Self Righteous Indignation Can Kiss My....
by jeffro on Jan 12, 2010 9:29 AM PST
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Hey guys, I just finished watching the Costas/McGwire version of Frost/Nixon and... well some stuff bugged me.
Some of the things he said bugged me. Some of the stuff that the MLB Network talking heads said bugged me.
I am interested in hearing what everyone else thought.
First, as I was driving home from work, I made the mistake of listening to KNBR. Ralph Barbieri and Tom Tolbert were ripping on McGwire, they agreed with a caller who basically said that McGwire was the reason Barry Bonds used steroids, or at least didn't challenge that assumption. I switched to NPR at this point, fuming.
Because I was already pissed off about the whole thing, I decided to wait until 10 PM to watch the tivo'd interview (my wife rules for tivoing it for me).
At the very beginning of the interview, it was clear that McGwire was being contrite. He was geniuniely emotional. I could relate to the guy. He had made a mistake and he was coming clean.
Once Costas started asking "Could you have hit those home runs without the roids?" I knew exactly what was coming in the post game show. I was dissatisfied with Mac's answer, too.
First, I do believe that he thought the reason he took steroids was to be on the field and not to gain strength. The hand eye coordination defense is common amongst baseball players and, even though they are wrong, I think they do believe it when they say "the steroids can't make me a great baseball player."
What dissatisfied me about this answer was not that it was inaccurate from the "performance enhancement" perspective. What was wrong about it to me was that McGwire just said he took steroids to stay on the field and, seeing as how it would be impossible to hit home runs from the dug out, he had to be on the field to hit home runs. By that logic, of course he wouldn't have hit those home runs without steroids.
I also didn't like his "I wish I hadn't played in the steroid era" answer. I think he was trying to say that testing should have been around before, and he did say that. He should have left the "steroid era" out of the discussion and just said "I wish there had been testing."
The only other time that I felt disatisfied was when he said "I never talked to other players about steroids." Jason Giambi was his protege. I really have a hard time believing that he never talked to G about roids. Even with that said, I respected Mac for saying that he had never talked about it with other players. He was trying to protect people. I think it was wrong to protect other people... the truth is what it is and will eventually be known. But, still, I could understand.
The rest of the interview, which was the vast majority, I saw a husband, father and baseball player who was being open and honest about his experiences. And he should be commended for being the ONLY ONE of his stature to actually do that. We can quibble that A Rod was as contrite (though I saw his press conference and the tears appeared fairly crocodile in that case). But no Bonds, no Sosa, no Palmiero, no Manny, no Ortiz, no nobody else.
This is what made me the most angry, the fact that no one else has even been close to as contrite, when I then watched Tom Verducci and Ken Rosenthal rip into McGwire. It wreaked of CYA. These guys wrote about baseball at the time that the steroids era was in full swing and it appeared clear to me that they had waited for 12 years to find someone to blame for their inability to tell the truth back when they should have.
So, in closing a big "kiss my ass" to you Verducci and Rosenthal. Maybe next time you will do your damn job instead of waiting 12 years to pounce on the only guy with enough guts to actually talk about it on national television.
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This is a good post
but can you explain this part:
First, I do believe that he thought the reason he took steroids was to be on the field and not to gain strength. The hand eye coordination defense is common amongst baseball players and, even though they are wrong, I think they do believe it when they say “the steroids can’t make me a great baseball player.”
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Yeah
I was pissed when I wrote this, ha!
Oh… you want more?
What I meant to say was that I believe that athletes in general think that taking steroids is a way to recover from injury. I believe that McGwire’s primary motivation was to get and then stay healthy.
Of course it added strength. We all know this.
Barry Bonds, Jason Giambi and your average Joe down the street will commonly say “Steroids don’t make a great ball player. They don’t give you great hand eye coordination.” Which is bunk. There are several studies that prove steroids impact your fast twitch muscle that are key to to hand eye coordination.
To put it another way… Even this idiot (me) knows that if you hit 30 Home Runs and 15 fly outs to the warning track, steroids can make you a 45 Home Run guy.
But I believe that a lot of athletes who say that “steroids don’t make a great ball player” have convinced themselves that it is true.
When Clemens personal trainer
Brian McNamee, stated he injected Clemens nearly 40 times (being an ex-cop, he of course kept some dirty syringes to corroborate his story), he explained in interviews that Clemens was motivated to use PED’s to help his body bounce back from fatigue and injury as if he was 20 years younger in age. It is possible that Big Mac is rationalizing his steroid use that was striclty motivated (in his mind) by avoiding injury and playing every day with less fatigue, not to boost his power per se.
For me, after watching the interview I found myself still upset over McGwire’s self righteous behavior towards the beat-writers story about observing some sort of PED visible in his locker the year he broke Maris’s record.
Good post.
Also, I think this is the first time I’ve seen a mention of David Frost that really means David Frost.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
the "o" and "i" keys are so damned close together
and my fingers are like hams.
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury
Anyways
KNBR’s response was terrible. Most of the hypocritical MLB writers are totally off-base on this. This is my take and I find it perfectly reasonable…
1) McGwire’s response to all this, while a little late, puts him ahead of any other confirmed steroid user besides Giambi and maybe Canseco in my mind. A-Rod lied. Bonds lied though it hasn’t been proven. Ramirez was caught in the act after the policy was in place which is probably worse than lying. Palemiero lied. Sosa is still silent and pretended he couldn’t speak english in court. McGwire didn’t lie and I believed his explanation and accepted his apology.
2) People are up in arms over his belief in his stats and his statement about not wanting to play in the steroid era… I don’t blame him for having confidence in himself or perhaps even an unreasonable belief in his ability. I think we all know the steroids helped, but McGwire believes he really was that good. Thats not a lie, its just his opinion and we have to accept that its what he believes. His statement about playing the era is because the era no casts doubt on his abilities. No one believes he was as good as he thinks he was because of steroids. And that is unfortunate. He knows his legacy is ruined and his talents won’t be appreciated because of steroids and he wishes that weren’t true. I think thats the point he was trying to make. Not that the era forced him to use PEDs or any of the other lame thoughts people are coming up with.
3) Bonds deserves all the indignation towards McGwire and more. It seems like if Bonds keeps his mouth shut people are letting him get away with all this. I don’t doubt he used HGH, which McGwire apparently only did a little of, and I don’t doubt he has lied (which McGwire has not that we know of). KNBR needs a reality check and Ralph sucks.
by DrDoom on Jan 12, 2010 10:14 AM PST reply actions 2 recs
Disagree about bonds
he is silent because he is playing a different game. He may not be persecuted, but he sure as hell is being prosecuted. He cannot say anything. He is not “getting away” with anything. He is spending about a million dollars are Very, very good attorneys to help him out of a jam. The thing is, the prosecutor fucked up so badly on this case it will likely end up with an acquittal, but so much money has been spent to “prove” he lied to the grand jury, the US Attorney can’t dismiss the case.
He may not ever come out and say I knowingly did PEDs, but you can’t fault him for remaining silent now.
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury
by Future Ed on Jan 12, 2010 11:22 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Agree
If Bonds ever admits to it, it’ll be done after jeopardy attaches and would protect him from further prosecution, and it’ll be done in such a way as to ensure that he can’t be prosecuted.
But don’t count out his indignation towards the world and Bonds never admitting to it, HOF or not.
by timed exposure on Jan 12, 2010 11:42 AM PST up reply actions
A few years ago
when bonds was in his redunkulous stage, he wouldn’t allow MLB to use his name for fantasy baseball. You could draft “SF Left Fielder” but not Barry Bonds. I bet the Hall of fame will be like that.
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury
that would be funny to put him in the Hall without mentioning his name
"Sniff some krazy glue, and start a religion!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jan 12, 2010 12:11 PM PST up reply actions
Rose is different
but that is another thread. I say no to rose.
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury
Agreed.
Betting on games is about 3425234542352435234 times more harmful to the sport than PEDs.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jan 17, 2010 3:00 PM PST up reply actions
That would be awesomely funny.
Have a plaque with his picture and the caption “SF left fielder”.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
They should do that for Rose
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
I'm with ya.
“Cincinnati Utilityman”
"Sniff some krazy glue, and start a religion!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jan 12, 2010 11:40 PM PST up reply actions
"1919 Chicago Outfielder Without Footware."
by timed exposure on Jan 13, 2010 12:09 PM PST up reply actions
That's funny, but anybody who admits to taking money to throw games = not allowed in HOF
The support for Shoeless Joe over the years has been absurd. It completely ignores the facts of the case.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jan 17, 2010 3:01 PM PST up reply actions
John Dowd
good old John Dowd.
Jack Cust: Nothing but true results….
by Athletics fan and runner on Jan 13, 2010 3:45 AM PST up reply actions
In my MLB 2005 game,
I’m in 2011, and the Athletics have made the WS every year, and won it every year except 2009.
Our payroll is large, and we re-signed Tim Hudson, and every year he wins 20.
I renamed my stud rookie pitcher Brett Anderson, and he’s kicking ass too.
"Sniff some krazy glue, and start a religion!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jan 13, 2010 1:19 PM PST up reply actions
I renamed my rookie pitcher
Gaijin_Suketto and cut him.
But he didn’t go on the DL.
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury
What are you talking about?
I’m ALWAYS on the DL!
Dude?
Duuuude!
Duder!
"Sniff some krazy glue, and start a religion!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jan 13, 2010 1:46 PM PST up reply actions
I remember reading an article at the time
on why he wouldn’t be in video games, fantasy baseball, or baseball cards. Basically he split from the MLBPA (The Union) when they wouldn’t renegotiate his cut of revenues from products involving his name or likeness.
When you’re Barry Bonds, hitting 73 home runs, who needs a union?
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
Bonds
Bonds is currently doing what McGwire did in front of congress, sort of. Keeping his ass out of jail.
Bonds, in his Grand Jury testimony admitted he used the Cream and the Clear but said he didn’t know they were steroids. Ironically, he said he thought they were arthritis cream. Anybody heard the one about how steroids help you stay on the field by helping you recover from injury?
The rub on Bonds is that everyone else who was involved with Conte and Anderson knew exactly what the Cream and Clear were. Thus the implication that he lied.
He can’t come out and admit it at this point without losing a federal case that is pending against him.
I don't disagree with you
I’m just saying Bonds’ actions are worse in that I think he did lie under oath which McGwire never did. I know why Bonds is being silent and I think its the wise move, but I still don’t like him or the whole situation and feel he should be castigated more than McGwire.
Because someone says
they only used a little or for a limited purpose doesn’t make it true.
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury
Given that he has admitted to so much else I give him the benefit of the doubt
I give everyone the benefit of the doubt. I am ready and willing to forgive any of them. The fact is that McGwire’s transgressions are less than those of others based on what we know, but he is getting a lot of negative press because people think he is delusional which, to me, should not be a factor.
A lying piece of shit doesn't ever deserve the benefit of the doubt.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Jan 17, 2010 3:02 PM PST up reply actions
I have the disadvantage of only having seen "highlights" of the interview, but...
…the answers that I did hear made McGwire look like a total schmuck. I thought Costa’s questions were tough, but obvious and necessary. I’m not interested in “fluff” interviews. I came away with even less respect for McGwire than I had before.
What are we at the park for except to win? I'd trip my mother. I'd help her up, brusher her off, tell her I'm sorry. But mother don't make it to third. ~Leo Durocher
Watch the whole thing
then write… :)
The point being that the bad answers are all that anyone is showing because that has become the media meme.
the non-sports media attention seems much more favorable towards Mac
Clips on the local newscast, CNN, even MSNBC show the tearful parts more than his rather circuitous answers. Of course, that may not matter so much, but I time will help him now.
I mentioned this on the original thread, but it’s also clear that McGwire isn’t as articulate as, say, Michael Taylor. I mean come on, he asked Costas what “hastened” meant at one point. Perhaps it was swimming around in his mind that being on the field made him hit homeruns indirectly, but he didn’t put two-and-two together. He answered the questions posed of him truthfully, IMO, but not very analytically. Not being analytical about it is hardly a failure.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Jan 12, 2010 10:51 AM PST up reply actions
I haven't watched any nonsports media after seeing Brian Williams pull a docuhebag move.
Where is this kind of indignation about those of us raising future Governors? You know, when a Governor went missing to have an affair with a TV Reporter in Argentina? And lied about it?
Not to get political because I really don’t have much of a say in South Carolina elections, just to say… “Brian your double standard in regards to politicians (you know, leaders) versus athletes is ludicrous and your self righteous indignation can kiss my white ass.”
I hadn't seen that
What a dick. I used to like him, until I read that shit.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Jan 12, 2010 11:17 AM PST up reply actions
Ok, I've read the whole transcript, at least...
A few thoughts…
- The “bad” questions and answers were individually complete, and stand on their own anyway, so I don’t think that’s a fair defense.
- Having read the transcript, he comes off a little less “schmucky”, but still like a schmuck nonetheless.
- Having read the whole transcript I don’t think I missed that much by having watched only the highlights on several various news channels.
- His apology was filled with conditions. “I’m sorry, but…” kind of tone. No ‘buts’. If you feel your reasons are justified… which is what he says in his qualifications in spite of his “it was stupid” rhetoric… then there are no qualifications and no apology is necessary.
- He talks about confessing what people didn’t know. Ummm, Mark, hate to say it, but we already knew. Well, maybe all of us except Tony, anyway.
- While I believe him regarding the reasons for taking them (“benefit of the doubt” may be a better way to phrase it), I think he’s lying… lying to himself when he says they had little to no impact on his production.
- He left so much unsaid, and many of his answers were vague, in this interview that spring training is still going to be a media circus for him.
What are we at the park for except to win? I'd trip my mother. I'd help her up, brusher her off, tell her I'm sorry. But mother don't make it to third. ~Leo Durocher
Wonder...
if your/any opinion would be different reading the transcript vs. watching the video. Often the emotion, non-verbal communication, etc., doesn’t come through in just a raw transcript.
There’s some interesting scholarship in the judiciary around this very issue. For ages, appellate courts have argued that they often know better than trial judges and juries because they only get the transcript, and aren’t biased by non-verbal information. But some studies have shown that this method is more likely to produce incorrect conclusions for the very reason that the non-verbal communication is missing. For example, the appellate judge can read a witness’ testimony, but the jury that heard it also saw that he was shifty-eyed and tentative, etc.
I haven’t read the whole transcript or watched the entire video, so I won’t comment with regard to the McGwire interview, but I thought the issue was interesting.
by timed exposure on Jan 12, 2010 5:58 PM PST up reply actions
I thought the
standard was always deference to the trier of fact when it came to credibility?
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury
Hmmm....
Maybe I’ve got it backwards. I passed the bar long enough ago (and successfully not practicing! – I happily chose an “alternative” career path) that I may have forgotten what I’m talking about. And I’m working on zero sleep last night, so… maybe I’m just wacky. So if you’re practicing or studying for a class or the bar, don’t rely on me.
This abstract speaks to some of these issues – and I’m pretty sure I remember from law school that there’s more scholarship on this issue.
And I’m also caught without a Lexis-Nexis password to make this more informative. Apologies.
by timed exposure on Jan 12, 2010 6:54 PM PST up reply actions
Don;t get me wrong
I don’t think Appellate judges are any better at deciphering witness testimony that a trial judge or jury. I will read the link when I can. Thanks!
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury
I thought of that.
In this case… for me… McGwire came off a little better in the transcript than he did on the portions of the video I saw.
I think it can cut both ways. Sometimes shy people who avoid eye contact are accused of being insincere when they’re very sincere. Sometimes the best liars can look you in the eye and convince pretty much anybody. There are times when written blog posts are incorrectly interpreted due to the lack of voice and facial expressions.
I tend to think it’s six of one, and half a dozen of the other. Individual anecdotes are easy to find either way.
What are we at the park for except to win? I'd trip my mother. I'd help her up, brusher her off, tell her I'm sorry. But mother don't make it to third. ~Leo Durocher
The whole concept of "bias" in the law of evidence is, at this point, ridiculous
It’s based on an Enlightenment-era notion of “rationality” which is completely at odds with everything we now know about human cognitive science.
Shawn Spencer: "I’m receiving a transmission from your husband. Really more of a voicemail, if I'm being honest. A status update. Perhaps a twitter."
Burton Guster: "I believe it’s called a tweet."
Shawn Spencer: "There’s no way I’m saying that."
It depends
The concept of actual bias (e.g., some personal stake in the outcome of the case; an antipathy towards a party that would absolutely preclude an impartial verdict) is critical to a fair adjudication. In other respects, though, I agree with you.
by Ray of Lite on Jan 13, 2010 11:26 AM PST up reply actions
Judges absolutely have biases that they do not and can not control
the Rules of Evidence are written in such a way that engenders bias upon the trier of fact.
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury
Please explain (though I realize we're going far afield here)
The rules of evidence give judges a tremendous amount of discretion (as to whether an item of evidence is admitted or not, etc.) The extent to which the rules themselves reflect certain social biases or policies is subject to debate, but a judge has a whole lot of leeway. How a judge rules (esp. viewed over the long run) is likely to reflect his or her biases (e.g., pro-prosecution, pro-corporation, or whatever).
At any rate, if PT’s point was (and I certainly may have misread it) that the law presupposes archaic notions of rationality, reasonableness, and other fictions of objectivity, then I agree.
by Ray of Lite on Jan 13, 2010 12:02 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah, far afield
Maybe I am just taking any opportunity to base the courts. I do agree with PT that the reasonable man standard etc has little modern application.
The evidence code is bias as well, I think. The permissiveness of the bench to allow expert witnesses with very little challenge (as an example) is part of the codification of daubert. The chipping away of hearsay because of certain high profile cases is another example.
Judges having to stand election are terrified of making rulings that hit the paper, even though 99% of them will be reelected without challenge.
Like you said, far afield. I will stop.
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury
Oh... KNBR...
Giants’ station… Giants’ fans… Bonds’ apologists… to be expected.
What are we at the park for except to win? I'd trip my mother. I'd help her up, brusher her off, tell her I'm sorry. But mother don't make it to third. ~Leo Durocher
I’ve been doing my best to avoid the post-admission baseball writers. But its hard, I like to read the sports sites, and its all they’re talking about right now. I think the worst part of all of this has been the smug satisfaction some writers are taking in all this. The whole “see, we told you he used steroids. We knew all along and you didn’t listen to us!” It’s disgusting.
Even worse than that might be all the sanctimonious, self-righteous douchebags who all along were saying “Mark just needs to come clean and come out of hiding. Tell the truth, apologize, and people will forgive you.” And now that he has, its all “Mark has confirmed our suspicion that he is an awful human being. He cheated all of us, and should be run out of town with pitchforks.” That kind of reporting just drives me up a friggin wall.
Also, I wouldn’t listen to KNBR if I was paid to.
Sometimes the impossible can become possible if you're AWESOME!
by ZeroIndulgence on Jan 12, 2010 10:46 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
I think you bring up an excellent point about sportswriters. I saw Buster Olney on ESPN this morning. He called into question Mac’s staetement that steroids weren’t a topic of discussion in the clubhouse back then. Olney basically said he was lying, and that he (Olney) had heard it discussed in clubhouses when he was a beat writer. To me, this makes Olney as complicit as anyone in baseball who was juicing. If Olney had knowledge of steroid use, as a sportswriter I think he should have been obligated to report it. Since he didn’t, I think it is hypocritical of him to now question McGwire’s integrity, as tarnsihed as it may be.
To quote Olney: “I heard this topic talked about in clubhouses alot”
"The whole world is fueled by bullshit… What? The kid asked me for advice on his science fair project so I’m giving it to him." - shitmydadsays
And you kept your mouth shut Buster
so fuck you
by jeffro on Jan 12, 2010 10:55 AM PST up reply actions 11 recs
GOD DAMMIT PEOPLE TURN THIS GREEN.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
jeffro's on greenies?
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Jan 12, 2010 1:33 PM PST up reply actions
Just once, I'm sure.
What are we at the park for except to win? I'd trip my mother. I'd help her up, brusher her off, tell her I'm sorry. But mother don't make it to third. ~Leo Durocher
Wow
sorry… Buster Olney is another douchebag I hate reading. Heyman, Olney, Rosenthal… they can all pound sand as far as I am concerned.
What is sad… I liked Verducci before this stuff.
I am left with Jeff Passan at this point. The only voice of reason in all of baseball media.
Gammons was decent too
He didn’t rip on him so much last night on MLBN, but I haven’t read any of his written comments so far.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Jan 12, 2010 11:04 AM PST up reply actions
Marcos Breton basically blamed everyone for it, from players to writers to fans
Hard to disagree, to be honest.
Marcos Breton: McGwire takes the hit, but it’s our fault, too
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Hey! Marcos Breton is my really good buddy's brother!
Nice work Marcos!!!!!!!!!!!!
Small world, eh?
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
I dunno that I'd give sportswriters that sort of moral obligation
You think a beat writer 15 years ago should be castigated for not putting his career on the line when he’s done nothing wrong himself? Why do you think he should have been obligated to report it?
And while I’m not a huge ESPN fan, Olney’s been very consistent on his stance on steroids with respect to records, accolades and awards as far as I’ve read.
It was much more likely to enhance their career as a journalist
if they wrote a piece about it. They didn’t necessarily have to name names if they were trying to keep their job, but no one was even doing general commentary on it back then. Even as things were breaking out no one was really stepping up. They all waited until they were forced to then did a “Yeah!! You shouldn’t do that. I saw it too!” only 10/15 year too late.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
I'm pretty sure Ann Killion wrote a piece about her suspicions on steroids
years back before she left the San Jose Mercury News. IIRC, she mentions how the steroids thing being “the elephant in the room” that nobody wanted to talk about….this followed the whole “Barry Bonds/Game Of Shadows” thing.
I’ll see if I can dig it up somewhere…
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
The Game of Shadows was published in 2006
Olney was a beat writer throughout the ’90s.
Also, if you’ve read Olney, you’ll note that he’s been fairly consistent on his steroid stance. His point here wasn’t that McGuire was wrong for doing steroids, it’s that he’s still somewhat lying – even as he makes his apology. That requires no moral judgment on the original act, only that lying in-and-of-itself is bad.
It's called journalism
There are ways to write a story without calling out specific individuals. But to answer your specific question, yes he was obligated to report it. That is the job of the press.
But the truth is, I think it is bullshit for someone to come out and castigate McGwire for not telling about what goes on in a clubhouse because of something he heard that went on in a clubhouse but didn’t say anything about.
I think that's an awfully idealistic stance
First, he’s a beat writer for a specific team. So if he starts writing about “random players” he heard talking in the clubhouse, well that’s not very hard to pin down now, is it? They stop talking to him, he’s got no stories that are even vaguely interesting, and boom – he’s out of a job.
Second, since when do we expect sportswriters to write about the negative personal aspects of athletes’ lives? When’s the last time you read a beat writer talking about how “random players” were driving drunk that didn’t involve a ticket, arrest or accident? Or abusive domestic situations – which we see the results of occasionally in the NFL, but rarely(ever?) hear about outside of that.
Anyway, he’s castigating McGwire for lying here, not for not being a hero back in the day. If you “come clean” about something, but are still lying as you do so, are you really coming clean?
Whatever. It isn't idealistic to expect people to do their job
I took Olney to be castigating McGwire for not telling who was talking about it in the clubhouse… which would have been the very next question. Olney could have just told a columnist about it and let him write a “Does it Seem Like Steroids are Invading Baseball?” piece.
Either way, I agree that McGwire shouldn’t have said it was never discussed as I clearly stated :
The only other time that I felt disatisfied was when he said “I never talked to other players about steroids.” Jason Giambi was his protege. I really have a hard time believing that he never talked to G about roids. Even with that said, I respected Mac for saying that he had never talked about it with other players. He was trying to protect people. I think it was wrong to protect other people… the truth is what it is and will eventually be known. But, still, I could understand.
Clearly, McGwire is to blame for the steroids era on some level. I think Tim Brown of Yahoo wrote a pretty good piece about this yesterday. But so are the people whose job it is to cover the sport and who turned a blind eye.
I am not here to assign percentages of blame. I am just disgusted by the lack of credit where credit is due and fixation with ripping on McGwire. It was a very unbalanced “post game show” and the aftermath is focusing on just the negative.
by jeffro on Jan 13, 2010 10:42 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
He also mentions Wally Joyner...
Saying that Joyner would be upset because he started out as a better player but ended up worse, I assume because of the roids. When was Joyner Better than McGwire? Starting in ‘86 (McGwire’s first full year and Joyner’s second) McGwire’s OPS was never less than 50 points higher, twice being around a full 100 points higher, in his first 4 years.
by SuperBean250 on Jan 13, 2010 6:55 AM PST up reply actions
Wally Joyner
He had a high batting average though?!?!?!?!
by jeffro on Jan 13, 2010 9:02 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Great post Jeffro.
These sanctimonious, self-righteous and hypocritical writers can beat it. Where were they to question and defend the integrity of the game at the height of the era? What bothers me more is that McGwire, the only one who completely came clean and admitted to using for more than 10 years, is getting hammered, whereas ARod, Pettitte, FP Santangelo, etc gave half thruthful admissions and seem to get off without much criticism.
More importantly, where are these same writers to confront the continued steroid and HGH use in the game to day. They act as if the testing program implemented by MLB has solved the problem. It has not.
by 33SwisherSweet on Jan 12, 2010 11:20 AM PST reply actions
It wasn't 10+ years ago
But there was this, in 2002. And this, I guess. Verducci was one of the first to bring it into widespread circulation.
These are just ideas off the top of my head. But it’s not like (as many people seem to think) Game of Shadows came out and then the Mitchell Report and every journalist suddenly hopped on a bandwagon. A lot did, I’ll agree, but it’s not to the same degree that people think.
"The key to staying on top of things is treat everything like it's your first project,
like it's your first day like back when you (were) an intern." - Notorious BIG
Drew Magary's awesome when he's not talking about poop.
"Sniff some krazy glue, and start a religion!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jan 12, 2010 11:42 PM PST up reply actions
I was wondering the same thing Jeffro - I posted this in BBG's thread before I read your post.
McGwire said no one else knew about his PED use but Giambi was like his right hand man. Giambi even talked about how McGwire helped get him in the weight room. I find it hard to believe that both of them worked out together and both of them took PEDs but never talked about it with each other. I also found a quote that mirrored what McGwire said last night.
Giambi told the newspaper. "That stuff didn’t help me hit home runs. I don’t care what people say, nothing is going to give you that gift of hitting a baseball."
I also wonder if McGwire called Giambi before making the announcement? I know Giambi didn’t talk specifics about what exactly he did but he did admit doing something wrong. I guess he also only admitted to it because of the leaked testimony to grand jury in the BALCO trial but he still had some experience with talking to the media about it.
You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}
I love Giambi and forgive him
As if he needs my forgiveness.
But he pulled a lame ass move saying “I should never have done that stuff.”
We live in a world that doesn’t honor truth anymore. And that fucking sucks.
Sorry, I haven’t dropped this many f bombs in years.
But I think back to listening to Ralph Barbieri and Tom Tolbert praising FP Santangelo in an interview for his contrition as they all then teamed up on Adam Piatt for telling the truth. I lost a lot of respect for FP in that interview. He was lapping up praise for being honest and then cursing Adam Piatt for doing the same thing…
Dishonesty pervades our society, to the point where “rats” are blamed for what imperfect human beings have done.
In all honesty, I don’t have the time for anyone else’s lies when I supply plenty.
Hey jeffro!
If it makes you feel any better, I met FP Santangelo….
and he’s 100% Asshole! Fuck him, too!
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
The funny thing about the "steroid era"
Is that there does not appear to a single player besides Canseco who has roided since day 1. Bonds & A-Rod were both HOFers before they got into it. Sosa, Palmeiro & McGwire were clearly not before they started juicing. I fully believe McGwire was not juicing during the 80s or when he hit 49 in 87. I also believe he in decline as a player in 1991, when his wOBA dropped to .326 from 87’s .410.
I think Mark McGwire and Richie Sexson are similar hitters (maybe Sexson had more doubles power), and McGwire was what would happen if a regular, workaday slugger (such as Sexson) took steroids. Mark was a one dimensional player who used roids to post gaudy numbers as commissioner Bud Selig turned his head, as he was too busy watching the fans come back to the game after the problems of 94-95 became a memory. The entire problem can be traced to Selig not doing his job, but thats for another day.
At the end of this one, McGwire is what he was. He used steroids to save his career and put up better numbers. Those numbers are tarnished and he doesnt belong in the HOF. Same goes for Palmeiro and Sosa. Bonds on the other hand, still deserves to go in, as you actually ignore his career post 1999 and he’s still a worthy candidate, same with A-Rod. Both those guys were always going to go into the HOF anyway, they just elevated their impressive numbers into legendary ones.
The one guy in all of this that is the most interesting case is: Ken Griffey Jr. Chosing to be injured almost every year past age 30 instead of juicing like McGwire to both stay healthy and increase his numbers is going to look the very best and he is potentially going to be a first balloter because of it, even though his career numbers in this longball/roid era arent as good as others.
by PL78 on Jan 12, 2010 12:50 PM PST reply actions 2 recs
So you believe them on their timelines?
I don’t. It is sad, but I assume they all did it way more than they would admit.
And why do you believe that KG Jr. didn’t do it? Steroids can lead to soft tissue injuries just like those that kept Griffey out as much as they can help you recover from workouts.
The Hall of Fame debate is a joke from my perspective… “If you did it then you are out, unless of course I think you started at a different point and had good numbers before that.”
Unfortunately, this is exactly how baseball writers think. So, yeah… Bonds will be in while other guys who put up similar numbers under the same conditions won’t.
Are you saying
if Griffey Jr. juiced he would have revered from breaking his wrist earlier? His leg?
Later years there was more testing. earlier in his career he busted things. Its not the same.
Although, he is a tea tottler, so I would exclude him for that.
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury
They talked about Griffey last night, too.
He sure seems to have come back from a lot of injuries to put up the numbers he has, don’t you think?
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
And Sexson
Dude had more than one 40 plus HR season during the steroid era… He obviously never tried the stuff.
HOGWASH
his wOBA has had a natural career arc though
there was never really a huge spike or anything, unlike McGwire’s bizzare up and down then UP one. Plus Griff came up in 89 as a teenager, no way Canseco’s influence had reached out of Oakland yet. He came back easily from broken bones because the bones healed, his injuries werent really that severe outside of being forced to miss time.
So you buy the meme
Canseco started it all. I think it is naive to believe that considering 1. weight lifting in baseball had been going on for a long time and 2. steroids were in every other sport as far back as the 1970’s.
God Bless You Dennis Eckersley
From the Chronicle today:
“Good for him – he can finally let it go,” Eckersley said. “I don’t think Mark gives a (s-) if he goes to the Hall. But now he can sleep at night.”
by jeffro on Jan 12, 2010 1:13 PM PST reply actions 3 recs
Eck is pure class.
Also, for those who are saying that McGwire wasn’t that good before steroids.. He was very very good… he got hurt.. and the steroids helped him back into the game.
The fact that people seem to forget is that McGwire and Sosa saved baseball. Because of the strike people weren’t going to the games and when McGwire and Sosa excited the fans again.
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
"I dont think Mark gives a shit"
spoken like someone who doesn;t have to worry about hall of fame votes.
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury
I was one of those people.
I was mildly interested after the strike, but refused to go to games. 1998 got me excited again. I’m not sure if the HR race was the primary reason I got excited again, but it was one of them.
What are we at the park for except to win? I'd trip my mother. I'd help her up, brusher her off, tell her I'm sorry. But mother don't make it to third. ~Leo Durocher
That just means he's a real person.
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
Once when I was a kid
I was lined up to get Eck’s autograph. When he appeared, all us kids started crowding around him and yelling. Eck quickly quieted everyone down by saying loudly: OK, hold on, I’ll sign the fuckin’ things!
And he did.
he's a good guy.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Jan 13, 2010 2:21 PM PST up reply actions
My favorite Eck story is the time he and Bill Lee ended up in a gay bar in the 70's
and when Eck realized it, he supposedly dropped his glass of wine on the floor and it landed upright without spilling a drop.
Of course, Bill Lee says, “Who cares? They’re just fags…” (not a slur at the time)
"Sniff some krazy glue, and start a religion!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jan 13, 2010 3:26 PM PST up reply actions
that's awesome!
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Jan 13, 2010 3:34 PM PST up reply actions
The Steroids also
helped him break Marris’s record. That very likely meant a significant loss of future revenue for Maris’s family. Maris didn’t have 10 million dollar a year contracts like McGwire, he made more money selling cars than playing baseball. McGwire and Bonds diminished the value of the Maris name. Can we put value on the money lost by players held back in the minors who were on the verge of being good enough to make it to the majors, but didn’t get their chance because a guy making 10 million dollars and pelting a bunch of HR’s was able to stay on the field thanks to performance enhancing drugs? I’m sorry, the whole “I took them for medical purposes” line is a cop out. Even if he did take them just to stay on the field, as Jeffro stated, that directly lead to his accumulation of counting stats like HR’s. I wish one of these guys would just be honest and say I took the steroids so I could make millions of dollars. I’d have a much easier time believing that.
by oakballnack on Jan 13, 2010 6:57 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
You want us
to feel bad for adults no longer being able to profit off the achievements of their deceased father?
by timed exposure on Jan 13, 2010 12:54 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
"First, we exhume the body..."
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Jan 13, 2010 2:22 PM PST up reply actions
yep
if you were Marris’s kids, you’d feel pretty bad. It’s more the principle of the situation. If McGwire had said “I wanted to make millions of dollars, that’s why I took the steroids” I would have a much easier time believing him than having to listen to some BS about how he was just doing it for medical reasons, as if it was for the love the game. I’d appreciate a certain measure of honesty when it comes to these contrite revelations, otherwise, why bother apologizing? I mean, I do think he has remorse, but the song and dance about medical reasons really seems like a bunch of bull shit.
I completely disagree
There have been many athletes who have said exactly the same thing. They believe it. They minimize the strength gains int heir own minds and try to make it the truth that it didn’t help them get stronger, internally.
It is sad to lie to yourself. But they do it. And they buy it.
No, the song and dance about medical reasons really isn't bullshit at all
Because it was a very real reason for not just McGwire but others as well. That was part of why people took steroids – to recover from things faster.
I think they’re mistaken if they expect everyone to believe they don’t think they were getting a strength benefit as well, but It’s completely reasonable for them to figure it helped them get healthy again faster.
I also don’t think this had anything to do with McGwire figuring he’d make boatloads of money because he took steroids.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
I think you've nailed it 80%
and he’s lying to himself (and by default, the rest of the baseball public) the other 20%.
"Sniff some krazy glue, and start a religion!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jan 15, 2010 1:46 AM PST up reply actions
Agree.
There’s a false sense that steroids have two different, competing uses. First that they help in developing strength. Second that they’re used to recover faster from injuries.
But they’re actually two different sides of the same coin. They help in the development of strength because they help your body recover faster. You’re able to spend more time in the gym lifting weights because the steroids are helping your muscles recover from the crazy workout you did earlier in the day/the day before.
by timed exposure on Jan 15, 2010 10:14 AM PST up reply actions
Self-riteous indignation can go the other direction, as well.
Just sayin’. ;-)
What are we at the park for except to win? I'd trip my mother. I'd help her up, brusher her off, tell her I'm sorry. But mother don't make it to third. ~Leo Durocher
A transcript of the interview, for those who are interested...
http://www.mercurynews.com/top-stories/ci_14167902
What are we at the park for except to win? I'd trip my mother. I'd help her up, brusher her off, tell her I'm sorry. But mother don't make it to third. ~Leo Durocher
My favorite golfer kicks even more ass.
"Sniff some krazy glue, and start a religion!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jan 12, 2010 11:45 PM PST up reply actions
your favorite golfer is evander holyfield as well?
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury
How come Costas doesn't talk in complete sentences most of the time?
by timed exposure on Jan 12, 2010 6:06 PM PST up reply actions
Most people don't talk in complete sentences most of the time.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Most of his questions aren't even complete thoughts!
Could hit 70 HR without steroids….
On baseball trend of HRs, citing Bonds?…
On Canseco’s book more times count go into bathroom stall to shoot each other up ?…
On why testified as did before Congress?…
if you take two cars at Indy isn’t it possible you were a naturally great home run hitter and might have hit 45 50 60 home runs all sudden uguys popping 660 70 home runs?
by timed exposure on Jan 13, 2010 12:59 PM PST up reply actions
Anybody else find it curious that he apologized to pretty much everybody EXCEPT the fans?
What are we at the park for except to win? I'd trip my mother. I'd help her up, brusher her off, tell her I'm sorry. But mother don't make it to third. ~Leo Durocher
They/we just forced a very private person to go on national televsion
and crucify himself for public display, because that’s what our sick, fucked-up culture demands before he can actually come out of his gated community. He plays baseball. BASEBALL. A game. The stakes of him using steroids to become questionably better at a game are NOTHING.
His taking steroids or not taking steroids 10-15 years ago affects my life about as much as the dog shit on the lawn five houses down from me.
I don’t need an apology. Quite frankly, I think we may owe him one for forcing him into that dog and pony show everyone insists upon analyzing now.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Jan 12, 2010 5:22 PM PST up reply actions 11 recs
as well you should be.
apology accepted.
I had to pay that guy for removal, you know.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Jan 13, 2010 1:19 AM PST up reply actions
God damn I love you right now.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Yep to your Yep to his God damn I love you right now.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
tx, all.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Jan 13, 2010 1:22 AM PST up reply actions
You have it exactly backward.
First off, we didn’t “force” anything. He participated, and came back now, of his own free will.
Second, if any person or group owes nobody anything, it’s the fans, because it all comes back around to the fans. It’s the fans who pay for everything, whether it be direct ticket sales, buying endorsed products, or subsidizing playing venues. For that matter, even non-fans contribute.
But then, too many fans get all starry-eyed with what is almost some sort of idol worship, and thus refuse to stand up for themselves and their own interests and become apologists for their idols.
What are we at the park for except to win? I'd trip my mother. I'd help her up, brusher her off, tell her I'm sorry. But mother don't make it to third. ~Leo Durocher
If nothing was forced, then why couldn't he just come back and coach
and never address the media about steroids?
"Sniff some krazy glue, and start a religion!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jan 12, 2010 11:48 PM PST up reply actions
Okay, then look at it from another angle.
These two men (McGwire and Sosa) not only broke an almost thirty-year record (that just barely broke another thirty plus year record), they flew past it. Regardless of what anyone says about Cal Ripken (yeah, right), the reason a great many of us returned to a game that was dead to us after that strike was McGwire/Sosa. Yes, he participated in that.
It was a lie, yes, but it was a pretty lie that we all bought into. All of us, because we wanted to believe in it. We wanted it to happen. The league wanted the fans back—the owners and the “commissioner” and the players and the writers—they wanted things to go back to the way things were before they overturned the apple cart. And McGwire and Sosa gave it to them, gave us all a pretty story to draw us back to the flame. They obliged.
They were all complicit. We were complicit, if we’d opened our eyes at all. Anyone with even five or ten years exposure to baseball had the wherewithal to realize normal people don’t tear off 70 and 65 home runs in a season.
But now that they have their resurgence in baseball and everything’s back to normal, they’re/we’re gonna single this player out in our contrived drama for punishment, abuse, whipping and castigation.
We’re not gonna take Bug Selig to task because he can deny ever knowing about it.
We’re not gonna take the sportswriters who covered this game every day to task because they can deny knowing about it.
We’re not gonna take Tony LaRussa to task because he can deny knowing about it.
We’re not gonna take his teammates to task, because they can deny knowing about it.
We’re not gonna take each other to task because we can deny knowing about it.
We’re gonna take him to task because he’s the only one left without a fucking chair when the music stops. Brother, that ain’t right. It ain’t right to crucify this man because he lacks plausible deniability.
The fact remains though: simply because we deny it’s ringing don’t mean the motherfucking bell ain’t tolling for us.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Jan 13, 2010 1:42 AM PST up reply actions 4 recs
I would only add
It will be a loooooong time before any other player grows the balls to say “I did steroids and I apologize.” Which, McGwire did say, by the way.
To me, what he said was...
…“I did steroids, and I apologize… but I had reasons for doing steroids, and I stand by those reasons, so my apology is empty.”.
What are we at the park for except to win? I'd trip my mother. I'd help her up, brusher her off, tell her I'm sorry. But mother don't make it to third. ~Leo Durocher
Everyone has reasons for doing what they do, whether they're sorry for it later or not
It doesn’t make the apology empty, though. I don’t think you have to fully throw away justification you had to be remorseful about it in this case. We’re not talking about murder here.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Anybody tired of beating this horse yet?
Just Kidding…
I get what you are saying. I agree a little bit. The best course of action would have been for McGwire to say “I shouldn’t have done it” like he did. But he should have also said…
And “I don’t know if I would have hit 70 home runs without it and the sad thing is I will never know, because I did it with them.”
And… “I will not discuss what was said in the clubhouse. This is about me and my mistakes.”
The problem is that you hear people to this day say things like “Giambi admitted it” when he did nothing like what McGwire did… And, McGwire came across as very sincere to me.
I don’t think it is okay that he did it. I agree that it was a mistake. I don’t think he would have hit 70 bombs without it. I don’t think that he is innocent in any way, shape or form.
He deserves credit for even doing an interview… who else of his stature has done that? On national TV?
Fair enough.
And for what it’s worth, I don’t blame him one bit for what he said to Congress a few years ago. I am a big believer in people protecting themselves by invoking their right to not self-incriminate… even if other narrow-minded people will view that as somehow being an admittance of guilt, when that’s not necessarily the case. I only wish he had phrased it better…. came off a little too smarmy, IMO.
What are we at the park for except to win? I'd trip my mother. I'd help her up, brusher her off, tell her I'm sorry. But mother don't make it to third. ~Leo Durocher
I would phrase it that we "accepted" it, rather than we "wanted" it to happen.
In the sense that yes, we want records to be broken and the game to be exciting to us, but only under kosher circumstances. And we were not readily aware of steroids… or at least how prevalent they really were… at the time. If we had been, I think we might have felt differently. Maybe.
Even if we do share in the blame, which I can accept, I still feel that fans have the least to feel sorry for as it’s the fans that are ultimately footing the bill.
As far as this sentence in particular…
We’re not gonna take Bug Selig to task because he can deny ever knowing about it.
I take Selig, and MLB in general, to task for this all the time. This is the primary reason I changed my stance over time from indignation at the players to ambivalence. I believe that Selig and MLB not know knew… but purposely turned a blind eye… precisely because they stood to make gobs of money. Once I realized that they really didn’t care, I lost all my steam for why I should care. Now, my indignation isn;t that players indulged, it’s that we’re still getting half-assed apologies and excuses. If they’re going to do that, I’d rather they just say nothing at all.
What are we at the park for except to win? I'd trip my mother. I'd help her up, brusher her off, tell her I'm sorry. But mother don't make it to third. ~Leo Durocher
Should be...
…Selig and MLB not only knew…
I hate when I do that.
What are we at the park for except to win? I'd trip my mother. I'd help her up, brusher her off, tell her I'm sorry. But mother don't make it to third. ~Leo Durocher
He could not come back without facing a firestorm
of media. It’s the way this country functions now. We gotta get more Tiger gossip. We gotta get pictures of the body. We gotta have the death toll and the emotional reaction and the pathos and we gotta suck it dry til the next thing comes along.
It’s nice you take Selig to task. But…you don’t own a televised sports network, do you? Because I see ESPN and MLBN crucifying McGwire, not Selig, not the owners, not the ex-players and certainly not themselves.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Jan 13, 2010 2:27 PM PST up reply actions
You're right, he couldn't come back without facing a firestorm, but...
…you’re also railing against basic human nature, not anything baseball or even sports-specific. People are judgmental and nosy. It just is.
Even if I did own a sports network, I’d have to give the people what they want, or else I’d no longer own a sports network… I’d be in bankruptcy court settling my debts.
Note: All your talk about “we” I interpreted as being the fans letting all those other people get away with it, hence my point that I personally do not meekly accept some their lack of action.
What are we at the park for except to win? I'd trip my mother. I'd help her up, brusher her off, tell her I'm sorry. But mother don't make it to third. ~Leo Durocher
There are a lot of ways in which the league can control
how many home runs are hit. They can tweak the balls or the bats, they can move fences, they can make little adjustments to the pitching mound, strike zone, etc. All of these things are correcting mechanisms which keep the hitting at the level where they want it in order to maximize the appeal of the game.
If it weren’t steroids creating a home run race, they could have manufactured it in some other way. That’s why I can’t get excited about the league’s “complicity” because they wanted the fans back.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
they wanted their fans back
after THEY cut their own throat, though. Surely that counts for something.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Jan 13, 2010 2:19 PM PST up reply actions
Winner Winner Processed Poultry Product Dinner!
"Sniff some krazy glue, and start a religion!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jan 13, 2010 3:27 PM PST up reply actions
Regardless of whether it's steroids or juiced balls,
it was contrived to manipulate the public back into their favor. I’m sorry, iglew, what’s your point here?
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Jan 13, 2010 2:29 PM PST up reply actions
I don't believe the "steroid home run race" was contrived.
I believe it happened on it’s own and MLB let it go because it made them money.
What are we at the park for except to win? I'd trip my mother. I'd help her up, brusher her off, tell her I'm sorry. But mother don't make it to third. ~Leo Durocher
and brought back scads of people who left after the strike.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Jan 13, 2010 3:44 PM PST up reply actions
That it did.
What are we at the park for except to win? I'd trip my mother. I'd help her up, brusher her off, tell her I'm sorry. But mother don't make it to third. ~Leo Durocher
My point is that manipulation of the public
is just background noise that goes on all the time. It’s not a reason to be indignant about steroids in particular. If it pisses you off, then you should be pissed off at the whole world, and if you’re not pissed off at the whole world, then there’s more to your irritation at Bud Selig than just steroids.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
I'm not indignant about steroids and I am pissed off at the whole world.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Jan 14, 2010 1:48 AM PST up reply actions
I've been thinking about this one for a long minute
I used to be pissed off at the whole world, but then I realized I was holding the world to too high a standard. Now that I expect less from the world, the triumphs are greater and the losses don’t hurt as much.
that, and I’m completely drunk off my ass right now with a pocket full of poker money!
"Sniff some krazy glue, and start a religion!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jan 15, 2010 1:51 AM PST up reply actions
Maybe I am wrong here
But I see twice now where I believe you are passively attacking me (and others). Once calling me self righteous and once an apologist.
That’s cool. But I disagree.
I am not apologizing for Mark McGwire. He clearly isn’t the sharpest tool in the shed and as I said in the original post… even by his own logic he is wrong to say that steroids didn’t help him hit all those home runs.
And second… calling out Buster Olney, Tom Verducci and Ken Rosenthal for covering their own asses by throwing McGwire under the bus isn’t self righteous. They knew who was doing steroids. The difference is that it is their job to report that kind of thing. They didn’t do their job and are now trying to make up for it by throwing turds at McGwire, at least partially, for not outing people. That is hypocrisy at it’s finest.
A couple points...
1- I don’t think that you are being self-righteous, per se, but I do think you are being an apologist. And you are correct that my feeling on that is more in general and directed at the group and not you or any one specific person. Having said that, I do believe it is at least partially a result of we being fans of these people, which is a somewhat natural human reaction.
Maybe I feel that I am a little more objective because I thought McGwire was something of a putz long before steroids ever became an issue for him or anybody else, so I don’t have that natural fan’s inclination to be as unconditionally forgiving. Going back as far as the late 80s and early 90s I’ve caught little hints here and there that made me think he really cares nothing for his fans (except kids, he loves kids and I give him great kudos for that), so I feel no reason to give him any additional adulation.
2- None of my comments concern the writers at all. I’m not really sure what to think of them, so I have tried to stay away from that aspect. I’m commenting on my observations of fans in general.
What are we at the park for except to win? I'd trip my mother. I'd help her up, brusher her off, tell her I'm sorry. But mother don't make it to third. ~Leo Durocher
McGwire just liked to play ball it seems
He didn’t much care for the media attention at all. I remember he was quoted back during the ‘98 as saying he felt liked a caged animal for people to gawk at during BP. So, I don’t think he was purposefully acting like an asshole, he’s just “shy” as he described to Costas.
Agree with jeffro, though – If Olney says he saw it, far from him to say McGwire should have said something and it was Olney who is good to keep quiet? Fuck that.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Jan 14, 2010 12:34 AM PST up reply actions
I can relate to that.
If I played sports for a living, I would hate the whole celebrity aspect. I mean, I would understand that if it weren’t for fans there wouldn’t be the huge paychecks, so I would have to accept it. But I wouldn’t like it.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
I can admit that I would be the same way.
I am a very private person. I would not like that kind of scrutiny. But… if I still chose to take the money and the opportunity to play, I would not whine publicly about the downside. The key concept here is “choice”… he had a choice and he still chose the fame and money.
What are we at the park for except to win? I'd trip my mother. I'd help her up, brusher her off, tell her I'm sorry. But mother don't make it to third. ~Leo Durocher
At the stadium
Absolutely. While on the job, you’d better accept the celebrity status. Off the job, not so much.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
Alot of fans are rude...
…when famous people are out with their families, eating dinner, etc., absolutely. No disputing that at all.
Still, as rude and uncalled for as it is, it’s still well known that it happens anyway, and should be factored in when making a career choice decision.
What are we at the park for except to win? I'd trip my mother. I'd help her up, brusher her off, tell her I'm sorry. But mother don't make it to third. ~Leo Durocher
I disagree
Outside the job everyone, celebrities included, have a right to not be bothered. Just because it happens doesn’t make it right nor does it mean you should have to accept it. You don’t get to be a jerk about necessarily, but you do have a right for your own life. Fact is there are people out there who didn’t ask or expect to be famous, it’s not always a choice. And even if you did want it, you also have a right to change your mind and if you think that “should be factored in” you’re not allowing for that.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
sports and movies tv
are different. TV And Movie stars have to seek out fame. Sports stars do not. They were just having fun as kids and were good at it
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury
Weren't movie stars just having fun as kids and turned out to be good at acting?
Some actors and sports stars seek out fame, and some do not. I don’t think it really has to do with the profession. There are some fantastic movie stars who avoid the spotlight like the plague (Daniel Day-Lewis comes to mind).
Falling from grace, cause I've been away too long
Leaving you behind with my lonesome song
Now I'm lost in oblivion.
I think there are exceptions
sure, for the most part actors go in with their eyes open, and some sports people crave the spotlight as well.
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury
When a person chooses to pursue a career in sports or acting...
…they know there’s a reasonable chance that they will excel and become famous. If they don’t want what comes with fame, they can choose another career path.
That doesn’t justify bad fan behavior by any means. That does not absolve rudeness on the part of fans. Yes, famous people have a right to privacy. Ok, now enforce that right. People can complain about the unfairness of it all day long, but it just is, and it isn’t going to change.
What are we at the park for except to win? I'd trip my mother. I'd help her up, brusher her off, tell her I'm sorry. But mother don't make it to third. ~Leo Durocher
I get that they should know what thery are getting into in sports
My only point is an 18 year old kid that has been playing [sport] and is good at it would be hard pressed to think, well, millions of dollars is great and all, but I choose selling carpet instead. The athlete has scouts coming out to see him.
But an actor may have a talent, but needs to more affirmatively go out and find people to pay them. The acting talent scouts are just coming on to the star in training.
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury
For acting, there are avenues within
the field where you can still avoid celebrity. So long as you stay off TV or movies, it’s very unlikely you’ll become super famous.
Even the biggest actors on the biggest stage — say, the top Broadway musical stars — still aren’t that famous. (Or rather, the only ones who are are the ones who also did something on TV or movies. I’d bet that more people know Jane Krakowski from Ally McBeal than from any of her stage work. Or Mandy Patinkin from The Princess Bride.)
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
I like the way my favorite golfer handles things...
When people treat him decent, he treats them like gold.
When people act like morons, he cuts them down mercilessly and without remorse.
"Sniff some krazy glue, and start a religion!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jan 15, 2010 1:53 AM PST up reply actions
Right, but don't forget...
…that many actors make their name and money in television and/or the movies, then choose to go to Broadway. Partially because that’s their first love, partially because it allows them to fade away from the glare of the Hollywood spotlight. Thing is, they’ve already earned enough in tv and movies to live a very comfortable and secure lifestyle, so they have that option. They’ve “gamed” the system to their advantage, in a sense. Providing they manage their money wisely, of course, and aren’t spendthrifts.
What are we at the park for except to win? I'd trip my mother. I'd help her up, brusher her off, tell her I'm sorry. But mother don't make it to third. ~Leo Durocher
That's the way to go, I think.
Make a big pile of bucks with one hit movie or TV show. Then fade away and do low-profile projects for the rest of your life. The public has a short memory, so after about a year they should leave you alone.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
People do have short memories.
Which is why we keep re-electing the same people we always complain that are always screwing us… but that’s a whole ’nother topic.
What are we at the park for except to win? I'd trip my mother. I'd help her up, brusher her off, tell her I'm sorry. But mother don't make it to third. ~Leo Durocher
Leo... you are awesome
"The key to staying on top of things is treat everything like it's your first project,
like it's your first day like back when you (were) an intern." - Notorious BIG
The media tell all these guys they have to come clean
and then when they do many of them then say they didn’t say enough or didn’t say it the right way.
To me three names stand out. Tom Verducci of the once great but now kind of sad Sports Illustrated is a sanctimonious prick and Gwen Knapp who as far as I can tell only writes columns about steroids.
Special mention has to be given to Brian Williams though. I think this jerk proves that giving the other two newscasts to women is the best idea ever.
Williams decided that McGwire had personally lied to him and his kid and he was out for blood! This jackass never asks tough questions of some of our worst political leaders but by God he was going to take down a guy who used to play a game several years ago.
I don’t like to attack people but these three snapperheads can kiss my ass!
by sirbed on Jan 12, 2010 7:01 PM PST reply actions 2 recs
Eat a lot of greasy vegetarian food first.
"Sniff some krazy glue, and start a religion!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jan 12, 2010 11:49 PM PST up reply actions
blow up your tv,
throw away your papers,
move to the country,
build you a home.
Plant a little garden,
Eat a lot of peaches,
try and find Jesus on your own.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Jan 13, 2010 1:56 AM PST up reply actions
wow... I guess I'm gonna have to check that cat out too...
I always had him pegged for a total mainstream dork…
"Sniff some krazy glue, and start a religion!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jan 13, 2010 1:27 PM PST up reply actions
nope.
FAR from mainstream. Just Midwestern.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Jan 13, 2010 2:29 PM PST up reply actions
The big FU...
should really belong to no other than Selig himself…
It is pretty telling that McGwire confessed to Congress back in 95’ (though unofficially), yet Mitchell and Selig never knew of this? /boggles mind
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
oops, yes 05....
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
by ST on Jan 13, 2010 3:52 AM PST up reply actions
Eh
Selig, er the entire MLB front office deserves some blame, first the blame goes to the players for taking it….second for the clean players/players union to let it happen, IMO. The commish falls in after that, then the media.
I pretty much agree with most opinions in this thread. I’m glad he came out finally but there are a few more questions/answers to be made. I think he will answer some, hopefully very soon so people can get over it and move on…at least for Big Mac’s sake. He really seems to believe it didn’t help his performance, hopefully he isn’t in denial. Also more details of when/how he was introduced to it. He was my favorite player as a kid and remained until his retirement, I was waiting for this time and once he became the STL hitting coach and LaRussa said he would speak about it, I figured this was coming very soon.
Gas to Chicago- $23.87 A's/White Sox Tix- $28 Watching the A's whipping the Sox in July 05'- Priceless
Get in Line on Hypocrisy
Starting with Selig, and then down through every front office, every manager (ESPN writers were openly discussing whether LaRussa’s lack of “knowledge” might threaten HIS HOF chances), and clearly the people who covered the sport, a lot of folks looked the other way. And after crowing for years about McGwire’s need to fess up, they jump him when he does. Or kind of does, as the case may be.
That said, I find the “wish I hadn’t played in the steroid era” remark to be either incredibly dense or deliberately misleading. He— and Canseco— were basically the “Steroid Era”. They and their team (our team, unfortunately) essentially ushered in this regrettable phase of the sport’s history. I don’t care for Bonds, but I absolutely buy into the notion that it was watching Mcgwire and Sosa win the fame, fortune and even outright love from the sport’s watchers that convinced him that just being the best player in the game wasn’t good enough.
And as for the notion that they didn’t help him hit home runs (which is patently untrue even based on Mac’s logic, since he wouldn’t have been able to play anywhere near as much without them and thus would have hit fewer home runs) I can’t believe that he really believes that. Not deep down. Not even knowing he always hit them before, as he was quick to point out to all who would listen. Or else why call Maris’ widow to apologize?
I don't understand
Why is it everyone thinks steroids weren’t in baseball until the late 80’s. A quote from Lyle Alzado:
I started taking anabolic steroids in 1969 and never stopped. It was addicting, mentally addicting. Now I’m sick, and I’m scared. Ninety per cent of the athletes I know are on the stuff. We’re not born to be 300 lbs or jump 30ft. But all the time I was taking steroids, I knew they were making me play better. I became very violent on the field and off it. I did things only crazy people do. Once a guy sideswiped my car and I beat the hell out of him. Now look at me. My hair’s gone, I wobble when I walk and have to hold on to someone for support, and I have trouble remembering things. My last wish? That no one else ever dies this way.
Why would it take 20 years for steroids to bleed over into baseball?
And on the Bonds stuff… That is on him. He did it. No one made him.
But I agree with everything else you say.
All in all, this is flippin’ sad.
This is a point that I have made for several years...
…that it’s ridiculous to think that steroids just magically appeared in the late 80s or 90s. I was approached about taking steroids in jr high football in the late 70s. (I said ‘no’) If it was happening there and then, then it’s incredibly naive to think that serious pros were somehow ‘pure’.
What are we at the park for except to win? I'd trip my mother. I'd help her up, brusher her off, tell her I'm sorry. But mother don't make it to third. ~Leo Durocher
I mean crap
Lance Parrish was quite the beefcake weightlifter guy in the late 70’s early 80’s. Why wouldn’t he have had access? Pat Sheridan also went through quite a transformation, as I recall, when he went from the Royals to the Tigers.
Lenny Dykstra was taking them in the late 80’s and early 90’s… Why isn’t he the reason everyone else did them?
Santa's on PEDs?!
Now THAT’S news.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Jan 14, 2010 11:39 AM PST up reply actions
Technically, it's the reindeer.
How else can he get around the world in 24 hours delivering presents for all the good little boys and girls?
by LoneStranger on Jan 14, 2010 12:35 PM PST up reply actions
His sled and bag are too.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
Hey, if PEDs give flying powers, sign me up.
Falling from grace, cause I've been away too long
Leaving you behind with my lonesome song
Now I'm lost in oblivion.
I just scored a touchdown
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Jan 14, 2010 2:33 PM PST up reply actions
Hi!
(waves furiously at monitor)
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Jan 14, 2010 3:51 PM PST up reply actions
I would love to see an Adult Swim update of Pepe Le Pew...
That would be one fun fu**ed up show!
"Sniff some krazy glue, and start a religion!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jan 15, 2010 1:55 AM PST up reply actions
Pepe would have a harem of skunks, but still chase after the cat.
And he’d call them bitches.
by LoneStranger on Jan 15, 2010 12:39 PM PST up reply actions
why must I be like that?
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Jan 15, 2010 12:40 PM PST up reply actions
why, sure!
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Jan 16, 2010 8:29 AM PST up reply actions
I was watching the cable today... you know, like you do...
and there was a show on about Acid. I was stoked and settled in to watch a nice little 60’s psychedelia retrospective, but all they did was dissolve pennies and etch instrument panels.
Needless to say, I was quite disappointed.
"Sniff some krazy glue, and start a religion!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jan 14, 2010 3:37 PM PST up reply actions
acid was fun.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Jan 14, 2010 3:51 PM PST up reply actions
It's possible those days might be behind me, too.
William S. Burroughs said that once you can replicate a particular drug’s effects in your personal meditations, then you don’t need to take that drug again.
"Sniff some krazy glue, and start a religion!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jan 15, 2010 2:01 AM PST up reply actions
heh. nope.
But I’m glad I’m getting some sort of laugh thinking about McGwire these days.
I do hope that the fantasies he spins aren’t different from the fantasies he spins during the season, when we all know he’s going to be badgered by the press (rightfully so) in every city he visits during the season.
Nick Swisher is handsome.
I loved watching McGwire.
He has always been a great favorite of mine. However, I don’t believe him for a minute when he says the only reason he used PEDS was for his health. He wanted the bulk to hit that ball and I am so disappointed that he just didn’t admit it fully. I think he had every right to refuse to talk about the steroids to congress. I far prefer that to him flat-out telling us lies. I was embarrassed for him. Even so I will always remember him fondly because his years on the team were some of the best baseball watching years for me as a fan. I am glad the crowd gave him a standing O in St. Louis when he appeared at their fanfest today.
I think he meant well but kind of showed he's a dumb jock
Is that mean and judgmental? Sorry. Nothing personal, he’s obviously a good guy, but let’s not make excuses for anybody and comparing McGwire’s willingness to come clean is irrelevent to me, it doesn’t justify anything.
This is what he should have said=I originally took steroids to recover from injuries that were putting my career in jeopardy. I knew what what I was doing was wrong, but it helped me just play the way I knew I was capable of playing therefore I justified my use. I believe I would have achieved all those great numbers with or without roids, but I will not blame the fans and media for having their doubts and I except whatever judgment the fans have for mr since it is there game. I love the game of baseball and I’m sorry to have disrespected it in any way, but I just wanted to play. Sincerly Big Mac
If he said that I would have totally bought it.
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