The Fallacy of the Cahill to AAA Next Year Theory
by jasonthea on Sep 20, 2009 5:49 PM PDT
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PT believes, as do many others, that since Trevor Cahill has been a "gascan" in all but three starts, he stands little chance of improvement (in fact, regression to a 5.00+ ERA is predicted by Paul) and thus should get out of the way of whatever little chance of contention that Mr. Thomas and others believe the A's have next season and instead toil for the River Cats.
Hmmmm...
Let's look at a couple of equally young starting pitchers. In both cases, unlike Cahill, they got a cup of coffee near the end of Season One then pitched pretty much full-time in Season Two.
One of them had a combined ERA of 4.80 and an ERA+ of 79 in those formative years-- the other was even worse at 5.59 ERA and an ERA+ of 75 with a horrific WHIP of nearly 1.7.
Now it was pointed out to PT that improvement on the mound is often not incremental-- that pitchers, particularly young pitchers, are capable of quantum leaps if an organization is patient with them at the major league level.
And Pitcher A managed to go 24-20 his next two years with an ERA under 4 and a ERA+ of about 100, then jumped up to become one of the best left handers in the league just two seasons later at age 25. And Pitcher B did it even faster, winning 18 games at 22 years old on his way to a legendary career.
Cahill's ERA is 4.54 and his ERA is 91--- better than both of these examples-- but of course he's a "gascan" most of the time, right ???
And he doesn't throw all that hard, but neither did Tom Glavine and Greg Maddux.
I don't know if the leap will come next year or three years from now-- and I'm certainly not projecting a HOF career for young Trevor. But he could be very good, and I don't think sending him down to Sacramento is going to help him get there anywhere near as much as staying here in Oakland. So let's let Mr Beane have the final say on this one and cheer Cahill on in his 30+ starts as an Athletic next season.
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Strike out "kinda"
"If Vin Mazzaro comes anywhere near me with shaving cream he’s gonna be coming away with a bloody stump" – Dallas Braden
If there's a worse way to try and make an argument
Well…
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
this is what it's become around here??
Just trying a liitle humor, folks.
jasonthea, you should delete this post. Seriously
It’s great to look for evidence of other struggling, young pitchers succeeding in the majors. I’d love to read a diary fanpost analyzing that phenomenon. And you’ve found two interesting examples, both HOF-quality pitchers.
But this isn’t that fanpost. It’s way, way, way out of line. This site does not exist to facilitate namecalling, insults, invective, and fight-baiting among community members. If you want to engage in that, go to 99% of the rest of the internet.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
oh, please...
I don’t call anyone a name except some pretty famous ones. But I’ll change it.
I already flagged it
And if you think we don’t know who you’re referring to, then I can’t believe you think we’re smart enough to follow your argument.
Seriously — if you can’t discuss baseball without this kind of crap, I’ll push with the mods to have you banned.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
You mean like oaktoon, madmongoose, windyfelix...?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
If he's an oaktoon sockpuppet, I'd support banning jasonthea whole
heartedly.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
So did the mods
He gone! Put it on the board…….YESSSSSSSsssssss!!!!!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Jasonthea
As someone who doesn’t think Cahill should be sent down to AAA in 2010, I humbly ask you that at no point do you ever declare yourself to be on my side.
There is an argument to support keeping Cahill in Oakland next year and this post of yours only hurts it.
The monster at the end of this blog.
well, since I deleted about 8 words....
none of them name-calling but just a little sarcastic, now tell me what you think.
The “gascan” quote is real.
Passive aggressive name calling is still name calling, Mr. DaVinci.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Never mind.
All of your edits didn’t show before I posted.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
I think you have done nothing to support the claim that Cahill is of the same ilk
as Maddux and Glavine. Using ERA and even ERA+ these days will get your argument slapped down quickly and painfully.
The monster at the end of this blog.
And that is my point, I guess
Before I cleaned it up.
At the end of the day Trevor Cahill— as did Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine and literally thousands of others before them— went out there in his rookie year and competed.
According to a measure that we can compare over time, he did slightly better than Maddux and Glavine. The Cubs and Braves kept sending those two out there, and in a year one was a Cy Young candidate and the other a league average pitcher. Point being both of them did not improve incrementally— in Maddux’ case it was a rocket ship of improvement, in Glavine’s case a solid two year improvement followed by an even more impressive leap two years later.
Now you can’t tell me— no one can— that you can prove that something in the data about Cahill that can’t be compared to the early mid 1980s shows that in actuality he was worse than Glavine and Maddux were their first years as a starter. It’s pure speculation. All the new-fangled stats in the world don’t change the fact that Cahill has allowed a certain amount of runs, and Glavine and Maddux a few more. And Anderson better than all 3, of course.
What I object to is the “certitude” by which PT— and others— issue their pronouncements when so much about this game is still anything but. Rajai Davis’ do get better— sometime much better— with consistent playing time. Young hitters reach new levels of performance. It is possible for a team playing 60 games and hitting the cover off of the ball to be closer to the truth than that same team playing 90 games— maybe not likely, but possible. Very possible. But around here such beliefs get assaulted, ridiculed, and treated like crap.
By people who think they know so much. And thus my post which I have deleted in terms of its sarcasm. But I was making a point. The ease by which someone says “gascan to Sacramento” is, I believe, hurtful to the appreciation we can have of a young team on the make. But that is only my opinion and let a million of them bloom.
Cahill's success is never going to be fielding independent.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
He did get plenty of Ks in A and AA
I was more pointing out at least one measure where one could have expected glavin and Maddux to be better.
This is the sentiment you should have been aiming for from the start
I still think you’re lacking the scouting/statistical ammo to win this fight against the guy you’re calling out.
The monster at the end of this blog.
THe questions with Cahill
are mechanics and pitches, not so much results, which have been mixed as all seem to agree.
and his last outing....
was a) pure luck; b) he figured out his mechanics on this one night only; or c) didn’t really happen
I would bet on luck at this point
What about the week before? where he went 3 strong?
He in not throwing his curveball which was a strikeout pitch coming up. he admits his arm slot moves thoughout the game. he has been erratic all year and bad at the beginning. What is wrong with working on the mechanical things in AAA?
His last 7 starts
have featured 1— count ‘em— 1 HR ball. After 25 in the ones (23)previous. In 42 IP. And an ERA under 3. It’s possible the leap is happening right now under our very eyes.
He's a sinkerball pitcher. He's not SUPPOSED to give up HR balls.
But since you’re, for some who the hell knows reason, arbitrarily picking his last 7 starts…
He’s only struck out 24 in those 42 innings, but he’s walked 13.
He is not missing enough bats.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Tough to strike out folks without a breaking ball
He doesn’t have a lot of speed seperation between his 4 seam and 2 seam fastballs and his change-up isn’t of the Trevor Hoffman variety.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Probably why
if he doesn’t show up in spring with the curve working and the confidence to use it, he should start out in AAA until he does/can. If he does, then give him another shot.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
I disagree
the leap is happening right now under our very eyes
I think it’s happening before our noses.
m*****f***ing c***s***ing peanut butter and jelly!! f*** f*** f***!!!
I'm pretty sure it's happening above our lips.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Is he a full-time scout???
Does he believe that Cahill couldn’t improve his 2nd year? I’ll take my chances.
Are you a full time scout?
Because unless you are, your opinion that Cahill doesn’t need time in AAA will be flying in the face of some pretty damning numbers.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Re: ERA and ERA+
That’s a real shame. There may be better measures, but they’re not entirely useless. Not even being allowed into the conversation unless you use the most cutting edge metrics (which, ironically, are most likely to possess serious undiscovered flaws) is kind of pointless.
Still, you’re right that far more points of reference are needed than two pitchers to make a coherent argument. The idea that pitchers make leaps in development seems entirely reasonable.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
ERA is crap in this type of discussion
ERA+ at least factors in park and league factors.
I’m just saying if you’re going to throw down the gauntlet like this you better have more in your bag o’ tricks then ERA+.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Why?
There’s more than one way to achieve results, and much like Herm Edwards, I firmly believe it’s the results that matter.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
This year, the results have kinda sucked.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Because the real question is:
Is Cahill’s 2009 ERA+ repeatable?
The best way to keep runs from scoring is to A) Not give up HR. B) Not put a lot of guys on base. C) Strike out a bunch of batters.
When you look at Cahill’s season line (which is what ERA+ is doing) he doesn’t do any of those secondary things well… which suggests he was lucky this season and it is unwise to bet on him being as lucky next year.
I think there is an argument to be made that supports keeping Cahill in Oakland next season but it’s not on this thread.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Or D) get a bunch of ground balls.
There’s no arguing that all the stuff that says his FIP is bad don’t look good. I’m not sure pure luck is the only valid conclusion one can draw from such data. Luck has to be part of it, but throwing a baseball that moves more than Stomper in his pre-game routine has something to do with it, too.
The main reason I believe Cahill should be in the rotation next year is because he has shown improvement over the course of the year, and I don’t think making his job easier is going to make him better. Businesses (or schools, an even better example) don’t get better by asking their employees for less.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Remember... me likely Cahill in Oakland next season
Cahill hasn’t gotten the GBs he had in the minors, but I agree, his ability to keep the ball down is a plus and will buy him something regarding his ERA (and ERA+).
The monster at the end of this blog.
More
His ERA+ is unlikely to be repeatable based on what he did last season, but he’s not going to do what he did last season next season, regardless of what level he does it at. Unless, of course, he is a bust that will probably never be good at baseball.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Again.....
see above. 1 HR ball in the last 42 innings.
And again...
That is something you should have said in your original post. Instead, you were too busy being cute in trying to bait PT.
The monster at the end of this blog.
threw down what gauntlet?
My position is simple and hardly earth-shattering: that improvement is a) very possible; b) likely to be non-incremental if it comes; and c) will not be helped along by a stint in AAA
The other position is that he’ll do worse and should be sent down. Like I said, I’ll take my chances. The only thing is since he will be in the rotation next year, we’ll never know how the Sacramento option would play out.
I read your original post
You bitch slapped PT and challenged him to step up.
The monster at the end of this blog.
I'm looking at the post after it's been edited.
While it’s not overtly offensive now, it’s still obviously being made personal and directed at one particular person.
I think the Cahill stuff might have made an interesting discussion if it weren’t personalized, but as it is, this post is just about taking sides, which is totally unconstructive.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
I doubt Paul would agree with this assertion:
PT believes, as do many others, that since Trevor Cahill has been a “gascan” in all but three starts, he stands little chance of improvement
PaulThomas:
I fully agree that he’s improving.
At the beginning of the year he was OMG-cover-your-eyes-I-can’t-believe-this horrible. Now he’s merely bad. If we’re lucky, he might improve to "average" by the end of next season.
I’d much rather see that improvement take place in a location where it does not incidentally interfere with the A’s chances of contention next season, viz, Sacramento.
by LongLiveLangerhans on Sep 20, 2009 6:08 PM PDT up reply actions
move up a little in the same thread...
and you’ll find it. Selective reporting is not nice.
Why don't you link "it" here?
‘cuz I have no idea what you’re talking about.
by LongLiveLangerhans on Sep 20, 2009 6:36 PM PDT up reply actions
Selective reporting like conveniently choosing only two
pitchers that match Cahill’s first year line? Not going to bother to do it myself, but I wouldn’t be the least surprised if you found a strong majority of the pitchers with ERA+ line you shared in comparison with Cahill to have flamed out and have done nothing with their career. Two cases, selective at that, is not just small sample, it’s no sample.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
And doing an edit job like this
without adding an “UPDATE” section explaining what all of our comments are about, and apologizing for it, is just avoiding responsibility for what you did. As if you don’t really think you did anything wrong, you just don’t want to get in trouble for it.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
The sad thing about this post
is it has the bones to be a great case for leaving Cahill in the rotation next year. Can someone try to rewrite it in less of a Degrassi Junior High kind of fashion?
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
What the Hell is Degrassi?
And would I be better off not knowing?
The monster at the end of this blog.
Degrassi Junior High is TEH AWESOM
both the 80’s version AND the 00’s version.
You cannot deny its awesomeness
by cityplANner on Sep 20, 2009 11:04 PM PDT up reply actions
um... yes...
yes I can.
"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Sep 21, 2009 9:42 AM PDT up reply actions
if Degrassi denial is wrong,
then I don’t EVER want to be right!
"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Sep 21, 2009 10:17 PM PDT up reply actions
For some reason...
I always want to say “He helped Gilllligaaaaaaaaaaan OFF THE ISLAND!” Anytime I hear a version of the phrase above.
You'd be better off not knowing.
Unless you really like teen angst.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
The more AN changes
the more Oaktoon stays the same.
"We've come a long way, and I'm not talking about Virginia Slims, either." - Art Howe
by EastCoastA on Sep 20, 2009 6:31 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
I'm hoping you're implying that jasonthea is oaktoon, and not that I am...
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
No, he's implying that jasonthea is oaktoon,
which makes him very perceptive.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Yep, and like his other 4 or 5 other re-incarnations
he plays “nice” for a while (sort of) and then completely drops off a cliff decorum-wise.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
I've asked the mods how they want it handled
It may be “see ya, thea.”
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Maybe after he leaves (via banning or just later)
we can hold a poll for his next name.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
How are we figuring he's oaktoon?
He’s really been able to cut back on the excessive punctuation marks, hasn’t he????
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
True. But those with access to a combination of "tells"
and IP address info can figure stuff out…
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I thought sock-puppeting was an insta-ban. Is that wrong?
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Some places have a
“No Shirt
No Shoes
No Service”
policy.
However, on the internet you’re banned if you do wear a shirt or shoes.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I'm so glad you didn't say pants!
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
I'm wearing a bra right now...
"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Sep 20, 2009 10:36 PM PDT up reply actions
And nothing else?
You fit right in!
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball." -- Connie Mack
He surely is Oaktoon, and Madmongoose, and Windyfelix
The stylistic similarities are uncanny, and the evidence of the new accounts each being created on the same day of the previous accounts’ last login is damning.
m*****f***ing c***s***ing peanut butter and jelly!! f*** f*** f***!!!
I will toot JL's horn and note than he spotted this a good 5-6 months ago
With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery
I don't have a real answer to that,
But I’m guessing that they’ve never really had to. AN’s an unusually nice online community.
only if we can turn in real shards of pottery with our votes on them
by cityplANner on Sep 20, 2009 11:06 PM PDT up reply actions
but don't worry, he'll be back
just like Oaktoon
by cityplANner on Sep 20, 2009 11:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Personally, I would not be in favor of banning an IP.
If a guy manages to get himself banned under one name. I’m all for letting him try again with a new identity. If he’s still a jerk, he’ll get himself banned again soon enough. But if he’s ready to make a fresh start and be a positive contributor this time around, then having a new name is an excellent way to do get rid of all the baggage and prejudices that went with the old name.
I believe in second chances. And yes, third, fourth, or fifth chances, too.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
That's exactly how I've done it
If you’re not acting like “oaktoon” there’s no problem, but soon as you do, you don’t get 3 strikes. Such as, I never banned “jasonthea” but I did ban “oaktoon” as soon as I saw him.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Perhaps he'll do better on his sixth chance.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
Without getting into this debate
I feel that Cahill has shown enough improvement in several areas this year to warrant him staying up in Oakland next year at least to begin the season. And it’s not like we have a lot of guys who performed better than him that would push him out of the rotation. IMO he’s the #3 in the rotation next year behind Anderson and Braden and eventually Outman.
"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin
How dare you address the one constructive aspect of the OP!
"I did nothing. I did absolutely nothing, and it was everything that I thought it could be." -- Peter Gibbons
by dtownmbrown on Sep 21, 2009 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions
My bad guys
"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin
by Helloooo 1st on Sep 21, 2009 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions
anyhow
As discussed earlier, Cahill ditched the knuckle-curve that wasn’t working for him anyway and has had real trouble finding a consistent arm slot, even admitting that he can’t tell when he’s lost it. That suggests that he needs to work those things out and find a different approach. On the other hand, his changeup has improved by leaps and bounds, and after the first two innings of his last start he started to find more consistency/accuracy in his pitches (as far as I recall, anyway. someone might want to check on that). I think he could stay in the A’s plans for next year if he continues to show that consistency. He doesn’t need to be great, just demonstrate that he does’t have any crazy flaws that need to be worked on in a more low-stress environment.
I'm inclined to think the interests of comity and public order
would be well-served by my declining to issue an extensive response to this post.
Yea or nay?
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Sep 20, 2009 6:48 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
What would be interesting to me
would be to hear your predictions, and why, on Cahill v.2010 assuming (and this is all best case, but hopefully realistic, scenario) that under C. Young and Romanick’s tutelage, Cahill is able to keep a more repeatable arm slot and develops the slider better as a replacement to the knuckle-curve.
The changeup has come along really nicely, and the sinker command depends a lot on arm slot repeatability. I could see Cahill continuing to make strides that are leap-like, if things go well, more than I can see it with Gio or Mazzaro.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Sep 20, 2009 6:52 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I wouldn't mind seeing PT
put together his own post/argument for his thoughts on Cahill including what he sees as the best plan for his/the A’s success. But this is definitely not the place to do it. It’s better served to be promoted as his own “staturday” sort of piece when he has the chance to really articulate his argument instead of involving himself in a baiting war that he’s more than proven he’s above.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
Sure, sounds good
I’m always looking for new ideas.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
Probably
But I think there’s a discussion that could be had about Cahill’s prospects in 2010 without taking the bait from jasonthea.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
I always like to read your stuff
Don’t care if you address the poster, more interested in Cahill thoughts
You could always wait for my post on keeping Cahill in Oakland next season
The monster at the end of this blog.
I'd prefer PT did exactly that, and otherwise ignore this Oaktoon troll-attempt
"If Vin Mazzaro comes anywhere near me with shaving cream he’s gonna be coming away with a bloody stump" – Dallas Braden
I would like to hear more from PT on this
But not here. My vote is nay. And it might be more interesting to wait until after the season, and after Cahill’s final couple of starts.
I'd like to read what you have to say on this topic, but not in this fanpost, which should have been deleted
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
As far as why I didn't delete it,
by the time I saw the post it had something like 75 comments, and I’m always hesitant to do too much “revisionist history,” i.e., deleting something that already has a lot of conversation in it.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I meant that jasonthea should have deleted it and started from scratch, rather than editing
and should have put a note in the new fanpost explaining what he did and why he deleted and reposted.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Oh! Me misunderstandy.
Or perhaps he should have taken half your advice: deleted it and started from scratch but then not re-posted it.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I'd vote the latter
Though, leaving it “as is” as you suggest is nice. Kind of like seeing the scattered pieces of car in the middle of the road while sitting around shooting the shit on the corner talking about the traffic accident an hour ago.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
Not necessarily.
Just address the idea and ignore the author. That’s a good life skill, anyway. Great opportunity to add to a meaningful topic of discussion without sinking to anyone’s level.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
I vote for declining.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
I decline to vote.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I usually do, too.
But then again, I’m an anarcho-fascist, so I probably would do something like that…
"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Sep 21, 2009 9:48 AM PDT up reply actions
Yea
"Tonto think Billy Beane need to make team full of squirrels and bears."
by OptimistPrime on Sep 21, 2009 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions
Cahill
Definitely deserves to be in the Majors, I really don’t think he has anything to glean from AAA. He is the future, along with others, but in a sense he is a pitcher who will hopefully lead the A’s to the “Promised Land.” I agree with your arguments, not everybody is going to jump in the league and Lincecum it up.
All that being said you are still a dick for calling somebody out like that, especially over the internet. Get some balls, and some dignity and just politely disagree.
I'm the genius who said Chris Carter will slug .650 his rookie season.
As Poochini can attest, balls and dignity go hand in hand.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
If I could only choose one
I’d choose the former.
Luckily, I have two hands.
"I did nothing. I did absolutely nothing, and it was everything that I thought it could be." -- Peter Gibbons
by dtownmbrown on Sep 21, 2009 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Once again...
another post that focuses on specific posters instead of the A’s. Sigh.
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
Remember back when AN was good?
I think it was around 11:00am this morning, but I don’t have a watch so don’t quote me.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Yeah... may favorite part was reading the recap of today's game. That was awesome.
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
Seriously? I took one look at the byline
and said, “Yeah right, I’m not wasting my time reading that moron’s stuff.”
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Every moron has his day!
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
When is "Moron Day" anyway?
I enjoyed “Talk Like A Pirate Day.” We do it at our school every year — you hear a lot of stuff like, “Why did we trade McClouth?” and “Maybe we’ll get over .500 next decade.”
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Sep 20, 2009 7:28 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
NICE
What you fail to understand in your joyless myopia is that baseball is the key to life-- the Rosetta Stone, if you will. If you just understood baseball better all your other questions your, your... the, uh... the aliens, the conspiracies they would all, in their way be answered by the baseball gods.
YARRRRRRRR
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
QOTM very very well played
one of the more humorous things I can remember you saying.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 20, 2009 9:29 PM PDT up reply actions
Nope... I have had a high fever all week though.
I just have a long history with talk like a pirate day, and thought the turn of phrase was very clever.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 20, 2009 10:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Nope, you're drunk.
I can tell from your spelling.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
Is it correct?
If it is I am surely drunk.
How much Nyquil can I drink again?
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 21, 2009 12:42 AM PDT up reply actions
I don't know about the 13th step,
but I could teach a grad-level course on tussin…
"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Sep 21, 2009 9:49 AM PDT up reply actions
You should have written a fanpost about it!
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
I'm too busy working on one titled,
Yet Again, What Are The Chances Of The A’s Getting To .500?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
And that is a bad thing?
In all seriousness, it is kinda a fun diversion sometimes.
"Tonto think Billy Beane need to make team full of squirrels and bears."
by OptimistPrime on Sep 21, 2009 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions
I've been inspired by some of these fanposts the last couple of days
and I’ve decided that in my first fanpost I will tell it like it is.
I have evidence that I will back up with pictures that Nico hates fish. How do I know this? He actually took out garbage and waste off the beach and shoreline. Hey Nico what are the fish supposed to eat?
I will show that Flashfire spends his days taking pictures at minor league baseball games. Why does he do this? isn’t it obvious so he can blackmail future A’s players for wearing those awful Rivercats jerseys.
And Leopold Bloom well let’s just say it involves cough syrup and pizza. So watch out my friends as I blow the lid off of AN. Oh and could someone give me Lew Wolff’s e-mail address I have some things I’d like to share with him.
You're close
The Midland jerseys are worse and I HAVE CHRIS CARTER IN IT AHAHAHAAAAAA!!!!
Ahem.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
my next fanpost
why chris carter won’t save 2011, time to blow up the team and rebuild for 2015 is sure to be great.
its all based on my opinions based on FF’s pictures
Actually, a good post on why Buck and Gallagher never played
could easily involve pictures.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
never get caught in bed with a live Buck
or a dead Gallagher…
"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Sep 20, 2009 10:40 PM PDT up reply actions
You know you're an A's fan who spends too much time on AN when
you read that and think it says “unicorn.” Which I seriously did.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Yeah, I was thinking...
why on earth is he gonna put Ellis on him?!?
"The only way I'm going to get a Gold Glove is with a can of spray paint." - Reggie Jackson
by the_rozeboom on Sep 20, 2009 10:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Based on Slusser's latest report
you may not need to use photoshop.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
Is that before or after Slusser's report late last night?
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
What'd that one say?
What I saw stated the A’s decided not to start his clock this season.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Basically Wallace unlikely
but since Carter needs to be on the 40 man anyway, he may still come up. link.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
Ah, I did see that
This one came afterward:
“Though the team had discussed bringing up slugging first baseman Chris Carter, Geren said it is unlikely any more players will join the team. With a possible decision to make next spring between Carter and Daric Barton, the A’s decided to leave Barton at first the rest of the way.
“Chris has had a great season and he’ll be forcing his way into the picture sometime, just not at this point,” Geren said."
Last of the Ninth - Photography
aha... photoshop it is then
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
Talk about posting fail
direct response Nico’s way.
I'll have a sandwich and a draft(sic). - Bill King (RIP)
At least he didn't try to fight Lew Wolff via email?
looking for a bright spot people.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 20, 2009 8:48 PM PDT reply actions
dang
I missed the OG post with the childish namecalling and got left with a somewhat decent argument to a ridiculous notion thats never going to happen anyway.
Saying this as someone
who sees no reason to send Cahill down, I’d have to say this is a pretty lousy argument against a ridiculous notion that’s never going to happen.
Pointing to two pitchers who are likely headed for the HoF as comps for a 21 year old in his rookie season is just a bad argument. Were someone inclined to do so, they could certainly counter it by finding two rookie pitchers who had similar seasons and promptly dropped off the face of the Earth.
I think you missed the stuff before it was altered
it was a dickish post in its original writing. Its OK in its updated form, but still jerky.
hey everybody, I've got a comprehensive solution...
and it should make everybody happy…
Let’s have Cahill COMPETE for a starting job in spring training next year. Wow, what a novel concept!
Let’s negotiate a deal in which Jasonthea is banned, but immediately comes back as “Windy Oakthea,” a dashing young A’s loving lass who steals the hearts of male AN’ers while hiding a deep dark secret.
Let’s sue somebody and go on one of those TV judge shows, where PT can represent us.
I think that covers it. Let the carnage begin.
"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Sep 20, 2009 10:45 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Okay, I laughed...
Let’s negotiate a deal in which Jasonthea is banned, but immediately comes back as "Windy Oakthea," a dashing young A’s loving lass who steals the hearts of male AN’ers while hiding a deep dark secret.
"Bobby Crosby at third is a bit of an adventure. And not like, here’s some hidden treasure, what fun. More like, gah! poison ants!" --alea iacta est
by baseballgirl on Sep 21, 2009 9:13 AM PDT up reply actions
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones."
-BB 07/27/05
Never, EVER stop in the middle of a hoedown
m*****f***ing c***s***ing peanut butter and jelly!! f*** f*** f***!!!
music helps oaktoon think
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones."
-BB 07/27/05
My reasons for not sending Cahill down for 2010
Even if it makes 100% sense that we can expect a regression and that his 2009 performance might not be repeatable (I’m skeptical on this, I think he can improve), I don’t think all baseball decisions should be made as if baseball was a video game. The human element does come into play, and the fact is, FIP be damned, Cahill had a good rookie season for a 21-year-old. Though I understand baseball is a business, I am not in favor of making decisions that DEMOTE people specifically for labor purposes of retaining their control and keeping them off the free market for another year— As a human being, I don’t think that’s a nice thing to do, and would not advocate my team doing it. Let him do something that actually deserves demotion, like both suck at pitching and have sucky numbers before you demote him. I don’t think it reflects well on a team, or on its reputation in the league to attract star players and boost team morale to get the reputation of arbitrarily demoting players who most would generally say have been successful based on “more accurate” statistics, when clearly its just business.
I am not challenging the validity of the stats, I understand that Cahill’s true pitching quality has been significantly worse than his mainstream statistics suggest; It just doesn’t strike me as the right thing to do purely from a human relational standpoint and from a good employer-employee relationship standpoint.
Jeremy was safe. He jumped over the tag.
So nevermind the stats, Cahill had a good season just because you say so?
What exactly is your reasoning for this?
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
I think he means Cahill improved over time,
got his feet wet, learned and came out of it better for the experience, etc.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
If we had better pitching in the minors
he may very well have received that demotion this year. We didn’t, and he continued to be one of the best 5 in-system. If he starts next year in AAA, it’ll be because this year wasn’t good and he needs to work on things. It won’t be a matter of controlling his FA timetable.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
But don't forget that there are people who want Cahill in Sac next year
strictly because they want to control his arbitration clock.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Would you like to link a post which says this?
Because I haven’t seen such a person around these parts.
I just ran a search for “cahill arbitration” and the best I could come up with was one comment from May which just didn’t mention performance at all (so it’s entirely possible the commenter thought Cahill’s performance was poor) and a fanpost from spring training talking about this season.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
Sure
Not to sinlge anyone out, simply the most recent incident.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Obviously, Cahill needs some polish.
Doesn’t fit your criteria. He’s referencing performance as well as arbitration status.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
Everyone agrees Cahill needs more polish
Saying he needs to get better is like saying “Yeah, continued breathing would help.” Brenarlo’s point is very clear, why not just thank me for providing the link and move on?
The monster at the end of this blog.
I didn't make you use the word "strictly"...
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
Possibly the weakest counter-argument you've ever made
It’s sad how you can’t admit to being wrong on even the slightest thing. Only when you realize there is absolutely no hope of you proving your point will you back down. (Zips RoS being a case in point.) There’s standing by your convictions and then there’s being petty.
In case that’s too subtle… you’re being petty.
The monster at the end of this blog.
It’s sad how you can’t admit to being wrong on even the slightest thing.
lol
With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery
by mikeA on Sep 21, 2009 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
There is the potential for irony here
Fortunately, I have the memory of too many WTF calls to help keep me in check.
And never, ever use the term “significant” around salb.
The monster at the end of this blog.
I, personally, would have gone with something about pots and kettles.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
I'm not a cliche-peddler
With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery
You tend to have too much
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
But I'm a beautiful and unique snowflake...
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
And I'm not the imaginary figure to tell you otherwise
Be happy, lil’ snowflake.
The monster at the end of this blog.
I remember this one time where I thought I was wrong.
But I was mistaken.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
First rule of being wrong:
You aren’t wrong.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
I'm not going to admit to being wrong when I'm not wrong...
You used a straw man (twice, in fact; you did it on the other thread, too). The fact that a non-parodied (and, I might add, lawful, as opposed to contract-breaching) version of that argument is actually advocated by some posters doesn’t make your parody version accurate.
This constituency which is able to rationalize the positions “Cahill is one of the top 5 SP options for next year” and “He should be sent to the minors anyway” does not, as far as I can tell, exist, except as a useful prop for you to shoot holes in.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
I realize you're studying law
Which probably means you could find a loophole around death and taxes, but brenarlo was clearly arguing that the A’s should send Cahill to AAA next year regardless of his performance simply to keep his service clock in check for a few weeks. DFA chimed in and said he’d argue in favor of the same idea.
Go ahead and do the legalese version of sticking your fingers in your ears and singing “Henry the 8th I am” at the top of your lungs, it doesn’t change the fact that the topic has been discussed on this board. Your claims of me using a straw man argument are false and you appear to be more concerned with minutia than the heart of the matter.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Id argue that the team should go with the highest expected value
I would argue that putting Cahill in AAA is the side with the highest expected value.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 23, 2009 4:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah
I won’t really bother to engage in the arbitration clock issue. That was best served for this year before giving him a MLB job. Once that was done, to me it’s over with. Now, as an added bonus, sure, that’s nice, but never something that should enter into the argument at this point. Partly because the FO as openly stated it doesn’t matter to them (by show of action) and partly because it’s a pretty big dick move.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
Yes, but is it a pretty big SWINGING dick move?
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
Cahill will get his shot in ST 2010
Where does Cahill start next season will depend on how he finishes this year and especially on how he looks in ST. If he can continue his August-September improvement, he’ll get the job, if he starts to miss his spots and walk too many people like he did earlier this year, he’ll go to AAA. I don’t know why are people taking such definitive positions on the issue that management won’t settle for next six months.
I'm pretty sure that had Gio been healthy and/or Gallagher thrown well,
Cahill would have started 2009 in AAA. A lot went wrong in spring training for Cahill to make the top 5 from the outset.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Wasn't Cahill announced for the starting 5
before Anderson was? I suppose that doesn’t necessarily mean Cahill was decided first, but the way the pre-season played out it sounded like Cahill was the first rookie they turned to to fill in.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
Well, to be sure, it was pretty clear in April that Anderson shouldn't have been in the majors, either
Didn’t really matter which one they tapped first; neither one of them was ready.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
I don't really agree with that, actually
I never had a problem with Anderson making the rotation and felt his situation was apples and oranges from Cahill’s — Anderson was polished in a way that Cahill simply was, and is, not.
BTW, PT, just on a “funny how guys evolve” level, I recall that one of your big concerns with Anderson in spring training was his lack of Ks. That seems odd now, doesn’t it? He sure has a strikeout pitch now! (Pretty awesome “back foot slider.”)
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I never thought he would struggle with strikeouts in the long term
I mean, the reason why I was ranking him as high as #4 on last year’s top 100 prospects list is because of his near-unique combination of high strikeouts, low walks, high groundballs and plus stuff grades from scouts.
But, basically, he needed another month to two months in the minors, and the A’s shot themselves in the foot in both the short and long term by not giving it to him. The best I can hope for coming from that is that they’ve built up some good faith with him for working toward a long-term contract.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
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