So. Matt Hollliday is an NL-inflated chump.
by ChrisCEIT on Sep 1, 2009 10:21 PM PDT
132 comments
My first fanpost. It's already terrible.
I started this season hoping for .500 ball, and would that have been enough?
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what's done is done.
just be happy we have brett wallace.
by Kyle_B on Sep 1, 2009 10:45 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I'd rather have Wallace over Holliday right now,
especially when you consider that Brett gets to stay here for five or so years and Holliday would be gone after this season (a losing season at that).
So whateva.
"You're just jealous. You wish you had a rally animal..." -CardinalWraith
by Boonee on Sep 1, 2009 10:55 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
me too.
but i just want someone to quantify this season for me. Just a few numbers is all.
Nick Swisher is handsome.
by ChrisCEIT on Sep 1, 2009 10:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
if holliday performed in oakland like he did in stl....
would we really have been that much better? i really don’t think the 2 and 4-6 hitters would have improved that significantly. we just don’t have a playoff roster. a lineup of suzuki, ellis, kennedy, pennington, davis, hairston, sweeney, cust, and holliday plus a very inexperienced rotation isn’t going to give you much to hope for. even if holliday did have a great impact, the a’s still would have most likely missed the playoffs.
i don’t have any predictions of numbers that could have been, but i think we can all agree that a superstar matt holliday simply could not have pushed this team into contention. the only thing we could have hoped for is better prospects coming our way in a trade. with that said, i’m still very happy with brett wallace.
by Kyle_B on Sep 2, 2009 1:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're crazy
Looking for a silver lining in a Holliday for Wallace deal is simple optimistic zeal. Holliday is what Wallace can only hope to be. The one exception is the dead-man-walking attitude Holliday seemed to bring to the park. I can do without that. Wallace needs to prove he can play 3B because Carter clearly looks like the 1Bman of the near future. Give Holliday his due. He is out of coors field; he is out of the Colossalsium (miss-spelled on purpose) and he is raking. He plays in front of a full stadium of passionate fans for a team ownership that is committed to winning.
Baja been here
by bajablue on Sep 4, 2009 10:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, Holliday is obviously the better player.
But when considering conracts, their value isn’t even close. Wallace and his 6 cost controlled years >>>>>> half a season of Matt Holliday.
Founding member of the Eric Patterson fan club.
by travdog6 on Sep 5, 2009 1:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's a little unfair but...
I don’t think I can ever like Matt H. The way things went left a bad taste in my mouth.
by IM4Oakgal on Sep 1, 2009 10:56 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
No-no.
Don’t get me wrong – it’s not that I hate or even dislike Matt Holliday.
I just want to know if the A’s got that production out of that slot, they’d be flirting with .500.
That’s all.
Nick Swisher is handsome.
by ChrisCEIT on Sep 1, 2009 10:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
TWSS
A B -3X = Swedish girls like chocolate @('.')@
by monkeyball on Sep 2, 2009 9:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Same here.
In 2008 I was watching a team that was rebuilding. In 2009 I feel like I'm watching a team that just sucks.
by UncleLeo on Sep 2, 2009 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am with you
I did not like giving away CarGon but was excited we got a “all star” quality position player in Holliday, (I had seen him play once in COL and twice at AT&T and he was awesome). I think he saw how bad this team was early, (G & Nomah, please) and just gave up. He was never the hitter he was in COL but I did not expect him to be, what I did not expect is the complete lack of “life” he showed here. I lost a lot of respect for him after watching him look like a robot at the plate and in the field. I do not think if he hit .325/.440/.585 we would have been that much better, (maybe +5 wins?). We still would not be a .500 club without some supporting players around him.
PREPAREDNESS_Because those goddamn zombies aren’t going to kill themselves
by adragon on Sep 2, 2009 5:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Matt Holliday's career OPS is .933
His combined OPS this year? .904.
Bleh, sometimes you have, well, ascension to the mean, instead of regression.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Sep 1, 2009 11:08 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Okay.
Perhaps the A’s could have gotten .933 instead of .831. Go.
Nick Swisher is handsome.
by ChrisCEIT on Sep 1, 2009 11:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
maybe...
they would have, if they had kept him around. He was pretty fucking hot in the weeks before his trade. I’m kind of guessing that you wouldn’t be happy if the A’s had held onto him though.
by AgitationStation on Sep 2, 2009 1:36 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Obligatory pedantry.
1. When a number regresses upward, it’s still regression.
2. If you do need an opposite to “regression”, the word is “progression”.
(I completely agree with your substantive point, by the way.)
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
by iglew on Sep 2, 2009 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Noted.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Sep 2, 2009 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Holliday still regressed to the mean
I don’t believe regression implies downwards/lower direction
by echerrst on Sep 2, 2009 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't forget,
Mark McGwire instructed Holliday to change his swing before this year. Matt did, and he put up mediocre (relatively speaking) numbers with his new swing. Once he changed back (after the all star break, IIRC), his numbers started reverting back to around where they were in Colorado. I think his swing change was the biggest factor in Matt Holliday’s numbers.
Founding member of the Eric Patterson fan club.
by travdog6 on Sep 1, 2009 11:12 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
this
Chris Carter entered a villiage where an ogre had devoured all the crops and livestock, and Chris Carter asked the people of the village, "Have you no beasts of labor with which to pay tribute me?" And the people answered, "No, the ogre has taken our livestock," and with one mighty swing of his bat Chris Carter felled the ogre, and Chris Carter did proclaim, "Let my people be free," and it was so. - Aufheben
by designatedforassignment on Sep 1, 2009 11:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He changed back april 30. Same day he hit his first HR
by chri5 on Sep 2, 2009 7:59 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Mac forgot to tell Holliday about the secret sauce
Makes all the difference. Did for Mac, at least.
Do you know the way to San Jose?
by eastcoasta'sfan on Sep 2, 2009 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i hate holliday.
good riddance.
"I hope he arouses the fire that's dormant in the innermost recesses of my soul." - Ichiro on Matsuzaka
by ConditionOakland on Sep 1, 2009 11:18 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
1.295 pythag wins more
1.6 WAR for the Cards over 149 AB translated to 400 ABs with the A’s minus the 3 WAR he was while he was here.
Chris Carter entered a villiage where an ogre had devoured all the crops and livestock, and Chris Carter asked the people of the village, "Have you no beasts of labor with which to pay tribute me?" And the people answered, "No, the ogre has taken our livestock," and with one mighty swing of his bat Chris Carter felled the ogre, and Chris Carter did proclaim, "Let my people be free," and it was so. - Aufheben
by designatedforassignment on Sep 1, 2009 11:24 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
translated to a full season...
would that be two more wins? Not enough to worry about in other words. 58-83, or 60-81. Yawn.
Nick Swisher is handsome.
by ChrisCEIT on Sep 2, 2009 7:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly just under two wins.
Holliday played much better than people think he did and the rest of the team sucked a lot more than he could fix by himself.
Chris Carter entered a villiage where an ogre had devoured all the crops and livestock, and Chris Carter asked the people of the village, "Have you no beasts of labor with which to pay tribute me?" And the people answered, "No, the ogre has taken our livestock," and with one mighty swing of his bat Chris Carter felled the ogre, and Chris Carter did proclaim, "Let my people be free," and it was so. - Aufheben
by designatedforassignment on Sep 2, 2009 7:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
agreed
I'm here to talk about the past.
by 67MARQUEZ on Sep 2, 2009 7:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
hes a smart dude though hes probably made $50m from hitting like this in STL
Chris Carter entered a villiage where an ogre had devoured all the crops and livestock, and Chris Carter asked the people of the village, "Have you no beasts of labor with which to pay tribute me?" And the people answered, "No, the ogre has taken our livestock," and with one mighty swing of his bat Chris Carter felled the ogre, and Chris Carter did proclaim, "Let my people be free," and it was so. - Aufheben
by designatedforassignment on Sep 2, 2009 8:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where have I heard this before?
Oh yeah, i fucking scream it at people every time I get the chance.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
by mikev on Sep 2, 2009 8:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then when your done beating my ass for talking to Zigfan maybe we should be friends :-)
Chris Carter entered a villiage where an ogre had devoured all the crops and livestock, and Chris Carter asked the people of the village, "Have you no beasts of labor with which to pay tribute me?" And the people answered, "No, the ogre has taken our livestock," and with one mighty swing of his bat Chris Carter felled the ogre, and Chris Carter did proclaim, "Let my people be free," and it was so. - Aufheben
by designatedforassignment on Sep 2, 2009 8:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll be friends with what's left of you.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
by mikev on Sep 2, 2009 8:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, he didn't smile very much, so he must have sucked, right?
This is how I understand the process
by bobnothing on Sep 2, 2009 8:37 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
He didn't hit .330 with 20 dingers in Oakland,
so he sucked to us…
"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Sep 2, 2009 9:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, I believe you've got it exactly right.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
by iglew on Sep 2, 2009 10:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't care about Matt Holliday
But I like your for your picture.
"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin
by Helloooo 1st on Sep 1, 2009 11:28 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
It is kinda impressive isn't it?
That’s an amazing amount of wine chugged there.
Rickey has spoken. Keep the Athletics in Bump City.
by LeSaboteur on Sep 1, 2009 11:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's funny 'cause it's a jug.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
by iglew on Sep 2, 2009 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Never chug the sangria jug
The headache is more painful than watching a Bobby Crosby at bat.
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball." - Connie Mack
by GoA's on Sep 2, 2009 5:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also, if you take away Matt's March/April,
(in which he OPS’d .648) his numbers start to look a lot better. Not quite what we’re seeing now, but stil pretty good.
Founding member of the Eric Patterson fan club.
by travdog6 on Sep 1, 2009 11:53 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I also didn't like...
…Holliday. And I really didn’t like ’im once I found out that Carlos Gonzalez was included in the deal; trading away a left-handed masher is ridonkulous. Especially once you look up his numbers in Colorado.
His OPS, however, seems inflated. Pujols being the reason for that, and with the weak (read: non-productive) A’s around him, there was little incentive to actually pitch to him. The Deadbirds are a veritable buzz saw to-to-bottom.
Rickey has spoken. Keep the Athletics in Bump City.
by LeSaboteur on Sep 1, 2009 11:56 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
this Brett Wallace
kid better be a stud because it looks like we gave one up in CarGon.
by sf drift king on Sep 2, 2009 12:11 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Billy B....
…really screwed the pooch with CarGon. He’s not a piece I would’ve included in that deal; a lot folk here might say otherwise, but CarGon would’ve been a rock to build a lethal outfield on. Granted, Rajai has his deal with the devil still, but I wonder how he might look in RF or LF. CarCon, Rajai, and, say, a Sweeney/Hairston platoon: that’s an OF.
Wallace really better be a stud, and one who can start at both corners.
Rickey has spoken. Keep the Athletics in Bump City.
by LeSaboteur on Sep 2, 2009 12:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So...
Holliday’s numbers in Colorado are inflated but CarGon’s numbers aren’t?
by Colorado Fan on Sep 2, 2009 6:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe, but I've been watching
some Rockies games (I’m in CO too), and a bunch of the home runs CarGon has hit have been absolute bombs. I’m talking laser shots to the upper deck. His power is definitely coming around and he looks impressive.
by humdinger on Sep 2, 2009 6:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The one he hit last night was ridiculous
I was kind of depressed after seeing it on Baseball Tonight
by Glorious Mundy on Sep 2, 2009 7:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Have you seen his home/road splits so far?
The Oakland A's: Pissing off fathers of disappointing baseball players who still managed to be better than their dads (charter club members: Tom Grieve & Ed Crosby)
Last of the Ninth - Photography
by Flashfire on Sep 2, 2009 9:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
He has a higher BA and more HR’s on the road. Cargo is going to be a good one regardless of where he plays.
by son of wes on Sep 2, 2009 9:25 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Just because the home/road splits are very close does not mean that Coors doesn't help him when he plays at home
It also deprecates his value just because more runs are scored there, so each run he produces is worth less.
by Graham on Sep 2, 2009 9:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
True, but similar splits do suggest he's not just benefiting from the Coors Field Effect...
…and rather his numbers are more because of what he’s doing and less about where he’s playing. It’s not like he’s great at home and terrible on the road.
Still, SSS anyway.
The Oakland A's: Pissing off fathers of disappointing baseball players who still managed to be better than their dads (charter club members: Tom Grieve & Ed Crosby)
Last of the Ninth - Photography
by Flashfire on Sep 2, 2009 9:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Since I was already here does that mean I have to start discussing players' asses?
Ronny Cedeno’s is fairly delectable according to my sources
by Graham on Sep 2, 2009 2:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is ass delectability correlated with reverse platoon split?
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
by iglew on Sep 2, 2009 4:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
FF has noted CarCon's...
…splits for me already, which lead me to believe that it’s the player, and not the venue.
In my opinion, it’s his position behind Pujols that have inflated his second half stats. If you’re a manger, who would you rather pitch to? I choose Holliday; he’s a threat, but not like Pujols. It should be noted that he was shut down by Dodger pitching during that last series. The heart of the Deadbirds went (if I remember correctly), three for twenty.
If LA doesn’t look quite so anemic in the box, they easily win that series.
Rickey has spoken. Keep the Athletics in Bump City.
by LeSaboteur on Sep 2, 2009 6:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You should note,
that Holliday started putting up awesome stats when he changed his swing, not when he moved to the NL. Also, I enjoyed your picture.
Founding member of the Eric Patterson fan club.
by travdog6 on Sep 2, 2009 6:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I noted the change.
It’s probably what put Holliday up over the top as far as St. Louis is concerned. If his performance had continued to be bunk, he’d still be here and Wallace would still be there.
It’s not the change in leagues so much, it’s the change in personnel around him that makes Holliday look more impressive.
Rickey has spoken. Keep the Athletics in Bump City.
by LeSaboteur on Sep 2, 2009 7:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Some may hate this point of view and find it stupid...
… but I’d rather have a good player at a position of organizational weakness (3rd) than an excellent player at a position of strength (OF). For this reason, I don’t have a burning need to see Wallace keep pace with, or outperform, Gonzalez.
Now a burning desire, that’s another thing.
by Joey C. on Sep 2, 2009 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, corner outfield is an organizational strength (kinda),
but CF could be another 3b-esque gaping hole, provided Rajai can’t keep up his torrid pace.
Founding member of the Eric Patterson fan club.
by travdog6 on Sep 2, 2009 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know the topic is not about liking or hating.....
BUT I watched Holliday here in CO for 2 years, and I was at the game when he slid into home to make the playoffs….saw him in interviews, at games, etc etc…..
He was a shell of himself in Oakland, and I hated his blank “ho hum” stare day in and day out….good riddance….I will also no longer be able to like him….
Oh, and even happy and doing well, would have not changed this year at all…….come on Wallace
by Colorado Booze Hounds on Sep 2, 2009 8:09 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Does Brett Wallace smile a lot?
What if he doesn’t? Will everyone start hating him, too?
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
by iglew on Sep 2, 2009 10:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I get that....
but when you spend time watching how someone acts, and then its different overnight, and 3 months later its back to “Mr. happy contributer” …..yeah!
by Colorado Booze Hounds on Sep 2, 2009 10:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's looked mostly expressionless when I've seen him play
Time to freak out!
The Oakland A's: Pissing off fathers of disappointing baseball players who still managed to be better than their dads (charter club members: Tom Grieve & Ed Crosby)
Last of the Ninth - Photography
by Flashfire on Sep 2, 2009 10:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If he had put up a .480 wOBA in Oakland (his STL line)
He’d have been worth 55.2 bRAA. He was worth 13.3.
by Graham on Sep 2, 2009 8:15 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Are you park adjusting the bRAA?
Chris Carter entered a villiage where an ogre had devoured all the crops and livestock, and Chris Carter asked the people of the village, "Have you no beasts of labor with which to pay tribute me?" And the people answered, "No, the ogre has taken our livestock," and with one mighty swing of his bat Chris Carter felled the ogre, and Chris Carter did proclaim, "Let my people be free," and it was so. - Aufheben
by designatedforassignment on Sep 2, 2009 8:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
GOD DAMN ACRONYMS
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
by mikev on Sep 2, 2009 8:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not an acronym
DFA is asking Graham about selecting his brassiere based on the ballpark he’s visiting.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Sep 2, 2009 8:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
now, the silicone falsies have the look,
but not the feel. So, if no one’s going to touch you, you gotta go silicone.
However, if you’re planning on being groped, you gotta go with the foam rubber for squeezable softness. They even make one now with a fake nipple at the end.
"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Sep 2, 2009 9:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Heh
The Oakland A's: Pissing off fathers of disappointing baseball players who still managed to be better than their dads (charter club members: Tom Grieve & Ed Crosby)
Last of the Ninth - Photography
by Flashfire on Sep 2, 2009 9:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's very important to have a high-value bRAA.
Without one, you’re liable to have a lot of wOBA in your swing.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
by iglew on Sep 2, 2009 10:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And things could start to sag
The Oakland A's: Pissing off fathers of disappointing baseball players who still managed to be better than their dads (charter club members: Tom Grieve & Ed Crosby)
Last of the Ninth - Photography
by Flashfire on Sep 2, 2009 10:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, his Oakland line is adjusted for Oakland while his St. Louis wOBA is obviously adjusted for St. Louis
I’m not really in a position to do a component park factoring job on his STL numbers though, so I just went with it. Either way it’s in the area of 3.5-4 wins over his time in Oakland.
by Graham on Sep 2, 2009 8:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
wouldn't scaling BRAA which is park adjusted on Fangraphs on a per PA basis do that?
Chris Carter entered a villiage where an ogre had devoured all the crops and livestock, and Chris Carter asked the people of the village, "Have you no beasts of labor with which to pay tribute me?" And the people answered, "No, the ogre has taken our livestock," and with one mighty swing of his bat Chris Carter felled the ogre, and Chris Carter did proclaim, "Let my people be free," and it was so. - Aufheben
by designatedforassignment on Sep 2, 2009 5:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Adjusting the bRAA?
TWSS?
The Oakland A's: Pissing off fathers of disappointing baseball players who still managed to be better than their dads (charter club members: Tom Grieve & Ed Crosby)
Last of the Ninth - Photography
by Flashfire on Sep 2, 2009 9:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is this a game thread?
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
by mikev on Sep 2, 2009 9:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Depends on the sort of game we're talking about
The Oakland A's: Pissing off fathers of disappointing baseball players who still managed to be better than their dads (charter club members: Tom Grieve & Ed Crosby)
Last of the Ninth - Photography
by Flashfire on Sep 2, 2009 9:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Holliday was always considered a 2nd half beast
and we chose to not keep him around for said 2nd half. who knows what numbers he’d have put up if he’d stuck around, and honestly who cares? We lost our ace, our closer and our 3B for the season and our 2B for 3 months. No team in baseball could withstand those losses. If Beane had known that was going to happen at the time of the trade, would he have even made it? Probably not.
by PL78 on Sep 2, 2009 9:24 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
+1
We lost our ace, our closer and our 3B for the season and our 2B for 3 months. No team in baseball could withstand those losses. If Beane had known that was going to happen at the time of the trade, would he have even made it? Probably not.
i am kind of annoyed seeing CarGon progress in colorado and knowing that essentially what we got was a player who is still a prospect, which makes him basically a crapshoot (wallace), but sometimes the plan falls apart. the 3rd year in a row of ridiculous injuries and a handful of underperformers killed our chances.
so in hindsight, i think the trade sucks. however, thinking about where we were in the off-season, it was a good gamble. can’t win ’em all…
by jlanning17 on Sep 2, 2009 11:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But given that Gonzalez
was still essentially a prospect when we traded him, (albeit one a couple years farther along than Wallace,) I’m not really seeing this as a big deal. We traded a high-ceiling prospect and two lesser-valued players for a high-ceiling prospect and two lesser-valued players, and paid a half-season of Holliday’s salary on the off-chance that we were a competitive team.
Really, when you factor in that a big chunk of Gonzalez’s progression is coming/was going to come during years in which the A’s weren’t competitive, you can spin it as a win.
by Nate on Sep 2, 2009 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cargo’s BB rate is still pretty terrible. Honestly I dont think he will have a long career.
by PL78 on Sep 2, 2009 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But he plays elite D in CF.
He doesn’t need to hit all that well to be average, and if he hits like he’s capable of, he’s a star.
by Elston Gunn on Sep 2, 2009 3:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You don't need to have a great BB rate to be a good player
Maybe you won’t be an elite or All-Star player, but you can be a solid player without walking a bunch.
The Oakland A's: Pissing off fathers of disappointing baseball players who still managed to be better than their dads (charter club members: Tom Grieve & Ed Crosby)
Last of the Ninth - Photography
by Flashfire on Sep 2, 2009 9:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
???
It’s above league-average this season.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Sep 2, 2009 9:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You forgot about the AN ranking system:
Best in MLB: Good
2nd Best in MLB: Above-average
3rd: Fringe-average
4th: Terrible
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Sep 3, 2009 9:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can spin it as a win, but it wasn't one.
CarGo is better than Wallace right now, has more upside, plays a premium defensive position, and a position that we are in far more desperate need of (sorry, people, Wallace is not a 3B, and even if he were, Cardenas is a better 3B prospect than Corey Brown is a CF prospect).
Street was more valuable than Petersen is now. Mortensen’s probably a little better than Smith, but not by much. As jlanning says, it was a reasonable gamble, but it failed pretty badly—not a disaster, but a mistake in retrospect for sure.
by Elston Gunn on Sep 2, 2009 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I notice you're comparing
Gonzalez now to Wallace now, but comparing Street then to Mortensen now. Why the discrepancy?
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
by iglew on Sep 2, 2009 4:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just because i assume we would have traded street,
and held onto to Gonzalez, so Street’s value to us was in what else we could have gotten in a trade either over the offseason or at the deadline while CarGo’s was in how good he’d become. But if you want to just compare everyone now, Street has gotten more valuable, not less.
by Elston Gunn on Sep 2, 2009 7:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Rox won this deal in 2009, no one is arguing that.
But if Wallace plays league average D at 3B while putting up Ryan Braun numbers, A’s win easily. We dragged Raj from the fire and now he’s playing like Rickey Henderson. CF’s arent a rare commodity, 3B are.
by PL78 on Sep 2, 2009 4:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And if Aaron Cunningham starts playing Willy Mays D at CF
while putting up Albert Pujols numbers, then who really cares anyway?
The chances of Wallace playing league average D at 3B are EXTREMELY low, and Ryan Braun is his ceiling, not a likely comp—Braun has crazy power, and I saw Callis predicting 18-20 HR for Wallace today—unless you mean Ryan Braun defensive numbers at 3B, which he might be able to pull off! :-)
It does seem to be true that replacement level is higher CF than other positions (or at least it was this offseason, per Fangraphs’ series on the subject), but I don’t think it’s any easier, or at least not much, find an above-average one, and Rajai having a fluke year doesn’t change that one way or the other. And, again, even if that were true, Wallace is not going to play 3B for more than a couple years tops, and probably not even that much.
by Elston Gunn on Sep 2, 2009 8:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
btw, I'm not saying Wallace is bad.
I’m very glad we have him. I’d just rather have CarGo.
by Elston Gunn on Sep 2, 2009 8:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Has there been a recent evaluation of Wallace's skills at 3rd?
I thought questions about his defense were related to his body type more than anything.
by JetSam on Sep 2, 2009 8:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's ALL that has been said
He’s too big to play, he’s got a huge ass, his lower body is too big, etc etc.
I guess if you say it enough, people just take it as fact.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
by mikev on Sep 2, 2009 9:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
no, it's not.
scouting report after scouting report of people watching Wallace play 3B say he has poor range, poor throwing and good hands AND that he will likely never be a decent defensive 3B. now when you combine that with very legitimate questions about his body type, it’s possible he could be -10ish at 3B, which would be pretty valuable with his bat, but league average defense is a pipe dream (which of course doesn’t mean it’s impossible, but it’s probalby less than 3% liklihood).
by Elston Gunn on Sep 3, 2009 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Funny, I've never seen those scouting reports.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
by mikev on Sep 3, 2009 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just google "brett wallace scouting report"
The consensus is that he’s quicker than he looks, but the most optimistic reports say that he might end up being average at 3B.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Sep 3, 2009 5:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I tried that and didn't get much of substance
Someone probably already posted this, but here is a video of him taking grounders.
Looks ilke he’s got soft hands there.
by JetSam on Sep 3, 2009 8:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
reports
here is one that was linked the other day, that spins things positively, but it’s hard to see how it follows from the other things he says, other than he just likes Wallace. conclusion: could not kill you at 3B for a little while, but won’t stick longterm. here’s another that’s pretty positive. moneyquote: “Basically I don’t see him killing his team with his defense, but I don’t see him helping at all either.”
here’s another that suggests he doesn’t have the range to play an average third.
I think he could play 3B, if we needed him too, and not be a sinkhole. But I can’t see us needing him to for more than a year, and probably less, unless Cardenas flames out (which of course is possible). (I’m one of the people that likes Cardenas more than Wallace anyway, and sees no reason to keep Adrian at 2B.) Mikev is probably right that people (including me) exaggerate how bad he is at 3rd, but he’s not good, and we have a better option.
The bigger point is that CarGo is an elite defensive CF today, and a better hitter than Wallace today, and only a little older. Now, I think Wallace will be a better hitter long term, but he has a much lower floor because of his lack of defensive value, and for the same reason has probably a lower ceiling.
by Elston Gunn on Sep 3, 2009 10:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you put together all the positive comments
in those reports, you’d have a great defensive 3B. All three include sort of “i’m not sure” comments about his range and some criticism of his throwing mechanics. I just don’t think that translates in to a grim chance to play the position.
by JetSam on Sep 4, 2009 8:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Try reading BA or BP then
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Sep 4, 2009 7:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I read the publicly available stuff
BP is awful a lot of the time.
by JetSam on Sep 4, 2009 8:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Except that Raj has about 1/8th the power of Rickey
m*****f***ing c***s***ing peanut butter and jelly!! f*** f*** f***!!!
by JediLeroy on Sep 2, 2009 9:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But he plays elite d in CF.
He really doesn’t need to hit that well to be average, and if he hits even close to what he’s capable of, he’s a star.
by Elston Gunn on Sep 2, 2009 3:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ultimately, the team decided that Cargon would never hit very well in the AL
given his atrocious plate discipline, I think that’s a reasonable assumption.
Carlos Gonzalez was born to play in the NL. Brett Wallace was born to play in the AL. I think it worked out fine for everyone.
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Sep 2, 2009 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why do you think that the NL lets you get away with bad plate discipline?
Chris Carter entered a villiage where an ogre had devoured all the crops and livestock, and Chris Carter asked the people of the village, "Have you no beasts of labor with which to pay tribute me?" And the people answered, "No, the ogre has taken our livestock," and with one mighty swing of his bat Chris Carter felled the ogre, and Chris Carter did proclaim, "Let my people be free," and it was so. - Aufheben
by designatedforassignment on Sep 2, 2009 5:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
By its inherent design, the league implicitly promotes a more aggressive approach at the plate
For one, the lineups are less deep, which is reflected in the fact that it’s the inferior league talent-wise.
Secondly, there’s the near automatic out in the 9-hole of the NL lineup, which, in the eyes of some, validates almost unadulterated free-swinging in the holes immediately above it.
The shallower your lineup, the worse the hitter behind you is, the more likely you’ll take an aggressive approach at the plate.
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Sep 2, 2009 8:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Plus the quality of pitching depth in the NL is worse.
If you look at the 4th and 5th starters in the AL vs. in the NL, it’s almost comical. A guy can put up a pretty good stat line even if he only did damage against the dregs of his league.
The problem for AL hitters is, the AL doesn’t have too many terrible pitchers. They get kicked out, and go pitch in the NL instead. Sometimes with great success.
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Sep 2, 2009 8:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess that is logical enough
but I really would be interested in some hard data proof.
Chris Carter entered a villiage where an ogre had devoured all the crops and livestock, and Chris Carter asked the people of the village, "Have you no beasts of labor with which to pay tribute me?" And the people answered, "No, the ogre has taken our livestock," and with one mighty swing of his bat Chris Carter felled the ogre, and Chris Carter did proclaim, "Let my people be free," and it was so. - Aufheben
by designatedforassignment on Sep 2, 2009 9:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Um, go look at the shitloads of players who can't hack it in the AL and dominate the NL.
Both hitters and pitchers.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
by mikev on Sep 2, 2009 9:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Im asking about a particular subset thank you very much
I would want to know if players specifically with weak plate discipline do are better able to hack it in the NL than just the NL sucks thanks
Chris Carter entered a villiage where an ogre had devoured all the crops and livestock, and Chris Carter asked the people of the village, "Have you no beasts of labor with which to pay tribute me?" And the people answered, "No, the ogre has taken our livestock," and with one mighty swing of his bat Chris Carter felled the ogre, and Chris Carter did proclaim, "Let my people be free," and it was so. - Aufheben
by designatedforassignment on Sep 2, 2009 10:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Carlos Gonzalez.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
by mikev on Sep 3, 2009 9:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
SSS
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Sep 3, 2009 9:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He asked for an example, I gave him one.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
by mikev on Sep 3, 2009 11:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your first point includes a contradiction. Both leagues use the same roster rules. If the AL is deeper lineups, its also shallower pitching staffs. That doesn’t necessarily equate to inferior total talent.
There are a fair number of pitchers who scratch out near .200 batting averages. I’m not sure that’s a radical difference to the AL’s 9 hole hitter. You give the impression that the BA of pitchers in the NL averages out to .050 or something like that and the AL has a league .260 or so average there.
I’d like to hear who you think the some are who feel validated in almost unaldeterated free-swinging.
by JetSam on Sep 3, 2009 7:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"If the AL is deeper lineups, its also shallower pitching staffs"
No, it isn’t. The AL has both deeper, better lineups, and better, deeper pitching staffs. That’s why it’s the overwhelmingly dominant league and has been for five seasons. And that dominance is probably largely a product of the fact that the average AL payroll is more than $10M higher than the average NL payroll.
If you’re talking about sheer volume or number of bodies on the pitching staff, that isn’t true, either – both AL and NL teams tend to carry 12 pitchers, despite the DH.
There is a radical difference between the AL’s 9 hole hitter and the pitcher hitting in the NL. I’d prefer not to discuss their differences with the use of batting average, since it’s not a good metric for determining the quality of a hitter.
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Sep 4, 2009 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
BA is the main component of OBP and OPS. Whatever.
Maybe your broad proclamations of superiority should be evaluated sans the Harlem Globetrotters Yankees.
by JetSam on Sep 6, 2009 7:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's walking in 10% of his PAs this year,
between AAA and the bigs. I wouldn’t go so far as to call that atrocious.
by Elston Gunn on Sep 2, 2009 8:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
FWIW, that's a little better than Matt Holliday
for his career…
by Elston Gunn on Sep 2, 2009 8:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where's the "like" button?
"Bobby Crosby at third is a bit of an adventure. And not like, here’s some hidden treasure, what fun. More like, gah! poison ants!" --alea iacta est
by baseballgirl on Sep 2, 2009 4:57 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Facebook ;-)
The Oakland A's: Pissing off fathers of disappointing baseball players who still managed to be better than their dads (charter club members: Tom Grieve & Ed Crosby)
Last of the Ninth - Photography
by Flashfire on Sep 2, 2009 9:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This quote from the fanpost:
I’m curious how many more wins the A’s could have expected with a 1.101 OPS from the 3 spot than .831.
This topic is worthy of a fanpost by itself:
What “true talent” full-season OPS would Albert Pujols, generally considered the game’s best hitter, put up if he played in the American League and played half of his games for the A’s in the Oakland Coliseum?
If you say a number above .950, well…to put it politely, I am not entirely enamored with you and find your opinions objectionable.
Blasphemy, right? My hunch is that many ANers would find a .900 OPS season out of Oakland Pujols disappointing.
Now, that’s not to say that Pujols couldn’t have a 1.000 OPS season in Oakland. My opinion is that he would be just as likely to have one of those as he would be to have a .900 OPS season, though – hence my belief that his “true talent” Oakland A’s OPS would be .950, tops.
I think some people still underestimate how difficult it is to hit in the AL, and how hard it is to hit in the Coliseum, especially when the weather is cold, especially when the ball doesn’t carry well due to the cold air density in April/May.
The A’s hitters are never quite as bad as they look, and they’re pitchers are never quite as good as they look.
Right now, create a mental cap on what you think the greatest offensive player in the game should be able to achieve in a full season in Oakland.
(And in the post-steroid era, the offensive figures you’re visualizing should absolutely not be the offensive production standard that Giambi set in the early 2000s when he was roiding out of his mind).
Then, recalibrate your standards of what you expected for Holliday from there.
When you go through that mental exercise, you have to realize that Holliday did fairly well for the A’s. He wasn’t terrific, and he wasn’t lucky…but he certainly didn’t “suck”, or “steal money”, or anything of the sort. He performed slightly below his true talent level, and very roughly .100 OPS points below the true talent level of the greatest hitter on the planet.
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Sep 2, 2009 5:01 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
So, is it impossible for an A's player to OPS for 1.100
for an entire season? It’s happened in the recent past and the A’s kicked a little ass during those years too. I wish I understood the park effects better. It’s simply your opinion that there’s nobody out there who could provide the A’s 1.100 production but that’s not even the point. I just don’t get how the A’s have gone what six years now without one guy in their lineup who strikes the remotest fear in the opposition. We can’t expect anything better than 71 wins a year, tops, with them continuing to trot out these lineups.
They finally make an interesting move for one of the elite hitters in the majors, and he gives them .831. It’s not terrible, or even below average, but I doubt that’s what we or the A’s management expected in terms of production and I think it’s a fair question to ask how many more wins the A’s could have had with the kind of production Holliday is currently giving the Cardinals?
Nick Swisher is handsome.
by ChrisCEIT on Sep 3, 2009 7:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that it's an interesting question to ask
but I also think your response speaks to my point that fans probably have unrealistically high expectations of what an offensive player should be able to do in Oakland Coliseum.
The A’s did kick ass during those years, agreed. But Giambi and Tejada were very likely on steroids during that time when they were posting the numbers that you yearn for.
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Sep 3, 2009 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps my expectations are too high...
but I based it entirely on what he’s done and what others have done, not what I imagined out of thin air.
In fact, someone mentioned higher up on this post about the numbers I used for my comparison.
My immediate and knee-jerk reaction was to consider those lower numbers, and allow for that kind of weaseling anyhow.
And again, honestly. I’m disappointed in what he’s done for the A’s but wouldn’t have been nearly so if not for his number with St. Louis. He played fine for the A’s, but I just wish he was that scary bat that every other team seems to have that the A’s have been missing since Tejada left.
Nick Swisher is handsome.
by ChrisCEIT on Sep 3, 2009 1:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The highest OPS in the American League is 1.046.
The highest OPS in baseball is 1.116. I think it’s unrealistic the A’s will find a player with an OPS anywhere near that in the near future. Frank T OPSed .926 in 2006, so it’s not unrealistic to expect an OPS in the .950 range at some point, but there are very few hitters who are that good, and very few who we can actually afford. Chris Carter will hopefully be one of those guys.
Also, I wouldn’t expect Holliday to keep up this torrid pace. It’s a product of SSS, and he’ll likely regress towards something more in line with his career numbers, which is an OPS around .935.
Founding member of the Eric Patterson fan club.
by travdog6 on Sep 3, 2009 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Only .935?
Shit, I’m glad we got rid of that bum.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
by mikev on Sep 3, 2009 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, his lack of effort was equal to -.300 OPS points.
You should know this by now.
Founding member of the Eric Patterson fan club.
by travdog6 on Sep 3, 2009 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"they're pitchers are never quite as good as they look"
Arghh! I’m blinded! The beam in my eye keeps me from being able to see the rest of your post! Aren’t you supposed to be some sort of teacher of our impressionable young?? Damn unions, always shielding the inept.
(All in good fun, NSJ – I know you didn’t mean it. And while I don’t think I mess up their vs. they’re very often, I’m constantly having to backspace to correct my goofs on its vs. it’s. And frankly that’s one of the English language’s least ambiguous distinctions.)
by Faust on Sep 3, 2009 7:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I noticed it too late to fix it, sadly :(
But I grimaced upon re-reading. I feel your pain.
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Sep 4, 2009 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pretty shocked at the poll results thus far.
I think people love Wallace because he fills (well, we shall see) an organizational black hole at 3B. However, we had (and possibly have, depending on who Rajai really is) a black hole in CF as well.
Founding member of the Eric Patterson fan club.
by travdog6 on Sep 3, 2009 11:42 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
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