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BP's Best And Worst GM's of the Decade: Where's Beane?

It seems that perhaps Billy Beane's magic touch has suffered slightly since the 2006 season (well, perhaps up until yesterday's signing of Ben Sheets--see Blez' article here), but is that enough to discount the rest of the decade? How does Beane measure up with other GM's? Can he be in the running for first place without a World Series title? I thought this Baseball Prospectus article did a nice job of explaining what they have dubbed PER--Payroll Efficiency Rating--which allows GM's to be ranked statistically in their own right, over the course of the decade.

For me, this is a lot of fun, but as a refresher, here's how these rankings are calculated. First, we find each team's expected revenue, based on their third-order winning percentage, and how big their market is. Then, you divide that by what each team's marginal revenue should have been, had they won exactly as many games as their payroll would have predicted. (Draft pick value is also factored in, so the worst teams get slightly more credit than the vanilla mediocre teams.) The end result is PER—Payroll Efficiency Rating—which tells us how well each team spent their payroll dollars.

To run through a quick example, the Rockies spent $75 million on payroll last year, a bit below average. That should have led to around 79 wins, which, given their local market, would have created around $41 million in marginal revenue. But the Rockies actually had 90 third-order wins, which likely created somewhere around $58 million. Divide the two, and you get a 1.43 PER. Since 1.00 is average, we can say the Rockies' front office performed 43 percent better than average in 2009.

With a few exceptions, the software basically confirms what we already think; if you were to list the best and worst GM's of the 2000's off the top of your head, chances are you would come close to the rankings. As Shawn Hoffman states in the article; most of the GM's would have made your list whether you were "objective, subjective, or otherwise".

So, who would you rank as the best and worst GM's of the decade?

Star-divide

If you are a BP subscriber, you will see the entire list of PER rankings (and individual year rankings, as well). I'm giving the top three and the bottom three for discussion, with a quick caveat that the fourth worst GM on this list is Brian Cashman, who had a lot of decisions made out of his hands. BP explains this odd ranking:

The only name that doesn't fit here is Cashman. The Yankees made a lot of mistakes this past decade, and it's not totally clear which of those were his and which were George Steinbrenner's. But it's pretty easy to look at that list and pick the one that doesn't go with all the others. We'll probably have to wait another five years to really judge him on his merits, but there's already been significant progress -- the Yankees are spending much less now than they did earlier in the decade (after you adjust for baseball inflation), and they just fielded their best team since 1998.

Let's get on with it: Who makes the cuts?

Worst:

3) Syd Thrift - Baltimore Orioles (2000-2002) - Thrift returned to baseball in 1999 (he was the GM of the Pirates in the 80's and I believe he also scouted for the A's) to become the GM of the Orioles, and things did not go well for the Birds. From Syd Thrift's Reign of Error: "He oversaw the franchise further descent into absolute suckitude."

2) Bill Bavasi - Seattle Mariners (2004-2008) - Bavasi was at the helm of one of the A's AL West rivals during two of the A's playoff runs in the 2000's. He is credited with the following: "At mid year of the 2008 season, Bavasi could have been the first general manager in the history of the MLB to have a 100 loss season with a 100 million dollar payroll, which was unprecedented in not only MLB, but sports history."

1) Steve Phillips - NY Mets (2000-2003) - In addition to his very public off-field exploits, which have currently derailed his baseball career, Phillips is best known for "acquiring aging and ineffective players with large contracts" during his stint as the Mets' GM.

Best:

3) Pat Gillick - Seattle Mariners (2000-2003), Philadelphia Phillies (2006-2008) - Gillick, who also managed successful Blue Jays teams in the 80's and early 90's, and led the Orioles to two playoff spots in the late 90's, has the unique distinction of GM'ing two other teams in the last decade. He led the Mariners to the first back-to-back postseason appearances in club history in 2000-01 (and also traded Ken Griffey, Jr.), and most recently led the Phillies to their 2008 World Series win. Not a bad resume, all in all.


2) Andrew Friedman - Tampa Bay Rays (2006-2009) - Friedman all but singlehandedly turned a club with eight losing seasons in its first eight years into a force to be reckoned with in the powerhouse AL East. (And if you want to feel old? Friedman is one month younger than yours truly.)

Now, believe it or not, the GM with the highest PER ranking of the last decade is none other than...


1)  Billy Beane - Oakland Athletics (2000-09) - Beane took over the Oakland A's after a payroll cut, and crafted team after successful team; sending the A's to the playoffs almost every year during the first half of the decade. Much of the weight of this ranking obviously rests on 2000-2003; Beane won the individual PER ranking in all of these years.

It will be interesting to reevaluate Beane's performance with the A's after all has been said and done. If you write off 2007-2009 as "rebuilding", and look at 2010 as a chance to at least get the team back to .500 (and I think the pitching is definitely there), who knows what 2011-2012 has in store for Beane and the A's?

So let's hear it! Do you agree with the rankings? Would you trade GM's, if you could? What do you wish Beane had done differently during the decade? What was his best move? Do you think the A's are building up to be a strong AL West contender in the future?

And...hi, Ben Sheets! You can join Duchscherer in this little bubble we have made for you here.

Poll
Do you agree with Beane's ranking?
Yes
531 votes
No
148 votes

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Comments

Display:

What About the Twins GM's?

They have had low payroll and relative success the past decade.

You can change your job, you can change your wife, you can even change your gender, but you can never change your club.
Win or lose, we will always be here for you.
Fear no foe, wherever we go.

by johnjahafanclub on Jan 27, 2010 9:00 AM PST reply actions  

Ryan did pretty well in the rankings too.

Subscribe and find out exactly how well!

But baseball! Fuck yeah! -- lynnzgal

by WaddellCanseco on Jan 27, 2010 9:12 AM PST up reply actions  

I always think back on the Beane -> Boston deal that fell through

It’s an interesting thought experiment. I don’t think it would have been that different with DePo at the helm the last 5-6 years, but it’s impossible to know. That said, it sure would be nice to have Kevin Youkilis…

"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton

by vignette17 on Jan 27, 2010 9:08 AM PST reply actions  

Beane is a much better media communicator than DePodesta

And he’s probably a better leader and office politician. DePodesta didn’t exactly have the greatest support in his own office in LA. Even Colletti’s lasted longer than him. That said, I’m kind of surprised no one else has taken a chance on DePodesta.

But baseball! Fuck yeah! -- lynnzgal

by WaddellCanseco on Jan 27, 2010 9:15 AM PST up reply actions  

I think it's more that DePodesta hasn't taken a chance (or wanted to take a chance) on anyone else

He’s nicely ensconced where he is. Why mess with success?

Shawn Spencer: "I’m receiving a transmission from your husband. Really more of a voicemail, if I'm being honest. A status update. Perhaps a twitter."
Burton Guster: "I believe it’s called a tweet."
Shawn Spencer: "There’s no way I’m saying that."

by PaulThomas on Jan 27, 2010 2:39 PM PST up reply actions  

DePodesta ran full tilt

into the traditional MLB train of thought, headed up by no less an authority than Tommy LaSorda. He should never have taken the Dodgers gig.

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Jan 31, 2010 8:55 AM PST up reply actions  

Youk probably would have long since been traded for prospects.

What are we at the park for except to win? I'd trip my mother. I'd help her up, brusher her off, tell her I'm sorry. But mother don't make it to third. ~Leo Durocher

by UncleLeo on Jan 27, 2010 9:45 AM PST up reply actions  

Kinda hard to argue with those Top 3 and Bottom 3 names.

I’d like to see an argument from a “NO” voter, who they’d rather have than Beane.

But baseball! Fuck yeah! -- lynnzgal

by WaddellCanseco on Jan 27, 2010 9:18 AM PST reply actions  

Me too...

I’m really curious

"Bobby Crosby at third is a bit of an adventure. And not like, here’s some hidden treasure, what fun. More like, gah! poison ants!" --alea iacta est

by baseballgirl on Jan 27, 2010 9:50 AM PST up reply actions  

If I had to guess

it would likely have been a “No World Series” person.

CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."

by DMOAS on Jan 27, 2010 11:45 AM PST up reply actions  

giants fans?

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones."
-BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Jan 27, 2010 11:48 AM PST up reply actions  

Haha

"Bobby Crosby at third is a bit of an adventure. And not like, here’s some hidden treasure, what fun. More like, gah! poison ants!" --alea iacta est

by baseballgirl on Jan 27, 2010 12:14 PM PST up reply actions  

I think he means

A’s fans who discount what Beane has done because Billy hasn’t won us a WS.

by sf drift king on Jan 27, 2010 12:40 PM PST up reply actions  

i know what he meant, it was a joke

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones."
-BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Jan 27, 2010 2:34 PM PST up reply actions  

Ray Ratto?

HAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox

by mrod on Jan 27, 2010 4:06 PM PST up reply actions  

topical!

I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.

Goals on Film, coming to San Francisco in 2010

by bobnothing on Jan 27, 2010 6:27 PM PST up reply actions  

I think Friedman should be #1

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Jan 27, 2010 9:01 PM PST up reply actions  

Here is a link to see the whole list

Someone copied and pasted it to a spreadsheet.
Link: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=t8gbaBxUTK-iV_FuKzJGFyQ&output=html

I like the formula, and Beane does the most with the least, but we have no rings. This is what counts in the end. This falls on the ownership for not spending enough. Baseball needs a salary cap and floor so all teams can be competitive year to year just like football has.

"We can't stop here... This is bat country."

by Kwester421 on Jan 27, 2010 9:25 AM PST reply actions  

Rings count a lot, but only when you look at it from a macro perspective.

Fielding a competitive and entertaining team day by day is also very important.

You can blame the ownership for not spending enough money, but you would also have to blame the fans as a whole for not showing up at the stadium day after day. Remember, baseball is not a charity. The teams have to make money in order to spend money. History has shown that even when the A’s owners spent money and the A’s had playoff teams, the attendance didn’t rise to the amounts it should have.

Did the NFL’s CBA get renewed? If not, their salary cap is gone for 2010.

by LoneStranger on Jan 27, 2010 9:51 AM PST up reply actions  

The NFL CBA hasn't been changed yet but

Their are so many rules around the uncapped year. Like some players become restricted free agents. Also playoff teams can’t sign anyone without losing someone. That it really isn’t the bug deal they thought it would be. There aren’t really any big names that are unrestricted free agents now.

by Athletix Man on Jan 27, 2010 11:16 AM PST via mobile up reply actions  

a's single season rankings (out of 300 total)

Team GM Year PER
1. Oakland Athletics Beane, Billy 2001 2.10
2. Oakland Athletics Beane, Billy 2002 2.06
5. Oakland Athletics Beane, Billy 2003 1.97
8. Oakland Athletics Beane, Billy 2000 1.88
13. Oakland Athletics Beane, Billy 2005 1.72
50. Oakland Athletics Beane, Billy 2004 1.25
89. Oakland Athletics Beane, Billy 2006 1.10
91. Oakland Athletics Beane, Billy 2009 1.09
134. Oakland Athletics Beane, Billy 2007 1.02
169. Oakland Athletics Beane, Billy 2008 0.99

-the last three years sucked were average based on PER
-it’s funny how 2006 is the next worst, when it’s the year the a’s finally won a playoff series

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones."
-BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Jan 27, 2010 11:16 AM PST up reply actions  

I agree that baseball needs a salary cap

but the reason the A’s do not have a title in recent years is not the lack of salary equality, it’s the crazy-pants winner-take-all playoff system.

If you were to view the regular season and playoff championships as of roughly equal merit (as is the case in European soccer, where winning your domestic league round-robin and winning the Champions League are both “big deals”), then the A’s do have a share of a title (in 2002) along with 3 runner-up finishes.

Shawn Spencer: "I’m receiving a transmission from your husband. Really more of a voicemail, if I'm being honest. A status update. Perhaps a twitter."
Burton Guster: "I believe it’s called a tweet."
Shawn Spencer: "There’s no way I’m saying that."

by PaulThomas on Jan 27, 2010 2:47 PM PST up reply actions  

So what's to stop us all from being like European soccer?

I mean, why can’t we all just decide to care about the regular season and playoff championships as of roughly equal merit?

Who mandated that the World Series is the only thing that matters anyway? Who decided that wild card is just as good as winning the division since either one is a ticket to the playoffs? Seems to me this is just media invention and groupthink, and if we think it’s wrong all we have to do is just stop buying the hype. Am I missing something?

(I’m kind of surprised to see this coming from you, PT? You’re hardly the one I would have thought most likely to join me in attacking the “only the World Series matters” mentality.)

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

by iglew on Jan 27, 2010 11:18 PM PST up reply actions  

What is the ultimate goal?

European soccer is a poor comparison, but that’s beside the point. The goal in baseball is to win the world series. If you want to be the 2001 Mariners, the 2007 Patriots, or even the 2009 San Jose Sharks, that is your perogative.

I gurantee, if you ask any member on those teams if they would trade their regular season finishes for a post-season title, every single person involved in each franchise would say yes. This not a media creation, this is human nature.

by Pucking Insane on Jan 28, 2010 12:08 AM PST up reply actions  

It's only the ultimate goal because you choose to make it so.

Not by any rule.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

by iglew on Jan 28, 2010 12:26 AM PST up reply actions  

The paramount importance of the World Series only became true since 1969

when divisional play started. Winning the pennant was previously the paramount objective, with the World Series having roughly the importance of a bowl game in college football. But since divisional play watered down the importance of the regular season, winning the playoff tournament became the most important thing.

But baseball! Fuck yeah! -- lynnzgal

by WaddellCanseco on Jan 28, 2010 12:52 AM PST up reply actions  

Hm. I've advocated this approach before...

maybe it was before your time?

Anyway, the reason why I care a lot about playoff appearances when I’m playacting at GM is because real GMs have to care a lot about playoff appearances. It’s a Big Deal financially speaking. It’s not what I emphasize in terms of my own fanhood.

PI alludes to the 2009 Sharks, but I actually loved that season. They were pretty obviously the best team in hockey. They ran into a team in the postseason that had one goalie put up a ridiculously amazing, uncharacteristic performance for six games. And because the postseason is the postseason and random shit like that happens, they lost. I’m not going to pretend I wasn’t annoyed about that, but there’s no real reason to think it diminishes the team’s accomplishments.

Shawn Spencer: "I’m receiving a transmission from your husband. Really more of a voicemail, if I'm being honest. A status update. Perhaps a twitter."
Burton Guster: "I believe it’s called a tweet."
Shawn Spencer: "There’s no way I’m saying that."

by PaulThomas on Jan 28, 2010 2:41 PM PST up reply actions  

I feel similarly about the 2001 Mariners.

And I’m pretty sure nothing you’ve said on AN is before my time, since I’ve been here longer than you. It’s entirely possible it was on a thread that I wasn’t following, though. Especially if it was in 2006 or 2007, when I was less active here.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

by iglew on Jan 28, 2010 6:53 PM PST up reply actions  

No salary cap in baseball !

When I first became an A’s fan and saw the breakup of the big 3 and the loss of our MVPs, I was in the camp that baseball needed a salary cap, but I no longer feel that way. Why should the Yankees with rich revenue streams be prevented from spending that money to sign players? If there’s a salary cap, then the owners get to pocket that money. Sorry, but I’d rather see the players get it.
If I were to make any changes, it would be to the way guaranteed contracts are structured. I prefer the system in the NFL.

by sf drift king on Jan 27, 2010 3:18 PM PST up reply actions  

I would rather see ticket prices go down

and parking, and ballpark food, and souveniers, and transaction fees, and . . .

You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}

by micdog2001 on Jan 27, 2010 5:12 PM PST up reply actions  

I see that

but I am more concerned with a floor in the salary system than a cap. Too many owners get to pocket way too much revenue while us (the fans) have to watch a sub par team on the field year to year. If teams had to spend at least a certain amount, they couldn’t pull a Florida Marlin 27 mil payroll screw job and keep 100 mil +. Never happen, but oh well. Another year of Yankees, red sux, Angels, and a central contender (should be tigers for all that $$$$).

"We can't stop here... This is bat country."

by Kwester421 on Jan 27, 2010 5:30 PM PST up reply actions  

why do people care so much about the marlins payroll

when they have fielded a relatively decent team over the last 4 years?
so if they had signed juan pierre to a $40 million contract, and won fewer games, there would be no problem?

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones."
-BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Jan 27, 2010 5:56 PM PST up reply actions  

It's not so much the low payroll, but the pocketing of revenue sharing money.

If I remember correctly, the Marlins spend less on players than they get in revenue sharing, and the owners pocket the difference.

Always the summers are slipping away.
Find me a way for making it stay.

by danmerqury on Jan 27, 2010 6:57 PM PST up reply actions  

if they still have a halfway decent team, why does it matter what they do with their money?

is the point of professional sports to win games or to spend money?

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones."
-BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Jan 27, 2010 7:23 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm not sure

But I’m pretty certain the answer isn’t to spend other people’s money to make a profit AND beat their teams.

As nice as that sounds.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Jan 27, 2010 9:04 PM PST up reply actions  

That's just it

It wasnt their money, revenue sharing money was being pocketed. Their payroll was like 35 mil and MLB gave them 15 mil and said “wow no one supports your team, here is some welfare” the Marlins then bumped their payroll up to 40mil and pocketed the rest

It is like if your parents gave you money to buy a christmas ham, and instead you go and spam, and spend the rest on drugs.

by Sir Realist on Jan 27, 2010 10:35 PM PST up reply actions  

who cares what the Marlins do with their money

and you’re wrong, once that revenue sharing money is in the team’s hands, they imo, can do whatever they want to do with the money, pocket it, spend it on players, whatever.. it’s their choice.

by sf drift king on Jan 27, 2010 11:02 PM PST up reply actions  

Not according to the CBA, it's not.

In my post below I didn’t represent it exactly right.

It’s from the Collective Bargaining Agreement (pdf here), article XXIV(5)(a), on page 124 in the PDF:

A principal objective of the Revenue Sharing Plan is to promote the growth of the Game and the industry on an individual Club and on an aggregate basis. Accordingly, each Club shall use its revenue sharing receipts (from the Base Plan, the Central Fund Component and the Commissioner’s Discretionary Fund) in an effort to improve its performance on the field. Each Payee Club, no later than April 1, shall report on the performance-related uses to which it put its revenue sharing receipts in the preceding Revenue Sharing Year. Consistent with his authority under the Major League Constitution, the Commissioner may impose penalties on any Club that violates this obligation.

In other words, part of the terms of receiving the money is that they have to spend it in a certain way. It’s not their choice to do whatever they want with the money.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

by iglew on Jan 27, 2010 11:34 PM PST up reply actions  

I take issue with your analogy

I see nothing wrong with that

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury

by Future Ed on Jan 28, 2010 12:12 PM PST up reply actions  

If that's actually true, then they're in breach of contract.

The revenue sharing contract actually specifies that revenue sharing money must be spent to “improve the product on the field”. That’s a very vague term and owners could probably make an argument for just about any expenditure that it somehow “improves the product”. But if their total spending is actually below the revenue sharing total, then logically they must be pocketing some of the money, and I don’t see how they could argue that’s not a contract violation.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

by iglew on Jan 27, 2010 11:23 PM PST up reply actions  

It could be a breach in contract, but who's going to pursue it?

Especially with a new CBA to be hammered out soon.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Jan 27, 2010 11:29 PM PST up reply actions  

The Commissioner, I assume.

Looks like he’s specifically empowered to impose penalties.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

by iglew on Jan 27, 2010 11:38 PM PST up reply actions  

Funny, Google turns up a lot of stories that use the phrase

“improve the product on the field”, which is how I came to hear of it.

But now that I’ve looked it up in the CBA, I see that’s a misquote. It actually says “improve its performance on the field”. So, for example, if they spent money on stadium facilities that would arguably improve the product but wouldn’t improve the performance.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

by iglew on Jan 27, 2010 11:37 PM PST up reply actions  

Eh

That would improve the overall product, but not the product on the field. “On the field” means the team playing on said field.

Shawn Spencer: "I’m receiving a transmission from your husband. Really more of a voicemail, if I'm being honest. A status update. Perhaps a twitter."
Burton Guster: "I believe it’s called a tweet."
Shawn Spencer: "There’s no way I’m saying that."

by PaulThomas on Jan 28, 2010 2:42 PM PST up reply actions  

I think the difference between the two phrases is that one

could be seen as referring to the entertainment value of the product whereas the other specifies it should actually be helping them win games. (Of course if you think winning games is the only thing that makes a team more entertaining then there’s no difference.)

Not much point in parsing it, since the one phrase is the correct one, and any debate would only be measuring whether one of us was misinterpreting the misquote phrase that was never in the contract anyway. But before I knew the correct phrase, I assumed it would be allowed to spend revenue sharing on, eg, a new stadium, whereas now that I read the correct words, I assume it would not be allowed.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

by iglew on Jan 28, 2010 6:58 PM PST up reply actions  

Ha!

Now I’m curious how my list compares. Or, at least, how it would compare if I split by GM rather than franchise.

Always the summers are slipping away.
Find me a way for making it stay.

by danmerqury on Jan 27, 2010 9:56 AM PST reply actions  

I was wondering that too!

And I want to know the difference between GM and franchise, because it’s there, I’m just not sure how you split it up, you know?

"Bobby Crosby at third is a bit of an adventure. And not like, here’s some hidden treasure, what fun. More like, gah! poison ants!" --alea iacta est

by baseballgirl on Jan 27, 2010 11:16 AM PST up reply actions  

If only

Beane would force Wolff to open his damn wallet, we have the ownership to spend like the Phillies and the Angels, yet our ownership is in love with how our GM tries to cut costs.

I wonder if our payroll were 20-30 million more, how would this ranking change for Beane? He isn’t exactly the best at getting free agents when there is money available, so I’m guessing worse.

by DiNatale on Jan 27, 2010 9:57 AM PST reply actions  

This is an oversimplification

The A’s are a business. There is no reason to expect sane businessmen to spend more money than the revenues that business generates can justify. The revenue streams they have (about $130 M) justify a payroll in 60-70 Million range but no higher. They have spent below that, but they have also gone over that threshold.

The Angels ($214 Million) and Phillies ($212 Million) have much better revenue situations and their owners spend as a result.

by jeffro on Jan 27, 2010 10:02 AM PST up reply actions  

I don't want a sane businessman for an owner

I want a goddamn philanthropist.

"Smokey, this be not the foul jungles of the darkest East Orient. This be ninepins. We are bound by laws."

by Joey C. on Jan 27, 2010 11:37 AM PST up reply actions  

Well, want in one hand and poop in the other

and see which one fills up first.

But seriously, which owners are philanthropists these days?

by jeffro on Jan 27, 2010 12:05 PM PST up reply actions  

everyone always points to Steinbrenner

but this is a bad example. The Yankees make so much money that they can be profitable even with a $200M payroll.

There might be teams out that would be willing to go in the red for one year to pursue a title, but over the long run every owner is making money. Lots and lots of money.

by colin on Jan 27, 2010 12:55 PM PST up reply actions  

Oh, I'm well aware that it's not a possibility

I was just sayin’.

"Smokey, this be not the foul jungles of the darkest East Orient. This be ninepins. We are bound by laws."

by Joey C. on Jan 27, 2010 1:11 PM PST up reply actions  

Different ways to look at it...

Eight teams make the play-offs. Consistently, at least five or six of those teams will be from within the top ten teams in terms of spending/revenue. That leaves no more than two or three teams from the other twenty teams. That’s the way it works.

To me, the ONLY thing that counts is whether the team is within shot of the playoffs through most of the season. Otherwise the season is a lost cause. For this reason, I’d probably have abandoned baseball if I lived in Baltimore or Toronto. These days, there’s not much point in rooting at all. And I know that this is a formula for comparing GMs, but really, it doesn’t much matter if a team averages 70 wins, or 75 wins per season…it’s still a losing team.

I think Beane & Company made a few mis-steps which they’re still paying for. They wasted top draft picks on Simmons and Pennnington, and the farm system wasn’t very good for quite a while. Had the farm system been better, Haren wouldn’t have been traded, and the A’s rotation in 2008 (Haren, Harden, Blanton, Duchsherer) would’ve been contender-worthy.

The thing I love about Billy Beane and his people is that you can see they’re always learning, changing. I think right now, undervalued players are older veterans who can’t get good multi-year contracts, so the A’s are signing them right and left while hopefully building up a core group of players who will come up, year after year. I think 2009 was a Moneyball year that didn’t work…undervalued players who wound up not being undervalued.

The real problem is a system in which individual teams benefit from media contracts. You can’t create anything close to parity under those circumstances.

by richwol1 on Jan 27, 2010 10:27 AM PST reply actions  

The data do not support this conclusion
Eight teams make the play-offs. Consistently, at least five or six of those teams will be from within the top ten teams in terms of spending/revenue.

In 2009, five of the eight playoff teams were among the top ten in total payroll. Minnesota, St Louis, and Colorado were not among the top ten.

In 2008, five of the eight playoff teams were among the top ten in total payroll. Philadelphia, Milwaukee, and Tampa Bay were not. (Philadelphia was 12th.) Curiously, in this year the top three teams in terms of payroll all missed the playoffs (Yankees, Mets, Detroit).

In 2007, four of the eight playoff teams were among the top ten in total payroll. Philadelphia, Cleveland, Arizona, and Colorado were not.

In 2006, three of the eight playoff teams were among top ten in total payroll. St Louis, Detroit, Minnesota, San Diego, and Oakland were not. (Ironically, Detroit’s payroll would be in the top ten for the next three seasons while they missed the playoffs, but in 2006 when they made it they were 14th.)

In the four most recent seasons, your claim is only correct for two of them, and even for those it is at the low end of the “at least five or six” that you assert.

(Payroll figures from USA Today.)

I only checked those four years, so I don’t know if the pattern holds before that.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

by iglew on Jan 27, 2010 2:38 PM PST up reply actions  

You're right...

…but the trend is there. I guess I should’ve been clearer. And in terms of “top ten,” you can enlarge it to “clubs able to be in the top ten.”

by richwol1 on Jan 27, 2010 4:00 PM PST up reply actions  

Philadelphia..

…was in a position to spend the money to be in the top ten, but fell just below because their younger players were still relatively cheap. But the next year, they bumped up because those players were more costly. Just because you have the money if you need it doesn’t mean that you’re going to spend it.

by richwol1 on Jan 27, 2010 6:25 PM PST up reply actions  

I wasn't disputing the trend, by the way.

Just playing fact-checker.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

by iglew on Jan 27, 2010 11:40 PM PST up reply actions  

Yea but if we did not

Trade Haren, then we wouldn’t have Anderson. I think Anderson will be a much more valuable pitcher for us in 2010 2011 2012 then Haren would have been. Only time will tell though…

"I Will Not Relent, I Am Driven"... Clutch
Bring Back The Bash!!!

by Shippee33 on Jan 27, 2010 7:44 PM PST up reply actions  

How is Omar Minaya not at the bottom?

Oh, but if I catch a line drive by a girl, that’s girl-on-girl action, the twiceness is eliminated, and it just counts once - gigglingone

by closetasfan on Jan 27, 2010 10:35 AM PST reply actions  

He's somewhere in the middle, actually

"Bobby Crosby at third is a bit of an adventure. And not like, here’s some hidden treasure, what fun. More like, gah! poison ants!" --alea iacta est

by baseballgirl on Jan 27, 2010 11:19 AM PST up reply actions  

Fans are creatures of the moment

So I suppose our “no” voting friends can be forgiven their transgressions.

"Smokey, this be not the foul jungles of the darkest East Orient. This be ninepins. We are bound by laws."

by Joey C. on Jan 27, 2010 11:38 AM PST reply actions  

Whatever

it seems like these guys get all the credit when things go well or they get fired when we suck, but it’s all in the scouting and having good people around him. I’m reserving judgment until after this year, if we play close to .500 ball then I’ll be satisfied, if we do better then he’s a genius, but if we suck again, well lots of guys can take 4 or 5 years, maybe even longer to rebuild, it may even be longer, we dont know yet. Sorry do I seem angry?

by Boss Playa on Jan 27, 2010 11:42 AM PST reply actions  

Well, hell, they were about, what, 6 wins from .500 last season?

A 6 game swing could easily happen just on pure chance. I’d like to see a little more progress than just .500. ‘Course, I don’t think I’m gonna see it.

"Smokey, this be not the foul jungles of the darkest East Orient. This be ninepins. We are bound by laws."

by Joey C. on Jan 27, 2010 1:17 PM PST up reply actions  

I think it's really more a measure of total organizational skill than GM skill per se

For instance, guess which organization ranks fifth— it’s none other than the Giants, headed by our bete noire, Brian Sabean.

Well, that’s fine and all, but it’s kinda easy to do well when your scouting department serves up Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain and your predecessor helpfully hands you over a roster on which virtually all you have to do to generate an average-quality offense is to repeatedly re-sign one particular player. The actual decisions that have been made that were identifiably his have been mind-bogglingly stupid.

Shawn Spencer: "I’m receiving a transmission from your husband. Really more of a voicemail, if I'm being honest. A status update. Perhaps a twitter."
Burton Guster: "I believe it’s called a tweet."
Shawn Spencer: "There’s no way I’m saying that."

by PaulThomas on Jan 27, 2010 2:54 PM PST up reply actions  

The Jeff Kent trade was a feather in his hat....

"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton

by vignette17 on Jan 27, 2010 3:45 PM PST up reply actions  

Well, in his defense.....

Sabean never really never wanted to sign Zito to that crazy contract. On that I am 100% certain about. That was all Peter McGowan trying to find a new face for the franchise and attempting to stick it to Lew Wolff & Beane.

Still,……………..Edgar Fucking Renteria? Armando Benitez? Yikes!!!!!!

Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox

by mrod on Jan 27, 2010 4:26 PM PST up reply actions  

I think it's funny that the Mariners have

one of the worst and one of the best.

You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}

by micdog2001 on Jan 27, 2010 11:56 AM PST reply actions  

no, what's funny is the mariners replaced one of the best with one of the worst

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones."
-BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Jan 27, 2010 12:02 PM PST up reply actions  

Pat Gillick's tenure with the M's is a tad overrated.

He was always good at building teams to win now but generally at the expense of the future. I always liked how Gillick resigned as GM right before the team collapsed in 2004, leaving Bavasi with an aging core and a shoddy farm system.

And Bavasi…..well, yea, he did a pretty nice job restoring the farm system. I’ll just leave it at that though.

by ThundaPC on Jan 27, 2010 12:54 PM PST up reply actions  

What's funnier still is that if Jack Z's moves work in the end

They may have replaced one of the worst with the best

"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey

by cuppingmaster on Jan 27, 2010 1:13 PM PST up reply actions  

OK

that is even more humorus.

You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}

by micdog2001 on Jan 27, 2010 5:15 PM PST up reply actions  

OK

that is even more humorus.

You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}

by micdog2001 on Jan 27, 2010 5:15 PM PST up reply actions  

so here's a likely unpopular opinion...

it seems to me that these rankings favor smaller-market teams. the way the calculation is done, the GM from a team that spends a lot simply can’t be ranked very high. this makes me think that these rankings only partially reflect the challenges of putting together a winning team year after year. now don’t get me wrong, i dislike the bosox just as much as any ANer should, but I question a ranking that places epstein 16th. i also question a ranking that places the a’s GM first when in recent years they struggle just to get a decent radio deal and have done very little to show that the care much about their local fanbase.

Zito: You ever think about the space time continuum?
Huddy: Uh... no.

by mendelbob on Jan 27, 2010 1:07 PM PST reply actions   1 recs

good observation

and I was just thinking the same thing. There is a plateau after a certain amount of wins, yet you can continue to spend almost at will if you are a top team. The primary argument for why there is “parity” now is that teams like the Red Sox have a larger margin for error, but that in turn artificially skews rankings like this down for a guy like Epstein. So, when someone doesn’t work out or gets injured (likely not his fault), he is docked for things out of his control. If Beane had the Boston payroll, and signed as many free agents as they do, he would be bound to suffer the same deleterious effects in this ranking.

Again, I hate them too, but this analysis is missing something.

"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey

by cuppingmaster on Jan 27, 2010 1:21 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't think there's anything wrong with the analysis

I think what you disagree with is what makes a GM “the best.” BP decided to crown the best GM based on bang for the buck. Others might suggest— and I don’t necessarily disagree— that the best GMs might be the ones that piloted their teams to wins and playoff success.

How wrong am I on this? BP did evaluate them based solely on their PER, right?

"Smokey, this be not the foul jungles of the darkest East Orient. This be ninepins. We are bound by laws."

by Joey C. on Jan 27, 2010 1:26 PM PST up reply actions  

I believe so. I think the PER was the only measure in the chart.

"Bobby Crosby at third is a bit of an adventure. And not like, here’s some hidden treasure, what fun. More like, gah! poison ants!" --alea iacta est

by baseballgirl on Jan 27, 2010 1:35 PM PST up reply actions  

Thanks, BBG

"Smokey, this be not the foul jungles of the darkest East Orient. This be ninepins. We are bound by laws."

by Joey C. on Jan 27, 2010 1:44 PM PST up reply actions  

Looks like only PER

I would have preferred the title “most efficient GM of the decade”, because that’s really what this is measuring.

"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey

by cuppingmaster on Jan 27, 2010 1:36 PM PST up reply actions  

I agree

"Smokey, this be not the foul jungles of the darkest East Orient. This be ninepins. We are bound by laws."

by Joey C. on Jan 27, 2010 1:44 PM PST up reply actions  

But even that needs a big asterisk

Any time you do a projection model there’s going to be uncertainties and margins of error associated with your assumptions. But there’s a HUGE difference between formulas that only involve results on the baseball field (where we have enormous mounds of data and can do sophisticated statistical analysis) and those that start to involve team revenues (where the books are closed and our numbers are basically just half-educated guesses pulled out of someone’s butt).

I’m not saying we shouldn’t have this sort of ranking — it’s a fun exercise, for sure — but it often feels to me that readers of sites like BP gloss over the difference between baseball data and financial data, when there’s a whole galaxy of difference between them in terms of reliability of the numbers. I mean, one of the inputs here is “what the team’s marginal revenue should have been”. Are you kidding me? It’s hard to get a good read on that even for a fully audited publicly traded company, but we’re supposed to accept that BP has it figured out for private and secretive baseball teams? I don’t think so.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

by iglew on Jan 27, 2010 2:19 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

This isn't exactly true....here is the explanation:
First, we find each team’s expected revenue, based on their third-order winning percentage, and how big their market is. Then, you divide that by what each team’s marginal revenue should have been, had they won exactly as many games as their payroll would have predicted. (Draft pick value is also factored in, so the worst teams get slightly more credit than the vanilla mediocre teams.) The end result is PER—Payroll Efficiency Rating—which tells us how well each team spent their payroll dollars.

So a large market team GM can do well because the payoff for good decisions is greater than with a small market team. The A’s get a double bonus because their market — if defined as SJ-SF-Oak — large and rich, but their payroll is small.

But baseball! Fuck yeah! -- lynnzgal

by WaddellCanseco on Jan 27, 2010 4:23 PM PST up reply actions  

Agree

And Cashman is listed down at the bottom - but his teams have made the playoffs every year save one. And if the goal is making the play-offs, then Cashman has done his job, whether efficiently or not.

by richwol1 on Jan 27, 2010 4:02 PM PST up reply actions  

thats what I was thinking

there is also ownership meddling. Like Steinbrenner demanding certain players or in the A’s case Wolff asking for a big splash with Holliday. Or the rumors about MLB demanding smaller revenue teams spend the revenue sharing money.

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury

by Future Ed on Jan 27, 2010 1:57 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm a little surprised to see Phillips as the worst GM

just because the Mets did get to the World Series under his watch.

As far as Beane being the best I have no real problem with it although I’m sure Yankee and Red Sox fans would mention rings and say either Cashman or Epstein is the best.

by sirbed on Jan 27, 2010 1:24 PM PST reply actions  

No DLD to post this in (hasn't been much need for one lately)

and I don’t have the time to post one but I can’t pass this up. In honor of Apple announce the ipad today.

MadTV can see in the future!

You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}

by micdog2001 on Jan 27, 2010 5:36 PM PST reply actions  

Can anyone explain

why there is an ipad and why they chose a stupid name?

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury

by Future Ed on Jan 27, 2010 7:11 PM PST up reply actions  

it's almost like a company naming their video game console the Wii

but just like the Wii it is probably going to sell like hotcakes.

You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}

by micdog2001 on Jan 28, 2010 10:38 AM PST up reply actions  

Are Wii/penis jokes out of fashion yet?

That lasted a good two years.

Always the summers are slipping away.
Find me a way for making it stay.

by danmerqury on Jan 28, 2010 10:51 AM PST up reply actions  

Yes they are

haven’t heard one in a while.

You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}

by micdog2001 on Jan 28, 2010 2:21 PM PST up reply actions  

my favourite comment on this, from a friend's "tweet" was

2) How are people in Boston going to differentiate between the iPod and iPad?

I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.

Goals on Film, coming to San Francisco in 2010

by bobnothing on Jan 27, 2010 9:36 PM PST reply actions  

shit, in reply to the Future Ed

etc

I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.

Goals on Film, coming to San Francisco in 2010

by bobnothing on Jan 27, 2010 9:37 PM PST up reply actions  

QOTM

"Bobby Crosby at third is a bit of an adventure. And not like, here’s some hidden treasure, what fun. More like, gah! poison ants!" --alea iacta est

by baseballgirl on Jan 27, 2010 10:41 PM PST up reply actions  

My GM rankings

1 Larry Beinfiest FLA Consistently has winning teams with the lowest payroll in the big leagues and an owner that refuses to invest in talent at all.
2 Jack Z Love his Lee acquisition. Thought his ability to build a top notch farm system and young core in Milwaukee was very underrated. Putz trade last year was stellar and completely undid Bavasi’s incompetence far quicker than anyone else I can think of could have.
3. Billy. Built a great core with few mistakes (Holliday/Hudson trades, Loiza FA signing). Consitant winners with low payroll.

"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Jan 27, 2010 9:49 PM PST reply actions  

YES

Billy #1

I also love Friedman, JackZ and Theo.
I would love to see Theo and Friedman swap places to see what would happen.

Is this the real life-
Is this just fantasy-
Caught in a landslide-
No escape from reality-

by Daniel777 on Jan 28, 2010 3:34 AM PST reply actions  

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