Are we done with the aging veterans strategy?
by SheridanH on Sep 10, 2009 8:42 AM PDT
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PrintSo we're in our 4th or 5th year of Billy inserting an aging veteran in the line-up - Thomas (x2), Giambi, Piazza, Sweeney, Nomar, Giambi. And with the exception of Thomas first time around it's basically failed. Sure the costs haven't been huge from a $ standpoint, but there's the opportunity costs of a player taking up a position. Giving we're not contending next year, unless I'm missing something, or a lot of our younger players have monster years, I'm not sure we need another veteran. Now the argument could be clubhouse presence, but it seems to me that players like Kurt and Ellis have enough leadership in the clubhouse, and others like Rajai and Ryan are also good enough to have an influence.
Oh and besides we might not have to get an aging veteran who breaks down and is an around good egg - step forward Mr. Chavez.
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Pitcher
Unless Duke comes back, I think the need to sign a veteran starting pitcher is higher than signing a veteran position player. Other than Anderson and Braden, we don’t really have anyone that we know won’t get shelled after 3 innings. We do have cash to spend from the expiring contracts this year so perhaps we can do both?
It should be considered a rebuilding year next year but I don’t think I can stand the team play losing baseball one more time. I’d like the team to be playing .500 ball at least
If it's to be a starting pitcher,
the only name I could get excited about is Lackey…and boy would he cost (compensatory pick and much cash). But you know what, it wouldn’t make sense to go with a half-assed pitcher and try to win on the cheap. On the cheap would be rolling with the yound men the team already has and seeing what pans out. Lackey, however, is an ace. And an ace of his quality would bump four young guys down a spot in the rotation and give them more favorable match-ups.
Gotta pay to play!
by LowcountryJoe on Sep 10, 2009 6:07 PM PDT up reply actions
So no interest in Hudson?
What if he was looking for a 1 year (Proving-I’m-Healthy) deal?
The monster at the end of this blog.
Or the Duke.
Founding member of the Eric Patterson fan club.
There is Duke but he does not excite me.
He’s a solid middle-of-the-order guy but if it were my call [and of course it’s not] he’s take innings away from a prospect who may or may not pan out on the cheap.
by LowcountryJoe on Sep 10, 2009 7:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Duke has ace potential.
Well last I checked…it remains to be seen how he recovers from everything. But I think the A’s should give him a shot.
Founding member of the Eric Patterson fan club.
Hudson is a pitcher I didn't consider
I have a feeling he will resign with Atlanta, at a discount if need be, since he is from Georgia. Whether Atlanta has a spot for him is another matter. But if he wanted to come back, and it were my decision, I’d entertain it. Not sure how he’d fare back in the AL with a DH in the heart of the order rather than a pitcher at the bottom of it.
by LowcountryJoe on Sep 10, 2009 7:18 PM PDT up reply actions
It never bothered him much before
If he’s healthy, he’s good, period, IMO.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Atlanta already has five solid starting pitchers
The reason they are theorized to be releasing Hudson in the first place is that they need the money for offensive upgrades.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
I'd LOVE to see Huddy back with he A's
Huge upside in the clubhouse I think.
"Baseball is dull only to dull minds." Red Barber
by BERRYJO on Sep 12, 2009 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Absolutley 100% Yes!
I would take Huddy back in a NY minute!
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
I still think
it’s worth the gamble. Everyone was excited when we signed Giambi; no one could have predicted his production would plummet as far as it did.
Incorrect.
Plenty of people did not want Giambi to be signed and I know that I have specifically said that he could very well completely fall off the cliff this year. Which he did.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
I was with Mike on that.
I strenuously did not want Giambi, and though I don’t think I ever put a number on his projected suck, I never expected him to actually be good.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
Ok
2 people didn’t want Giambi back, but inserting another big bat to go along with Holliday, Chavez, Cust, and Nomar did look good on paper at the beginning of the season.
by sf drift king on Sep 10, 2009 10:44 AM PDT up reply actions
There were far more than 2.
I’m just too lazy to go search.
In short, signing Giambi created a logjam that wasn’t necessary. It cost Barton a year of development in the bigs, forced Cust to play the field way too much, etc.
Over and done now, though.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
i tend to think of the giambi move as more of an inexpensive PR strategy than a baseball one. as in, they might have brought him back with an eye on fans who’d dropped off during his time in rehab.
don't care if i ever get back.
by AV on Sep 10, 2009 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Barton? Ferreal??
Barton was not good at AAA and continues to be way not good at MLB level. He’s a lost cause and Im glad we took a chance that Giambi might not regress 170 OPS points (oops, he did. however you somehow predicted this, kudos I guess?).
Just semantics, I know, but
since people use the term all the time, it’s worth clarifying.
Giambi did not regress 170 OPS, at least not the in the “regression to the mean” sense of the word. He declined.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
Barton was fucking amazing in AAA.
He had a terrible April, but OPSed around .900 after that.
Founding member of the Eric Patterson fan club.
Gonna have to disagree with you here good buddy
Barton’s suckitude in 2008 necessitated the A’s feeling the need to find another option (Giambi) in 2009.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Barton was 22 in 2008
"Chicks dig the long ball, although fat chicks will settle for warning track power" - Nick Diamond
and your point was?
Evan Longoria was 21.
by sf drift king on Sep 10, 2009 7:42 PM PDT up reply actions
Why are you comparing people to Longoria...?
If you think Billy Beane is a bad GM, I hate you and find you stupid.
because
when we got Barton, he was suppose to be this stud of a prospect; many compared his abilities to that of Pujols once he matured. <> He was 19 when we traded for him, he’s now 24.
by sf drift king on Sep 10, 2009 7:59 PM PDT up reply actions
Please show me one Pujols comparison from a legit source
if you do Ill eat my hat.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 10, 2009 8:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Year's ago
at the time of that Mulder trade, there were comparison’s to Pujols. I will look it up and you my friend will be eating a hat. lol
Btw, will be at Pop Scene later tonight to see War Tapes.
by sf drift king on Sep 10, 2009 8:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Good to see you on Thursday
but the mentions of Pujols are in the contexts of their low A seasons and have absolutely nothing to do with projecting Barton to have the kind of power that Pujols does.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 12, 2009 5:56 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't think even the Player's Union
has the kind of power Pujols does. The guy is fricking amazing.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
kind of...
that was from a google search for “daric barton albert pujols”. i’m sure the drift king will delve a little deeper.
Eh, but my argument the whole time has been (was?) this:
Giambi’s declined every year since 2005. His OPS+ by year since then is 161, 148, 108, 128, and then 92 this year.
Even if you give him a pass on 2007 because he was injured, it’s a consistent decline that’s carried through his mid 30s.
Coupled with the fact that his defense is awful, it wasn’t a stretch to think that he would continue his decline and end up with somewhere around a 110-115 OPS+ as a best case scenario, OR that he would fall off a cliff at age 37… which he did.
Barton’s defense at first base is enough of an improvement over Giambi that the difference beween Giambi’s 92 OPS+ and Barton’s 82 probably wasn’t worth Giambi’s salary.
I mean, really, if the idea was to actually compete and get some serious bats, why the hell didn’t we go after Adam Dunn? All he’s gonna do is hit 40 homers this year. Again. With a 152 OPS+. For 2 years, 20 million.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
i know i got ignored upstairs already, but my point was exactly this: “the idea […] to actually compete and gets some serious at-bats…” wasn’t necessarily the idea. the idea may have been to pull the strings of sentiment and bring back some ticket-buying fans. call it a conflict of interest, but that’s what you get when competition flirts with showbiz.
don't care if i ever get back.
by AV on Sep 11, 2009 1:08 AM PDT up reply actions
okay, so that idea turned out like shit as well.
However, I’m not sure that I buy it.
Do you really think that signing Giambi brought over 6 million dollars in added revenue to the team?
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
not in effect. but i thought the intent was there. he just kind-of-sucked so much that it didn’t work. call it a roster decision that backfired. we’ve seen that before.
i’m drunk just in from a bar. don’t mind my stupid logic. but what the hell are YOU doing up this late?
don't care if i ever get back.
by AV on Sep 11, 2009 1:21 AM PDT up reply actions
Slow cooking an 8 pound pork butt.
I put it on at midnight, probably be done some time tomorrow afternoon.
Just making sure the temperature stays stable before I crash out.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
WORD
do you have a smoker, or are you using the oven? i usually find 5-6 lb butt shoulders in shop-rite (regional grocery store) and throw them in the oven with the pan pretty sealed with foil for 6-7 hours at either 225 or 250, which i alternate between pretty arbitrarily.
my gf got me a grill for my birthday, but unfortunately it doesn’t have the left-right burner setup that is most conducive to indirect slow cooking. it is a weber with a horizontal straight burner in the center and then a rectangular perimeter burner. the 2 operate independently, but even if i can keep the temp down below 300 by propping up the lid a little bit, replacing wood in the smoker box or tossing in new foil packets of wood chips is going to be a pain since i’ll have to put the meat in the center of the grill and thus pick the meat and the cast-iron grates up in order to get down to the burners.
good luck. i’d love to trade some BBQ tips and techniques.
Big Green Egg
If you don’t have one yet, you need one. Trust me on this.
I did the 8lb butt at 250 for SIXTEEN HOURS on 1 load of lump charcoal.
It was fantastic.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
the single load of lump coal burned 16 hours????
that is awesome. i have to watch some of the videos on the BGE site when i get home tonight.
this woke me up HUNGRY.
don't care if i ever get back.
by AV on Sep 11, 2009 9:47 AM PDT up reply actions
Are you kidding me with Barton?
Seriously, Barton had 1 good month(some call it a fluke month) in 2007, and ALL of 2008 to prove himself. And he didn’t impress, if he had, Giambi wouldn’t have been signed.
by sf drift king on Sep 10, 2009 7:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Wow
People think I’m making this up when I say it, but people actually criticize Barton because he wasn’t like Pujols where he came up and destroyed the league.
He was 22. Imagine if we had given up on Tejada after his first year.
Yet these same people criticize the A’s for not waiting like 8 years for guys like Carlos Pena and Nelson Cruz.
"Chicks dig the long ball, although fat chicks will settle for warning track power" - Nick Diamond
Yes, they can have it both ways...
…in any conversation. And no matter what they’ll be correct; just look at the numbers for Pete’s sake; with the benefit of hindsight, one does not have to be reasonable in their arguements.
by LowcountryJoe on Sep 11, 2009 3:26 AM PDT up reply actions
That presumes that one perceived Giambi as a "big bat"
Many people did not. That’s the point. (Ditto for Nomar.)
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
And of course he's batting something like .375 with the Rockies now
Go figure, right?
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
It's been going on even longer than that
Eric Karros, Todd Walker, David Justice….My biggest complaint is that these players almost always seem only able to play DH/1B. I agree that a veteran SP would be helpful (as it would have this year as well).
I remember Beane saying that he didn't want to pay
for past performance. While in part any future projection is based on past performance, many saw his statement as a general disinclination to sign aging veterans as anything more than targeted role players. If they work out, great, but they are not the linchpins of the team — and you certainly don’t depend on a bunch of them to be healthy and productive day in and day out.
That doesn’t sound like the signings of Giambi, Cabrera, and Nomar in the offseason before the 2009 season. I would have been happier (and I said as much in the preseason) if he had signed or traded for one veteran pitcher in view of Duchshcerer’s injury history, instead of signing Giambi (especially) and Nomar. (Cabrera was available relatively cheaply and was an upgrade over Crosby…and I imagine at that time the A’s were not ready to slot Pennington in that spot).
Count me as a supporter of the "veteran pitcher over veteran hitter" strategy.
Plan A: If the Braves don’t bring back Tim Hudson next year for whatever reason (decline his option/don’t negotiate to bring him back) I’d be fully in favor of the A’s aggressively pursuing him. I think he’d still be effective back in the AL, won’t need more than a 2-year deal and would be a hell of a mentor.
Plan B: Offer arbitration to The Duke and hope he accepts and/or negotiate a 1-year “make good” deal with him. I was surprised to hear that both sides (the A’s and Duke’s reps) don’t expect him to be back next season. I can’t imagine that there would be a much better situation for him to get back on his feet both mentally and physically than to take his turns in spacious Oakland Coliseum, in a low-pressure situation, without a lot of media scrutiny and in front of fans that have known him and appreciated him for years. Maybe there was just something that happened during the past season that left a sour taste in the mouths of both parties…
Plan C: Bring back Tomko on a $1 million deal or pick up someone like Kevin Correia, both guys that Beane has liked for awhile now. These guys are hardly impact arms, but they will bring some veteran savvy to the rotation and could eat innings behind the young guns.
Plan C is, sadly, the most likely scenario.
As for hitters…I see no reason/logical place to plug-in a free agent. I’d still like to see if the team could swing a reasonable deal for JJ Hardy, if for no other reason(s) that he’s probably an upgrade defensively over Pennington and can bring a bit of right-handed pop to the lineup. There’s really no other place besides shortstop and possibly 3rd (although Wallace could be ready soon and maybe even Chavez could factor in at some point).
I'm never gonna do it without the fez on!
by Taj Adib on Sep 10, 2009 11:22 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Hudson - yes!
I always thought that while Zito and Mulder had more natural talent, Huddy was a fighter, and also a great leader in the clubhouse.
I doubt Tomko will be back
and over League Minimum is too much. If he is back, it will be on a minor league contract. He is only here right now for rotation depth.
Don't believe in yourself.
Believe in Me who believes in You.
The whole Duke situation is fairly incomprehensible to me
It seems like the A’s aren’t doing a good job of communicating with his camp.
Both him and Hudson are good options, however. If you’re signing a veteran pitcher, I’d incline toward the command-and-control end of the spectrum, maybe just out of natural conservatism (not in the political sense of the word) but also because they seem a little less likely to fall apart if they suffer an incremental decline in stuff than someone like Oliver Perez.
Tomko and Correia are junk— not really worth bothering with at more than league minimum given the number of similar pitchers in the A’s system (see grover’s Monday post for verification of this fact).
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
I agree that it seems to make sense for Duke to come back.
If both sides are convinced that he won’t, I assume it’s because they know something I don’t, not that someone has botched the talks.
As for Tomko, his value is in his exceptional record of run support with the A’s. Whether that is a repeatable skill is another matter….
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
He's the cure for the A's offense!
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
Starter vs. Reliever
Justin Duchsherer spent four years, it seems, convincing A’s management to give him a chance to start. He did, and put up superb numbers. When rehabbing this year, the A’s were making noises about turning him back into a reliever.
The guy wants to start, and it sounds as if the A’s don’t want him to start. That’s enough reason to look elsewhere.
OK, but there's no logical reason why anyone would ever think of him as a reliever
If the A’s think that they are, ipso facto, being illogical.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
Well, yeah
This was the line coming out of the A’s in August, that they were planning to put him back in the bullpen.
Using my own work for anti-Tomko propaganda?!
Sneaky sir, very sneaky.
The monster at the end of this blog.
+1 on the characterization of the Duke situation.
He’s a damn good pitcher.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Yes for a vet arm, no for an aging position player
But how about going after an in-his-prime vet? Why do we sell that possibility so short? Dumb question I guess, but adding a stud in the middle would help (Holliday memories aside).
Baja been here
I don't want to appear like I'm kicking a guy when he's down, but...
…if it were up to me I would not even offer Duke a contract of any kind for next year.
In 2008 I was watching a team that was rebuilding. In 2009 I feel like I'm watching a team that just sucks.
Who is Billie?
Proofreading FAIL.
I agree with you though, I’m tired of the aging veteran batter. I would be fine with a veteran SP though.
You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}
I don't mind it.
Especially guys like Giambi, Thomas and Piazza: those are some of the best hitters of the last fifteen years. They’re contributions to the team aren’t 100% in offensive production, but they offer brains to pick that contain extremely valuable bits of information on the approach to hitting. And once in a while, the move is successful and the player performs quite well.
If you think Billy Beane is a bad GM, I hate you and find you stupid.
I don't think we're done.
We just need better veterans. I think they can provide a service if we have a hole to fill in the lineup while waiting for a young guy to make it to the show.
fair to piazza
he was picking it up in the batting department when he got body slammed during play and that could have happened to anyone. anyone playing against a lowell down dirty team, anyway…
don't care if i ever get back.
I do not think the Aging Veterans Strategy is a bad way to go
its just that we’ve been waiting a year or two too long to get those certain players. If we got those players a year or two earlier, when they were still Aging Veterans but still had something left, rather than waiting too long and getting less than the fumes, we’d come out ok.
Don't believe in yourself.
Believe in Me who believes in You.
former A's FA's next yr
giambi
holliday
springer
hudson (if option declined)
mulder
almost every A’s starting SS’s the last 10+ yrs
crosby
cabrera
tejada
scutaro
OF
dye
kotsay
damon
convince frank thomas out of retirement, tlong out of the McD’s drive through, and maybe this can be a big reunion in 2010 of lots of former A’s
The most appealing option there to me is Dye,
but of course his 2nd half performance brings up the risk that we’ll get him back jusssssst in time for a Giambi-like clifformance.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Dye isn't coming back
His worst years were here, no way he wants to come back. Tejada is the only one I might want out of that group, but I think Pennington gets the job done for much cheaper.
by TerrySteinbach on Sep 10, 2009 5:27 PM PDT up reply actions
I wouldn't count on that.
He’s a Vacaville native and has ties to northern California.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Dye appeals to you more than Miggy or Scooter?
Dont we have an enormous gaping hole at SS and 3B? We have Hairston, Davis & Sweeney in the OF and Cust at DH.
Id take Miggy back at 1/$4MM for play SS/3B.
We have a gaping hole, IMO, at
“power-hitting righty,” someone who actually belongs in the 3-4-5 spot in the order. I still think the A’s should make a play for Hardy; talk about buying low to get a player we were drooling over a year ago today. At worst he’s Crosby in his rookie year and at best he’s an All-Star.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I have a feeling Hardy will still cost way more than you might like to believe
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
If the Brewers are smart, he will,
especially if he now comes under contract through 2011. But he won’t “cost” as much as he would have a year ago, simply because the Brewers have less leverage given that his future performance is a bit less certain.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
OK
I mean, say a year ago he would have cost like Gio, Cardenas and Chris Carter.
So now he only costs Gio and Cardenas? I’m still not making that trade.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
I'd be very surprised if Milwaukee trades him and gets a package of that quality.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Agreed.
Gio and Wuertz, maybe. Gio and Buck, maybe. Gio and Cardenas, no way.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I still wouldn't make any of those deals
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
How about Mazzaro and Wuertz, or Mazzaro and Buck?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I think it's going to be really interesting to see how the JJ Hardy market evolves.
The Brew Crew simultaneously increased and decreased Hardy’s trade value by sending him to the minors…on one hand, they wrestled another year of arbitration control over him, but on the other, they publicly acknowledged just how far he slipped with the bat this season and prevented him from getting an extended, uninterrupted chance to right his ship a bit at the major league level. The extra year of control probably outweighs the other issue, but it still didn’t come without consequences that affect his trade value.
At the same time, there will likely be a few decent shortstops on the free agent market looking for short-term deals and not a huge amount of money (Tejada, Scutaro, Cabrera)…also, it’s widely known that Melvin refused to deal Alcides Escobar in various deals for pitching this season, so it seems that the Crew has already made the internal decision to go with him as their everyday shortstop for now and the future.
It all adds up, in my opinion, to a relatively depressed market for Hardy, especially if the Red Sox decide to somehow retain Alex Gonzalez, which they could do just for defensive purposes.
He still has a lot of value in the open market, there is no doubt about that, but I’ve got to think that it isn’t even equal to the two packages traded for Matt Holliday in the past calendar year.
I'm never gonna do it without the fez on!
With Green ideally needing 2 years of minor league ball
(including any major league cups of coffee) to be ready for prime time — and he’s no guarantee, but is at least a decent bet — two years of Hardy would be mucho outstanding.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Absolutely.
Even just for defense alone. If the A’s get Hardy, then they can swallow the idea of playing Brett Wallace at 3rd for the 1st year or 2 of his big league career without completely choking themselves.
The fact that JJ could somehow rediscover a 25-homer, 80-RBI bat is just icing on the cake in my opinion.
I’m guessing the A’s could probably get it done if they were to offer some combination of Sweeney/Buck/Patterson/Wuertz/H-Rod/Mortensen/Gio/Ziegler/Eveland.
I'm never gonna do it without the fez on!
Any and all of whom would be acceptable to me
in a fair deal for Hardy.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Patterson, H-Rod, and Eveland for Hardy please.
:)
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
I don't really understand why the Brewers would take that, nor why they couldn't get more from someone else.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
If every team in need of a shortstop approaches the Brewers and they in turn ask each team for...
a top pitching prospect or two, I doubt the suitors will be lining up for him. Maybe at this point last year that would be a fair way to start off negotiations, but it just isn’t anymore after Hardy’s pretty awful year. Consider also that Hardy will still likely get a raise in arbitration this year regardless of his performance and do you really think that a whole bunch of teams will be lining up to take on $5 million for an offensive wildcard AND give up a top prospect or two, while guys with better recent offensive track records (Scutaro and Tejada) will be available for a similar total amount of money in free agency and other, somewhat similar players and glovemen will be available for less than that (O-Cab, McDonald, Cora, Jack Wilson – hell, even Khalil Greene and Crosby!)
If I were the Brewers, I would aim to go quantity over quality and look to grab a few pitchers that could help them both now in the future and have the potential to be decent performers in the National League. I think a package of Mortensen, Eveland and Wuertz is not an unconceivably bad match, given that Eveland had previous success in teh Brewer organization, Mortensen keeps the ball on the ground and Wuertz could possibly be a closer for a few seasons in the National League.
Of course, the Crew would probably want Gio or Mazzaro, but in that case, if they could get a pitcher of that caliber and with their contract status, they probably wouldn’t still have Hardy right now.
I'm never gonna do it without the fez on!
Two important points, then
1. Given that players with better recent offensive track records are available for similar amounts of money in free agency, why are the A’s not signing them instead of burning off a bunch of prospects on Hardy? (Particularly when you consider that Scutaro and Tejada both have positive past experiences in Oakland.)
2. The reason the Brewers still have Hardy right now is not that they’re asking too much; it’s that the events which led to his current situation did not play out until mid-August, well after the non-waiver trade deadline. There’s no way on earth he would not get claimed on waivers, so he’s untradeable until after the World Series.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
As far as point number one...
I would make the argument that Hardy is a much better defender than both Miggy and Scutaro and his main use for the A’s in next season or two would be his defense, especially if the team rolls with “fall down range” 3rd baseman Brett Wallace for a prolonged length of time. That he could possibly regain some of his past performance with the bat would mainly a bonus for the A’s team and even if he just got a little better with the bat would probably be an imprvoement over a full season over Cliff Pennington.
For other teams though, that have perfectly adequate or even good defensive third baseman, Hardy’s defensivce abilities aren’t that important and they might be looking more for a sure-fire offensive upgrade to shortstop: enter Scuatroa and Tejada.
As for your second comment…good point about the waiver deadline and whatnot. The same could be said about possible players the Brewers have asked for in trades…they likely wouldn’t pass through waivers either.
I'm never gonna do it without the fez on!
I have yet to see evidence that one player can have an impact on another player's fielding numbers,
and I’m particularly suspicious of those claims with respect to infielders. I can kind of see how outfielders can impact each other around the fringes because those plays can take longer to develop, but almost the only time you ever see two infielders with a chance to field the same ball is on a popup. There are wide holes that ground balls can get through between every pair of infielders and even if you stuck Elvis Andrus and Adrian Beltre side-by-side, you’d still rarely have balls that both of them could conceivably get to.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
I agree with this very very much.
At least my intuition says it’s true, and it’s crazy how many people assume good defenders make bad defenders less bad without evidence other than anecdote.
Miggy's pretty useless offensively as a 3B.
All the power from his once mighty bat is gone.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
I'm pretty sure Donnie Murphy and D'Angelo Jimenez are available, too.
I can only think of one Oakland SS in the past ten years under another team’s control. I believe Esteban German is arbitration eligible for Texas, right?
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
JJ Fumurick (sp)?
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 10, 2009 8:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Furmaniac!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Furmaniak!
I had to look him up. He’s on the Phillies AAA team. Looks like a one-year minor-league contract, so I guess he’s available.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
Where is this FA SP going to fit in?
SP: Cahill-Anderon-Braden-Gonzalez-Mazzaro-Outman = These are players who do not need some washup blocking them.
Not to mention theres a couple of guys (Yinoa/DLS) who could very well storm through the minors and be ready to go a LOT sooner than people think.
Signing a FA SP especially in the offseason, is a huge dummy move considering how many guys sat and waited this year (Pedro+Byrd) who can easily jump right in. There will probably be more. Lets wait for the injuries to happen to one of the 6 and THEN make a move. There’s simply no need to add a veteran starter.
If you believe that all six of
Cahill, Anderson, Braden, Gonzalez, Mazzaro and Outman will be healthy and not suck, you’re far more optimistic than I am.
If signing a FA SP is the sort of jinx that causes five of those six to be rotation-worthy, then I’d say that alone is sufficient reason for signing the FA SP.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
by iglew on Sep 10, 2009 5:34 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Do not count/bet on/hope for either Ynoa or DLS to pitch in Oakland next year.
Simply not happening.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Or Outman for a while, if at all.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I think Ynoa probably needs to focus on just pitching in the United States first.
Maybe not Oakland just yet.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Trevor Cahill most definitely does need some washup blocking him
and you could probably argue the same thing for Mazzaro.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
Yeah, I don't think the A's are in nearly as good shape as it may appear
Cahill is very raw, Mazzaro just isn’t that good, Gio is so unpredictable, Outman and DLS complete wild cards at this point.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Yeah, Gio's making progress, even if it isn't necessarily reflected in his ERA yet
His FIP is way better than Cahill and Mazzaro’s.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
Braden and Outman
were the only 2 who were hurt, and gio can stink sometimes, but i think his best games have shown us he’s worth keeping around, even if he is just Oliver Perez in disguise.
Cahill-Anderson-Braden-Gonzalez-Mazzaro is what Im assuming will be our opening day rotation. I expect the first 3 to give us 28+ starts and be pretty good. Gonzalez will give us 20+ starts depending if he sucks or not, same with Mazzaro. Depending on how much they suck, it should be apparent by June or so, at that point we can grab a holdout. My main point is getting involved in the SP FA market is insane when we have our guys ready now.
I think it's better than 50-50 that at least one of
Cahill, Gio, or Mazzaro will be awful next year.
Sure, they all have promise, but it’s still optimistic to expect all of them to pan out.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
Add Anderson to the list and make it "awful or injured"
Mazzaro has already gotten shut down, Anderson had three different owies, and Gio missed the start of the season. And Cahill’s the one with a delivery that worries me the most.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Anderson also has a history of owies in the minors.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 10, 2009 8:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, I think the A's need to (and will)
plan for the very real possibility that Cahill/Anderson will produce an injury, while Mazzaro/Gio will produce a dud. It happens.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Another reason to sign a free agent pitcher or hold on to our current FA pitcher (Duke)...
is that the pitching surplus might allow the team to make a move for a legitimate run producer that can help the team both now and in the near future.
The A’s won’t entertain any offers any time soon for Cahill/Anderson/Mazzaro under any circumstances, and likely wouldn’t listen to 99% of offers for Braden or Gio either in the current situation.
But say the team signed Hudson for 2-years over the winter and then all of sudden has 6-7 MLB-ready starting pitchers going into the season. At that point, it’s likely that the A’s might be in a position to part with Braden or Gio and/or Mortensen if the right deal came along to acquire an impact bat under team control for awhile at a position of need.
I'm never gonna do it without the fez on!
Maz
If some team knocks on our door and inquire about Mazzaro, I think we should at least listen to what they are offering. I’m just not sold on him; Maz has very average stuff from what I’ve seen, and he’s older than the rest of our pitching prospects.
by batterbatter on Sep 10, 2009 9:41 PM PDT up reply actions
I agree with this.
I actually foresee the A’s using Mazzaro at some point in the near future as the centerpiece of a major trade to acquire a major piece en-route to a title run.
I think that Mazzaro is going to be an above-average major league starter, and with his latest shoulder issues notwithstanding, he’s going to throw a lot of innings for a few years. I think his combo of groundballish tendencies, youth, contract situation and pretty good stuff will attract a lot of interest.
However, I think the A’s will let Mazzaro mature and prove himself at the major league level for a year or two before pulling the trigger on him and even then, only if someone like Tyson Ross or Arnold Leon or James Simmons or even Ynoa or FDLS come up and show that they can compete at the major league level consistently.
I'm never gonna do it without the fez on!
Sort of like Harang, then?
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
Ya, kind of.
But I would hope that a) Mazzaro puts up a bit better numbers with the A’s than Harang did before getting traded and b) the A’s get a lot more than a half-season of Jose Guillen for Mazzaro when/if they do trade him.
I’m thinking that the A’s will take the next year or two to see which of the young pitchers will stick/stay healthy and which position players can man-up enough to actually build around.
Then, if the farm system has produced a reasonably competitive core of pitchers and position players, the team will use Mazzaro (complete speculation on my part, but I just get the feeling) to put together a deal for an impact bat at a position of need that could really complete this team for a few years. I have no idea who/what that bat may be, but I would guess that it would be a slugger in his late prime years signed for a couple of seasons.
I'm never gonna do it without the fez on!
Andruw Jones would be a good fit
He’s a power hitting righty, middle of the order type
already adjusted to the AL this year in Texas,
not that old (32)
cheap
can play any OF position or DH
Would be a very solid backup plan to a Rajai regression
I’d love Tejada too.
They're called RUNS for a reason.
Anybody can "adjust" to a new league when they are hitting at the launching pad - Arlington Ballpark.
I'm never gonna do it without the fez on!
next yearr
No A ndru Jones no Giambi,both over the hill plus they strike out to much.want guys who put the ball in play.we have a good core of postion players two good catchers kennedy plays with a lot of heart good in the clutch.elias so;id at second and pennington is a keeper With chavez coming back next year health permiting and we keep kennedy chavez could play first or crosby. i thing outfield is solid dont know much about there arms but davis can hit harriston can hit at the major league level and sweeney wont hurt you as far as pitiching goes anderson is a keeper cahil is solid wuertz is good bailey wont hurt us. tomko throws hard could be a 4or 5 pitcher hope to pick up a starter or two a long reliever. you dont have to have 25 babe ruths to win you just want guys who can put the ball in play timely hits good defense and solid pitching just look at the angels.there all solid players they put the ball in play dont strike out to much play good defense and they have good pitiching and most of all they dont beat themselves hope billy beane sees this comment and takes heart to it!
by sirrustynails on Sep 16, 2009 10:49 PM PDT up reply actions
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