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PxP: 9th Inning, When Managers Rise To Shine

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I'm whiny and I'm vain
And this is all a lot of work.
Here’s a deal: I’m only 7 recs short of 400 (for FanPosts only). And thanks to staying up late today again and having to get up early tomorrow, I’ll be very grumpy when I wake up. Reaching 400 would be a nice antidote for that :)
"Good thing you can't hit, otherwise everybody would hate you"
– H.J.S., my ex coach (while drunkenly talking to me during a team visit to a strip joint)
I was 7 wooohooo
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Oct 21, 2010 4:05 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm glad you posted this
I wonder if there’s something to a starting pitcher’s ability [or less effectiveness] bwteen pitching from the windup or pitching from the stretch that leads to the huge difference between the 9th inning numbers and the earlier innings.
In another observation, I was looking at the value added by a batter leading off an inning and reaching 1B: it’s plus .39! Making an out in this scenario subtracts .25. That’s a spread of .64. Value added by reaching 2B: plus .63; a plus .88 over making an out. Value added by reaching 3B: plus .92; a plus 1.17 over making an out.
Obviously, advancing extra bases while leading off an inning is better than just reaching first base. But does the decreasing nature of the value added [from each additional base] suggest that OBP is more valuable than SLG while leading off. I have not run the numbers in other men-on situations but if the same decreasing nature holds, is this meaningful to any OBP versus SLG debate?
Thanks
I covered some of the things you are mentioning in the previous article, take a look
"Good thing you can't hit, otherwise everybody would hate you"
– H.J.S., my ex coach (while drunkenly talking to me during a team visit to a strip joint)
Must have been subliminal
I had read that FP shortly after you posted it. Still, after re-reading it, I honestly thought I was coming up with something original above as I was commenting. Silly me. A well done excursion [I was wondering where you were going with your first PxP FP]
by LowcountryJoe on Oct 22, 2010 2:38 AM PDT up reply actions
Great stuff as always.
But one thing:
While an average MLB hitter hits for an OPS of .755 or a wOBA of .322, pinch hitters do it much worse (.665/.299). It is understandable – pinch hitters are mostly players who are not good enough to be starters, or starters who are not fresh or healthy enough to be actually starting.
There’s more to it than that. Even if you compare the same batter’s stats when starting vs. when pinching, there’s a steep dropoff. Batters get worse when coming off of the bench. It’s more than just a different set of batters.
You are right
I made an attempt to cover it with the second part of that sentence (“or starters who are not fresh or healthy enough to be actually starting”), but I think that falls short of explaining all the effects of pinch hitting. Thanks.
"Good thing you can't hit, otherwise everybody would hate you"
– H.J.S., my ex coach (while drunkenly talking to me during a team visit to a strip joint)
Like I tell the dog... I won't reward begging
Interesting read, though.
The monster at the end of this blog.
It worked the other way around
;-)
"Good thing you can't hit, otherwise everybody would hate you"
– H.J.S., my ex coach (while drunkenly talking to me during a team visit to a strip joint)
What kinda asshole
A's Fan in Sweden
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
If those were "suggestions", then so was elcroata's.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Oct 23, 2010 12:10 AM PDT up reply actions
It's OK
I believe that grover’s original comment reads harder than it is meant to be. Or at least I hope so and decided to interpret it as a 100% joke. Just as I did when somewhat indirectly likened to a gutless politician who fakes a moderate approach to life in order to get his FanPosts recommended.
I am also aware that asking for, suggesting or “begging” for recs is a dubious approach to readership and if I rubbed someone the wrong way by doing it, then I’m sorry about it.
I hope that most, if not all of the people who did recommend this article, did so because they found it interesting enough to recommend it. Perhaps there were really a few people who did it only after reading my comment, perhaps as a sort of singular recognition for the whole body of work (there must be a facebook pic joke somewhere in there). Or just because they are nice people and wanted to make someone happy.
I said in the title of my comment that I’m whiny and vain, and I was only half joking. Recognition of my work does make me happy, and when it comes to writing on AN – the recs and nice comments are the way of recognition. As anyone who has spent more than an hour or two on preparing a FanPost can attest, there are other things to do in life instead of writing an AN article, and many a time it is hard to convince oneself to take the time to write or research, instead of doing one of the hundred things one has to do. To me the motivation comes from knowing that the work is appreciated, that people read it and enjoy it. And yes, one of the things that assure me of that are the recs, no matter how wrong or vain that might be.
And as for asking for 7 recs – as conceited as it might sound, I was expecting that the article might reach that number, my comment or not. Not because I think it deserves it, but because my previous 15 or so articles all reached that. So what I was, half-jokingly, asking for – were not the additional recs, but the quick ones. I knew I had a very lousy morning ahead of me and wanted some sort of silver lining when I get up. And if some people really only rec’d it to make me somewhat happier – so be it. Thank you, it worked.
"Good thing you can't hit, otherwise everybody would hate you"
– H.J.S., my ex coach (while drunkenly talking to me during a team visit to a strip joint)
by elcroata on Oct 23, 2010 1:52 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think you should know:
I enjoy your approach to writing and the way you share personal stories with the asterisks and ‘footnotes’, for the lack of a better word. To me, you’re never dull…posting a TL; DR would be the last thing that would come to my mind.
I think that it’s pretty cool that you can lay all your cards face-up on the table, exposing yourself to criticism while at the same time explaining yourself well enough to disarm anyone who would want to. I find that kind of honesty and non-guarded response refreshing on the Internet.
by LowcountryJoe on Oct 23, 2010 5:05 AM PDT up reply actions
Thanks, LCJ
"Good thing you can't hit, otherwise everybody would hate you"
– H.J.S., my ex coach (while drunkenly talking to me during a team visit to a strip joint)
Personally, I don't care about recs at all,
but I know some people do. I think that knowing that a person cares about recs does make me more likely to give them. I still only give them if I really mean it, but I’m more likely to think to give it if it’s someone who I know is rec-conscious.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
Quality work is always appreciated
And I fully understand the joys of peer recognition. This was a good, informative read.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Just for the record, I was joking too.
A's Fan in Sweden
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
I thought that one was pretty clear, too
"Good thing you can't hit, otherwise everybody would hate you"
– H.J.S., my ex coach (while drunkenly talking to me during a team visit to a strip joint)
It's amusing that lenscrafters is the one who couldn't see it clearly
I think I avoided the pun…
The monster at the end of this blog.
So you were joking?
It was clear to me that travdog6 was joking. But you, with your recent history, and your tendency to explode at the slightest of slights, no I would never assume you’re joking (and this comment that I’m replying to certainly isn’t doing much to change minds, especially since my original comment wasn’t much of a dig at all).
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Oct 23, 2010 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions
The slightest of slights?
Coming from someone who thinks the previous comment was a shot at him. “Lenscrafters” “seeing clearly”… I even referrenced puns.
Elcroata got that I was joking around. If you couldn’t… well, I’ll try leading with “knock knock” the next time I tell you a joke.
The monster at the end of this blog.
It’s amusing that lenscrafters is the one who couldn’t see it clearly
That’s not a snarky dig? Seems rather pointless and childish to bring my name back into the conversation anyways since, like I said, my original comment wasn’t a dig at all.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Oct 23, 2010 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions
Lens! Seeing clearly! It was play on your name
I found it amusing. You didn’t. Fine. But don’t go imagining a slight when there was none intended.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Nah, the amusing thing is being lectured on what's a slight and what's not a slight, with regards to a handle, by you.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Oct 23, 2010 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Hockey coaches get to substitute WHILE PLAY IS GOING ON!
If LaRussa would love being a hoops coach…
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
How very true!
"Good thing you can't hit, otherwise everybody would hate you"
– H.J.S., my ex coach (while drunkenly talking to me during a team visit to a strip joint)
IMO that is why the game
is much more enthralling watching in person than on television. The whole changing line is elegant (at the NHL level).
Officially awaiting the 2011 MLB season
by One won lost won on Oct 22, 2010 9:00 PM PDT up reply actions
you should explain what the three numbers in the green diamonds mean
also the circles, although that should be fairly obvious
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones."
-BB 07/27/05
That was in an earlier post, but you're right.
It bears repeating for those who didn’t see the earlier one.
The circles represent which bases are occupied by runners. The three numbers represent average expected run value for the inning, with zero, one, or two outs.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
You are definitely right
Sorry and thanks to iglew for jumping in. I’ll label all the charts better.
"Good thing you can't hit, otherwise everybody would hate you"
– H.J.S., my ex coach (while drunkenly talking to me during a team visit to a strip joint)
Ninth inning.
You keep emphasizing that in the ninth inning “we’re playing for that one run”.
But in fact, in most ninth innings we aren’t. In a close game you’re playing for that one run. Often you are several runs ahead or several runs behind. If you’re way behind maybe you leave your crappy reliever out there so as to not waste anyone for tomorrow, or if you’re way ahead maybe you give the rookie a chance to get some practice when there’s not much pressure. Or in either case maybe you sub out your regular hitters and let the bench guys have some playing time.
In your strategy discussion you are focusing on those close games where you really are playing for the one run in the ninth, but your win expectancy data includes all ninth innings, right? So are they really the right numbers to be examining?
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
No, it includes only the correct data
I really filtered only the data that applies to the close games. I did a poor job of labeling the charts, though, and making it clear. I’ll fix that now.
Actually, one chart even states that explicitly — the one with the percentages — where the footer says “9th inning, neither team ahead by more than a run”. The one with both the general and the ninth inning run expectancies gives an implicit hint – if you cross compare it with the first chart in the article, you can see that rExp for 0 on, 0 out matches that of 9+(1R).
"Good thing you can't hit, otherwise everybody would hate you"
– H.J.S., my ex coach (while drunkenly talking to me during a team visit to a strip joint)
Ah, I see now.
Yeah, I didn’t get that on first reading. I thought it was all ninth inning situations.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
There is another chart added to the article and an explanantion why
"Good thing you can't hit, otherwise everybody would hate you"
– H.J.S., my ex coach (while drunkenly talking to me during a team visit to a strip joint)
It seems like in baseball, managers do a lot of their "work"
Before the game: coming up with the lineups, meeting with coaching staff about defensive positioning, studying film (if they even do that), thinking about matchups that are ultimately fruitless.
I don’t imagine there’s a whole lot to do before each game in football, basketball, and hockey because most of what you care about has already been figured out in the preseason.
!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam
As almost always when I downplay skill or importance of people I write about,
most of it is just good-faith rubbing.
However, as far as your comparisons go, I believe football and basketball coaches have much more to do in the preparation of the game than baseball managers do. There is just so much more individualism in the shape and form of team play of football and basketball teams. I am just watching Oregon Ducks and their hurry-up offense destroy UCLA. I am a fan of Boeheim and his zone. Remember the pick and rolls of Malone and Stockton way back then? These are the things that you have to prepare your team for as a coach.
When was the last time a baseball team really did something different? Something that truly differentiated them from other teams? LaRussa batting the pitcher eighth? If there were a team comprised only of speedy bunters who bunt 80% of the time or something like that, then yeah, you would have to prepare for them. But not as it is.
There are, of course, different individual personalities in baseball, too – most notably pitchers. It’s different facing Wakefield than it is Beckett, but there is hardly a different strategy to it, not on the team level, not the one that baseball manager has to prepare. The hitting coach might give a few tips before the game, but that’s basically it.
It is probably because baseball is the least “teamly” of all team sports that I can think of — it is just a series of individual confrontations with minimal team element to it — that the manager’s role as a teacher and a team preparation strategist is also rather small.
This definitely does not go to say that baseball managers are not important, and I will gladly admit that I am in no way capable of judging the difficulty of their job on a high professional level, nor measure the influence they have on their teams.
"Good thing you can't hit, otherwise everybody would hate you"
– H.J.S., my ex coach (while drunkenly talking to me during a team visit to a strip joint)
Right, but I'm saying that that kind of preparation is stuff you don't do before every game
The Stockton-Malone pick-and-roll was something they knew how to do from way before. You practice offensive maneuvers/strategy in football during weekday practices. There are only two things to do in baseball at any one time: hit or pitch, neither of which are controlled by the manager, really.
!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam
by cuppingmaster on Oct 22, 2010 9:21 AM PDT up reply actions
reminds me of a commercial flight I took out of Oakland
to Salt Lake City. I sat next to “The Mailman” and didn’t realize it for half the flight. Stockton pantomimed the movements of the flight attendant as she gave the mandatory safety instructions…especially memorable was his way of signalling the lights along the floor, which would light up in case of an emergency exit. With so much athleticism right down to his fingertips, he could imitate so exactly the young woman doing her routine it just made everyone roar with laughter.
At first, I didn’t realize/couldn’t believe that an NBA team was taking a commercial flight (7AM on a Saturday). When Mark Eaton came crotching down to enter the cabin, that’s when I realized, “Hey, this …is.. the…Utah Jazz!!” And then I realized it was Karl Malone sitting next to me…wearing faded jeans. I checked the sportspage, and saw that Malone had a crummy night, and the Jazz had lost. I didn’t talk to him about it.
Officially awaiting the 2011 MLB season
by One won lost won on Oct 22, 2010 9:22 PM PDT up reply actions
so exactly was supposed to be underlined, not crossed out.
I messed that up. shoulda previewed.
Officially awaiting the 2011 MLB season
by One won lost won on Oct 22, 2010 9:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Football coaches work 80-100 hour weeks
Baseball managers roll in at noon and look at a few index cards before writing out a lineup.
This post could not possibly be more wrong.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Great work as always (I won't insult you by searching for new superlatives)
I would bet that the spike in the 6th would correlate with the third time through the order, so the best hitters are batting again.
Which leads me to another question, is there a correlation between how well the batter does the more frequently he sees a particular pitcher?
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes
I believe I have seen research that shows the BAs go up the second and third time through the order,
but I don’t know about over the career.
by LoneStranger on Oct 22, 2010 12:06 PM PDT up reply actions
Thanks, Ed
I don’t know the answer. If you mean over career, I don’t think I can check that easily. But, if you mean a single game, I think I could research on that within the “pitch count” research I’m planning to do. I added the poll, btw. – perhaps you guys are interested in picking the next topic.
"Good thing you can't hit, otherwise everybody would hate you"
– H.J.S., my ex coach (while drunkenly talking to me during a team visit to a strip joint)
was thinking over a career
I agree it would be tough to measure. I can’t tell you what to research for pitch count. I’ll just be happy to read it.
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes
Doesn't seem that hard to measure.
Baseball Reference has all hitter-pitcher matchups, so I assume it’s in a database somewhere. If you can get a hold of that data, for each pairing do some sort of calculation that isolates how much better or worse that hitter is against that pitcher than he over all. Then plot that difference against total number of encounters for the pair.
Each pitcher-hitter pair is going to be a small sample, but you’ve got a bazillion pairs to work with, so when you average them all out the sample should be meaningful. If a hitter is better (or worse) after seeing a pitcher before, then you ought to see the hitter’s relative stats creep up with more encounters.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
No offense,
But this reminds me of the meeting with marketing people who just return from visiting a key customer where they committed that we will develop a faster and a cheaper laser by Thursday.
Especially the pieces “I assume it’s in a database somewhere”, "do some sort of calculation ", “you’ve got a bazillion pairs to work with” and “should be meaningful” ring the bell.
"Good thing you can't hit, otherwise everybody would hate you"
– H.J.S., my ex coach (while drunkenly talking to me during a team visit to a strip joint)
Heh. OK, point taken.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
Next time I shall have to try the opposite approach.
I’ll say, “Wow, that would be almost impossible to do. You’d have to find a source that has data for each pitcher-hitter pair. Then you’d have to somehow get them to give you the data in a usable form. Then you’d have create a new number for each pair which represents how much better or worse the hitter is against that pitcher compared to how he normally hits. Then you could plot that number against the total number of encounters for each hitter-pitcher pair and see if there’s a correlation, but even then I’m not sure you’d have enough data to really prove anything. I don’t think anyone would be willing to do that much work.”
After which you would say, “Aw hell, it’s not that hard,” and you’d spend the next 36 hours crunching the numbers to prove me wrong!
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
Now, you're talking!
I’m already working on it! ;-)
Seriously, that kind of approach is on the front page of “Psychological approach to engineers 101”, right between “Feed their egos” and “Challenge their intellect”
"Good thing you can't hit, otherwise everybody would hate you"
– H.J.S., my ex coach (while drunkenly talking to me during a team visit to a strip joint)
Plus lots of free soda.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
Chocolate
Don’t forget the chocolate.
On a serious note – the underlying data that BR uses is the same one that I use, namely retrosheet files. So, that’s a plus, meaning I have access to the raw data, but would have to alter the way I parse it and store it in the DB in order to query for that particular piece of information.
That is not a big problem – I expand the amount of data I extract from the files for every new PxP article.
The way you suggested going about it would make the analysis complicated, because you suggest comparing at bats to a control group baseline. For every match-up between a pitcher and a catcher, I would have to determine a dynamic baseline that was meaningful at the moment. This would cause numerous reiterations of computing and make it a very, very lengthy calculation.
I think I will simplify it, by opting only to look at the relative difference in the match-up itself. Find a group of pitcher-batter match-ups where there are, say, 25+ occurrences (I have 4000+ of those stored on my PC, for example ). Then compare OPS (or wOBA) of PA 1-5, 6-10 and so on.
Sure, some pitchers aged, some batters aged, or came into their prime, but with 20,000+ PA in each group, there just might be enough data to offset that. I might include it in the Pitch Counts article, as it is remotely related to the topic.
"Good thing you can't hit, otherwise everybody would hate you"
– H.J.S., my ex coach (while drunkenly talking to me during a team visit to a strip joint)
Fantastic post...
I got to it a bit late, but really appreciated the content.
Thanks all the same
"Good thing you can't hit, otherwise everybody would hate you"
– H.J.S., my ex coach (while drunkenly talking to me during a team visit to a strip joint)

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