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Bats, Physics & Aerodynamics (Oh My)

I come to you with a plea for help in the form of leads, ideas, and resources, and then invite a discussion on the topic that is the basis for said plea...The topic is bats...

Star-divide

One of my 8th grade students -- we'll call him I.P. Freely, since that's who appears on every sign-up list we post at the school -- is building baseball bats from scratch as part of a big 8th grade project. He has already built one and it's beautiful, though not of ideal length/weight proportions (it came out something like 37 inches / 40 ounces).

lathe


Photobucket

 

bats


I.P. plans to make another bat with the tip hollowed out, and try ones with varying lengths, gradations of widths from handle-to-tip, types of wood, and so on.

Part of the project involves I.P. learning as much as he can about the physics that are involved in making good baseball bats -- that is, ones likely to have a bigger "sweet spot" and a smaller "tendency to crack the second time it makes contact with a baseball."

My question to you is: Can you help me (him) identify good resources for learning about the physics of baseball bats? Are there books or articles you can point us to? Are there any experts lurking in our community who could, and would be willing to, be a resource for I.P.?

Meanwhile, perhaps you would to talk about bats -- what you know and what you wonder about these strange creatures who hang upside down. And thanks in advance for any help you can give.

As for me, by the way I'm leaving AN to join the priesthood. Or pursue my dream of being a lion tamer. Or something.

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Chapter 6 of Dr. Robert

Stewart: "What really needs to be clear is it wouldn't have mattered if there was an earthquake or not. We were going to beat the Giants.

by Elvez on Jan 23, 2010 9:36 AM PST reply actions  

some links

Links to articles about the physics of baseball maintained by a physicist at University of Illinois. A first glance, it seems like there is some good stuff here, including things pertaining to bats, but the level of math/physics knowledge is pretty advanced. Also, he seems to be a Red Sox fan, so that could be a dealbreaker.

I’ve also heard some good things about this book, and it is probably written to be more accessible for a non-technical audience. (Is this the same book that El Vez just referenced?)

by colin on Jan 23, 2010 9:37 AM PST reply actions  

and of course

there is physics expertise on AN!

by colin on Jan 23, 2010 9:39 AM PST up reply actions  

Thanks, colin!

I’ve been out all day, just got back to check out the thread.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 23, 2010 3:51 PM PST up reply actions  

Sorry: Chapter 6 of Dr. Robert Adair's "The Physics of Baseball"

“Properties of Bats” covers the topics of optimum bat weight, vibrational nodes, and the effects of corked cores. Great read, lots of info.

Stewart: "What really needs to be clear is it wouldn't have mattered if there was an earthquake or not. We were going to beat the Giants.

by Elvez on Jan 23, 2010 9:40 AM PST reply actions  

Figure 6.1 shows the variation of maximum distances… that a 90-mph fastball can be hit under these two conditions; the dotted line shows the variation if bats of different weight are swung with the same kinetic energy that drives a ball 381 feet off a 32-ounce bat; the broken line shows the variation if the bats are swung with the same velocity as that of the 32-ounce bat. Noting that these curves establish limits on the variation of distance with bat weight, we can be reasonably confident that if a man who hits a ball 381 feet with a 32-ounce bat changes bat weight, and swings just as hard, the distance the ball will go will fall between these two extremem lines. Moreover, it is clear that the man who hits 381-foot home runs with a 32-ounce bat will not likely gain or lose very much distance by changing the weight of his bat by a few ounces.

The model is certainly simplistic, and the conclusions derived from it myst be taken cum grano salis. The effects are not large: The 46-ounce bat propels the ball only 8 feet farther than the 32-ounce bat; if the batter drills a hole in his 32-ounce bat (perhaps filling it with cork) so its weight is reduced to 28 ounces, the ball will go only 373 feet.

Stewart: "What really needs to be clear is it wouldn't have mattered if there was an earthquake or not. We were going to beat the Giants.

by Elvez on Jan 23, 2010 10:09 AM PST up reply actions  

Awesome; thanks Elvez!

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 23, 2010 3:52 PM PST up reply actions  

Well, my work's done

That was exactly the source and material I was going to give you. I have the book, so I can loan it to you if necessary.
I also have an actual wooden bat made by a “licensed” batmaker…no, not a Louisville Slugger or H&B, but it has the better profile than copying an aluminium bat. That too is available on loan.

Awaiting the start of the 2010 season!

by One won lost won on Jan 23, 2010 6:25 PM PST up reply actions  

Thanks, Owlw

It looks like the book is available at the library, but if he can’t get it there I’ll be in touch!

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 24, 2010 9:23 AM PST up reply actions  

That hit my sweet spot.

(lights candle on Cliff Pennington prayer altar)

"Sniff some krazy glue, and start a religion!"- The Reverend Billy Lard

by Gaijin_Suketto on Jan 23, 2010 12:43 PM PST up reply actions  

So, here are some experiments that I'd be interested in conducting

Now, I don’t know how old this kid is, or what level of math you’ve got to, so you can vary this to suit tastes. It might take a lot of wood, though, so perhaps the more theory, the better.

Overall objective – to investigate various bat geometries / wood types to find an “optimal” baseball bat within a given set of parameters.

Task 1: Calculate the force with which a baseball hits a bat. This can be done in one of two ways, depending on whether you want to teach some theory, or practical technique.

1a) Theory – The force with which a ball hits a baseball bat can be calculated using a Newtonian approximation, assuming that in an ideal elastic collision there is no spin, energy is conserved, and there is no physical change in the bat or ball (you might ask the class to comment on these assumptions). You know the mass of a baseball, you know the velocity of a baseball before and after it hits the bat (I’m sure you can find this somewhere, but you can easily calculate / approximate; again, this is good scientific practice), so you’re left with an equation like


F= ma, where F is the force on the bat (and the ball – Newton’s laws teaching point!, m is the mass of the ball, and a is the acceleration. Remember that both force and acceleration are vectors, so DIRECTION IS IMPORTANT).

In addition, as it’s a perfectly elastic collision, energy will be conserved; That is, the kinetic energy of the ball + bat before the collision = the kinetic energy of the ball after the collision (all energy is transfered to the ball!). Anyway, you get an equation like this:


1/2MV^2 + 1/2m(rw)^2 = 1/2MU^2

where M = mass of baseball, V = initial velocity of baseball, m = mass of bat, r = distance of centre of gravity of bat from shoulder (ie, the radius of the swing), w = omega, the angular momentum of the bat (ie, number of radians covered per second), and U = departing velocty of baseball)

You can use this to calculate U, the departing speed of the baseball, and feed it back into the equation above, thus finding the force. Also, if you’ve already taught your class about moments of inertia, then you can use those equations (that’d be super awesome).

1b Practical – You can measure the force of a baseball hitting a bat practically in a number of ways – Seems like the easiest would be to fire, or even throw, a baseball at a pressure pad and measure the force at which it hits. There are issues surrounding modelling real life, here – for instance, how do you get the baseball to travel at a high enough velocity? It’s good to think about, and see if you can quantify, the innacuracies of your data points. This could be a fun experiment, though. You’ll also have to measure the force with which the bat hits the ball, too – you can do this by swinging at a pressure pad.

2. Bat design!

Now that you’ve done the background investigation, we’ll want to investigate various bat designs to see what the ‘ideal’ is. As actually building the experimental apparatus (ie, the bat!) here is quite tough and time consuming, you might want to limit the focus of your investigations. Let’s say you want to investigate something like this:

Assumption: to gain the greatest change in velocity as a baseball hits the bat, the centre of gravity of the bat should be as far from the pivot as is possible – in other words, the mass should be concentrated at the furthest point possible, to maximize the moment of Inertia.

Test: Given that we know the force with which ball and bat meet, how ‘thin’ can we make the rest of the bat, so that its structural integrity remains intact?

In other words, what you’re saying is – it’s better if more ‘bat’ hits the ball, so ideally, we want to concentrate the mass around the sweet spot. The problem is, though, for a given mass, this means that you sacrifice the strength of the rest of the bat (the handle end), and it might result in it splitting.

So, basically – you want to set the bat up so the handle is firmly clamped. You can then apply a force to the bat, and observe the results (this is where it all gets a bit mythbusters, but there’s still some good science in here). Because a bat is round, and the force can be approximated to be non-torsional, it actually doesn’t matter if the force is a ‘pulling’ force or a ‘pushing’ force. Ways of applying it could be to hang weights off the end (or various other parts of the bat).

You can teach about moments, tensile strength and density of materials.

Something else that’d be interesting to think about – can you create a more ‘efficient’ distribution of weight by using a flatter geometry, more like a cricket bat?

This actually seems like a fun experiment overall, and teaches experimental technique and theoretical investigation. And some engineering stuff, too – the whole ‘distribution of mass’ thing applies to most anything that’s built – including bridges between scientists and non-scientists.

Ok, that last bit may not be correct.

Hm, I’m sure there are other things you can teach around this, too. Let me know if you want any help.

Also, other scientists / engineers, please feel free to correct any mistakes I’ve made above.

I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.

Goals on Film, coming to San Francisco in 2010

by bobnothing on Jan 23, 2010 10:20 AM PST reply actions  

it gets pretty tricky

I’m fairly certain that, in the simple conservation of energy/momentum limit that you describe above, the only thing that matters is how heavy the bat is and how fast you swing it. The detailed properties of the bat only start coming into play when you relax the assumption that the bat is a rigid object, and so on.

One interesting project would be to study the vibrational modes of the bat. Clamp the bat down at the handle, as if someone is gripping it, then hit it at various locations along the barrel and measure the vibrations in the wood. (yeah, the measurement apparatus for this might be pretty involved) The “sweet spot” of a bat corresponds to nodes in the standing wave pattern, locations on the bat that remain stationary while the rest of the bat vibrates.

by colin on Jan 23, 2010 2:14 PM PST up reply actions  

Yes, you're right about the first bit, certainly

what the experiment is designed to show is whether altering the moment of intertia of the bat (ie, in extremis, should it be more tubular or should it be a stick with a big weight on the end) leads to physical limitations.

Actually, thinking about it, you’re not quite correct – because the kinetic energy of the bat during swing is based on r^2, where r is the radius of the arc described by the centre of mass of the bat, the placement of such will alter the kinetic energy. Of course, because the moment of inertia is greater, it becomes harder to accelerate the bat end with your arms; there’s an implicit assumption that it’s Frank Thomas swinging, and he can swing anything. Like a tyre iron

I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.

Goals on Film, coming to San Francisco in 2010

by bobnothing on Jan 23, 2010 4:24 PM PST up reply actions  

Actually, I guess an assumption I made was "bat speed remains constant under all circumstances"

Which is not necessarily a valid one to make.

I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.

Goals on Film, coming to San Francisco in 2010

by bobnothing on Jan 23, 2010 4:28 PM PST up reply actions  

good point

More relevant than “how fast you swing it” is how fast is the bat head moving that hits the ball. And then the mass distribution of the bat comes into play. So I take it back, there are totally interesting questions about bat design that show up in the elastic collision limit.

by colin on Jan 23, 2010 6:22 PM PST up reply actions  

Yes, bat head velocity is what I was referring to by "how fast you swing it"

Though, the actual velocity that it’s moving at will also depend on the length of the bat (and of the arms, too); it’s worth distinguishing between angular and linear velocity.

I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.

Goals on Film, coming to San Francisco in 2010

by bobnothing on Jan 23, 2010 11:42 PM PST up reply actions  

according to the rules

cited in “The Physics of Baseball” the bat has to be round. No “cricket bats” or flat spots.

A lot of your ideas to explore have been explored in the book. In summary, bat speed trumps other factors. Which makes one wonder, why not a “pine” bat with lighter weight, even if one swing and done? Ask Edgar Renteria (2001 WS). Sometimes in MLB, it’s just a matter of getting the bat on the ball.

Awaiting the start of the 2010 season!

by One won lost won on Jan 23, 2010 6:31 PM PST up reply actions  

Well, bat speed is most important, but there has to be some mass to the bat or the ball won't go anywhere

Taken to the extreme, you’d get a ton of bat speed with a whiffle bat, but the ball isn’t going to actually go anywhere even if you make perfect contact.

www.zekeishungry.com

by thejd44 on Jan 23, 2010 6:58 PM PST up reply actions  

Bat speed is indeed more important.

By an exponential amount, actually. Kinetic energy is given by K=1/2*m*v^2 where m is mass and v is velocity. The bat speed is squared before going into the equation, making it that much more important.

That being said, this equation only holds true if the bat retains its structural integrity. A whiffle bat wouldn’t work because it’s way too soft. (This also explains why aluminum bats work so much better than wood—aluminum holds its shape better).

Always the summers are slipping away.
Find me a way for making it stay.

by danmerqury on Jan 24, 2010 10:44 AM PST up reply actions  

oh yeah, my suggestion about a cricket bat was more from an engineering perspective, rather than a baseball one

the Universe, of course, not playing by the same rules as the major leagues of baseball and their subsidiary operations.

No matter what Bud Selig might like to think

I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.

Goals on Film, coming to San Francisco in 2010

by bobnothing on Jan 23, 2010 11:40 PM PST up reply actions  

Guesses on Mychael Urban's "great news" for next week?

Anybody?

Ben Sheets signing?
Trading for Yunel Escobar?

"Life is a horizontal fall" -Jean Cocteau

by King Richard on Jan 23, 2010 11:27 AM PST reply actions  

There's a sale at Penny's!

Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox

by mrod on Jan 23, 2010 1:22 PM PST up reply actions  

Or they're bringing out a new gameshow.

It’s like Hollywood Squares, but for kids. Gary Coleman will host.

Stewart: "What really needs to be clear is it wouldn't have mattered if there was an earthquake or not. We were going to beat the Giants.

by Elvez on Jan 23, 2010 2:01 PM PST up reply actions  

In order of likelihood

1) Ben Sheets signing
2) Grady Fuson returning
3) Ballpark in SJ news
4) There is no #4
5) No poofters (Father Desme’s wishes)
6) O’s deal falls apart and A’s actual sign Miggy
7) Yunel trade

"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton

by vignette17 on Jan 23, 2010 2:19 PM PST up reply actions  

I didn't even think of the possibility of #3

Now that I think about it, that makes the most sense. How would Urban know several days in advance about a signing?

If that’s the case, that makes his tweet that much more cryptic: there are equal numbers who want SJ and Oakland. Which one?

"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey

by cuppingmaster on Jan 23, 2010 10:57 PM PST up reply actions  

er, reply meant to vignette17

"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey

by cuppingmaster on Jan 23, 2010 11:01 PM PST up reply actions  

Maybe he (Urban) is returning back to his old gig.

Oh wait, he said “great news” for A’s fans….. nevermind.

by HRH on Jan 23, 2010 11:20 PM PST up reply actions  

I Seymore Batts

alaska A residing in northern Idaho.

by ak_A on Jan 23, 2010 1:14 PM PST reply actions  

in 8th grade i was playing mariokart

"They (The 1989 A's) are the best team I ever saw"- Mike Krukow

by 9Custs on Jan 23, 2010 1:36 PM PST reply actions  

needs to have as few grains in the wood as possible. pro-grade wood is less than 15 grains (counted at the fat end). ash or maple works well.

when contact is made, all of the grains should be parralel to the ground…maximizing the uumph in the bat.

"We lose to Stanford in many sports, but if you want to make a Cal team quit, bring a weapon."
--Coach Clark

by carp on Jan 23, 2010 2:05 PM PST reply actions  

Yes I have one available and can get it to Nico

so he’ll have a decent profile to copy. I’ve made stuff on both a metal lathe and a wood lathe with handheld tools (<<< artistry!), so I know what he’d need.

Awaiting the start of the 2010 season!

by One won lost won on Jan 23, 2010 6:34 PM PST up reply actions  

Totally different subject

Miguel Tejada is set to sign with the Orioles. Makes sense over the A’s - they’re giving him a regular position at 3B; with the A’s he’d be a back-up unless Pennington tanked. Also, Jason Giambi is about the become the Rockie’s designated pinch hitter.

by richwol1 on Jan 23, 2010 6:48 PM PST reply actions  

Baseball bat performance

I recently wrote a nontechnical article for The Baseball Analysts entitled “Comparing the Performance of Baseball Bats.” See http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2010/01/comparing_the_p.php.

by pobguy on Jan 25, 2010 1:50 PM PST reply actions  

Thanks, pobguy!

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 25, 2010 5:31 PM PST up reply actions  

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