!

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones."
-BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Oct 23, 2010 12:22 PM PDT reply actions   4 recs

lol

"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."

by lenscrafters on Oct 23, 2010 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

"F*ck Pedro Gomez and f*ck the f*cking Ripken brothers!"

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Oct 23, 2010 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

...and say hello...

The meaning of life is not so much 'found,' as it is 'made.' --Opus

by The Dogfather on Oct 26, 2010 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

...to my little friend!

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Oct 27, 2010 6:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

I love you and your GIFS

A's Fan in Sweden

"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime

by travdog6 on Oct 23, 2010 7:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

robot umps

this is why we should have computers call balls and strikes


Brian Scott Gorman (born June 11, 1959 in Whitestone, Queens, New York City) is an umpire in Major League Baseball.

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones."
-BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Oct 23, 2010 1:04 PM PDT reply actions  

That's about as human of a human element as you can get!

"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."

by lenscrafters on Oct 23, 2010 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

And I don't think it is from the looks of where the pitch was caught relative to the plate

It was probably a couple inches off the outside corner but the graphic makes it look like it was all the way over in the other batter’s box.

Last of the Ninth - Photography

by Flashfire on Oct 23, 2010 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

Looks fine to me.

The TV angle is the one that’s messed up here, and making the chart seem incorrect. That pitch was well off the plate.

"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."

by lenscrafters on Oct 23, 2010 1:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

It's a much straighter angle than we usually get

It was a ball, but it doesn’t look THAT bad.

Last of the Ninth - Photography

by Flashfire on Oct 23, 2010 1:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Also, while the strike zone graphic and the pitch position is likely accurate

it looks like the plate/batters boxes on the graphic are not. For whatever reason, they draw the edges of the batters boxes about half the distance to the edges of the plate as they should be. That’s really misleading.

by danmerqury on Oct 23, 2010 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

its also not really to scale

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes

by Future Ed on Oct 23, 2010 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

What I wish they'd do is just show how many inches off the plate it was

In Pittsburgh they actually displayed the break and movement of a pitch on their matrix board, which was pretty neat. If a place can instantly put that up the tech should be there to tell us if the pitch was two inches off the black.

Last of the Ninth - Photography

by Flashfire on Oct 23, 2010 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

Doesn't matter where the pitch was caught. Matters where it crossed the plate.

And if umpires can’t tell the difference (and as someone who’s been an umpire, I have to say I’d be hard-pressed to figure out how you could see where the ball’s crossing the plate), they shouldn’t be allowed to screw it up all the time.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 24, 2010 1:03 AM PDT up reply actions  

click through to the zone plot

it apears to be 6 inches outside

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes

by Future Ed on Oct 24, 2010 1:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

Outside (corner) pitches to Lefties are generally where the most umps make bad calls.

Most of them set up behind the catcher’s right shoulder.
Makes for a hell of an inconsistent zone.

If anybody asks, I'm not here.
I'm never here.

by harensheir15 on Oct 23, 2010 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

In the stands while the robo umps take over.

Obviously, set up isn’t the problem. Wherever they do, there’ll some part of the zone they will misjudge.

Just saying setting up over the right shoulder makes for dismal calls around the outside corner.

If anybody asks, I'm not here.
I'm never here.

by harensheir15 on Oct 23, 2010 4:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

Definitely makes you appreciate

the whole “knock the bails off the stumps” deal in cricket, doesn’t it?

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Oct 23, 2010 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yankee Call

"The A's get some action but they do not score..." -Glen Kuiper

"Anyone who calls themselves the Angels Angels should have to start over and ride the short bus." -timmeh from McCovey Chronicles

by Cheezombie on Oct 23, 2010 4:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

You'd have to program the robots to favor the Yankees, though.

That’s where the human element has an advantage. Human umpires are much better at favoring the Yankees.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Oct 23, 2010 8:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

That's how they do it in the 209...

In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

by ZacharyCF on Oct 23, 2010 11:09 PM PDT reply actions  

the webster group's response to the lawsuit:

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones."
-BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Oct 23, 2010 11:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

Dallas Braden is dramatically underrated

for how dramatic he is.

I can’t decide whether or not he’s under or over achieving.

In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

by ZacharyCF on Oct 23, 2010 11:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

You missed the party!

Here.

A's Fan in Sweden

"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime

by travdog6 on Oct 24, 2010 5:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

A question regarding doctor's performing "unauthorized" actions during a procedure

The hangup here seems to be that Braden agreed to one thing and the doctor ended up doing another. It seems, in this case, that the doctor probably shouldn’t have done it. But is this always true?

Aren’t there times in the middle of a procedure or a surgery where a doctor discovers something different than expected – often the patient is unconscious – and has to do something that wasn’t planned? Don’t we leave it up to the best judgment of a doctor to say “Well, we planned to do this, but it’s clear now that this other thing is necessary”? So where is that line drawn?

www.zekeishungry.com

by thejd44 on Oct 24, 2010 8:24 AM PDT reply actions  

Probably in the form itself:

“I authorize that in the event…”

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 24, 2010 8:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

Extraction of material for a biopsy is not surgery

Removal of the cyst is. It requires informed consent. Once a surgery is underway it does sometimes happen that something additional must be done.

Had Braden been advised that the doctor might need to remove the cyst instead of simply getting material for a biopsy – and had been given the waiver form – then he might not have a case.

by OaklandSi on Oct 24, 2010 9:01 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

Or if a designated family member had been (or was) consulted.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 24, 2010 9:20 AM PDT up reply actions  

that's only if the patient is not competent to answer

for example, if the person is unconscious. That totally doesn’t apply in this case.

Braden claims the doctor said he was going to extract material from the cyst for a biopsy. Instead the doctor cut out the cyst. Braden claims he did not give his consent for what the doctor actually did, only for what he told him he was going to do. Then to further aggravate the situation the doctor severed a nerve which Braden has been told has caused permanent damage.

Can this doctor produce a waiver form signed by Braden that might cover him?

by OaklandSi on Oct 24, 2010 9:34 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yes, if he was never sedated it's not relevant in this case.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 24, 2010 12:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

Good thing Braden doesn't pitch in the NL, then

because then there wouldn’t be a designated family member.

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Oct 24, 2010 4:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yes, but we're not talking about that here

When I had my last three wisdom teeth removed last year I went through all that. I had conscious sedation and signed the stuff and understood that even though I would be awake to respond to them I wouldn’t be able to remember it and if they found something they needed to fix in the process of removing the teeth they’d do it, etc.

Braden wasn’t even given an anesthetic for this. He was awake, he was right there, and everything. What prevented the doctor from saying “Okay, I was just going to do this but now I need to do this instead. I need your consent” or something like that?

Last of the Ninth - Photography

by Flashfire on Oct 24, 2010 9:23 AM PDT up reply actions  

There are exceptions for exigent circumstances

like, the doctor sees something that will kill the patient instantly if he doesn’t deal with it.

But, often you have to close the guy up and reobtain consent.

One way to get around this is to have the patient give power of attorney to a friend or loved one, and then have the doctor call the friend to get consent if the patient is unconscious.

In this case, of course, Braden wasn’t unconscious…

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 24, 2010 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

So in cases like James Simmons earlier this year,

does the doctor go in for exploratory surgery with Simmons’ permission to do more if the doctor deems it necessary?

A's Fan in Sweden

"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime

by travdog6 on Oct 24, 2010 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't know

But I’d think exploratory surgery is just what it sounds like and depending on what they find, that’s when they’ll sit back down to decide how to proceed further next time.

Last of the Ninth - Photography

by Flashfire on Oct 24, 2010 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

I had a friend who underwent exploratory surgery

that turned into something much more extensive in mid-operation, while he was under anesthesia. He did sign an informed consent waiver before the surgery, plus his wife was informed during the surgery and she consented.

Extracting material from a cyst for a biopsy is NOT exploratory surgery. Removing a cyst IS surgery and requires informed consent.

by OaklandSi on Oct 24, 2010 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

Simmons was having arm problems, but they couldn't locate the source.

They went in with the intention of finding the problem, but went ahead and fixed it when they found it. What I’m wondering is whether it’s common for doctors to go in without a set procedure in mind, and perform some sort of surgery after seeing what they’re dealing with.

A's Fan in Sweden

"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime

by travdog6 on Oct 24, 2010 3:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

"went in" sounds like surgery - for which Simmons would have had to sign a consent form

it is not common for a doctor to say he’s going to perform a non-surgical procedure, only to actually perform minor surgery without that informed consent and waiver form.

by OaklandSi on Oct 24, 2010 4:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

I guess I'm not making myself clear.

There was an operation, but IIRC, the intent was just to find the problem, not to fix it. But upon seeing the problem, they decided to fix it. So yes, Simmons signed the form for the original operation, but since they didn’t know what was wrong, there’s no way he could have known about the follow up operation. I’m wondering if it’s common to go in without knowing what the procedure will be, and then conduct the surgery.

And no, this isn’t really related to the OP, but I’m curious.

A's Fan in Sweden

"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime

by travdog6 on Oct 24, 2010 4:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

from what I know in any surgery you have to sign a consent form

that – besides acknowledging the risks – acknowledges that the surgeon may have to do something different than planned depending on whether he/she finds something that must be dealt with immediately. They also inform the next of kin if the patient is unconscious. This is of course especially the case when the patient will be under general anesthesia and the surgery is considered invasive (i.e, they’re cutting you open and going inside).

Extracting material from a cyst for a biopsy is NOT considered surgery. By contrast even minor surgery such as a cyst removal calls for the patient to consent – and sign a waiver form acknowledging the risks.

Braden is alleging in his suit that the doctor told him he was only extracting material from the cyst for a biopsy. That’s what he consented to. Braden was not under any kind of anesthesia so there’s no reason why the doctor couldn’t have told him that he changed his mind and was going to cut into the foot to remove the cyst. Such a procedure requires consent from the patient. Braden contends that he was not presented with that opportunity.

by OaklandSi on Oct 24, 2010 4:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

Wait, what?

I was under the impression that they found nothing in Simmons and just kind of shrugged their shoulders about the situation.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 24, 2010 6:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

Maybe that's when bone chips fell out?

Of the surgeon, though, not Simmons.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 24, 2010 6:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

This was found on his fb, and I can't find anything on it on scout or anything like that.

But here’s what I found a few months ago.

A's Fan in Sweden

"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime

by travdog6 on Oct 25, 2010 5:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

Surgery in Locker Room

Is it correct that when Braden was being examined, that the locker room was emptied, and the surgery was done on the training table?

by redtopcowboy on Oct 24, 2010 11:01 AM PDT reply actions  

where did you hear or read that?

The lawsuit mentions the medical group’s office in downtown Oakland as where Braden received treatment, not the locker room.

by OaklandSi on Oct 24, 2010 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

Hey, good news:

Two more A’s players that we didn’t even know were hurt that badly just had surgery! And one of them had a major procedure with a huge failure rate!

I love this team.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 27, 2010 7:19 PM PDT reply actions  

I'm truly baffled.

How can you be fine through the end of the season, and then, oh I should probably get my torn labrum and hip or whatever fixed. WTF?

A's Fan in Sweden

"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime

by travdog6 on Oct 27, 2010 7:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

Didn't Chavvy attribute his "shredded labrum" as the hardest injury to overcome?

Repairing a labrum on a non-throwing shoulder for a SS…..will this effect Penny’s mobility?

by hishnik on Oct 28, 2010 9:43 AM PDT up reply actions  

Chavvy put off surgery on his shoulder for years before he finally got it done

it was also his throwing shoulder.

It’s possible that Chavez was compensating for years for his bad shoulder, and that may have led to his back and other shoulder problems.

From Pennington’s statement the shoulder was first injured during this past season. So I’m glad he got it done now.

by OaklandSi on Oct 28, 2010 10:09 AM PDT up reply actions  

Thanks for the clarification

Been a bad short off-season thus far…….The injuries are breaking my fandom…..not to mention I just retired my green and gold signed hat to the memorabilia room, Aeternum vale Curt…C’est la vie

by hishnik on Oct 28, 2010 11:55 AM PDT reply actions  

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