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tejada cheated?

since i don't have an essay prepared about it am i allowed to fanpost it?  (actual question there.  please let me know etiquette.  i just have a feeling it'll get lost in the shots as it's already being ignored in the OT place i previously put it...) 

here's an article that i bet you'd enjoy hating on if you haven't yet.  get ready for a flashback to more Artful times.  my only thoughts are, "surprise!  the NYT wrote an article about the A's." 

and, "surprise!  the NYT wrote an article about the A's that didn't half-way become an article on the NYYs doing all the right things."

and, "did this have any play on the ever-debatable why did beane go with chavez over tejada a few years later?" 

maybe as a conversation starter, does anyone remember the events described, either the plays or the mood or the meeting?  and do you remember having any suspicions about them?

finally, not a thought, partly of a mantra, partly a song stuck in my head, "drum drum drum-drum-drum,  ME-ne-CHI-no!" (second chorus: "double-A hitting coach, ME-ne-CHI-no!")


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Only Dominican players and no one else?

That alone doesn’t sound right to me. As far as Miggy, what Damon suggested — that opposing players who knew Miggy noticed him setting up and guessing where the next pitch would be, that he might have inadvertently tipped the pitch — sounds more plausible.

It’s a far cry to go from lying about one’s age as a kid to get a contract on the advice of a scout, to intentionally helping opposing players beat your team.

by OaklandSi on Aug 29, 2009 4:19 PM PDT via mobile reply actions  

not only

with so much delicious speculatin’ to do here, let’s not waste time twisting boring verifiables around: this article does not say “only dominicans” tip pitches. (i did a search. sorry. i’m into close reading like that.) it suggests reasons why players may or may not think outside of the team—nationality is a possibility in this case. other cases, which the article does suggest abound, are left unexplained but that doesn’t lead us to assume they’re also co-dominicans.

but back to outlandish speculations: i wouldn’t be shocked if players find affinities for other players from the same country, any players from any same country. not just because of shared playing time either. what if you recognize, in a blowout your team is winning, that, by helping your paisan get a little more AVG with a meaningless hit or two, you’d be raising his MLB dowry, moneys which surely would trickle back to your country and help someone or another, in the long run on a short stretch of land, fairly close to you… fun stuff, right?

don't care if i ever get back.

by AV on Aug 29, 2009 5:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

the words "only Dominicans' didn't appear in the article

but the only players mentioned by name as being suspected of doing that in the article are from the Dominican Republic.

by OaklandSi on Aug 29, 2009 5:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not those exact words, but

it’s clearly implied in the quotes from both Gant (“we can’t pull the Dominican guys out of our team and suspect them of anything until we catch them”) and Damon (“it seemed like all the Dominican guys were killing us”).

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 29, 2009 6:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

not "only"

oh, you guys… i’m not disputing the “dominicans.” i’m disputing the “only.” which isn’t even my favorite part of this article, but it was brought up.:

Only Dominican players and no one else?

it surprised me as a misreading and i wanted to clarify. like, OS took the thesis sentence of this article (which could be, “a few people are suspected of cheating in concert with tejada and they are all dominicans which suggests a personal connection in this instance.”) and turned it into “this article says only dominicans cheat (and tejada wasn’t cheating anyway because there was no intent).” that’d be like reading an article about enron and coming out of it thinking that only texans take advantage of deregulation, which, you know, could be, but that’s not what the article says exactly. but i failed to clarify and both of you still think that only dominicans cheat.

i guess i’m not reading this article as an exposé of cheating and all the people who do it or don’t by demographic breakdown. the piece is about a couple of specific events involving a couple of specific people under specific circumstances, and examining what could be the connection, if any at all, for this one specific instance.

anyway, how about that huddy and his country grammar?

don't care if i ever get back.

by AV on Aug 29, 2009 7:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

obviously you reading it differently than I am; I won't accuse you of misreading

I dont believe I misread anything…and I don’t think that such a terrible thing would be impossible or unheard of among baseball players. I do, however, think that singling out Dominican players by name — and only Dominican players by name — is problematic…and also a cheap shot.

Evidently the players satisfied themselves that Miggy wasn’t intentionally tipping, otherwise he would not have been accepted as a clubhouse leader after Giambi left. The fact that this comes out eight years later doesn’t make it more convincing…in fact, I mentioned Damon’s take on it as a more likely possibility.

by OaklandSi on Aug 29, 2009 10:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

i figured it out way later

that you were reacting at the writer for only mentioning dominicans. not that he was accusing them of it specifically. hey, it’s hard to get someone’s full thinking from 2 or 3 lines. that’s why i overwrite.

don't care if i ever get back.

by AV on Aug 30, 2009 1:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

The More You Think You Know About This Game...

The More You Don’t

Or the subtitle could be: “It didn’t start yesterday” Cobb and many others were notorious in the early part of the last century for favoring opponents who were trying for batting titles and other recognition.

One thing this story clearly suggests is that this stuff happens. And maybe far more than we’d like to believe. Whether Tejada did it or not the fact that a team meeting had to be called suggests that it was a credible enough allegation— i.e, it was not an unheard of practice in the bigs. As other references in the story bear out.

Brett Favre took a dive so Michael Strahan could have the sack record; we’ve heard of pitchers in runaway games grooving a pitch to a hitter on the other team looking for a memorable home run. Is this so different?

My guess is that Miggy was guilty, but on a fairly limited basis… and that it happens a lot.

by jasonthea on Aug 29, 2009 8:20 PM PDT reply actions  

Don't want to hear it

Miguel tejada is, was, and always will be my favorite Athletic. He played with so much heart and emotion, I have a hard time buying this. If he was guilty, it would crush me, my fond memories of the late 90s and early 2000s A’s teams, and make it difficult for me to ever get that close to a team again.

I therefore choose to ignore this article, classify it as bologna, and lash out at anyone who suggests negative things about Miguel Tejada.

by drudown on Aug 29, 2009 9:11 PM PDT reply actions   1 recs

I feel the same way as you do about Miggy.

He’s one of my all-time favorites too. But this article does make me wonder about him and it does alter the way I feel about him. I always felt as if he truly loved being an Athletic and playing for the team. But if he did this to Hudson and others then he’s a fucking rat.

by IM4Oakgal on Aug 29, 2009 10:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

IM4!

I’ve never heard you use that kind of language. You must feel strongly about this.

by Joey C. on Aug 30, 2009 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well yes I do feel strongly.

But I am sorry if I offended anyone with the profanity. Regarding pitch-tipping and muffing fielding plays purposely…how much lower can you sink? Taking a paycheck from a team to help them win and then helping the opposition is pretty low. I hope it isn’t true.

by IM4Oakgal on Aug 30, 2009 10:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm with you on that

And I like a lady who can cuss with the fellas.

by Joey C. on Aug 31, 2009 6:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

prepare to be crushed

he lied about his age, probably his name and definitely about doing PEDs. Tejada is a chump and Beane the did right thing letting him leave.

Chavez on the other hand, has never taken anything ever, or else hed still be playing. Logical? Yup.

by PL78 on Aug 30, 2009 6:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

It's an interesting story

Obviously, it’s less compelling because it is eight years old. But think of what would have happened if it had become public then.

There are an awful lot of on-the-record quotes from active major leaguers in that story, which is pretty impressive given the subject matter. It isn’t like Miggy is some nobody.

by bear88 on Aug 29, 2009 11:22 PM PDT reply actions  

The spirit of this piece is perfectly captured by Fernando Tatis
Mets third baseman Fernando Tatis said that he had never seen or heard of an actual case of pitch tipping or helping an opponent, but he added, "It happens."

Never saw it, never heard of it, nevertheless convinced that it happens. Perfect!

The entire piece is like that. Rampant speculation, hearsay, and a whole lot of drawing lines between widely separated dots that may not be connected at all.

Could it be true? Sure. But the fact that a hothead like Frank Menechino thought something was true is not especially strong evidence that that thing was actually true. As long as we’re speculating, how about some counter-speculation: These stories could be rooted in the age-old human tendency to be suspicious of outsiders and foreigners. The same impulses that, on a darker plane, led to witch burnings, the Japanese relocation, and centuries of pogroms resulting from whispers about what Jews purportedly did in their rituals to Christian babies.

My guess is that the false suspicion of cheating was more frequent than actual cheating of this kind.

by Faust on Aug 30, 2009 6:00 AM PDT reply actions   4 recs

Recommended

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Aug 30, 2009 9:41 AM PDT up reply actions  

maybe tatis meant that him never seeing or hearing of things is what “happens?” just kidding. that sentence struck me too.

indeed. there is no evidence. it’s all speculation. and i like your counter-speculative angle. i think that’s really all we can get out of a story like this, and that’s why i like it in the first place. all these angles are like a tinker toy you can connect and reconnect for a while, entertain the heck out of yourself, and then take it apart and put it away. at the end of the day, i still like tejada and i still think he rules and i would still take him on the A’s even in a farewell tour like giambi’s.

don't care if i ever get back.

by AV on Aug 30, 2009 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions  

and the beat goes on to counter your counter.

don't care if i ever get back.

by AV on Aug 30, 2009 10:43 AM PDT up reply actions  

Because the NYT

wanted an article about pitch-tipping because of the A-Rod accusations, but didn’t want to write about A-Rod, for fear of “piling on” and not want to piss of Yankees fans.

So, they probably found a story that had been around in certain baseball circles for some time, and found people willing to comment.

And then they had some folks who would say salacious things while playing up racial/national prejudices. (without calling it out exactly)

by timed exposure on Aug 30, 2009 5:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

Playing up the racial aspect of it...

goes two ways. Maybe you’re right but maybe you’re wrong. Maybe those that think that it’s all about nationality are the ones off-base. We really don’t know but I would like to hear more players discussing their concerns about players helping the opposition.

by IM4Oakgal on Aug 30, 2009 10:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not sure what you mean about it going 2 ways

but let me clarify my thinking about the story:

I think the reporter found people to comment on the story, and their statements alluded to the fact that it was Dominican ballplayers who were benefiting from Tejada’s alleged aid.

I think the writer chose to use quotes and language that suggested racial/nationality overtones.

David Waldstein (the reporter):

Tejada and Blue Jays third baseman Tony Batista, friends from the Dominican Republic, each put up terrific numbers.

Waldstein, again:

Because A’s players had heard Beltre was a teammate of Tejada’s in the Dominican Winter League, their antennae went up again, and within a few days the meeting was arranged.

Johnny Damon:

But it seemed like all the Dominican guys were killing us.

Waldstein, paraphrasing Howe:

When Howe defended Tejada by saying that he had pride and wanted to go home in the off-season and tell his friends how well he played, an outraged Menechino stood up.

And actually, reading this again, it seems to me that this is less about pitch tipping than it is about impugning Tejada for no apparent reason, and using his nationality to do it. Or perhaps the reason is what I suggested before: taking the heat of A-Rod. And how to do that – attack another shortstop who was once of the same caliber.

If this were about pitch tipping, the writer certainly would have discussed some of the historical cases of alleged pitch tipping. Like the one that Waldstein’s own paper, the New York Times, reported on in May:

Price was the Tigers’ catcher on Sept. 19, 1968, when he and pitcher Denny McLain conspired to give Mickey Mantle a going-away gift.

A few weeks from retirement and tied with Jimmie Foxx with 534 career home runs, Mantle came to the plate in the eighth inning with the Tigers comfortably ahead, 6-1. Detroit had already clinched the American League pennant — this was before leagues were split into two divisions, let alone three — and McLain had already won his 30th game.

Price, a second-year reserve who was playing to give Bill Freehan a rest, walked out to the mound to give the 9,063 fans in Tiger Stadium one last chance to pay their respects.

"When I got there, Denny said, ‘Hey, big guy, should I let him hit one?’ " Price recalled Thursday night in a telephone interview. "I said it was a great idea. Mickey was always nice to me. So I went back behind the plate and Mickey, like he always did, was tapping the plate with his bat when I said, ‘Want us to groove one for you?’ "

by timed exposure on Aug 30, 2009 11:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

Price

told a more detailed story on marty lurie’s show this year.

And I like you comment.

by Future Ed on Aug 31, 2009 12:24 AM PDT up reply actions  

OK-- here are the facts

Remember that the 2001 team was probably the best team the A’s have fielded since 1989, and went on to post one of the most amazing 2nd half performances of the post WWII era. And was the Wild Card team— because Seattle cold-cocked the A’s and everyone else on their way to a record-shattering 116-46 season.

At the time of the supposed controversy— which occurred after a three game series in Toronto on May 8-9-10— the A’s were already 11 games behind the M’s (they would fall as much as 20 games back in late June) and were reeling— boasting a poor 11-20 record before the Toronto series.

WHICH THEY WON IN A SWEEP. Yep, they won all three games that supposedly sparked this team meeting and accusation against Tejada.

I looked at all 28 games through the Toronto series and the subsequent 3 game set in Boston where the A’s either a) lost or b) won but allowed 5 runs or more— which would be leading candidates for the kind of pitch-tipping behavior that was alleged. All 3 Toronto games fell into the latter category. In each case I identified the opposition player who did the A’s the most damage. (if someone wants to go back and compute every single BA, OPS, etc.. for all Dominican and non-Dominican players, be my guest)

So Johnny Damon— here we go!! Lots of Latin players hurt the A’s early— in the first 10 of these 28 games, 8 of them featured Latin players who were the most damaging. Only problem is— they were Edgar Martinez (Puerto Rican born in NYC— 3 games— who happened to be just about the best right hand hitter in the AL back then), Benjie Molina (PR also), Carlos Guillen (Venezuelan), Benji Gil (Mexican) and, yes, Alex Rodriguez (2 games) who, while he was born in the DR, grew up in Miami and doesn’t really count as someone Tejada would be helping out. Plus he might have been the best player in the game.

But then up to a series with the Red Sox just before the trip to Toronto the only Latino players who hurt the A’s were Jose Valentin (walk-off HR— he’s Puerto Rican) , Carlos Lee (Panama) and Alfonso Soriano, who was Dominican but went a measly 1-2 with a run and a RBI in a Yankee game the Bombers won. Instead we were burned by the likes of Fullmer, Greer, Knoblauch, Tino Martinez (from Florida).

Until… and here we get into the Damon territory: Jose Offerman— a Red Sock from the DR— killed us in back to back games in Oakland: 5-9 with 2 HRS, 3 R and 5 RBI. And then Batista went 6-13 in that Toronto series with 5 RBI, but remember a) the A’s won that series, and b) Brad Fullmer and Scott Fletcher were Blue Jay batting stars in two of those games. And then ManRam— also from the Dominican— lit us up twice in Fenway. As if that was caused by pitch-tipping.

So it seems that for a team coming off a playoff appearance and an ever-so-close defeat to the Yankees who was playing badly at 11-20 and already nearly hopelessly behind their chief division rival, the performance of Jose Offerman and Tony Batista in back-to-back series raised some eyebrows. Of course the team went 91-40 from the time their plane set down on Canadian soil till the end of the year.

So either the meeting a) helped unify the team, b) convinced Tejada to stop “throwing” games (I am being facetious, of course), or c) was inconsequential compared to the rest of that year’s course.

But one final note: I will never forget Giambi, for whatever you thought or think of him, knowing he was probably headed elsewhere in the off-season and very likely to NY, screaming at Tejada for not taking an extra base on Giambi’s hit in the late stages of Game 5 when the A’s were trailing. Was it a by-product of this earlier incident? Who knows?

by jasonthea on Aug 31, 2009 10:37 AM PDT reply actions   3 recs

Thanks

I appreciate the extra work you have put into this and have shared with us.

by el generico on Aug 31, 2009 4:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sir!

Are you implying A-Rod is not Dominican enough!?!?!?!?

… he joked.

by Joey C. on Aug 31, 2009 6:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

awesome.

i wanted to know this but was tooo lazy to get it. thanks.

don't care if i ever get back.

by AV on Aug 31, 2009 11:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

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