Greener Grass, Episode 3: San Jose Specifics Begin to Emerge
So, before I do this, I have to say... This is the place to really get the dish on developments in the A's quest for the grail (or new stadium).
A long time ago, I rambled on and on about markets in which the A's might play and then I made up a sequel about two specific cities in the market in which the A's already play... and then one of those two municipalities went and released an Economic Impact Report.
The frog in my pocket and I are back to wax profusely, if not profoundly, on what this report says about the A's plans.
First, there is always speculation about if these Economic Impact Reports can be trusted. The fundamental question is always "Does building this stadium really benefit the local community?" The answer is generally "No" even though the reports says "Yes." There is a great deal of explanation at this site. But why is the answer No?
In a nutshell it has to do with how the stadiums are paid for. Here is a table that shows the percentage of funding for each of the recently built MLB Stadium that is "private" and "public."
So what we have here is 21 stadiums, and only 4 were built with more private than public money. Simply put, the greater the public investment the less likely that the economic activity will be a net positive for the community. All those fans a spending money, they are going to have to spend A LOT of money for the tax revenue to increase enough to offset the tax revenue spent on the stadium.
Another thing to consider here, is that evaluating the economic impact also requires an understanding of whether or not all that money being spent by those money spending fans is actually new to the City.
In both of these respects, San Jose has a huge advantage over most of the stadiums on the list. First, the stadium (if it is built) in San Jose would cost approximately $460M (long ago I suggested it would be about $450M plus land acquisition to make $550M total). The stadium itself would be privately financed. Ray Ratto made some offhand remark in a column recently about the A's seeking public funds, but it turns out that is to build a Parking Garage in the area that would be used for Sharks games, A's games and High Speed Rail, etc. I think that will be needed regardless of a new baseball yard.
Second, in a sharp contrast to all of these stadiums above... This stadium would be built in a different city than the prior stadium. This means that some portion of the fans going to San Jose in the potential future are not coming to San Jose today. The EIR speculates that 50% of the fans coming to the A's games would be net new money spenders in San Jose. We, the frog in my pocket and I, think that is a conservative estimate.
The one area that seems a bit of a stretch is the number of new jobs created. The EIR calls out over 900 post construction jobs. That includes the A's front office staff, but not the players. I don't know what a more realistic number might be, but that just sounds pretty high.
The next thing that is sort of important to note is the estimated size of the stadium and number of fans included in the money spending fan calculations.
Another table! This one about new stadium attendance trends.
The EIR is based on a capacity of 32k and an average attendance of around 24k. That column called "Fifth Year Number" tells us, me and the frog in my pocket, why the 32K. But we both think that the 24k estimate is a very conservative estimate because it is basically the A's average in Oakland over the past few seasons. So we imagine an initial uptick from 24k to 32k and then a stabilized number somewhere around 30k.
So far, we would have to say the positive numbers projected in the EIR are actually underestimates (which is good, we think).
A couple other things that are important to note. First, we expect the number of premium seats to decline in a new San Jose yard. What you ask? Decline? Isn't the idea to get more boxes and club seats.
We present... Another table!!!!!
The A's have a lot of premium seating right now. So much in fact, that they probably wanted to tarp those things off more than the third deck. What jumps out at me in this table is that both the A's and Marlins have way too many premium seats (maybe because they play in football stadiums?). I would expect the A's to have something similar to the Giants premium inventory in a new yard, and they will have some innovative premium products like mini suites. These are those sort of changes that will help with the overall revenue stream from the stadium... The things that help get the payroll up to Chicago White Sox territory!
And now... for our last table!
I know some folks are going to be concerned that a new stadium will result in most of us being priced out of the market. Especially with the smaller capacity. I look at the table above and think that perhaps we shouldn't be so scared. Smaller inventories of the premium seats and the corresponding rise in prices for those premium seats will make the most expensive season ticket prices much more expesnive. But we believe, me and the frog in my pocket, that the impact will be to actually drive overall prices to look more like the bottom row on the chart... the MLB averages.
So, In summary... the EIR for San Jose is not complete bullcrap. It is actually fairly conservative as far as the total economic growth (though probably over estimates the number of jobs created after the construction period). Second, it doesn't appear that the new stadium would price most folks out of the market. And last, I'd love to compare how this would differ in Oakland but there isn't much available by way of what the plan is in Oakland. If anyone knows, email it to me and I won't rat you out.
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37 comments
Comments
I'm guessing
that nobody has been running with the plan of moving the A’s into AT&T Park and the Giants down to a new ballpark in SF. :)
by mk on Sep 3, 2009 5:08 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
thanks, btw
twas a fascinating read. pretty surprising to see the a’s way up there in average ticket price.
by mk on Sep 3, 2009 5:26 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Probably because the number of cheap tickets are now a much smaller part of the overall amount available
But in general the closer tickets are still cheaper than what it is for most other teams.
The Oakland A's: Pissing off fathers of disappointing baseball players who still managed to be better than their dads (charter club members: Tom Grieve & Ed Crosby)
Last of the Ninth - Photography
by Flashfire on Sep 3, 2009 9:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah what does a field level seat behind home plate cost in oakland?
$83 or something? that puts me a few levels up and to the side at yankee stadium
by jlanning17 on Sep 4, 2009 7:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Diamond Level is, what, $250 I think?
MVP seats go up to about $55, but with them tarping off the upper deck you have a higher ratio of the mid-range seats with fewer under $10 (bleachers only at this point). So, while overall the seats are still cheaper than most other places the average is higher because there is a smaller percentage of the cheapest ones than there are at other places and as large as the field level bowl is those add up in the average.
The Oakland A's: Pissing off fathers of disappointing baseball players who still managed to be better than their dads (charter club members: Tom Grieve & Ed Crosby)
Last of the Ninth - Photography
by Flashfire on Sep 4, 2009 8:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My seat two rows directly behind home plate
is $40.
The A’s ticket average seems strangely high.
by RLangford on Sep 5, 2009 1:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's really not strange at all
Take a look at what I’ve written here about the number of seats around $10 (bleachers and plaza reserved only, now, $9-13) relative to everything else (about $20-50) and how many more of those seats are there and it makes sense. There are a lot more of those seats relative to most other ballparks so it drives the average up even though overall tickets are still inexpensive compared to so many other places.
If you take a look at the Giants, they have a pretty good number of seats in the $10-18 range, which is all of their upper deck and bleacher seats. Those may not sell out but they help drive the overall average down because the percentage of higher-priced seats is less in comparison. Even a majority of their field level seating is only $35 and the most expensive seats are just a small portion of what’s there overall.
The Oakland A's: Pissing off fathers of disappointing baseball players who still managed to be better than their dads (charter club members: Tom Grieve & Ed Crosby)
Last of the Ninth - Photography
by Flashfire on Sep 5, 2009 10:08 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hope someone (Jeffro?) will continue to follow and post about these developments.
Many things have to fall into place for us to get a new stadium in either city!!
"Baseball is dull only to dull minds." Red Barber
by BERRYJO on Sep 3, 2009 5:42 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks.....
"Baseball is dull only to dull minds." Red Barber
by BERRYJO on Sep 3, 2009 6:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I haven't read the report yet.
I am skeptical about the $130 figure. But I like this post.
by Future Ed on Sep 3, 2009 6:15 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm shocked to see the A's have the 8th highest price average
I always considered A’s games cheap.
by TerrySteinbach on Sep 3, 2009 6:26 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Another source for this data
is Team Marketing Report Fan Cost Index. I think it gives a truer picture of what a fan can expect to pay at the stadium. The table above is from the EIR.
by jeffro on Sep 3, 2009 7:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was surprised that the A's average was ...
higher than the Giants. I am glad that you posted this Jeffro. It was interesting to read.
by IM4Oakgal on Sep 4, 2009 12:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the info jeffro
Some interesting stuff to be sure. I’ve seen games at 12 or so baseball stadiums and it always seemed like the A’s had some of the cheaper prices so I was surprised by the high average.
I did sit right behind the backstop in Kansas City once for less then $50 and I think that ticket would have cost me my first born at the new Yankee Stadium.
I still don’t see the A’s moving anytime soon and I sure wish this current group of future ex-owners would focus on the now a bit more. Take off the tarp and lower the prices. The A’s have always had blue collar fans so cater to them.
by sirbed on Sep 3, 2009 6:41 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
It's an interesting read.
I am, however, highly skeptical of the claim that 50% of attendees will be coming from outside of SJ; that’s highly optimistic. Geographic and transit realities would suggest that number would be, say, halved.
Stadium’s still too damn small.
Rickey has spoken. Keep the Athletics in Bump City.
by LeSaboteur on Sep 3, 2009 6:52 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
You know
How many fans do yout hink come from Oakland at A’s games now? What percentage of Season Ticket Holders? In 2007 it was 8%. I don’t know what it is now.
Two things of note, and I am not disagreeing with you because this is all hypothetical. 1st the San Jose site has excellent transit access from everywhere but the East Bay. Cal Train, Light Rail and two Amtrak lines. 2nd, within a 21 mile halo (a number I have read that most regular ballpark visitors live within) there are plenty of toher cities for fans to come from.
Personally, I’d be surprised if the season ticket base for a stadium in San Jose was made up of more than 25% San Jose residents. They’d come from Fremont, Milpitas, Sunnyvale, Mt. View, Los Altos, Palo Alto, Menlo Park, etc.
by jeffro on Sep 3, 2009 8:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
SJ is easily accessible from places on the 680 corridor as well.
Those fans that come from Tri-Valley will find it doable, as well. If you could get to a light rail station in North SJ it makes it possible for people currently on the BART lines to get there off 880.
"Baseball is dull only to dull minds." Red Barber
by BERRYJO on Sep 3, 2009 10:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
2016
I would think by 2016 you could take BART to Milpitas and the grab a light rail train from there.
by jeffro on Sep 4, 2009 8:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
One can hope.
It took forever for BART to get to the Tri-Valley and it is still not our as far as it could be!!
"Baseball is dull only to dull minds." Red Barber
by BERRYJO on Sep 4, 2009 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Everything about SJ...
…is speculative aside from a larger population base, and are reasonably more affluent on a per capita basis. I have the same numbers you have, and those numbers say all of Santa Clara County had roughly 10%. For an entire county to have only 2% more than Oakland proper, well, that doesn’t bode well for the rest of the county suddenly increasing its season ticket holder rate by 15% because it’s suddenly in SJ’s backyard. If there were a great percentage of season-ticket holders already established in the area (read: the 49ers) this might be a concrete argument.
The rest of the A’s fanbase is fairly evenly spread out on that same 21-mile halo in the East Bay. Who’s to say that moving the stadium location 6.4-miles closer (roughly the distance between the Coli & Downtown Oakland) to a greater portion of the current population won’t attract an additional 5,000-odd casual fans per game who want to booze it up before & after? JLS already has a core of businesses, and plenty of infill business could feasibly be established throughout the port area and downtown Oakland. Nothing mentioned in that EIR suggests that those numbers can’t benefit Alameda County, and the City of Oakland. Or, does SJ somehow deserve the $130-million in yearly revenue?
It’s very possible the SJ A’s would draw people from lower Alameda County, and that part of the Peninsula that really isn’t on the Peninsula, but I suspect the vast majority of those folk and companies are going to continue to trek North. With a greater population base (and one that will feasibly grow larger than SJ & SC County) currently here, it’s a crap shoot either way. You’re attempting to attract new money, while cutting off, let’s say, two-million people who you want to turn into fans of the Gnats.
Southbound on the 880 is marginally better than the Northbound slog, but for that 8% of Oakland season ticket holders, and the rest of the established base in the East & North Bay, it suddenly becomes economically unsound to have season tickets if you can only reasonably expect to use them on the weekends. In the two years that I’ve been back here in Oakland, I have seen roughly 60-games; a move to SJ cuts that down to, say, ten, because I’ll never make it on time except for weekends. So: established fanbase? New money? Toss up. Wolff is gambling on a more affluent crowd to come out on a regular basis, when population is not a guarantee of attendance.
Example: Cook County, IL. It encompasses the City of Chicago, and has an estimated population of 5,294,664; it’s completely linked by various forms of rail, with top-notch freeway access. Yet, the Cubs cannot sellout Wrigley Field when the team is struggling. Yes, it was the hottest ticket in town for the past couple of years, but right now they can’t give bleacher tickets away. $50 bleacher seats were reduced to five bucks (scalpers), and people still didn’t want them. Watch the games, and you can easily see that the announced attendance is clearly about 10,000 off. You may have that ticket revenue to inflate your numbers, but that discretionary spending that comes with being in your seat is gone.
Despite this, Chicago is still a better “sports town” than SJ will ever hope to be. The drop-off in attendance when the SJ A’s will probably be even greater. Those people in Fremont, Menlo Park, and Tri-Valley will start to wonder weather or not they want drive, pay to park, and spend an ’ish load of money or cut their losses at the ticket? I suspect the latter considering that baseball is a 162-game marathon. Those casual fans are going to start to look forward to football, basketball, and hockey seasons.
I just realized how long this was…
I look at 19,000-fans as something to build upon, not erase. I can only speculate about the numbers, but it’s a crapshoot that you’re hoping to make-up with new money. Will it happen? I don’t know.
Rickey has spoken. Keep the Athletics in Bump City.
by LeSaboteur on Sep 4, 2009 12:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh...
…and SJ has to put it to vote. Does NIMBY win the day again? If SJ is going to attempt to give the A’s the land, I suspect some groups will torpedo the project.
Rickey has spoken. Keep the Athletics in Bump City.
by LeSaboteur on Sep 4, 2009 12:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It doesn't seem that is the approach
It looks to me like the idea is for the City to lease the land back to the team. I think, they will have an advisory vote anyway and my feeling from the “Good Neighbor” sessions in San Jose is that the neighbors are more open to the prospect as long as they get some things they would lie out of the deal. A public park just south of the stadium is one example.
by jeffro on Sep 4, 2009 8:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting
Some of the thigns that you write confuse me a bit.
I want to say first, I am not in favor of the A’s moving to San Jose or staying in Oakland as much as I am in favor of them staying in th Bay Area. Which means I root for both scenarios.
You believe having two teams that share a large portion of the same 21 mile halo is better for the league and those teams than having separate 21 mile halos with ample populations? How does where people work affect this line of thinking? I am honestly asking, not taking a position or asserting anything as the truth.
If 10% of season ticket holders come from Santa Clara County, which is about 40 miles away, not connected by BART, etc how does that not bode well? I honestly don’t get this statement.
I don’t think the comparison between Chicago and Bay Area is all that relevant. There is no city in the Bay Area that is a “sports town” in the vein of Chicago or Boston or New York.
I am all for the A’s staying in Oakland. I’d love to hear what the plan is for that to happen
by jeffro on Sep 4, 2009 8:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I work in SJ and have for over 20 years.
I remember when the Sharks first came to SJ how the city embraced their very own sports team. It somehow gave them some legitimacy as a city vs. simply a large, urban, area that used to be an agricultural center and somehow more “hick” than the other parts of the Bay Area – SJ grew up as a city. The population is larger than SF and Oakland (it is the largets city in NorCal) and could also draw from Southern SC County (Morgan Hill, Gilroy, etc). I think the same thing would happen with a another major sports franchise.
I am with Jeffro as far as rooting for the option that keeps the A’s local. I don’t get the sense that Oakland wishes to keep the team and I don’t think the city is courting the A’s by discussing other options. There is a lot of real estate near BART in the far east bay – but that’s so suburban and does not have the restaurant, or other entertainment value that a larger city does.
I for one would remain a season ticket holder in SJ. It’s just as easy for me to get there as it is to get to Oakland. I really think the key to this one is going to be what happens with the “territorial rights” question. Until that is settled – it’s all moot.
"Baseball is dull only to dull minds." Red Barber
by BERRYJO on Sep 4, 2009 4:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yankees
Private Suite $850,000 dollars? Do you get a new Bentley with that suite? Economy isn’t a struggle for everyone. Lol
by asfaninpismobeach on Sep 3, 2009 6:56 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Oh, and Lew Wolff...
…opens his yap again to Bloomberg.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601079&sid=aI_AplL8B6yM
Rickey has spoken. Keep the Athletics in Bump City.
by LeSaboteur on Sep 3, 2009 7:09 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I've been saying this for a while, but
San Jose wants the A’s, the A’s want San Jose, and it seems economically feasible enough. It makes too much sense not to happen. The Giants can bitch and moan about territorial rights all they want in the coming years, but that bridge has already been crossed in DC.
we in the losin baseball binness. and cousin, binness is a boomin.
by walk off bunt on Sep 4, 2009 1:00 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
It's probably going to happen.
I’d prefer Oakland, but I’d certainly prefer San Jose to an out-of-state move. I fervently wish there was anyone in Oakland leadership that had their shit together.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on Sep 4, 2009 3:14 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
What annoys me
Is that I keep hearing, “Hold on. They have a plan and MLB loves it! Lew Wolff and Bud Selig have been meeting with them.”
Blah Blah Blah… the process it takes to get this stuff done is long. It requires Public Comment, etc. The longer it is a secret, the less likely I believe that it exists. But we will see.
Come out with it already if you have a plan.
by jeffro on Sep 4, 2009 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's the point I'm at
Wolff wants San Jose and San Jose wants the A’s. It’s well past time the city of Oakland shits or gets off the pot. I’d like them to stay in Oakland with a real, viable stadium plan that actually goes somewhere, but there is nothing whatsoever coming from the city’s side. It’s going to take a lot more than a few well-intentioned fans touting possible sites to get that thing done.
The Oakland A's: Pissing off fathers of disappointing baseball players who still managed to be better than their dads (charter club members: Tom Grieve & Ed Crosby)
Last of the Ninth - Photography
by Flashfire on Sep 4, 2009 4:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nobody in Oakland is forcing Lew and San Jose to keep pushing back their plans
If they’re gonna do it, just do it and put me out of my misery
by cityplANner on Sep 5, 2009 9:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Eh,
I have to give Oakland some props here. First off, I have to say that from an economic and business point of view, SJ makes sense. Much more so than Oakland. Geographical separation leaving large population bases for each franchise to draw from, adequate corporate support in both regions giving each franchise leverage to sell luxury suites, strong brand identification, etc etc.
Still, for a tiny city of 400K living in the shadow of SF and the behemoth to the south, little Oaktown has given an almost unbelievable accounting for her self. She drew the Raiders back against the Mega city of LA, she kept an MLB franchise for 40 years, and still has an NBA franchise. She may be living on borrowed time, but it’s admirable that an often trod upon blue collar Oaktown is not going down without at least a semblance of a fight.
"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer
by alox on Sep 6, 2009 10:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I see Oakland bringing back the Raiders as
less the doing of Oakland, and more the wishes of Crazy Al.
It’s like the Raiders part two just fell in their lap.
by LoneStranger on Sep 9, 2009 8:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

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