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Implications of the Scott Kazmir Trade on the AL West

Last week, the Tampa Bay (Devil) Rays completed a trade sending former ace Scott Kazmir to the Angles for Alex Torres, Matt Sweeney, and a player to be named later. The player to be named later was supposedly a significant piece and the PTBNL was Sean Rodriguez who recently moved to the Rays roster. This trade has serious implications on the Angels and the AL West.

Star-divide

The first thing that we should look at is Kazmir's contract. According to the amazing Cot's Contracts:

Scott Kazmir lhp
3 years/$28.5M (2009-11), plus 2012 club option
  • 3 years/$28.5M (2009-11), plus 2012 club option

    • signed extension with Tampa Bay 5/14/08

    • 09:$6M, 10:$8M, 11:$12M, 12:$13.5M club option ($2.5M buyout)

    • $0.8M bonus if traded (for first trade only)

    • perks: use of luxury suite for 5 home games per season

    • Kazmir to donate to club charity $75,000 each in 2009 and 2010, and $100,000 each in 2011 and 2012 (if option is exercised)

    • acquired by LA Angels in trade from Tampa Bay 8/29/09

The critical part is that in addition to the prorated portion of $6m this year along with the $800k bonus for being traded, or $1,947,541, the Angles are on the hook for $22.5m over the next two seasons. So the first part of the question is what value will Kazmir provide to the Angels for the next two years. Kazmir has the warning signs of a pitcher in decline. Kazmir had built his previous success on not only being a strikeout pitcher, but being one of the best strikeout pitchers in the major leagues, coming in 2nd among qualified starters in K/9 in 2007, the height of his value. He has not done that this year. His fastball velocity is down 1.7 MPH between 2007 and 2009 and in the same time period his once strong slider is down 3.8 MPH according to Pitch f(x). Both subsequently are down in effectiveness, as his slider was twice as effective per 100 pitches last year and his fastball loses more than a run more for his team compared to 2007. Kazmir's loss of stuff is also reflected in his swinging strike rates which climbed by 6.6% in the last year and 7.6% from 2007, declining from significantly above league average to above league average. He also lost his ability to generate ground balls. After having a higher ground ball percentage than fly ball percentage in 2005, 2006, and 2007, that trend reversed itself in the last two years.

The best thing within a pitchers control that they can do to prevent runs is to get swinging strikes, and in that regard Scott Kazmir is becoming a much much worse pitcher. The 7.8% decline in K rate means that 51 more balls will be put in play, if Kazmir faces 650 batters and has a .47% FB rate and a 10% FB/HR rate, that in addition to giving up more hits he will give up 2-3 more Hrs than in the past. Kazmir has always been susceptible to the long ball but the drop in his K rate and walking more than 4 batters per 9 innings suggest that he will be a league average or below pitcher if his stuff doesn't rebound from his injuries.

One of the great things that Blez has done with SB Nation is having a player page that is updated with all of the nagging injuries that are reported. Look at Scott Kazmir's last three years.

June 26, 2009

Missed 33 games (quadricep injury).

May 22, 2009

Quadricep injury, 15-day DL.

July 19, 2008

Rest, day-to-day.

May 4, 2008

Missed 30 games (strained left elbow).

March 25, 2008

Strained left elbow, 15-day DL (retroactive to March 21).

October 2, 2006

Missed the last 36 games of the regular season (shoulder injury).

August 26, 2006

Shoulder injury, 15-day DL.

August 8, 2006

Missed 14 games (shoulder injury).

July 30, 2006

Shoulder injury, 15-day DL (retroactive to July 24).

 

Is that the kind of injury history that you want on your side going into $22.5m guaranteed after this year and $1.95m this year? To be worth his contract Kazmir needs to generate 6 WAR or so between now and the end of the 2010 season. Considering that the last two years Kazmir has been 2 or less WAR, expecting him to return to a 2.875+ WAR a year pitcher and contributing .25 WAR (being a leauge average pitcher over 5 starts) this year, seems foolish.

However, with any pitcher and especially one that has shown the disparate levels of performance there is significant risk. If Kazmir returns to his 5 WAR form from 2007 he would be worth his 2010 and 2011 salary in just one season and with a 2012 option that is cheap for a pitcher of that caliber. That being said with the injury history you see above it is also possible that a strained left elbow (which by definition is a tear) turns into a torn UCL and requires Tommy John surgery, or a series of shoulder injuries turns into a torn labrum. Therefore, it does not seem unreasonable to believe that the risk of injury going forward equals or exceeds the likelihood of a significant rebound beyond 3 WAR. If Kazmir's performance is 2.875 WAR a year going forward and .25 WAR this year, the Kazmir has no surplus value to the Angles. If, as I believe, the possible risk of injury or performance degradation outweighs the potential to outperform expectations then the contract has negative value for the Angles.

So if there is no surplus value the Angles are neither winners or losers in the strictest sense, as long as they paid nothing to acquire him and the opportunity cost of doing so does impede other acquisitions that would provide surplus value. Fortunately for A's fans, the Angels paid a high price in talent to acquire Scott Kazmir and arguably used a significant portion of their discretionary funds for the acquisition of Kazmir.

Lets look at the discretionary funds portion first.

LA ANGELS

 

 

salary+prorated bonus

 

 

 

 

 

 

Pos'n

Length / Total Value

2009

2010

10 projected

2011

11 projected

2012

Hunter, Torii

of

5 yr/$90M (08-12)

$18,000,000

$18.500

$18.500

$18.500

$18.500

$18.500

Guerrero, Vladimir

of

5 yr/$70M (04-08)+09 cl opt

$15,000,000

FA

 

 

 

 

Matthews Jr., Gary

of

5 yr/$50M (07-11)

$10,400,000

$11.400

$11.400

$12.400

$12.400

FA

Escobar, Kelvim

rhp

3 yr/$28.5M (07-09)

$10,000,000

FA

 

 

 

 

Lackey, John

rhp

3 yr/$17.01M (06-08)+09 cl opt

$10,000,000

FA

 

 

 

 

Fuentes, Brian

lhp

2 yr/$17.5M (09-10)+11 opt

$8,500,000

$9.000

$9.000

 

 

 

Kazmir, Scott

lhp

3 yr/$28.5M (09-11),+ 12 cl opt

$1,947,541

$8.000

$8.000

$12.500

$12.500

 

Figgins, Chone

inf

1 yr/$5.775M (09)

$5,775,000

FA

 

 

 

 

Abreu, Bobby

of

1 yr/$5M (09)

$5,000,000

FA

 

 

 

 

Shields, Scot

rhp

3 yr/$14.6M (08-10)

$5,000,000

$5.350

$5.350

FA

FA

 

Speier, Justin

rhp

4 yr/$18M (07-10)

$4,750,000

$5.250

$5.250

FA

FA

 

Santana, Ervin

rhp

4 yr/$30M (09-12)+13 cl opt

$3,800,000

$6.000

$6.000

$8.000

$8.000

$11.200

Oliver, Darren

lhp

1 yr/$3.665M (09)

$3,665,000

FA

 

 

 

 

Rivera, Juan

of

3 yr/$12.75M (09-11)

$3,250,000

$3.250

$3.250

$3.250

$3.250

FA

Napoli, Mike

c

1 yr/$2M (09)

$2,000,000

Arb 2

$3.500

Arb 3

$5.000

Arb 4

Izturis, Maicer

inf

1 yr/$1.6M (09)

$1,600,000

Arb 3

$3.200

FA

FA

 

Quinlan, Robb

inf

1 yr/$1.1M (09)

$1,100,000

FA

 

 

 

 

Morales, Kendry

inf-of

6 yr/$4.5M (05-10)

$1,100,000

$1.200

$1.200

Arb 1

$5.000

Arb 2

Saunders, Joe

lhp

1 yr/$0.475M (09)

$475,000

Arb 1

$2.000

Arb 2

$3.000

Arb 3

Kendrick, Howie

2b

1 yr/$0.465M (09)

$465,000

Arb 1

$1.800

Arb 2

$3.000

 

Weaver, Jared

rhp

1 yr/$0.465M (09)

$465,000

Arb 1

$4.000

Arb 2

$7.000

Arb 3

Aybar, Erick

ss

1 yr/$0.46M (09)

$460,000

Arb 1

$2.500

Arb 2

$4.000

Arb 3

Mathis, Jeff

c

1 yr/$0.45M (09)

$450,000

Arb 1

$1.500

Arb 2

$2.250

Arb 3

Willits, Reggie

of

1 yr/$0.45M (09)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Moseley, Dustin

rhp

1 yr/$0.435M (09)

$435,000

 

 

Arb 1

$1.000

Arb 2

Arredondo, Jose

rhp

1 yr/$0.41M (09)

$410,000

 

$0.425

 

 

 

Loux, Shane

rhp

1 yr/$0.405M (09)

$405,000

 

 

 

 

 

Rodriguez, Sean

ss

1 yr/$0.405M (09)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wood, Brandon

ss

1 yr/$0.405M (09)

 

 

$0.425

 

 

 

Bulger, Jason

rhp

1 yr/$0.403M (09)

$403,000

 

$0.425

 

 

 

Jepsen, Kevin

rhp

1 yr/$0.401M (09)

$401,000

 

$0.425

 

 

 

Adenhart, Nick

rhp

1 yr/$0.4M (09)

$400,000

 

 

 

 

 

Brown, Matt

inf

1 yr/$0.4M (09)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Budde, Ryan

c

1 yr/$0.4M (09)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Evans, Terry

of

1 yr/$0.4M (09)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ortega, Anthony

rhp

1 yr/$0.4M (09)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Rodriguez, Rafael

rhp

1 yr/$0.4M (09)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sandoval, Freddy

inf

1 yr/$0.4M (09)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thompson, Rich

rhp

1 yr/$0.4M (09)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Trumbo, Mark

1b

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wilson, Bobby

c

1 yr/$0.4M (09)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anderson, Garret

 

 

$3,000,000

 

 

 

 

 

TOTAL

 

 

$116,709,000

$59.950

$88.150

$42.150

$84.900

$29.700

 

*My projections are based on similar arbitration cases over the last two years and I had a 3k word post all written up Sunday night when AN/Chromium/Ubuntu's new alpha made it disappear. Therefore, if you have any questions based on the amounts of the arbitration awards (or really any questions in general), I am more than happy to answer them but I am going to cut this part of this version.*

Considering the dismal state of the economy, it is likely that the Angels payroll will be down to $110m next year. That would provide just slightly less than $30m before the Kazmir acquisition. The Angles would be lacking two starting pitchers, a starting right fielder, a starting designated hitter, back up first and third baseman, a starting third baseman, a left handed reliever, and a setup man. Kazmir's $8m represents a little more than a fourth of that sum, leaving only about $22m remaining to fill all of those positions. That makes it nearly impossible to see a return for Chone Figgins, who will likely command $7.5-$10m a season for at least three years, when Brandon Wood is a viable replacement at the hot corner. Similarly John Lackey will receive around $15-17m a year for at least 4 years and likely more, which makes his return unlikely as well since the rest of those needs would have to be filled at $5m-$7m total. There are also back of the rotation candidates within the system, Dustin Mosely, Shane Loux, and others, who despite not being very good are cheap replacements, though the Angels are clearly lacking depth.

Right field and DH do not have suitable internal replacement. Gary Mathews Jr is a below replacement rate player and Reggie Wiltis is not a major league starter. While there a plenty of DH bats available, which should depress their prices. Further, Juan Rivera has had plenty of experience in RF, which puts left fielders in play as free agents.

This suggests that getting one big bat for the outfield and letting DH be a position that players rotate through to provide rest and better catcher defense with Napoli getting lots of DH at bats with Mathis behind the plate. If the Angles sign a bat for $16m+ plus they can probably only afford at most a good bullpen arm (such as resigning Darren Oliver) and a back up 1b/3b veteran.

2011 is an even bigger problem if they have $16-$20m committed to an OF bat. The trade of Sean Rodriguez will require them to stick with Howie Kendrick through arbitration, and they will need a back up MI when Macir Izturis leaves after 2010. Closer also becomes a problem as Brian Fuentes is in an $11m option year that if exercised leaves no budget room for the rest of the bullpen which will need serious help with setup men, starting DH, negotiate extensions with arbitration eligible players, or to replace under performing or injured players.

Essentially the Kazmir trade throughly compromises their payroll flexibility, doing so for someone that is not likely to bring surpluss value beyond his contract.

The trade also gave up three of the Angles best prospects from one of the most depleted farm systems in baseball, though their 2009 draft was strong.

Here are the Sickles grades on the two prospects.

14) Alexander Torres, LHP, Grade C+: 10-3, 2.74 with a 124/63 K/BB in 121 innings for Rancho, just promoted to Double-A where he's 2-1, 3.60 with a 17/14 K/BB in 20 innings. Needs to improve command, but gets lots of ground balls and fans people.

Matt Sweeney

I gave him a Grade C due to he uncertainty regarding recovery from his 2008 ankle injury. In the book I wrote that I had him as a Grade C+ with some breakout potential if he was fully healthy.

While C+ prospects aren't a lot, the Angles entering this year have only five better than C+ prospects in their system. Sweeney was

The biggest piece is Rodriguez who Fangraphs said this about:

He’s a 24-year-old middle infielder with a ridiculous line of .301/.402/.622 in Triple-A. It comes in a hitters park where the team average line is .273/.342/.434, but Rodriguez still possesses some skills that appear to separate him from a figment of the ballpark. Baseball America had him amongst the top 10 prospects in the Angels system in their 2008 pre-season rankings and didn’t appear on the 2009 list because he received more than 150 plate appearances last season causing him to lose his prospect status.

With a 2 years of team control left and 3 years of arbitration (and a 40%, 60%, 80% salary/value model for those arbitration years) means that if Rodriguez is only worth 1 WAR for 6 years he would be providing the team the value of 3.2 WAR to the Rays which valued at $4m a pythagorean win is $12.8m in value to the Rays. Rodriguez has significant upside beyond the 1 WAR a year projection especially if he stays at SS.

In addition, the cost in prospects is very significant as it almost negates the Angels ability to make an offseason deal. Of their top prospects almost all have either been hurt, not progressed, do not have much upside, or were needed for the back of the rotation. Their strong draft picks this year cannot be traded because it has been less than a year since they were drafted. Rodriguez, Torres, and Sweeney represent some of the most valuable trading chips that the organization had, and this trade leaves them with little to make trades with going forward.

Due to the lack of surplus value in Kazmir's contract, the value of the prospects lost, and the opportunity cost for other acquisitions, the acquisition of Scott Kazmir has seriously impeded the Angles ability to compete moving forward in a much more competitive AL West.

13 recs  |  Comment 92 comments

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Sean Rodriguez....

already passed through waivers and is on the Rays’ 40-man roster

Link

good write-up!

"just a beating heart ... plasma that we'll put into our uniform." - Billy Beane

by athleticsBB4life on Sep 3, 2009 6:25 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

yeah i started this before that happened and forgot to go back to reflect that.

Chris Carter entered a villiage where an ogre had devoured all the crops and livestock, and Chris Carter asked the people of the village, "Have you no beasts of labor with which to pay tribute me?" And the people answered, "No, the ogre has taken our livestock," and with one mighty swing of his bat Chris Carter felled the ogre, and Chris Carter did proclaim, "Let my people be free," and it was so. - Aufheben

by designatedforassignment on Sep 3, 2009 6:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

And now it's on the front page that way!

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Sep 4, 2009 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Booo hoooo the people that don't read the first comment will be so distraught to learn that Rodriguez cleared waivers

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Sep 4, 2009 4:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Kazmir

This is one of those trades I don’t get. Kazmir has started over 30 games only twice, his highest win total is 13 and he has one complete game in 145 starts.

To me he’s a pretty average pitcher whose been injury prone and the Rays made a good move to trade him.

I think some in the media think of him as a name because of his trade from the Mets for Victor Zambrano who did little for the Mets and it was seen as a steal for Tampa but that was awhile ago.

If this hurts the Angels being able to keep players or make moves then it’s a great trade from the A’s perspective although I think Arte Moreno will find a way to sign a player or two to help their cause.

Good post DFA although I have to ask how the hell do you find the time to write all this or are you just a fast writer?

by sirbed on Sep 3, 2009 6:34 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I am able to write these because of my so far failed attempt to end my unemployment by monetizing time writing fanposts on AN :-P

My problem in this case was that this was done days and days ago but it got shredded by AN/my alpha browser/os on Sunday and that post was far far more complete.

Thank you for your compliments, though referring to wins as a stat with any value earns a demerit in the DFA Book of Baseball After the Enlightenment :-P

You do make a good point though that Kazmir does have some political implications that make gains in perception of the team’s willingness to acquire big names.

Chris Carter entered a villiage where an ogre had devoured all the crops and livestock, and Chris Carter asked the people of the village, "Have you no beasts of labor with which to pay tribute me?" And the people answered, "No, the ogre has taken our livestock," and with one mighty swing of his bat Chris Carter felled the ogre, and Chris Carter did proclaim, "Let my people be free," and it was so. - Aufheben

by designatedforassignment on Sep 3, 2009 7:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Big money teams can and should take risks like this

(though not necessarily this particular risk — I make no judgments on that, one way or the other)

They need high upside players and can afford to stash or acquire acceptable plan Bs if the upside players don’t work out.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Sep 4, 2009 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

This is very true

The greatest advantage that big payroll teams is the ability to hide failed risk AKA Gary Mathews Jr., Julio Lugo, Juan Pierre.

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Sep 6, 2009 11:39 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow...heckuva analysis, DFA. Recommended!

While I will never underestimate Arte Moreno’s resources and willingness to spend, I think you are on to something with the Angels lack of depth.

It seems like the Angels have survived for a few years now with their depth…specifically with regards with super-utility guys like Izturis and Figgins, who can cover pretty much every position adequately with the glove and can get on-base at a decent clip to provide some offensive value as well. They might be able to keep those two guys around for 2010, but like you mentioned, it will cost them a lot to do so, and then Izturis will be a free agent after 2010. Robb Quinlan (who quietly provided some platoon value for SCioscia the last few seasons) will likely be gone next season. The team probably wants to retain Abreu, but they are going to have to pay a lot more than the $5 million to keep him next season. Vlad will likely be gone as well, and while Morales could be a superstar in the making, I bet he regresses a bit next year and beyond. I could see them go hard after Holliday this winter, but so will everyone else, and I don’t think they’ll get him.

The team has a couple pretty good young players in Aybar and Kendrick and Rivera was a good signing, but those guys aren’t difference makers. The Halo bullpen is definitely a lot more vulnerable that it ever was in the recent past, and their rotation won’t be all that impressive if they can’t re-sign Lackey.

Basically…all of this just makes me realize that the Angels will be fairly vulnerable next season and really vulnerable in 2011 especially, when they will be paying aging OFers Hunter and GMJ a combined $30 million, Kazmir another 12 million, Santana another 8 and all sorts of final year arby-cases. Hopefully, the A’s can just formulate a solid core within the next year and a half on both sides of the ball, because the division looks ripe for the taking for years to come.

I'm never gonna do it without the fez on!

by Taj Adib on Sep 3, 2009 6:34 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Thank you for the kind words

The problem is that their team cant make substantial additions to keep it in the playoffs because its payroll is going to be very high with the dead weight of GMJ, Speier, Shields, combined with productive but still bloated contracts like Hunter’s. If I were the Angles GM I would begin a complete tear down and rebuild now.

After this year they need a face of the franchise and an elite bat to go with Morales and they won’t be able to afford one unless Moreno ponies up and puts bank on Holliday or Bay.

Chris Carter entered a villiage where an ogre had devoured all the crops and livestock, and Chris Carter asked the people of the village, "Have you no beasts of labor with which to pay tribute me?" And the people answered, "No, the ogre has taken our livestock," and with one mighty swing of his bat Chris Carter felled the ogre, and Chris Carter did proclaim, "Let my people be free," and it was so. - Aufheben

by designatedforassignment on Sep 3, 2009 7:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good Stuff DFA

Good read.

Kazmir sure has had his share of injuries.

I think the slegnA are going to have trouble signing Lackey and with all the other free agents, they have, they (hopefully) will be weakened substantially. Like it’s been said, maybe they already know they are not going to sign Lackey.

I imagine they would want to have Abreu back. Vlad seems to be a DH only now so with the economy the way it is, I imagine they would only offer him a 1 or 2 year deal, if that.

I think in their minds (slegnA), they best win it all this year as it might be their best chance.

I of course am rooting for them to FAIL.

by Trainman on Sep 5, 2009 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks

I really don’t see how they can resign Lackey or Figgins since they are of the areas of most depth and only see one of Abreu or Vlad signing if they don’t get in on Holliday or Bay and I see that being Abreu because he can play the field better.

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Sep 7, 2009 12:07 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

With their luck, I have no doubt that he will immediately begin throwing 105 miles an hour

and will win 3 consecutive AL Cy Youngs with a combined ERA of 0.75.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Sep 3, 2009 6:37 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

ERA's a little high.

"You're just jealous. You wish you had a rally animal..." -CardinalWraith

by Boonee on Sep 3, 2009 7:13 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, like how Chone Figgins and Kendry Morales turned into very good baseball players?

Chris Carter entered a villiage where an ogre had devoured all the crops and livestock, and Chris Carter asked the people of the village, "Have you no beasts of labor with which to pay tribute me?" And the people answered, "No, the ogre has taken our livestock," and with one mighty swing of his bat Chris Carter felled the ogre, and Chris Carter did proclaim, "Let my people be free," and it was so. - Aufheben

by designatedforassignment on Sep 3, 2009 7:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Or how Mike Napoli suddenly changed his last name to Piazza?

Or how Torii Hunter decided to have his best career season at age 34?

Or how fucking Erick Aybar is hitting .300 this season?

Not that I’m bitter or anything.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Sep 3, 2009 7:41 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Napoli was always suppose to hit...

maybe not this well but he was suppose to be an above average offensive back stop. Why Scioscia ever plays Mathis I will never know.

Aybar just silly though. How the hell is he a good ML SS?

Chris Carter entered a villiage where an ogre had devoured all the crops and livestock, and Chris Carter asked the people of the village, "Have you no beasts of labor with which to pay tribute me?" And the people answered, "No, the ogre has taken our livestock," and with one mighty swing of his bat Chris Carter felled the ogre, and Chris Carter did proclaim, "Let my people be free," and it was so. - Aufheben

by designatedforassignment on Sep 3, 2009 7:45 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Aybar was considered a pretty good prospect and he's a very good defender. At the plate

he’s no Jason Bartlett though. Bartlett and Zobrist are a lot more surprising than Aybar.

In 2007 BA ranked him their #61 prospect, right around Travis Buck (#50), Clay Buchholz (#51), Travis Snider (#53), Ryan Sweeney (#55), Elvis Andrus (#65), Daric Barton (#67), Gio Gonzalez (#72) and Joba Chamberlain (#75).

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Sep 3, 2009 10:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

hair

strength is in the hair

by Future Ed on Sep 3, 2009 10:49 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ive asked this out loud to whoever will listen many times over the last 2 years

“how in the FUCK do the Angels win so many games?” Their pythag is always like 86-76 but they win 100.

Last year they had great pitching and no hitting, this year they have no pitching and great hitting. I guess you can take solace in that you can spot them getting bounced from the playoffs quick again from a mile away—-they just arent as good as their record says they are.

by PL78 on Sep 4, 2009 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

GAMERS!

"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."

by mikev on Sep 4, 2009 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

They're not as lucky in the pythag sense this season

Their luck is more in the sense of “7 or 8 of their starters overplaying their preseason projections.”

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Sep 4, 2009 1:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I get pooh-poohed for it a lot, but I think

that’s actually the most interesting question in baseball right now.

I think the Angels may be the most unconventional team in MLB. But because they are not conventionally unconventional, no one notices.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Sep 4, 2009 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

What do you mean by unconventional?

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Sep 4, 2009 4:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

They do a lot of things that are sabermetrically wrong,

and yet they seem to get away with it.

I still can’t make up my mind whether I think that’s just an accident or I think they’re onto something that they’re not telling anyone about.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Sep 4, 2009 11:08 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

"Get away with it"

isn’t the right term. “Wildly successful” would be better. They annually exceed their Pythagorean win projections, often by huge margins.

I saw a stat the other day about how often they go from first to third (can’t remember if it was attempts or successes, but I think it was attempts). They had 105 or so, and the next closest team in MLB had 60.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Sep 5, 2009 9:18 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am skeptical by nature, so I try not to overstate.

I wouldn’t yet call them “wildly successful”, but yes, that’s what I’m talking about. What I find most interesting is not that the Angels W-L record exceeds their Pythagorean W-L year after year, but that the excess shows a generally increasing pattern. In 2004 and 2005 they slightly exceeded it; in 2006 and 2007 they moderately exceeded it; and in 2008 and 2009 they are significantly exceeding it. This suggests that if there is a strategy that beats the Pythagorean theorem, they are gradually perfecting it.

Honestly, I’m still not convinced it isn’t just a fluctuation. I just think it’s interesting enough to be worth exploring, and I’m gratified that with this season it is finally becoming a topic deemed worthy of discussion by the saber types (eg, this post at BTB, with plenty of links to other discussions). There are plenty of skeptics who still say it’s statistical noise, but at least they’re doing so with arguments more serious than the “Whoop-de-frigging-doo” I got here on AN as recently as this January.

Before we get to narrowly focused on the Pythagorean per se, it’s worth remembering that the Angels aren’t deliberately setting out to beat the Pythagorean. It’s not like Scioscia is saying, “hmm, how can I increase W-L without increasing run differential?” No, he’s just trying to increase W-L period, and doesn’t care what happens to run differential. But if the team happens to pursue an unconventional strategy which, unlike most successful strategies, doesn’t happen to push the run differential to the same extent, then we’re going to see the increasing discrepancy as they push more and more to that strategy.

The numbers have been crunched quite a bit, and it turns out that the entire Angels team tends to hit significantly better in highly leveraged situations. Again, many say this is luck. Similar to the argument against clutch, the reasoning is, “if they had a way to hit better sometimes, why wouldn’t they do it all the time?” Well, I don’t know. I suppose it depends on what that way is. Maybe it really is something that can only be done in small doses so they pick and choose the times. Or maybe it has something to do with having men on base (since leveraged situations are typically ones with men on base). Maybe there’s something particular about their running game that messes up the opponent’s pitchers in more than the usual way. Maybe they’ve devised a sneaky way for men on base to directly or indirectly tip the pitches to the batter.

The point is that Bill James’ pythagorean theorem is based on evidence, and applying it forward presumes that the way the game is played hasn’t changed in some significant way. If a team seems to be an exception to the pattern, at some point it becomes prudent to take a closer look and see if there isn’t some cause for the anomaly. To instead say that the evidence that run differential predicts win differential is so overwhelming that a team would have to exceed its pythag for 20 years before it’s statistically significant is exactly the sort of dogmatic thinking that Bill James always opposed.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Sep 5, 2009 10:53 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think a lot of their success stems from...

the rigorous and disciplined way the Angels run their scouting, drafting and player development programs. The team is may not pay a lot of attention to stats, but they are very good at scouting, drafting and developing the types of players that thrive in the offensive philosophy molded by Scioscia. That philosophy is in-place in all levels of their minor league system, and so by the time these players arrive at the major league level, they are well-versed in being aggressive in RBI opportunities and going 1st-to-3rd on a single, moving runners over, etcetera.

Because the organization is so committed to their way of doing things, as well as drafting fairly athletic, versatile players, I think the major league team has the ability to make a lot of in-game adjustments that allow them to eek-out a run or tow in certain situations when most other teams struggle to do so.

Then, of course, they seem to have a pretty good eye for investing in the right free agents – Gary Matthews being the one major exception – but when you look at Vladimir Guerrero’s deal, even with his last two substandard years, you have to admit that the contract was a pretty good investment from the Angel perspective, and so far, the Torii Hunter deal has worked out very well, ditto the Bobby Abreu bargain deal.

I think the rapid rise of Kendry Morales can be considered pretty lucky from the Angel perspective, but here again, the team obviously knew that he had this sort of breakout potential, which is why their signed him to a six-year deal way back in ’05 before he even played a single professional game.

My main bottom line is, and this just my opinion, the Angels are zealously devoted to their way of doing things and are ruthlessly efficient in executing that philosophy day-in and day-out. They’ve gotten lucky with a few things here and there, but I think that their consistent ability to beat their Pythag record is directly related to their systematic way of building a team that plays into Scioscia’s system.

I'm never gonna do it without the fez on!

by Taj Adib on Sep 5, 2009 12:09 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good scouting just makes you good.

That’s fine as an explanation for why the Angels have done well, but I don’t see how it says anything about their W-L to Pythag differential. Unless you’re saying they’re scouting a very specific type of player who happens to hit better in leveraged situation.

What makes the Angels interesting is not that they’ve been good for the past several years, but that they’ve been good in a way that doesn’t match the usual pattern of run differential correlating closely to win-loss record.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Sep 5, 2009 1:10 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah.

I think what I was getting at is that the Angels do in fact scout and develop players that are more successful that average players in leveraged situations. I think their organizational offensive philosophy also kind of supports those efforts as welll. How they are able to identify/teach/maintain those skills year-in and year-out is anyone’s guess.

I'm never gonna do it without the fez on!

by Taj Adib on Sep 5, 2009 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's not whether Angels players are

better than average players in leveraged situations. It’s whether Angels players in leveraged situations are better than those same Angels players in non-leveraged situations.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Sep 5, 2009 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That is a dizzying exercise in logic...

but I think I follow you…

I'm never gonna do it without the fez on!

by Taj Adib on Sep 5, 2009 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

One hypothesis I've heard about their Pythag performance

is that the back of their bullpen has been pretty bad for a few years — the hypothesis is that their RA stat is inflated by giving up lots of “extra” runs in blowout losses.

I haven’t bothered checking it out, but it makes sense to explore their RA distribution as well as their RS distribution.

Also, has anyone compared their RC to their actual runs scored? If they’ve really found some way to turbo-charge their offensive efficiency (say, by leading the league in 1st-to-3rd) then RC should understate their actual runs scored.

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Sep 6, 2009 7:19 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

There's been some discussion of that.

I don’t recall what is where, but if you follow the BTB link above it links to several other forums.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Sep 6, 2009 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am with you PL78

100 percent. It baffles me every year how this team that has NO chance at winning the World Series still manages to win a ton of games. I suppose I have to believe in the old school baseball strategies of Soscia and the fact that they hustle. Still, it is INEXPLICABLE!

by darooster on Sep 7, 2009 10:47 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hustle?

ZOMG WHY HAS NO ONE EVER THOUGHT OF THIS STRATEGY BEFORE?!?

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Sep 8, 2009 4:32 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Payroll

Most of your analysis relies on your assumption that Angels total payroll will be somewhere around $110K.

I actually find myself in complete agreement with your projection there — particularly since Moreno, unlike some other owners, really does have a solid history of keeping total payroll pretty steady from year to year.

Nevertheless, I wonder: Given that we have to rely on educated guesswork to project total payroll, doesn’t the very fact that the team did choose to take on Kazmir’s contract — which they surely didn’t have to do, and which they surely must have realized the budgetary implications of — act as evidence that payroll is not going to hold steady for 2010?

In other words, instead of reasoning, “I thought the Angels were going to have room to spend some money, but now that they’ve acquired Kazmir, I guess they won’t,” couldn’t you just as easily reason, “I thought the Angels were going to hold total payroll down to $110K, but now that they’ve acquired Kazmir, I guess they won’t”?

Again, I’m not actually questioning your $110K projection. I’m just thinking that since guessing next year’s total payroll is such an inexact science, shouldn’t we be looking for any evidence we can find of owner’s intentions, and doesn’t a move like this count as evidence?

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Sep 3, 2009 10:26 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I'm thinking they thought they'd have to sign Lackey or equivalent to a 5 year deal for $11 million/year

and instead got Kazmir for a 2 year deal with an option for that amount. Signing Lackey is a worse idea only if Kazmir gets hurt and Lackey (or whomever) doesn’t. The prospects aren’t going to make or break this deal.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Sep 3, 2009 10:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Isn't Lackey also, you know, better?

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Sep 3, 2009 10:39 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Lackey

All of the rumor mills have been churning out the idea that the Angels probably won’t sign Lackey. Given they have a high payroll limit, and given that Lackey’s been their best pitcher for a while, you’d think that it would be a given they’d re-sign him, and the speculation wouldn’t be quite this strong.

This makes me think that Lackey is gone, that the Angels actually have no chance to re-sign him, or have decided they do not want to offer a decent bid. Maybe he and Sciosia don’t get along, maybe he has problems with the pitching coach. Maybe he thinks the medical staff is incompetent. Whatever.

At that point, trading for Kazmir does make sense.

by richwol1 on Sep 3, 2009 11:13 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

no way Lackey re-signs

Bora$ client, and with the Yankees, Mets and Red Sox having seemingly unlimited payrolls….Lackey’s gunna be out of our division next year (thank god), and his replacement Kazmir, as shown in this post, isnt going to be the threat Lackey is. Kazmir throws so many pitches per inning on average, dude will rarely go 7+.

by PL78 on Sep 4, 2009 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think the payroll assumption is more than fair

The Angles reduced payroll this year, look at what Cot’s lists as their opening day payroll.

    * 2009: $113,709,000
    * 2008: $119,216,333
    * 2007: $109,251,333
    * 2006: $103,472,000
    * 2005: $ 97,725,322
    * 2004: $100,534,667

Since Moreno bought the team the payroll has been relatively consistent. The overall economic environment it is highly likely to lead to a contraction of salaries considering that labor costs are fairly inelastic since you just cant cut guaranteed contracts and the extent of the economic disaster that we are experiencing was not fully known last off season. Further most teams leave room for mid season acquisitions to add to payroll so it is likely that they will be several million bellow their $116m payroll as of right now. I am only projecting a $3m reduction in payroll which is far from a significant reduction. If you want to give them $3m for a lefty reliever thats fine but I think I am right on the money with the payroll projections.

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Sep 4, 2009 11:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sure, and like I said, I don't disagree with your projection.

But you didn’t answer my question. Is the signing of Kazmir a factor in your projection or not?

That is, if “Angels will not increase total payroll in 2010” is your hypothesis, and given the fact (which I think you’ll accept) that if it’s true the Angels aren’t planning to increase payroll they would be less likely to acquire Kazmir now, do you now treat the observation of Kazmir actually being acquired as evidence which updates the probability of your hypothesis?

This really isn’t so much a question about the Angels per se, as about your methodology for projecting payroll. That’s what I’m trying to get at here.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Sep 4, 2009 11:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

L comes between them
In other words, instead of reasoning, "I thought the Angels were going to have room to spend some money, but now that they’ve acquired Kazmir, I guess they won’t," couldn’t you just as easily reason, "I thought the Angels were going to hold total payroll down to $110K, but now that they’ve acquired Kazmir, I guess they won’t"?

I would wholeheartedly support the Angels keeping their payroll down to $110K.

by Nate on Sep 4, 2009 12:14 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Some Little League teams have higher budgets!

If Ziegler blows a save... I'll flag his next post.

by gdub171 on Sep 4, 2009 9:52 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I only just now figured that out.

Oops. K=M. My bad.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Sep 4, 2009 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm glad that the Halos took on Kazmir's big contract.

He does help them now and will be a good help for the playoffs too. Since the A’s aren’t in it this year…we should be glad that they have tied up a tidy sum in this guy.

I look forward to reading more on this discussion. You guys always have a lot of good info. Good job on the fanpost, DFA.

by IM4Oakgal on Sep 4, 2009 12:15 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Hope you enjoy making my eyes bleed and my head spins

I don’t understand why you even need to write a thesis to convince us that Kazmir is a crap pitcher. Anyone who follows baseball knows that. I skimped the rest but i noticed that you are assuming that the Halos have limited funds to improve the team in the offseason. Predicting a team’s budget is like predicting how high the federal deficit can go before we all start digging for potatoes to eat. It can go as high as it needs to be. Take the Yankees for example. You figure that they can’t possibly have the money to sign the top 3 FAs of 2009 but they did. Texeira, Sabathia, Burnett are all Yankees today. The Angels are not gonna let the puny issue of money comes between winning and losing.

by batterbatter on Sep 4, 2009 1:34 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Ya it must suck having someone point a gun to your head and make you read this.

Seriously, if you don’t find something entertaining, don’t read it, move on to the next thread, and most importantly, don’t bash the poster, especially when they put in a lot of time and effort.

Founding member of the Eric Patterson fan club.

by travdog6 on Sep 4, 2009 2:08 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks travdog6

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Sep 4, 2009 2:29 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Um if you didn't look at the Yankees last year and see plenty of spending money you are a fool

They shed $37m in Abreu and Giambi leaving alone, they actually had an Opening Day payroll of $8m less than 2008 this year.

The rest of your assertions lack warrants and evidence.

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Sep 4, 2009 2:29 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Um if you didn't think the Angels have more money to spend than you think you are a fool

Did anyone of you won the Nobel Prize for Economics? The Angels are in a huge market. Predicting the Angel’s payroll is akin to predicting the federal deficit. You don’t know how much revenues, payroll, investments, credit lines the team has. Stop making projections you don’t know anything about.

by batterbatter on Sep 4, 2009 11:09 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I do have a degree in economics thank you very much.

You have given me absolutely no reason to believe that my projections are not accurate or in line with Moreno’s past practices. I blew holes the size of Hummers in your "you couldn’t predict the Yankees spending so much last year theory. Nor have you warranted the claim that the payroll “will go as high as needed”. This is especially true since Moreno even before the economy collapsed last year said that he was not going to increase payroll from 2008 levels in 2009 which would have been needed to keep their numerous free agents. With the economy staying poor predicting a significant increase in payroll while the industry contracts without any basis is silly.

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Sep 5, 2009 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Please rememebr that some of us are more casual fans & do not follow as closely as some others here.

I will speak for myself when I say – I read these posts to learn – in my effort to know more about all things baseball. Any such post can be helpful. The audience here at AN is a broad one and I – for one – appreciate posts like this since I can not take time to follow baseball as closely as you might.

"Baseball is dull only to dull minds." Red Barber

by BERRYJO on Sep 4, 2009 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

although...

it does make me suspect that DFA might be a closet LAAAA fan…

Al: We gotta form a government for the settlement.
Merrick: Who does?
Al: Us! You and me. Come to me in a vision! You stupid bastard

by Leopold Bloom on Sep 4, 2009 6:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dude that hurts... how could you say that?

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Sep 4, 2009 11:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Etiquette note

Given the quote from Cots, it would be polite to attach a link to the attribution.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Sep 4, 2009 1:50 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I thought it was in there thanks ill edit it.

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Sep 4, 2009 2:19 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Great writeup DFA

The Kazmir trade didn’t really make sense to me when I read about it, and your research pretty much confirms that feeling.

Your assumptions definitely make the division look more wide open, especially in 2011 (which seems like the target year for the A’s to compete), and the A’s need all the help they can get.

Unfortunately, no matter how much hope all of us A’s fans have, the fact of the matter is there is a small window with which Beane & co. have to compete again before it’s time to blow it all up and do it again. If too few of our promising prospects don’t develop into ML hitters we’re pretty much screwed.

So any help from the slegnA is welcomed.

"I did nothing. I did absolutely nothing, and it was everything that I thought it could be." -- Peter Gibbons

by dtownmbrown on Sep 4, 2009 10:23 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Oh, to be young and unencumbered

Nice analysis young man, can’t wait until you are a staff writer!

"Tonto think Billy Beane need to make team full of squirrels and bears."

by OptimistPrime on Sep 4, 2009 10:51 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Yes, definitely a nice write-up!

DFA: Consider including some sort of introductory abstract to give readers an overview — perhaps something like your last paragraph. I enjoy reading your stuff.

by Razorback on Sep 4, 2009 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Reasons for the trade

1. Angels starting pitching is lacking depth even in minors
2. lackey is a FA and most likely be a expensive pitcher
3. angels shot at WS is now
4. Look at how many FA next year Abreu expensive, Figgins expensive, Vlad could be gone, and Oliver price is up. big changes ahead.
  I agree with you 100% this will hurt in long run. kazmir is a #4 starter nothing worth 10 million. Unfortunately expect them to sign FA in off season.

by Arcman on Sep 4, 2009 11:33 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

this is also a "win now" gamble

Boston has eliminated the Angels from the postseason several times. Since Kazmir has pitched well against Boston == including in Boston — they may have also wanted him to help them get past Boston this October.

by OaklandSi on Sep 4, 2009 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Awesome post.

Of course the Angles could net something like six or more top 60 picks in next year’s draft if all those guys leave, which means they could have a solid start on the rebuilding process even before they’ve officially had a losing season.

Bob Garen is incontinent

by Aufheben on Sep 4, 2009 11:53 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

You know this is just

Wow. Great job. I am optimistic that you are right in your ultimate conclusion :)

I have thought since the signing of Matthews and then Hunter in back to back years that the Angels were handcuffin’ themselves. Kazmir just adds like a third cuff for their magical extra hand or whatever it is that gives them all the luck.

by jeffro on Sep 4, 2009 12:08 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Great read, thank you DFA

"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson

by BillMoresi on Sep 4, 2009 1:55 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Your Welcome

I enjoy writing them.

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Sep 4, 2009 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

If the Angels don't sign Lackey where does he go?

I vote for somewhere in the Little League uh I mean National League as it would be nice to not see the A’s have to face him anymore.

It’s going to be a interesting off-season as the Angels have to know this division is going to keep getting better so they’ll have to spend to stay on top. If they lose Lackey and Chone that will be a different team down there in Anahiem.

by sirbed on Sep 4, 2009 2:38 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

There is always a market for high end pitching

The Mets would make some sense with the crap they have in their rotation but Im not sure you want to have $200m invested in two pitchers, the Yankees have a crap back of the rotation and plenty of money coming off of the books, the Cubs would make sense since they have about $15m coming off the books this year and a crap ton more coming off next year. The Cards are going to need a #3 but I think they are going to try to either spend on Holliday or Pujols.

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Sep 4, 2009 3:58 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Mets do make sense

With the Cubs having new owners it’s hard to tell how they’ll spend their money. The Cardinals seem to like to take guys off the scrap heap and have Duncan fix them so I doubt they’ll spend big on a pitcher.

by sirbed on Sep 4, 2009 5:12 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Duncan is likely to leave next year because of the way the org handled Chris Duncan

so they might not have the maestro next year and they will need to replace Pinero who will probably get good FA money and if youre going to spend on FA it seems that the high end FA’s perform better relative to their contract than mid rangers so you pony up the $20m extra for a much better pitcher.

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Sep 4, 2009 11:08 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think the question then would be why Lackey would sign with the Mets

That organization is a complete mess: yes, the injuries have been utterly bizarre this season, but even before they turned into the NL East’s MASH unit they collapsed in two consecutive pennant races, and have had embarrassing front-office bullshit (Willie Randolph’s comments about the racism of the NY media and Mets’ fans, Tony Bernazard’s unstable and abusive behavior). Meanwhile, the Yankees are having their best regular season in a few years, and Cashman’s off-season moves have pretty much all succeeded.

If the Mets are by far the best offer, Lackey could sign with them just for the money. But their ship appears to be foundering — why would Lackey climb on board?

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Sep 4, 2009 5:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Less Pressure

For another, the Mets do have a solid line-up when healthy, and a couple of first-rate relievers in the bullpen, assuming Putz is healthy. And the Mets really could use him. The Yankees have four solid starters in Burnett, Sabathia, Pettite and Chamberlain, not to mention Wang if he ever gets healthy again, plus who knows who making the big club next year. Having another older middle end guy is kind of silly when you’re looking at 104 wins this year, and the need for a new catcher in the off-season. And Boston has plenty of pitching as well.

by richwol1 on Sep 4, 2009 6:02 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Lackey's a mid-rotation guy

Only once has he had a really great ERA. He’s good, but he’s not front of the rotation material. The Mets desperately need a guy like that, Boston and the Yankees don’t.

by richwol1 on Sep 4, 2009 6:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree that the Yankees wouldn't really need/want him

I didn’t mean that he’d sign with the Yankees, just that he has no reason to want to play for the Mets. And FWIW assuming that the Mets are going to be healthy is a pretty big leap of faith: Putz has a “frayed” UCL and may still need surgery; Santana just had elbow surgery; Beltran is finally on a rehab assignment, but his knee might really be shot; Reyes will probably need surgery.

And again, there’s big turmoil in the front office. I know money talks, but that’s the kind of franchise that I’d stay away from if I had the choice as a player, and given the market for effective starters I imagine Lackey will have at least a couple of teams interested in him.

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Sep 4, 2009 6:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think Pettite might retire and is making bank and I think Wang is going to have health problems

I didn’t mention boston for a reason/

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Sep 4, 2009 11:09 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Rangers or Astros

That’s my guess for Lackey’s next home. He belongs in Texass.

by Colorado Fan on Sep 5, 2009 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting analysis.

As others have noted, I’m just not convinced that the Angels won’t simply spend more money if necessary. They certainly have money to spend. I’m more hopeful that Kazmir will be a black hole in their rotation a la Jon Garland.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Sep 4, 2009 3:18 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Late to the party...

But fine work, young man.

Oh I wasn’t invited to the party? Sigh.

I'm here to talk about the past.

by 67MARQUEZ on Sep 4, 2009 5:21 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

But you're invited to AN day!!!

This time I’ll make sure I say “Hi!”

"Baseball is dull only to dull minds." Red Barber

by BERRYJO on Sep 4, 2009 5:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am holding you to that! :)

I'm here to talk about the past.

by 67MARQUEZ on Sep 4, 2009 5:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Haha reading this comment right next to you at the game was funny

You know you are always invited.

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Sep 5, 2009 2:34 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

@Dad

I … am … sitting … on … the … patio.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Sep 5, 2009 10:56 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

more money

How much revenue does a deep postseason run generate? In other words, if Kazmir makes the team an extra $5-10M by getting them to the WS when they otherwise would not have gone, then does that help payroll flexibility in the future?

by RayJEdd on Sep 4, 2009 8:14 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

AIG

Arte Moreno holds 5 Million AIG stock options at 50 cents and has exercised the option at $40. Well, I guess all your projections of how much the Angels can spend next year just went out the window.

by batterbatter on Sep 4, 2009 11:30 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

What in the hell

are you talking about? I’ve never heard anything like this, can you explain and provide a link? Otherwise I consider this to be dithering poppycock.

by darooster on Sep 7, 2009 10:45 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

He's using a fictitious example to demonstrate

how little we know about Arte Moreno’s actual financial situation. I believe it’s called a “there is a not enough evidence to meet affirmative burdens” argument.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Sep 8, 2009 12:09 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

posting from my nintendo wii = lots of work.

great write-up dfa.

how the crap is tori hunter making more money than vlad? that is a pricey outfield!!

You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}

by micdog2001 on Sep 6, 2009 1:08 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Simple answer

Torii Hunter is in the second year of a contract that began in 2008. Vladimir Guerrero is in the sixth year of a contract that begin in 2004. So it’s just basic inflation.

If it’s true, like everyone seems to think, that the inflation of baseball contracts is finally going to turn around in 2010, then I suppose Hunter was lucky to sign in a peak year.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Sep 6, 2009 2:53 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

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