Ryan Sweeney Is Better Than You Think He Is
Looking over at Fangraphs, I was surprised to see that Ryan Sweeney has reached 3.6 wins above replacement. That places Sweeney a full win and a half above a league average player. Considering that the sentiment around AN often declares Sweeney as a 4th OFer, rather than I starter, I wanted to delve into the reasons why that may be the case and try to project him moving forward.
The first and most obvious reason that Ryan Sweeney is underrated is due to defense. An era of offensive explosion and new statistics that more accurately explained and valued the way runs are and were produced created an overvaluing of offense over what was considered statistically immeasurable defense in relation to offense. Now we have a contracting run environment, which makes the marginal run and thus run prevention more valuable that goes along with new and better ways of measuring defense that puts in nearly on par with offensive contributions to the game. Defense is also hard to see in a vacuum. Jeter's patented jump throw makes New York partisans and infrequent observers of our great game conclude that he is a excellent defensive player, while a more informed observer will glean from statistics or more diverse observation that Jeter's lack of range requires a seemingly great play to make what others get to easily.
I think Sweeney may suffer from the exact opposite. Sweeney has extremely long strides which makes it harder to see the ground he makes up because he doesn't look like he is running that hard. His range has been rated as excellent by UZR with a 3.9 range rating in center and an outstanding 10.7 range rating in right field. To give proper context in how good that is, UZR's range component is a counting rather than a rate stat, which means that the more plays one makes the better nominal value is. Therefore the fact that Sweeney has only spent 577 innings in RF and still leads the league (just ahead of Ichiro and JD Drew) in UZR's Range Runs component.
The other thing that I find interesting and could be coincidental is that there is an about -10 FRAA difference between Sweeney's defensive production at CF compared to RF per 150, which is what the difference is suppose to be. That would seem to suggest that if his defensive production in the corner or center is being overly influenced by luck that his numbers at both positions are being influenced at nearly the same rate. Since the range increase is uniform it makes sense that Sweeney after a full year in the bigs is taking better routes and has increased his value defensively.
Furthermore, the UZR numbers from this year give question to the accuracy of some of last years numbers especially in regard to his arm runs rating. Sweeney had a -3.6 runs runs in center field accounting for the vast majority of the negative runs he contributed from center field. Considering that RFers have the most emphasis placed on their arm to prevent first to third advancement on the longest throw from the outfield, it makes no sense that being judged against stronger throwers on the whole Sweeney faired about ten runs better. Therefore, last year's arm numbers wreak of small sample size issues. It is however likely that this year's Arm numbers are more reasonable for both CF and for RF.
Therefore, when projecting forward Sweeney it seems reasonable to expect contribute 1 WAR worth of runs at either position considering position and defense (7.5 FRAA with 2.5 positional in CF or 17.5 with a -7.5 positional). There of course are problems with this projection, it relies on UZR numbers being consistent which is not always the case. When building WAR projections with defensive numbers the precision is less than that of the hitting component. That is why I have discounted the UZR data about 5 runs/150 so that the estimate is more conservative. When combined with replacement runs, Sweeney is a very reasonable 3 WAR player if he exhibits league average offense.
What are the chances that he exhibits league average offense? Sweeney has a .322 career wOBA which is below league average. However, that number is dragged down by his year 21 and year 22 seasons with the Chicago White Soxs, who rushed him severely up to the big leagues. His numbers in his Oakland seasons have been league average or better. This year Sweeney has hit for a wOBA of .332 against a .329 league average. Those numbers aren't park adjusted making them even more impressive and worth 3 batting runs above average. Last year Sweeney put up a wOBA of .328 which was league average. The question in can these numbers be replicated going forward, because if they stay consistent or improve, Sweeney is a very valuable player.
Studies have shown that xBABIP calculation correlates the best year to year for batters, though that stat uses a lot of not readily available. Therefore I plugged in Sweeney's numbers into the qxBABIP formula which correlates second best. The qxBABIP (quick expected batting average on balls in play) calculator at Hard Ball Times believes that Sweeney has a higher than expected BABIP. However the HBT qxBABIP calculator uses SBs as an approximation of speed, and Sweeney has not run much this year and when he has he has not been very successful. Though Sweeney has not stolen many bases or run much he still has good speed which would provide the expectation that he would out preform that version of qxBABIP. The qxBABIP of .317 would seem to suggest regression moving forward which is mitigated by speed not captured by the model and the fact that this years BABIP is not a significant departure from his career norms.
Sweeney has long been knocked for his failure to exhibit the prototypical power of a corner Ofer or the gaudy OBP that makes up for it. Can we expect that moving forward? Expecting Sweeney to maintain a .350 OBP seems reasonable since he has carried one for the last two years and this years improvement in batting average is coupled with Sweeney's lowest walk rate since 2006, and both are likely to regress. Sweeney's power is likely to improve as well since he is just 24 years old a hitters prime is generally considered to be age 26-31. This year Sweeney's ISOP has improved by .018 from his 2008 and looking at his time in AAA there is certainly room for improvement toward his AAA numbers. In 2006 Sweeney had a .158 ISOP and in 2007 Sweeney posted a .128 ISOp. If Sweeney continues to improve his MLB ISO towards those AAA numbers he would be a valuable player. If Sweeney holds a .285 batting average moving forward, with a .130 ISO and a .065 ISOd, those are the components of a .285/.350/.415 line or an approximately .337 wOBA. With this years .329 league average wOBA that computes to 4 wRAA (batting runs above average from wOBA without being park adjusted like BRAA). Lets say that park adjustment ads an additional BRAA to equal 5.
Essentially when you combine 5 BRAA, 10 fielding and positional runs, with 20 runs for replacement level, Sweeney even with a UZR regression, BA regression, and slight improvement in walk rate and ISO is a 3.5 WAR player, which qualifies as a playoff level starter. Even with more regression A penny saved is a penny earned and Sweeney gets a bad rap because it is hard to see his defensive value while his offensive value is just average. Moving forward it is clear that Ryan Sweeney is likely to be an excellent player.
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Are you one of his parents?
"You know, a long time ago being crazy meant something. Nowadays everybody's crazy."
-Charles Manson
Read the Post
Did you read the post?
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Sep 28, 2009 10:14 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes... Despite the fact that he is older than me, I am Ryan Sweeney's father.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 28, 2009 10:17 PM PDT up reply actions
Related to Sweeney?
I like Sweeney, too, so I must be related to him as well in some way.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Sep 28, 2009 10:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Same here.
What you fail to understand in your joyless myopia is that baseball is the key to life-- the Rosetta Stone, if you will. If you just understood baseball better all your other questions your, your... the, uh... the aliens, the conspiracies they would all, in their way be answered by the baseball gods.
by winchester5 on Sep 29, 2009 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions
you guys seem a bit polemic these days.
Maybe you can find one made by Go F**k Yourself San Jose... -Poppy
by Leopold Bloom on Sep 29, 2009 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions
The force is strong in young Swooneywalker.
"I did nothing. I did absolutely nothing, and it was everything that I thought it could be." -- Peter Gibbons
by dtownmbrown on Sep 29, 2009 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions
im my own grandpa!
"If Bowden was a general contractor, he'd build houses with nine bedrooms, six garages, no bathrooms, and half a roof."
by DyeLongJustice on Sep 29, 2009 12:16 PM PDT up reply actions
That could go either way, I think.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
If he is
If DFA is Ryan’s father he does a lot better job arguing for his son than did Ed Crosby.
[b]More Rajai Davis & less mount Davis[/b]
Does Rajai Davis know Al Davis?
by Athletics fan and runner on Sep 29, 2009 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah but he also had alot more to work with
Since Sweeney can actually play baseball
I read the thread title as:
Ryan Sweeney thinks he is better than you.
I read it as
Ryan’s weenie is bigger than you think it is
m*****f***ing c***s***ing peanut butter and jelly!! f*** f*** f***!!!
by JediLeroy on Sep 28, 2009 10:48 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
glad my post is generating interesting discusion about the value of players.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 28, 2009 10:50 PM PDT up reply actions
Hey, I gave you a rec. What more do you want from me?
Smile analysis? ;)
m*****f***ing c***s***ing peanut butter and jelly!! f*** f*** f***!!!
YES! or to tell me im wrong but you have to pick one of the two :-P
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 28, 2009 10:56 PM PDT up reply actions
This season, Ryan Sweeney has 4.6 WAR.
4.6 Weenie-units Above Replacement, of course.
I won't heal, given time.
I won't try to change your mind.
I won't feel better in the cold light of day.
But I wouldn't stop you if you wanted to stay.
And he still goes around telling everyone he's equipped with a 6 WAR bat
The monster at the end of this blog.
Speaking of weenie bragging....
The Iron Sheik (NSFW)
by LoneStranger on Sep 29, 2009 9:47 AM PDT up reply actions
Aw, everybody knows that shyt's fake.
The meaning of life is not so much 'found,' as it is 'made.' --Opus
by The Dogfather on Sep 29, 2009 9:51 AM PDT up reply actions
Are you controlling for the fact that
all weenies are bigger when in the vicinity of you?
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
'Kay, weird
I was going to post a picture of Jon Lovitz in his “Tales of Ribaldry” outfit. So I Google image searched “lovitz ribald”. And the first result was Athletics Nation. From a game wrap thread from last season where someone posted a pic of Lovitz in his “Tales of Ribaldry” outfit. That someone being me.
I’ve jumped the shark.
where's Cousin Oliver?
Maybe you can find one made by Go F**k Yourself San Jose... -Poppy
by Leopold Bloom on Sep 30, 2009 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions
I did a quick cursory skim of some of his stats in that Daric Barton Ryan Sweeney fanpost
And came to the same general conclusions as you did, DFA. You know, for all of the bad rap he gets, he’s been roughly league average with the bat. That’s surprising. Remember, baseball players don’t follow a normal Gaussian distribution (think bell curve). Because of the large amount of poor replacement-level players and the very few amount of stars, the distribution looks more the right half of a bell curve. A league average player is quite valuable indeed.
And of course, if he ever makes good on that power potential, look out.
I won't heal, given time.
I won't try to change your mind.
I won't feel better in the cold light of day.
But I wouldn't stop you if you wanted to stay.
You are right about the league average player, but Sweeney is significantly better than that hes the 48th best Position player
He is on the outer edge of the distribution. Since I started this piece Sweeney has earned .3 WAR hes now at 3.9 WAR which is better than Kendry Morales, David Wright, Justin Morneau, Carlos Pena, Chipper Jones, Manny Ramirez, and Adre Ethier.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 28, 2009 11:05 PM PDT up reply actions
I know a lot of people have taken defensive stats into harsh questioning.
So I was focusing on his bat. And yes, including his defense, he’s been fantastic this year.
By the way, I hope you started this fanpost yesterday. That’d be a nice pace.
I won't heal, given time.
I won't try to change your mind.
I won't feel better in the cold light of day.
But I wouldn't stop you if you wanted to stay.
Friday/Saturday
I was judging a debate tournament and was bored during the waits.
I missed that you were only referring to the bat as league average, my bad. With his defense he could be a significantly below league average hitter and still be an average player because of his defense, the fact that he is likely to maintain a league average to slightly above league average bat with that defense is quite impressive.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 28, 2009 11:13 PM PDT up reply actions
That's a frightening WAR pace.
0.3 WAR in two games? Three?
I won't heal, given time.
I won't try to change your mind.
I won't feel better in the cold light of day.
But I wouldn't stop you if you wanted to stay.
well he did go 5-10 with 2 BB and a 2b.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 28, 2009 11:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Anytime a Stat tells me that Ryan Sweeney is more valuable than...
Kendry Morales, David Wright, Justin Morneau, Carlos Pena, Chipper Jones, Manny (doesn’t really count), and Andre Ethier… I just can’t take very seriously. I mean seriously, there isn’t one MLB GM in their right mind who would do a deal for Ryan Sweeney+ for any of those guys. This is where stats can bite my ass.
by Colorado Fan on Sep 29, 2009 7:16 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
What if the moon were made of spare ribs?
Maybe you can find one made by Go F**k Yourself San Jose... -Poppy
by Leopold Bloom on Sep 29, 2009 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions
We'd have been back there dozens of times.
The space program wouldn’t be hobbling along like it is.
by LoneStranger on Sep 29, 2009 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions
mmmm....ribs....
Maybe you can find one made by Go F**k Yourself San Jose... -Poppy
by Leopold Bloom on Sep 29, 2009 12:07 PM PDT up reply actions
for some reason
this whole fanpost makes me think of an old variety show skit. Not sure if it’s SNL or MADtv, but the “funky walker, dirty talker” one with the guy in the ’fro.
Funky walker, Swooney talker?
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Sep 29, 2009 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions
I think it's MADtv...
I was doing Will Ferrell doing Harry Caray, though. And that is SNL.
Maybe you can find one made by Go F**k Yourself San Jose... -Poppy
by Leopold Bloom on Sep 29, 2009 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions
He looka.... like a mein!
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Sep 29, 2009 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions
I once took a pair of binoculars and stared at the sun for over an hour.
"I did nothing. I did absolutely nothing, and it was everything that I thought it could be." -- Peter Gibbons
by dtownmbrown on Sep 29, 2009 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions
why would you do that?!
Maybe you can find one made by Go F**k Yourself San Jose... -Poppy
by Leopold Bloom on Sep 29, 2009 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions
Curiosity, I guess.
I’m curious like a cat. That’s why my friends call me Whiskers.
"I did nothing. I did absolutely nothing, and it was everything that I thought it could be." -- Peter Gibbons
I thought they called you Whiskers because you're a worrier?
Maybe you can find one made by Go F**k Yourself San Jose... -Poppy
by Leopold Bloom on Sep 29, 2009 1:32 PM PDT up reply actions
If given the choice between becoming the top scientist in your field
or getting mad cow disease, which would you choose?
"I did nothing. I did absolutely nothing, and it was everything that I thought it could be." -- Peter Gibbons
A question
Why would you refuse to believe a stat that gave you an outcome you didn’t already expect?
Not a challenge, more a curiosity, because that’s what I love about stats. They give me a different perspective on the game and often uncover amazing opportunites to be unconventional. After all, that’s how Beane made his name, scooping up guys that no other MLB GM would go after. And he had a pretty good run doing it.
The fact that Ryan Sweeney can be considered a more valuable right fielder than Andre Ethier is amazing to me. In fact I’m continually amazed by things that I thought were true and were subsequently proven to be false.
Just looking at fangraphs tells me that Ethier is a significantly better hitter than Ryan Sweeney to the tune of 110 OPS points. But Sweeney is apparently a near defensive god in the outfield with a UZR/150 of 18.6 and a Fielding percentage of 99.1%, compared to Ethier who is a butcher in RF with a UZR/150 of -13 and a fielding percentage of 97.5%.
A quick persual of the stats tells me that David Wright is hitting 0.833 and fielding 95.1% this year at 3B. Chipper Jones is hitting 0.839 and fielding at 93.1% (holy crap). Pena, despite the homeruns, is hitting at .893 and is playing a below average defensive 1B. Those are not great years from any of them.
Now there are obviously issues with how you count things and how much you count things in Wins Above Replacement, but the claim that Sweeney is worth more than some of those guys (to me at least) is certainly plausible and probably worth investigating more.
by eastbayexpat on Sep 29, 2009 7:56 AM PDT up reply actions 12 recs
+a million
And rec’d.
I won't heal, given time.
I won't try to change your mind.
I won't feel better in the cold light of day.
But I wouldn't stop you if you wanted to stay.
throw in another + a million from me. and also rec'd
What you fail to understand in your joyless myopia is that baseball is the key to life-- the Rosetta Stone, if you will. If you just understood baseball better all your other questions your, your... the, uh... the aliens, the conspiracies they would all, in their way be answered by the baseball gods.
by winchester5 on Sep 29, 2009 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions
Agreed on the post
And nice Porcupine Tree sig! Love that song.
by CapgrasDelusion on Sep 29, 2009 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions
Hah! Was wondering if anyone would recognize it.
Fantastic finisher to a fantastic album.
I won't heal, given time.
I won't try to change your mind.
I won't feel better in the cold light of day.
But I wouldn't stop you if you wanted to stay.
When a stat yields a result that differs greatly from
your expectation or from conventional wisdom, I think that should call into question both the preconceived notion AND the stat.
When WAR says Ryan Sweeney is teh awesome, it should raise two questions. You should think, “Hmm, is Sweeney maybe a lot better than I realized?” and simultaneously think, “Hmm, is it possible that there’s something in the WAR formula that is overrating a guy like Sweeney?”
I find the people who say “the stat says differently, so your opinion is obviously baseless” and the ones who say “common sense says differently, so the stat is obviously baseless” are being equally narrow.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
by iglew on Sep 29, 2009 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions 9 recs
Especially since there is plenty of room to debate defensive stats
Which is where all of Sweeney’s value is.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Not all.
Being a league average hitter is valuable when you’re paying league minimum. His defense is what makes him an above average player.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
This. Removing position and Defense Sweeney is still slightly above league average
(well what a league average player is when defense and position are considered).
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 29, 2009 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions
Sweeney, if he can ever start to hit left handed pitching
would be a very good player. If he can ever hit for “decent power” in the 16-25 HR range, I’d do backflips! His defense certainly has impressed me all year, despite what many have said on this blog, and I am no stat whiz, nor do I even follow many of the sabermetrics/stats/WAR/UZR etc…very closely. I respect their place in the game, absolutley…!
I am more a fan of watching the guys play the field, all respect to stats and all, and I’d really like to see Sweeney become a great player, even thought it may never actually happen. So, DFA, thanks for this post, as I attempt to wrap my brain around all of the different ways to measure a player’s value on paper as well as watching the boys play on the field.
Go A’s!
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
It's true, defensive statistics are a relatively undeveloped area of sabermetrics
However, it’s important to note several things.
1. They’re better than nothing.
2. They’re directionally correct.
One of the misleading things about UZR is the fact that it places a specific value on a player’s defensive worth. This number offers a patina of quantitative respectability to something which it has, almost without a doubt, measured incorrectly.
However, that doesn’t mean it’s wrong directionally. A +11 UZR player may or may not be more defensively valuable than a +10.5 UZR player. I don’t have enough confidence in the measurement to make that statement definitively.
But, there’s a pretty good chance that a +11 UZR player is more defensively valuable than a +5 UZR and a very good chance that he’s valuable than a -10 UZR player if only because they’re covering more area, making more plays, and making fewer errors by a significant margin over the comparable players.
What we know is this. Ryan Sweeney’s UZR is really freaking high. His error rate is very low. Other fielding statistics suggest he’s a very good fielder. It’s reasonable to assume that he’s been a very good fielder this year.
Even if we don’t know that value to the tenth decimal point, we can get a reasonably high level of confidence in our assessment of his capability.
The amalgam of “Ryan Sweeney is a league average hitter” and “Ryan Sweeney is very likely an excellent fielder” would suggest to me (very reasonably) that “Ryan Sweeney is an above average player.”
by eastbayexpat on Sep 29, 2009 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
I agree with all of this
Except that when we have a player, like Sweeney, where the SS is S and his value is mostly in his defense, we aren’t as sure that he’ll be good next year.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Is the sample size that small?
According to UZR, he’s been a substantially above average outfielder for at least two years and ~300 games.
The volatility in the UZR/150 is significantly from year to year ~7.1 in 2008 to 18.6 in 2009, but in both years it is quite solidly above average. If we limit it to his performance in RF (still ~160 games about evenly split over those two years), it is consistently amazing at 29.6 and 20.5.
I admit, I don’t know how many defensive chances that shakes out to, so the sample size could still be small, but the performance is very good over a substantial number of games.
We can quibble over what that exact number ought to be, whether he is a 0.5 WAR defender or a 2.5 WAR defender but I see the chance of him suddenly regressing to a average to bad defender as rather low.
by eastbayexpat on Sep 29, 2009 6:20 PM PDT up reply actions
My understanding is that two years of defense is roughly equal to one year of offense
But it might be worse.
And I agree with your last sentence completely. If he’s 0.5 WAR, he’s ok but hardly a strong starting OF. If he’s 2.5 he’s a stud.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
tango has said 3; that is possibly just an opinion
So if it’s 3, that would be 2/3 of a season of offense. It would be appropriate to regress an offensive outlier with only 2/3 of a season of stats pretty strongly. 2.5 WAA for defense is not remotely plausible. Only 1-2 guys (if that) have that true talent.
Even at .5, though, (counting position) he’s definitely a good player.
With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery
1-2 guys in the OF that is
With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery
I don't think we're disagreeing
I certainly don’t believe that he’s a 2.5 WAR defender (or if he is then the data hasn’t been clear enough for me to see it), it was more an example to make a point. And the sample size is smaller than I expected, though for lack of any other sample size it use it will likely have to do.
However, I’m still reasonably satisfied that he’s not a schlub and confident that he’s an above average Right fielder. I think that was the point I was trying to make.
To what degree he is above average is a significantly more difficult question. I imagine the correct discovery method would be a triangulation via multiple systems and then a regression based on those. But I’m lazy and would prefer others do the heavy lifting for me :)
by eastbayexpat on Sep 30, 2009 5:25 AM PDT up reply actions
I don't think we are either
And 3 makes more sense than 2 (since there are so few chances/game).
I certainly am not arguing he’s Adam Dunn out there, just that he has to be Mark Ellis good out there to be a special player. The numbers suggest he has been this year. I doubt he will continue to be.
It’s ok if he’s a useful, rather than special, player. It just isn’t as exciting.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Very well put.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 29, 2009 4:59 PM PDT up reply actions
The quantification of it is crucial though
It is not much good to take the uzr numbers and make an ordered list of the best fielders. The point is to be able to assess overall value, so that we can say to what extent e.g. Sweeney’s underwhelming offense (for a corner OF) is made up for by his defense.
His numbers this year are approaching the limits of what anyone can contribute with defense, and for that reason it is implausible that he has actually been worth that much this year, and even more implausible that he will be worth that much next year.
Certainly, he is an above average player, but taking his WAR number at face value as equaling his actual value this year is a mistake.
With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery
This is basically what I'm getting at
But put more clearly
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Definitely a fair point.
I’m speaking for myself specifically here, but it should absolutely extend to the other members of the AN Cabinet of Stat Wizardry.
Yes, when a stat yields a peculiar or surprising result, I should call both items into question. I’m comparing my previous mental conception of the player with new, numerical information, and they don’t match. Because of the disconnect, I’ve got to look at both sides equally and make a decision on which side to trust.
I know WAR. I know that it comes from a weighted combination of wOBA and UZR, adjusted for position and converted to a wins scale. I’ve studied the methodology, and I trust the underlying concepts. I agree with the stat’s creators that it’s an excellent comprehensive analysis tool of baseball performance. My trust in the accuracy of WAR is solid. My mental conception of Ryan Sweeney, however, is based on his performance in the games that I watch, whatever box scores I happen to peruse, the comments and arguments flying around here on AN, and even, possibly on a subconscious level, his physical appearance, his demeanor, the condition of his uniform, etc etc etc. My mind sucks. It isn’t capable of a rational, objective analysis without bias. And I understand that. And so I choose to put my trust in WAR over my preconceived notion.
Of course, if an argument comes up that Ryan Sweeney is totally awesome because his strikeout percentage is less than his high sock percentage, I’ll choose not to trust that particular statistic, because I either don’t understand it, or don’t agree that it’s a good tool for analysis (in this case, both). But the people that say “the stat says differently, so your opinion is obviously baseless” aren’t dogmatically and mindlessly following any and all numbers. They’re putting their trust in the accuracy and methodology of whichever statistic they’re using at the moment, and making an educated decision.
I won't heal, given time.
I won't try to change your mind.
I won't feel better in the cold light of day.
But I wouldn't stop you if you wanted to stay.
which might be a bad plan
“putting their trust in the accuracy and methodology of whichever statistic they’re using at the moment”
I’ve read wOBA and that makes a hell of a lot of sense and is pretty solid. I’ve read UZR and that makes some sense, but many underlying problems exist that are hard to even quantify. There’s a component for speed of hit, but is it an 8 hopper or a 3 hopper? Did the field suck that day whereas other days it was okay? So many issues!
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Oct 1, 2009 7:41 AM PDT up reply actions
Insightful post... care to explain why or should we just take your word for it?
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 30, 2009 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions
This is what the problem is:
What is “common sense” is it really anything more than something that has been repeated for the last 50 years? I mean how does Colorado Fan below use “common sense” determine that baseball is composed by the percentages that s/he came up with? How does a fan use “common sense” to value a player’s offensive and defensive contributions to a team? How does a fan use common sense to compare players on different teams without watching every game that both players played? It doesn’t.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 30, 2009 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions
It is indeed merely that which everyone has believed for many years
Such a sense is not perfect, but it’s not without value either. Group-think, delusion, and various perceptional biases notwithstanding, over the long stretch of time right ideas do tend to drive out wrong ones.
Ideas which survive survive for a reason. If something has persisted for a long time, there is a reason for its survival, and that reason might be that it is true.
I’m certainly not saying conventional wisdom should never be questioned (far from it), but if one’s dismissal is based on no more than “I’m right and everyone else is wrong”, then I’d say that’s not very scientific.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
by iglew on Sep 30, 2009 4:20 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Depends
Especially in baseball, most conventional wisdom circa 1975 has been proven wrong. When there are ways to test something, the fact that it has been asserted for years has no bearing. The outcome of the test is all that matters.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Actually, that's not really true
I can think of plenty of old shibboleths which have proven to be true— for instance, the fact that a shortstop who can’t hit much can still be decent if he’s a fielding whiz; the notion that hitters who spray the ball can get more hits on the same number of balls in play than hitters who always hit it to the same spot; etc etc.
If anything, I’d say that they’re just as likely to be true as false.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
But that shouldn't privilage tradition in the way that iglew suggests.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 30, 2009 5:20 PM PDT up reply actions
Sure
Whichever side is more believable— whether for the tradition or against it— ought to prevail.
I suppose if there’s a genuine tie, one could say that the traditionalists ought to prevail based on burden of proof, but that’s sort of an abstract concept.
I think what’s really going on here is that sabermetricians both validate and refute tradition all the time, but the flaps invariably occur over the refutations because when they validate a tradition, everyone agrees with everyone else and there’s no issue.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
I'll concede that I don't have any support for my statement
And we could play the example game all night. I’ll retract “most” and go for “lots of.”
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
I fully support nevermoor's use of "lots of".
Maybe you can find one made by Go F**k Yourself San Jose... -Poppy
by Leopold Bloom on Sep 30, 2009 5:50 PM PDT up reply actions
Good Question
I just don’t trust defensive stats… Plus, how many more balls is Ryan Sweeney getting that Ethier can’t get on any given day? None? Maybe Sweeney is saving 1 or 2 bases a week? Why is that so valuable?
I just haven’t been sold on Defensive Metrics being so important to the overall ballplayer. Not sure how Offense & Defense can be equally measured when they are two totally different things. And the stats used to measure defense can almost always be obsolete just based on SSS alone. I mean, every hit to RF is different. Every single one… Every pitch to homeplate is not that different at all.
by Colorado Fan on Sep 29, 2009 6:57 PM PDT up reply actions
The math isn't that difficult
A difference of about 25 runs is a difference of about 33 balls fielded, which means that Sweeney is getting an extra out roughly every 5 days.
You seem to be falling victim to the “hour hand never moves” fallacy. It’s small enough that you can’t necessarily detect it with the naked eye, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. And really, a difference of 33 hits (the difference between a .250 hitter and a .300 hitter in 660 at-bats) doesn’t accumulate any faster— that’s also about one every 5 days.
Offense and defense are both converted into runs. What’s the problem with that?
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
Offense and Defense
If they are calculated equally in WAR (I don’t have a clue), they shouldn’t be. Fielding a baseball is so much easier than stepping to home plate and laying off a pitch or hitting a baseball. Do defensive metrics give credit to great pitching staffs? Great CF’s? Great Infields? Hitting and Pitching wins baseball games. Defense saves a team (and kills a team) very infrequently.
Formula for Success:
Pitching 40%
Hitting 40%
Defense 20%
Mental Toughness 100%
= 200% Baseball
by Colorado Fan on Sep 29, 2009 9:39 PM PDT up reply actions
They are both calculated relative to a baseline of league-average
Since the average player fields like 80% of the balls hit into his “zone” (the exact percentage varies by position, however; players are judged against league-average for their position) and gets a hit only 26% of the time, the relative difficulty of the two tasks is accounted for.
Defensive metrics don’t give credit to great pitching staffs because the pitchers get credit for that. They certainly do give credit for great infields and outfields…
I mean, I’m not sure where you’re going with this. Platitudes aren’t very helpful here.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
To put some rough numbers on it
according to baseball reference, Ryan Sweeney fielded 330 defensive chances in 131 games this year. Ethier fielded 282 chances in 153 games this year. Sweeney had a fielding percentage of 99.1%. Ethier had a fielding percentage fo 97.5%.
That’s a difference of 52 defensive plays made from a combination of larger number of balls reached and better fielding percentage. The difference is even higher if you pro-rate for the number of games played.
There are a number effects going on here (one of which may be park related, I really don’t know) but those are fairly substantial differences. I think it would be unwise to discount the validity of the finding, because the magnitude of the difference.
by eastbayexpat on Sep 30, 2009 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions
And Eithier isn't even the biggest butcher out there compared to Hawpe, Sweeney is worth like 40 runs
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 30, 2009 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions
I actually just checked the figure for Brad Hawpe
216 defensive chances in 137 games at a 98.1% fielding percentage.
This year, he made over 100 fewer defensive plays than Ryan Sweeney. At least some of that is park effect…but let’s let that sink in for a bit.
by eastbayexpat on Sep 30, 2009 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions
I hear you
And you’re right to question whether or not the runs saved component is adjusted correctly in the defensive metrics. We also know that the defensive production can vary wildly from year to year, which means it’s harder to predict how well the player in question will save runs the next season.
There’s little reason to doubt the offensive side of the numbers. Sweeney has produced league average offense. And he’s been a good defensive outfielder, especially in RF. (Again, has he been as good as UZR says? That’s at least open to question.) But I think it’s fair to say that Sweeney has been a plus for the A’s this season. As for the other players you mentioned, keep in mind that WAR places a huge penalty on being a 1B so Morales, Morneau and Pena are starting way in the hole before they take an at bat.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Is there such thing as a defense-independent WAR?
like WAR, but without a position penalty?
"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Sep 29, 2009 8:49 AM PDT up reply actions
He is still a league average 2.06 WAR without defense or position.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 29, 2009 10:08 AM PDT up reply actions
Their new album
Gritty Wins Above Replacement
is phennnominal (or so says Jim Rome).
"I did nothing. I did absolutely nothing, and it was everything that I thought it could be." -- Peter Gibbons
by dtownmbrown on Sep 29, 2009 12:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Why don't you think that the runs saved component is adjusted correctly.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 30, 2009 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions
Justin Morneau is the most overrated player in baseball
The only reason he’s thought of as a star player is that he lucked into a huge RBI total in a season where the Twins made the playoffs.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
If you're going to be hyperbolic, you should use more extreme exaggerations so I don't actually have to wonder if you're being serious.
I don’t for a second believe you actually think Morneau is more overrated than Ichiro or Jeter.
by LongLiveLangerhans on Sep 29, 2009 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions
Ryan Langerhans is the greatest player in baseball.
I won't heal, given time.
I won't try to change your mind.
I won't feel better in the cold light of day.
But I wouldn't stop you if you wanted to stay.
He's no Ross Gload.
/OOTP Baseball reference.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Derek Jeter is, one way or another, a Hall of Fame player
as is Ichiro.
Morneau wouldn’t even make the Hall of Very Good.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
Well, I chose those guys for a reason.
You’re on the record saying Ichiro is “probably the most consistently overrated player in baseball for the last 5 years, with the arguable exception of Derek Jeter.”
Now, this doesn’t absolutely contradict what you said above because of the word “consistently” and because of the inclusion of a time context. And, frankly, I don’t care who is more overrated. I only responded to your comment because I thought it was weird to bind yourself to such a controversial statement if you weren’t serious about it.
I thought you were just exaggerating for effect, but apparently you were serious. I’ll be interested to see how that opinion holds up this postseason when the Jeter love fest comes to town.
by LongLiveLangerhans on Sep 29, 2009 5:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Simple answer: that was a year ago
and Morneau’s gotten a lot more undeserved pub in the meantime…
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
I haven't really noticed much Morneau publicity.
His numbers haven’t been eye-catching and the Twins weren’t really in contention until recently. And Morneau’s been hurt for most of that. On top of that, Mauer has completely outshadowed him with the incredible season he’s been having. Maybe you’re aware of hype that I haven’t been exposed to.
I’d posit that Manny Ramirez has been more overrated, by the way.
by LongLiveLangerhans on Sep 29, 2009 6:44 PM PDT up reply actions
those guys are way better than Morneau
With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery
Ugh. I can't believe I got drawn into a pointless argument...
How good they are is only half the equation. If the question is: “who is more overrated?” then you have to look at how good they are as well as how good they are perceived to be. So it’s true that Ichiro and Suzuki are better, but you can’t determine whether they are more overrated than Morneau by that fact alone.
And, for the record, I don’t disagree that Morneau is more overrated than Jeter or Suzuki, I just don’t believe that PaulThomas believes that.
by LongLiveLangerhans on Sep 29, 2009 5:29 PM PDT up reply actions
Ichiro is underrated
By people who say he is overrated. :)
He's also underrated
by people who think they value him highly.
If I were the arguing type (and I’m not, ‘cause in the immortal words of Gene Brabender, ’Where I come from, we don’t argue much before we start to hit people’), I would argue that Ichiro is the greatest hitter of all time.
"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Sep 30, 2009 10:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Ichiro is the closest thing to Rickey.
Ichiro is so good, he’s even better than Ichiro.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
Would Sweeney Bashers™ be more patient with Sweeney.....
If:
1. We hadn’t traded Swish for him
2. He wasn’t “blocking” Buck
3. He was 5’10 and not 6’4
Because he’s only power away from being a “star”. His BB/K is really good for his age, and will hopefully improve even more with experience.
Lets not forget that he’s put up these terrific fielding stats on dodgy knees.
I am a Sweeney apologist and proud of it.
Is this the real life-
Is this just fantasy-
Caught in a landslide-
No escape from reality-
by Daniel777 on Sep 28, 2009 10:51 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
Actually the fact that he has been doing this on dodgy knees is bad
since he has shown a proclivity for getting banged up.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 28, 2009 10:54 PM PDT up reply actions
Everyone on this damn team has shown a proclivity for getting banged up
The A’s haven’t had a genuinely consistently healthy regular since, what, Tejada? I guess you could say Suzuki is one but his numbers seem to indicate that he wears down when he plays a lot of games.
Actually, if you want the best argument for Rajai Davis, it might just be that unlike seemingly every other Oakland outfielder, the guy hasn’t hit the DL yet this season.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
Yeah... I think the whole injured players are undervalued idea has something to do with that
good idea but it sure bites you in the ass when it doesn’t work out so well.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 28, 2009 11:06 PM PDT up reply actions
Sure
I tend to think of broken bones as completely random, though. As far as I know, no one in MLB is suffering from osteogenesis imperfecta or ricketts…
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
Hasn't Crosby broken his back ankle and ribs?
There are certain people whose body will mess up ligaments and tendons rather than having those things stay in place and breaking bones. I think there is definitely MLB players with a proclivity for broken bones.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 29, 2009 10:29 AM PDT up reply actions
I hate that he's so fucking tall.
Tall bastard.
Maybe you can find one made by Go F**k Yourself San Jose... -Poppy
by Leopold Bloom on Sep 29, 2009 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions
If you both lie down, I'll bet you're taller.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
um, no thanks.
Maybe you can find one made by Go F**k Yourself San Jose... -Poppy
by Leopold Bloom on Sep 29, 2009 6:25 PM PDT up reply actions
I think your fielding numbers are too optimistic
Entering this season, he was projected at +9 runs in a corner or +2 runs in center by CHONE. He’s scored close to the top of the league in both UZR and RZR, but there is still going to be a substantial regression component to his projection because he’s only been in the league at all for 4 years and for any significant time for 2 years.
I’m guessing CHONE will bump him up by a few runs, but probably not to the levels cited in this post. He looks more like a 3 WAR player than 3.5 to me. Still clearly worthy of a starting spot at this point in time, however.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
That is fair
Like I said I think that the Arm runs in CF last year was a fluke which would push those projections up. I tried to be conservative the offense based the probability of not regressing the defense far enough.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 28, 2009 11:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Agreed;
His defense by UZR has been just about exactly +1 WAR for his career, but that should be regressed and half a win is probably more reasonable. He got much lower ratings in PMR last year. .5 wins above average seems about right for his offense next year, so I would also say he looks like a 3 WAR player.
With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery
Still a 3 WAR player is a first division starter.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 30, 2009 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Doesn't CHONE rely exclusively on TotalZone, ZR, and fan scouting reports?
As far as I know, and please correct me if I’m mistaken, CHONE’s defensive projections don’t even make use of the more advanced metrics such as UZR, +/-, and PMR.
Frankly, I’m inclined to give more weight to his major league UZR numbers than I am his minor league + major league TZ figures. Despite the difference in sample sizes.
by CapgrasDelusion on Sep 29, 2009 3:49 PM PDT up reply actions
The differences between the inputs to CHONE and the "advanced metrics" you cite are, at most, minor
I’d trust a regressed metric like CHONE far more than an unregressed one like UZR, especially since CHONE includes data from both BIS and Stats Inc. (although as I mentioned, Sweeney happens to score well in both companies’ data sets).
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
I'm not convinced that regressing to the fans scouting report
is better than just regressing to average or better than nothing at all. I would also say that the fact that totalzone doesn’t use pbp data is a major weakness.
With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery
Well, when you're projecting, you can use whatever system you want...
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
I think Sweeney may suffer from the exact opposite. Sweeney has extremely long strides which makes it harder to see the ground he makes up because he doesn’t look like he is running that hard.
Can we officially dub this the “Beltran effect”?
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
Sure... I haven't watched Beltran enough to know but I trust your analysis.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 28, 2009 11:32 PM PDT up reply actions
IF YOU THINK RYAN SWEENEY IS A BAD PLAYER, I HATE YOU AND FIND YOU STUPID.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
by mikev on Sep 28, 2009 11:31 PM PDT reply actions 4 recs
That was the other title I was considering.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 28, 2009 11:32 PM PDT up reply actions
He's not a bad player, he's just boring.
"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Sep 29, 2009 8:50 AM PDT up reply actions
If you had 9 boring players with 3.5 WAR to their name each, you would run away with the division with even a mediocre pitching staff.
I'm not sure 9 Ryan Sweeneys
who got much of their WAR valuation from their defensive rating would be all that great.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Sep 29, 2009 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions
Its not 9 Ryan Sweeneys its 9 players with a 3.5 WAR
What you fail to understand in your joyless myopia is that baseball is the key to life-- the Rosetta Stone, if you will. If you just understood baseball better all your other questions your, your... the, uh... the aliens, the conspiracies they would all, in their way be answered by the baseball gods.
A penny saved is a penny earned.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 29, 2009 1:14 PM PDT up reply actions
not in baseball
A penny scored is earned, a penny saved is simply that penny which is not given to the other team. I am sure Sweeney and other guys with great UZR and high percentage of WAR from defensive stats do save runs, but at the end of the day, it’s what you score that counts. After all, if your team is down 1-0 and your 3.5 WAR guy who got there because of terrific fielding saves a run, but you don’t score again, you lost.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Sep 29, 2009 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions
A run is a run is a run.
If that 3.5 WAR guy was an offensive machine but lacking defensively, and scored a run rather than saved one, the final score would be 2-1 instead of 1-0. Same difference.
I won't heal, given time.
I won't try to change your mind.
I won't feel better in the cold light of day.
But I wouldn't stop you if you wanted to stay.
thank you for proving my point then
that WAR isn’t a great statistic in a game situation.
But in a larger sense, still no, a run saved is not the same. You want to score more runs than the other team. Save all the runs you want, but if your team doesn’t score for itself, it’s a dead duck
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Sep 29, 2009 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions
this is a straw man argument
a team full of Ryan Sweeney’s would obviously score some runs. We’re comparing major leaguers to major leaguers here, the difference in hitting ability between Albert Pujols and Tony Pena Jr is still not as big as the difference between TPJ and me. So all of these players will get shut out occasionally, score 10 runs occasionally, and usually end up somewhere in between. In that situation, we can consider marginal runs in one direction or another.
of course they would score some
But the question is what would a 3.5 WAR team truly look like on the field? What kind of team would they beat more often than not? Would they beat the Nationals most of the time? Probably.
Would they do the same, though, against the Rays? The Yankees? Us?
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Sep 29, 2009 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions
Why would they not do the same?
Also Sweeney is an above league average bat, so suggesting that he doesn’t hit is bunk.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 29, 2009 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes, they could beat the Nats
But could they beat the Rays or another team that’s not quite playoff bound, but had a good season? I don’t know — too unpredictable.
It’s not that he doesn’t hit, it’s that his valuation above a bunch of other pretty good ballplayers is suspect.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Sep 29, 2009 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions
A lineup full of 3.5 WAR players would
win 31.5 games above replacement with a rotation of 2 WAR pitchers and 7 .5 WAR relievers, and 4 1 War bench players your team would win 97 games.
Those players are generally are bad defensive first basemen which means that their offensive contributions just barely get them out of the replacement level hole they start in.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 29, 2009 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions
But, do 30 Helens agree?
You can’t pay too much for a good pair of shoes!
"I did nothing. I did absolutely nothing, and it was everything that I thought it could be." -- Peter Gibbons
30 Helens agree.
Maybe you can find one made by Go F**k Yourself San Jose... -Poppy
by Leopold Bloom on Sep 29, 2009 6:25 PM PDT up reply actions
you're confusing me, DFA
Those players are generally are bad defensive first basemen which means that their offensive contributions just barely get them out of the replacement level hole they start in.
What? Which players — all of them?
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Sep 29, 2009 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions
The list of overrated players he cited earlier
Morneau et al.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
The only real exception is Wright
who is hitting 40% of what he was in his best season and after two years where he turned around his defense this year it has gone back to being bad.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 29, 2009 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions
allegedly
basically, we’re talking about the ariners here, right, a lineup of all field not hit, that won 10 games more than they lost or so, but with a pythag actually about 10 games below, yada yada.
Sweeney’s “above average” hitting is heavily BA dependent, and his fielding value is based on a stat I am not quite sure is as reliable as batting stats.
But he is a pretty decent player and still young. Thanks for the heavy analysis.
The Mariners pitching is poor and they have had severe problems at
SS, C, DH and LF
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 30, 2009 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions

"The A's get some action but they do not score..." -Glen Kuiper
"Anyone who calls themselves the Angels Angels should have to start over and ride the short bus." -timmeh from McCovey Chronicles
Im sorry but should i know what that is?
I don’t see it.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 29, 2009 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions
It's that awesome Picard facepalm.
Made up of other, awesome facepalms.
I won't heal, given time.
I won't try to change your mind.
I won't feel better in the cold light of day.
But I wouldn't stop you if you wanted to stay.
i see half of a drawing of a lung
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Sep 29, 2009 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions
interesting.
(makes note on notepad re: cuppingmaster)
go on.
Maybe you can find one made by Go F**k Yourself San Jose... -Poppy
by Leopold Bloom on Sep 29, 2009 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions
I see it now.... Thank You!
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 29, 2009 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions
Were you looking down?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I saw the dick too, its okay.
What you fail to understand in your joyless myopia is that baseball is the key to life-- the Rosetta Stone, if you will. If you just understood baseball better all your other questions your, your... the, uh... the aliens, the conspiracies they would all, in their way be answered by the baseball gods.
This is the best internet graphic image ever
or maybe second best, after the “O RLY” owl. Cause that one is just hilarious.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
It needs more picutres so that if you don't knwo what it is you can still get it
and the ability to blow it up to see the individual pics.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 29, 2009 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions
There is a larger version, but i didn't want to take up the whole page :)
"The A's get some action but they do not score..." -Glen Kuiper
"Anyone who calls themselves the Angels Angels should have to start over and ride the short bus." -timmeh from McCovey Chronicles
On an slightly related tangent,
Does anyone know how to make those stereoscopic Magic Eye pictures? Because one of that Picard facepalm or even the O RLY owl would be unbelievably, mind-blowingly awesome.
I won't heal, given time.
I won't try to change your mind.
I won't feel better in the cold light of day.
But I wouldn't stop you if you wanted to stay.
I never have because I lack the ability to see magic eye pictures.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 29, 2009 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions
So we agree on something
(see my comment above)
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Sep 29, 2009 3:20 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I just cross my eyes and pretend I'm Timothy Leary
and it usually works after a minute or two.
"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Sep 29, 2009 3:50 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't know
I’ve never actually laughed as much about a picture as I did about the “get a brain, morans” one.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
right except the only reason youre not down 5-0 is that great defensive play with the bases loaded.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 29, 2009 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions
who cares if you lose anyway
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Sep 29, 2009 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions
It always bugs me when you ask someone how to win a baseball game, and the response is “You score more runs than the other team.” That is of course true.
But it’s equally true to say that “You make the other team score fewer runs.”
It might be more of a mouthful, but that does not make it any less true.
unless your offense is missing/nonexistent
I’m not arguing with your general point, but your pitching can only be so good. Eventually, you have to score runs.
Case in point: gnats
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Sep 29, 2009 6:09 PM PDT up reply actions
That’s a strawman. I could simply say that “if your defense is nonexistent, then it doesn’t matter what kind of offense you put out there.” You have to score runs, but you have to make sure the other team doesn’t score more.
If you never score runs, you will never win.
If you always give up runs, you may win.
I understand you’re saying what if you give up 9,999,999,999+ runs.
The difference is one of these two “hypothetical” outcomes happens sometimes. The other never does, except possibly in W.P. Kinsella books.
Maybe you can find one made by Go F**k Yourself San Jose... -Poppy
by Leopold Bloom on Sep 29, 2009 6:30 PM PDT up reply actions
The scientist in me really wishes that we could just do silly things like throw together 9 Swingles-type players, shake them around in a test tube, and release them onto the field. It’d be interesting to see what the result is. Part of the reason I think sabermetrics in general get a bad rap from the mainstream media is a sample size issue. So few players, relatively speaking, are like Jack Cust and Adam Dunn that it becomes difficult to evaluate their contributions to the teams they play on.
A propos the current discussion, it would be interesting to see if WAR is synergistic/cooperative or merely additive—does it matter if you rack up all +30 WAR via defense, or is +15 WAR on both offense and defense better? I’m inclined to believe the latter, even though that runs counter to the definition and goal of WAR.
(blinks)
Maybe you can find one made by Go F**k Yourself San Jose... -Poppy
by Leopold Bloom on Sep 29, 2009 6:41 PM PDT up reply actions
i really wish we could do that too
but the beauty in baseball is we can see results on the field for future analysis.
I do think that in WAR, the difference between league-average defense and great defense is less than the difference between league-average offense and great offense. I agree with your final statement as well, but I suspect that 20 WAR on offense and 10 WAR on defense is even better than that
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Sep 29, 2009 6:42 PM PDT up reply actions
True. Right after I hit the “post” button, I remembered that Dave Cameron had written on Fangraphs just today that Seattle has the top team UZR/150 in the majors with around +90. Which is about 9 WAR on defense.
So +30 WAR on defense would be insane. BABIP against that team would have to be somewhere around .200.
Er
We’ve got some issues here. First off, the UZR thing is relative to average. It’s not 9 WAR, it’s 9 WAA.
Secondly, people don’t generally conceptualize offense and defense as having separate replacement levels.
There’s almost certainly a better-than-average defender at every position available for free, but most of those guys hit like they were swinging a wet noodle instead of a baseball bat. Similarly, there are usually league-average or better hitters available on demand in the minors, but most of those guys could face the outfield wall instead of the batter and do about as well on defense.
Replacement level for a player is about 2 wins below average, but there’s no easy way to break that down into offensive and defensive replacement level.
One thing we can say is that because doing well on defense lowers the average runs per game, and doing well on offense raises it, preventing a run is actually infinitesimally better than scoring one. A team that scores 600 runs and gives up 550 will almost certainly have a better record than a team that scores 1000 runs and gives up 950. But those cases are clearly extremes. Normally, a run is just a run.
But in the scenarios you referenced above, the hypothetical Omar Vizquel All-Stars would probably win a couple more games than the Jack Cust All-Stars, and might even win one or two more than the balanced 15/15 or 20/10 teams.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
You’re probably a little bit more familiar with this, so I’ll throw this out:
How comes Fangraphs has a “replacement level” added into it’s WAR calculation? Is WAR If WAR is wins above replacement, how come we’re adding back in replacement to the calculation? Shouldn’t that be left off as a “baseline”?
the offense and defense categories are relative to average
so without adding in the “replacement” runs, an average player would be at 0.
With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery
Replacement level is defined as 20 runs below average per 600 PAs
so you only get credit for them based on your playing time. Everything else is defined by leage average.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 29, 2009 11:57 PM PDT up reply actions
They need to calculate how many runs a replacement level player would produce
At that position given the same exact playing time.
I won't heal, given time.
I won't try to change your mind.
I won't feel better in the cold light of day.
But I wouldn't stop you if you wanted to stay.
Alright, my confusion basically stems from this: is replacement from the majors (i.e. an average major leaguer) or is it from the minors (i.e. truly a replacement level player)?
It's supposed to be
more of a “true” replacement player; something like the best players in the minors who are not quite good enough to make the majors. The idea is that they are the best players who can be acquired for free, ad are therefroe not worth any money to sign.
this article explains it well. The 2 wis below average that is used to equal replacement level is an empirical result.
With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery
The Texas Rangers disprove your if you always give up runs you might win
They were a terrible team because they couldn’t defend and they couldn’t pitch. This year they decided to play defense at the cost of offense and guess what they are significantly improved while losing one of the besxt hitters int the big leagues from 2008 and making almost no other significant roster changes.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 30, 2009 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions
(blinks)
Maybe you can find one made by Go F**k Yourself San Jose... -Poppy
by Leopold Bloom on Sep 30, 2009 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions
they also pitch a hell out of a lot better
Feldman is out of his mind compared to his history. Millwood, McCarthy, and Hunter are also all unexpectedly good.
I’m not sure if this year they simply “decided” to focus on defense so much as they’ve had some unexpectedly good pitching performances.
A lot, also, I think has to do with old school Nolan Ryan saying “a QS for me is 7IP/2ER” or whatever metric he used instead of 6/3.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Oct 1, 2009 7:55 AM PDT up reply actions
Please tell me you didn't actually mean that last paragraph
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
I don't mean to say that nolan Ryan is a sabremetician
But that his coaching and conditioning leadership has played a part in the development of their young pitching
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Oct 1, 2009 3:25 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I disagree
They had a bazillion pitching prospects entering this season. Many of them have succeeded, but many of them have had awful years and basically fallen off the radar screen. I don’t see anything special about how they’re developing them— they just had so many that some of them were bound not to turn into pumpkins or have their arms fall off.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
Hypothetical Question for you
Suppose you have Sweeney, whose Defense builds up his WAR to 3.5 in right field playing against a team with only right handed, extreme pull hitters. Suppose you have Player X, whose Offense builds up his WAR to 3.5 in right field against the same team of right handed, extreme pull hitters. Which player is ultimately going to give his team more value?
Clearly this is one hell of an extreme example, but I ask because I see two flaws in the valuation of WAR with defense (which is entirely likely a result of ignorance on my part than anything else):
1) You can’t take negative runs off the board, but you can put infinite runs on the board.
2) Defense-boasted WAR seems (and this is where my ignorance really comes into play) like it’s heavily dependent on your opponents offensive tendencies (i.e. where they’re likely to hit it and how often), your pitcher’s tendencies (fly ball/ground ball/strikeout, etc.) and luck. So a right fielder’s potentially may never make a play in the field in a given game so their overall influence may not exist. Whereas, an Offensive-boasted WAR always comes into play in a game regardless of defensive & pitching tendencies.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
by DMOAS on Sep 29, 2009 6:09 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
that stuff averages out
you point out yourself that an opposing team consisting of only right handed extreme pull hitters isn’t a realistic example. In any realistic schedule of opponents, the number of right vs left handed batters, groundball vs flyball hitters, and so on will quickly approach league average. If there really was a defensive position that didn’t matter, teams would have figured it out by now.
Another example of this idea coming up in an unrealistic thought experiment was a fANpost on Beyond the Box Score a little while ago, where someone posed the question of what a team should pay on the free agent market for a hypothetical “perfect” pitcher (i.e. he pitches every fifth day and always throws a perfect game with 27 strikeouts). Some commenters pointed out that this pitcher actually makes your other players less valuable, since you don’t need to play defense or score more than one run on the days when he pitches. But these scenarios are just so far from actual baseball that they don’t matter.
I'm not so sure it necessarily averages out
There’s absolutely no reason why the combined nature of all players would create a balance for all circumstances. If anything, the fact that SS & CF are valued above all others defensively, suggests that it isn’t balanced, but actually weighted towards up the middle, devaluing the corners. Yes, I admitted that such a case couldn’t exist and it was mostly a thought experiment leading me to believe that offense is slightly more valuable than defense, if only because of it’s predictability within individual games. I.E. #2 above, in a given game you can always count on a player’s offensive metrics to come into play, but you can’t necessarily count on a player’s defensive metrics since that player may never see the ball. So while, yes, taking a run off the board is just as important as putting one on, you can’t count on an individual player taking runs off the board regardless of how phenomenal his defense is.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
The difference between a .300 hitter and a .250 hitter will only come up 1 in every 20 at-bats
Ergo, you can’t count on that either.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
Well you can count on having someone
between .250 and .300 every time he steps up to the plate. The point wasn’t “how good said player” is, so
much whether or not the metric used to value said player’s offense was guaranteed to come into play if he
stepped on the field. You can’t count on whether he’ll luck into the extra hit once a week, but you can count
on him stepping up to the plate.
And this whole hidden text thing going over the edge and disappearing is starting to really piss me off.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
And this whole hidden text thing going over the edge and disappearing is starting to really piss me off.
YES. It’s like SBN is actively making itself worse (and refusing to remove the stupid text shortcuts is part of it)
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Sep 30, 2009 7:25 PM PDT up reply actions 6 recs
Turn this green
hear that Clockworks!
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 30, 2009 7:41 PM PDT up reply actions
Two green comments in one day
I must be living right.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Yeah, I hear that kind of thing can get you arrested on Twinkietown
Seriously, though, do you guys have AN set to wide or narrow display?
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
wide
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Try setting it to narrow
I have it set to narrow, and I’m not getting that problem.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
I've never seen the problem.
I don’t know what you guys are talking about, but I always set to narrow .
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
But narrow sucks.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Good point -- I hadn't taken that into account
Carry on.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
de gustibus
I hate the “wide” setting. Yes, it’s better for when multiple replying gets you indented halfway across the page, but for most comments you get a mile-long line all the way across the screen, which is just awful.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
I don't see that at all.
and I’m on a 17" widescreen laptop.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Im really confused by this reply... can you rephrase?
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 30, 2009 7:42 PM PDT up reply actions
Sure
See if this makes more sense. Let’s say Sweeney plays 162 games in RF next year. Offensively,
in 162 games (assuming he’s not pulled in any of these games) is going to be guaranteed to get at
least 500+ plate appearances at his, for the sake of argument, slightly above average offense. This
is static, predictable. It can certainly be more, but minimum of 500+. You can project out how he’ll
do in his 500+ plate appearances and the impact on the game.
Defensively, he could have anywhere between 0 and 500 or so opportunities at his, as established,
high-rated defense. But, it has the potential to be 0 (though unlikely) and 500+ (also unlikely).
You don’t know how many opportunities he’ll actually get in the field. I imagine the difference
between 200 and 400 has a pretty big impact on just how many runs he’s saving. Meaning the
variance from year to year has the potential to be very big and, if nothing else, unreliable.
So in other words, if you’re looking solely at defense, Sweeney can play the same outstanding
defense from year to year, but his impact on saving runs could easily fluctuate and is unpredictable.
Whereas if you look solely at offense, if he gives you the same slightly above average offense year
to year, you can reasonably (within a margin of error) predict what sort of impact he’ll have in
creating runs. I’m not making a claim that offense is more important than defense, I guess I’m just
having trouble resolving WAR as metric, in particular, when adding the defensive side in.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
You're making a great deal out of a distinction which is completely nonexistent in practice
The rate of chances to each position (and especially up-the-middle positions) is at a very constant rate, surely far more constant than the rate at which a hitter produces base hits.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
you can also say, though
that given that there aren’t that many fielders who really just can’t play their position, that measuring the relative value of spectacular defense above and beyond average defense may be missing the mark entirely.
In science terms, a p value of greater than 0.05 when comparing the two, because you’re already comparing two relative high “skill” numbers, using whatever you’d like to measure skill
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Oct 1, 2009 8:34 AM PDT up reply actions
How so?
I’m not asking to be contrary, I posed that idea above simply because I know there’s
something I’m missing and I’d like to understand what it is.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
What you're missing is that the number of opportunities is effectively just as guaranteed as the number of plate appearances
These gaps and variations that you’re talking about simply do not exist in the real world.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
Gotcha
Doesn’t quite seem intuitively correct, but I’ll take your word on that since odds are
if I bothered to look it up, I’d find numbers to back what you say up.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
one clarification
I didn’t mean to say that all defensive positions are equally valuable. The up-the-middle positions are more important than the corners because more balls are hit there, and those players are generally responsible for covering more ground. Also, SS is more important than 2B because more hitters are right handed than left handed and hitters tend to pull the ball.
What I was trying to say is that the importance of particular defensive player will quickly approach the average value for that position and there is no realistic situation that will bias the result.
What matters is the skill variance
SS is more important than 2B primarily because fewer players are able to play it well (which has much more to do with the length of the throw than the number of chances.) The number of chances at each position will influence the variance, but there is no independent value of any fielding position outside of the variance. First basemen get the most “chances” but there is low skill variation in catching throws from other fielders.
To DMOAS: Again, if you want to decide the relative values of offense and defense, the only thing that matters is the skill variance. There is no independent fact about baseball that fixes the values. Same goes with hitting vs. pitching: the question of “which is more important” is just a matter of variance. If every pitcher in the league were exactly as good as Greinke, that would not make pitching more important. In that situation, pitching would have no importance whatsoever.
With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery
At the risk of putting words in colin’s mouth, I think his point regarding SS vs 2B is that all things equal, you’d like to have your best fielders getting the ball hit to them the highest percentage of the time. Somewhat similar to all things being equal, you should pick a high OBP guy to bat leadoff, since he’ll have the most PAs.
I think mikeA's probably right
I was working with the general idea that shortstops need to be better defenders than second basemen (this is implicit in the defensive spectrum and it also match old timey baseball wisdom). My statement about the number of balls hit to each position was more or less pulled out of my ass. I’m happy to accept mikeA’s explanation that the longer throw to first base accounts for a bigger part of the difference.
I get that part
And I suspect the thing I was missing with the valuation of WAR is that it’s based on what colin above
was calling the “average value for that position” which, if I’m understanding correctly (and please correct
me if I’m wrong) is accounting for 1) how often the average player of a given a position fields the ball 2)
how often fielding the ball at that position occurs 3) the impact of #1 & #2 in taking runs off the board.
Actually, the more I think about it, the more I realize that it better do those things otherwise it seems
pretty worthless.
If those 3 things are true, I’d still suggest, CF, SS, Catcher would be better to value Defensive WAR
over the offense, 2B & 3RD more balanced, but leaning towards the Defensive side. 1B and LF more
towards Offensive WAR, RF more balanced, but leaning towards the Offensive side. But I have
absolutely nothing to say on defending that other than poor man’s intuition so I can fully accept being
wrong on that. But creating a team who’s value primarily made based on Defense or based on
Offense is just a disaster waiting to happen. Balance is key.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
you basically just reinvented
the defensive spectrum. Or are you suggesting that your first baseman should be an even worse defender than average?
No no
I’m guessing you’re talking about the 2nd part. What I’m saying is, if you’re choosing between
two players, A) One who’s value is significantly derived from Defense while average Offensively
and B) one who’s value is significantly derived from Offense while average Offensively. Assuming
both A & B arrive at the same WAR of, say, 3.5, you’d want to choose player type A for CF, SS,
Catcher and player type B for 1B, LF, etc.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
Nope. WAR pretty much takes that into account
Easy answer: You’d want both
Less easy answer: You’d want whichever is cheaper
Other answer: You’d want whichever one fills an organizational need.
Maybe at the outer margins what you’re saying matters, but not in any significant way.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
It does all three of those things
The way the defensive spectrum is created is by a historical analysis of how those SS do when moved to 2b and so on.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 30, 2009 7:44 PM PDT up reply actions
As far as his plate discipline, it's getting better.
This year, he’s swinging a little less than last year on balls outside the strike zone while swinging more on pitches inside the zone. Total swing percentage is about the same. Even better is that when he swings on pitches in the zone, he’s hitting the ball three percent more than last year. On pitches outside the zone, he’s making five percent more contact.
I won't heal, given time.
I won't try to change your mind.
I won't feel better in the cold light of day.
But I wouldn't stop you if you wanted to stay.
And don't forget guys,
He’s a super-duper hottie.
That’s gotta count for something, right?
…..RIGHT?!?1?
hold on while i vomit
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 28, 2009 11:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Its long but thankfully not that long
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 28, 2009 11:40 PM PDT up reply actions
We need another marketing thread
Clearly, the smile post, the Sweeney is hot reference… use the players who smile and are hot as next years marketing campaign! The Coliseum will be sold out before the season even starts.
Bring back Swisher!
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
Only of you've go a stat that can confirm a "hotties" innate playing ability above a non-Hottie
called something like CUTER – Concrete (but) Unique Trace Evidence (leading to) Runs
"Baseball is dull only to dull minds." Red Barber
by BERRYJO on Sep 29, 2009 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions
is this a ratio or a counting statistic?
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Sep 29, 2009 5:16 PM PDT up reply actions
I suppose that would depend on what you wish to measure
The frequency of hotties in baseball or the correlation of this to their skills in baseball. (BTW defining the terms and coming up with the validity of your measure across raters could be fun – maybe even more fun than the study itself).
Now – if one is trying to be sarcastic and superfluously silly as I am (often) then I suppose it doesn’t really matter – now – does it??!?!
;-)
"Baseball is dull only to dull minds." Red Barber
by BERRYJO on Sep 29, 2009 5:40 PM PDT up reply actions
I think they would both be ratios
but the former would be a ratio of 0.xxx and the other would be greater than 1
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Sep 29, 2009 6:48 PM PDT up reply actions
Are arm-runs outcome dependent?
That is, if Sweeney throws a perfect strike to home and the catcher drops it, how does that figure into UZR? Does it matter if the official scorer calls it an error against the catcher? If he 15-hops a ball 10 feet up the 3B line, but the runner falls down and gets tagged out after a rundown (thus earning Sweeney an assist), does UZR evaluate that as a better performance on the arm-run scale than the perfect throw that was dropped?
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Sep 29, 2009 6:50 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
MGL explains it better than I do...
Didn’t see this thread until today. I pretty much do the same thing as THT. Outfielder’s get credit (plus or minus) depending on what the runners do on a hit or a fly ball out. A runner can stay put, advance, or get thrown out. So a fielder will get credit not only if he throws out more than his share of runners, but also if he keeps more than his share of runners from advancing extra bases.
I adjust for park effects, like LF at Fenway (where the assumption is that the LF’er plays close) or all fields in Coors (where the OF’ers play deep).
I also account for the type of hit (line drive, fly ball, etc.), the speed, and the location of the ball (where it is caught or lands), as well as the number of outs. And I put different base runner configurations in different buckets – e.g. runners on 1 and 2 are treated differently than a runner on 2 only. Obviously these are important variables.
I don’t do anything for a fielder who may prevent a player from stretching a single into a double, or double into a triple, because there is really no good way of knowing this from the data with any degree of reliability. (I suppose I could look at how many singles, doubles, and triples an outfielder allows for each location, speed, and type of batted ball. In fact, I think I looked at that a while ago and found that indeed the players with best arms also allowed fewer doubles as compared to singles and triples as compared to doubles, to the tune of a couple more runs a year.)
I do, of course, include in the "credit" column when a fielder throws a runner out attempting to stretch a hit. And again, all of the credits and demerits are based on the the league-average rate. For example, if there were 100 singles against an OF’er (on a certain batted ball type in a certain location with a certain number of outs) and he threw out 3 (3%) attempting to stretch, and the average OF’er threw out 2% given the same batted ball characteristics and outs, then the OF’er would get some credit equal to the value of erasing a runner on first (like a CS) with that many outs.
One more thing. When you look at even several years of combined arm data, and you see a spread of 45 runs, like David shows above, the actual spread in true talent is less than the spread of what you see. Obviously the more the number of years, the closer the observed spread is to the actual spread, but the former is always larger than the latter. In this case, a spread of 45 runs in 3 years is probably equivalent to a "true" spread of maybe 35 runs or so, or 12 runs a year (+6 to minus 6). If we assume that the largest spread we see is equivalent to around 3 SD, then I think it is safe to assume that the SD of arm talent is around 2 runs per season. Compared to around 5-7 runs per season in UZR range and errors for OF (5 at the corners and 7 in CF). (These are educated guesses). Which makes arm maybe 25% of total defense in the OF.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 29, 2009 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions
But does he look happy to be playing in Oakland?
UZR and WAR be damned! Does he smile on the field? Give me something I can quantify.
JJ Martin
The best way to catch a knuckleball is to wait until the ball stops rolling and then pick it up. ~Bob Uecker
Smiling on the Road
Sweeney will smile on the road if OakA’sHoney shows up.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Sep 29, 2009 7:12 AM PDT up reply actions
I'm not a member of the grammar police
But I had a horrible time reading this piece. The sentence structure, lack of punctuation, spelling… not to be a jerk but did you let Word (or whatever program you used) edit this?
Anyways…
General question. Offense is measured vs. league average. Is defense done the same way or does it get measured against MLB as a whole?
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Sep 29, 2009 8:28 AM PDT reply actions 2 recs
If that's the case, that would help explain the potential for such a wide variation in the scores
League average offense is measured against every hitter, regardless of position. Position specific defense is measured against a much smaller sample group.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Right
if a good defender gets hurt one year that can bring down the league average because there aren’t that many players who play one position. It does increase the luck variable.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 29, 2009 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions
Seems like two issues here.
One is the smaller sample size, which makes the numbers less reliable.
The second is that if a certain position happens to have lousy players that year it’s going to bump up the score for the few good players in the position. But in that case, isn’t that exactly what we want it to do? If you have a pretty good shortstop and a pretty good centerfielder, in a year where the league as a whole has a bumper crop of good CFs but hardly any decent SSs, then isn’t it true that your pretty good SS really is more valuable than your pretty good CF?
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
uzr uses (I think) the prior 3 years for the league averages
With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery
Good point
but what I was referring to is that the “true talent” of the player in question doesn’t change.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 29, 2009 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah
There seemed to be an unusual amount of errors in this post. Very non-DFA like.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Obviously it was written by Ryan Sweeney
And he made all these stats up.
"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin
by Helloooo 1st on Sep 29, 2009 12:25 PM PDT up reply actions
Disagree
Disagree that it’s non-DFA-like, that is.
Yes, my train of thought got derailed when it hit “faired” and “wreak” in quick succession, but DFA is what he is. We all have our flaws, and it’s no secret that malaprop spelling is one of DFA’s. There are worse problems one can have.
If he ever gets published we’ll make sure he has a good editor.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
I also was feeling really cranky from some freelance work and didn't double check this like I should have.
If someone wants to edit my stuff before it goes up that is fine otherwise people can just deal with it.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 29, 2009 2:39 PM PDT up reply actions
you lost your sense of humor today.
Maybe you can find one made by Go F**k Yourself San Jose... -Poppy
by Leopold Bloom on Sep 29, 2009 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah... the comments didn't start out well in this thread
I am Ryan Sweeney’s parent
Ryan Sweeney’s hotness
Ryan Sweeney’s dick
My grammar/spelling
Sleeping with Ryan Sweeney
you can see why I might be cranky.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 29, 2009 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions
One of those things is not like the other.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Well, no one brought up Ryan Sweeney's grammar on this thread...
Gotta play the cards you’re dealt, amirite?
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
Great Grammar's great grammar brought up his great grammar.
I won't heal, given time.
I won't try to change your mind.
I won't feel better in the cold light of day.
But I wouldn't stop you if you wanted to stay.
well, to be fair,
you did build the castle with the moat and the retractable drawbridge.
Maybe you can find one made by Go F**k Yourself San Jose... -Poppy
by Leopold Bloom on Sep 29, 2009 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions
huh?
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 29, 2009 3:59 PM PDT up reply actions
Drawbridge
Cranky.
Get it?
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
I think im being dense
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 30, 2009 4:07 PM PDT up reply actions
You made an argument and placed it in the middle of the
internet, daring people to attack it, much like the person who builds a castle with tall walls, arrow slits, a drawbridge and a moat. You don’t build those in anticipation of no one attacking. Similarly, you don’t make a stat-based claim about a player who’s somewhat on the cusp of like/don’t like and post it to the website and then expect everyone to play nice.
Maybe you can find one made by Go F**k Yourself San Jose... -Poppy
by Leopold Bloom on Sep 30, 2009 4:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Wait, you were being serious?
Hm.
OK. First, your history is off— castles were very rarely attacked, because they were semi-impregnable during the Middle Ages. It was routine for 50 or so soldiers in the castle to fight off armies of thousands of men outside, which would usually start running out of food long before the defenders would. The point of them was specifically to deter attack. Basically saying “don’t even try it because you’re doomed to fail.” If someone attacks the castle anyway and gets killed, they really have only themselves to blame.
Second, your past statements have seemed to me to frequently imply that expression of opinions is more important/valuable/worthy of promotion on this website than logic or reason in that expression; in light of those prior statements, I find it highly ironic that you would essentially tell someone that “they got what was coming to them by expressing a point of view.”
Let me make something clear as a postscript— I like your contributions here and I’m not trying to be hostile. I happen to disagree with you on the above issue and just think it’s somewhat unfair to say different things at different times about the same problem.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
k.
Maybe you can find one made by Go F**k Yourself San Jose... -Poppy
by Leopold Bloom on Sep 30, 2009 5:51 PM PDT up reply actions
I know I should be on their side,
but I’m smiling.
See, LB, this is what happens
when you watch too many movies.
Castles are always being attacked in the movies.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
this is what happens when you film a castle in the Alps.
Maybe you can find one made by Go F**k Yourself San Jose... -Poppy
by Leopold Bloom on Sep 30, 2009 9:58 PM PDT up reply actions
LOL!
"Life is a horizontal fall" -Jean Cocteau
by King Richard on Oct 2, 2009 12:33 AM PDT up reply actions
I did nothing of the sort.
I want people to attack my argument and to argue against me. That is completely counter to what happened in much of this post where commenters hijacked the thread to talk about the player’s abilities in bed, how hot he is, how big his dick is, a discussion about my grammar/spelling or whether or not I am one of Sweeney’s parents, which is not cool.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 30, 2009 5:24 PM PDT up reply actions
As far as I can tell, that’s fairly normal for this blog.
Does AN cause you more stress than it gives you pleasure, DFA?
Its not in stats/analytical threads
Its a break in decorum to bring this level of crassness out of the game threads, or non-analytical posts.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 30, 2009 5:49 PM PDT up reply actions
k.
Maybe you can find one made by Go F**k Yourself San Jose... -Poppy
by Leopold Bloom on Sep 30, 2009 5:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man
A B -3X = Swedish girls like chocolate @('.')@
i used that joke two days ago!
ripping me off? :-)
You posted a post and made an argument.
Maybe you can find one made by Go F**k Yourself San Jose... -Poppy
by Leopold Bloom on Sep 29, 2009 6:32 PM PDT up reply actions
I would edit your stuff, if it's not during a busy time at work.
(ie, not between now and Oct 15).
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
Thanks.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 29, 2009 11:59 PM PDT up reply actions
I think DFA's extremely concise writing style accentuates the grammar and other mechanical problems.
It’s a rather tough and technical read already, the mechanical problems make it tougher than it would be otherwise.
I won't heal, given time.
I won't try to change your mind.
I won't feel better in the cold light of day.
But I wouldn't stop you if you wanted to stay.
Another, somewhat minor, thing to give Sweeney some credit for:
I’ve always given the guy a hard time for being pretty anemic against left-handed pitching. However, it seems like he has made some improvements against southpaws this season.
2009: .719 OPS against LHP – 112 ABs
2006-2008: .521 OPS against LHP – 101 ABs
The .719 mark is hardly world-beating, but based on the fact that it’s mostly buoyed up by a decent .344 OBP mark, and it’s somewhat encouraging for him going forward. Sweeney seems to be such an outstanding defensive player that you would want him to take the field as often as possible and would hope to avoid strictly platooning him over a long period of time. If he can continue to make improvements in his approach against lefties (and from my un-refined, un-statistical observations, he seems to be “hanging in there” a lot better against lefties this season) and can get on-base consistently at a .350+ clip or so against southpaws, then he will become an even more valuable everyday player.
The lack of power and lack of game-changing speed will ultimately limit his upside in my opinion, though. I think he will someday hit 15 homers as a major leaguer, but he’ll never be a high-power guy.
I think someone above summed up my thoughts toward Sweeney pretty well:
“Right now, for this team, he’s a very valuable player and AN as a community (myself definitely included) has undervalued his contribution to this team quite a bit.”
While he’s being paid less than 500K a year, he’s a great bargain and even during his arbitration years, he’ll likely be a bargain…however, I’m still hesitant to really believe that he’s a “cornerstone player” that will help lead this team to glory into next decade, especially while his power is all projection and somewhat wishful thinking.
I'm never gonna do it without the fez on!
by Taj Adib on Sep 29, 2009 8:31 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
I'm always a little wary of throwing too much stock
into the defensive numbers, especially when they don’t pass the sniff test. That said, I can buy that he’s a very good defender, and even legitimately worthy of a starting spot, since his bat isn’t really as bad as I, and others, have kind of made it out to be.
I’m still going to derisively call him Swingles, though.
we in the losin baseball binness. and cousin, binness is a boomin.
by walk off bunt on Sep 29, 2009 8:45 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Swingles is pretty awesome.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
the reason why we call him Swingles
is why we need someone with power in the OF to complement him. I have no problem with him starting (the defensive stats-questioning has been beaten down already, but if someone wants to go I’m down), but more because there’s no one better right now than anything else.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Sep 29, 2009 9:31 AM PDT up reply actions
I know.
It’s OK. He’s gonna start hitting 30 homers a year soon.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
LOL
I’m gonna re-post this at this time next year when he has a total of 9.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Sep 29, 2009 9:48 AM PDT up reply actions
yeah, mikev is going to supply him with "flaxseed oil"
j/k
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Sep 29, 2009 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions
get it from the Chinese Mafia this time...
Conte talks too damn much.
"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Sep 29, 2009 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions
Swingles rocks.
Best damn nickname we’ve had in a while.
Maybe you can find one made by Go F**k Yourself San Jose... -Poppy
by Leopold Bloom on Sep 29, 2009 12:07 PM PDT up reply actions
who gave him that nickname?
Maybe you can find one made by Go F**k Yourself San Jose... -Poppy
by Leopold Bloom on Sep 29, 2009 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions
Sweeney is finally showing some ability to drive the ball
31 doubles ain’t too bad. That .383 slugging he showed in 2008 was a problem.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Good stuff as usual DFA
I like Sweeny as a player and I’d like to see him be one of the starters in the outfield next season.
I only have two knocks on him and one is obvious I’d like to see hit for more power but he is only 24 so he could develop more power as he ages.
The other is he’s shown a lack of hustle at times and that is never a good thing. Geren has had to get on him a few times and hopefully this is another thing he’ll improve on as he gets older.
So you wrote this fanpost while judging a debate tournament, I think I’ll write my first fanpost while I judge a wet t-shirt contest.
I do not think he will hit for more power as he ages.
Its his swing thats to blame for no power. Hes and inside out slap hitter. Thats what he is.
"Carter's 25-game hitting streak isn't any normal streak. He's 46 for 97 (.474 average) during the run, adding 16 walks and compiling 81 total bases in the process. I'm out of superlatives for what he's doing." - Kevin Goldstein
Except for the couple of balls that he squares up and absolutely launches to right field.
or the double he knocked into the LCF gap last week.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Even Ichiro launches one sometimes
Doesn’t make him a power hitter.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
Worst possible example ever.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Ichiro could hit more HRs if he wanted to.
If you watch him hit BP he launches blasts consistently.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 29, 2009 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions
Ichiro could hit 30 dingers, easy...
and he’d still probably hit over .300
"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Sep 29, 2009 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions
While I have no way of proving this, I find it ridiculously unlikely
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
+1
He himself said he sacrifices power for average and vice versa
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Sep 29, 2009 6:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Ichiro also says he can be a pitcher at age 40.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
Ichiro has taken more swings
than any human who ever lived.
He himself has admitted in an interview (I wish I had the link, but it was a long time ago) that he easily could hit 20 home runs, but, like Ty Cobb, didn’t want to sacrifice his average and OBP for a handful of dingers.
"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Sep 30, 2009 9:30 AM PDT up reply actions
Isn't that last bit the definition of marriage?
by LoneStranger on Sep 30, 2009 9:48 AM PDT up reply actions
not my marriage.
the moral of the story:
Marry a nudist hippie accountant with purple dreadlocks, and you’ll never regret it!
"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Sep 30, 2009 10:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Well, ridiculously unlikely would be consistent with everything else Ichiro does.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
I suppose, but this would basically require him to like losing
Even Ichiro isn’t that weird.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
Ichiro is a little weird,
but in his defense,
people really should talk things over with their pets more often. Pets can give great advice.
"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Sep 30, 2009 10:52 PM PDT up reply actions
Seriously?
A couple balls? …. cmon man.
"Carter's 25-game hitting streak isn't any normal streak. He's 46 for 97 (.474 average) during the run, adding 16 walks and compiling 81 total bases in the process. I'm out of superlatives for what he's doing." - Kevin Goldstein
point being
He’s not David Eckstein, or Juan Pierre, or Chone Figgins. He’s not a slap hitter, but he does have more of an opposite field swing, and not at all the “typical lefty slugger” swing.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Eckstein he is not.
But does seem to hit a lot of singles to left.
"Carter's 25-game hitting streak isn't any normal streak. He's 46 for 97 (.474 average) during the run, adding 16 walks and compiling 81 total bases in the process. I'm out of superlatives for what he's doing." - Kevin Goldstein
If I had time I'd look for a batted ball chart to see.
I forget who had the nifty pictures though. mlb.com maybe?
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
as long as you don't do it at a Giants' wives softball game!
Ask Damon Bruce abut that one……
:)
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
Damon Bruce
I heard from a friend that he thinks the Warriors won’t even win 30 games this season.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Sep 29, 2009 5:07 PM PDT up reply actions
35
They gambled and lost on Monta Ellis and shall suffer from it
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Sep 29, 2009 5:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Warriors
I think we can be over .500 if we stay healthy.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Sep 29, 2009 5:22 PM PDT up reply actions
I had the impression that expectations were pretty high...
With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery
You're Confused
You’re confused because that would be Travis Buck.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Sep 29, 2009 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions
This Post
Someone may have mentioned this, but for me in particular, this post just reminded me of 0akFoSho. Somewhere, I am sure he’s smiling.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Sep 29, 2009 3:22 PM PDT reply actions
Ah yes the late great OakFoSho
I’m sure he’s somewhere building a life size Ryan Sweeny doll out of paper mache.
Why... it is nothing like OakFoSho
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 29, 2009 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions
Very true
This post is far too coherent to have tumbled out of the gaping abyss that was OakFoSho.
RRS owes you an apology (although, I am gratified to see that he’s discovered the subject line).
"If Vin Mazzaro comes anywhere near me with shaving cream he’s gonna be coming away with a bloody stump" – Dallas Braden
Subject Line
Yeah, the subject line is one of my better discoveries over the past few days.
This is what the Raiders need to get back on track.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Sep 29, 2009 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Just over/under/wide/mis-throw the ball, baby!
Ah, the joys of being a Raider fan.
I won't heal, given time.
I won't try to change your mind.
I won't feel better in the cold light of day.
But I wouldn't stop you if you wanted to stay.
I'm Sorry
Designatedforassignment, I apologize for what I did.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Sep 29, 2009 5:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Appology accepted.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 30, 2009 12:00 AM PDT up reply actions
... Captain Needa
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"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
you don't watch movies.
stop it.
Maybe you can find one made by Go F**k Yourself San Jose... -Poppy
by Leopold Bloom on Sep 30, 2009 4:28 PM PDT up reply actions
I did watch movies in the 1980s.
I watched that one seven times in the theaters.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
I like you more now.
Maybe you can find one made by Go F**k Yourself San Jose... -Poppy
by Leopold Bloom on Sep 30, 2009 4:31 PM PDT up reply actions
I can still quote lengthy passages of ESB.
ESB was by far the best script of the three.
Never saw any of the new ones.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
Best score, too.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
agree on the movie part.
don’t know enough about it on the score part, though I do recall quite the hubbub over John Williams first score.
ESB is my favorite far and away.
Maybe you can find one made by Go F**k Yourself San Jose... -Poppy
by Leopold Bloom on Sep 30, 2009 10:00 PM PDT up reply actions
is there anyone that doesn't think
ESB is the best?
by Elston Gunn on Sep 30, 2009 10:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Jedi had the most potential
but when Lucas took out the assault on the Imperial capital of Coruscant and put in ewoks and a second death star it all collapsed.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 30, 2009 10:34 PM PDT up reply actions
The Ewoks were way too Disney.
Good for a little fun, but not that much.
I wasn’t aware of the earliest draft you allude to.
Aside from the story generally, ESB just has a really well-crafted script. I know that Kasdan is also credited on RoJ, but I wonder if he was less involved in that one. The first Raiders movie is also a really tight script.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
The Ewoks should've been a warning that Jar Jar Binks was next
"If Vin Mazzaro comes anywhere near me with shaving cream he’s gonna be coming away with a bloody stump" – Dallas Braden
ESB is the film Lucas was least involved with
which is why it is best.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 30, 2009 10:58 PM PDT up reply actions
My girlfriend was roommates with Lucas’ niece in college. The niece said that for 4, 5, & 6, Lucas’ now ex-wife was in charge of editing the script/dialogue, or at least had a fair amount of input. They got divorced in between the first three and the crappy 1, 2, & 3, and whadda you know, the dialogue for those 3 was crap.
I've heard that elsewhere, too.
That Lucas’s then-wife was involved in improving the dialogue in his scripts.
I was under the impression that Kasdan heavily reworked the script for ESB. Not just dialogue, but general screenplay stuff.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
That makes a lot of sense to me.
And Kasdan knows his way around a movie.
Maybe you can find one made by Go F**k Yourself San Jose... -Poppy
by Leopold Bloom on Oct 1, 2009 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions
to be fair, the dialogue for 4 and 6 is mostly crap too.
it’s just a wonderful Campbellian story, which makes up for it.
granted the dialogue isn’t nearly as crappy as 1,2 and 3.
Luke I am your father is kinda ridiculous on its face.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Oct 1, 2009 9:58 PM PDT up reply actions
There's a big difference between when
John Williams is really inspired and when he’s just phoning it in. He’s good enough that even the humdrum scores are serviceable, but when he’s great he’s great. All three of the Star Wars scores are good, but ESB is best.
Williams studied with Mario Castelnuovo-Tedesco, one of several Jewish composers who made the jump from opera to film as a result of leaving Jew-unfriendly Europe in the 1930s (eg, Max Steiner, Erich Korngold).
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
More money, less concentration camps.
Maybe you can find one made by Go F**k Yourself San Jose... -Poppy
by Leopold Bloom on Oct 1, 2009 10:52 AM PDT up reply actions
I need more of you in my life.
Maybe you can find one made by Go F**k Yourself San Jose... -Poppy
by Leopold Bloom on Oct 1, 2009 4:20 PM PDT up reply actions
Sure, he's a great right fielder.
Somebody on this team has to hit, though. If we had eight outstanding hitters, I’d be a lot happier with having Sweeney in right. Since I am skeptical he’s going to develop into anything other than an OK hitter, I’d rather have somebody else.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Why does someone need to hit.
Also he is above league average with the bat.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 30, 2009 12:01 AM PDT up reply actions
No team of major league players would score zero runs.
Theoretically you could make the playoffs scoring 100 runs and giving up zero.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

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