Concrete Trade Acquisitions: Thoughts on the Holliday Trades and Baseball Markets
Wait the A's traded who? Since I have been doing the Possible Trade Partners series I thought I would weigh in on the Matt Holliday trade in a little bit longer form than just a comment in one of the many excellent threads that are already open. The Matt Holliday trade says several things about market forces in baseball. After the Holliday trade this fall I remarked that it was possible that Beane was merely trading quickly depreciating assets for for a slower depreciating asset serving as a baseball version of George Soros engaging in international currency arbitrage. If that is the paradigm that Beane took it is also a good framework for evaluating the success of Beane's moves.
Two markets and four assets need to be considered when evaluating the first Holliday trade. The two markets are for closers and corner outfielders. While there were four players dealt at four positions (corner OF, closer, CF, starter), there are only two relevant markets to consider. Especially in Gonzalez's case, this is not due to a lack of value but rather the lack of a market for high grade position prospects other than in an acquisition of proven talent. With the exception of the Young/Garza deal, in recent years top prospects have not been swapped to merely redistribute positional talent between systems. Even swaps like the Golson/Mayberry are generally of failed or failing prospects that need protection from the Rule 5 draft. If you are not in contention you acquire your position prospects through the draft, international free agent signings, or by moving established assets.
The same could be said about young team controlled starting pitching. Thought there certainly are trades like the Jason Hammels deal earlier this year where back of the rotation candidates run out of options and are sent away at the end of spring training despite their team having control, and the Edwin Jackson trade when the prospect of arbitration make back of the rotation candidate in a full organization more pricey than they are worth. There are more examples of this kind of trade in the last several years (Bannister for Burgos comes to mind though that was arguably an acquisition of established talent for the Mets) but it is hardly a robust market.
The lack of both markets leaves little recourse for a team who does not have valuable established commodities. We all know there is a market for trading promising prospects for established talent, and back of the rotation candidates such as Smith or Mortenson make excellent final pieces. The other way that Beane could use these prospects is in a three way deal, but those deals are hard to consummate and pursuing three way deals is a great way to undermine the value of your prospects (asking anyone if they want them undermines future leverage). Therefore, if Beane felt that Smith and Gonzalez would be commodities that would under-perform their market value in 2009 and beyond, he had little option but to use them for acquiring proven talent. With reports of pressure from ownership to contend this year, it makes sense to trade for established assets.
So the first question when it comes to Gonzalez or Smith is would their commodities under-perform their market value in 2009. The second question is would that under-performance be less than the exchange cost of those prospects. Prospects to veterans to prospects is not an exactly fungible conversion and there are some costs to acquiring the player you want. I think it is very reasonable to have expected Gonzalez and Smith to under-perform.
Smith is the easy one. He had fragments removed from his elbow in October of 2008 and had had issues with shoulder soreness in 2007. A huge amount of the value of a 5th starter is to eat enough innings that prevents the bullpen from being taxed. Furthermore, the ability of your 5th starter to stay healthy is important to minimize the number of innings that replacement level pitching has to absorb. Smith walked over 4 batters per 9, had a .050 lower than league average BAPIP, and struck out 1.5 batters less per 9 than the league average. He was slated for a major regression to the mean as all the major projection systems (ZIPs, James, Chone) all projected him with a ERA of greater than 4.88 in 2009. Smith was going to under-perform and Beane needed to sell high on this asset.
Carlos Gonzalez is much more of a mixed bag. Everyone agrees that he has the tools to make the decision to give him up look stupid, and yet he hasn't maximized on them. Gonzalez' hadn't had a stand out offensive campaign since his 20 year old season in High A Lancaster. Even that may have been overvalued. Lancaster is an absolute launching pad in the California League and using the park neutralizer on Minorleaguesplits.com, Gonzalez's OPS drops 70 points. Furthermore, his MLE have staid constant at what his MLB production level, around a .650 OPS. Additionally he was not even an above average hitter in AAA in 2008 creating -2.8 batting runs bellow average at that level. Even his power went backwards after leaving High A, as each additional level accompanied falling ISOp Along with the lack of development between his 2007 and 2008, there were rumors that Gonzalez was not interested in accepting advice from the coaching staff, particularly about his patience at the plate. Gonzalez will never become an excellent player if he does not learn to walk more, and while his walk rate increased with the A's in AAA it plummeted to unacceptable levels while in the majors. While Gonzalez was clearly rushed, his previous walk numbers do not suggest that he will be able to sustain an acceptable walk rate unless his batting approach changes, something that seemed unlikely given his rumored hostility to the idea.
Many cite Gonzalez's excellent defense while he was with the Athletics in 2008 as a reason that the A's should have kept the budding center fielder. However, all fielding metrics require a large sample size when evaluating performance and are subject to much statistical noise. For example, Carlos Gonzalez in about 75 full games put up essentially the same UZR score that Ryan Sweeney has put up despite Sweeney looking terrible with his UZR in center field. That coupled with numerous scouting reports that questioned Gonzalez's range when he filled out. Therefore, while it was certainly clear that Gonzalez has the potential to become a plus defensive center fielder, the likelihood is not enough to outweigh questions about his bat.
Alternatively, the market for closers is well established. Huston Street was a known commodity having been shopped without much interest the previous deadline. The market for closers has been discussed for years as being inflated beyond its value, a fact that has been on display since the 1999 trade of Billy Taylor. Unfortunately for Street's value, he had a penchant for blowing saves, compiling only a 76% save rate in 2006-2008. While that number belies Street's value, as we saw at the trade deadline in 2008, it prevents him from being over valued in the same way that Billy Taylor, or even Francisco Rodriguez was.
Street has also had a history of injury. He missed more than a third of the 2007 season with an irritated ulner nerve a condition that can reoccur and often requires surgery. He had spent time on the DL for a groin injury in 2006 before pitching through a groin issue in 2008. Additionally, Street had missed more than 10 games both with hamstring and with chest problems. This is all to say that Street was not the picture of health, and the biggest indicator of health problems is previous health issues.
Street definitely had value. His FIP has never been less than .9 below league average. He has never Ked less than 8 batters per 9, nor, until 2008, had he walked 3 or more batters per 9. His ERA has never been hire than 2008's 3.73 and he was under team control for two more seasons at the time of the trade.
So while Street had trade value, he wasn't exactly a dramatically overvalued asset, and his stock looked likely to decline with increasing cost from arbitration, losing his closer role, and declining peripherals during the 2008 season. Furthermore, holding on to Street if was to decline further would be disastrous. Usually the going price for closers is about two B prospects (from looking at trades like the Sherril deal earlier this year), but the price even for good or better than average relievers is much much lower. If one believed that Street would continue to deteriorate, trading him while the market perceived him as a closer would be wise.
Usually during the offseason there are numerous teams searching for established closers and a dearth of reliable options on the market. That was not true in 2008. The offseason saw two premier closers, Francisco Rodriguez and Brian Fuentez, as well as two secondary closers, Kerry Wood and Trevor Hoffman, be signed in free agency as well as three closers, Street, Gregg, and Putz, get traded. Nearly a fourth of the teams in baseball got one of these available closers. Therefore, by completing the Holliday trade before the glut of closers hit the market was a very astute move by Beane, similar to allowing Haren to set the market for Santana rather than waiting too long to consumate a deal.
There were reasons to believe that Gonzalez, Street, and Smith would underperform but that didn't mean they didn't have value. At Beyond the Boxscore, Jabberwocky did an excellent job of breaking down the value of the first Holliday trade using VIctor Wang's research on prospect evaluations and Sky Kalkman's Trade Value Calculator. Jabberwocky used a low estimate for Gonzalez's ability to discount for bust potential, and I think accurately pegged Street and Smith's value. All told the package the A's sent to Colorado had an estimated expected value 43.2 million.
Striking first in unloading Street to set the market, Beane also had to wade into the market for outfielders prematurely, before its collapse. The problem with striking early to set the market is the risk that accompanies a large number of variables. The economic down turn's affects on baseball's landscape were not as well known when Holliday was acquired as they were when prime free agents were signing deals at values severely discounted from past seasons. Holliday's salary which was considered very reasonable at $13.5m before the economic collapse became much much more exorbitant, as even big spending teams like the Yankees were unable to add payroll at the deadline this year. The changing landscape hindered Holliday's value as a trade chip but also undermined his immediate value to the A's as players like Adam Dunn, Bobby Abreu, Pat Burrell, and Juan Rivera all signed significantly below value deals, where Holliday represented an opportunity cost to their acquisition.
Beane placed the assets that he felt were depreciating in a deal for Matt Holliday under the premise that if the team didn't compete, he could trade Holliday at the deadline, and if the A's did compete and Holliday was kept, he would reap two type A free agents. Unfortunately, as a free agent to be Holliday's level of depreciation was known to be steep. Usually a market for elite players at the trade deadline exists, so if Beane was to acquire talent it make sense for him to go big or go home if you will. However, there was certainly a risk that Holliday moving from a weaker league and a notorious hitters park would perform below expectations an significantly hurt his trade value. That being said, the flipside is also true that Holliday could hit very well in Oakland and cement his status as a truly elite player. Theoretically, it shouldn't be possible for Holliday to hit better in Oakland since his talent level is constant and his environment became much more detrimental to putting up nominally good numbers. Therefore, Beane placed a bet on a free agent to be who should be experiencing deflating market value based on the perception of nominal production, which I view as a significant mistake and almost the unraveling of Beane's plan.
With the perceived struggles Matt Holliday faced in Oakland, his market (though not necessarily his real value) plummeted. The economic down turn that was only beginning to become apparent when Beane traded for Holliday, helped further the market shift toward valuing prospects and players under control, further deteriorating Holliday's value, even though he was arguably the best bat available on the trade market. Therefore picking Holliday as the vehicle for holdings was not a wise choice. There was the potential to acquire talent that was under control for longer and would have elped the A's beyond what was always suspect contention this year. Also there were other players whose perception wouldn't suffer moving to the Coliseum as much, such as Javier Vasquez (the solid #2 that Nico wanted), Nick Swisher from the pale hose or Josh Willingham and Scott Olsen could have been had for much less, or Adrian Beltre would probably have been available for the right package, all of which before the season I would think of as safer bets to hold their value for an arbitrage type deal.
Therefore, evaluation of the Holliday deal was a mixed bag, which is essentially what I said at the time:
the middleCargon proved himself as an excellent defensive center fielder. However his lack of pate discipline was concerning. I never saw the high average that Taj was right to contend was essential to having an OBP that was high enough to support his poor plate discipline. My view of the trade is simply that Holliday’s value is going to depreciate slower that a flukey fringe starter like smith, an injury and blown save prone closer with a increasing salary, and a centerfielder with a high ceiling and high bust potential.
I didn't like the Holliday vehicle but I thought the cost was reasonable and was impressed at the time that we only gave up what we did, which minimized what I thought was a poor decision to try to contend.
So while not being happy with the process initially, lets look at the results. Predictably, Holliday struggled upon moving to the cavernous Coliseum which hurt his perceived value. He did go on a rampage toward the end of his tenure. During the season the further deterioration of the economy coupled with less fans in the seats and higher debt loads for the two of the highest payroll teams, continued to push the market toward overvaluing younger cost controlled assets compared to past years and even when Beane mad the first Holliday trade. There weren't many suitors as teams that looking at the map last year like the Mets, Atlanta, and San Francisco who should have been involved were out of the equation early or never even called on Holliday. Teams like the Reds and Royals didn't stay hot long enough to delude themselves that a one player was enough. The Tigers wanted in but their farm system is about as healthy as the ones outside of Chernobyl.
The Cardinals were the only team that came calling with legitimate interest and legitimate prospects. The interesting thing is that the Cardinals even acknowledged that they were giving up more value than they were receiving. According to Peter Gammons:
In the Matt Holliday case, manager Tony La Russa was able to convince Cardinals ownership that, in the words of Tom Petty, "it's the wrong thing to do/but I don't care"; tomorrow may never come.
Now here comes the difficult thing. Do we reward Beane for having the foresight to know that one team would be willing to give a bounty despite knowingly accepting less value or do we acknowledge that Beane was a inch away of losing his gambit? I choose the latter.
Most pundits declared Beane's second Holliday trade a coup. Like most trades the team that wanted to reap future gains at the expense of present ones came out with more expected value. Erik Manning over at Fangraphs broke down the trade, saying that the A's traded about $8m in expected value for $25 million dollars in expected value of Wallace alone. That fails to include Mortenson, or Peterson, which according to Victor Wang's research (summarized in pretty tables at BtB by Sky Kalkman) by are worth an additional $2.2m. Therefore, in this part of the arbitrage, as expected Beane comes a way with a decisive win, despite essentially only one team being involved in the bidding.
Some have gone as far as to suggest that the players received in the second Holliday deal are more valuable than the players traded to acquire them. I think they are wrong and using Wang's research and projections of WAR evaluations its hardly a close call. The A's gave up $43.2 million in expected value for Holliday who was worth $3.4 million dollars in surplus value to the team ($12.4 million in value - $7.5 million salary - $1.5 million cash given to the Cardinals) who was exchanged for $27.2 million in value from the Cardinals. Under these projections there is a clear $15 million loss to the A's.
There are ways to improve that number from the prospective of the A's. Street's value to the A's as a relief pitcher is less than the WAR would suggest, as the A's have a significant number of above replacement value relievers. However, this does not take into account Street's trade value, which regardless of his playing value to the A's, would remain. The George Sherril trade is a good benchmark with the Oriels receiving a B grade position prospect and a B grade pitching prospect, which carries a $12.8 million dollar expected value, which exceeds the projected value that was given to Street from his performance. Gonzalez's value is likewise minimized to the A's if the A's have an internal replacement that exceeds the baseline for WAR. Ryan Sweeney presents a strong likelihood of being a at least 1.5 WAR player which would minimize the loss of Gonzalez even if Gonzalez becomes a star. The internal replacements of the players given away are far better than the internal options at third base after the Hannahan trade. The question is is that difference enough to justify a $15 million dollar (or about 3.5 marginal wins).
I would argue that it isn't. Near universal scouting reports suggest that Wallace will not be able to man the hot corner long term. As such, I don't think that he is worth the additional value. If Adrian Cardenas was rushed to play 3b in the big leagues next year, I would project that he would be able to minimize the loss versus baseline replacement to keep from justifying a $15 million dollar loss for positional talent redistribution. Lets say Wallace has a .354 wOBA next year and is -10 FRAA over 600 PA. That would make him a 2.75 WAR player and an above average starter. Now lets look at Cardenas. If one projects him as a .312 wOBA and league average defense hes a 1.25 WAR player, and over two seasons an improvement from Cardenas to Wallace only represents 3 marginal wins or $13.5 million.
Overall, I think Beane had the right idea trading the three players he did for proven talent. Huston Street has bounced back significantly, but expecting him to do that was far from a sure thing. Carlos Gonzalez's patience and his value are coming around strong, though I don't ever expect him to be a star. Greg Smith got hurt and has pitched poorly, which was entirely predictable. However, I disagree with his the target for the arbitrage, as there were players that would have a better chance at maintaining their perceptual value better than Holliday, such as Javier Vasquez or Adrian Beltre. Finally the reward was not nearly good enough to justify what I believe was a poor process by exhibiting good ending results. I chalk this up as a creative but ultimately failed gambit by Beane, though the end result (a loss of about $2 million dollars) was not in any way debilitating.
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Wallace
All in all, I like the overall trade of Street for Wallace. The A’s needed a young infielder, and to boot Wallace is a local guy who grew up an A’s fan. I hope he makes it.
On another note, this is an incredible analysis that is written here by designatedfor assignment. Wow! Incredible! You did a great job of breaking down the trades, the pros and cons, the values, the risks. I’m very impressed. Keep writing and analyzing
Thanks for the compliments
My brother asked me why I continued to write 3000+ word papers now that I am out of college, especially since I hated doing it so much when I was there. I responded that if I got to write about the A’s I surely would have been much more studious in college.
I have a problem in viewing it as a Wallace for Street Deal. Street and Smith were far greater value than Wallace. Carlos Gonzalez has a far far greater value than the Cardinals throw ins.
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 9, 2009 3:58 PM PDT up reply actions
I am very glad to hear that college didn't ruin you.
School tries very hard to make people hate writing, or failing that at least learn how to write without communicating.
Fortunately, you were immune to school’s baleful influence.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
See I like exams but hate papers.
Mostly because I have a near stunning ability to store and regurgitate auditory information. However, I have ADD and some form of spelling disability. So while I throughly enjoy sitting down for an hour econ exams or essay exams in politics classes, I loathe papers, since they emphasize the skills where I am weakest (proof reading, planning, and not reading AN instead of doing work), rather than exams that maximize what I am good with (logic and information retention).
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 9, 2009 6:39 PM PDT up reply actions
I too was an expert regurgitator, which allowed me to
coast through high school with hardly any effort. Naturally, I enjoyed it because I was good at getting A’s, so I always “won”. Some time around senior year I realized the game was stupid so I stopped playing. I finished high school but never went on to college.
On the whole I’m happy with my decision. What few regrets I have have nothing to do with education.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
What did you think of the conclusion of the article though?
95 votes already of which nearly 90 percent of which disagreed with my conclusion and no one is arguing with me! Lame!!!!!
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 9, 2009 6:41 PM PDT up reply actions
Of course I will argue with you, DFA.
You just need to be patient and give me a chance to write it down….
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
LOL Im sorry if I was impatient, but you are one of my favorite people to debate with.
You engage the arguments and do an excellent job of making me question my assumptions, and therefore are a very worthy opponent.
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 9, 2009 10:44 PM PDT up reply actions
I have a hard time Disagreeing with you DFA
Excellent excellent post. 10 Months ago, I would have argued Gregg Smith had a brighter future, but of course, his injury plagued season would have shot my argument down. Very good analysis, I really enjoyed reading your post!!
No I don't!
No I’m not!
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
I don't see why you resist it so much.
You debate in ways that are productive and valuable learning tools, confounding some of the stereotypes you have about debate only being about winning.
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 9, 2009 11:37 PM PDT up reply actions
It's on!
I may be lacking facts, logic and sobriety, but I’m always up for a fight! But I still need some time to gather my unformed thoughts and non-sequiturs, so bear with me.
HAHAHAHAH sounds fun.
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 10, 2009 3:40 PM PDT up reply actions
haha great line:
I may be lacking facts, logic and sobriety, but I’m always up for a fight!
sounds like me.
witty remark
by dtownmbrown on Aug 11, 2009 10:08 AM PDT up reply actions
3 years
Some trades take years to see who comes out on top. Wallace vs Carlos is basicly what will work out. If you add in Street value the rockies are + over A’s. So check back in 3 years to see who wins.
Obviously the end result isn't tallied yet.
But I find it hard to believe that Carlos Gonzalez, mostly due to defensive prowess is going to completely bust out. If his defense stays where it is (somewhere around 10 FRAA) he can have a .312 wOBA and still be a 2.25 WAR player. Wallace has to hit and hit well to be a consistently good player. Gonzalez’s bat never has to be above league average for him to be a good player.
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 9, 2009 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions
agreed, but I don't think CarGon was every going to be an above-average AL hitter
I think it was a good trade, and a good time to trade him. Good for all involved. CarGon is now in the place where he has the best chance to succeed. His game is tailor-made for Colorado. The expansive outfield gives him full opportunity to show off his tremendous range and outstanding arm – regardless of what outfield spot he plays in Coors, because of how big the outfield is. You put CarGon in left field at Citizens Bank park, and it’s a waste of his skills. Put him in left (or center or right, obviously) in Colorado, and you’re really leveraging his talents. He also hits a lot of balls hard on the ground or less than 15 feet off the ground, and in Colorado, those balls have a better chance of becoming doubles or triples with his speed than they do in most places.
But the bottom line is he has poor plate discipline, and that’s the kiss of death in the AL, where the pitching is superior. You can get away with a Benjie Molina/Pablo Sandoval approach in the NL. Hell, you can thrive with it. It gets exposed by superior AL pitching though. I cannot think of an elite AL hitter with poor plate discipline.
He also wasn’t very easy to coach, and the A’s aren’t very good at coaching players that aren’t easy to coach (some of you might even argue the A’s aren’t very good at coaching hitters at the major league level period, an argument that has some merit).
I don’t feel CarGon isn’t good. I just don’t think he ever would’ve succeeded for us – both because of the more difficult hitting environment, and our coaching staff. So it made sense to deal him before his value dipped further.
Team-specific environment is very important IMO. That’s something that Fangraphs can’t account for.
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Aug 9, 2009 10:06 PM PDT up reply actions
For what it's worth, CarGo has markedly improves his plate discipline this year.
14 BBs in 122 at bats….which pro rates to almost 70 in a full season. He’s also improved a lot in every other part of his offensive game. His home/road splits aren’t that big (.780 OPS on the road, .836 at home). Overall he’s putting up a .348 wOBA. SSS applies of course…but the fact that he’s improved so much, especially in plate discipline, bodes well for his future.
And the whole “wasn’t easy to coach thing” is 90% IMO A’s fans fabricating a reason to like the Matt Holliday trade and not miss CarGo (common phenomenon: players your team acquired are great; players your team traded away suddenly have flaws). I didn’t hear a peep about this when he was here, on the Diamondbacks, and haven’t heard a thing since he got traded to the Rockies.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Aug 9, 2009 11:51 PM PDT up reply actions
I think the other thing is that he plateaued for two years with the DBacks and A's
and now is exploding with the Rockies. The other thing is its rare to have a situation where a team that is thinking about trading a prospect would criticize that prospects unwillingness to be coached, as it diminishes that prospect’s value on the trade market.
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 10, 2009 12:13 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, I kinda doubt anyone from the A's would leak something like that.
My main issue is with A’s fans’ perceptions of Gonzalez; he went from “promising, probable franchise cornerstone albeit with some holes” to “likely bust with attitude problems” with the trade.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Aug 10, 2009 1:02 AM PDT up reply actions
Oh Im there with you 100%
I was never that high on Gonzalez, or Cunningham (though I never really could pinpoint why on AC), but I was in love with Brett Anderson, Chris Carter, and thought Eveland would do well in Oakland when the trade went down. One of the things that I have railed against especially this season at AN is the almost bipolar analysis that is wholly dependent on small sample sizes and whether the team or player does well that day. The Beane doesn’t like baseball meme lasted until “Mazzaro’s World” where it promptly died until the team started sucking again.
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 10, 2009 1:21 AM PDT up reply actions
"One of the things that I have railed against especially this season at AN is the almost bipolar analysis that is wholly dependent on small sample sizes and whether the team or player does well that day."
So does this mean you DON’T think Rajai Davis and Tommy Everidge are God’s gifts to baseball? ;)
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Aug 10, 2009 3:21 AM PDT up reply actions
Hahaha, Im starting to come around on Rajai
but thats mostly because im a defense whore like Kevin Goldstien is a velocity whore, I just find is much easier to believe that a prospect will put up a defensive number that I can guesstimate than a prospect hit like I think they can. Except for Chris Carter who is going to just destroy baseballs for years. As for the SSS, you wouldn’t believe how mad people got when during Mazzaro’s world I would point out that the team still sucked.
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 10, 2009 9:11 AM PDT up reply actions
that is a good one, good point.
I hadn’t thought of Vlad. But then again, I just looked at his career BB to strikeout numbers, and it’s 666 to 813. That’s pretty good. I don’t expect CarGon to come close to that. At times, CarGon has had K to walk ratios of 4 to 1. That’s kind of scary. I don’t think you ever see those among elite hitters in the AL.
Vlad’s an outlier in about every way though. He might be the best “bad ball” hitter in the last 20 years. His K to walk ratio looks good in part because he has such a freakish athletic ability to hit just about anything, and because he probably got unintentionally/“intentionally” walked a lot in his career.
I do not think CarGon has shown any such tendencies. He has a high strikeout percentage, while Vlad has had a very low one throughout his career.
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Aug 10, 2009 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions
I have had this argument with Dave Cameron before
In several threads, but especially his epic “Nyjer Morgan = Adam Dunn” thread. Here’s the crux of it, and you’ll see how I’m tying it into your comment about CarGon in just a second…
Cliff’s Notes:
As you of course know, Morgan’s an outstanding defender, Dunn is an atrocious one, and Cameron made a post detailing their stats and commenting that they are basically near equals in value, but that a.) the mainstream public doesn’t believe that, and b.) their contracts don’t reflect their equal value.
My reply:
A weakness of WAR is that it doesn’t account for “skill scarcity”. As such, I feel it inflates defensive value.
For example, Rajai Davis is an outstanding defender and good baserunner, and yet he made it through the entire NL waivers – even though he was born to play in the NL – when the Giants DFA’d him last year. That’s partially because the skill sets of “fast guy” and “good defender who can’t hit” are superfluous in minor league systems. Seemingly every team has a guy on its major league bench or in AAA who is a great defender but doesn’t hit well enough to keep a job.
Dunn’s skill set is more precious. Very rare is the player that is capable of consistently hitting 40 home runs in a season. Such a player would never simply go unclaimed on waivers with a near-league-minimum salary, as Davis did, or be an afterthought as Morgan was for a while. Further evidence of this is that the Jake Foxes, Shelley Duncans, and Jack Custs seem to always get at least one chance, but the minors are littered with defensive wizards who just can’t get it done at the plate, and never will. Defensive replacement level is far higher than offensive replacement level. This makes sense intuitively; I could field a routine major league ground ball and throw the runner out at first, but I’d be hitless in 100 at-bats against ML pitching.
I feel the scarcity of the skill set is unaccounted for in WAR calculations and it causes fangraphs to slightly overvalue defensive contributions. If Cargon ends up being a below-average hitter who’s an outstanding defender…well, there’s a lot of those that are freely available talent.
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Aug 9, 2009 10:37 PM PDT up reply actions
I think there is another good argument that you're missing on your side but I still disagree.
I remember those threads well and disagreed with Cameron’s conclusion. I think a good arguement that you aren’t making is that the sample size in measuring defense is so large that it allows for a much greater variation in nominal values compared to a true value than nominal wOBA does when compared to actual value offensively. Therefore, with players like Morgan and Davis we are much less sure of the value of their defensive contributions than we are the negative value of their luck. My argument when it came to Morgan was that he is experiencing a career offensive year which make his defensive contributions stand out because he isn’t sucking as bad with offense. When Morgan regresses offensively I expect him to be less much less valuable and I am still a believer in Milderage’s upside.
I have a problem with your skill scarcity argument. You are, of course correct that there are plenty of all defense no hit players in AAA, but there use to be plenty of no average all OBP players in AAA. Now when the market has corrected from the undervaluation, players like Cust don’t linger in AAA as often anymore. I believe the market will correct by playing more of the Rajai Davis’ and Nyjer Morgan’s of the world for a while till there is a swing back toward offensive players who are defensively challenged.
When you talk about defensive replacement rate, I agree that it is probably easier to find a player who can excel defensively than one who will excel offensively. However, that suggests that the league average defensive value would be higher which would also suggest that things like UZR which are based off of the league average would account for your argument.
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 9, 2009 11:32 PM PDT up reply actions
i take issue with the "large sample size" argument
In fact, would argue the reverse. Every time a player steps in the batter’s box— he— along with the pitcher— controls what will happen to the baseball. yes, fielders play a significant role once the ball is hit, but it all begins with a defined work space with a lot of variation built in. Counts… number of pitches.. walks, hard hit balls, grounders that advance the runner, strikeouts, etc…
An awful lot of defense—particularly in the outfield— involves plays my 12 year old could make nearly as well as a big leaguer. How many times per game does a centerfielder truly make a difference-making or potentially game alteriing play that a much lesser player could not? I don’t know but it’s obviously less than one.
This, of course, assumes that you need the scarce skill
If it is really true that a run saved on defense is exactly equal to a run scored on offense, then who cares if Dunn’s skill set is rarer?
Say, for example, I needed a dollar and you had five dollars with one characteristic and one with another (for example, made in Denver or Philly). To the extent you care, you’ll probably give me one of the common ones. I, however, end up with the same dollar of value no matter whether you give me the common or the rare bill.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
This is a really good point.
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 10, 2009 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions
perhaps we do need that scarce skill
I’m not sure we can prove that we don’t. I personally believe that players hit better when they are surrounded by other good hitters. (I’m not talking about “protection” of the hitter immediately around you; I know about Tango’s research there).
If the presence of Adam Dunn or “Great Hitter X” in the middle of a lineup has a positive impact on every other hitter in the lineup, then that’s significant, especially since Adam Dunn’s skillset is very rare – moreso than that of an elite defender.
Ultimately, I think you need balance. I don’t think you trot out a lineup of nine Ryan Langerhans and win, any more than I believe that you can win with Adam Dunn’s defense at several skill positions.
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Aug 10, 2009 4:44 PM PDT up reply actions
It's an interesting question
And, probably, one that would be impossible to study.
If you could have a team of 2+ WAR guys whose value is entirely defense, would they be able to hang with a team of 2+ WAR guys who were balanced? Who were almost entirely offense?
I think the general theory behind WAR is that it doesn’t matter where the value comes from (although measuring defense is harder than offense), and if that’s true then your scarcity point is irrelevant. I suspect, however, that you’re right about needing some balance.
The problem for both of us is that there’s no way to know whether we’re right, and if we’re wrong we’re dramatically overpaying for the scarce guys.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Thats awesome
Im 23 and quite possibly my favorite thing to do in the world is date girls. The sig was written when the girl im seeing was being weird and the two others that I was entertaining, the first girl i ever dated back in 2002 was re-expressing interest but then faded away, and this girl where i was volunteering who was hitting on me just stopped. Very strange time. Of course I would like to find my Roy Halladay, but Ive got plenty of time for that and when there is the possibility of some heart sparkles I’ve forgone other women. That being said there is nothing better than making a girl dinner for the first time or taking her to the MOMA. There are over three billion women on this planet and Ive only dated several large handfuls of them. So to diversify I go.
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 11, 2009 2:24 AM PDT up reply actions
um i have no idea how that ended up here instead of in reply to notsellingjeans.
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 11, 2009 2:28 AM PDT up reply actions
Haha
I was trying to tease out a point in there somewhere until I read the second comment.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
This is one of those times when being able to move a comment in thread would be supremely helpful
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 11, 2009 9:59 AM PDT up reply actions
Watching him cartwheel a throw to home plate was a thing of beauty.
One thing the A’s need to do is refrain from labeling certain prospects the future- its unfair to fans when they are traded away 6 months later.
The team needs infield depth, in that regards I feel the 2nd Holliday deal was marginally successful- albeit 1st base is looking rather crowded if Wallace cant hold 3rd.
Dont blow Bailey.
Excellent article by Carl Steward...
pretty much tells it like it is in this organization. All the possible future analysis can’t cover up the fact that this GM has made some serious errors in judgement that have adversly affected the franchise. Go ahead and give players grades… I’ll give one to the GM…D+.
by Keystone State on Aug 10, 2009 6:25 AM PDT up reply actions
Im sorry but wtf are you talking about?
Who is Carl Steward? And why do you believe an expected value loss of $2m is a serious error in judgement. In fact, I believe that Beane even attempted this stunt was very astute though there was a little hitch along the way.
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 10, 2009 9:14 AM PDT up reply actions
He is a sports writer...
for the Oakland Tribune! Wake up.
by Keystone State on Aug 11, 2009 5:32 AM PDT up reply actions
People still read newspapers? Get into this millennium
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 11, 2009 8:32 AM PDT up reply actions
Actually...
I read the article online, duh. Here in PA we don’t really get the Tribune in hard copy.
by Keystone State on Aug 11, 2009 5:46 PM PDT up reply actions
I like the focus on process rather than results
but I think that you give too little respect to the idea of contending in 2009. Since we’re talking about process, we can’t use our 20/20 hindsight to know that Holliday would start out incredibly cold, Cabrera would go from consistently being 3 WAR to ~1 WAR for this season, Giambi would have a .700 OPS, and the Angels would be leading the majors in runs scored.
I’m definitely not an expert, but I did have the strong opinion, that the AL West would be an extremely winnable division. You have to take your shots sometimes and, while the rotation was a question mark, the A’s did start the season with Holliday, Giambi, and Cust at the heart of the order, plus what we assumed would be a large upgrade at shortstop.
In hindsight, we made a bad decision. But from a process-oriented point of view, the 2009 AL West was a pretty good basket to put your eggs in.
I never thought we would content in 2009 and that trying was a folly.
So yes I may have undervalued the value of contending. For the A’s to contend everything, even after the A’s acquired Holliday, Giambi, Cabrera, and Springer had to break the right way, but it didn’t. To be honest expecting a rotation full of rookies and second year pitchers to contend was unrealistic, even if the projection systems said we could, because of the high deviation in possible outcomes. I would argue that the expected value of the costs required to attempt to contend this year far outweighed the $40 million dollar estimated value of getting into the playoffs.
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 9, 2009 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions
We also know that Duchscherer and Chavez didn't 'break the right way' either!
by LowcountryJoe on Aug 9, 2009 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions
And Eveland and Gallagher were both busts
Eveland had some success toward the end of last year, and the A’s assumed that Duchsherer would be back by opening day. With a rotation of a healthy Duke, the Eveland of last August & September, and a major jump by Gallagher - plus two of this year’s young rotation - and a healthy Joey Devine, I’m not sure how unreasonable this year’s expectations actually were.
For instance, had Beane signed Vazquez and Abreau instead of Giambi and Garciaparra, and had Duke, Outman and Devine been healthy, and Eveland pitching as he did when he returned last year, how successful would the team have been? I’m not including either Chavez or Gallagher here because both were giant question marks.
I have problems with this
Duke hasn’t been healthy in years and was coming back off of a second hip surgery and had a major spike in innings the year before. Yes it was a bad break that hes been hurt all year but counting on him to anchor your rotation was a terrible idea. Joey Divine missed half the year with arm problems last year. Gallagher also had health issues last year.
So basically you’re relying on Dallas Braden and Dana Eveland as you’re only two reliable starters to form a rotation that will take you to the playoffs? Right…
BTW Vazquez was traded and not signed.
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 11, 2009 9:58 AM PDT up reply actions
Good Response
I guess by Vazquez, I could’ve said “any mid-rotation pitcher” but the formulation doesn’t change.
I’ll still stand by my own theory, which was that Beane had a year to kill because the prospects weren’t going to be ready in any case, and he might as well throw the dice instead of give up before the season began.
I was bending over backward to give him more credit on the crapshoot, but maybe I shouldn’t have been.
In response: Who the fuck cares.
If you have substantive comments please make them; if you want to check for typos go somewhere else.
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 11, 2009 5:56 PM PDT up reply actions
Well put a bunch of time in, wrote 3,500 words, and you have written a comment about an irrelevant article and pointed out a typo.
AKA done nothing to further the conversation. So yea, I might be a little annoyed.
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 11, 2009 6:17 PM PDT up reply actions
As you might guess, I'm instinctively skeptical
of the formula that assigns value to each player’s contract — skeptical in the literal sense that I’m not necessarily rejecting it but I want to question it and examine it more closely.
Alas, I haven’t sufficient attention to completely absorb the formulation, but I did follow the links and skim through the stories, and it looks like what they’re doing is figuring a player’s WAR, assigning a cash value to that, comparing it to actual salary, taking the difference between the two for each year left on the contract, then taking the sum of those differences as the player’s contract’s total value. Does that sound about right?
So when you say Brett Wallace is “worth $25 million”, that’s what you’re measuring.
What I don’t see anywhere in there is any accounting for the cost of taking up a slot on the team. I don’t mean just the rosters, though that’s a big part of it, but just the size of the team itself. Only so many guys can play.
Intuitively we can easily see this. If you’ve got 15 guys worth $10 million each for the year, and I’ve got 150 guys worth $1 million each, we obviously don’t have equal value. Your team will kick my team’s ass, because I can’t play all 150 of my guys.
Similarly, if you’ve got a guy who will be worth $5 million this year, while I’ve got a guy who will be worth $1 million a year over five years, your guy is more valuable because you can get his full value this year then go out and look for another $5 million guy next year. My guy on the other hand, is taking up a roster slot for five years, and if I manage to come up with a $2 million guy one year, then the $1×5 guy will spend that year on the bench and be no help at all.
My point is that you can’t just add up all their quantified WAR surpluses and call it value to the team unless you’re simultaneously measuring that against the congestion cost of filling out the team. And unless that cost is buried in the WAR evaluations somewhere where I can’t see it, it’s missing.
If it is indeed missing, then you could expect the calculations to undervalue reasonably well-paid guys who have higher certainty of being good relative to underpaid guys who are more of a gamble, and to overvalue guys with multiple years on their contracts relative to those with fewer years — and just looking at your numbers here in this article and trying to assess them intuitively, I’d say that’s exactly what we see.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
by iglew on Aug 9, 2009 6:56 PM PDT reply actions 7 recs
{slowly nodding}
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Aug 9, 2009 10:15 PM PDT up reply actions
All good arguments
There is a value in having increased concentration of WAR that this formula does not take into consideration. Also the formula does not take into consideration a team’s own internal replacement, though I attempted to explain that with regard to Street his trade value exceeded his production value to the A’s. Smith you definitely have a point though, and Carlos Gonzalez would have provided enough WAR to warrant a spot on the roster or a trade. Yes players with a higher level of certainty in terms of performance are more valuable, if only because you know what you are getting, which incidentally is why I argued that Holliday was a bad vehicle for holding value.
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 10, 2009 1:37 AM PDT up reply actions
great comment
I was meaning to write something along these lines as a follow up to my previous comment about this being a good year to go for it.
In addition to the idea that it is worth a premium to get more WAR concentrated in a single player, there should also be a premium associated with getting it now (i.e. this season). This relates back to dfa’s comment above when he mentions the $40M value of getting into the playoffs. I know that these numbers come from sound research on ticket sales, merchandise, media contracts, etc, but as a baseball fan I would put the value of the playoffs much higher (hmm… I thinking about what I would use to try to judge that number, but I’m not coming up with much). Anyway, if you decide that the incentive for making the playoffs is higher than the financial benefits to the team owners, then it is worth taking more risking and putting more of your scarce resources into a few players (since you can only play 9 guys at a time, as iglew points out).
Of course, we are spoiled in having one of the better general managers out there, so we assume that the A’s can simultaneously go for it and build for the future. I think that dfa is correct in saying that the first Holliday trade was pretty strongly weighted in the go for it direction, but Beane hasn’t been neglecting the future either.
"concentration of WAR"
I was having this conversation with a buddy of mine a week ago about Beane. The thing Beane hasn’t been able to do in the last 6+ years is produce a 5-8 win player – you know, an Utley, someone who is just miles ahead of the pack at his position and covers for deficiencies at other positions. (e.g., It’s easier for your offense to swallow starting Jack Hannahan at 3b if Chase Utley is your 2b).
But I also think that he can’t really be taken to task for that much if at all, because producing/getting guys of that caliber has some serious luck involved, because a.) the A’s haven’t sucked badly enough to get a top-3 draft pick, b.) nobody would ever trade such a player if it was obvious he’d develop into that, and c.) the A’s can’t very easily afford that type of player in free agency.
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Aug 10, 2009 5:52 AM PDT up reply actions
Good points NSJ
Could either Brett Wallace or Chris Carter, or maybe even Adrian Cardenas be that next caliber of player?
Or maybe even Jemile Weeks? I actually have seen him play and I was very impressed. He does have a ways to go but he did display a certain amount of polish that most other players that I have seen at Class A did not. His bat speed is especially dazzling and he’s very fast on the bases. Also, he has some pretty surprising pop for not being a really big guy.
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
I think Carter can be
To be a 5 WAR player Carter in RF needs to hit for a wOBA of .400 and have defense no worse than -2.5 Runs. He has hit for a .400 wOBA at every level of play except for a 13 game trial in A ball in 2006.
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 10, 2009 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions
this would be awesome
I am forgetting the details of the defensive spectrum, but would he need to hit for 10 more runs to get the same value playing at 1B? How much more wOBA does that work out to?
Also, someone with some scouting reports could enlighten us about whether he projects to be an average defender at 1B, because we could get those -2.5 fielding runs back.
I have him playing in RF
Which is I think where he probably should end up, since he is a pretty fast dude once he gets up to speed and apparently has quite a good arm. I think he can a league average RFer which saves him 5 runs since in the COF your positional adjustment is -7.5 and at 1b it is -12.5. He could probably top out as a league average defender at 1b and I wouldn’t expect him to be atrocious like he was at 3b.
From the preceding section, we know the run values of each event. For example, we know that the run value of the HR is 1.4 runs above average, and 1.7 runs above the run value of the out. In rate measures, like OBP, the value of the out in the numerator is zero. If we recast the run values of the most common events relative to the out (rather than relative to the result of an average plate appearance), we get the following:
HR 1.70, 3B 1.37, 2B 1.08, 1B 0.77, NIBB 0.62.
Those numbers are the values of each of our events (again, relative to an out, which now has a value of zero). If we apply these weights to the statistics of a league-average hitter, and divide by plate appearances, we end up with a rate of almost 0.300. This is a fairly convenient number for an average, but we can do better. Since we like OBP as a measure of a batter’s effectiveness, let’s scale our new statistic so that the resulting values are similar to OBP values. It turns out that, if we add 15% to this 0.300 figure, we get the league-average OBP. Therefore, we will add 15% to the weights of each event and define our new statistic as follows:
(0.72xNIBB + 0.75xHBP + 0.90×1B + 0.92xRBOE + 1.24×2B + 1.56×3B + 1.95xHR) / PA
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 10, 2009 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Close
BRAA = (wOBA-League Average wOBA/ 1.15) * PA
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 10, 2009 2:27 PM PDT up reply actions
Personal opinion that's not really based on anything, but I think RF is the last hope for Carter...
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Aug 10, 2009 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions
Why?
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 10, 2009 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Based on a couple of plays Carter ridiculously miffed on at the Futures Game + a couple of games I saw while Midland was playing in San Antonio
Like I said, nothing substantial, just eyeball scouting and “gut feeling.” The big guy looked very awkward and uncomfortable trying to pick groundballs. Obviously, I could be perfectly (and probably am) wrong.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Aug 10, 2009 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions
Oh you mean at 1b... that makes sense
Also the guy is massive and is still 22 so he might just be learning to control ganglyness
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 10, 2009 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions
The other thing that I think you also have to consider is increased risk in concentration of WAR
If you have two 2.5 WAR players and one of them falls off the team bus, you still have 2.5 WAR to fall back on. If you have a 5 WAR player who cracks his skull on the bottom of the hotel swimming pool, you have nothing left. Look at Erik Bedard as an example of that. Especially with a rebuilding team with as many holes as the A’s had before the year, I think it makes much more sense to infuse the team with value now and then trade average parts for a massive upgrade rather than trade good parts for a massive upgrade while having a huge talent deficit around that massive upgrade.
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 10, 2009 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions
this is extremely true
But I still stand by the argument that to make the playoffs you need some players who are not just good but great. The fact that your great player might get injured should just increase the value of a player like Holliday who doesn’t have a history of injuries.
(note: I really have no idea about Holliday’s injury history, but I did just check and saw that the fewest games he has played in a season is 121 his rookie year… so no big ouchies)
Holliday's value as a player that isn't injured frequently does improve his value relative to other players
But metaphorically, when ARod who has always been healthy has a hip problem, you still have to play Cody Ransom, and you should discount Holliday’s value by the odds that you have to do that. Having two players is more risk adverse, which negates some of the advantage gained by concentrating WAR.
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 10, 2009 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions
The problem there is the measurement uncertainty
For example, if I have 3 guys who are all 2 WAR, should I trade for 1 6 WAR guy or 2 3 WAR guys?
One argument for the former is that at least we are sure we’re getting a better player. The 3 WAR guy’s true talent might not be much different than any of the guys I have. See, e.g., Cabrera vs. Crosby for the first half of the season.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
The question is do we have a better idea certainty for higher WAR players?
I mean I think that your argument only has weight if there is a difference in our ability to evaluate high medium and low grade talent effectively, which it very well could be. Otherwise its probably advantageous to spread your risk out.
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 10, 2009 3:48 PM PDT up reply actions
That's a fair point
I guess I’m coming at it from the perspective that if I’m giving up my guys I want to see a real improvement. If we have a 0.5 WAR margin of error on all players (for convenient math purposes), I know the 6 WAR guy is at least going to be better. I don’t know that about the 3 WAR guys.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
I'm looking at your sig...
and I think we might both be biased on this issue. :)
You prefer “diversification of your assets”, and I admittedly once felt the same. But then I found Roy Halladay and married her.
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Aug 10, 2009 5:18 PM PDT up reply actions
I appreciate the effort put into to this post. Well done dfa.
I really try to give stats and measured data it’s due but at some point my brain just says “stop!!!”. I guess it’s just a matter of taste or perhaps it’s just my thought process in relating to numbers etc….I also prefer just watching the players on the field over number crunching but then again that’s why I’m a fan and not a MLB GM. :)
My personal opinion on this matter is Beane washed in the first part of the Holliday trade and won on the second part. I say this mostly because the A’s plugged a hole at 3rd with Wallace, at least for a couple of years…maybe more but who really knows?
Will he hit the living piss out of the ball? We all sure as shit hope so! The fact that the Cards were so reluctant to let go of him until they “absolutlety had to” tells me how highly they thought of Wallace and his abilities, even though they were salivating at the thought of Holliday hitting behind Pujols for the rest of the season. One thing is for sure…..I can’t wait to see the kid play so bring it on! Back to the trade stuff, oh yeah….!
Street is having a really nice bounce back year (albeit in the NL-new league might take the batters awhile to figure him out, we’ll see in 2010) but I still would have pulled the trigger on the first trade anyways. G-Smith is a non factor at this point and Carlos Gonzalez still has not proved anything at the big league level other than he has a pretty decent glove. At this point I’d take Ryan Sweeney or Raj Davis over him.
Again, nice piece of work my fellow AN brother.
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
I think, as well, there is another factor in the Holliday trade
One that it’s nearly impossible to measure, I suspect, but one that’s worth noting.
This season always looked like it was likely to be a third consecutive sub five hundred year for the team. Throw in a fan base that had grown used to success, and was becoming agited by the appearance that the team couldn’t hang on to its ‘star players’, and you have a growing sense of disillusionment. As such, being able to sell the idea of competing at the beginning of the year, when most season tickets are purchased, has a significant value. Once the tickets are purchased, there’s no way of getting that money back! Is there? Remember, the idea of going out to see a new pitching prospect (or Jack Cust being totally awesome) doesn’t excite everyone, so if you can cobble together a tv ad with Matt Holliday looking fierce and hitting home runs, Mr Average fan might be more likely to go ahead and buy a family six pack, or whatnot.
And of course, whatever anyone says about ESPN and it’s East Coast bias, I suspect everyone here got a little thrill to see the A’s making a splash, and national tv talking about our team in a positive, non derisory way, for a little bit. Every fan wants to dream that their team has a chance to win (before the drugery of reality comes crashing down like so many pricipitous horseshoes)
Of course, the economy will have skewed the addendance figures, which clearly haven’t been good, but there’s no telling how good they would have been. Obviously, the best way to raise you attendance is to put a fun, winning product out on the field, but there is more to going to a baseball game than seeing your team win; the sunshine, seeing friends, getting out of the house, and so forth, which people are apt to forget if there’s no reason to go.
I suspect, too that attendance lags success, so it’s important for the team to maintain interest, one way or another, during the down periods.
Anyway, the length of this post probably is out of proportion to the actual importance of this part of the deal, but it’s something worth bearing in mind when considering it.
My view on the deal? Hell, it’s given us something to talk about, hasn’t it? Anything that can distract us from the grim inevitables in life has got to be worth something in my book. But I suspect Beane doesn’t take my mental well being into consideration when he makes trades…
Well if that was their desire they should have traded for someone animated without a complete monotone voice
I would argue that if you are Beane you know that in all likelihood you have to trade Holliday or let him walk so putting him on all the billboards or what not isn’t really a good idea for long term fan morale if your concerns are accurate.
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 10, 2009 1:43 AM PDT up reply actions
This is true
I won’t comment as to Holliday’s charisma levels or whatever (it totally doesn’t bother me whether an athlete is interesting or not), but you are right – the success of this ploy is something that could be debated. It is something worth keeping in mind, however.
one hell of an article
but i think holliday and the subsequent trade was a success.
we gave up greg smith, cargon and huston street. huston street, who was no longer closing and was showing he wasn’t as effective as he used to. greg smith, who as you said, just had elbow surgery. and even when he was healthy, he didn’t inspire that much confidence, especially long-term. the biggest piece of the deal was Cargon, who may or may not develop into a quality 5-tool CF. but like you said, his bat and plate discipline left a lot to be desired.
we received a half year of holliday. At the beginning of the season, we were a dark horse candidate to contend and even win a weak AL west. the holliday additions, along w/ others (most of which have totally backfired), the development of 2nd year players along with a young talented pitching staff had a chance to compete in 2009. it seems stupid now, but holliday could’ve been a major part of the a’s making the playoffs in 2009.
we also received brett wallace from the cardinals (along w/ the other 2 throw ins). i think if wallace could stick at 3b (the a’s are atleast trying him there in SAC, right?) he could be a solid bat at a position where the a’s have a pretty dire need.
i like these moves for the a’s because it gave them more of a chance to win in 2009 and even when it backfired, the a’s still got rid of 2 pitchers who didnt figure to have long term roles with the club and a CF prospect who had been struggling at the plate and may not have been that great defensively. we also filled a potential need if wallace sticks at 3b (although, if he hits well, he’ll fill a “need” regardless)
Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!!
Well I have several problems with this.
The idea that “it seems stupid now” but at the time it was a good idea to try to contend is one that I especially don’t like. There were plenty of people, WaddelCanseco especially comes to mind, that though us trying to contend was a bad idea and I would count myself among them. Plus the Holliday move didn’t actually give the A’s the ability to contend. What it did was give use the ability to spend $10 million dollars on three other players who might have allowed us to contend.
Holliday provided us with 2.9 WAR or $13.1 million of value, for which we paid him $7.5 million for. Essentially the first Holliday trade netted us $5.6 million in value for our attempt at contention for which we gave up $42.3 million. That is a bad trade.
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 10, 2009 12:07 AM PDT up reply actions
The Holiday trade was always for the 3b/SS prospect/player
I don’t happen to think that the move to get Holiday and spend 11 million dollars on Giambi, Cabreara and Springer, were ever intended to ever trully contend in the first place.
The main play was always to trade Holiday at the deadline. Spending 11 million on those FA was never going to get us first place. They were intended to help the young pitchers by scoring more runs than otherwise and giving them a veteran teacher. Sure we could have gotten really lucky and been in first and then been tempted to keep Holiday, but really…a staff as young as ours realistically get anywhere close to contending?
Even if we were in first and he’s hitting 320/380/520, Holiday could have been on the block. We got out of him exactly what was intended in the first place. The best 3rd/SS player/prospect available at the time. The secondary pieces could have been better for sure if Holiday is putting up fat numbers. But the goal had been to get a SS or 3rd prospect/ young player for him and I think we would have traded him regardless. I think the draft comes along and the best left infield position was SS so we take that and target third. If a 3b was the best we grab him and target SS with Holiday.
I think it was BB’s most creative trade yet and a great way to turn 3 replacement level players into a player that is not only a huge organizational need, but a position of prospect scarcity in most teams in baseball. Smith was a 5th starter on a team with 5 other 5th starters available. Street was too expensive at 4.5million,6 million and gone when we had Ziggy and Devine at 400,000 for the next bunch of years. Carlos best possible production was replaced for two years by giving up a 6th starter in AAA. The $ amount on the trades doesn’t matter if we get the one scarce player of need by giving up 3 who are not scarce or not easily replaceable.
BB is playing three chess moves ahead of the other GM’s by even trying something like this. All he needed was one desperate team to make it work out and he found one. People think Wallace was the best prospect traded around the deadline. It might not work out that way in a few years but what more can a GM do than get the consensus best prospect traded? For all I know Wallace and the Cardinals was the player and team BB had his mind from the minute he traded for Holiday. They showed interest in trading for him. They will be as likely as anyone to try and resign him, so for them he is not a rental. I was actually surprised we got a young potential 4-5th starter and that we didn’t have to pay more salary.
It is the type of move BB should try and repeat every year. He basically pulled a three way trade without the other teams being involved.
step 1) find teams with the position of need (SS) your team wants.Step 2) pick out position player with the most possible value to those teams in a pennant chase. (OF) covers a lot of spots. Starting P is another one.Step 3) find the best possible star players that will be a FA the end of following year and can be traded for at those positions. Step 4) trade one prospect of some team depth, one 4- 5th starter, and one soon to be over-payed stud reliever for said star player. or anything like that.step 5) get the best prospect traded around the deadline next year. Step 7) hopefully watch as position of weakness becomes position of cheap strength for 5 years.
If we to throw in another player or cash to make it happen, so be it. Other teams that won’t or can’t won’t get a Wallace type player when we will. If the prospect is at a scarce position and a team need (SS), BB’s plan has worked regardless of the trade evaluation dollars going one way or the other or even if Wallace turns out. I think he made a plan and it worked out just how he wanted. Now he may be wrong on Wallace being the best available player, but so would everyone else, and he would not be wrong to try such a plan in the first place.
"Gratuitous gesticulating together sounds even better"
WTF...
if they wanted Wallace so bad they had every opportunity to draft him the year before. This analysis is absurd.
by Keystone State on Aug 10, 2009 6:27 AM PDT up reply actions
They liked him and Weeks a lot
They wanted both. They couldn’t have both at the time. Now they have both.
They didn’t a single player in their organization that could’ve landed them Wallace via trade with the Cardinals, then they acquired one who could in Holliday. I think his analysis makes a lot of sense.
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Aug 10, 2009 7:07 AM PDT up reply actions
another great post
I especially liked the analogy of how a three-team team trade was made into a two-team trade.
So, let’s say that opportunity happened to arise again. I’d say these are the criteria:
*You want to acquire a hitter with a healthy track record, because it’d be a shame to acquire a pitcher for 3 prospects and then have them get hurt for the entire year you’re “renting” them.
*You want the hitter to be good, in the final year of his deal. Also, he has to be paid well, but not absurdly below the level of his contract, otherwise he’s a difficult asset to spin off at mid-season, anyway (which is, as you suggest and for the purpose of this exercise, our goal).
*You want the team he plays for to be small-to-mid market, looking to shed some payroll, and with depth at that position the star plays, so that trading him away is logical for them.
Here’s what you come up with if such a deal were to happen in this upcoming offseason:
*Carl Crawford. Makes $10M next year in a final option year on his Rays deal before free agency. The Rays have to pick up this option, because Crawford is far more valuable than $10M, and thus even if they can’t afford him, they can easily trade him for “slower depreciating assets” (designatedforassignment, p. 89). But the Rays are like the A’s – they have to perpetually get cheaper. They can’t just allow themselves to get old (re expensive). They can use that $10M elsewhere on their roster and fill Crawford’s hole internally (Jennings? Too aggressive of a promotion?), or with a cheap FA platoon, as they are wont to do.
J.J. Hardy. Very risky, I know. This is like a Kenny Williams, “My endowment is larger than yours” kind of move. Hardy has hit very poorly this year but has still been one of the top two defensive defensive shortstops in baseball. But he’ll probably get a raise from his current $4.5 million salary to around $6 million in arbitration this year. And the Brewers already have Alcides Escobar waiting in the wings. Like the Rays, Milwaukee has other holes to fill and could use that $6 million elsewhere on the diamond.
Those are two of the best five position-player free agents in the FA class of 2011 (players with one year of service time left after this season; this year’s upcoming FA class is the class of ‘10). We can safely assume Derek Jeter and Victor Martinez aren’t going anywhere via trade now, and I highly doubt the Twins will trade Joe Mauer, despite the very real risk that they lose him for only two draft picks when the Red Sox and/or Yankees offer him $200M that offseason.
So, we’re left with Crawford and Hardy. Both fill important holes on the 2010 A’s team – left field and shortstop – and both would be attractive trade candidates in a midseason trade, since they’d carry the titles of “best available outfielder” and “best available middle infielder” at the trade deadline.
AN, would you persue either of those guys this offseason? Personally, I feel like ‘10 isn’t any more likely to be a contention year that ’09, so I would only acquire those one of those guys with the intention of spinning them off mid-season like Holliday.
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Aug 10, 2009 6:49 AM PDT up reply actions
I've been thinking a lot about both Crawford & Hardy.
I would be open to acquiring either or both. Not sure what it would take to get either, but I’m thinking the A’s could put together some type of package involving Wuertz, Buck/Sweeney/Patterson/Hairston and maybe Eveland to at least pique the interest of the Rays and/or Brewers.
What I like about both players is that they play really great defense. Especially in Hardy’s case, his presence would be really valuable, given the groundballing tendencies of Cahill/Mazzaro and Anderson (to a degree). His great range could also offset the (not-so-great) range of Brett Wallace, should he make the team as a 3rd baseman next season.
I'm never gonna do it without the fez on!
The biggest play on this stratigy would to get Halladay from Toronto
by giving up the 4-5 players Toronto wants and we decide we can live without and then flip him for a Haren haul of his own next year for the guys BB wants. I’m not saying this will ever happen or that it would even be a good idea taken too that extreme.
It would just be interesting to see what players Toronto would ask for. Also interesting to think of what BB thinks he could get back for a Halladay and what teams farm system he would target.
I think BB has a more accurate evaluation of everyone’s farm system and of our own than a lot of other teams because he is always making big trades. Just by discussing a Halladay trade with Toronto we find out who they think our best players are.
"Gratuitous gesticulating together sounds even better"
if Toronto's demands
add up to players that are expendable for the A’s, then Toronto failed very badly
Interesting...
My intuition says that there will continue to be a chasm between what Ricciardi is asking for in return for Halladay, and what teams are willing to give up. He didn’t get offered a package that he deemed worthy at the deadline this year, and his dubious public comments that “there may be better offers in the offseason, or next deadline,” (paraphrasing) baffled me. Logically, Halladay’s value will only go down as the clock ticks toward FA for him. Other teams know this. I can’t forsee how offers could possibly get better for him than they were from Boston, etc. already.
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Aug 10, 2009 10:01 PM PDT up reply actions
The Phillies offer was very good
Im not a big fan of their pitchers but Dominic Brown and Michael Taylor are legit bats. I was surprised the Indians decided to get hosed like they did but the Phillies clearly came out a head in the Cliff Lee trade.
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 11, 2009 2:31 AM PDT up reply actions
In the wake of J.J. Hardy's demotion...
I just thought I’d update my above post to note that he won’t be an FA until after the 2011 season if he stays down in the minors for three weeks here at the end of the AAA season.
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Aug 12, 2009 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions
I loved
The Rays have to pick up this option, because Crawford is far more valuable than $10M, and thus even if they can’t afford him, they can easily trade him for "slower depreciating assets" (designatedforassignment, p. 89).
Made me chuckle a lot.
I would avoid Crawford as he relies on speed for a significant amount of his offensive value, which can lead to down seasons for things like pulled hammies and other nicks. $10m salary will also be a deterrent to a trade in what I think will be an equally to even more restrictive environment for trades with large financial implications.
I am all for Hardy however, since his defense and positional adjustment will keep him a 2 WAR player even if his bat stays in a funk which I think that it will.
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 12, 2009 4:17 PM PDT up reply actions
I gotta quote and cite my sources :)
Yeah, I agree with you wholeheartedly on Crawford.
Great fanpost by the way – I appreciate all the time you put in, and I’ve really enjoyed coming back to this and reading a great discussion from tons of different contributors. Look how long and substantive this fanpost and the ensuing comments are.
I also know from experience (I started being involved in AN four years ago, when I was 23 like yourself) that when you’ve put TONS of hours into one of these, for free, and you put yourself out there a bit and make yourself vulnerable, and someone’s only reply to you is about your grammar or a minor clerical error in your piece, it can make you furious…but I think I’ve learned the hard way that it’s best to just try to ignore those comments and appreciate those praising your work – which many, many people have done!
I “featured” this post so it should appear in the right sidebar permanently (below fanshots, under “featured stories”); it’s not showing up right now, but maybe it takes a few hours for that to happen.
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Aug 12, 2009 4:32 PM PDT up reply actions
Thanks that means a lot.
Though I was hoping to see grover around these parts, a lot of the people yourself included that I respect seem to have been attracted to the posts in the series, which gives me a lot of pride.
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 12, 2009 5:00 PM PDT up reply actions
3 moves ahead?
I think most everyone here and there were certainly some professional journalists who figured that the Holliday trade back in the off-season was intentionally for this year’s trade deadline fodder.
still Swish Fan #1.
Ya -3 moves ahead. How many other GM's have tried this type of turn-around trade before?
I didn’t say it wasn’t sniffed out after It happened, after a lot of people thought hard about it.
I’m saying it was a visionary complex double-multiple player trade pulled off over a half years time. I’m not sure any other GM has the vision, the aptitude and the balls to have tried it, let alone pull it off.
If indeed this was exactly his plan from the get go, which seems to be the case, he was looking three moves ahead. When the other GM’s are looking one or two moves ahead on a trade, and then BB comes out with a super complex trade that nets him the best player traded at the deadline with the bonus of it being a scarce prospect position, that’s impressive.
Maybe another trade like this has been pulled off before by another GM, I just can’t think of one off the top of my head. If it is the first, BB has just created a whole new category of intricate trades that will probably be emulated in the future, even if it will be rare.
"Gratuitous gesticulating together sounds even better"
I think you guys are going way overboard with all this
“visionary genius” stuff. Yes, I’m sure that when Beane traded for Holliday he was aware that he might swap him back out again for a good package, but it’s not like this is some brilliant new technique. I don’t think it was Plan A either.
I’m sure the first choice was that we’d be a contending team and Holliday would be helping in that regard. But realistically that was a bit of a long shot, so the possibility of trading Holliday at the deadline for a collection of prospects roughly equal to what he gave up (and possibly better suited to our needs) eliminated most of the downside so that the move wasn’t a waste if the team did tank.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
if 'realistically that was a bit of a long shot" can or should not be plan A
and if losing Holliday for nothing at the end of the year , can or should not be plan A. Then trading him at the deadline was always plan A and the possibility of contending was always plan B. I may be wrong, but it’s the thing that makes the most sense to me.
"Gratuitous gesticulating together sounds even better"
I'm not sure I follow your reasoning.
If I meet a hot girl and figure I may as well ask her out because even though I think it’s 80% likely she’ll say no, there’s still no significant downside to being rejected, does that mean that being rejected is my “plan A”?
Maybe we just differ in how we use the term. To me “plan A” is what you’re aiming for, not what you consider most likely.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
interesting analogy...took me a few reads...see if you can follow this...this is not ment to be sexist in any way but you brought up dating analogys..
its because your being rejected by the hot one that you create plan A.
The most likely is settling for a plainer girl, or plan B.
The least likely is the possibility’s of 1) having no girl or 2) the plainer girl unexpectedly ends up hotter than the hot girl, or plan C.
bare with me here your going to have to read this slowly a few times. this might be the most convoluted analogy I have ever attempted.
I’m going to use a dating analogy then tie it in with the player analogy to hopefully tie it all together.
Dating Analogy
1) You had a hot Brunette girl on your mind that goes out with a Tall Fireman. Your best chance of hooking up would be if you could get the Fireman out of the picture. But He knew she was hot and was not going to let her go. And she couldn’t or wouldn’t leave him. You were rejected time and again.
2) You found out the fireman has a weakness for Tall Blonds. You have a Red-head friend who’s best friend is a tall blond. You really like them both and think you could date either of them if you got around to asking them out but really prefer Brunettes.
You can never know about these things for sure but you think If the Brunette won’t date you the Blond still will. But You can only date the Red -Head if you don’t ask the Blond out. . By dating the Brunette you will ruin any chance of dating either one of them.
3) The Red-Head, at your suggestion, hooks up her Blond best friend with the Fireman. He dumps the Brunette pining for the Blond, you swoop in and ask out the Brunette. The Red-Head was expecting to get asked out. The Blond would still accept being asked out. You are going to ask out the Blond if the Brunette still says no.
But the Brunette says yes and is now your girlfriend for 5 years. And you have ruined any chance of dating the others.
.
.
.
.
Ok now I will flip it and use the Hair Colors as players analogy’s
.
.
.
recap: you couldn’t get the Brunette(Wallace) which you wanted more than any other Brunette(3rd/SS prospect). You manipulated a resource you would never get back: the Red-Head (Street, Cargo, Smith)) to use another resource you may never be compatible with: the Blond (Holliday) so that you could get the Brunette you always wanted( Wallace).
Ok now what I think plan A, B, and C were.
We both agree plan A is what your aiming for
what I don’t think we agree on is that I think we were aiming for the Best 3rd/SS prospect available when we traded for Holliday, and that was plan A
when we drafted a SS plan A became we were aiming for the best 3rd available, but would settle for a SS. Again aiming for the Brunette(Wallace) is plan A. but alot of shit could go wrong with your plan to get her. It’s very complicated with a lot that can go wrong. You have to think well ahead so you are sure its worth it if shit goes wrong.
That’s were we get plan B. I think Plan B was the most likely. trading him (Holliday) for another Blond or at worst a Red-head.
Plan C- the outside possibility’s, has the worst outcome and the best outcome in it.
Plan C ( worst outcome)-giving up on (Street etc)the Red-head, and ending up single (losing Holliday for nothing/draft picks) because we keep him for a run and missed the playoffs. This was not worth the gamble if it was a likely outcome.
Plan C (The best outcome) was always the outside chance that getting the Blond (Holiday gets us to the playoffs) would be better than getting the Brunette (Wallace) and well worth losing the red-head (street etc).
If you didn’t have the balls to go for what you wanted, you would settle for the Red-Head (Street etc) and not try anything with the blond at all.
The downside to being rejected is not getting a scarce position prospect or any experienced players at all, and was more of a plan C if plan B didn’t work after A didn’t work.
"Gratuitous gesticulating together sounds even better"
Yikes, now I'm sorry I brought it up.
I used that analogy for DFA, in light of his sig line, which I confess I never really cared for.
All I’m really saying is that the most desired goal is still plan A, regardless of whether it’s unlikely.
Plan A was to put up a winning team. Getting a player like Holliday slightly increases the likelihood of that. But since it’s still not very likely, the benefit would not justify the cost. But since there’s a very good chance of recouping the cost anyway, the benefit does justify the reduced net cost.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
Long post, interesting take, disagree with some of it.
Like I said I was glad that we only gave up what we did for Holliday, and thought the asking price would have been higher. That being said, Cargon’s ceiling is higher than Hairston’s since he would be about the same wOBA with 10 FRAA attached as well as being under control for longer and for less money.
You are also significantly undervaluing Street’s trade value as Sherril brought a good 3b prospect to the Oriels, so the who thing might not have even been needed and we could have kept Cargon.
Being the best prospect being traded around the deadline has nothing to do with how good a player is. If the only trade that happened was a major leaguer for Paul DePodesta’s laptop, wouldn’t the laptop also be the best prospect traded at the deadline?
Also a starting pitcher is far far more likely to have a market at the trade deadline since there are more of them and 5th starters always suck and can be upgraded.
Like I said I liked the process but I think that Holliday should have reasonably been expected to hold value worse than other assets that could have been acquired.
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 12, 2009 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions
This is only true in a very limited sense
Essentially the first Holliday trade netted us $5.6 million in value for our attempt at contention for which we gave up $42.3 million. That is a bad trade.
If, for example, the extra WAR (and Holliday was our best player when here) put us into the playoffs it’s worth a lot more than WAR – Salary.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Well considering the value of playoffs is only $40m
trading $42m for it doesn’t seem like a good idea.
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 10, 2009 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions
just to make sure
you are talking about value of the playoffs to the ownership, right? I have no problem with them working against their financial self-interest to put a good team on the field.
And of course, since we’re talking about the Oakland A’s who couldn’t put butts in the seats during their run early this decade, the value of making the playoff is probably much less than $40M.
Says who?
The value of the playoffs (in a pure bottom-line econ sense) would seem to vary wildly from franchise to franchise.
Also, I don’t get the sense that owning a baseball team is the best investment available to the uber-wealthy so I assume many are (at least partly) motivated by winning. Steinbrenner in his glory days, for example, would surely have paid $41 million 2009 dollars to guarantee he made the playoffs.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Well, hello, here's another suspicious-looking valuation
to be skeptical of. No links this time, so tell me: How do you figure $40m as the value of the playoffs? Is that expected earnings from getting there? How much it costs to buy a spot?
I assume you didn’t just pull a number out of your butt, so tell me: What’s your reasoning here?
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
Finally found that article.
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 11, 2009 8:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Looks like you forgot to paste the URL in the box.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
Lets try that again
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 12, 2009 5:17 PM PDT up reply actions
Well, that doesn't tell us much.
Baseball Prospectus 2008 calculates the value of reaching the playoffs as $40 million.
OK, but how? Does anyone have the book?
As you might guess, I’m very skeptical of this. I mean, I don’t doubt they did a calculation, but what does it really measure?
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
Yeah I don't have it
but I think they looked at attendance bump over the next three years merch sales and ticket sales for the games. I don’t know, but I do know its pretty widely cited.
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 13, 2009 8:44 AM PDT up reply actions
But surely the number
varies from team to team, so to apply it to a team individually is very crude.
And surely there is monetary value to each win along the way regardless of the playoffs, and there is monetary value for a team being in a reasonably close pennant race at all even in if they ultimately lose that race.
I realize that the $40 million number doesn’t seek to deny those, but simply chooses to measure something else, but when it is cited in isolation, as in the article you referenced, it reinforces the popular fallacy that only the playoffs are meaningful and any season which does not end in playoffs is meaningless.
I think there are a lot of group-think subjective biases in the sabermetric community which are widely reflected not in the measurements themselves, but in what the community chooses to measure and look at.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
This really makes me wonder what kind of numbers would Holliday have put up
if Mark Mcgwire didn’t kill his swing, and subsequently what kind of value Holliday would have had. That being said, I like the end result of the process, but I think Beane got lucky to get what he did, and I think it could have ended poorly for the A’s.
A big part of trading for Holliday was the possibility of contention in 09. Trading what we did was a risky maneuver that could have seriously jeopardized our future. The Holliday trade could have been a good one, if moves towards contention were made before that Holliday deal, such as signing a Furcal or a Lowe. There are too many unknowns in the world of free agents and tradings to take a risk, such as trading for Holliday, before establishing a solid team.
"True fact: In a global thermonuclear war, the only human who would survive would be David Eckstein" -PT
OK-- give dfa an A for effort
But really it can be boiled down into one simple calculation, once you get beyond the gamble that the A’s would contend this year.
Carlos Gonzalez or Brett Wallace going forward?
Smith’s toast. Street’s at an incredibly fungible position (see Ziegler, Brad; Bailey, Andrew; possibly Devine, Joey— and for that matter Isringhausen, Jason). We don’t know yet what the other two former Redbird prospects will bring.
I would argue that Beane traded a potentially good, not great, major leaguer at a critical defensive position— who is finally starting to produce at the major league level these past few weeks for a potentially great, not good, major league hitter at either a not so critical defensive position or who may challenged at the more important spot. I’d make that move every time.
It might be worth a mention that the Cleveland Indians had a 265-153 record— that’s a .634 winning percentage— over a 3 year period (one was the strike shortened 1994 season) with Jim Thome playing third base.
I have serious problems with the entirety of your analysis
Street has be one of the top 15 relievers in all of baseball this year, and like I showed, Street would have been worth two B level prospects on his own. For example, if we kept Street the Dodgers might have trade Josh Bell and Steve Johnson. Smith having arm problems this year doesn’t prevent him from being valuable in the future, though the extent of that value is limited.
Furthermore, I would argue that in a deal of Gonzalez and Wallace you should take Gonzalez. Brett Wallace is a 1rst baseman, so even before defense Wallace has to produce 15 runs with his bat more than Gonzalez thats a .025 wOBA increase over 600 PAs. If Gonzalez is a league average hitter, that means that Wallace will have to produce a wOBA of .355 just to be even. Thats right he has to be the 72nd best hitter in the bigs to just break even with Gonzalez. WIth the likely 5 FRAA difference in defense even at 1b, Wallace is going to have to be the 62nd best hitter in the MLB just to break even.
And the other 132 other players on those teams had nothing to do with the Indians record, its all about Jim Thome’s ability to play the hot corner.
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 10, 2009 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions
where does the attitude come from??
Serious problems??
I said the closer position is “fungible”. meaning that the cream can come from anywhere.
Relievers Expected Runs— 2009 Street ranks 43rd
Relievers VORP— 2009 Street ranks 26th
Not top 15. Not bad. But not top 15. He hasn’t been a top notch relief pitcher in 3 years. And Bailey— 4th and 1st. Put your hands around those numbers. He just may be the best relief pitcher in baseball this year, and we’re paying him how much now?? As opposed to Street? And with Devine still in the viewfinder, the bullpen can only improve.
As to Wallace v. Gonzalez, I know what you argue. But replacement value and overall batting order/combination matters too. I don’t think a Davis-Sweeney combo will be much different than Gonzalez— maybe a little worse, but not much. But Wallace could easily be the best hitter on this team in a year or two— and along with the likes of Carter, Cardenas and Hairston, could provide the first real scary middle of the order around here since 2006. So I choose to disagree with you.
I really hope Bailey keeps it up next season
because Devine is far from a sure thing coming off of that surgery
Hes actually 12th when you look at Fangraphs' WAR.
If you own a diamond mine, the diamond ring that you have may be fungible to you since it is easy to replace, however that doesn’t mean that it is fungible to everyone else or that its market value is the same to you. You have not rebutted my point about market value, in that Street would have had even more market value than his production, about $12m. Just because he isn’t very valuable to me doesn’t mean that I should throw him away if he wasn’t valuable to anyone else.
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 10, 2009 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions
and he was valuable enough to land Holliday
who was valuable enough to land Wallace.
Why don’t you ask it another way— would the Cardinals have traded Wallace and the others for Gonzalez, Street and Smith? of course not. And I suspect that that same package couldn’t have landed almost every other team’s top prospect, either. Truth is Beane flipped this thing brilliantly, no matter how you try to overanalyze it.
I would in an instant trade Wallace Mortenson and Peterson for Street Gonzalez and Smith
Cargon > or at worse = Wallace
Street >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Peterson
Smith = Mortenson
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 10, 2009 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions
i know you'd do it....
but 95% of the people who are paid to make these decisions would not. Either you’re in the wrong line of work or they’re all stupid.
95%.
Really?
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Aug 10, 2009 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions
well 1 or 2 might do it
that’s 3-7%— so 95% is about right.
Where do you get that crock of shit?
Show me where anyone has done a survey that shows that 95% of people “paid to make these decisions” disagree with me.
If you want to have a civil discussion bring some evidence, if you want to call me stupid go fuck off, I don’t care if i get the strike.
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 10, 2009 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions
i'm going to be civil here
And seriously please accept this in a charitable spirit, because that’s how it’s given. I read your entire article. I can comprehend your analysis— i.e, I’m not stupid. I’m glad you’re around shaking up the mix— as i said, i gave you an A for effort and I meant it.
But in my humble opinion, based on a lot of years watching this sport and the way its decision-makers act, i seriously doubt that the vast majority of baseball general managers— whether the number is 80, 100 or 95 percent is immaterial— i obviously used the 95% number for effect— would make that deal. They would go for the much higher upside of Wallace along with whatever Mortensen and Peterson would bring every time. I don’t need a “survey”— as if it could ever exist— or “evidence”. You have a point of view, fine. All I’m saying is that it is not the majority view, or close to it. And of course you might be right— no one’s denying that.
You're wrong
Wallace and Cargon both have tons of potential.
Street is an established closer (and if there’s one thing most teams overvalue, it’s closers).
With the following change, however, we can put this part of the thread to bed:
All I’m saying is that it is notthe majoritymy view, or close to it.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
the AN poll is overwhelming. 90% Success or Push. 10% failure
DFA had a good idea, made a good argument and put the time and effort in it to present it well. That’s why its got double digit rec’s which rarely happens. Being a good writer means looking at things at different angles and refuting your own pro’s with cons to give the whole picture.
It looks like he unintentionally did a better job with the con’s as I don’t think that same poll is anywhere close to 90% before the article. I think the thing that really sold me on it being a success, (not that I didn’t already think that) was that the Cardinals thought they were giving up more value than they were receiving and Tony La Russa thought it was the wrong move but didn’t care.
Knowing the team you just trading with immediately admitted they thought it was the wrong move makes me think it was unequivocally and intuitively the right move for the A’s to have tried and that they defiantly pulled off what was intended.
I would be interested in DFA writing a pro-trade post on the Holiday trade were he expands and researches all the best reasons it was a good move. Playing the devil’s advocate on his own post may somehow make me inadvertently see why it was not a good trade and vote the other way. I doubt it, but it would be interesting.
"Gratuitous gesticulating together sounds even better"
A AN poll really has no barring on the success of the analysis
Reading my post there is a very logical way to agree with me and still vote for a push, in that you could believe that the standard deviation for a loss projection is gives a confidence to declare that a $2m verdict either a success or a failure. Additionally many people like MROD voted on their own criteria. Thats how it goes.
As for the LaRussa part, you can win the second part of the trade and still lose overall, which was generally my point. If the Cardinals didn’t pull the trigger we would have been stuck with two draft picks since no one else was really even close to being seriously involved. The A’s did get a lot of value out of the Cards, though Im not high on what they did get compared to other prospects which is what I pointed out. Personally I like Cargon more than Wallace but I can see how that is a wash. I just don’t see how logically anyone can suggest that Street and Smith are worth less than Mortenson and Peterson. Street alone is worth more than both of those players.
I didn’t come here to write a Beane rocks post or a Beane sucks post. I detailed every part of this trade and came up with an evaluation based on the research I have done. I liked the vast majority of the process except for the Holliday vehicle for holding value.
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 12, 2009 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions
and as for Thome
you made the expected facile reply. Point is and was that the Indians chose to put one of their two or three best hitters at a position where he was substandard defensively because THE OFFENSE WAS WORTH IT. Eventually they moved him to first, as the As; might with Wallace when Cardenas or someone else is ready to occupy third. And when they believe him to be the best option at first.
Then you should have made the point that you just did rather that dragging Thome into it.
If you instead argued that it is more advantageous to the A’s to keep Wallace at third because, while his defense is bad it doesn’t make up for the 15 run positional difference that would be an arguement I would tend to agree with except that I think that while there is an absolute advantage to keeping him there, there isn’t a comparative advantage from keeping him there. I think Wallace’s defense will be in between -10 and -15 FRAA making the move to 1b in his first two years a push. Basically hell have to hit like a first baseman because he fields like one no matter on what side of the diamond he is on.
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 10, 2009 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions
but can Carter, Barton or Everidge play 3rd?
Of course not. Each decision is interrelated. The way they construct the lineup is interrelated. They don’t yet have a viable option at 3B, and they really like Wallace’s bat. The difference you should have noted is a simple one— is the team better with Carlos Gonzalez in center and, say, Bobby Crosby at 3rd— or with Rajai Davis/Ryan Sweeney in CF and Brett Wallace at 3rd?? And in 2 years— if Cardenas is ready to play 3B at the major league level— better with both Wallace and Carter in the lineup, along with Cardenas; or only Carter plus Cust, Doolittle, Buck, whomever.
Maybe Wallace will be a bust— it’s all risk management and potential. But he has the chance to be a “great” hitter— as I said from the start— as Thome became, or Pedro Guerrero, or Albert Pujols, or a whole host of guys without a strong defensive reputation coming into the bigs. I’m gambling on that rather than the more modest skill set of Cargon.
CarGon is posting a .348 wOBA this year.
I showed in an earlier post that he’s improved drastically in nearly every facet of his game. Combine this + his great defense and he’s already on his way to being a very very good player. Wallace has a long way to go before he can catch up to him.
And this is the first time someone’s ever mentioned “modest skill set” in the same sentence as CarGon.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Aug 10, 2009 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions
well...
1HR per 75 AB
and, until very recently, very little plate discipline. He had better hit 320 and be a Gold Glove to make up for those skill set deficiencies.
like I said, he has a chance to be a good major league player. I never said he didn’t. Wallace could be a great major league hitter. Therein is the question and you takes you chances. i go with the smack.
Do you not read?
He can be a very good player only by being a league average hitter. Like a 3.5 WAR player.
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 10, 2009 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions
OK. I can read
1) the jury is decidedly out on whether he will be a league average hitter; and 2) I think more sample size is necessary before we get a firm handle on exactly what his defensive value is.
Well with his career average walk rate of 6%...
he will have a .063 ISOd in 600 PAs. Which means that if he hits .280 he will still have a .340 OBA which is good.
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 10, 2009 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions
This is a fair point
If it doesn’t matter to Wallace’s WAR whether he’s at first or third, and the A’s have better Non-Wallace 1B than 3B, it’s a no brainer to play Wallace at 3B
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Adrian Cardenas says HI
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 10, 2009 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions
First off, you missed an if
Second, we don’t yet know who will end up making the team when. Players are likely to be ready at different times, and Cardenas is hardly tearing up AAA right now.
My point is that your analysis says Wallace’s WAR is the same in either spot. For the A’s, though, that does not mean it doesn’t matter where he plays.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
My bad.
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 10, 2009 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions
This is not settled
Brett Wallace is a 1rst baseman
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Show me scouting reports that think he can hack it.
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 10, 2009 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions
Here are some
I think that Wallace does have the feet to play third base. He’s much more nimble than you would think by looking at him, and he’s got the quickness and reflexes to play the hot corner. His hands are above average, and while he has awkward throwing mechanics, dropping down to throw, his arm appears strong enough to make the plays.
Now show me the scouting reports that think he will never ever be able to play third base.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
I don't think those count
One is the Cards scouting director, who has an incentive to boost Wallace’s value. Another guy is just some random and the Futureredbirds says his feet are fine at third but later in the article says his range is not sufficient.
Cards/A’s swap: Wallace is a 1B -only, but he’s nearly ready and an on-base machine with middle-range power. Could get a shot soon.
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 10, 2009 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Out of curiosity, DFA what makes you think Chris Carter is a better prospect that Brett Wallace?
From your tone on things (and I could be perfectly wrong here), you seem to be pretty high on Carter and rather low on Wallace, when IMO, arguments can made that Wallace is a better prospect than Carter.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Aug 10, 2009 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions
Light tower power, walk rate, and the ability to play the OF.
To a certain extent I think that Wallace was SNTS. Hes actually been a below average hitter in AAA this year producing -1.7 BRAA All of which make me inclined to believe that Carter is a better prospect, since he put up better numbers in AA than Wallace did and Im not giving Wallace credit for not hitting in a harder league. If Wallace plays 1b because hes Edwin Encarnacion at 3b and Carter is in RF. I actually think that Donaldson is probably as good of a prospect as Wallace, since there is a chance that he can stick at C and would be anywhere from 10-15 runs above Wallace defensively even if he is forced to move to third base. Donaldson put up pretty much the same wOBA that Wallace did when he was in AA.
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 10, 2009 3:40 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm confused by this
Wallace only played 45 games in AA.
Basically, at the same age, Wallace is playing a level higher and with less gaudy numbers than Carter. As to Donaldson, Baseball cube doesn’t do wOBA, but I don’t see how a .275/.396/.423 translates roughly the same as the combination of .367/.456/.653 and .281/.403/.438 since the weaker segment is strictly better. Also, the SSS point about Wallace in AA still applies.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
I think there's some flaws about Carter and some positives about Wallace that you're ignoring.
Outside of a few recent games, Carter has hardly been an regular in the outfield. To automatically chalk him up as a future MLB caliber right fielder (as what you’re implying) is pretty heavy bias on your part. Similarly, many scouting reports and publications have said that Wallace could stick as an average 3B for a while, though he’s a 1B long term. But with Carter, he maybe can be an average 1B, with a large possibility that he’ll end up at DH. But you ignored this.
Secondly, Wallace has been moved extremely quickly since he was drafted, having hardly the amount of time Carter has had to adjust to his leagues. Why is Wallace being moved so fast and yet Carter is a level a year player? Could part of it be because Wallace simply has less holes as a hitter than Carter? And shouldn’t Wallace get credit for that?
And lastly, I don’t really understand the whole Donaldson = Wallace thing. Donaldson is a year older, has played more games in AA than Wallace ever had, put up lesser numbers, and has plenty of questions about whether or not he could stick at catcher in the future. Wallace isn’t a case of SNTS (this isn’t Tommy Everidge we’re talking about); there’s legit reason to be hyped about him. There’s a reason why he’s rated as one of the best hitters/top prospects in the minors.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Aug 10, 2009 4:16 PM PDT up reply actions
Im don't think that I am ignoring them
Carter has the skills necessary to be a big league RFer, since he has average to slightly above average speed and a strong arm. That means that he needs to learn how to read balls and take good routes which shouldn’t be that hard and can be improved with experience. Wallace’s problems at third are not fixable assuming that he has been on rigorous training regimen to improve his range since he was in pro ball and will never get any better than he is right now.
I think Carters’ walk rate and power make him a better, though more risky prospect.
The Donaldson/Wallace thing is fairly simple. This year in AA Wallace had a .390 wOBA and Donaldson has a .381. If Wallace is a first baseman he is 25 Runs less valuable by position than Donaldson if Donaldson is behind the plate. Assuming that Wallace is a league average 1bman and that Donaldson is -5 to -10 runs defensively (which is a guesstimation since measuring the value of catching defense is so sketch right now) that means that Wallace has to have a .029 wOBA advantage to have the same WAR. If Donaldson is moved to third and is a league average 3bman (reports of his defense aren’t bad at 3b like they are behind the plate) that still holds true, since the positional adjustment is a 15 run difference but you lose none of that value from poor defense. Now if Wallace stays at 3b most of that value is still up held if Wallace plays -10 D which cancels out Donaldson’s -10 behind the dish which leaves a 10 run positional difference which requires a .019 wOBA advantage for Wallace to be an equal player. Now if both play third and Wallace puts up -10 FRAA and Donaldson plays average D that same 10 run difference exists. Now how confident are you that Wallace will hit that much better than Donaldson?
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 11, 2009 5:21 PM PDT up reply actions
You and your SSS
If you want to make a comparison of AA time (which is going to be verrrrrry imprecise anyway because, as I mentioned above, Wallace barely played there) it is somewhere between silly and intentionally misleading to cut out part of his AA time where he played really well.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Dude, you're usually pretty good with objective analysis but your biases are clearly evident here.
Which I wholeheartedly believe is fine. With minor league prospects, everyone’s got their favorites and non-favorites.
Carter has the skills necessary to be a big league RFer, since he has average to slightly above average speed and a strong arm. That means that he needs to learn how to read balls and take good routes which shouldn’t be that hard and can be improved with experience. Wallace’s problems at third are not fixable assuming that he has been on rigorous training regimen to improve his range since he was in pro ball and will never get any better than he is right now.
Reading balls and taking good routes is pretty much the essence of being a good outfielder and is absolutely not a skill easily learned, even for players who have always been outfielders. You can’t just brush off Carter’s issues like that, and make this problem (learning a new position he’s had, what, 10 games experience at?) seem like a minor issue. Similarly, you can’t just brush Wallace off as having no chance at third, especially while not acknowledging his skills he has there: The reports I’ve read all indicate that while range may be a potential issue, he still has good hands and reactions, and makes the plays he gets to. Can you, without a doubt, determine that he can’t become Pablo Sandoval (a guy who was basically given no chance at all of being a third baseman) at third?
And I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Chris Carter’s greatest likelihood right now is DH. Wallace, at least, is expected to have some position on the field. If Carter shows adequate skill in the outfield next year (if the A’s do in fact decide to play him there) then I’ll reevaluate.
I think Carters’ walk rate and power make him a better, though more risky prospect
And Wallace doesn’t have those skills? Of course, he hasn’t shown that yet relative to Carter’s performance. But once again, you have to account for the fact that Wallace has been moved extremely quickly through the levels since he was drafted, while Carter has had far more time to adjust to each different level and has had much more minor league experience overall. Plus, scouting reports on Wallace’s hitting all state that he will be proliferate in these two skills.
With Donaldson, as nevermoor said, you’re still basing a lot of conclusions on small sample size. I mean c’mon, this year Wallace has had only 32 games at AA while Donaldson has had over 100. At least take into account Wallace’s games there last year too (super SSS, but he did really well then). And Donaldson has played a grand total of 15 games at third this season (18 for his career). How valid would any report be about his defense at third?
Like with Carter, you seem to be assuming everything will break right for Donaldson, while everything will break wrong for Wallace. That’s my primary issue.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Aug 12, 2009 12:04 AM PDT up reply actions
Well I do have my biases but I think they will be borne out
My point is that Carter has the physical tools necessary to be a good RFer and what I read from when he was splitting time with Doolittle out there was that he didn’t look bad. Wallace does not have the physical tools to play third long term, because of a lack of range though if he gets to it, he fields it, and his footwork and arm aren’t terrible.
I think Carter will be a better hitter than Wallace. With the exception of 13 Games a AA ball last year Carter has had a higher ISO than Wallace at EVERY LEVEL OF PLAY. Wallace’s walk rate is far from elite and will require that he hit for good average to be a high OBA player. Carter can hit 260 and still be a 360 OBA guy. Wallace for all his hype has been a below average hitter in AAA this year.
As for Donaldson, I would readily submit that Wallace will be a superior hitter. However, I don’t think he will necessarily be THAT much better. I know he only played a handful of games at third this year and last year during the season, though he played third in the AFL as well, but he played 3rd for most of his time in college and had good defensive reports. I really believe that these explanations are far from everything breaking Donaldson’s way and still proves my point.
Now if Wallace stays at 3b most of that value is still up held if Wallace plays -10 D which cancels out Donaldson’s -10 behind the dish which leaves a 10 run positional difference which requires a .019 wOBA advantage for Wallace to be an equal player. Now if both play third and Wallace puts up -10 FRAA and Donaldson plays average D that same 10 run difference exists. Now how confident are you that Wallace will hit that much better than Donaldson?
Now I still had Wallace as my #2 A’s prospect but the difference between him and my #3 Donaldson is razor thin.
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 12, 2009 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions
For the record, I think that Carter is a better prospect than Wallace too.
But I can also see reasonable arguments for Wallace being the better prospect.
At this point, I think we’re both repeating ourselves here. You say that Carter has had better numbers than Wallace which is perfectly true. But as I’ve said repeatedly, I think the fact that Wallace has had been moved very quickly through every level he’s been in, his relative lack of minor league experience compared to Carter, and his overall less riskiness (but just as much potential) as Carter has to account for something. How do you think Carter would’ve performed if he was rushed through 40 or so games each in A, AA, and AAA over the span of two years as Wallace had been? It’s hard to measure and compare this tangibly so we’ll see how they both turn out in the majors.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Aug 12, 2009 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions
I think if Carter was rushed he would have been producing poor numbers...
I suspect that if Wallace was in AA he would be hitting a lot better than he is now. I think long term that he is going to be a better hitter. Carters MLE’s are about 100pts better right now which is a fairly ok way to make the judgement.
I think that Wallace will end up being around league average at 1b which means that Carter needs to hit 5 runs better than him to be more valuable if he plays DH. I think he can do that.
If you would have asked me last year my answer would have been in reverse.
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 12, 2009 6:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Fwiw
His coaches have always said he can do it. My sense is that people like Goldstien (especially for blurbs like that) just see large body and stop there.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
His coaches both at ASU and in the Cards and A's system have an interest in saying he can.
Especially at ASU where you don’t want to hurt your recruiting class by being the team that bashes its own players.
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 10, 2009 3:44 PM PDT up reply actions
Ok
He’s also actually playing 3b isn’t he?
One twitter from BP can’t change that.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Look Im just suggesting that biased sources aren't the answer
I think it is unfair to submit that BA/BP/Sickles are all lazy and yet not acknowledge that his coaches have a very very vested interest in saying that he could play 3b.
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 10, 2009 6:25 PM PDT up reply actions
not the complete answer no but a valuable part of it
It can’t be completely ignored because it came from the team either. discount the teams answers on his D 25-50% because of the potential bias but give them back 25% of it in credibility by not switching his position.
Coaches have a more vested interest in seeing their team win and a lot actually have some integrity and will not bald face lie about a players abilitys, so his D can’t be that much BS. You want to discount coaches views 100% which is just as bad as discounting scout blurbs 100% by assuming they were lazy.
"Gratuitous gesticulating together sounds even better"
A+ Post
This is the best post and dialogue I have read all year. Thanks for the great insight and opinions. Bonus points for the research! This is why I check AN the first thing every morning. :)
Major props to "Designated for Assignment"
What a well written and researched post. The comments, for the most part, have risen to the standard of the original post…..very interesting discussion.
Nice Post
I voted success but if all of the players received by the A’s are a bust then you would have to call it a failure. Only time will tell.
You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}
+/- EV is useless for projection
Expected value is driven by the law of large numbers. In projecting future value, we’re not dealing with anything close to a sample large enough for precision. Victor Wang looked at ten BA prospect lists quartered up, and graded out values by WSAB. That’s right, ten.
There would be problems with using a thousand lists, considering the variables. There’s never been a Brett Wallace before. An open ended straight draw on the flop is always an open ended straight draw. Eight cards left in the deck can make the straight. It never varies. That’s why inevitably, inexorably over thousands and thousands of identical samples, an open ended straight draw will hit approximately one third of the time. But, there’s never been a Brett Wallace before. There’s never been a Brett Wallace handled by the Athletics, learning infield on the slow grass, taught to hit by Skaalen, managed by Geren, playing in the Coliseum, etc, etc, etc…Brett Wallace is similar to other players that Wang looked at in grade only, and we’re only talking about 150 players with the grade. It’s just lunacy to put any faith in the tiny sample.
by AgitationStation on Aug 10, 2009 5:39 PM PDT reply actions
How do you propose evaluating them then?
Wang looked at 1,000 players, which while a small sample size is not nothing.
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 10, 2009 6:51 PM PDT up reply actions
re
it’s pretty much nothing, especially since he was using quadrants. He wasn’t looking at 1000 players. He was looking at 40 quadrants. How do you evaluate them? Same way you always have, scouting plus a look at individual stats.
by AgitationStation on Aug 10, 2009 7:02 PM PDT up reply actions
DFA, nice post
My only question concerns valuation. I think there’s a sea change going on in baseball right now, and all the equations are about to change. People talk about steroids and the post-steroid era, but my suspicion is that the post-amphetamine era is what really counts: older players are going to fall by the wayside earlier due to fatigue issues rather than injury. Valuation is going to be based more on age than it has been in the past. I think the Alex Rios dump has everything to do with Alex Rios’ salary at 33+ and not that much to do with the Jays tightening their belts. Ricciardi knows he took a gamble at a time when the gamble didn’t feel like a gamble. The White Sox, as contenders, are willing to absorb the money down the road.
How does this play into the Holliday trade? I’m not sure, since we’re not talking lengthy contracts here. However, all valuations need to be lowered, or at least some need to be lowered. Nobody is going to pay the kind of money players were getting two years ago, and I’d assume (maybe wrongly) that arbitration will take that into account. So Holliday’s monetary value declines because he won’t be getting the kind of free agent contract he got prior to 2008. That might upset the equations, most likely in DFAs favor in regard to the success of the trade.
Personally, I like both trades. It’s possible the A’s realized the CarGon needed a change of scenery, and saw that Street was somewhat superfluous. These were trading chips, no more and no less. It happens. Thus, as trading chips, did they get value or not? CarGon was a project…on a team like the A’s, and seeing what he’s done thus far this year, I suspect he wouldn’t have been in the team’s plans until 2010, at which point you already have people like Doolittle, Carter and Cunningham in the system, not to mention Travis Buck. (and forgetting about Rajai Davis, of course, because his ascension was unpredictable).
Also, I agree that creating an interesting team (which the A’s appeared to be doing) is essential to maintaining a fan base. Steward’s article has some merit, but it really ignores what the A’s were trying to do over the winter, and concentrates instead on what an asshole Lewis Wolff is. So getting Holliday had the potential of increasing interest.
thoughtful post.
wish paul thomas were here to analyze for me. he disliked the gonzalez for holliday trade even more than I did. And while the return on this was nice, I’d be curious what he’d have to say about Wallace v. Gonzalez (not to mention Street v. others)
Save Rajai Davis
Great Post
I voted a push, but overall I think it was a win. The projections of value you cite for the players involved are no doubt higher than what the A’s front office sees. The Holliday debacle will be easy to judge once the dust clears – depending on which players, if any, become stars.
Personally, I’d call it a win overall, because if nothing else Beane effectively displaced some of our organizational player resources from the 2009 team to the 2010+ teams. That is necessary for small budget teams obviously, and in baseball it is hard to hold onto your value between seasons.
I miss Chad God
It's a shame a fanpost like this with 15 rec's and 150+ posts could not immediatly go to the front page
instead it is kicked off and buried after a day by fan posts with 3 rec’s and few comments
"Gratuitous gesticulating together sounds even better"
Thank you
If people stopped rec’ing the DLDs that would go a long way in helping the problem of good fan posts being pushed off the rec list since their content is time sensitive. I think it would be helpful if the number of recs also had something to do with how long something staid up.
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 12, 2009 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions
There should be a special box for DLDs and Game threads that just show the most recent one
Front page stories don’t last either, the next game buries them 5 levels deep.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Exactly. I feel like this post has a lot more conversation left in it and it would be sad if it died.
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 12, 2009 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions
GOG's also. does anyone read them other than the 20 people that play them?
"Gratuitous gesticulating together sounds even better"
+1
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Aug 12, 2009 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Agreed
Really good post with lots of interesting discussion. Why the fuck do people rec DLDs anyway?
by AgitationStation on Aug 12, 2009 7:48 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't know but someone with the power to do so should unrec them after a day.
Dating girls is like starting pitching depth, you think you have a good full rotation, even too many starters, then in an instant as soon as you trade your depth away injuries decimate your rotation and you are forced to start Sidney Ponson.
by designatedforassignment on Aug 12, 2009 9:17 PM PDT up reply actions
Not after a day,
but rather after the next one goes up, which in this case has not happened yet. DLDs frequently have conversation that persists for a few days, so they shouldn’t be bumped after a day any more than this post should.
This post had a good long run on the recommended list. I really don’t see how you have any complaint here.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

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