Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: NFL Safety Ryan Clark's Motivational Workout

Where Will They Land? Part II: 2nd-Tier Free Agent Predictions

A week ago, I wrote a fan post that predicted the destinations of the top five free agents.  If you didn't get a chance to read it, I'd be grateful if you clicked the link above to read my rationalizations for those predictions.  But the Cliff's Notes version was this:

Yankees:  Cliff Lee, Andy Pettitte, Mariano Rivera, Derek Jeter
Red SoxJayson Werth, David Ortiz's option exercised, Carlos Pena (not a top-5 free agent, but I mentioned him and Ortiz in that first post to help explain my prediction that I foresee the Red Sox pushing Youkilis to 3b and going with a temporary option at both 1b and DH for 2011 in hopes of landing Adrian Gonzalez, Al Pujols, and/or Prince Fielder in a year.
Angels Adrian Beltre

I wrote in the previous post that, if those three teams prioritize their off-season signings in exactly way I've predicted, that would be the lone opportunity for the A's or any other surprise team to make a serious play at signing Carl Crawford.  Because realistically, if the Yankees/Red Sox/Angels prioritize him at the top of their list, I see no chance of another team outbidding any one of them significantly enough to sway his decision elsewhere. 

Now, keeping those predictions in the back of your mind, I'm going to throw out some 2nd-tier free agent predictions.  Please do comment on the ones I've provided, and make your own predictions in the comments below. 

Carl Pavano - NationalsWashington is reportedly very interested in acquiring a front-of-the-rotation ace.  At their current stage of rebuilding, it makes no sense to strip the farm in pursuit of Zack Grienke, which means they'll be looking to invest heavily in starting pitching.  Unfortunately, I'm virtually certain that they'll experience Mark Teixiera deja vu in their pursuit of Cliff Lee; they'll make an incredible offer for Lee, maybe even the best offer by a few million, and ultimately Lee will accept an offer from the Yankees or the Rangers instead, because the dollar figures are close enough and he wants to play for a perennial contender.  This will put the Nationals in the unenviable position of pursuing Carl Pavano as their "staff ace". 

Adam Dunn - Cubs The Nationals allow Dunn to walk as part of their renewed commitment to defense and redistribute his salary to Pavano, a pitch-to-contact strike-thrower.  But Dunn still wants to play a position, and he can guarantee he'll get that opportunity by staying in the NL.  The Cubs have a LHH power vacuum and created an obvious 1b opening with their Derrek Lee trade.  Similar to the Nats' signing of Pavano, this is the Cubs' "get the casual fan base excited, at least we added one name-worthy player this off-season" signing. 

Victor Martinez - TigersSeveral National writers are theorizing that the Tigers are one of the top three front-runners to sign Crawford, along with the Red Sox and Angels.  I am skeptical about this.  I cannot see the Tigers adding a $100M salary commitment this off-season, even though they have significant salary coming off the books.  I also think they have far greater needs elsewhere besides left field.  Signing V-Mart allows them to upgrade the putrid offense that Gerald Laird has been providing them and, sticking with the theme, add a "big name" that casual fan can get excited about as consolation for losing out on the bigger fish.  V-Mart could open the year as their primary DH/backup catcher and take over the everyday role if Alex Avila busts behind the plate.

Jorge De La Rosa - A's.  Ok, I'm blatantly cheating here:  Each previous prediction was meant to build on the ones before it - i.e., Adrian Beltre signs with the Angels, causing a chain reaction that leads to Carlos Pena signing in Boston, etc. Now, I'm switching the rules mid-stream and stating what I think the A's should(?) (I'm incapable of off-season A's objectivity) will do assuming that Hell remains very warm and that Carl Crawford does not in fact sign with my favorite team.  De La Rosa makes a ton of sense for the A's as a free agency Plan B, assuming the Rockies don't lock him up before he officially reaches free agency in a few weeks:  he's 29, he induces a ton of groundballs for Oakland's great infield defense, and his value is depressed by his Type A status, which gives the A's a slight competitive advantage in pursuing him relative to other desirable, contending teams.  Ted Lilly's 3 year, $33M deal helps establish a market for JDLR; I think that he too will garner three years, but at slightly less than $30M.  I made my Plan A for the A's off-season clear in this post, the first in a multi-part series.   But my Plan B involves signing De La Rosa and trading pitching for offense.  That's a topic I'll explore in great depth next week (I would be very grateful for some PitchFX/graphing help from danmerqury, ElCroata, PT, or dfa to sabermetrically analyze JDLR in that post, if any of you have the time).

Hiroki Kuroda - Japan.   Kuroda is a very popular target of ANers who seek a 5th-starter upgrade over Mazzaro.  Unfortunately, at 35, I see him headed back to Japan to finish his career.  He's hinted as much in interviews, and even if he does return, I think he's more likely to stay where he's comfortable, in Los Angeles, than to jump to a new franchise.  The Dodgers still have two SP vacancies even after signing Lilly, so he Kuroda stays stateside, that's a logical fit.  

Paul Konerko (White Sox), Derek Lee (Braves), Vlad (Rangers), Kubel and Thome (Twins) - All re-signing with their respective italicized teams. 

Players and topics I have no prediction for, but would be interested to hear your thoughts on:

Rafael Soriano - Undeniably great, but what non-Yankees team is going to give multiple years at greater than $10M for a closer anymore?  The last 5-6 teams that have done that have all gotten burned. 

Red Sox Catcher - One of the great mysteries of the off-season.  Are they ballsy enough to enter the year with Saltalamacchia and no safety net?  Are the Angels crazy enough to actually non-tender Mike Napoli and then wince as he hits 30 bombs for Boston?  Is Chris Iannetta or Russell Martin really available?  Do they consider free agent John Buck an acceptable Opening-Day starter in building a playoff team on paper?

Who do the Giants bring back once this feel-good run is done?  It feels like half their offense is going to become free agents.  And many of those free agents out-hit their projections over the last half-season.  Will the team end up paying huge money to bring the aging vets back, or make the very hard decision to waive those players goodbye?   

What will happen with Orlando Hudson (Type B) and Mark Ellis (Type A)?  As the two best FA second basemen, their fates are probably intertwined. 

 

 

 

 



 

Comment 366 comments  |  8 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

You get a rec from me

Alone for the fact that you wrote new content on 10 AM of a long business day. And it doesn’t hurt that I like the post, either ;-)

"Good thing you can't hit, otherwise everybody would hate you"
– H.J.S., my ex coach (while drunkenly talking to me during a team visit to a strip joint)

by elcroata on Oct 21, 2010 1:33 AM PDT reply actions  

And as for JDLR Pitch F/X data

I can probably help you. Let me know what is it that you are looking for, and I can analyze it for you.

"Good thing you can't hit, otherwise everybody would hate you"
– H.J.S., my ex coach (while drunkenly talking to me during a team visit to a strip joint)

by elcroata on Oct 21, 2010 3:45 AM PDT reply actions  

man, talk about selling low though

I’d hate for the team to trade him now, coming off the year he just had.

"It’s ideal if your hobby and your living can merge. But you are not going to stop your hobby if you can’t make money out of it. Your hobby is all about trading time for enjoyment. My job is what I do. My hobby is who I am." -Tango

by notsellingjeans on Oct 21, 2010 5:34 AM PDT up reply actions  

Well, it depends on what they could get for him

Since they don’t have to trade him, they still have all the leverage over the Red Sox.

I think it’s reasonable that Boston would offer the same quality of players as they would have before 2010.

www.zekeishungry.com

by thejd44 on Oct 21, 2010 6:13 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think its very reasonable

especially with their need for a catcher getting greater (varitek’s getting older and V-Mart is showing himself as NOT a full time catcher and is a free agent now).

They couldn’t cut bait with V-Mart last offseason without having to trade him, this year, they can very easily wave goodbye to V-Mart, take the draft picks in a loaded 2011 draft, and trade for Zooks.

by Blicks on Oct 21, 2010 6:25 AM PDT up reply actions  

I don't believe that

They probably should offer us less coming off of a mediocre year. Beane can hang up, obviously, but I see no reason why they would pretend last year didn’t happen. They could be concerned about a) injury or b) suckitude, both of which are valid.

!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam

by cuppingmaster on Oct 21, 2010 8:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

Suzuki

IMO, It’s the only offseason to acquire Suzuki. If he has a good season next year, the A’s will ask for a serious bounty and teams won’t bite. If he sucks again, teams won’t want him. 1 bad year doesn’t make a ballplayer. 2 years is a pattern.

by Colorado Fan on Oct 21, 2010 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Fair point

And as always, I’m all for trading anyone if it means making the team better.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Oct 21, 2010 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

If he bounces back and has a good season...

…wouldn’t we want to keep him?

What does a mama bear on the pill have in common with the World Series? No cubs. ~Harry Caray

by UncleLeo on Oct 21, 2010 8:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

Thus, it’s the only offseason that Suzuki will be moved.

by Colorado Fan on Oct 22, 2010 7:48 AM PDT up reply actions  

That is not a reason in and of itself to move him.

No one has a crystal ball, but it’s not unreasonable at all to expect him to rebound. Just as players sometimes have career years, sometimes players have off years, and he seems to have figured out some things near the end of the season that give legitimacy to the idea that he will bounce back.

What does a mama bear on the pill have in common with the World Series? No cubs. ~Harry Caray

by UncleLeo on Oct 22, 2010 7:52 AM PDT up reply actions  

I agree

- If Suzuki bounces back (I think he will), A’s will keep him through his contract.

- If Suzuki backs up this season with another below average season, no one will want him.

So, this is probably the only offseason he will be moved.

by Colorado Fan on Oct 22, 2010 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think we overplay this whole sell-high, sell-low business here on AN.

This isn’t just about Suzuki, it’s about anybody. If a guy has a good season but really isn’t that good, we all say “it’s a chance to sell high”. If a guy has a bad season but really isn’t , we all say “can’t trade him now because that would be selling low.”

Do we assume the other 29 teams are run by stupid robots that only look at a guy’s current stats? I mean, if you can see that the guy is better than his numbers or worse than his numbers, don’t you think that other people can see that, too?

I see this all the time in trade threads. Someone says we ought to trade for so-and-so because he’s better than you think. We then proceed to talk about it right here in the blog where anyone can read it, and yet somehow we still all assume it’s such secret knowledge and brilliant insight that the other GM hasn’t thought of it.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Oct 22, 2010 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Its not that its secret but different people buy different arguments.

Some didn’t believe that Rajai Davis was going to seriously regress this year. They would have bought him at nearly the full value of his stats. Others thought he would fall off a cliff and would have sold him at 80 cents on his full value dollar.

The stock market is the same way and yet people buy stock options and hedge on commodity prices all the time.

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Oct 22, 2010 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think the stock market is a fine example.

If it were really that easy, any one of us could go get rich off it.

It’s certainly true that different people (and different GMs) value different things, and thus a good trade can be found by knowing what some other GM wants that we don’t. But it feels like around here it’s just assumed that if a guy has a hot streak or gets a lot of hype on ESPN suddenly everyone else is willing to overpay for him.

With regard to Rajai Davis, when you say some people “would have bought him at nearly full value”, do you mean some fans who comment on blogs or actual GMs? If the latter, which ones?

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Oct 22, 2010 4:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah, we really, really, really do overplay it.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 22, 2010 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

And yet we see this exact sort of trade all the time

Funny, innit?

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 22, 2010 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

There's also public relations

Most people don’t understand that a career can be looked at with an eye toward years beyond the previous one. It takes guts to trade a player who just had a career year for a better player who just came off a bad one. Getting raked through the coals in February may not be such a bad idea if you’re going to be feted in August, but it’s a lot simpler to take the easier route than take a gamble and hope you won’t be raked, twice.

by richwol1 on Oct 27, 2010 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'd like to play with your 3rd level predictions

Carlos Pena – Cubs
The Red Sox have zero reason to sign a guy like Pena to a multi year deal. If the Red Sox aren’t signing Beltre, sign someone like Berkman for a 1 year stopgap and then throw gobs of money at Adrian Gonzalez next offseason, or even, dare I say it if it happens, Albert Pujols. And, it makes zero sense for Pena to sign a prove yourself deal when next year’s 1B market is awesome.

Adam Dunn- Nats

Ownership wants him back, and supposedly nixed certain deadline Dunn trades. Even if Rizzo got the extension, that doesn’t mean he’s not under ownership still.

Rafael Soriano – Angels

Angels because they need a replacement for Fuentes and are known to spend big on relief pitching. Red Sox because its very likely they will nontender Papelbon, and what better way to make your pen match up to the Yankees’ by leaving Bard in setup and signing Soriano. Oh yeah, if your big deal to Beltre and a large Soriano deal happens, no Crawford for them.

The Giants – For the most part, they’re all back. Ross, Huff, Burrell, and Uribe definitely back. . They don’t have immediate replacements in the minors, and this is Brian Sabean’s way to “sustain postseason success”.

by Blicks on Oct 21, 2010 6:47 AM PDT reply actions  

I have nothing against the Giants,

but it’s going to be very funny next season when Giants fans can’t figure out why they’re 15 games out of first all year.

"I wasn't able to extend so I had a serious lack of extension."--Dallas Braden

by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Oct 22, 2010 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

The smart fans will understand why

It’s Brian Sabean that I’m worried about.

Well, not “worried,” per se.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 22, 2010 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

All three of them?

What does a mama bear on the pill have in common with the World Series? No cubs. ~Harry Caray

by UncleLeo on Oct 22, 2010 9:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

They're not going to be 15 games out of first next year.

Lincecum, Cain, Sanchez, and Bumgarner aren’t going anywhere. In fact, they’re a good bet to get even better. The RiverCats offense could contend with that rotation.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Oct 25, 2010 7:06 AM PDT up reply actions  

huff, uribe, burrell, guillen

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes

by Future Ed on Oct 25, 2010 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions  

Zito, Rowand...

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Oct 25, 2010 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions  

yup

their staying!

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes

by Future Ed on Oct 25, 2010 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

So, the RiverCats offense?

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Oct 26, 2010 7:57 AM PDT up reply actions  

as funny as

them pointing upwards and to the left, and saying, “scoreboard”?

Nick Swisher is handsome.

by ChrisCEIT on Oct 25, 2010 8:34 AM PDT up reply actions  

I really like that Rafael Soriano to the Angels one, Blicks

Hadn’t thought of it before you wrote, makes perfect sense to me when I read it.

I also could see Berkman to the Red Sox, rather than Pena. But I could see Berkman retiring, too. He’s made noise about it.

"It’s ideal if your hobby and your living can merge. But you are not going to stop your hobby if you can’t make money out of it. Your hobby is all about trading time for enjoyment. My job is what I do. My hobby is who I am." -Tango

by notsellingjeans on Oct 22, 2010 4:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hmm... I don't see Berkman to the Red Sox, but to each their own

I’m really curious if the Angels will go after Soriano, with the Fuentes deal being terrible and all….
However, I think that if they don’t get Crawford or Beltre then Reagins will freak and spend the money on whoever he can.
And Soriano’s good, but not nearly worth the $10M/year he’s gonna get on the open market…

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Oct 22, 2010 6:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Would should the A's target in the trade market?

Choo? Could he be had for Mazzaro, Taylor, and Rodriguez? Hmmmm… I doubt it.

But an OF of Carter, Crisp, and Choo would be pretty good.

by Brett Narloch on Oct 21, 2010 7:49 AM PDT reply actions  

Kemp.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Oct 21, 2010 7:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

No idea, honestly.

I’m bad at coming up with trade scenarios.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Oct 21, 2010 8:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

carter, mazzaro plus

"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball

by flipgatey3 on Oct 21, 2010 5:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

No thanks.

Click.

Oakland Athletics * St. Bonaventure Bonnies * Green Bay Packers * Buffalo Sabres * New York Knicks

by RyanFromBonas on Oct 22, 2010 8:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

not saying i'd do it

but that it’s what it would take.

"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball

by flipgatey3 on Oct 22, 2010 12:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

for a guy who is allegedly out of favor in LA?

I don’t know that it would take THAT much.

Mazzaro/Taylor, perhaps?

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Oct 22, 2010 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

Taylor and Carter are much closer in value than people realize

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 22, 2010 6:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

I disagree.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Oct 22, 2010 8:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

pt is right here

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Oct 23, 2010 2:09 AM PDT up reply actions  

based on what?

Carter still has zomg light tower power and didn’t do anything to disprove that. If he can learn to be competent in LF, so much the better. If not, he’s still a 1B prospect with immense power potential. He may actually have more trade value to Oakland than actual value as a player, given Barton’s breakout at 1B.

Taylor was traded from Philly because they liked Dominic Brown better and then totally sucked in AAA.

Put it this way: I’d be very surprised if a team asked for Taylor before they asked for Carter in a trade.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Oct 23, 2010 10:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

Carter is neither an LF prospect nor a 1B prospect

He’s a DH prospect. Stop wishcasting him into a competent fielder. It’s not going to happen. Never, at any level, has he ever shown a single sign that he is capable of fielding a position for a major league baseball team.

Taylor is a solid corner OF who can play CF in a pinch. That’s like a 15 runs a season difference defensively.

Both players “totally sucked” this year. Let’s not pretend that Carter’s sub-.900 OPS in the PCL and total lack of progress on defense was some kind of breakout.

Carter has more trade value but that’s because many teams are still stuck in the “OMG DINGERZ” mindset and have not figured out that defense is important.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 23, 2010 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

Your last sentence is the only point I was making.

we all know Carter’s defensive shortcomings. I’m not wishcasting shit, the reason he was moved to LF was because of Barton.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Oct 23, 2010 12:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

To be good with Carter's level of defense you have to hit an epic ton.

He only hit well.

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Oct 23, 2010 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

Who is right here depends entirely on

what is meant by “people” in “than people realize”.

If you’re talking about ZOMG DINGERZ!! people, then yes, of course they are closer than people realize. If you’re talking about people who understand the bigger picture, then no, they aren’t closer than people realize, because those people realize more or less correctly.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Oct 23, 2010 9:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

How so?

Is it because Taylor is not a nightmare in the OF?

by PL78 on Oct 23, 2010 8:47 AM PDT up reply actions  

i just don't see

mazzaro being a valuable piece in a trade.

that’s more my point than carter v. taylor

"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball

by flipgatey3 on Oct 23, 2010 10:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

Fine, I'll lay it out there now. My Plan B would have the A's going this route:

Trade Mazzaro and Donaldson to the Dodgers for Kemp and a prospect in their system.

Trade Grant Green and Andrew Bailey to the Rays for B.J. Upton and a prospect in their system.

Then sign De La Rosa to make up for the loss of Mazzaro.

Total 2011 salary added: ~$9M for JDLR, $7M for Kemp, and ~$4.5M for Upton = $20.5M. Roughly the same as the Crawford splurge, without the 7-8 year commitment. Kemp and Upton both have two years prior to free agency and would figure to be extremely motivated to not only work hard, but be model citizens. They are earning their next contract, which won’t be paid by the A’s.

2011 Starting 9:

Upton R
Barton L
Kemp R
Cust L
Ellis R
Crisp S
Zooks R
Penny S
Kouz R

Outstanding outfield D, upgrades the offense at two key spots, pushes Kouz and Zooks down where they belong in the order.

Rays need a closer to replace Soriano and to patch up their entire bullpen leaving in FA. Dodgers need a cheap 4 or 5 SP to slot in behind their big 3. Donaldson and Green are only two A’s prospects that I see as both useful and potentially superfluous to the A’s, because both are blocked for the next five years by a better player.

The key is the A’s need to get something useful back in the prospect portion from both teams, because the major-league players changing hands favor the Rays and Dodgers. (But, as I’ve said many times, I think the deals I construct typically leave fans of both teams wincing at what they’d need to give up, which probably means it’s closer to fair than it would be if every A’s fan loved it).

"It’s ideal if your hobby and your living can merge. But you are not going to stop your hobby if you can’t make money out of it. Your hobby is all about trading time for enjoyment. My job is what I do. My hobby is who I am." -Tango

by notsellingjeans on Oct 21, 2010 8:37 AM PDT up reply actions  

Follow up:

Carter and Taylor remain in AAA, and finally take over starting gigs when Upton, Kemp (and Crisp and Cust) all leave in FA.

Long-term core is still very intact:

Zooks, Barton, Pennington, Rosales/Sogard/Weeks/Cardenas for 2b/3b, Choice/Carter/Taylor in OF.

"It’s ideal if your hobby and your living can merge. But you are not going to stop your hobby if you can’t make money out of it. Your hobby is all about trading time for enjoyment. My job is what I do. My hobby is who I am." -Tango

by notsellingjeans on Oct 21, 2010 8:41 AM PDT up reply actions  

Perhaps Suzuki to Boston for prospects that I can't name specifically

and one of those prospects to LA instead of Donaldson, who is better than we think and could step in as the starting C next season?

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Oct 21, 2010 8:46 AM PDT up reply actions  

Or....

Sign Victor Martinez; split his time at catcher with Powell and/or Donaldson.

Trade Suzuki to Boston for prospects and turn those prospects around for a second bat who can hit for power.

by richwol1 on Oct 21, 2010 9:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

I don't want any part of Victor Martinez as a catcher.

You and I can throw better than he can. Seriously.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Oct 21, 2010 10:48 AM PDT up reply actions  

Can Landon Powell be an every day catcher?

Can Josh Donaldson?

If either can, then Victor Martinez would be fine as the back-up, and could also get at bats as DH and at First Base. Kurt Suzuki seems to me, outside of starting pitchers, to be the easiest player to replace. We know the Red Sox want him, and we also know that any team in contention needs a Victor Martinez type on the bench or in the line-up.

I get your point, but I’d sacrifice a couple of games to Martinez in order to pick up a quality power hitter not available thru free agency.

by richwol1 on Oct 21, 2010 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

Donaldson can

Powell should only be playing 3-4 days a week, MAX.

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Oct 21, 2010 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

Powell has blown out both of his knees, so I very much doubt that he could hold up to an entire season.

But a 75/25 split of Donaldson and Powell, perhaps, would be just fine.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Oct 21, 2010 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

Do we really know that the Red Sox want him?

My impression is that certain Boston journalists want him, which is not the same thing as the team’s front office.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Oct 21, 2010 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

Landon Powell, by all appearances, sucks

I’m sure he was a hell of a ballplayer five years ago, but right now he’s pretty much a nonfactor. Whether that’s because of all the injuries or just because he’s over the hill, I don’t know.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 21, 2010 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

I am confused?

Why did Shooty Babbit exclaim-on the post game show that Landon should be the regular DH/C to platoon with Cust in 2010? (j/k)

by hishnik on Oct 22, 2010 9:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'd rather just let Vmart catch every day and put up a 4-6 WAR

Like he always does. No care ever if that means less runners thrown out than a league average guy. VMart is amongst other things, remarkably consistent at the plate. I have no problem upgrading over Zooks with him, and grabbing whoever from Boston for him.

by PL78 on Oct 23, 2010 8:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

Who cares about his defense?

He has been consistently a 4-6 WAR player over the last 7 years, save 08 when he got hurt.

by PL78 on Oct 23, 2010 8:52 AM PDT up reply actions  

he's never had 6 WAR in his life. 5.7 is as close as he's gotten.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Oct 23, 2010 10:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

which is close to 6, no?

or do i really have to say “he’s been a 3.9-5.7 WAR player the last 7 years”?

please dont take away rounding up/down from my arsenal of things to do when making a generalizing point, i beg you!

by PL78 on Oct 23, 2010 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

This could work

I’m all for Donaldson catching next year.
Unfortunately, Beane and Geren were idiots and didn’t even get Donaldson any real looks at the end of the year…

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Oct 21, 2010 10:00 AM PDT up reply actions  

I found it interesting Fosse has been very very complimentary on Donaldson

I Wonder if is a better 1b/C/Bench sub than say Tolleson (if Rosales stays healthy as super-sub).

by hishnik on Oct 21, 2010 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions  

I have a feeling he's gonna get screwed again

And end up back in AAA while Suzuki plays 150 games and Powell gets a couple chances here and there

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Oct 21, 2010 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm just saying he'll take another year in AAA

It really is a waste of his talent to rot on the bench and be a backup for Suzuki, he would be better off starting in AAA again…

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Oct 21, 2010 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

no no no no.

you cannot judge trades this way.

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Oct 21, 2010 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think he's trade bait numero uno this offseason.

"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."

by lenscrafters on Oct 21, 2010 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

well yeah thats pretty obvious

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Oct 21, 2010 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

You can make a case for Mazzaro too.

"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."

by lenscrafters on Oct 21, 2010 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

Mazzaro has a place where he could be used on the MLB team.

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Oct 21, 2010 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

What? Are you giving up your Donaldson --> third idea already?

"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."

by lenscrafters on Oct 21, 2010 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

Barton has it locked down

if we’re fantasizing about players switching positions.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Oct 21, 2010 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

No Im not but I don't think the A's believe in it.

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Oct 21, 2010 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

Donaldson fell off a cliff towards the end of last year

and really didn’t impress in his big-league stint. If there are big questions about Carter’s ability to perform at the big-league level next year, there should be even bigger questions about Donaldson, who’s done even less at AAA while being a year older than him.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Oct 21, 2010 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

The fact that hes a catcher negates the age difference. Also Carter is worth - 20 defensive runs compared to Donaldson

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Oct 21, 2010 12:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'd prefer to focus on their bats

We can measure them far more accurately, and they each have room to grow. I don’t think you can draw a quantitative defensive distinction between them that’s as definitive as you suggest. There’s still questions about him as a catcher, too.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Oct 21, 2010 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

This is like saying that you'd like to compare the employability of Pamela Anderson and Alan Greenspan

and would prefer to focus on their breasts.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 21, 2010 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

this is perhaps the most awesome thing ever said here.

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Oct 21, 2010 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

What?!?!?

Pamela’s breasts have always been over-rated. She gets mentioned so often ’cause Baywatch was the closest thing to soft core porn most of our generation could find on TV.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Oct 21, 2010 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

I know I know I know. But because they are supremely overrated there is universal understanding of the joke.

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Oct 21, 2010 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

Nested "Borat" sub-reference FTW!

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 21, 2010 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

Could have gone with Salma Hayek.

And yet, I still think Pamela is funnier.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Oct 22, 2010 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

Exactly

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Oct 22, 2010 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

Who spoke ill?

I’m just saying the joke is funnier with Pamela. Pamela is more … comical.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Oct 23, 2010 12:26 AM PDT up reply actions  

Sometimes it is:

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Oct 23, 2010 9:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

The second line refers to

Pamela’s plastic surgeon.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Oct 24, 2010 1:28 AM PDT up reply actions  

wow

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Oct 23, 2010 10:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

uh-huh

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Oct 24, 2010 6:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

Agreed

But they’re probably still better than Greenspan’s.

by ozzman99 on Oct 22, 2010 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions  

I feel for you,

my American friends

"Good thing you can't hit, otherwise everybody would hate you"
– H.J.S., my ex coach (while drunkenly talking to me during a team visit to a strip joint)

by elcroata on Oct 22, 2010 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

Are you speaking to us

or to Pamela Anderson’s breasts?

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Oct 22, 2010 4:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

heh

"Good thing you can't hit, otherwise everybody would hate you"
– H.J.S., my ex coach (while drunkenly talking to me during a team visit to a strip joint)

by elcroata on Oct 23, 2010 12:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'd go with Greenspan

in terms of room to grow. I doubt there’s enough biological material left in Pamela Anderson’s to grow any direction. And Greenspan’s can always grow down.

by UrgentMirth on Oct 21, 2010 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

Are you suggesting that the positional adjustment between C and LF isn't 20 runs?

Also the move from catcher to 3b would be the same cost as the move from LF to DH. Also your statement is the equivalent of “I want to make sure my analysis is terrible and incomplete.”

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Oct 21, 2010 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

awesome

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Oct 21, 2010 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

Donaldson didn't impress because he only got like 6 at bats*

.

* 6 may be an exaggeration

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Oct 21, 2010 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

34 PA, but yes, not a lot.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Oct 21, 2010 1:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sheesh, that's it?

The worst part is that it was seemingly spread out over about 3 months.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Oct 21, 2010 1:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

And all of 7 PAs

Once he got called up in Sept.

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Oct 21, 2010 1:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

It was actually over a very short period

4/30-5/15. He played very regularly while Zooks was hurt.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Oct 21, 2010 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

I know some people don't like using them

But his park and luck neutral stats were very, very good. Also, .255 BABIP is pretty low…

And he really didn’t fall off a cliff, he was hurt at the end of the year…

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Oct 21, 2010 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well, OK, I guess.

You just wrote that Beane and Geren were stupid for not giving him looks at the end of the year…but he was hurt at the end of the year? I’m confused.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Oct 21, 2010 1:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well I dunno what his health was like when he was called up

But he didn’t play like at all in late July and August for Sacto…

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Oct 21, 2010 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

where are you getting park and luck neutral stats? Minorleaguesplits was taken down.

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Oct 21, 2010 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

I remember them with Donaldson

I just remember having the conversation about him in September and looking them up.

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Oct 21, 2010 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

His park and luck adjusted wOBA was close to .400

IIRC

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Oct 21, 2010 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

I remember like a 900 plus ops but I couldn't remember anything else

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Oct 21, 2010 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

I could be wrong

I just know that he was incredibly unlucky last year

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Oct 21, 2010 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

by last year you mean 2010 right?

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Oct 21, 2010 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yes yes

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Oct 21, 2010 6:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

its weird that its already over

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Oct 21, 2010 6:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

That's right

NO MORE BASEBALL TO SEE HERE!
(and while I right this Cody fucking Ross drives Burrell in)

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Oct 21, 2010 6:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

*write

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Oct 21, 2010 6:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

So who closes for the A's, then?

Bullpen depth isn’t exactly a glaring strength of the team.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Oct 21, 2010 8:52 AM PDT up reply actions  

Joey Devi^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HH

:cough:

Sorry.

When he’s healthy I think Joey De^H^H^H^H^HH^^H^HH^H^H^H^H^H^H^

DAMMIT.

J-o-e-y D-e-v-i-n^H^H^H^H^H^^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HH^^H

oh, screw it.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Oct 21, 2010 8:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

Is Devine shot at this point?

He had TJ surger in ’07? ’08? At this rate he may never recover.

by hishnik on Oct 21, 2010 9:14 AM PDT up reply actions  

I heard he actually threw a ball some time in September.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Oct 21, 2010 9:24 AM PDT up reply actions  

and was injury prone even before coming to the A's

at this point I wouldn’t want to assume that the can close for a full season

by OaklandSi on Oct 21, 2010 10:19 AM PDT up reply actions  

KKorach and Contreone were talking on the Radio that his simulated sessions in Sept

Went very well. They had one of those moments I love between them of getting passive aggressive w/one another on the air. Vince was doubting KKorach’s enthusiasm for Devine next year. My 2nd favorite is when Vince will coax him into a Bill King Story (“so what will Bill King say about this inter-league road trip coming up?”)

by hishnik on Oct 21, 2010 11:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

'09

He had a pretty good year in ’08…

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Oct 21, 2010 9:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

Half the people here don't remember control-H.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Oct 21, 2010 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

see the bookmark history?

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Oct 21, 2010 3:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't know what that is.

Is it a movie?

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Oct 21, 2010 4:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

Isringhausen.

"It’s ideal if your hobby and your living can merge. But you are not going to stop your hobby if you can’t make money out of it. Your hobby is all about trading time for enjoyment. My job is what I do. My hobby is who I am." -Tango

by notsellingjeans on Oct 21, 2010 9:04 AM PDT up reply actions  

Why?

Is Billy Taylor unavailable?

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Oct 21, 2010 9:19 AM PDT up reply actions  

Meh

Wuertz at first. Eventually DLS comes up and takes the job.

Bullpen depth is not a problem.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 21, 2010 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions  

Isn't FDLS long relief in AA?

Hard to believe the shiny diamond of the Swisher deal has been so lackluster…..

by hishnik on Oct 21, 2010 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions  

... no?

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 21, 2010 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

DLS went multiple innings 'cause the A's wanted to get him innings

His days as a SP seem to be over but his 14.49 K/9 last year argues for an eventual job in the 8th or 9th inning… depending on how much he tightens his control.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Oct 21, 2010 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

Um... 14.49 K/9... yum...

How ugly was his B/9?

Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples

Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.

If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.

by DMOAS on Oct 21, 2010 12:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

4.55 B/9

TJ surgery blah blah blah.

Command being the last thing blah blah blah.

4.55 B/9 is too high for me to feel comfortable with him closing; I’d want there to be someone better behind him to clean up any potential mess.

Walks kill, especially in the late innings of close games. If DLS gets his B/9 down into the low-3’s then we can talk about him as an option to close.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Oct 21, 2010 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yikes.

A walk every other inning, yeah, I wouldn’t want to rely on that. Though it’s nice that he Ks as many as he does to make up for it. Sadly a lot of the time Ks guys walk a lot. But I agree that it has to be much lower before he should be closing.

Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples

Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.

If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.

by DMOAS on Oct 21, 2010 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

Shrug

Better than Carlos Marmol.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 21, 2010 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

Who posted a 15.99 K/9 vs. big league hitters

It’s a bit more reasonable to ask DSL to trim back the walks instead increasing his K/9.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Oct 21, 2010 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well, sure

But, there are good reasons (the TJS, the fact that he’s been much better in the past, etc.) to expect him to do so.

I’m just saying walks don’t completely destroy a pitcher’s value if he can fan enough hitters.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 21, 2010 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

Paul...
But, there are good reasons (the TJS, the fact that he’s been much better in the past, etc.) to expect him to do so.

That’s what blah blah blah means!

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Oct 21, 2010 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

Count Blah is an entirely different muppet, dude

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 21, 2010 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

I love greg the bunny

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes

by Future Ed on Oct 21, 2010 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

Wow

2 of 2 on people actually getting my cultural references!

I must be becoming more normal or something.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 21, 2010 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

hogwash

!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam

by cuppingmaster on Oct 22, 2010 7:14 AM PDT up reply actions  

Beane went out of way to laud him at the end of the '09 season.

I think he took a step backward in ’10, I find it fascinating how some players never recover from TJ surgery. Bailey seems to be one of the against the norm players who bounces back.

by hishnik on Oct 21, 2010 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

What are you talking about? Most TJS (in the major and minor leagues) are successful.

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Oct 21, 2010 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

I heard something like an 80% success rate

But that could be off a little…

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Oct 22, 2010 6:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

thats for the second surgery. its higher for the first one.

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Oct 23, 2010 2:12 AM PDT up reply actions  

To name a few

Scott Williamson, Pat Hengten, BJ Ryan, Darren Dreifort, Kris Benson, Phil Humber, Jared Wright, Mike Hampton, Bill Pulishper, There are others, but I think its safe to say 20-40 % arent the same guy after surgery.

by hishnik on Oct 23, 2010 12:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

Hampton, Benson, and Ryan definitely had issues outside of elbow injuries

(i don’t know about the others)

e.g. shoulder issues and other injuries, which TJS doesn’t fix, at all.

The norm is still players bounce back from TJS (~80% recovery rate). They don’t all bounce back, but most do.

by Blicks on Oct 24, 2010 7:52 AM PDT up reply actions  

He took a major step forward, IMO

Stop looking at his ERA. It was unbelievably higher than his FIP this season.
Once those numbers even out you’re going to really like him

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Oct 21, 2010 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

That's quite a gamble.

Wuertz’s elbow spent a lot of time barking last year, he’s on the wrong side of 30, and he throws an elbow destroying pitch. The gap you’re asking him to bridge could easily become wider than you might imagine.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Oct 21, 2010 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

He is slated to make 3 Million +

for 2 more years? He could have us on a hook for a while. His overuse in 2009 was really unacceptable.

by hishnik on Oct 21, 2010 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

hahahaha 3 million is less than we paid to acquire Rosales. Its a completely inconsequential sum.

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Oct 21, 2010 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

can I borrow $3 Million? You won't even notice!

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Oct 21, 2010 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

How do you want it paid out? A cashiers check or in pudding cups?

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Oct 21, 2010 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

$2,999,760 in a cashiers check

the rest in pudding.

Thx

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Oct 21, 2010 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

man thats two trips. come on, be considerate.

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Oct 21, 2010 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

I have a truck, I'll pick it up.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Oct 21, 2010 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

The Oakland Front Office very seldom will dole out a long term deal like this to a middle reliever

The salary dump swap to land Rosales was to upgrade from Crosby to a better utility Super-Sub. Can we compar the price to achieve this commodity to an independent purchase of a fungible asset, i.e. paying a premium for a 30+ aged middle reliever. Do I have this one wrong?

by hishnik on Oct 21, 2010 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

Actually, they've had a bad habit of doing just that

Remember Jay Witasick? And they dropped a ton on Russ Springer and Alan Embree.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 21, 2010 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

I was just gonna say Embree and Springer

Seems like they freak out and do this once every year or two…

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Oct 21, 2010 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

Meh

I’m not worrying about the bullpen. It will work itself out. The A’s have tons of candidates to do well in their bullpen. This year seems like an anomaly to me.

There are so many bigger problems.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 21, 2010 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

i agree

We have the arms to bolster the bullpen, I just don’t really have the faith that management will put the right guys in there…

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Oct 21, 2010 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't think the Rays trust having injury-prone Jennings as their only CF

Although I think that is more than enough value wise, to get him.

If we are going to trade Bailey to the Rays, I would rather include him in a deal for Zobrist. Zobrist can go into spring training as the starting RF. If Michael Taylor has a great spring, make him the starter and release Kouz, moving Zorilla to 3B.

by drink on Oct 21, 2010 9:24 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I don't think we'll see the Rays trading any OFs

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Oct 21, 2010 9:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

Well... it's bold

If Upton goes on the trading block there figure to be a bunch of interest. I’m not sure Bailey and Green gets it done.

I’d also argue that Mazzaro/Donaldson is light to land Kemp and certainly not enough to land Kemp plus 1.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Oct 21, 2010 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think Bailey and Green is too MUCH for Upton

He’s really not that good.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 21, 2010 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

this.

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Oct 21, 2010 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

3.4 WAR from a 26 year old CF with 2 more years of team control

is fairly valuable.

A lot of teams would be interested if he went on the market and they would be bidding on the idea that he’s still got growth potential. That’s the key. He’s still young enough to realistically get better and then he will be that good.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Oct 21, 2010 1:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

I was under the impression that Upton has continually gotten worse but that's not been the case.

He’s put up 4.2, 4.7, 2.2, and 3.4 WAR the last two years. Trading an injury prone reliever + a top prospect for a 26 CF with those numbers might actually favor the A’s.

"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."

by lenscrafters on Oct 21, 2010 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

should say last 4 years

"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."

by lenscrafters on Oct 21, 2010 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

hes projected by Chone for 3.8 next year.

But he is going to be well paid in arbitration and Im suspicious of the ISO spike.

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Oct 21, 2010 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

He's not going to be paid more than 5 million, which is nothing if he's really projected for 4 WAR.

"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."

by lenscrafters on Oct 21, 2010 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

they had an august 28th true talent update thats available on baseballprojections.com

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Oct 21, 2010 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

Crawford at 3.5???

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Oct 21, 2010 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

Forget it, then.

We have too many 3.8 WAR players.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Oct 21, 2010 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

So, if g thinks it's too little for Upton, and PT thinks it's too much for Upton...

that probably means I’m pretty close, right? The debate isn’t, “This deal is ridiculously unfair” for either side, it’s more, “Does this make sense and is it feasible for both sides.”

As for Kemp, keep in mind he’s significantly more expensive than Upton. If Upton makes ~$4.5M in arby this year, he’ll make about ~$6 or $6.5M in his final year (2012). Kemp makes $7M next year, putting him at ~$9M next year.

So when we’re factoring in the price the A’s should pay, I think it’s important to factor in that Kemp should be worth less than Upton in part because he’s going to cost $5-6M more combined over the next two years.

Five years of Mazzaro cost control is nothing to sniff at. Especially since he’ll thrive in an NL pitcher’s park.

"It’s ideal if your hobby and your living can merge. But you are not going to stop your hobby if you can’t make money out of it. Your hobby is all about trading time for enjoyment. My job is what I do. My hobby is who I am." -Tango

by notsellingjeans on Oct 22, 2010 4:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

I wouldn't go that far

A poll over at DRays’ Bay says 33% like the plan… the rest don’t.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Oct 22, 2010 6:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

Eh

SSS :)

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Oct 22, 2010 6:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

That statement is just as much bullshit as the poll you put in the post you made over there.

Why does the poll include the option, “Upton’s going nowhere, get out of here grover”?

They already don’t like you over there because of previous A’s trade suggestions you’ve made. And of course, the majority of home fans are going to want keep one of their best players rather than trade him for prospects – it’s human nature to want immediate gratification. It’s the rare fan that sidesteps that emotion.

So no wonder 52% of people have chosen option #1. Of the remaining 48% who actually considered trading Upton at all, the vast majority said that “the Green/Bailey package gets it done.”

Your 33% comment is very disingenuous.

"It’s ideal if your hobby and your living can merge. But you are not going to stop your hobby if you can’t make money out of it. Your hobby is all about trading time for enjoyment. My job is what I do. My hobby is who I am." -Tango

by notsellingjeans on Oct 22, 2010 6:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

Fuck you, NSJ

I was doing you a favor. For the record, I have now made a grand total of 2 fanposts on DRay’s Bay and I did not get any heat from anyone on my most recent sojourn. Looking back, the person who got most persnickety on my original visit has been one of the most engaged this time around. So if you want to talk about bullshit, I’d love to hear the tale you weave that proves just how much I’m disliked over there.

What is your fucking problem? You don’t think a poll about a possible trade scenario should include the option for the home team to keep their player? Yes, that would make for a very relevant poll. The Rays will trade BJ Upton because NSJ says they will. And I get accused for having an excessive ego?!?!

What I posted at 6 PM was the truth. 33% of the folks who participated in the poll liked the proposal as is. The rest either wanted more in return or were against the idea. I’m sorry you don’t like that reality. I’m sorry I went out of my way to run your ideas by DRay’s Bay and True Blue. I’m sorry you’re too fucking lazy to post something on Minorleagueball to see what neutral parties would think about your ideas.

I assure you I will not go out of my way to help test your ideas again.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Oct 22, 2010 7:51 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

I assure you that I do not require your "help," on anything.

Thank you for apologizing. I accept your apology.

"It’s ideal if your hobby and your living can merge. But you are not going to stop your hobby if you can’t make money out of it. Your hobby is all about trading time for enjoyment. My job is what I do. My hobby is who I am." -Tango

by notsellingjeans on Oct 22, 2010 8:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

That would probably be construed as helping

Or at least as providing informed discussion.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Oct 22, 2010 9:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

I linked to the DRaysBay post in my post immediately above g's "f--- you"

"It’s ideal if your hobby and your living can merge. But you are not going to stop your hobby if you can’t make money out of it. Your hobby is all about trading time for enjoyment. My job is what I do. My hobby is who I am." -Tango

by notsellingjeans on Oct 22, 2010 9:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

And sadly, I never will.

Because I don’t visit True Blue. I care a lot less about the opinions of random people than you do. That’s why I don’t beg for recs when I write a fanpost like you do.

What I do care about is the thoughtful opinions of 20-30 people I’ve come to know here. They have an established credibility, and I’m very grateful that they provide me with a sports-obsessed, highly intellectual peer group that my work and life experience does not.

I bothered to go the DRaysBay link because I’ve been to that website before, and I know the community well enough to value it’s contributions and feedback. I have no such rapport with the Dodgers blog.

I’m guessing, though, that you screwed up the Kemp poll in the same way that you screwed up the Upton one. If you want an accurate read on whether or not the proposal is too much or too little, you need to design the poll in this way:

(I’m going to pause for drama, so this really sinks in)…

Please assume, even if you do not think this would ever happen, that the A’s and Rays have made a trade. Would the Rays accept a package of Bailey and Green as an acceptable return for Upton?

And then, here’s the options you would put in those polls:

a.) Yes
b.) No

I know. That was tricky as hell to construct. But unlike your poll, we would actually have some data about the percentage of Rays fans in terms of whether or not they thought the proposal was fair.*

*Not whether or not they want to trade Upton. We don’t give a shit about that, because it’s irrelevant to what we are trying to find, so you shouldn’t have asked it in the poll. Your poll mucks up the results, because some people will inevitably prioritize their desire to keep Upton, ignoring the analysis of value changing hands.

That was point of my comment above. You, as is typical of you when someone calls you out on anything, missed that point, and instead responded with rage and arrogance.

NSJ: “We are trying to determine which color is more popular, green or blue.”

g: “How are you so arrogant as to assume everyone likes green and blue! F—- you NSJ!”

I wouldn’t care if the poll results came back 90% to 10% if you had done the poll properly. It isn’t ego at all on my part. It’s pursuing the knowledge. And we don’t gain any knowledge from the poll because the poll was constructed poorly.

"It’s ideal if your hobby and your living can merge. But you are not going to stop your hobby if you can’t make money out of it. Your hobby is all about trading time for enjoyment. My job is what I do. My hobby is who I am." -Tango

by notsellingjeans on Oct 22, 2010 9:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

I agree with your sentiment in terms of not offering an "I don't want to trade" option

But I’d probably structure it in terms of “Do you think this is enough value in return for X IF a trade were to be made?”

1 Team A is giving up too much
2 That’s about right
3 Team B is giving up too much

Or even better:
1 Team A is giving up way too much
2 Team A is giving up more than they should, but I’d consider it/it’s close
3 That’s about right
4 Team B is giving up more than they should, but I’d consider it/it’s close
5 Team B is giving up way too much

In both cases you’d probably want to direct the A/B thing geared toward your directed audience. But it does a few things. First if it’s too skewed one way or another, you’d know it pretty quickly with 1 or 5 skewing really high. Second, if it skews in the middle you know you’re either pretty close to a good deal and/or where you need to add/subtract a bit of value to even it up. Giving a yes/no response is likely going to skew towards “No” regardless of how close your package is simply because it’s devoid of options. You definitely don’t want to give them an easy cop out of “I’m not trading him for anything” because at the end of the day, everyone has a value and if someone where to offer up the right package.

Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples

Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.

If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.

by DMOAS on Oct 22, 2010 11:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

It's still a problem

I don’t think NSJ’s proposal cures it and I don’t think this one cures it either. People overvalue the players they currently have. That’s just a fact. Just saying “Given that you’re trading player X” doesn’t work. They’re still going to respond with “Wow, I can’t believe we traded player X for that crap” more often than not. There’s no way to gimmick the poll to avoid that.

Personally, I think getting 33% yes votes, however defined, from the Rays blog is actually quite an accomplishment. The proposal probably IS good enough to attract serious attention from their GM if 33% of the fans actually support it.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 23, 2010 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

You made a funny
It’s pursuing the knowledge.

As long as the pursuit is one sided and suits your notions. Yes or No does not create a conversation. Asking “Why” does.

As for things you and I do differently… I don’t blatantly cheat as a means to prove the validity of what I argue or bring up.

And I don’t beg… I suggest.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Oct 22, 2010 11:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

Seriously? Again?

"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."

by lenscrafters on Oct 23, 2010 1:09 AM PDT up reply actions  

Please stop this

You are the only one that continues to bring this example up and it’s getting old. DFA has been a consistently active member of this community for awhile and you aren’t helping yourself with this obvious vendetta against him.
Enough’s enough.

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Oct 23, 2010 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions  

Remember when I said that doing this sort of thing was asinine?

Boy, that was a long time ago.

Wait, no, it was like the day before yesterday.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 23, 2010 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

I admit it... I had to come back and re-read this comment to see if I missed something

Because I have in the past and have regretted it. Sometimes I’ll read something at the top of a comment and it’ll make my head spin; I’ll miss something later in the text that would have better explained their point. And after reading your later comment and DMOAS reply to that comment I see how I could have rephrased the options in my polls to better stimulate discussion on those boards. I don’t think your Yes/No poll would work as you suggest and you’re assuming that the reasoning behind the votes for option #1 was based on an emotional attachment to the player. You have no way of knowing that but I admit, my poll question did leave that door open.

You accused me of responding with rage and arrogance. You were half right. I was pissed that you called bullshit on my comment… like I was making up what the numbers said. You suggested that a website other than Halos Heaven disliked me because I had posted there before. That was one Hell of an assumption. You threw the first shots, I reacted.

At that point, it sounded like you were trying to brush aside the folks at DRays Bay who had voted against the proposal. Your point wasn’t as clear to me as it was in the later comment. Still, I own up to missing where you were going with the original comment.

I’d like to clear up a few more things.

I wasn’t apologizing to you. I was lamenting the opportunities I set aside to start threads on DRays Bay and True Blue. I was angry that I had just gotten sucker punched for trying to help build a case for someone who (for lack of better terms to describe someone I’ve chatted with often online) I considered an ally and cohort. You don’t care about the opinions of “random people”… I don’t see them as random people, I see them as individuals with a vested interest in the topic we were discussing. They are people with an entirely different viewpoint from you or I and in conversing with them one might find insight that could have otherwise been missed.

You want to accuse someone of arrogance? Your approach is limited to the information you can gather and the perceptions that derive from that information. I have no problem with talking to people in an effort to learn more. Especially since I did a whole lot of reading to try and figure out who was reliable and who was a fanboy before I ever asked my questions. The questions I asked in the polls were just the start. The conversations I have in the threads are where the real information is uncovered.

Now I will apologize to you. I’m sorry if I stepped on your toes, that wasn’t my intention. I was trying to pull together information and ideas that would let you refine your proposals for the next time you write. That will not happen again.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Oct 23, 2010 1:17 AM PDT up reply actions  

Donaldson is much more valuable to us than anyone else, IMO

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Oct 21, 2010 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

Why? Isn't he semi-blocked here?

Why would he be worth less to other teams?

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Oct 21, 2010 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

because they don't think like we do

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Oct 21, 2010 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

That's kind of my point though

His numbers don’t look great and his defense isn’t considered amazing, but we know that he could quite possibly be a good hitting catcher. I just don’t think other GMs like him as much as we do.
That being said, it only takes one team willing to give up more than they’re getting in order to make me wrong…

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Oct 21, 2010 6:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

But, what if other scouts think he is mediocre

And he actually is? I’m not sure I’m willing to part with Suzuki and take my chances with him just yet. After all, if Carter needs more AAA seasoning, then Donaldson certainly does too.

!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam

by cuppingmaster on Oct 22, 2010 7:24 AM PDT up reply actions  

If he's mediocre

I’ll take it at this point if trading Suzuki means getting something more valuable in return.
Suzuki’s pretty damn mediocre right now…

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Oct 22, 2010 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

If Boston wanted Suzuki,

I’d want to get Kalish and Kelly in return. Definitely would need both those guys to consider it.

I also am very skeptical that Donaldson is ready to be a full-time major league catcher, and it would be a shame if Donaldson pulling a negative WAR is the reason the team doesn’t make the playoffs next year.

If they traded Zooks I’d want them to sign John Buck to a one or two year deal. With Buck’s power, he would be a Type A free agent if he played every day in his next contract, and he’d still only be 32 at the end of a two-year deal.

"It’s ideal if your hobby and your living can merge. But you are not going to stop your hobby if you can’t make money out of it. Your hobby is all about trading time for enjoyment. My job is what I do. My hobby is who I am." -Tango

by notsellingjeans on Oct 22, 2010 4:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

Interesting

Honestly, there is absolutely no way we’re getting Kelly in a Suzuki deal. He’s there #1 prospect, and even though he struggled a bit this year, he’s got the upside of a #1.
I dunno about the rest of their system though…

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Oct 22, 2010 6:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

What's the deal with Ellsbury coming back next year?

I have a hard time believing that the Sux would move Kalish if Ellsbury will be gone any significant amount of time.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Oct 22, 2010 8:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

He's probably going to bust a few more ribs or something in ST

I definitely can’t see them dealing Kalish.

!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam

by cuppingmaster on Oct 23, 2010 1:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

Kalish isn

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Oct 23, 2010 10:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

Kalish isn't the only OF option though

If Kalish is untouchable, I’d like to see if they’d include Josh Reddick in a deal.
He’s a guy who didn’t have a great year last year but had some bad luck and could potentially be a pretty solid bat along the lines of Kalish.

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Oct 23, 2010 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

That's not the kind of return that I'd be looking for though.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Oct 23, 2010 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

Me neither

I meant as a complimentary piece in a package, not the headliner.
IF Kelly or another top prospect were made available in a Suzuki deal, I think Reddick would be an interesting project to keep in AAA for a year and try and work on plate discipline…

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Oct 23, 2010 5:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

Really like Kalish, not that into Reddick

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Oct 23, 2010 10:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

Too hacktacular

Very Nate Schierholtz-esque. I’m trying to wean myself off of my irrational addiction to corner outfielders with power but no plate discipline. (Oh, Wladimir Balentien. Why can’t I quit you?)

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 23, 2010 10:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yep, Kalish is way less busty

More diverse skillset.

"It’s ideal if your hobby and your living can merge. But you are not going to stop your hobby if you can’t make money out of it. Your hobby is all about trading time for enjoyment. My job is what I do. My hobby is who I am." -Tango

by notsellingjeans on Oct 24, 2010 9:04 AM PDT up reply actions  

I definitely agree

I way prefer Kalish over Reddick, but if we were to make a deal and Kalish was not possible, but we were able to get another valuable piece, I really think Reddick would be an interesting project as an extra player in the deal.
Yeah, that walk rate is bad, but I don’t think it’s always hopeless…

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Oct 24, 2010 9:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

we have the upper hand in any potential deal with them

They REALLY need a catcher, we have a cost-controlled one, and we maybe have a replacement in AAA. We should ask for the moon if we can get even the Sea of Tranquility.

I’d rather deal them Donaldson for someone and wait for Stassi as Suzuki’s eventual replacement.

!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam

by cuppingmaster on Oct 23, 2010 1:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

There are plenty of other Catching options though

I wouldn’t think they’d be interested in Donaldson, as they want someone with a proven MLB track record.

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Oct 23, 2010 10:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

Fair

I guess I was referring more to dealing Donaldson to anyone and keeping Suzuki around. Given his contract length, it’s easy to see that the team might think this, too.

!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam

by cuppingmaster on Oct 23, 2010 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

I can't decide if that's praise or criticism of our way of thinking.

What does a mama bear on the pill have in common with the World Series? No cubs. ~Harry Caray

by UncleLeo on Oct 22, 2010 7:57 AM PDT up reply actions  

not enough for kemp

"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball

by flipgatey3 on Oct 21, 2010 5:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

It would be interesting

To compare this projected 2011 lineup to a “projected 2011” lineup that was posted on AN in 2005 after the Mulder and Hudson trades. I remember that people had the A’s pegged as world champions by as early as 2009 in those scenarios. I think the only player predicted back then to be on the current roster was Barton and he was supposed to be the second coming of Ted Williams…

"I Will Not Relent, I Am Driven"... Clutch
Bring Back The Bash!!!

by Shippee33 on Oct 23, 2010 9:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

Bailey and Green for Upton?

Upton’s solid defensively, I know, but he’s struggled terribly with the bat over the past two seasons. Beane’s not going to like a potential .313 OBP (that’s Terrence Long territory), especially when Zooks and Kouz, with similarly low on-base percentages are hitting behind him.

No doubt Upton is due for a resurgence, but I think that’s a little too much of a risk, especially considering we’d give up Green and Bailey for him.

These clothes are good enough to drink in, and so be these boots, too.

by Leap Year on Oct 25, 2010 6:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

Oops

Just read the posts above about Rays Fans’ opinion on the trade. Anyway, speaking objectively as best I can, I don’t think the A’s would make that trade.

These clothes are good enough to drink in, and so be these boots, too.

by Leap Year on Oct 25, 2010 7:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't know

I’d give that outfield a “C”

"Good thing you can't hit, otherwise everybody would hate you"
– H.J.S., my ex coach (while drunkenly talking to me during a team visit to a strip joint)

by elcroata on Oct 21, 2010 8:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

Hmmm...

Choo bumps it up to a B himself alone for me.
I covet that mofo like none other…

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Oct 21, 2010 9:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

That was actually an attempt

to make an alphabet joke. I’m a big fan of Choo, myself.

"Good thing you can't hit, otherwise everybody would hate you"
– H.J.S., my ex coach (while drunkenly talking to me during a team visit to a strip joint)

by elcroata on Oct 21, 2010 10:37 AM PDT up reply actions  

Wow, I'm slow

Didn’t notice the blatant quotation marks around the ""C"".

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Oct 21, 2010 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions  

The alphabet joke works better with Crawford.

Then you have first and last name for all three.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Oct 21, 2010 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

Maybe hiring Skinner will lure Choo here

/unwarranted optimism

!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam

by cuppingmaster on Oct 21, 2010 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

fire beane for starter

do you know where a’s would be if they had carlos gonzalez, ethier, swisher, ludwick, pena and more that beane gave away for nothing? the guy is bored and has outlived his time or isn’t such a genius as people thought…

as for next year, I think despite lots of money being available, there’s no way Werth or Crawford would choose the A’s

I’d consider Uggla and either Konerko or Ordonez, that would be a start
plus a trade of some young pitching to Toronto for one of their better power hitters (LIND)?

and sorry, for POWER positions, Barton, Kouz and Sweeney were absolutely rotten, way below MLB average – so don’t stick with any of them if better options are there

by kissmya's on Oct 21, 2010 9:45 AM PDT reply actions  

Oh brother....

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Oct 21, 2010 9:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

It's especially funny because we traded Ludwick for ...

Carlos Peña!

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Oct 21, 2010 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

great catch.

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Oct 21, 2010 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

The Yankees may end up with a wing of the Hall of Fame

consisting entirely of such players from the ’80’s and early ’90’s.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Oct 21, 2010 11:03 AM PDT up reply actions  

Please go back to posting on Yahoo Sports

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 21, 2010 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

Ok, that was funny.

What does a mama bear on the pill have in common with the World Series? No cubs. ~Harry Caray

by UncleLeo on Oct 21, 2010 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

.

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Oct 21, 2010 11:46 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

That's better than "McLovin"

What does a mama bear on the pill have in common with the World Series? No cubs. ~Harry Caray

by UncleLeo on Oct 21, 2010 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

For all you know he could be a conjoined twin!

Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples

Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.

If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.

by DMOAS on Oct 21, 2010 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Dogpile.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Oct 21, 2010 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

Pena was released three times before he broke out - the rest of the league should hang its head in shame for missing out on him too.

Surprised you didn’t mention Nelson Cruz who was traded three times and was waived by the Rangers and passed on by every single major league team before he finally broke out with Texas.

by DeJay on Oct 21, 2010 4:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

That being said

Outside of 2007 and 2008, he’s been pretty much league average or worse…

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Oct 21, 2010 6:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not to mention the whole Ryan Goleski debacle

You think Cruz and Hamilton in the OF would have the A’s on the verge of the WS?

"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton

by vignette17 on Oct 21, 2010 11:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hamilton was never considered by the A's and was a massive gamble by the Reds that paid off

Apparently the A’s were deciding between Goleski and Soria which isn’t much better, especially as we probably would have cashed him in for Montero by now.

Oh well…

by DeJay on Oct 22, 2010 4:48 AM PDT up reply actions  

Agreed

The A’s weren’t aware the Goleski was injured but that seems to speak for itself. Alot of people thought that Soria was who they were trading up to get.

by DeJay on Oct 22, 2010 8:43 AM PDT up reply actions  

How is a Rule V pick a massive gamble?!?

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Oct 22, 2010 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yes, but it's $50,000 of a $70M payrol

On a team that wasn’t going anywhere that year.

That’s in no way a massive gamble, and there are plenty worse Rule V picks every single year.

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Oct 22, 2010 6:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

A lottery ticket will only cost you a couple of dollars but the chances of it paying out are still miniscule

I don’t blame the A’s for not taking a chance on Hamilton. They should have picked Soria though.

by DeJay on Oct 23, 2010 10:57 AM PDT up reply actions  

nice troll

"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball

by flipgatey3 on Oct 22, 2010 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

Kubel's got a cheap club option BTW

So he’s probably not gonna even get to FA yet….
Otherwise, I see a lot of your predictions happening.
However, I really don’t see Kuroda leaving the MLB, he’s gonna get a good enough offer that he’ll stay…

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Oct 21, 2010 9:56 AM PDT reply actions  

I'm secretly hoping the slegnA are willing to trade Nap

Seeing as Scoscia refuses to play him, and Morales is on track for a full recovery…

!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam

by cuppingmaster on Oct 21, 2010 10:20 AM PDT reply actions  

I'm hearing it's pretty much inevitable

From someone inside the organization…
They view Conger as heir apparent, and think he’s ready next year…

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Oct 21, 2010 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

oooooh you have contacts?

anything else you’d like to spill

!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam

by cuppingmaster on Oct 21, 2010 10:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

That he's an absolute headcase to deal with

They have to have PR guys around him all the time because of some of his antics…

Other than that, my friend isn’t really high up but he’s been with the organization for a good while now. He mostly deals firsthand with the players.
The other stuff is mostly stuff we already know; Torii’s the coolest guy around, Shields can’t keep off the booze, etc, etc..

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Oct 21, 2010 10:48 AM PDT up reply actions  

Wait, Mike Napoli?

He’s a head case?

How has this not leaked into the media? I’ve never heard thing one about him being a bad dude.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 21, 2010 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

Not necessarily stuff with the team

And most of this has been kept quiet because the Angels do have very good PR guys…

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Oct 21, 2010 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

He's not on the Yankees or Red Sox

A's Fan in Sweden

"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime

by travdog6 on Oct 21, 2010 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

well there is deadspin

bonus pat the bat coverage

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes

by Future Ed on Oct 21, 2010 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

I have a Pat Burrell story that my buddy told me last week

That will beat this all to hell.
I’ll share it maybe on the DLD or something soon, it’s pretty ridiculous…

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Oct 21, 2010 6:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

This is great stuff, NSJ.

And I’d be happy to take a look at de la Rosa.

by danmerqury on Oct 21, 2010 10:30 AM PDT reply actions  

I'm torn

Quality work as always NSJ… but you really cheated on De La Rosa!

Tell ya what I’m going to do. I’ve already got membership at True Blue and DRaysBay. I’ll float your trade proposals to each site and lets see how much gnashing of teeth they receive. I think you’re light on both, especially since you’d have competition to land the players.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Oct 21, 2010 12:39 PM PDT reply actions  

Manny Ramirez

Hi everyone, long time reader, first time poster.

It seems like Manny Ramirez is almost the perfect A’s signing given their recent history. He’s a retread vet with some attitude problems, health issues and a history of a big bat coming off a down year. Nothing says Oakland Athletic like that resume. If the A’s fail in their attempts at landing a top-tier COF, I think they may turn to Manny Ramirez as a plan B or C.

If the A’s offered him a part or full time role in LF (depending on health), I think that would be enough to entice him to Oakland. From what I gather about him, he’s too proud a player to accept forced DH time and a big contract decrease at the same time (both of which most teams who might be interested would likely insist on), so the chance to play LF could be enough to make Oakland his top choice. It would also have the added benefit of giving Chris Carter a bit more seasoning time in AAA.

He only posted a 1.3 WAR last year (according to baseball-reference), with a 2.0 oWAR and -0.7 dWAR, but the year before that was a 3.0 WAR player (3.7 oWAR, -0.7 dWAR), and two year ago he put up 6.2 WAR (5.8 oWAR, 0.4 dWAR). He won’t put up 6.2 WAR again, but a return to 3.0 WAR wouldn’t be beyond the realm of possibility.

If the A’s fail in acquiring some of their other COF options, I could see them turning to Manny Ramirez (assuming the White Sox don’t just resign him to be their DH, although what I’ve read suggests otherwise).

by UrgentMirth on Oct 21, 2010 1:33 PM PDT reply actions  

Now PL78 feels less lonely.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Oct 21, 2010 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

Landon Powell, by all appearances, sucks

I’m sure he was a hell of a ballplayer five years ago, but right now he’s pretty much a nonfactor. Whether that’s because of all the injuries or just because he’s over the hill, I don’t know.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 21, 2010 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hmmm...

I feel like I’ve seen this somewhere before

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Oct 21, 2010 6:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yay for randomly putting comments wherever the hell!

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 21, 2010 10:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm sure people said the exact same thing about Frank Thomas

And that worked out OK. (Also with Giambi and Nomar, and those certainly didn’t). I’m not saying it’d be the greatest move in A’s history, I’m just saying I could see it happening. Hell, I’m not sure if I’d applaud the move, it just seems to fit in with the A’s we’ve seen in the past 5 years.

by UrgentMirth on Oct 21, 2010 7:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

Um you are aware that Frank Thomas was a hall of fame quality hitter for 15 years before the A's got to him right?

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Oct 21, 2010 9:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

And Ramirez, leaving out last year, isn't?

"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins

by justANotherAsFan on Oct 22, 2010 9:00 AM PDT up reply actions  

the dude's comment was a reply to a landon powell comment if he was talking about ramirez its a reply fail

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Oct 22, 2010 9:47 AM PDT up reply actions  

The reply fail was actually the Powell comment as PT admits above

For some reason, this little subthread amuses me:

Person 1: We should pick up Manny.
Person 2: Powell sucks.
Person 3: Buy Manny could be OK!
Person 4: Frank Thomas was a HOFer!

"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton

by vignette17 on Oct 22, 2010 10:33 AM PDT up reply actions  

Following the trend,

Manny wouldn’t be good!

A's Fan in Sweden

"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime

by travdog6 on Oct 22, 2010 10:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

And if my pattern detection skills are as fantastic as good as I think they are,

the next comment should be about a gigantic man of Latino descent.

A's Fan in Sweden

"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime

by travdog6 on Oct 22, 2010 10:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

Somewhere around the ninth comment

there will be a comparison to a certain German dictator from the middle of the 20th century.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Oct 22, 2010 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

Erich Honecker?

What does a mama bear on the pill have in common with the World Series? No cubs. ~Harry Caray

by UncleLeo on Oct 22, 2010 9:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

middle

Contrary to popular belief, the 20th century did not begin in 1960.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Oct 23, 2010 12:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

1920 to 1980 is 'middle'.

What does a mama bear on the pill have in common with the World Series? No cubs. ~Harry Caray

by UncleLeo on Oct 23, 2010 8:28 AM PDT up reply actions  

And still omits half of Honecker's career.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Oct 23, 2010 9:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

FWIW... I like cheesecake.

What does a mama bear on the pill have in common with the World Series? No cubs. ~Harry Caray

by UncleLeo on Oct 22, 2010 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

Less a reply fail and more of an SBN technical fail

but yes.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 22, 2010 2:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

PT's reply was to my Manny post

So I assumed he was just copy-pasting a comment he made earlier because he thought it applied equally to Manny Ramirez. I responded under the assumption that he wasn’t just randomly pasting comments throughout the thread.

by UrgentMirth on Oct 22, 2010 12:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

If Manny's unsigned as ST approaches, I'd consider him

At that point, he might be willing to sign an incentive-laden 1 year deal.

The same applies to Derrek Lee.

by ozzman99 on Oct 22, 2010 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

I agree

They shouldn’t be high up on the Want list, but if they’re available later in the offseason and it seems like a good enough fit, it’d be stupid not to consider it…

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Oct 22, 2010 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

I was all about Manny until Carter started mashing

If the team wants to pick Manny over Cust I wont be mad. Manny is my fave player but I think the emergence of Carter is the sign that the team has no room for Manny.

by PL78 on Oct 23, 2010 9:03 AM PDT up reply actions  

Tier 2/3 FA's

I may get scorched for these names, but howzzabout:

A Soriano – Cubs. I know, horrible contract, but the dude can hit.

L Berkstrom – NYY. Former All Star, Triple Crown contestant. Comeback bat?

M Ordonez – Det. Anything left in tank?

R Staub – Montreal. Ooops. Going back too far.

M Ramirez…hmmm….doubt if low lights of Oakland would suit his style, but a true hitter…

by Slip n Slide on Oct 21, 2010 1:37 PM PDT reply actions  

ummmmm.........this made me laugh

Soriano- Not a FA
L Berkstrom?- Never heard of him.

Ordonez- Yes please.

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Oct 21, 2010 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

lol
L Berkstrom

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones."
-BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Oct 21, 2010 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

Don't the Yankees need a catcher too?

Isn’t Posada like 59 years old or something? How about sending them Donaldson, Bailey and some starting pitcher not named Brett, Gio, or Trevor for a chance at getting Swisher back? He just doesn’t look right in pinstripes

by petitceebee on Oct 21, 2010 2:14 PM PDT reply actions  

Have they given up on Jesus Montero as a catcher?

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Oct 21, 2010 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

they have a ton of catching talent in the system.

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Oct 21, 2010 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

NSJ

You might want to float your trade scenario’s over at Minorleagueball. Get some non-biased 3rd party opinions on the matter.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Oct 21, 2010 5:37 PM PDT reply actions  

+1

Agree.
There are a couple posters over there who give pretty good opinions on prospects

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Oct 21, 2010 6:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ok, I hope this is original content

And I apologize if it isn’t. I’ve been thinking alot about the A’s protected 1st round pick, and the fact that they have a hard time attracting free agents. The lead me to wonder if there was some other way to capitalize on having that protected pick. Here’s what I came up with.

If the A’s end up in a situation where Crawford/Werth spurn their advances, what about trying to work out a deal with the player and a team with an unprotected pick whereby the A’s sign the player and then trade him? For example, what if the A’s signed Crawford and then dealt him to Atlanta?

The obvious question here is, what players are worth less than a late 1st round draft pick? Because other teams will ask themselves who they’d rather have: the player they’d have to give up, or the player they could potentially draft. The next question becomes, are those players worth going through the trouble? From the A’s point of view, they probably are. In this scenario, the A’s aren’t really giving up anything, so something is better than nothing. The next question to ask is would the A’s be willing to add other players to package in order to land more desirable players in return? Alternatively, would the A’s be willing to take on a bad contract if that player is packaged with a good player?

I don’t have answers, just an idea that needs comments and criticisms. I think there may be some potential here, but greater minds than my own need to consider the problems. So I turn to you, AN. What do you think?

by ozzman99 on Oct 22, 2010 11:32 AM PDT reply actions  

6 Months

You need to wait 6 months before you can trade a player you signed (I think)

by Colorado Fan on Oct 22, 2010 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

You'd just need the player's permission.

Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples

Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.

If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.

by DMOAS on Oct 22, 2010 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

They can be traded with their consent

but they cant be traded before June 15th if they don’t consent.

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Oct 22, 2010 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

Draft picks can't be traded until a year after signing

and there’s no consent factor involved, IIRC.

They can be identified as PTBNL after 6 months (since PTBNL must be revealed and exchanged within 6 months) and not technically exchanged after the year grace period has passed

The A’s couldn’t trade Michael Choice this offseason if they wanted to, since Choice signed in July), and there’s more than 6 months till July 2011.

by Blicks on Oct 22, 2010 12:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

Thanks for the clarification

I was pretty sure draft picks didn’t have to give consent to be traded, but I was confused about how long it was after they signed that they could be traded.

When you say Choice can’t be traded this offseason, though… couldn’t he be traded from January on (the exact date in January depending on the exact date he signed)?

by ozzman99 on Oct 22, 2010 12:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yes, you're right, he could be traded in January

July 28 was his signing date, so he could be named as a PTBNL after January 28.

Example of this is Tyler Skaggs, who was an ‘09 draftee traded in the Haren 2 deal—-the Angels and DBacks couldn’t officially exchange the player until after he met the 1 year requirement.

by Blicks on Oct 22, 2010 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

This is fairly common, isn't it?

Wasn’t it also the case when Bonderman was traded to Detroit?

by ozzman99 on Oct 22, 2010 12:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

the trade would have to be approved by the commissioner's office wouldn't it?

the braves would not give the A’s value for crawford, which I think would raise red flags. I would expect there is some sort of grievance that could be filed and won by other teams for that.

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes

by Future Ed on Oct 22, 2010 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hmm, good point

This idea certainly violates the spirit of the rules. Whether or not it violates the actually letter of the rules, I don’t know.

by ozzman99 on Oct 22, 2010 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

There is a general pattern in MLB rules

whereby almost everything has an escape clause that it can be voided by the commissioner or allowed by special permission of the commissioner. This effectively means that anything that is too blatantly in violation of the spirit of the rule will be in violation of the letter, too, if the commissioner cares enough to step in and say so.

The question, then, is whether MLB will choose to let it slide and allow the system to get eroded by teams finding clever ways to get around the rules, or if they’ll stick up for it and step in to put a stop to it. I could see that going either way.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Oct 22, 2010 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

They will put a stop to it

Free agent compensation is an expendable bargaining chip in the negotiations for the next CBA. The owners will want to trade it off for some other small concession. If they allow it to erode completely, the union won’t be willing to give up anything in return.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 22, 2010 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

But free agent compensation isn't what's being compromised

in the example here. What is being compromised is the balancing mechanism whereby a top-half team has to give up a draft pick in order to sign a free agent while a bottom-half team does not.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.

by iglew on Oct 22, 2010 4:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

Nah, I think PT has it right

There have been players two years straight who seen their compensation go down because teams didn’t think they were worth full value based on losing the draft pick. Yes, it definitely effects the top-half team giving up the pick part, but it’s really the players value that’s most effected. Unless you’re thinking that even using this method the they won’t receive the same value as they would without having to jump through this hoop, but you’d probably have to pay the player something to wave there no trade rights.

Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples

Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.

If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.

by DMOAS on Oct 22, 2010 4:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

What are you talking about?

The goal of FA compensation is to repress the prices of free agents. Allowing top 15 teams to game the system to essentially pay normal-price-minus-second-round-pick instead of normal-price-minus-first-round-pick obviously means that their offers will be closer to normal price.

This is NOT a balancing mechanism. The goal is to lower the prices of free agents.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 23, 2010 4:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

Any player worth less than just a late-first-round draft pick is not worth having on a playoff contender

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 22, 2010 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

That's why it can't be a 1-for-1 trade

In the Braves example, if the A’s dealt Crawford, Mazzaro, and H. Rodriguez for say, Mike Minor (whether or not that trade would ever happen is another discussion), it would improve both teams at a position of weakness. Timing would matter too. If they signed Crawford in December, but didn’t make the trade until a couple of weeks before ST, the league would have a harder time arguing that they were trying to circumvent the FA compensation rules.

by ozzman99 on Oct 22, 2010 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

Here's an offshoot question:

Does anyone else here think the A’s will nontender Cust again and make Carter the DH on opening day?

I think that is happening. Unless Carter can miraculously turn into a league average defender in LF over winter ball, I can see him as the DH next year, and Beane getting a LF.

by PL78 on Oct 23, 2010 9:05 AM PDT reply actions  

I sure hope not.

I don’t think we can officially count on Carter to be better than Cust with the bat yet, plus that would be the end of any attempt at putting him in left.

A's Fan in Sweden

"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime

by travdog6 on Oct 23, 2010 9:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

This.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Oct 23, 2010 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

This X2

If Beane were to nontender him, when he was worth $9M+ on the open market while still missing over a month in the bigs, my faith in him would be all but gone.

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Oct 23, 2010 10:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

he's NOT worth that, though

The market for him is zip as evidenced last year, and I bet even more so with a career low in HRs. Like it or not, I bet no one cares as much about his wOBA as we do.

!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam

by cuppingmaster on Oct 23, 2010 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

I really wish people would stop using that as some type of evidence of Cust's value.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Oct 23, 2010 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

his value by WAR is indeed $9M

But if no one wants to pay him that, it doesn’t matter. In other words, irrational market.

!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam

by cuppingmaster on Oct 23, 2010 12:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

value by WAR doesn't correlate to actual contract value though.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Oct 23, 2010 12:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

strana suggested $9M on the open market

i.e., contract value. I don’t care what he’s worth in money. I care about his wOBA and to a lesser extent, the fact he says he wants to be a multi-facteted player (which actually makes him a worse player)

!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam

by cuppingmaster on Oct 23, 2010 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

My bad

I didn’t mean to suggest he would get $9M, I meant it by WAR standards.
And if he were to cost ~$5M next year but we don’t tender him a contract and instead sign someone like Dunn for $10M+/year, then that would be a terrible way to spend the money for something like maybe a 1 WAR upgrade when there are other areas that we could make that improvement for cheaper…

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Oct 23, 2010 5:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

$ value by WAR isnt a real world thing

Cust isnt getting more than $4MM this offseason. I dont see Thome getting more than that either.

by PL78 on Oct 23, 2010 1:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

Like promoting a totally unready Cahill and Anderson to the majors and pointlessly blowing not one but TWO years of their service time

Let’s face it, lately the team has not exactly behaved intelligently with respect to handing rookies jobs on a platter.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 23, 2010 12:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah, but this would be worse though, IMO

If PL’s prophecy comes true and Cust is non-tendered in favor as Carter as Opening-Day DH, we might as well be GM’d by Omar Minaya at that point.

I’m probably a bigger apologist for the A’s braintrust than anybody on this blog. Even with the Anderson/Cahill service time thing, you could make the TINSTAAPP argument and say that they want to get 6+ healthy seasons out of them, and you never know when a pitcher’s arm will fall off. And there weren’t five alternative high-upside SPs in the rotation when those guys were brought up.

This situation would be worse, for those two reasons: Carter has a much smaller risk of debilitating injury toiling in the minor leagues than a pitcher does, his peak is likely to be slightly later than a pitcher’s is, and – most importantly – the team has a clearly better alternative in-house (Cust) at the same position.

The A’s didn’t clearly have a better in-house alternative at No. 5 starter when Anderson and Cahill were anointed.

"It’s ideal if your hobby and your living can merge. But you are not going to stop your hobby if you can’t make money out of it. Your hobby is all about trading time for enjoyment. My job is what I do. My hobby is who I am." -Tango

by notsellingjeans on Oct 23, 2010 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

Agreed.

The Cahill/Anderson service time thing was bad, but at least somewhat remotely defensible. Playing Carter over Cust? There’s, quite literally, no rational argument for it. None.

by danmerqury on Oct 23, 2010 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well it wouldnt be playing him over him

Cust would be in another uniform by then. Its putting Werth or Crawford or some good defensive LF on the team and replacing Cust with him.

by PL78 on Oct 23, 2010 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

It still doesn't make sense

If you get Crawford or Werth, you send Carter back to Sac. and keep Cust as a DH. Unless you want to lose more games.

by ozzman99 on Oct 23, 2010 7:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not to nitpick

But i think keeping Anderson up was defensible. Cahill, OTOH, had no business finishing up last year in the bigs…

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Oct 23, 2010 5:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

Edgar Gonzalez was a better in-house alternative than those guys

and there were probably 10 better out-of-house, but freely available, alternatives too.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 23, 2010 4:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

Better in what way?

Performance wise, Anderson proved himself the better pitcher in ’09. We could argue EG vs. Cahill… which is essentially a point in your favor on that one.

The push to win in 2009 was a bad gamble from the start. I realize the impact the early promotions carry on the long term, but that does not change the fact that Anderson was a better option than EG for a team trying to win in 2009.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Oct 23, 2010 4:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

Meh

There had to be some journeyman 5th starter that the team could have carried for the half of the season when Anderson was pitching like a journeyman 5th starter instead. Kip Wells or Todd Wellemeyer or some other guy with a name starting with Well or something.

I’ll concede that the A’s should probably have brought up Anderson in late 2009 anyway, so they only “lost” one year of him (which they ended up buying back, but for more dollars), but Cahill should never have sniffed the majors last year and likely should not have come up until some time into this season.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 23, 2010 10:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yes.

It would be a stupid idea but I can see A’s management doing this.

"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."

by lenscrafters on Oct 23, 2010 12:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

I do not agree with it either, FWIW

But it would be replacing Cust with a legit LF like Werth or Crawford. Would you rather Cust & Carter or Carter & Werth?

by PL78 on Oct 23, 2010 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

Why can't it be Cust and Werth with Carter in AAA to begin the year?

"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."

by lenscrafters on Oct 23, 2010 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

It can even be all 3

In my mind, the only starting OF spot that should even be considered guaranteed is Crisp, and that is still a little iffy depending on health…

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Oct 23, 2010 5:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

Does anyone know Werth's stance on playing RF?

I seem to remember Crawford being fairly adamant about wanting to stay in left, but I’m not sure about Werth.

by UrgentMirth on Oct 25, 2010 8:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ah, yep

Just remembered he plays RF, so hopefully he’d be ok with it…

by UrgentMirth on Oct 25, 2010 9:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

Off-Topic

Am I the only one here who plays MLB 10:The Show?

by Oakland All-Star on Oct 25, 2010 11:10 AM PDT reply actions  

Yes.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor
Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Oct 25, 2010 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the SB Nation blog about Oakland Athletics.

Community Guidelines ANcillary Terms

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Small
A's relocation option from a legal expert on the issue
Oakland_athletics_team_logo_photofile_small
Prospects 1Q Report

Recent FanPosts

Small
GOG 2012 #18: The Twins have a shiny new park, and not much else
Small
Gotta Be Their Pitching
Hardly-boys_small
Minor League notes on Major League Day Off
Small
Cespedes Upate?
Small
The SF Warriors, the LA Raiders and the Oakland A's
Photo__11__small
COG #17 - Yankees vs. Athletics or Spank me! Spank me!
100_1536_small
What to do? What to do?
Small
Fans Should Buy the A's
Reg3_small
Tom Milone's Nickname

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

Yahoo_full_count

Front Page Writers

Maya_papi_small Tyler Bleszinski

08-_the_author_small 67MARQUEZ

Baseball_small baseballgirl

Poochini-butt_in_box_2_small Nico

Img_1877_small Billy Frijoles

Img_0653_small dwishinsky

Sb_nation1_small ahhall

Front Page Writers

Smiley_face_small gigglingone

Venasfans_small OaklandSi

60-minutes-clock_small cuppingmaster

Patpicturebucky2_small YonYonson

Img_3830_small David Fung

Moderators

Photofunia-5c770b_small coffee roaster

Denver_small Colorado Fan

Ls_logo100_small LoneStranger

Thumbs_up_small LongTimeFan

Marty_profile_in_green_small mrod

Babycomputergeek_small paris7

Img_0115_small Tutu-late