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Why I Hate Baseball Writing or a Tale of a Big Urb Blog Entry

One of the main reasons that I come to AN is because I abhor most baseball writing.  While there are notable outliers like our own Susan Slusser or Dejan Kovacevic, but for every good writer there are six terrible ones.  One example that comes to mind is the NYT Yankee beat writer who wrote that Mark Tiexiera has locked up the MVP, no contest, apparently forgetting that there is this dude named Joe Mauer who makes Tiexiera look like a high school baseball star rather than the AL MVP.  Unfortunately we have a beat writer for mlb.com that is in my opinion on the wrong side of the side of the ledger.

Star-divide

The most recent post on Big Urb, Mychael Urban's blog was a great example of bad sports writing.  First Urban discussed a change that Travis Buck has made to his swing and ditching his thumb guard.  Urban from the first part of his post it is clear that Urban is a fan of Travis Buck, which is more than fine, but in this case he presents his argument in a disingenuous way.  This is how Urban described the Buck's new swing:

The dramatic change he's making is being roundly applauded by the scouts to whom I've talked about it.

Now that sure sounds like a bunch of trained baseball observers have watched Buck play and like the change.  Right?  Not so fast.  Both of the scouts start their comments on Buck with

"That's great to hear,"

and

"It's nice to hear,"

Because guess what? From both comments it is clear that neither has actually seen Buck and was informed of the change by Urban.  Now thats not to say that Bucks new mechanics aren't better than the old ones.  However, Urban presents bad information by saying that the change was good.  Bucks' new swing could be even more screwed up than the movement screwed up his old swing, but these scouts couldn't tell you that since they haven't seen Buck play.  Urban could have easily been more accurate and neutral, by saying for example, that "Travis Buck was taking his time in Sacramento to ditch a part of his swing that scouts had previously disliked."  Urban could have used the exact same quotes because they speak to not liking a part of Buck's old swing and has nothing to do with seeing or liking his new one. But instead Urban choose to portray a player he like as getting shafted by management, being a hard worker, and having a really well liked revamped swing, all of which may be true but aren't necessarily supported by his article.

While that would be a minor annoyance and some biased reporting, that was probably the high point in the article.  Urban followed with this little dandy:

... Tommy Everidge got his third start of the year at DH today, and I'm thinking he'll get about 100 or more starts there next year. I just don't see Jack Cust in green and gold next year, and Everidge probably isn't good enough on defense to be an everyday first baseman. But as his man-sized home run off Sabathia showed, he's got Custian pop, and he's more of a complete hitter. And he's cheaper. No-brainer.

This is to be frank, a crock of shit.  Jack Cust is in every way a better hitter than Tommy Everidge.  Not only does Cust have a far superior track record than Everidge, Cust is also better this year, even in bad stats like batting average and RBIs.  Just look at the numbers: wOBA .332 Cust, .295 Everidge.  AVG .234 Cust, .222 Everidge,  BB% 15.5% Cust, 9.0% Everidge, Slug .393 Cust to .370 Everidge and even RBIs/PA Cust wins too.  Their BB/K rate is esentially the same at .50 for Cust and .54 for Everidge. The only thing that Everidge is better at is his raw K rate which is about 2/3s what Custs is.  So basically the only thing that Everidge has an advantage in (K rate) is negated by his crappy walk rate.

One of the only true things in that paragraph is that Cust is going to become arbitration eligible at the end of the season and become less affordable, while Everidge is going to still be paid league minimum.  However, Cust's arbitration award (first year arbitration awards are suppose to approximate 40% of free agent market value) shouldn't be oppressive by any means, since Adam Dunn only secured $10 million on the free agent market and he is a superior player in pretty much every way to Cust.  I would venture to guess that Cust would get a about $2.8 m in arbitration.  Now ZIPS rest of the season projections shows Cust getting much of his power back and hitting with a .360 wOBA the rest of the way, suggesting that next year he will likely rebound.  Furthermore, starting the year fresh without having his sucessful approach messed with by the A's coaching staff and with a chance to heal his back injury which could be sapping his power, I would expect a return to form.  If Cust hits for a .370 wOBA from the DH spot, 21 BRAA  and a -17.5 runs positional, that makes him a 2.5 WAR player.  At $4.5m for a marginal win thats $11.25m in value for $2.8 in salary, and a significant win for the A's.

Everidge on the other had projects to be blow league average with the bat again next year.  26 year old journeyman don't magically get significantly better.  Everidge's production almost exactly mirrors his CHONE projections for this year.  Even supposing a .040 point wOBA improvement, which is far from certain or even likely, Everidge would provide nearly replacement level production, since 0 BRAA plus the -17.5 positional runs from being a DH almost completely negates the 20 runs that are credited for 600 plate apearaces to adjust from replacement rate. Therefore, Everidge would only be worth a quarter of a win above replacement as the A's DH next year.  Personally I would prefer the extra 2.25 wins next year, especially if we are going to compete.

You would think that was all of the foolish thoughts that could be plugged into one blog entry but here comes the caper:

... I just checked out a few of the acronym stats I don't understand in an effort to be a better-informed baseball writer, but I gave up upon seeing that Mark Teixeira is considered a defensive negative according to UZR (Ultimate Zone Rating). Anyone who thinks Teixeira is anything less than a godsend for the Yanks defensively is spending way too much time VORPing and not nearly enough time WATCHING THE GAME.

On so many levels there are problems with this. What the hell is the point of having a fielding metric that shows that everything you already believe. First the metric says that Teixiera average fielder but not a bad one which is what Urban is implying. Teixeira is less than 1 run below average this year which is far below the level of significant in the metric. Second, while it showed Teixeira as a very good fielder last year you also have to look beyond one year samples. An average of three years is a much better way of looking at a players fielding stats. Third, the whole watch the game is a stupid generalization, especially since UZR numbers are derived from recording where every ball is hit and how hard it is hit… SOMETHING BIS DOES WHILE WATCHING THE GAME.  Finally, it is likely that a couple of things happened because the sample of fielders is low and the fielding isn’t an abstract number it is compared to other fielders, it is likely that Teixiera is an averagish 1bman that got a bit of luck and the other players last year that he was compared to weren't as bad as a whole, for example you didn't have Giambi playing twice as many innings this year. Additionally, Mitchel Lightman has far more cogent and staty explanations that fangraphs complied than I do as to why Urban and the other people recently bagging on UZR, mostly don't understand the metric at all.

There are some great baseball writers in this country, but unfortunately for the newspaper industry and corporate media sites like ESPN and MLB.com, the vast majority of them are in places like AN, Fangraphs, Beyond the Boxscore, Minorleagueball, Joe Pozanski's site, BP and sites of their ilk.  If you want me to read your sports page or look at anything beyond gameday on your website, please hire a writer who has some idea of what they are talking about.  Unfortunately, this Big Urb blog entry shows that Mychael Urban rarely qualifies as such.

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Can I rec this post more than once? Urban sucks.

"You know Eklund would grab your cheeseburger before the Hamburglar.

Cheeseburger to Eklund (e4)"

~ Morti

by CaliforniaJag on Aug 23, 2009 11:54 PM PDT reply actions  

I think he looks like something else

"You know Eklund would grab your cheeseburger before the Hamburglar.

Cheeseburger to Eklund (e4)"

~ Morti

by CaliforniaJag on Aug 24, 2009 12:37 AM PDT up reply actions  

Cust is already in arbitration

He had 3.002 years of service time entering this year (which is interesting because it means that he would reach free agency a year later if he had been called up just 3 days after he was*). As it stands, he will be a free agent in November 2011.

On a brighter note (from DFA’s perspective, anyway) he did manage to nail Cust’s first-year arbitration salary spot-on… as Cust is in fact making exactly $2.8M this season. However, that is likely (despite his overall poor performance) to increase next year— I’d guess to around $4M.

*If you remember, Cust was in fact about to leave the Padres organization to try to get a job in Japan at the time the A’s acquired him. I suspect that it is not a coincidence that he opted to leave at almost the exact moment at which his potential free agency would be postponed by another season (from his age 33 season to his age 34 season, making it significantly less likely he’d get a long-term deal from anyone). Notwithstanding his hulking-grunt image, he’s nobody’s fool.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 24, 2009 12:09 AM PDT reply actions  

Well shit... thanks for fact checking

$4m would make sense since 60% of FA market is the supposed standard for year 2 of arb. He’s still a bargain at $4m and I would think that with his down year I would take the under on that bet.

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 12:17 AM PDT up reply actions  

dfa-- for once we kind of agree

Urban is a hack, and there are a lot of them out there.

And Cust v. Everidge is not much of a contest.

But as for UZR…… well of course I agree with Lightman that nobody “sees” every defensive play, and those that only see one player/team are perennially fooled about their true skill. As a group, major league infielders are all pretty damn good— it is nigh impossible for a naked eye assessment to be accurate about them. And Urban falls into the typical trap of damning the numbers when they don’t agree with his “lying eyes”.

That all said, I remain a skeptic about UZR— as opposed to other fielding metrics. I feel it is way too rigid in its treatment of different team or individual positioning based on hand/type of pitcher; ditto batter; game situation, etc…. But that’s another entire discussion.

by jasonthea on Aug 24, 2009 12:33 AM PDT reply actions  

This is exactly what I am saying

UZR like any metric has flaws, and discussing those flaws is important and valid. However Urban doesn’t, he dismisses an entire metric because it disagrees with what he sees. Just ten years ago players like Matt Stairs and John Jaha were seen as bad hitters but picked up by the A’s because a metric said they were more valuable. Just because you don’t understand or see something doesn’t mean its not there.

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 8:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

New metrics are just like any other tech advance

Usability is the last thing anyone ever focuses on.

In just about every single tech advance ever, the technology was there years before the actual consumer implementation of the product. New technologies start out clunky and flawed, where power users know how to understand and get around those flaws. Once the flaws are smoothed over via iterative development, it becomes usable to the average person (and with many technologies, that never happens, and the technologists who don’t get it are left bemoaning the “stupidity” of the population for dismissing their technology).

Sounds like you’re saying UZR is in that clunky, flawed category, which means (a) people who don’t get it aren’t power users, but they’re not necessarily stupid (are you expecting sports writers to be power users of statistical metrics?), and (b) those who do get it have some work to do to iron out those flaws and make it as understandable to the average user as the venerable, useless and very understandable RBI.

Let’s just be glad the A’s front office are power users.

by oblique on Aug 24, 2009 9:08 AM PDT up reply actions  

I don't think that's really true

It isn’t that UZR is hard to use (positive numbers = further above average), it’s that UZR has a lot less accuracy than offensive stats do. For now, and until hitfx, it’s pretty much the nature of the defensive metric beast.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 24, 2009 9:34 AM PDT up reply actions  

total agreement

the only critical insight in using UZR is to know that the variance is rather high. If you want a reliable measurement of someone’s talent, use several years of data.

That said, one thing that I would find very useful for UZR (and pretty much every other stat ever) is for someone to tell me what the expected variance for an average major leaguer is over spans of 1 month, 1 season, 2 seasons, etc. I guess this is a pretty hard thing to determine though (particularly because of aging).

by colin on Aug 24, 2009 10:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

I don't know...

Sounds to me like a usability issue. Keep in mind that usability is more about being easy to learn than it is easy to use — once you’re over a learning curve, anything is easy to use. That doesn’t mean its usability is high.

To understand UZR effectively, a layman needs to know to not use just one year’s worth of data (small samples might be intuitive when talking about a month of data, but a whole season tends to be a “large enough” sample for most traditional metrics to make some sense), and to not read into slight differences very much (coming from an OPS culture where a difference of 0.1 is large, that might not be intuitive). Clearly, if you fully understand the implications of a high variance, UZR can be useful. But when UZR and other defensive (and lesser developed offensive metrics) are being posted on sites alongside things like OBP and BB/K ratios, with a whole different set of caveats, I don’t think it’s surprising that a non-expert would have trouble using them correctly.

I like the idea of having the expected variance, and perhaps eventually be able to correct for other individual player factors as well, such that a UZR would have a +/- after it by default.

by oblique on Aug 24, 2009 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

Learning curve consists of "Read Fangraphs" and "Read The Book"

If I can understand it and im not getting paid to, Urban who is can surely spend the time to learn it.

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 12:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not to defend Urban

I agree with you; he could and should.

I’m coming more from the perspective of random dude watching baseball. I think it’d be cool to someday have a defensive stat that could be listed alongside the player names when the defensive alignment is introduced, the way average has for years for the lineup, and the way OBP/OPS has started showing up in that spot.

by oblique on Aug 24, 2009 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

I mean if you have no desire to tell how it works

UZR is very simple as it gives you runs gained or lost above average, and could easily be used to go next to wOBA on a tv graphic.

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

And to the question "Are you expecting sports writers to be power users of statistical metrics?"

Your answer is apparently “yes.” Based on VK’s post below, I suspect he may have a different answer (and I personally read so little sports writing that I really don’t care either way!).

by oblique on Aug 24, 2009 12:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

No one is expecting him to CALCULATE it

Just to have a cursory two paragraph understanding (or, in the alternative, to shut up about it).

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 24, 2009 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

I endorse this statement

Signed,
DFA

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 12:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

The biggest issue I have with Urban about his UZR rant

(an issue that is prevalent in lots of pro stats/anti stat debates) is that he doesn’t actually cover why he thinks it’s a bad stat. And I’m guessing he does this becasue he has no fucking clue how UZR works. Just that he disagrees with it. If anyone really wants to convince for or against a particular stat, break down what the stat does, and how it does that, before spewing uninformed bullshit. In conclusion, fuck you Mychael Urban.

"Surely these gents are talking about the dashing rookie campaign of southpaw Jamie Moyer. Now, that cat is on the up and up." JLaff, in 1929.

by travdog6 on Aug 24, 2009 1:08 AM PDT reply actions   1 recs

Totally agree.

and better/worse (more “extreme”) defensive players have had aberration years before.

And yeah, of course Teixeira looks like a godsend out there defensively; just look at what Yankees fans and pitchers are accustomed to over at 1B the last few years defensively.

"I generally avoid temptation unless I can't resist it" ~ Mae West

by Blicks on Aug 24, 2009 3:09 AM PDT up reply actions  

Why do you think that? I mean he provides his warrants above.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 25, 2009 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

The last four words.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Aug 25, 2009 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

Im the peaceable type until someone goes after me (like Urban does),

then Im a big rhetorical gloves comes off kinda guy. It doesn’t really bother me.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 25, 2009 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ya

This made me pretty angry, /is the reason I think I included those last 4 words.

Anyone who thinks Teixeira is anything less than a godsend for the Yanks defensively is spending way too much time VORPing and not nearly enough time WATCHING THE GAME

It was basically a baseless personal attack as well. Admittedly, my eye for an eye approach was not the best choice, but hey, I’m just some guy on a blog.

"Surely these gents are talking about the dashing rookie campaign of southpaw Jamie Moyer. Now, that cat is on the up and up." JLaff, in 1929.

by travdog6 on Aug 25, 2009 1:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

A personal attack

requires specifics. Saying “anyone” is not specific enough to be a personal attack. Saying “Mychael Urban” on the other hand, is specific.

by jeffro on Aug 26, 2009 8:24 AM PDT up reply actions  

This distinction doesn't make any sense at all

Why can’t I just say “Anyone who thinks [insert opinions of opposing side here] is an imbecile,” and get off scot free because I didn’t use their name?

That’s essentially what Urban just did.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 26, 2009 9:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

This

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 26, 2009 9:41 AM PDT up reply actions  

Hog wash

If you take personal offense at something as general as that I can’t help you.

by jeffro on Aug 26, 2009 12:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

define offense

was it a personal attack on me: yes.
do i care that much: no

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 26, 2009 12:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

Wow

You take that offhand remark in a Mychael Urban blog as being directed at you personally?

by jeffro on Aug 26, 2009 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

I am the group he was refering to

its like if he went on a rant against all recent college graduates. Just because he targets others doesn’t mean that he doesn’t also target me.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 26, 2009 1:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

You mean like,

“Anyone who goes to college is stupid”?

Come on, who would say something like that?

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 26, 2009 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

The magnitued of the insult is low

doesn’t mean that its not personal, just like the Urban thing.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 26, 2009 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

You wouldn't

You would say college is a waste of time and too expensive, which is different.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 26, 2009 1:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

You guys are so sweet.

Every time I try to parody myself, you take it seriously and say nice things.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 26, 2009 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

That can't be right

I’m an asshole.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 26, 2009 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

Your position is based on an illogical hyper-technical reading of "personal attack"

Let’s try something even more obvious. If I say “I don’t like black people,” and DFA is black, according to you he’s not supposed to take personal offense at that “general” statement.

“Personal insults” in the narrow sense are just one member of a group of sociopathic logical fallacies, another of which is “smearing a group of people based on stereotypical characteristics.” I don’t exactly think Urban wants to fall back on the “hey, all I was doing was making bigoted statements!” defense.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 26, 2009 1:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

Oh boy

now VORPism and racism are one in the same.

by jeffro on Aug 26, 2009 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

Oh come on he did not even come close to comparing the magnitude of those things

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 26, 2009 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

Doesn't almost everyone think that

Teixeira is “less than a God send”?

I’m way less vorpy than you guys, but I fall into that category. It’s not a very personal attack when it encompasses millions of people.

What if someone said “anyone who doesn’t love the Yankees is a loser”, would that count?

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 26, 2009 9:44 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yes

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 26, 2009 9:47 AM PDT up reply actions  

Nope

That’s the point. A personal attack requires a “person” for the statement to be directed at.

If someone said “Anyone who thinks like designatedforassignement is a moron” than that si a personal attack.

Making a generalized statement about an ambiguous group of “anyones” is hardly a personal attack.

by jeffro on Aug 26, 2009 12:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

I should add

I think Mychael Urban’s opine is patently false in this case. But i don’t think there is any reason to take what he says as a personal attack against me specifically.

And… Just because someone says something that isn’t a direct, personal attack against me doesn’t mean that it isn’t a jerky thing to say.

by jeffro on Aug 26, 2009 1:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hey everybody,

I’m starting up a band called “The Semantics”

and I need about, say, five or six lead singers…

anyone interested?

"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard

by Gaijin_Suketto on Aug 26, 2009 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't have a problem with your diary.

It’s obviously very unflattering to Urban, but it isn’t a personal attack; it is a very clearly focused rebuttal to something he wrote.

Saying “f^&* you” to someone is a clear violation of the guidelines of this community, and like it or not, Mychael Urban is a user of this community.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Aug 25, 2009 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

True,

Ya I won’t do that again. My apologies.

"Surely these gents are talking about the dashing rookie campaign of southpaw Jamie Moyer. Now, that cat is on the up and up." JLaff, in 1929.

by travdog6 on Aug 25, 2009 1:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

Saying "fuck you" to somebody is not a personal attack.

If you have a problem with his post, flag it. There’s really no need for the forum police BS.

"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."

by mikev on Aug 25, 2009 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm trying to wrap my head around how "fuck you" isn't a personal attack

Maybe I’ll try saying it to a cop and see what happens. Travdog6 already posted the correct answer, so I guess it doesn’t matter.

Travdog, I did flag your post the moment I saw it, so if you hear about it and wonder who did it, it was me. For what it’s worth to whomever reads those flags, I think the fact you apologized for it should be good enough.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Aug 25, 2009 1:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well... there's a pretty big difference.

“You’re a fucking moron” – Personal Attack
“Fuck you” – Not a personal attack

"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."

by mikev on Aug 25, 2009 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

Seriously?

“Fuck you, Mychael Urban” is not directed at anyone in particular?

by jeffro on Aug 26, 2009 8:26 AM PDT up reply actions  

Im with mikev here

but then again fuck you or fuck in general has been so devalued in my mind that I really really don’t even think twice about it.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 25, 2009 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

You need to think about it more

GET OUT OF YOUR MOM’S BASEMENT, BLOGGER! FIND A WOMAN!

(See, jeepers, THAT was a personal attack)

"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."

by mikev on Aug 25, 2009 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

I moved out of the basement Im in my room and there is a woman across the street

WHAT DO I DO NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 25, 2009 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

GO UP AND MAKE OUT WITH HER, MAN.

Do I have to do everythign for you!?!?

"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."

by mikev on Aug 25, 2009 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

Should I change out of my blogger pajamas first?

These are important questions!

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 25, 2009 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ideally, neither of you wear pajamas.

"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."

by mikev on Aug 25, 2009 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

rain coats perhaps? :-P

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 25, 2009 7:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

I must be getting old

Those are punch you in the face words to me, if I were the sort of person that punched people in the face.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Aug 25, 2009 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

It's not a personal attack in the conventional sense, i.e. an attempt to denigrate the reputation of someone else

“Fighting words” is a more accurate description.

Which isn’t to say that it ought to be “protected.” In practical terms, the distinction is fairly pedantic.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 25, 2009 4:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

And heaven forbid that anyone be pedantic in this thread!

< autocatalyzes >

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 25, 2009 5:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hey if I deserve a strike, I'll get one.

That’s fine by me. There will be consequences if I deserve them.

"Surely these gents are talking about the dashing rookie campaign of southpaw Jamie Moyer. Now, that cat is on the up and up." JLaff, in 1929.

by travdog6 on Aug 25, 2009 5:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

"until someone goes after me"

How do you figure that Urban goes after you?

I can see how you would say his opinions are ignorant, and you don’t like his writing, etc, but how is any of that an attack on you? Are you including yourself among the “anyone who thinks that” and calling it a personal attack on that basis? That seems pretty far-fetched to me.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 25, 2009 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

Why do you not think I spend my time "VROPing"?

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 25, 2009 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

It was a joke/rant.

Probably unneeded, you’re right.

"Surely these gents are talking about the dashing rookie campaign of southpaw Jamie Moyer. Now, that cat is on the up and up." JLaff, in 1929.

by travdog6 on Aug 25, 2009 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

Lets not take that outside the (oddly successful) fanpost please

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 24, 2009 8:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

+ 1

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 9:24 AM PDT up reply actions  

DISCLAIMER: NO ANIMATED HORSES WERE HARMED IN THE MAKING OF THIS .GIF

"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."

by mikev on Aug 24, 2009 9:25 AM PDT up reply actions  

That might be the first emoticon I've seen that I would actually consider using in the future

"If Vin Mazzaro comes anywhere near me with shaving cream he’s gonna be coming away with a bloody stump" – Dallas Braden

by doctorK on Aug 24, 2009 9:26 AM PDT up reply actions  

Nice GIF

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 9:28 AM PDT up reply actions  

GIF me that GIF!

"You know Eklund would grab your cheeseburger before the Hamburglar.

Cheeseburger to Eklund (e4)"

~ Morti

by CaliforniaJag on Aug 24, 2009 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Heh. Two points:

(1) Get over it. “If you want me to read your sports page…” News flash: you’re not the target audience. This ain’t reporting in your sense of the word. It’s just jocks talking about sports like jocks talk about sports. Some people like that. Maybe not you or me, but a bigger audience than us.

(2) You keep making references like this one:

without having his sucessful approach messed with by the A’s coaching staff

Last I heard that’s just speculation. We don’t know exactly why Cust declined this year. Maybe it’s just a random bad streak. Maybe it’s the sore back. Maybe he did mess with his approach but his own doing, not the coaching staff’s. Maybe he’s truly in decline.

We can only guess. That the coaching staff messed with his approach is your guess, which is fine. But unless I missed something you have no actual evidence of this, in which case you shouldn’t be throwing it out there as if it were established fact.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 24, 2009 3:27 AM PDT reply actions   2 recs

the Cust approach

This has been bothering me too, iglew. I think that lots of people on AN are making a big deal about a couple of spring training stories regarding Cust’s changed approach. It smacks of confirmation bias; we are enlightened people who understand baseball statistics, so we look down on the people who freak out over STRICKOUTS and assume that there are such people on the A’s coaching staff who are ruining Cust’s approach at the plate. But there just isn’t enough evidence around to prove that this is the cause of his bad season. It’s certainly possible… and we can cross our fingers and hope that he’s going to bounce back next year, but it’s far from a given.

by colin on Aug 24, 2009 8:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

People actually ran the numbers

As walk rate is quite consistent year to year, the odds that his walk rate was an aberration proved to be quite low. Looking at the components showed he was swinging a LOT more early in the count too.

I think there’s solid evidence that he was, in fact, trying something different that muted his strengths and emphasized his weaknesses.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 24, 2009 9:01 AM PDT up reply actions  

Cust's swing percentage went through the roof during the early months of the season.

The numbers are on fangraphs, and I’d be happy to find them if you wish. But right now I think I’m gonna sleep.

"Surely these gents are talking about the dashing rookie campaign of southpaw Jamie Moyer. Now, that cat is on the up and up." JLaff, in 1929.

by travdog6 on Aug 24, 2009 10:27 AM PDT up reply actions  

Do you mean the link in my comment above?

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 24, 2009 10:28 AM PDT up reply actions  

Absolutely,

probably should have read that before commenting.

"Surely these gents are talking about the dashing rookie campaign of southpaw Jamie Moyer. Now, that cat is on the up and up." JLaff, in 1929.

by travdog6 on Aug 24, 2009 10:29 AM PDT up reply actions  

If you're suggesting that's the case here, I'd like to hear why you think the article I linked above is wrong.

If you’re making a general observation, then you’ve made a true statement.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 24, 2009 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

A general observation.

I liked what you wrote in your comment above and just wanted to suggest the pervasiveness.

by LowcountryJoe on Aug 24, 2009 5:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

There is plenty of "actual evidence"

This year:

Cust’s walk rate is down;
his Swing , Z-Swing and O-Swing % are up;
his strikeout rate is down;
his HR/FB rate is WAY down, almost bizarrely so.

Saying that there ’s “no evidence” that his approach has been messed with is preposterous. These are a bunch of changes that are exactly what one would expect if someone was told to try loosening up his swing requirements— more contact, more swings, weaker results per ball put in play, fewer walks because more at-bats end on balls in play. And lo and behold, we have articles claiming that the coaching staff suggested exactly that to Jack Cust before the season started.

How many ducklike features do we need before proclaiming that this is, in fact, a duck?

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 24, 2009 9:09 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

It must weigh the same as a witch?

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 9:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

+1

any monty python reference desrves as much

"Sometimes Joe (morgan) doesn't like facts to get in the way of his opinions."- billy beane
"That was a great pick...if this was 2002" Me, to guy who selected Barry Zito in a fantasy draft
www.27ClubPeak.blogspot.com

by harendaman365 on Aug 24, 2009 9:33 AM PDT up reply actions  

Wait, so Jack Cust is made of wood?

"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."

by mikev on Aug 24, 2009 9:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

Build a bridge out of him

Of course, he did put up a couple of very impressive bridges yesterday.

"If Vin Mazzaro comes anywhere near me with shaving cream he’s gonna be coming away with a bloody stump" – Dallas Braden

by doctorK on Aug 24, 2009 9:52 AM PDT up reply actions  

Ahh, but can one not also make bridges out of reinforced concrete?

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Aug 24, 2009 10:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yes.

And there’s plenty in his glove.

The meaning of life is not so much 'found,' as it is 'made.' --Opus

by The Dogfather on Aug 24, 2009 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Well, he turned me into a newt anyway

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 24, 2009 9:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

I got better!

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 5:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

rec'd

thanks for the clear explanation

by colin on Aug 24, 2009 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions  

I was not aware of the actual articles

claiming that the coaching staff suggested exactly that. I generally pay no attention to baseball before the middle of April, so if these were spring training stories, I would have missed them. Normally I’d ask for links, but in your case I’ll take your word for it.

As for the rest, just because his numbers show he’s swinging more, it doesn’t demonstrate why. It still doesn’t show whether it was the coaching staff’s decision, Cust’s own decision, or some physical factor that made Cust change instinctively but not deliberately. More to the point, it doesn’t demonstrate that he wouldn’t do the same thing again next year, and the assumption that he would not is the point DFA was trying to support by citing the coaching staff’s interference with Jack’s approach. (For that matter, even if it is due to coaching staff interference, who’s to say they won’t interfere again next spring.)

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 24, 2009 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

I did find it a while back after seeing it around Spring Training

They wanted him to alter his two-strike approach to cut back on strikeouts, but it looks like he went past that.

Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog

by Flashfire on Aug 24, 2009 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

More evidence (yay!)

During the last month his O-Swing and overall Swing% are down to more normal levels. (His Z-Swing is still about at his 2009 seasonal average.) His walk rate is an insane 26.4%, vastly in excess of any other MLB player. His K rate is back to Custian heights. The only production stat that hasn’t rebounded is his isolated power, which also has the most plausible alternative/collateral explanation for its decline (back trouble).

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 24, 2009 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

And for what it's worth...

…I just saw a quote in today’s paper that he thinks he’s found a problem that was effecting his swing. Time will tell.

Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog

by Flashfire on Aug 24, 2009 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

He mentioned it in a pregame interview with

ken? vince? ray? not sure who. he said something about a toe tap or timing device. I

 don’t trust self reporting like that. I think it would be hard for him to say out loud to a reporter “I sucked because I was trying to do x better and I suck at trying to do x better.”

by Future Ed on Aug 24, 2009 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

this does get at one thing

that seems to me to be the most uncertain part of the whole theory…

…and that is the connection between his decline in plate discipline (in the first half of the season at least) and the decline in power. There obviously could be a causal relationship there, but like PT points out, there could be other things affecting Jack’s raw power.

That said, I’m still sticking with the perspective that I took away from PT’s and nevermoor’s comments above. Which is that the theory makes sense and there is a substantial amount of evidence to back it. So while it might not be proof positive, and nothing ever is really, it’s pretty convincing.

by colin on Aug 24, 2009 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

an article written is not immutable fact

who knows which came first, Cust talking to the coaching staff, or the staff approaching Cust? Perhaps he came to them saying, “My goal this year is to cut down on strikeouts. What approach do you suggest?”

And then he tried half of them, or some of them, or rotated between this and that.

Yet a report in the press cannot be assumed to be even 70% of the story. It may reflect 100% wrong “facts”, such as the current political somersaulting (no politics, no particulars, but…you know).

Bobby Crosby and Matt Holliday got some ‘great hitting tips’ from Mark McGwire before the season began. In ST, Crosby looked improved. Holliday never got his timing back (and lost a lot of power) until a month before he was traded, when he abandoned McGwire’s suggestions of “no leg lift”. That is the “story”.

Coincidence is not “evidence”.

"It is the mark of a truly intelligent person to be moved by statistics. " GB Shaw

by One won lost won on Aug 24, 2009 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

But the evidence shows that he changed his approach

And the stories suggest a reason.

You’re right that we can’t know why he changed his approach this year, but there is overwhelming evidence that he did, and that it backfired.

If he goes back to being Jack Cust, he should do better next year.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 24, 2009 1:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

THe question isn't who initiated it

the question was a new 2 strike approach done? With a follow up of did it work?

The evidence put forth by fangraphs suggests it was done and it didn’t work. Therefore, lets move on.

1) cust isn’t “figured out”
2) please leave him alone
3) strickout

by Future Ed on Aug 24, 2009 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

We agree, with one modification

3) strickout!!!!!!111

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 24, 2009 1:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

The question is whether it will be any different next year.

Having some idea of why Cust’s approach was changed gives us an idea of whether it’ll still be changed next year or if it will go back to how it was the year before.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 24, 2009 1:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Regardless even though he hasn't played well this year

Everidge is replacement level slop. Cust isn’t.

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

Both of you are right

Although, of course, we don’t have the SS to be very confident about Everidge.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 24, 2009 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

I would rather be in agreement with Ginger and Mary Ann

"If Vin Mazzaro comes anywhere near me with shaving cream he’s gonna be coming away with a bloody stump" – Dallas Braden

by doctorK on Aug 24, 2009 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

If you think the Professor is dreamy,

then I think you’re in agreement with both of them.

Or perhaps when you said “agreement”, you really meant “a sandwich”.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 24, 2009 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

mmmmm, Ginger and Mary Ann sandwich

"If Vin Mazzaro comes anywhere near me with shaving cream he’s gonna be coming away with a bloody stump" – Dallas Braden

by doctorK on Aug 24, 2009 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Yeah, there's no reason not to give Everidge another 70 PAs worth of rope to hang himself with

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 24, 2009 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

maybe he'll make a cool plant hanger...

macrame rules!

"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard

by Gaijin_Suketto on Aug 24, 2009 2:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

Coincidence most certainly IS evidence

Refutable evidence, but definitely evidence. Correlation doesn’t equal causation, but it’s usually the first step in the direction of proving causation.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 24, 2009 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

+1

Especially on your second point. Looking at the three-year sample of Cust data available, it’s far more reasonable to conclude that Cust is in decline. Instead (and amusingly), those predisposed to view Cust favorably because of their statistical bent are guilty of gross confirmation bias in claiming he’s such a good candidate to rebound. Moreover, they’re using something decidedly non-empirical as the basis of their argument.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Aug 25, 2009 12:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'll add

Since i posted a bit before reading everything, that I get the point re various statistical valuations of Cust’s performance this year (K-rate, swing rate, etc). Those making these arguments specifically aren’t entirely using something non-empirical for basis. However, Cust’s enormous success the first six weeks of the season under those constraints goes unexplained.

Of the two possible conclusions, I think it is more reasonable to believe that Cust won’t be getting better anytime soon.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Aug 25, 2009 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not really

It is far easier to look at his second season as closer to his true talent level than his first when you look at his MLE’s. That would suggest that he had one year playing above his head, one year around his talent level and another year when his back injury sapped his power and the coaching staff messed with his approach. When Custs swing patterns and patience returned to his more normal levels, he has hit like the Cust of the last two years with a lower ISO which considering the violent nature of his swing would easily be explained by a back injury. Regardless the point about Cust really had nothing to do with Cust, it had to do with Everidge who despite being a replacement level DH Mychael Urban wants to install him at that position for 100+ games at the expense of someone who is not i.e. Cust.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 25, 2009 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

See above

I’ll temper the strength of my claim given the other metrics available, but the idea that it’s the back, and the coaching staff, and other stuff that make him such a great rebound candidate is something I’m not comfortable buying. My educated guess is that Cust is a .800-.825 OPS guy from here on out, which is OK, but something that should be upgraded if at all possible.

I have no quibble with the idea that Everidge is unlikely to be that replacement, although there may not be much harm in finding out.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Aug 25, 2009 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

OPS is decieving

its his wOBA that matters and is going to be valuable even if he doesn’t get his slugging back.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 25, 2009 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

Pick your metric, any metric

Jack Cust is more likely to continue to get less good than he is to get as good as he was again.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Aug 25, 2009 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah, but Everidge is not likely to be as good as Cust is right now.

"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."

by mikev on Aug 25, 2009 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

Right, that's what I said above.

But he’s cheap enough that it might be worth seeing if we’re wrong.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Aug 25, 2009 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

Isnt't that what we're finding out right now?

"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."

by mikev on Aug 25, 2009 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

In a very small sample, yes.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Aug 25, 2009 6:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

Okay, but you realize that his minor league numbers do NOT show a guy who will be very good in the majors?

"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."

by mikev on Aug 25, 2009 10:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

Until this year, yes.

And this year he’s crushed all sorts of baseballs. What if he’s just turned the corner? If he can be the next Cust, we’re better off with him than with Cust himself, and Cust is going to cost a lot of money for a non-competitive team next year.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Aug 26, 2009 9:52 AM PDT up reply actions  

What are you defining as as good as he was?

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 25, 2009 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

2008

It’s utterly obvious he won’t be as good as 2007. Decent chance he won’t be as bad as this year—as I said above, something in the range of .800 to .825.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Aug 25, 2009 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

Wait, which is it?

Jack Cust has a .775 OPS this year. Is it that, or is it “800-825”? You’re talking about a difference of half a win to a full win, literally a millions-of-dollars difference.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 25, 2009 4:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

Right.

A little bit better than this year, but not as good as his .851 mark from 2008.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Aug 25, 2009 6:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think he's about halfway between...

his surface-level ’07 numbers and his ’09 numbers. So I feel ’08 is a pretty good snapshot of him.

Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.

by notsellingjeans on Aug 26, 2009 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

This statement...
One of the only true things in that paragraph is that Cust is going to become arbitration eligible at the end of the season and become less affordable, while Everidge is going to still be paid league minimum.

…brought something to mind that is roughly related.

Many people, including commentators and writers all over the country, seem to have this conclusion of the A’s… as soon as a player begins to make serious money they’re sent elsewhere. IF this is the organization’s approach then we never are going to be any good, are we? I mean, sure of late we have kept some players through their arb-eligible years, but if you’re going to rebuild and eventually compete then you need to actually keep the foundation and keep building on top of that… not continually take so many steps backward for money reasons.

General comment, not Cust-specific.

In 2008 I was watching a team that was rebuilding. In 2009 I feel like I'm watching a team that just sucks.

by UncleLeo on Aug 24, 2009 6:37 AM PDT reply actions  

It makes little sense for non-contending small-market teams

to keep anyone through their arbitration years. If they’re any good, their trade value will exceed their on-field value. If you’re in the playoff hunt, it’s a different story (and indeed, the A’s in 2000-2004 routinely kept players until they hit free agency, at which point they were then criticized for not re-signing them then).

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 24, 2009 9:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

Point taken, but...

…to use an analogy… building a house.

If great prospects are a team’s foundation, and contention is the 2nd story of a house, how does a team get to the second story if they keep tearing down the first story so as to not over-stress the foundation?

Or, another analogy… teenage years and growing up. Arbitration years are like the teenage years in growing from a kid to an adult… you don’t get there without the awkwardness and discomfort of going through the teenage years.

Don’t you just love analogies? ;-)

All the talk we routinely hear is that our great prospects are “under team control” for X-number of years, and people usually include arbitration years in that. I definitely agree that a good player’s trade value may exceed their (immediate) on-field value, especially if the team is not in contention right now, but this begs the question… what are your goals? To build a contender, or something else?

Does that mean to never make a trade when a good deal comes along, or you need a specific need? Of course not.

In 2008 I was watching a team that was rebuilding. In 2009 I feel like I'm watching a team that just sucks.

by UncleLeo on Aug 24, 2009 9:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

Well then,

this club will need to win it all as teenagers, then,

cause when they turn 18, they’re out the door!

"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard

by Gaijin_Suketto on Aug 24, 2009 11:06 AM PDT up reply actions  

They only want you when youre 17, when youre 21 youre no fun?

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 11:13 AM PDT up reply actions  

I love my electro/indie pop tis true.

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions  

Nice

I love ladytron an awful lot. Have you heard the band UV Protection? It’s like ladytron covering the B-52s

by bobnothing on Aug 24, 2009 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

Listening to them now...

very interesting. They remind me of The Client

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 12:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah, they're pretty good

Also, Duchess Says, from Montreal, are pretty awesome

by bobnothing on Aug 24, 2009 12:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

Do you go to Popscene in SF?

because that would just be too funny.

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

I do, now and then

I did more when I first moved into the city. But, I’m 30 years old now and I can’t take the pace so much any more. Still, I’ve seen some good shows there.

Actually, I’ll probably be going a couple of times in September, due to various people coming to visit, and so forth

by bobnothing on Aug 24, 2009 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

hahaha

Ive probably see you at some point then which is hilarious. You should go to the Limousines show on the 3rd, they are really good.

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 1:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah, there's a decent chance I'll be there on that date. We'll have to see

One of my friends is having a leaving do in Zeitgeist, and we all know how pints of gin and grapefruit can end up

by bobnothing on Aug 24, 2009 1:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ive never been as high as my friends on Zeitgeist

but I think that has to do with it being a pain and the ass to get to from my house via muni and if I drink I want to dance and its more of a Portland hang around and drink beer kinda place.

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I like it fine. I'm not far from there, so it's easy for me

I like it fine. I mean, there are bars I like more, but when people come visit I tend to bring them there as part of my introduction to the city..

by bobnothing on Aug 24, 2009 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

Zeitgeist in SF?

Love the place.

"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."

by mikev on Aug 24, 2009 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

Its a lot easier to get to now that I found the wiggle

but its an uphill ass bike ride home. That and public transportation sucks.

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ahh....

My bikes don’t have pedals. There’s the difference.

"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."

by mikev on Aug 24, 2009 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

Lack of pedals doesn't help when youre drunk

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well...

…in keeping with the analogy, if we use the 2000-2004 A’s as an example, it’s a good example of when we did keep most of the better “teenagers” (read: arb-eligible players) instead of trading them away and we most certainly did have every opportunity to win it all.

In 2008 I was watching a team that was rebuilding. In 2009 I feel like I'm watching a team that just sucks.

by UncleLeo on Aug 24, 2009 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

You must be my age.

In our day, when you turn 18 you’re out the door. Doesn’t seem to be the case any more.

Seems like now it’s commonplace for kids to still be living with their parents well into their 20s. Or if they’re in college it’s all paid by someone else. No real stigma attached either, so I guess that’s normal now.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 24, 2009 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well your generation screwed up our economy so we cant find jobs and move out :-P

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

"paying your own way through college" stopped being a viable option a long time ago

Private school tuition (exclusive of living expenses) is over $25,000 on average. Professional schools are considerably more.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 24, 2009 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

my school was $42k a year.

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

In which case you should do the logical thing

when a product is grossly overpriced and choose not to buy it.

College does very little to actually educate you or improve your future productivity in any career, and what little it does do could be done far more cost-effectively at a vocational school or just doing the reading and study at home on your own.

The economic function of college is not to actually improve your value, but rather to provide an expensive screening process whereby some individuals can be chosen above others. Essentially it’s a gigantic extortion scam which nearly everyone participates in because our society (and government) supports it.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 24, 2009 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

Try getting a good job without one it doesn't work for someone my age.

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 1:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Baloney.

You’re just drinking the Kool-Aid.

I’m not saying it’s not a disadvantage to not have a degree. It is. (And yes, I know this from personal experience.)

I’m just saying that someone has to stand up against a corrupt system. Why can’t it be you? Employers require a degree because they assume that intelligent people go to college. When enough intelligent people stop going to college, they will adjust to the new reality.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 24, 2009 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

yeah im not so worried about the others

I am worried about me im not going to disadvantage myself when I can avoid it.

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

OK, that's your prerogative.

Enjoy your student loan debt. And don’t expect my political support when the inevitable student loan bailout proposal comes along.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 24, 2009 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

One of the best ways to stimulate the economy

get rid of student loan debt.

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yes, it is.

And given your earlier comment about my generation messing up the economy, I assume you can understand why that would royally piss off those of us who had the decency to live within our means.

Which brings us back to “extortion”.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 24, 2009 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

Im going to stop before I get very political

back to baseball

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 1:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

Excellent idea.

I’m afraid I’ve already overstepped the line a little. Time to step back.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 24, 2009 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't think so but any time Im about to type Reagan here I try to stop myself

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

we're doing that?!

Where do I sign up?

Twitter went down today--if only there were some short, shallow, self-indulgent way to express my horror.-Stephen Colbert

by Leopold Bloom on Aug 24, 2009 6:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't think I can adequately respond to this without offending somebody

But I think I can say this:

Really? You think higher education is purely extortion? Really?

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 24, 2009 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not purely, but as a general

evaluation of the system as a whole, yes, I think that’s a fair characterization.

(And yes, of course, I’m well aware this is a radical view. It won’t be the first time I’ve been laughed at.)

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 24, 2009 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah,

you wonder when it hits critical mass. Even state schools are not cost effective.

I left the workforce for grad school and came out with more debt and slightly increased wages. (ALthough I think my wages are depressed by choice of field rather than a negative school impact, in otherwords, I could be making more but choose not to lose my job satisfaction)

by Future Ed on Aug 24, 2009 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

Every form of borrowing is a form of extortion

At least college education makes people smarter as a byproduct.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 24, 2009 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

I actually would disagree with that.

I don’t believe that college education makes people smarter.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 24, 2009 4:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

I agree with that

Its like baseball, intelligence is tools and inate, and knowledge is skills and something you can learn.

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 4:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

In an attempt to avoid a semantics argument

I very much believe that my college education taught me how to think better (i.e. more than just some useless crap about interesting moments in history). It certainly increased my knowledge. There is no way for me to assess whether it otherwise improved me.

That said, those gains (plus the practical benefits of a degree) are plenty worth it.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 24, 2009 4:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

I learned how to think with HS debate

which additionally gave me a cursory understanding of the world via the economist.

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 4:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yes, and college is one of many places where you can

learn them. One which happens to be a lot more expensive than most.

What you’re really paying for is (1) the degree, (2) a chance to spend four years living in a fun community with a whole lot of others of the same age and similar background (which does have value, in roughly the same way that a singles vacation cruise does), and (3) convenient access to the libraries.

And if you breakdown the expenses, the library privileges is a tiny part of it. Heck, when I was in my 20s I used to spend hours in the Boalt Law Library looking up cases and it didn’t cost me any more than bus fare to get there.

Today it’s even easier. There are a ton of really good lectures available for free on the Web. If your only goal is education, I don’t see why you need to go to college at all. I think you just go for the degree and the social experience. And there are a lot of ways of getting a respectable degree without paying to be a full-time resident student.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 24, 2009 4:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

my take on your comment

is the best and the brightest will not necessarily have access to college in the near future. I think big forward thinking corps may draft people out of highschool to train to be better employees without college. Kinda like what happened in the 70-80s tech boom and repeated in the 90s

by Future Ed on Aug 24, 2009 6:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

You really seem to be generalizing your own experiences to everyone

Maybe you have the internal drive to complete the equivalent of a college education on your own without any ulterior reward or structure. That’s great. I know I don’t, and I suspect the proportion of people similar to me is about 50 times the proportion of people similar to you…

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 24, 2009 6:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I guess that's a fair point.

But perhaps you’ll concede that, my own radicalism aside, the economics of post-secondary education is pretty screwed up.

Incidentally, I don’t actually have the drive to “complete the equivalent of a college education”. I have the drive to read a lot of books and learn about a lot of things. There’s a whole lot of stuff that’s part of a college education that I don’t have any interest in doing. But that’s the part that I think isn’t worthwhile anyway.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 24, 2009 6:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

The economics of PSE is screwed up because the entire primary ed system

and to some extent, also the secondary ed system, are severely screwed up in this country. It shouldn’t take 17 years to complete a reasonable liberal arts education.

As it stands, most American kids learn little or nothing between 3rd grade and the beginning of high school. College is then tapped to frantically try to patch over this hole, which it does a decent (but expensive) job of.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 24, 2009 7:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

oh man

do I agree with this. I realize that socialization is important, but other than that kids learn approximately nothing in middle school.

by colin on Aug 24, 2009 7:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

Egg drop test = most valuable thing Ive learned ever

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 7:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

I learned what doesn't impress girls.

"Surely these gents are talking about the dashing rookie campaign of southpaw Jamie Moyer. Now, that cat is on the up and up." JLaff, in 1929.

by travdog6 on Aug 25, 2009 12:31 AM PDT up reply actions  

this whole thread

has been maybe the best discussion I’ve read on AN in something like three years

by harenshair on Aug 24, 2009 8:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

I have a rather different view, but

I don’t think this is the appropriate place to get into it.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 24, 2009 10:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

I seem to be doomed to arguments by analogy in this thread

(I hate arguments by analogy, in general.)

In this case, though, it is actually somewhat apropos, because “tools” are not, in fact, “innate,” at least not purely so, and neither is intelligence. Even something as obvious as, you know, feeding your children on a regular basis makes a measurable impact on both athletic ability and intelligence.

Intelligence is autocatalytic— it reinforces itself. The more you have, the more you want it.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 24, 2009 6:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

Clarification

The above post is not meant to imply that parents who fail to feed their children are necessarily bad parents. Most childhood malnutrition is the result of widespread institutional poverty, not individual neglect.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 24, 2009 6:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

iglew, I would say the problem with that statement

is that it implies “smart” to be a single thing measured as something that can discretely “increase” or “decrease.” I don’t even see “smarter” and “dumber” as something you can get — maybe “smarter” in one way, but not in general.

You can become more emotionally intelligent, you can know more facts, you can understand a wider variety of Scientific theories, you can build more muscle memory, you can increase your vocabulary, you can gain more “hands on” experience in a field — and those are just 6 of many examples that might, in some way, suggest being “smarter,” and through college you tend to gain some of these more than you tend to gain others.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Aug 24, 2009 4:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ive seen people drink and smoke their way to dumber

but the rest of that I agree with.

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 4:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I suppose that anything you do that

actively harms your brain cells could be said to make you “dumber,” period.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Aug 24, 2009 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

Or we can do the equally logical thing

Which is pay for something (a college degree) which most of society deems, if nothing else, extremely useful, and which many fields absolutely require; and then not pay for something (shelter) that most parents are readily willing to provide for their children while they finish paying for the degree.

Outman, fighter of the Hitman, champion of the K, he's a master of scoreless innings and friendship for everyone.

by walk off bunt on Aug 24, 2009 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

Plug:

If you (or any of the readers) are actually interested in this issue, I would recommend reading the book Generation Debt, or getting ahold of the PBS miniseries which was made out of the book.

Bottom line: It is fiscally insane for many, if not most, of today’s college graduates to even consider living somewhere other than home.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 24, 2009 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

Also, a uniquely american idea that children SHOULDN'T live at home

Some other cultures would be shocked that it was even an option.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 24, 2009 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

Also true

I’d say probably a majority of first-world cultures more or less expect children to live at home until marriage.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 24, 2009 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

at my graduation party a friends aunt beat everybody at beer pong

true story.

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

did said aunt sleep with one of the graduates?

Twitter went down today--if only there were some short, shallow, self-indulgent way to express my horror.-Stephen Colbert

by Leopold Bloom on Aug 24, 2009 6:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

No but I saw her nice at AN day.

The kid from our school thats on Real World this season did bang her daughter during on of the games.

Fun times.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 7:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well, assuming that you actually have a parent

with a home with a spare room.

When I was 19 my mother was living out of her van traveling around the world. When I was 23 she was living in an ashram.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 24, 2009 4:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

is your mom Jewel or Madonna?

Twitter went down today--if only there were some short, shallow, self-indulgent way to express my horror.-Stephen Colbert

by Leopold Bloom on Aug 24, 2009 6:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

Here's the skinny on team control

Because of the way arbitration works, players play for 6-7 years and get paid, on the average, about 1.8 years’ worth of salary (actually a little more because a few are Super Twos, but let’s not muddy the waters overmuch here). The thing is, all of those 1.8 years are in the final 3 (4 for Super Twos) seasons. In those years, players are playing at a sizable discount, but not at virtual league minimum. The really dirt-cheap early career players are the ones that free up your budget to work on other positions.

It can seem like a carousel when the team is constantly churning and churning during rebuilding years, but the alternative is often worse. Look at the Brewers, whose franchise is suddenly lost at sea after making the playoffs last season. The goal for small-market teams is— has to be— to line up enough cost-controlled talent at the same time to make a playoff run of a few seasons. If you’re under that threshold, you have to trade off your good players for more prospects in order to try again soon. You can’t rely on having a “foundation,” because in the ruthlessly competitive market of baseball, that foundation will usually rapidly become overpaid and mediocre. (The exception would be truly superstar/Hall of Fame-level position players who can be expected to remain stars through their mid-30s. Of course [coughChavezcough] even those players are not sure things…)

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 24, 2009 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

Nails it

Which is why the way MLB is set up is so absurd. Asking for all the stars to line up so a team can make a two-year run before breaking apart is ridiculous, and the reason why you can see five or six of the top eight teams in salary making the playoffs on a yearly basis, and the one or two other slots getting filled in a round-robin style.

As someone who pays to see games year after year, this kind of situation is absurd. I can argue that because I actually have season tickets, I have a right to see my team at least try to win every game. But Paul is right here: the only time my team will EVER actually make the playoffs is if it is exploded every two or three years and prospects replaced until at some point the magic dust works, and the team is good for a couple of years. f

In fact, the ONLY time the magic dust will work for more than a year or two is if you have a situation like the A’s had, with three Aces going at once for four or five straight years. We may have that now with Anderson, Cahill and Gio, and Wallace and Carter for ballast, but it’s a suck situation.

by richwol1 on Aug 24, 2009 5:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

It does pose a unique challenge, I'll give it that much credit

and I suspect that’s part of what drives people like Beane. That said, I’d sure as hell rather things be fair than unfair.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 24, 2009 6:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

In the Brewers case last year...

…they knew they were sacrificing the future for that one run. The reason they chose to do so is debatable, but I believe they felt immense pressure from their fans to give them something… anything… in the form of a post season appearance that they had not seen in 26 years.

While just getting in was great for them for a momentary thrill, cooler heads in their front office should have prevailed. I tend to believe that the A’s goals are a little more long-term than that.

In 2008 I was watching a team that was rebuilding. In 2009 I feel like I'm watching a team that just sucks.

by UncleLeo on Aug 25, 2009 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

All it takes is...

…one crack in the most expensive portion of the foundation – Eric Chavez – to significantly affect things.

Chavez’s absence the last two years an effect on condending and has had a cascading impact on roster makeup.

And, of course, the broken record in me will once again yammer about how the paying fanbase is really what’s letting this organization down.

by LowcountryJoe on Aug 24, 2009 3:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

Fire Urban and Geren...

ad then we’ll take the white house!!!

YEAH

"What a joke." ~ Booby Crosby

by MMunoz33 on Aug 24, 2009 6:58 AM PDT reply actions  

:: Headbutt! ::

The Ultimate Opportunist

by Rated-R Superstar on Aug 24, 2009 7:26 AM PDT up reply actions  

what skill is most valued in a beat writer?

I’ve worked on some sports desks. The number one thing a beat writer has to do is produce readable, accurate copy without too many spelling mistakes and typos by deadline (say 15 minutes after a game ends, with another take post-locker-room interviews an hour later) because there simply isn’t time to make corrections on night games. Knowledge of the sport, inside sources, ability to get quotes, general writing ability are other important skills, but none is as important to getting out the product.

by vk on Aug 24, 2009 7:41 AM PDT reply actions  

Agreed with that, but at the same time...

…I see exactly where DFA is coming from with his points. And this wasn’t for a newspaper but rather Urban’s own blog. Of course he can go into as much or as little detail as he wants to but there is a key thing to note on the first point about Buck:

Urban appears to be trying to present it as scouts liking what they’re seeing so far without actually talking to any scouts that have SEEN Buck’s changes. It comes off like Urban just told them about the change and likely painted it in a positive light, and here we are.

As for Everidge, if Urban thinks he has a better future with the A’s then that’s his prerogative, but there has been very little evidence that Everidge would be a bigger threat in the lineup than Cust based on a few weeks of Everidge being up here. He was raking in the minors but for the most part he’s struggled up here. Sure, Everidge would be cheaper than Cust, but as much as I’ve been critical of Cust’s actual hitting prowess in the past, he is still a bigger threat than I see Everidge becoming. Everidge is a nice story but at this point that’s where it begins and ends and the team would not be better with him replacing Cust.

As for UZR and all, I would be one of the people who tends to say “watch the game” at some point to those who seem to bury their noses in stat pages, but that doesn’t mean Urban’s right about this one. He paints it so it’s easy to say “Yeah, boy that Tex sure has helped them defensively.” Well, look who he replaced: Giambi (plus Sexson and Betemit). Even if Tex just looked average it’d still be a big upgrade over what they had.

I’m rushing to do a few things this morning and just came across this (not sure if it’s already been pointed out here): http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/seeing-and-uzr-and-teixeira

Anyway, in the end I agree with DFA regarding his criticisms of Urban. It was lazy writing on Urban’s part and while it may satisfy the casual fan it’s got holes in it as far as people like us are concerned.

Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog

by Flashfire on Aug 24, 2009 8:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

Agree with all of this

Especially b/c it reads to me that Urban’s taking his shot at UZR not because he has any inherent skepticism but because a fellow beat writer already took that shot. Us vs. them stuff like that is unnecessary.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 24, 2009 9:05 AM PDT up reply actions  

Nevermoor, Flashfire, DFA agree que end of the universe :-P


Very well written.

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 9:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

Son of a

it showed up in the preview and when it posted, but upon refresh it disappeared those god damn tricky bastards.

Lets try this version

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 9:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

Still no on my end.

Link?

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 24, 2009 9:37 AM PDT up reply actions  

Its showing up in the preview and then disappears

the first one shows up as a different picture. It was a great picture of Alderaan exploding

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 9:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

Still not working for me

I can see the link is http://www.dvdactive.com/images/editorial/screenshot/2009/8/alderaan1997.jpg but even when I copy/paste it in another tab it’s giving me their hotlinking image.

Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog

by Flashfire on Aug 24, 2009 9:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

"26 year old journeyman don't magically get significantly better."

I’m not here to defend or attack Mr. Urban.

However, if the quote above is true then where the fuck did Jack Cust come from?

Point is trying to bury Everidge as an option at DH because he’s a minor league journeyman while defending Cust is irony at its finest.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Aug 24, 2009 9:19 AM PDT reply actions  

That's true... to an extent

The difference being that Cust was a prospect and his “failure to pan out” was mostly just that organizations didn’t realize his performance was as good as it was.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 24, 2009 9:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

Cust was a 1st round pick back in 1997

The A’s gave him a shot back in 2005 (his age 26 season, interestingly enough) but passed on keeping him around the next season. Cust got his 1st extended shot with the A’s as a 28 year old in 2007, by that time he was officially labeled a minor league journeyman. I’m glad he worked out for the A’s but his original draft status does not change the fact that by the time he got his shot with the A’s he had lost the prospect label.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Aug 24, 2009 9:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

Like I said, I agree with your observation to a point

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 24, 2009 9:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

Cust had a good minor league track record

Up until this year Everidge has never produced anything that would suggest he would be an average major league hitter.

by DeJay on Aug 25, 2009 4:09 AM PDT up reply actions  

No - I am doing exactly what I said

I am putting more weight in Cust’s good performances over 11 minor league seasons from the age of 18, than I am in Everidge’s one good season aged 26.

by DeJay on Aug 26, 2009 4:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

He hurt his wrist and had his only bad season to that point.

The A’s also though enough of him to get him back in 07

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 9:37 AM PDT up reply actions  

And

Frank Thomas was verging during the 05-06 off season to sign with the A’s. There was less need to keep Cust for 06.

by Future Ed on Aug 24, 2009 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

Thats a good point.

Im of the belief that Cust didn’t magically go from being an OK hitter to a great one but rather went from not having playing time to having playing time.

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah

That was the second part of my point above: his "failure to pan out" was mostly just that organizations didn’t realize his performance was as good as it was.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 24, 2009 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yes

Same with Nelson Cruz and Carlos Pena. All of those guys were good enough all along— they just kept getting cut off at the knees before they could prove it.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 24, 2009 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

So what was the key to their eventual success?

I won’t argue that the natural talent wasn’t present but I doubt that these guys just needed the opportunity to face big league pitching to perform. Several teams gave these guys looks before they finally broke through, I suspect that make-up was part of the issue.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Aug 24, 2009 5:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

The key to their eventual success was "not being really unlucky in small sample sizes one more time"

I suspect the same thing will happen soon with Brandon Wood (hopefully after the Angels have bailed on him), and we will look back on this year and ask “what the **** were the Angels doing for so long?”

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 24, 2009 6:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

I question that, though

It sounds as if you’re saying that Pena & Cruz & Cust all failed to achieve success earlier because someone in the organization they played for didn’t like them. I might buy that if they had spent their entire career in one place but Pena and Cust bounced around a lot while Cruz needed 2 years to convince the Rangers to give him a long look.

It just feels like you’re placing all the blame on the teams, without considering that the players themselves were deficient in some way.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Aug 24, 2009 7:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

Cust was around in an era that didn't value skills he had

So I am much more willing to believe that argument.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 7:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

Getting waived is the baseball equivalent of a felony conviction on your resume

Maybe it wasn’t really correct, but the stigma is going to attaint you anyway.

It is very difficult for players to shake the “AAAA” label. About the only way it happens is for someone to hit so well over a short callup period that the team is more or less forced to continue employing them long enough for them to develop a large sample of good performance. It often takes years for that to happen, and sometimes by the time it might have, the player is past his prime and isn’t good enough anymore anyway.

And yes, I’m basically placing all the blame on the teams. Have you looked at Cust and Cruz’s career minor league numbers? They’re insane. Cruz had 149 home runs and an OPS of over .900. Cust was even better— 200 homers and an OPS of .947. He had 100 professional home runs before his 24th birthday.

Everidge’s numbers are nice enough but not even close to on a level with those guys.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 24, 2009 7:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

The Tigers gave Pena 1400+ at bats

And he gave them a sub-.800 OPS in return.

Cruz got 437 at bats from the Rangers in 06 & 07 (300+ in 07) and managed about a .660 OPS. Can you honestly fault the Rangers for not tripping all over themselves to give him another shot before the end of 2008? And for a guy known not to give extra credit for being young relative to the rest of the league you seem to be overlooking the fact that Cruz was pounding AAA pitching during his age 25-27 years.

Sure, Cust put up some great numbers but he’s also a hack in the outfield and neither AZ or COL had the option to DH him. When he got to the Orioles his minor league numbers weren’t anything special. Same with his first go around in the A’s system. He raked for the Padres but again, his poor defense was an issue.

All I’m saying is, it’s not like all these organizations were trying not to win baseball games. Cruz got a legit shot in 2007 and he failed to perform. Cust had 3 consecutive, average at best, years in the Baltimore and Oakland systems when a strong minor league showing could have earned him big league playing time. Pena had 1600 big league at bats before he broke out with the Rays in 2007.

A little personal responsibility seems to be in order here.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Aug 24, 2009 9:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

Pena to me is the outlier

Jack Custs’ OPS in AAA

Age 22 .940
Age 23 .930
Age 24 .848 + 878 in the bigs
Age 25 .791
Age 26 .840
Age 27 1.016
Age 28 1.155

The real question is why Cust didn’t get an a real opportunity in 2004? Probably because he fell on his face running home against the Yankees. Now 2004 he had a bad year at the plate and I really cant figure out why since BABIP data isn’t available on baseball reference and Fangraphs didn’t track minors data back then. Cust had 1 down year and was hurt and had a mediocre year after that. But really the Oriels shafted him after the Dbacks gave up on him for only posting OPSes above 900 in AAA.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 10:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

The Diamondbacks could make an argument for never letting him get a chance

because his defense was so bad, and they don’t have a DH spot to put him at. And even in the age of advanced statistics, a lot of GMs (and coaches and fans don’t want to see a guy butchering fly balls, striking out, and putting up a .230ish batting average. Strickouts, DFA, strickouts. That said, I’m not one of those fans.

If you think Billy Beane is a bad GM, I hate you and find you stupid.

by NateHST on Aug 24, 2009 10:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

But his defense isn't THAT bad

His value as a DH is certainly not higher than it is with him as a corner OF, and it’s probably a bit lower, especially when you consider that he has tended to be one of those players who hits better when he’s playing the field.

It’s reasonable that he didn’t get a shot in 2004-2005, because the wrist injury was clearly affecting his performance to the point where he wasn’t a serious option. I can’t figure out why he didn’t get a legitimate look from the Padres, though.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 25, 2009 8:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

Pena

Not that much better now than he was then. He gave the Tigers about 1600 PAs of .350+ wOBA (110+ ops+ his entire tenure with the Tigers), and good defense. He was a good, certainly not great, player long before the Rays got a hold of him.

by AgitationStation on Aug 24, 2009 11:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

a guy known not to give extra credit for being young relative to the rest of the league

Can you stop repeating this? It’s factually false.

What I’ve said, for the record, is that I don’t (in general) like prospects who are posting TERRIBLE numbers even if they’re extremely young for their level, because it suggests that their team is mishandling them and decreases their upside potential.

If a guy’s posting league-average hitting in AA at 19, that’s obviously a vast improvement on a guy posting league-average hitting there at 24.

All that aside, it’s fairly irrelevant to this post, because there is no real “negative ARL” with respect to AAA. It’s not possible to be “too old for” a AAA league.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 25, 2009 8:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

Stop repeating...?

I haven’t spoke to you in 6 freakin’ months!

And just ‘cause you irked me, I’d like to say that you’re last paragraph is technically true but essentially pointless. “Real” prospects typically keep their label until they turn 25, after which terms like journeyman or AAAA player or organizational fodder come into vogue. When a hitter is 27 and entering his 6th season in AAA he’s supposed to knock the crap out of the ball. If he doesn’t, and he doesn’t have the glove to compensate, then he’s going to be out of a job.

Cust had an excellent opportunity to carve a niche for himself when he was in the Baltimore and Oakland organizations and he blew it. He didn’t hit like he had when he was with Arizona or like he would when he became a Padres farmhand.

For a guy who’s meal ticket is his bat, he didn’t get it done 2003 – 2005.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Aug 25, 2009 10:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

Dude had a 875 OPS in the Bigs with the O's

in the only meaningful big league sample size he had at that point.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 25, 2009 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions  

6 months? Doubt it's been that long

Anyway, you’ve said the same thing more than once in the past, regardless of exactly when it was… and I wanted to set the record straight on my actual views. That’s all.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 25, 2009 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

I seem to recall you having looser standards...

Then again, who didn’t when we were in college?

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Aug 25, 2009 5:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

At some point "looser" completely overtakes "standards"

Or so I hear

(consider that an easter-egg to ruin the day of whoever tries to read all of this)

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 25, 2009 5:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

Maybe I did when I first signed up here... but I knew a lot less about baseball then...

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 25, 2009 5:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

Did Cust REALLY get significantly better or did a team like the A's finally just give him the chance at a couple full years in the bigs?

He’d been mashing in the minors for mostly full seasons between 1999 and 2002 (ages 20 to 23, 100+ games played down there each year), and he got roughly 70 ABs in the bigs in 2002 and 2003. Then he had just one AB in 2004 and 3 in 2006 while continuing to put up pretty solid numbers in the minors (2004, in Ottawa at age 25 was a pretty down year for him).

The weird thing is the A’s had seemed to covet him for a little while – I’d remembered talk of him while he was in the Baltimore system in particular – and had him in Sacramento all of 2005 (age 26) and he had another decent year before before signing as a free agent with the San Diego organization. Even they just left him in Portland where he had one of his best Minor League years in 2006 before the A’s purchased his contract from the Padres about a year and a half after he signed with them (May of 2007), leading to him finally getting regular time in the bigs at age 28.

His path was not like Everidge’s at all except for them playing well at basically every level in the Minors. In Cust’s case, he bounced around between a few different organizations but it wasn’t until the A’s got him for the second time that he found a home in the Majors. Even then, the A’s made that trade mainly because Piazza got hurt.

Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog

by Flashfire on Aug 24, 2009 9:29 AM PDT up reply actions  

Lost the comment I'd been writing!

Cust had been in AAA for 7 years with 5 different organizations before he got a shot with the A’s in 2007. That’s pretty much the definition of journeyman.

I’m not arguing Cust vs. Everidge, I think there’s a place for both on the A’s 2010 roster because I truly believe Everidge can act as Olmedo Seanz 2.0… only with better control of the strike zone. I just think its silly to scoff at Everidge for being limited ‘cause he’s a journeyman when Websters was considering using an image of Jack Cust with the definition of the word in their 2008 edition!

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Aug 24, 2009 9:48 AM PDT up reply actions  

Wait whaaa?

You think Everidge can be better than this? And what does “better control of the strike zone” mean? Seanz only had 40 K/season.

If Everidge ever puts up a 130 OPS+ I’ll eat my hat. Seanz did it twice, with a lot of other good years.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 24, 2009 10:02 AM PDT up reply actions  

You're right, I should have said "draw more walks"

And I probably had a little too much 2001 on my mind.

Basically, I think Everidge can be another Saenz.

And what’s with all the hat eating on this site?

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Aug 24, 2009 10:25 AM PDT up reply actions  

PT's back

consider it an homage

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 24, 2009 10:28 AM PDT up reply actions  

Well considering that Everidge has only been with one organization

calling him a journeyman was sloppy on my part. I guess it should have been better to say that 26 year olds who start the year in AA don’t magically improve there wOBA .040 pts, which is what it would take for Everidge to become a craptastic DH rather than an abomination that hurts the A’s every time he plays.

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 11:18 AM PDT up reply actions  

Everidge is most certainly not a "journeyman"

His problem is, in fact, that he took so long to “journey” out of AA Midland…

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 24, 2009 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

That was poor wording on my part.

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

This is 100% accurate.

Good post.

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

Two things
Now ZIPS rest of the season projections shows Cust getting much of his power back and hitting with a .360 wOBA the rest of the way, suggesting that next year he will likely rebound.

ZIPS doesn’t really suggest he’ll rebound next year. It just suggests that three quarters of a season only allows projection models to change their underlying true talent estimation so much. Cust will probably rebound next year (although his career trend is not good), but ZIPS would have said the same thing about Zito early in his Giants career.

SOMETHING BIS DOES WHILE WATCHING THE GAME

Quoted for emphasis. Not only does BIS watch the game, they watch it with dramatically more detail than any fan or sportswriter. The “watch the game, morons” criticism might apply in some cases, it absolutely doesn’t here.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 24, 2009 9:27 AM PDT reply actions  

Ha, I was just writing something about the first point you make there

To my understanding, ZIPS tries to predict future performance by regression to the mean; in other words, if a player is playing poorly, it will suggest that the player will bounce back, and if a player is having a career year, then vice versa.

Of course, there are aging / historical factors involved that make it more complex than a simple regression analysis, but it seems to me that what it doesn’t take into account are radical changes in production that are based on changes in talent (something like, for example, Jack Cust permanently changing his approach to make himself worse at baseball) because these things simply don’t happen very often. They are, however, permanent.

Personally, I think (hope?) Jack Cust will bounce back next year, but I don’t think that it’s safe to assume that because ZiPS says so, it’s going to happen, in this case, certainly.

Now, if I’ve totally misinterpreted what ZiPS does, please correct me

by bobnothing on Aug 24, 2009 9:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

Youre first comment is correct

rather I should have said that ZIPs suggests that if he regressed to the mean his performance would improve, therefore, looking at next year his production is likely to regress to a higher level if he returns to his old approach.

On your second point I think the insult is “watch the game morans” rather than what you wrote :-P

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

Good read

It appears to me that Byg Twyt* would be happier covering the Gnats than the A’s, so maybe MLB can do everybody a favor and reassign him.

*thanks monkeyball

"If Vin Mazzaro comes anywhere near me with shaving cream he’s gonna be coming away with a bloody stump" – Dallas Braden

by doctorK on Aug 24, 2009 9:32 AM PDT reply actions  

Agree 100000%

….I used to think it would help with more A’s fans jumping on board, but seemingly it has had the opposite effect: I despise hearing him on KNBR and change the channel asap!

"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."

"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff

by ST on Aug 24, 2009 10:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

Go easy on Urban

he’s an alchoholic, remember? (that interview…..anyone?)

"Sometimes Joe (morgan) doesn't like facts to get in the way of his opinions."- billy beane
"That was a great pick...if this was 2002" Me, to guy who selected Barry Zito in a fantasy draft
www.27ClubPeak.blogspot.com

by harendaman365 on Aug 24, 2009 9:35 AM PDT reply actions  

this one

http://www.athleticsnation.com/2009/1/26/736521/an-visits-with-mlb-com-s-m

"Sometimes Joe (morgan) doesn't like facts to get in the way of his opinions."- billy beane
"That was a great pick...if this was 2002" Me, to guy who selected Barry Zito in a fantasy draft
www.27ClubPeak.blogspot.com

by harendaman365 on Aug 24, 2009 9:37 AM PDT reply actions  

don't read urban's blog, problem solved

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones."
-BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Aug 24, 2009 9:46 AM PDT reply actions  

I don't usually but his access is enviable and give him some value.

Though clearly he is pissing it away.

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

The big problem is that he's always been more interested in making everyone know how much access to players he gets

and not actually utilizing that access to provide his readers with useful content.

"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."

by mikev on Aug 24, 2009 11:46 AM PDT up reply actions  

Right, the whole I called up my buddy Travis Buck shtick doesn't do me much good

if he doesn’t tell me why he is being sent to the dog house.

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

Those two points are very closely linked, you see? ;)

People like PaulThomas and DFA don’t get to become beat writers (I’m not suggesting they’d want to be).

I used to be a sportswriter on a small-town, local level. Ultimately, you’re beholden to the athletes and the coaches – you need to be able to have a working relationship with them in order to do your job. You need their access, or you’re worthless to your paper. Conversely, your sources don’t need you at all to get paid.

Unfortunately, that power relationship puts the sportswriter (well, for me it did anyway) in the position where you have to kiss up to people who don’t necessarily deserve such treatment, in order to get an interview and do your job.

That’s not much of a sacrifice for a guy like “Big Urb” who aspired to be a professional ballplayer himself, thinks like the average ballplayer, and probably enjoys status as being sort of “one of the guys”.

But again, I can’t stress this enough: “Sports beat writer” is not a career for someone who wants to ask thoughtful, probing questions, or re-think the status quo, as guys like DFA and PaulThomas are wont to do. Athletes are more likely to give interviews to people who remind them of themselves – big, easy-going, former athletes like Urban.

I think you just have to accept what both parties bring – the access (Urban), and the analysis (blogs) without expecting too much from either. They’re practically mutually exclusive by nature.

It’s also worth noting that Urban wrote this on his blog. He holds himself to a lower standard of veracity on his blog – the writing is quicker, slanted with opinion, and it goes unchecked.

Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.

by notsellingjeans on Aug 24, 2009 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions   5 recs

Give me access and I bet I could do a pretty good job as a beat writer

my game wraps would be pretty much the same but my off day pieces would be very different.

The problem with Urban is he doesn’t ask any good questions. Like Hey Travis why is the org shafting you?

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 12:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

because there is NO UPSIDE to that answer

see what “notsellingjeans” is talking about…ACCESS! The cleverness, the insight to a writer’s questions is NOT what counts.

What good would it do Buck to give ANY answer to the question “Why is the org shafting you?”?
Just pound out a good scenario that would result for Travis Buck, for Travis answering truthfully, or falsely, that question. IMO, none exists.

Then, whatever happens to Buck, the other players take note, and your next question to Dana Eveland, etc. gets the inevitable, “We just pull our pants on one leg at a time.” answer.

You should read “Summer of ’49” by the late (so unfortunate..) David Halberstam. He profiles a few sportswriters in the book.

"It is the mark of a truly intelligent person to be moved by statistics. " GB Shaw

by One won lost won on Aug 24, 2009 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

Slusser has taken some pretty good shots at the A's this year

and is an infinitely better journalist than Urban.

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

There's a happy medium, though, and Urban seems to have no desire to find it.

You probably don’t remember me from whatever tailgate it was that we met at. Regardless, it’s VERY much possible for a person (or, even, a beat writer) to look at stats, talk about them when writing colums, etc.

Urban did the opposite. He went out of his way to talk down stats he did not understand, playing up the “stereotypical jock” side of things by poking fun at the “nerdy” statistics.

I just don’t understand WHY he chooses to. It’s fully possible to be “one of the guys” and also write good columns. It’s fully possible to talk about UZR or wOBA as well as drink a 6 pack of IPA and a shot of Jack Daniels while tailgating and cooking 18 ears of corn and 4 packages of Bratwurst before a game. I know. I did it.

"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."

by mikev on Aug 24, 2009 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

I witnessed it and it was awesome

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

This comment concerns me a great deal

You didn’t talk with your mouth full, did you?

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Aug 24, 2009 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I did.

"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."

by mikev on Aug 24, 2009 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

I DO remember you, mikev

I very much enjoyed our conversation at last year’s AN. I am disappointed that I missed you taking shots of JD and Bratwurst this year. :)

FWIW, I think that you would be a very good beat writer, in part because you have a good combo of those traits you describe.

Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.

by notsellingjeans on Aug 24, 2009 9:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

Damn, should we hug now?

Of course, I mean just one of those jock-style shoulder bump/back slap type hugs.

"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."

by mikev on Aug 24, 2009 9:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

"back" slap

Don’t think we don’t know what you mean.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 24, 2009 10:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

why stop there?

Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.

by notsellingjeans on Aug 24, 2009 11:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

NOW we're talkin *swoon*

"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."

by mikev on Aug 25, 2009 7:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

You don't think his access and his stat-disdain are correlated?

I do.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 24, 2009 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

There are others that don't

Kevin Goldstien, Neyer, and Prozanski come to mind.

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 1:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

Isn't that a very different sort of access?

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 24, 2009 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

front office/scout rather than player?

Prozanski is a beat writer I believe.

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yes, that's what I was thinking.

If Posnanski is indeed a beat writer, then I would classify him with people like Slusser.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 24, 2009 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

The beatwriter for the Pirates is amazing.

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

I used to respect Urban...

since he gives some insight into the A’s clubhouse, but recently this has trended away from journalism to more opinionated fodder. Further compounding this is that it seems a bit unethical for him to host a Giants pregames/postgames on KNBR all the while writing about the A’s as if he is the defacto reporter? Look I’m all for the man making a buck, but WTF is up with that…..

"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."

"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff

by ST on Aug 24, 2009 10:36 AM PDT reply actions  

I don't see how it's unethical at all

Covering the A’s doesn’t mean he can’t cover the Giants as well.

Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog

by Flashfire on Aug 24, 2009 10:48 AM PDT up reply actions  

Urban should just admit that he's Buck's secret agent...

"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard

by Gaijin_Suketto on Aug 24, 2009 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions  

I am completely fine with him doing Giants work

Dude is just trying to feed his family and I sure as hell would do Giants work if they gave it to me.

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah, exactly

He’s a working journalist, he can’t afford to have loyalties like fans do. In fact, I’d go so far as to say that I’d rather a journalist writing about a team I support were not a fan of them, thus to be more objective

by bobnothing on Aug 24, 2009 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

i was just day-dreaming

and i imagined getting to tell urban he is a bad writer and he shouldn’t be double-dipping with the gnats and A’s right to his face… and then day-dream urban responded:

“yeah, but there are more A’s fans in the world than there are members of AN”

and he was correct, so i woke up and wiped the drool from my face.

i agree with all of the criticisms or urban, especially ST’s bit about how his writing is moving further from “journalism”, but it reminds me of the thought i kept getting hit with in my marketing class this summer: i am an outlier / we are outliers. the prof would be talking about these great methods to gauge people’s interest in a product, all of these surveys, and then advertising methods to get them interested, and incentives like running a sale and blah blah blah, and i would say “yeah but that wouldn’t work, and i’ll tell you why”. but before i would say it out loud, i would remember the other 95% of the public, and thus, why it would work.

i think AN should nominate one of our own to suggest to MLB and the A’s as the new beat writer. it would be a legitimate request/suggestion due to urb already working on gnats games; just claim he’s overworked and we have just the person to pick up his slack with the A’s.

by jlanning17 on Aug 24, 2009 11:03 AM PDT reply actions  

I already said it on another thread,

but I still think the term “acronym stats” is hillarious. Its like Urban’s saying we shouldn’t hold it against him for not understanding stats that are trying so damn hard to conceal themselves. In any case, if its acronyms Urban is having trouble with, I doubt even Henry Chadwick could help him, much less Michel Litchman.

Bob Garen is incontinent

by Aufheben on Aug 24, 2009 11:23 AM PDT reply actions  

Exactly

I don’t believe in that underwater breathing nonsense because that scuba acronym is so difficult.

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions  

He should try a HALO jump

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 24, 2009 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions  

make him give up his cd player

since there is a whole lot of Light Amplification through Stimulated Emission of Radiation going on in there

by colin on Aug 24, 2009 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions  

What is a Halo jump.

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

Oh, just a little something

People who don’t understand acronyms might have trouble with.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 24, 2009 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions  

I thought it was a reference to the video game

Learn something new every day.

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

Quick Note on UZR:

It averages player stats relative to the performance of others at their position, in the current year.

I would say that 95% of the people who criticize UZR don’t know this fact.

Why that is significant:

Teixiera could literally be performing at exactly the same level as year’s previous defensively, and he would grade out slightly worse if the rest of the league’s first-base defense had improved. And since all of MLB is beginning to better understand and prioritize defense, it would make sense intuitively if first base defense was improving leaguewide.

Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.

by notsellingjeans on Aug 24, 2009 12:30 PM PDT reply actions  

I thought I covered that
Finally, it is likely that a couple of things happened because the sample of fielders is low and the fielding isn’t an abstract number it is compared to other fielders, it is likely that Teixiera is an averagish 1bman that got a bit of luck and the other players last year that he was compared to weren’t as bad as a whole, for example you didn’t have Giambi playing twice as many innings this year.

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 12:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

I like reading both Michael Urban and DFA

Urban writes in a style I grew up with and still enjoy and DFA writes about things I’ve just begun to read about in the last few years.

Baseball is a game of stats and it’s a game of people and there is room for all types of baseball writing.

Oh and I’m so glad this ended up being so much about Jack Cust because really there hasn’t been much written about him lately….(takes tongue out of cheek)

by sirbed on Aug 24, 2009 12:40 PM PDT reply actions  

Its more about Everidge being replacement level suck than Cust.

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

Im in the Elston Gunn Jack Cust is pretty okay camp myself

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

Good post. Reminiscent of FJM with less anger and sass.

Urban’s post bothers me because, whether intentional or not, he alienates a large percentage of A’s fans instantly when he goes on the anti-UZR rant—although, for all intents and purposes, it might as well be an attack on all statistics.

I’m from Springfield, Illinois. I’m an A’s fan because I love the way the team is run. Proximity has no bearing on my preferences when it comes to baseball. I love that they were one of the first teams to implement more of a statistical/performance based scouting than a physical preference.

Urban saying (shouting), “That’s why the play the game!” is the equivalent of him saying something to the extent of, “Baseball isn’t a game played in your mother’s basement.” Instant turnoff. That pisses me off, and it’s pure bullshit. If you’re going to research a statistic, have an open mind. That’s why you research things: to get a better understanding of something you didn’t know about.

If you think Billy Beane is a bad GM, I hate you and find you stupid.

by NateHST on Aug 24, 2009 1:03 PM PDT reply actions  

Thanks

This is another really going point.

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 1:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

but what if

I read FJM pretty much just for the sass?

by colin on Aug 24, 2009 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

Then you don't have to like my post?

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 1:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

well

I liked your post too

by colin on Aug 24, 2009 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."

by mikev on Aug 24, 2009 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm concerned about the rule 34 implications of this image.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 24, 2009 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

rule 34?

Eventually, my colleague and I trotted from the two-bit seats to the three-bit seats to get a closer view of the action. - Jlaff on Turn Back the Clock Day

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 4:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Rule%2034

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 24, 2009 5:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

Urban has his own DICTIONARY?

I have to say I’m impressed.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Aug 24, 2009 5:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

Thats actually what I thought it was but for some reason I had that as Rule 32 and wanted to check

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 5:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

That's fine but most people are A's fans because they live or are from California.

I see the A’s quite a bit in Texas and KC and when I talk to the A’s fans there they never say they like the A’s because of their stats based scouting system. They follow the A’s because they grew up being A’s fans.

I think Urban writes for those type of people and DFA writes more for stat heads. My advice is if you don’t like Urban don’t read him but I enjoy the access he has with the team.

by sirbed on Aug 24, 2009 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

I understand that most A's fans aren't A's fans for the same reason

But that doesn’t mean they don’t exist, and it especially doesn’t mean that Urban doesn’t need them as readers. Just because it’s a small percentage doesn’t mean it’s expendable.

If you think Billy Beane is a bad GM, I hate you and find you stupid.

by NateHST on Aug 24, 2009 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm not saying they're expendable but I don't think Urban caters to that audience.

There is so much baseball writing out there and DFA mentioned some real good sites that people should try so if you don’t like Urban you’ll still have plenty to read.

I highly recommend reading joeposnanski.com by the way he’s the best sportswriter in America in my opinion.

by sirbed on Aug 24, 2009 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm aware of other sites and writers who are better than Urban.

But if Urban is being hostile to a certain type of readers, you can’t just say, “Well they shouldn’t be reading him in the first place,” because he shouldn’t be hostile to any of his readers at all.

I used to work at a sub shop in downtown Springfield, Illinois. We were mainly in business to cater to the office buildings of the state government that were all downtown and fairly close to us. In fact, we did most of our business with places like this. However, we would occasionally get a delivery to the other side of town, sometimes into shitty neighborhoods. Did I like taking deliveries there? No. But I can’t show up at somebody’s door and say, “This is bullshit, why would you order from us?”

It’s essentially the same thing here. Urban has an audience that consists of all types of different sports fans. He cannot just start badmouthing the things certain types of fans enjoy (statistics), because he’ll start losing them. Urban’s full of shit sometimes, and a better suggestion than “Read somebody else,” would be, “Urban should stop being full of shit.”

If you think Billy Beane is a bad GM, I hate you and find you stupid.

by NateHST on Aug 24, 2009 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

This
he shouldn’t be hostile to any of his readers at all.

DFA (I assume) wouldn’t have made the UZR point if Twyt hadn’t gone out of his way to ignorantly attack the stat.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 24, 2009 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't think we're going to agree on this one Nate

You think Urban is full of it by not writing in a way that would only satisfy what you yourself said was a small part of his audience. I think Urban is writing for a different audience and he shouldn’t change his style just because you think he’s full of it.

I’m glad you’re aware of other sites and writers you like more maybe you should just read them and not worry about Michael Urban. Life is too short to read stuff you don’t like.

I really don’t get the point about the sandwiches other then the fact that I like sandwiches and I think I’ll go make myself one right now.

by sirbed on Aug 24, 2009 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

It's not a question of style, it's a question of substance

If a political news network (let’s keep it unnamed for avoiding-flamewar purposes) chooses to repeat as news something which is demonstrably false, should I not demonstrate that falsehood simply because I’m “not their target audience”?

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore.

This is not really Nate’s point (and I basically disagree with him that statheads are a “necessary” audience— generally speaking, any marketing strategy will do better by pandering to the lowest common denominator than by attempting anything else) but it’s a point which I think needs to be raised.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 24, 2009 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

I guess I'm part of the lowest common denominator

which is fine because I just enjoyed a real good turkey sandwich. As far as the crazy dystopian nightmare sounds like fun, I love a good party.

by sirbed on Aug 24, 2009 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

The Arguello Super in the City has the best turkey sandwich ever

unless this is a metaphor which in that case… move a long, nothing to see here.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

+1

I used to live at 5th and Fulton, and I ate those constantly. So good.

by mk on Aug 24, 2009 5:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

I live at golden gate and willard north so two blocks away

grew up there and they have one of the best sandwiches in the city

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 5:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

That is my new sig line.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 5:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

Points for changing the sig BEFORE announcing the new sig

It’s an AN pet peeve of mine.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 24, 2009 5:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

I had to add something to mine

At least for a little while. Those at AN Day would get this.

Champion Cookie Tosser
Last of the Ninth - Photography

by Flashfire on Aug 24, 2009 5:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

If only our football teams had qbs that could sling passes like you did cookies

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 5:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think the physics of that would have been problematic

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 5:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

Whoa, wait.

Does this

because he shouldn’t be hostile to any of his readers at all
apply to all bloggers, or just Mychael Urban?

Because by the same logic you could argue that the writers at FJM shouldn’t have been so hostile to the sort of fan who thinks like Joe Morgan, just in case those people want to enjoy the FJM wit, too.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 24, 2009 4:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

Bloggers and MLB beat writers are two different monsters.

His job is to take his access to the A’s clubhouse and tell us things we don’t know because we don’t have the same access. If the MLB gives him a job writing as one of their blog writers, so be it, but he isn’t a lone shark blogger who’s pissed about something, he’s an employee of the MLB who is attacking part of their audience. As such, it seems like he has more responsibility and some of the shit he says doesn’t fly.

If you think Billy Beane is a bad GM, I hate you and find you stupid.

by NateHST on Aug 24, 2009 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

Who sponsors Urban's blog?

I thought the post in question was on his personal blog, not on the MLB site.

Perhaps I misunderstood, but I thought the whole point of having the “Big Urb” blog was so he could have his own voice independent of the MLB.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 24, 2009 5:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

No the Big Urb blog is run by MLB

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 5:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ah -- this would make my comment below moot.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Aug 24, 2009 5:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well, shoot.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Aug 24, 2009 5:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

w00t!

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 24, 2009 6:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

I wonder how independent it is, though

MLB execs have access to read it, and MLB pays Urban a monthly check, so I wonder if Urban has 100% control over the content, or seemingly has 100% but actually has 90% “if he knows what’s good for him.”

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Aug 24, 2009 5:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sounds familiar

Kind of like you and Big Uncle Yahoo Blez, huh?

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 24, 2009 5:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

No, I said there was a monthly check involved

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Aug 24, 2009 5:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm willing to let things said in his Blog, as opposed to an acual printed article slide

as it is less formal and more opinion. That said, the level of writing at AN far exceeds anything Urban puts out on a regular basis. However there are a dozen good writers posting here with some popping in and out depending on their own time constraints that day or week or month and dozens more that come up with random posts that are worthy of rec’s from time to time.
 
Urban is one of the few sources of information that has actual access to the team so you take the good with the bad. Of course he could do much better but one of my biggest complaints with Urban’s blog is that he can’t write more than one or two blogs a week. It’s his job, he is around the team and its people often, how hard is it to write up something daily?

"Gratuitous gesticulating together sounds even better"

by OmahaHi on Aug 24, 2009 1:10 PM PDT reply actions  

It is hard to write something daily

without falling into the “cuteness” and clever stuff.

My complaint with Mychael Urban is that he is straining (IMO) in his blogs to be hip, spicy, different, …who knows, he may be under directives to be “more hip, more of a distinctive writer, etc.” We don’t know.

I met Mychael Urban at a book signing, for his book “The Big Three”. I felt he was a decent, forthright guy. I thought his book was “good”. Not outstanding, but it certainly had its moments. Anyone that can write/put together a published book will always have a plus in my eyes….this excludes politicians and “Joe-the-Plumber” celebrities who simply nameplate someone else’s work.

"It is the mark of a truly intelligent person to be moved by statistics. " GB Shaw

by One won lost won on Aug 24, 2009 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

To his credit, whatever else you may think of the content,

Urban’s writings are generally composed of complete sentences, and the incidence of grammatical, spelling and typographical errors, while non-zero, is still substantially below that of AN. I for one appreciate that.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 24, 2009 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

That just means he's conservative.

Verbs have been turning into nouns in a steady stream for centuries.

I have no doubt that Urban has used nouns like “impact” and “contact”, which wrinkled grammar maven’s noses in Fowler’s day — not to mention “hits”, “strikes”, “walks”, and “runs”.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 24, 2009 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

No doubt. I'm all in favor of the altering of language with time

I just really don’t like Fail being used as a noun.

But like you say, maybe I’m on my chair, shouting at the waves

by bobnothing on Aug 24, 2009 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

Metaphor win

(I couldn’t bring myself to describe the image as a fail)

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 24, 2009 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

You have my sympathy.

My personal peeve is when “massive” is used for things which have no mass, which is even more of a lost cause than yours. Not only do writers of all classes regularly flout logic in defiance of my will, but they routinely mock me by italicizing or even capitalizing the offending word in precisely the instances where it is most wrong.

Let all men know how empty and worthless is the power of linguistic prescriptionists, for there is none worthy of the name, but He whom heaven, earth, and sea obey by eternal laws!

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 24, 2009 5:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

TWSS
My personal peeve is when "massive" is used for things which have no mass, which is even more of a lost cause than yours.

A B -3X = Swedish girls like chocolate @('.')@

by monkeyball on Aug 24, 2009 5:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

That's not "flouting logic," it's just a metaphor...

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 24, 2009 7:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

Because we don't have enough generic,

all-purpose magnifiers in the language, we have to devalue a perfectly good descriptive adjective in order to have one more.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 24, 2009 10:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

Do you object to ginormous or gynormous?

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 10:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

Nope.

No loss there. Bernstein’s second law.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 24, 2009 10:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

By that standard, you should never use any metaphors in English

because the language is so immensely redundant that they’re never necessary.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 25, 2009 9:05 AM PDT up reply actions  

There is so much wrong with that argument

that I barely know where to start.

First, 90% of the alleged redundancy of the language is not truly redundant; when there are five different words with the “same” meaning, in fact they each have slightly different nuances. Those nuances are the true richness of the language.

Second you are blurring the distinction between metaphor and evolution of a word’s meaning. In metaphor, a word is used in a non-literal way in order to make an association. The richness of the metaphor comes from knowing the meaning of the word and using it in a context where it does not literally apply. When the original meaning is forgotten, it is no longer metaphor.

Any metaphor that attains enough currency to become well-known is likely to eventually die. That’s part of the natural process of language. That doesn’t mean there is no value in trying to keep it alive to enjoy it a little longer.

If you think I’m arguing against metaphor, you completely misunderstand my point. I am calling for keeping metaphor alive, while you want to pronounce it dead.

I don’t expect you and I to ever see eye to eye on this or any other language-related issue, because from your post I see you view language as a utilitarian tool which might be made more or less efficient, whereas I see it as a thing of beauty, a living communal work of art.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 25, 2009 10:31 AM PDT up reply actions  

yeah, consarnit!

(paid for by the “Keep Consarnit Alive!” committee)

"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard

by Gaijin_Suketto on Aug 25, 2009 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

This is particular important in light of

the way that “fuck you” has been so devalued, as DFA astutely noted upthread.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 25, 2009 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

"FUCK YOU" IS THE NEW MARKET INEFFICIENCY!

MONEYBALL, BABY!

"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."

by mikev on Aug 25, 2009 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

Perhaps Beane should write another book.

This time about how “Fuck You” has strong negative correlations to winning percentage and to attendance. ~ LowCountryMorgan

by LowcountryJoe on Aug 25, 2009 6:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

“…don’t expect you and me to ever see eye to eye…”

For whatever reason, I was unable to restrain myself from pointing that out…

by Elvez on Aug 25, 2009 4:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

Like intelligence, pedantry is autocatalytic

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 25, 2009 4:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

What can I say?

I just like being part of the sigmoid curve. Though I seem to always find myself at the upper end of it…

by Elvez on Aug 25, 2009 6:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

Touché

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 25, 2009 5:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not that I'm following the whole conversation

But, it seems to me, like someone still excited about their VHS collection, once you find yourself in “protecting the metaphor” mode, it’s already gone. The real time to protect the metaphor is before the meaning starts to change since once it starts down that path, particularly when it comes to language, the road seems to be only one way. I don’t recall any word (ah, look at me trying to act like I have strong vocab & language skills when they’re actually incredibly weak) that’s ever gone from metaphor, to new meaning/no longer metaphor, back to original meaning/metaphor.

*Note: this entire post requires an assumption that I know wtf we’re talking about instead of absurdly interjecting with absolutely no understanding/knowledge about the topic at hand instead of stfu and hitting “cancel” or moving along to something else. Which, of course, I don’t.

CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."

by DMOAS on Aug 25, 2009 6:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

Dude have you seen this thread

I started it, read every comment and can still barely follow it.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 25, 2009 7:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

That's generally the sign of a F-ing A Thread.

Or a FAT if you will.

CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."

by DMOAS on Aug 25, 2009 7:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

TY Glad I could get the 400 comments rolling.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 25, 2009 7:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

YW, you earned it.

CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."

by DMOAS on Aug 25, 2009 7:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm pretty sure I acknowledged when I first mentioned it

what a lost cause it is.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 25, 2009 7:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yep, you definitely did

Mainly I was suggesting you start earlier and instead of holding on to lost causes.

CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."

by DMOAS on Aug 25, 2009 7:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

I DID start earlier!

I’ve been complaining about this for 25 years.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 25, 2009 10:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

Youve been complaining about it since before I was born

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 25, 2009 10:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well

complaining about it won’t do anything. You’ve got to COMPLAIN about it. Then take action. Bell tower with a giant mic would be a good start. Just leave the rifle at home, you wouldn’t want anyone to think you’re crazy.

CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."

by DMOAS on Aug 25, 2009 11:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

Lawn signs

because they win campaigns. NOT

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 25, 2009 11:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

Devalue your car with bumper stickers too!

CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."

by DMOAS on Aug 25, 2009 11:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

I put bumper stickers on my bike and my computer.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 26, 2009 12:02 AM PDT up reply actions  

This post is full of fail

Ohhhhhhhhhhhh

Win.

"You know Eklund would grab your cheeseburger before the Hamburglar.

Cheeseburger to Eklund (e4)"

~ Morti

by CaliforniaJag on Aug 25, 2009 12:40 AM PDT up reply actions  

Formal language rules emerge from actual usage

Language, therefore, is in a constant state of change and its rules morph to reflect the new ways people are communicating but are always lagging.

by LowcountryJoe on Aug 24, 2009 4:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

I have a question regarding UZR and sample size for anyone who cares to answer.

An approximate three year sample size is often cited as the point at which a player’s UZR has achieved sufficient granularity of data for us to make accurate statements regarding their performance.

However, not all positions field an equal number of balls. IIRC, SS fields around 500, CF around 400, and everyone else somewhere around 200 (sorry if those numbers are incorrect, but it doesn’t really matter for the sake of my point). Since SS and CF are involved in a much higher number of plays, could we not start to judge their performance sooner, say after a year in a half?

Conversely, would this greater sample size of balls in a SS/CFs zone to some extent be cancelled out by the physical size of the zone for which a SS/CF is credited/penalized, which is quite large compared to other positions? Obviously this doesn’t really matter, since a CF’s UZR is determined relative to other CFs, not 1Bs, but my question is about the tendency of factors to cause variance in the data which goes into UZR, and it seems to me that the size of a SS zone in particular, which can extend from right of 2B to left of the 3B foul line, would result in a lot of variance.

So I’m basically asking two questions, one about whether we would need a smaller sample size to evaluate SS/CFs due to the high number of balls they field, the other about whether we would need a larger sample size for these positions due to variance caused by the large size of their bucket of play. Maybe the two cancel each other out and the three year rule holds steady?

Bob Garen is incontinent

by Aufheben on Aug 24, 2009 1:39 PM PDT reply actions  

Intuitively, I'd agree with you that the two factors mitigate each other

I’ve never read any comments on that point specifically though.

You know, the guys at The Book blog are very good at answering reader questions. They even have a wiki set up for that purpose. One of them is the UZR creator and if you just follow the link at the website and email them that question I’m sure they will give you a good response – not to you personally, but either posted on their blog page or on the wiki itself – within a week.

Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.

by notsellingjeans on Aug 24, 2009 9:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

When I want hard-hitting analysis and in-depth reporting...

… I don’t go to the corporate website, nawmean? Urban’s job is essentially predicated on being a company man, coming up with positive spins on any negative activity and conducting scratch-the-surface interviews with a few of the players. I don’t hold this against him whatsoever. I like reading Urban’s stuff because it gives me an idea of what the clubhouse atmosphere is like and how the players interact with one another.

Would I like him to appreciate UZR a little more? Yeah. But overall I’d probably just rather hear about Dallas Braden putting Icy Hot in Cliff Pennington’s jock strap, or Daric Barton thinking Aaron Cunningham’s sister is hot.

by Joey C. on Aug 24, 2009 1:51 PM PDT reply actions  

At least you don’t have to hear him on the weekends talking about his love for Barry Zito.

by 49er16 on Aug 24, 2009 2:57 PM PDT reply actions  

hehe- watching the angels-tigers game on espn

and they start talking about UZR and UZR/150, to which Joe Morgan says, “I don’t use those metrics”.

kinda threw me off that I heard about it at all on ESPN. these are different times…

Save Rajai Davis

by oakinboston on Aug 24, 2009 7:40 PM PDT reply actions  

College

1. Graduating college indicates that those who do have at least minimal levels of intelligence and diligence, which is valuable information for employers (who are not awash in valuable information.) Lots of people paying a bunch of money for college is perhaps an inefficient means of accomplishing that, but it’s something…
2. Tuition to some extent subsidizes faculty research, much of which is quite valuable. Since degrees are somewhat valuable (even if only for appearances or whatever) it’s not all that unfair.
3. People could learn on their own as well as in college if they are so disposed, but it is unlikely that any such person is going to write essays/do other sorts of “assignments.” Or more broadly, people on their own are not generally disposed to do anything that is unpleasant without some incentive structure.

With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery

by mikeA on Aug 24, 2009 8:30 PM PDT reply actions  

4. math/science-colleges teach people valuable stuff that is useful. It is pretty much just the odd genius that can bypass college and succeed/contribute in these sorts of fields.

With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery

by mikeA on Aug 24, 2009 8:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Going to college hasn't taught mikeA appropriate use of the reply button :-P

I kid I kid.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 8:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

Came in late with 200+ comments already, so I didn't feel like finding the right place to reply to that coversation

Also, it is part of my campaign of subversion…

With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery

by mikeA on Aug 24, 2009 8:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

well then subvert away

were well on our way to 300 comments with 18 different subjects in this thread :-P

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 8:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

Quite the epic, isn't it?

Time for another Leopold Bloom thread summary…

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 24, 2009 8:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

People like to complain about how the "foul pole" should really be the "fair pole" yet they never apply the same logic to the foul line

Discuss.

With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery

by mikeA on Aug 24, 2009 9:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

I agree that they should be paired

I also think that demarcating fair area is a more sensible way of doing things as there is infinite foul territory so demarcating what is fair makes more sense.

That being said I really don’t give a damn.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 9:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

But foul lines

go out infinatly right? so I sure that batted ball if fair in some park

by Future Ed on Aug 24, 2009 10:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

I guess but I really only care about the park I am in

since other parks don’t have fair territory for the park I care about they become irrelevant to me.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 10:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

People park in the driveway

And drive in the parkway

Life is nonsense

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 24, 2009 10:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

That's a Carlinism, isn't it

God, that guy was hilarious.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 25, 2009 9:03 AM PDT up reply actions  

If it's an UNDISPUTED Heavyweight Champion

Why do they keep fighting over it?

"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."

by mikev on Aug 25, 2009 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done?

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 25, 2009 12:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

The Holy Roman Empire

was neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire.

"Camelot sure fell apart, didn't it?"-Steve McCatty

by 5Aces on Aug 25, 2009 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

how was it not an empire?

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 25, 2009 11:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

probably because of something like this
The Holy Roman Empire was not a highly centralized state like most countries today. Instead, it was divided into dozens — eventually hundreds — of individual entities governed by kings,5 dukes, counts, bishops, abbots or other rulers, collectively known as princes. There were also some areas ruled directly by the Emperor. At no time could the Emperor simply issue decrees and govern autonomously over the Empire. His power was severely restricted by the various local leaders.

from wikipedia, of course

by colin on Aug 25, 2009 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

Right

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 25, 2009 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

So youre saying that the Ottoman Empire wouldn't qualify either right?

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 25, 2009 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

It would be closer

But I’m not as familiar with them. Europe back in the HRE days was a lot different than we imagine (my extortionucation coming to bear)

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 25, 2009 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

Oh Im sure but the Caliphate excercised similar control of the Ottoman Empire IIRC

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 25, 2009 1:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

That's a different issue

In the HRE, there was no meaningful central authority whatsoever. The land you controlled with your castle YOU CONTROLLED.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 25, 2009 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

I was reacting to this
At no time could the Emperor simply issue decrees and govern autonomously over the Empire. His power was severely restricted by the various local leaders.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 25, 2009 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

No, that is quite wrong.

The Ottoman Empire was no more religious than the HRE.

The notion that the title of caliph was passed to the Ottoman Empire from the last Abbasid emperor by way of the Mamluks is a historical fiction invented in the late 18th century when the Ottoman Empire was in decline. It was a reaction to the treaty of Kuçuk Kaynarca, in which Russia asserted political rule over all Christians within the Ottoman realms. The Ottomans made a counterclaim for all Muslims within Russia, and the idea of caliph as a political title was revived in order to support this claim (which was essentially empty, since the Ottomans were defeated and had no muscle to back it up).

In spite of the fact that the transfer and the shadow caliphate have become part of standard received history there is no record of it whatsoever prior to 1774. The Ottoman sultans before that time rarely claimed the title of caliph, and only as an honorific.

To whatever extent there was a caliph, it was strictly an additional power of the sultan, not an outside force exercising influence over the sultan, as the Catholic church did over the king of Spain, for instance. Throughout its entire history the Ottoman empire was no more a religious state than contemporary England or France. I would argue that functionally it was more secular than contemporary Spain or Russia.

The best European comparison to the Ottoman empire is the Habsburg empire, which resembled it in many ways. Both were destabilized by the economic changes which gave rise to nationalism in the 19th century. The one reacted aggressively to try to reform while the other was mostly passive, but ultimately both collapsed under the same pressures.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 25, 2009 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

I wasn't comparing their religios believes but their empire's local autonomy

Though I believe that Mehmed II started claiming the Caliphate after the fall of Constantinople in 1451.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 25, 2009 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

But what do you mean by "claiming the Caliphate"?

I understand that the basic histories will say that Mehmed “claimed caliphal authority” or whatever, and Wikipedia etc will repeat that. I’m saying that is misleading at best, and better characterized as literally correct but flat-out wrong in its implication.

Bernard Lewis has written quite a bit on this topic. When I’m home with my books I can find some references for you.

For now all I’m doing is challenging your earlier suggestion that “the Caliphate exercised similar control of the Ottoman empire”. That is simply false. There was no Caliphate outside of the sultan’s own authority.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 25, 2009 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

right I was using the term probably inappropriately to refer to the sultan

and that the millet system was quite decentralized which was my original point so I was wondering if that system of control dqed the ottoman empire from being an official empire.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 25, 2009 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ah, I see.

I would say no. The ethnarchs were direcly responsible to the sultan. The millets were as much a part of civil government as any provincial government.

By the way, I assume it goes without saying that if we say something is or isn’t an “empire”, it’s just a semantic distinction and not some absolutely defined term. I’m only challenging the suggestion that the same logic that “disqualifies” the HRE also disqualifies the OE, because they are very different cases; I’m not asserting any specific definition of “empire”.

Actually, I think the line that the HRE is “neither holy, Roman, nor an empire” is more cute than accurate. I would say that for part of its history it was an “empire”. But again, the label alone doesn’t tell us much.

(I would also quibble with the claim that it isn’t Roman, but that’s another topic altogether.)

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 25, 2009 5:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

I suppose it all depends upon how you define your terms

For example, England has had a king (or queen) fairly consistently since the 9th century. That said, if you think “Louis XIV” when you think “king,” the vast majority of these guys weren’t kings.

Where you draw the line is an interesting discussion but, as you say, more of a quibble than anything else.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 25, 2009 5:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

The Ottoman Empire

was surely an empire in a sense that the HRE was not. Yes of course there are incomplete levels of political control, particularly in the outer provinces, just as there is in any empire. The claim that the HRE is “not an empire” is an objection at a more profound level than the fact that the emperor is not an absolute dictator throughout his realm.

I wonder if you’re confusing the Holy Roman Empire with the Habsburg empire (Austria-Hungary). The latter was indeed an empire, and since as often as not the Habsburg emperor was also the HRE, at some points in history the distinction gets blurred.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 25, 2009 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

What is the more profound level.

I seem to be missing that.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 25, 2009 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

It's like the difference between the U.S. and the E.U.

Or if you prefer, like the difference between the U.S under the Constitution and under the Articles of Federation.

In the HRE, a bunch of states were signed up as members but they’re all essentially independent and the higher level doesn’t have any significant power beyond what the member states give to it. In the various other true empires, there is a genuine central government which may not be all-powerful and thus has to appease local interests but nevertheless really is in charge.

Note that the HR emperor at any given time was almost always the ruler of one (or more) of the member states, usually one of the bigger ones, so the emperor did control his own state, just not all the other ones.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 25, 2009 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ah that makes sense

I don’t really know much about that period of German history so this is quite interesting.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 25, 2009 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm pretty weak on Germany myself.

My specialty was the medieval Near East. I know the Ottoman empire very well and the Habsburg empire somewhat. All that 30-years-war stuff is a blur to me, though.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 25, 2009 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

FWIW .. Re: History

I’ve loved reading this entire post .. there goes half an hour of my time .. As a fan of history, I’m of the opinion that history is one of those subjects that’s incredibly fascinating and useful in subtle ways, but ultimately unappreciated by the masses. I truly believe that were it not for requirements in college and high school, most students wouldn’t study it at all. So perhaps students are overpaying to be forced to learn about some things they might not have been interested in. :)

by Rickeyfan on Aug 25, 2009 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

Everybody knows that if you don't learn your history,

you’re doomed to repeat it.

The dirty little secret is that even if you do learn your history,
you’re still doomed to repeat it anyway.

Maybe the willfully ignorant masses are on to something…

"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard

by Gaijin_Suketto on Aug 25, 2009 6:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

The 30YW was essentially a bid by the Emperor

to turn the HRE into a “true” empire, under the cover of various religious pseudo-justifications. Sort of as if Virginia had decided to solve the problem of deadlock under the Articles of Confederation by invading Maryland and replacing its governor with a client ruler…

It’s dated, but Cicely Wedgwood’s book on the Thirty Years’ War is one of those books which anyone interested in history should get around to reading at some point. It’s sort of the Guns of August of the 17th century.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 25, 2009 4:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

Thanks, Paul.

I’ll add that to my (long) list of books to read some day.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 25, 2009 5:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

This is exactly right, and a much better expression of my all-caps above
Note that the HR emperor at any given time was almost always the ruler of one (or more) of the member states, usually one of the bigger ones, so the emperor did control his own state, just not all the other ones.

As one example of how weak the HR emperor actually was, even the relatively-empty title was threatened when Gregory VII excommunicated Henry IV (this is pretty close to the subject of my history thesis, so I can go on and on). Long story short, Henry had to take dramatic action to lift the excommunication.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 25, 2009 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

The Ottoman Empire was pretty strongly centralized

In most ways, it was actually very similar to the Byzantine Empire, which had preceded it in more or less the same territory. Sort of an example of form following function, if you will.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 25, 2009 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

The Ottoman empire is very much a successor state

of the Byzantine. In the West we have this vague sense that “the Turks” came rushing in with swords, killed off all “the Greeks” and created a new empire of their own, but it wasn’t like that at all. There is a lot of continuity between the two. And while yes there was plenty of warfare, it’s not significantly more than the numerous civil wars that split the Byzantine world since the start of the Crusades. The rulers changed, but much of the institutions remained in place. There was also a great deal of intermarriage between the Ottoman sultans and the various Byzantine houses. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if there is more Greek blood than Turkish in the Ottoman line.

I think it’s generally underappreciated how much the Ottoman empire, and the Islamic world general, is a real successor to the Greco-Roman tradition. We tend to imagine Greece and Rome only to the extent that it gave birth to Western civilization, but it was equally the parent of the Islamic world. (This is plain enough in classical Islamic literature, where they’re always claiming guys like Alexander and Aristotle as their own.)

In terms of Rome’s trade and economy, the Islamic world was the far greater inheritor. One of the great ironies of Pirenne’s “Mohammed and Charlemagne” essay is that while he very smartly recognizes the Mediterranean trade as the true essence of the Roman Empire, his chauvinistic determination to associate Rome with France leads him to tell of how Egypt, Syria, Asia Minor, North Africa, Greece, Spain, and Southern Italy were all “lost” to Rome. But in that sense, all those places are Rome, and it is only France and Northern Italy that were “lost”.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 25, 2009 6:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

THIS
I think it’s generally underappreciated how much the Ottoman empire, and the Islamic world general, is a real successor to the Greco-Roman tradition. We tend to imagine Greece and Rome only to the extent that it gave birth to Western civilization, but it was equally the parent of the Islamic world.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 26, 2009 9:12 AM PDT up reply actions  

Its also not "Rhode Island"

the states name is “Rhode Island and providence plantations”

One of the islands is called “Rhode Island”

by Future Ed on Aug 25, 2009 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

It's still not a road.

"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."

by mikev on Aug 25, 2009 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

Byg Urb got a college education yet is still an ydyot

Discuss.

With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery

by mikeA on Aug 24, 2009 9:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

y?

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 24, 2009 10:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

300 comments and 20 recs in the first day.

I can go to bed happy then.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 10:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

You're right up there with Tonto!

"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."

by mikev on Aug 25, 2009 7:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

2 is false, at least for well established private schools

Endowment income and alumni donations fund everything. Tuition pays for some small percentage of the cost of actually teaching someone.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 24, 2009 10:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

Our tution basically paid for the school's landscaping budget

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 10:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ahhh....

AN back at its finest….mention Urban, Paul Thomas, or Jack Cust and we get 300 reply threads! Woohooo! Sorry, please continue….

"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."

"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff

by ST on Aug 24, 2009 9:17 PM PDT reply actions  

Glad I could help return order to the universe

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 24, 2009 9:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

… I just checked out a few of the acronym stats I don’t understand in an effort to be a better-informed baseball writer, but I gave up upon seeing that Mark Teixeira is considered a defensive negative according to UZR (Ultimate Zone Rating). Anyone who thinks Teixeira is anything less than a godsend for the Yanks defensively is spending way too much time VORPing and not nearly enough time WATCHING THE GAME.

This to me is absurd. I get the “watch the game” argument. I tend not to buy it, but I understand it. But how can a beat writer for a DIFFERENT team make the “watch the game” argument? It made a lot more sense when Tyler Kepner made it on Teixeira’s behalf.

I say off the charts because I’m convinced there is no chart that accurately measures defense. The attempt is a noble one; defense is easily the most underrated ingredient in how games are won. But I don’t fully accept it.

People often cite Ultimate Zone Rating, a metric that tries to measure range and errors and how they affect runs allowed or prevented. But how can that statistic be valid when it says Teixeria has had a negative defensive impact?

Teixeira makes tremendous plays every game. He smothers everything near him, and his throwing arm is fantastic. Maybe he seems better than he is because the previous Yankees first baseman, Jason Giambi, was so adventurous in the field. But it would be hard to overstate the importance of Teixeira’s defense.

(quoted from Rob Neyer, because I can’t find the link to Kepner’s actual post)

by timed exposure on Aug 24, 2009 11:09 PM PDT reply actions  

Good to see you around these parts

I think this part is the key

Maybe he seems better than he is because the previous Yankees first baseman, Jason Giambi, was so adventurous in the field

On top of that he really should know that UZR doesn’t rank Teixiera as having a negative defensive impact. What it says is that he is a league average fielder this year, which is still a benefit to his team and a positive impact. Saying that a metric is wrong because it misses the true talent level is wrong because it misses the true talent level of one guy (assuming Teixiera has a true talent level of being an excellent fielder) doesn’t make any sense. A completely perfect metric by definition will still miss true talent levels due to sample size.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 25, 2009 12:11 AM PDT up reply actions  

Quite a fanpost

Some of you guys are real interesting thinkers and it’s been fun to read a lot of this stuff even the parts I disagree with.

I think iglew’s comments about college are crazy but interesting and since I spend my life getting kids ready for college I enjoyed reading his contrarian thinking.

All the grammar posts remind me of why I switched to history as the english language can drive you nuts sometimes. Good stuff guys.

by sirbed on Aug 25, 2009 3:15 PM PDT reply actions  

slow day here at AN.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 25, 2009 3:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

Education

Earlier this year I read a book of essays by Alfie Kohn. I fully expected to completely disagree with him, since he is known as a defender of public education and I’m more or less opposed to it. (Yes, I like to read books by authors I expect to disagree with.)

To my surprise, I found I agreed with him about almost everything. Every time he wrote about another XYZ that is wrong with schools today, I found myself cheering, “yes, yes, you’re right, that is so fucked up!” The only difference between him and me is that he imagines that public education is this wonderful pure thing and if only we can eliminate all those corruptions it would go back to being wonderful, whereas I think all those corruptions are the very essence of public education and that’s why it’s flawed in its very concept.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 25, 2009 6:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

I wish I had something thought provoking and profound to add...

other than the idea that if I ever had a kid, I would seriously consider homeschooling, to accelerate learning and to incorporate a lot of right brain exercises and lessons in social psychology that the system doesn’t seem to adequately teach.

"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard

by Gaijin_Suketto on Aug 25, 2009 6:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

Wouldn't you worry that your kid wouldn't learn how to deal with other kids?

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 25, 2009 7:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

I would.

Being in a social situation with other kids is very valuable (though I wish they weren’t quite so age-segregated). If you don’t have somewhere else to get that, it’s a real strong argument against home-schooling.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 25, 2009 7:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

That's what the afternoons and weekends are for...

little league, swimming lessons, dance, pottery, music, church/coven

Kids can learn socialization outside of school.

I know that the kind of socialization I learned in school was mostly fist to face and vice versa… Then again, I guess they don’t let kids fight in school anymore… probably call the cops on them or something…

"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard

by Gaijin_Suketto on Aug 26, 2009 8:27 AM PDT up reply actions  

If our education system was debate based we would be fine.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 25, 2009 7:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

You said that just to goad me, didn't you?

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 25, 2009 7:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yes, but also because I believe it.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 25, 2009 7:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

I actually agree 100% with that

One of the major failures of my Philosophy degree (i mean come on, it’s philosophy) is there wasn’t enough real debating within classes and pandered towards lecturing about the oldies. Start them young really thinking about the subjects and offering a true discourse and you have a free thinking society with better deductive reasoning skills instead of a bunch of sheep and lemmings.

CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."

by DMOAS on Aug 25, 2009 7:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

I remember I was in a politics class ...

where a girl told the prof that she was scared I would and this is a direct quote “intellectually humiliate her” if she spoke up and therefore should be excused from the participation requirement.

That should not happen in a quality education system.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 25, 2009 7:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

Wait, she actually publicly stated this in class?

You should consider law as a career choice.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 25, 2009 10:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

I am.

I just wanted this politics gig to work out for a while first.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 25, 2009 10:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

You know that it's possible to "intellectually humiliate" someone while being totally wrong

Put differently, it’s possible that the other student really meant “rhetorically humiliate”.

I spent close to 1/2 of the rounds in of my sophomore year in high school ridiculing people’s arguments for ending arms sales to the Suharto regime that was committing genocide in East Timor.

My senior year, nearly every round I was neg my partner and I ran a counterplan arguing in favor of an Albanian-style socialist paradise (which would be delayed by the minor economic improvements won by the aff plan).

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Aug 26, 2009 7:07 AM PDT up reply actions  

Oh sure it is.

Im not saying otherwise. Im just repeating what the Prof told me. It was a Middle East and the International system class, and my views on the region have been surprisingly accurate besideds telling a friend who was traveling to Lebanon in 06 that it was way safer than people generally thought.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 26, 2009 7:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

In the context of DMOAS's comment above

what I meant was that I’m not ready to dismiss your fellow-student’s concern out of hand, (though I’d hope the professor would figure out a way to adjust the way s/he runs the class so that the student participates and learns). That is, the role of students in classes is not simply to win arguments with each other — I think that setting that as the standard would tend to teach students how to win arguments (at least within the parameters set in the classroom), but there wouldn’t necessarily be a lot of learning going on about the actual topic of the various classes.

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Aug 26, 2009 8:00 AM PDT up reply actions  

Which, I suppose, goes back to the question we've discussed elsewhere in the thread

Which is more valuable? Learning how to debate (and the logic/effective speaking that goes along with it) or learning about the middle east?

It’s a real question and, if we can agree that the two are in tension, “both” is not an available answer.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 26, 2009 9:12 AM PDT up reply actions  

I don't see that the two are necissarily in tension

I think that a reasonable effort by judges/profs can be made so that the DA links are less tenuous and more realistic and if that happens, then debate is much more educational.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 26, 2009 9:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

You end up learning a lot in any case

Hell, I knew about East Timor back in 1982-3, long before the vast majority of people in this country had heard of it. And I learned a lot about what wacky, early-80s party propaganda rags said about various current events, too. Which was educational in a different way.

But I loved doing debate. If I hadn’t loved it, it wouldn’t have been nearly as valuable. I think an educational system should present lots of different ways for students to learn, analyze, express themselves, and discover their passions, because one size does not fit all where learning is concerned.

Also, there was a down side to debate for me: it reinforced my tendency to want to be right all the time (which was part of why I loved it — i loved being right and having adults tell me so on ballots). It took me a long time to realize that letting that aspect of my personality run free makes me a royal pain in the ass, and a worse person/father/husband/worker/activist/everything.

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Aug 26, 2009 9:27 AM PDT up reply actions  

Down sides of debate

Debate does have a tendency to reinforce the desire to be right. However, for me that was fully formed long before I started debating. Debate also saved my life and got me to actually make friends and interact with people which I had ceased doing before I started it. The biggest problem that debate created for me is a failure to understand how nondebate people do not divorce themselves from their ideas, and allow for a critical examination of their beliefs as debaters do. That has caused problems for me that when hanging out with debate friends I don’t have.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 26, 2009 9:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

That matches my experience to a good degree

WRT reinforcing my extant tendencies, and creating a social context for me.

But I think this is a “depends on which wolf I feed” situation: I debated (mostly team and extemp) for 4 years in high school, then did 4 years of off-topic (APDA) in college. I loved doing it. But I was definitely feeding the wolf that wanted to be right all the time and always wanted to have the last word, and it was really only after a few year out of debate that I got some perspective on it.

I wouldn’t be the person I am now without that debate background and everything that went with it. I suppose I’d say I’d be a worse person without it, but I really can’t imagine what I’d be like otherwise, since I started when I was 13. But I know, as well, that I’d definitely be a much worse person if I’d never gotten out of debate eventually, gotten some perspective, and learned to listen to people and interact with them differently.

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Aug 26, 2009 9:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

I know I would be a worse person

getting out of debate was good for me as well, but I would have never learned to interact with people as well as I do (despite lingering debate caused issues) if I had kept on the path I was on before I found debate.

I think the whole you learn to listen to people out side debate argument is kinda bunk though. I learned to listen to debaters and make friends and learn from them in debate. The problem is that the rest of society acts in a manner totally deprived of critical thinking and meaningful conversation that those who come from a world full of it, struggle.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 26, 2009 9:46 AM PDT up reply actions  

That last paragraph seems vastly overstated to me

I know and have worked with and been friends with tons of people who never did debate and yet are great at critical thinking and meaningful conversation. I know you’re not saying that no one learns these things outside debate, but it sounds to me as if you’re attributing unique qualities to debate that I think might largely derive from doing something (could be chess, basketball, pottery, music, whatever) that you really love and can do with a community of other people who love it.

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Aug 26, 2009 9:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

That reminded me of this for some reason
"I think that all good, right thinking people in this country are sick and tired of being told that all good, right thinking people in this country are fed up with being told that all good, right thinking people in this country are fed up with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am"

I think there are ways that you can get there without debate for sure. I also believe that if debate was a bigger part of curriculum, then more people would think in those ways.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 26, 2009 9:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

critical thinking is good.

debate is good for some.

Is there such a thing as competitive consensus-building?

If there’s not, there should be.

"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard

by Gaijin_Suketto on Aug 26, 2009 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well, there's the Negotiation and Mediation team here

Does that count?

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 26, 2009 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

yeah, that counts.

cool.

"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard

by Gaijin_Suketto on Aug 26, 2009 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

No

Because those words don’t mean what they normally mean.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 26, 2009 4:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

This is kind of a stretch, but

in an effort to tie two subthreads together (while opening the door for a bonus baseball/Simpsons reference), I would suggest that the Seven Years War could be seen as a global exercise in competitive consensus-building, and that Britain prevailed not because it outfought the others but because it was the most successful in building national consensus.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 26, 2009 4:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

And with rules

For example, I think my critical thinking skills began to form thanks to Sid Meier.

I do think it’s important for people to buy into an activity where there are both rules and room for creativity. Debate is certainly an example. So are Nick’s. Basically anything where there are rules, winners, and losers is going to help people learn how to critically evaluate situations.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 26, 2009 9:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

Civ fan?

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 26, 2009 10:01 AM PDT up reply actions  

Gettysburg!

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 26, 2009 10:03 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yep

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 26, 2009 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions  

Ive been playing free civ and free col recently.

lot of fun

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 26, 2009 10:14 AM PDT up reply actions  

I've played all four civs (and col, but not SMAC)

The saddest day of my gaming life was when they nerfed chariots in Civ 2.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 26, 2009 10:27 AM PDT up reply actions  

For me it was Allan B Calhamer.

Good times.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 26, 2009 10:09 AM PDT up reply actions  

Squad Leader and Axis/Allies for me

As far as board games.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 26, 2009 10:26 AM PDT up reply actions  

Im all about risk

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 26, 2009 10:31 AM PDT up reply actions  

Oh, you poor boy.

We need to introduce you to some Euros.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 26, 2009 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

I need to clarify this comment

because I’d like it to be constructive and not just a driveby shooting.

You probably thought I was just saying, "ha ha, Risk is a lame game and you’re sad and pathetic if you like it," but it’s not like that. Well, no, actually, it’s kind of like that – Risk is a lame game, and it is sad, but not in the way you think. That you like Risk does not indicate that you have bad taste. Just the opposite.

Here’s the thing. There are two separate universes of board games. In the one universe – let’s call it "old school" – half the games are completely stupid and worthless, and only a few of them are any good. Among that few, the best of the bunch is Risk, which is pretty much the only old school game that even comes close to being a real game.

The fact that you like Risk tells me two things. First, if you gravitated toward Risk, it probably means you have the instincts of a real gamer. Otherwise, you’d be just as happy playing Careers or Pictionary. Second, if you’re still playing Risk, it means you haven’t discovered the other universe.

There is a whole other world of board games you don’t know about where the average run-of-the-mill meh game is about equal to Risk, and the really good ones completely blow it out of the water. A few of these games date back to the old days, but they were rare and not well developed. In the mid 1990s there was a revolution in board game design. The revolution began in Germany and spread to America from there. Even now most of the better games come from Europe, which is why we sometimes call them "Euro-games". (Actually, in the board game world, "euro" has a more specific meaning, and my guess is that ultimately you would not be a euro type, but that’s where you should start.)

The classic entry game, which is also the game that launched the Euro boom, is Settlers of Catan. I still love Settlers, though it’s seen as very passé by board game geeks today. You would like it, simply because it’s a quality game and better than anything you’ve ever played, but you don’t really strike me as a Settlers type. For you, I think I would recommend Puerto Rico or anything by Reiner Knizia. Then after you’ve played a few Knizias to death, move on to Martin Wallace.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 26, 2009 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions  

Since you clearly know a lot more about this stuff than me, a question:

If you were going to recommend a 2-player board game that is interesting, doesn’t take Axis/Allies time to play, and girls might like I’d be very interested. Anything magic-y is out.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 26, 2009 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

Two-player is tough.

Most of the good games don’t scale down well. My wife used to like Thurn & Taxis with two. Agricola (which I love) works with two, thought it’s better with more. I’m told that Carcassonne works well with two, though I was never a big fan.

Kosmos has a nice little series of two-player games. Most of them are card games, but many are quite good.

“What’s a two-player game I can play with my wife” is a recurring theme on Board Game Geek, so I’m sure you can can find a discussion there. Here’s one. (Possibly a bit advanced, if you’re not already a geek.)

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 26, 2009 1:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

Gotcha

And thanks for the link. I’m just geeky enough for Axis/Allies and Squad Leader, she isn’t that close.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 26, 2009 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

Dominion?

It’s best with 3 or 4, but it’s not a bad game with 2 either.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 26, 2009 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

I loved Dominion, but then

burned out after about 400 games on BrettSpielWelt.

I definitely like 3 or 4 far better than 2, though. With two it’s barely worth the bother; I’d rather just sit and talk.

Anyway, I figure it falls under the category of “anything magic-y”. (I interpreted “magic-y” to mean MTG, not just a magic-related theme. That’s what you meant, Nevermoor, right?)

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 26, 2009 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

Actually no

I mean magic-related theme (her preferences).

In any case, I found about 8 contenders from that list and your suggestions, so maybe there’ll be a match.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 26, 2009 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

She doesn't like magic but

she’s OK with war? There’s something you don’t see every day.

My wife tends to like the games where you collect resources and build buildings, including some pretty complex ones (eg, Caylus). She won’t play anything that involves killing enemy units, though. Even if it’s fairly abstract.

I wish I could have gotten her hooked on Agricola, but we don’t play much of anything anymore. :-(

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 26, 2009 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah, it's an odd one

Even things like Harry Potter/LoTR movies are not good for her.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 26, 2009 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

So I guess she likes

the Raccoon better than the Unicorn, then.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 26, 2009 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

That's why you don't play 400 games on BSW...

Also, with expansions starting to come out, the amount of repetition in the game is going to drop a lot.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 26, 2009 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yes, I totally binged, but

it was fun while it lasted.

Expansions don’t appeal to me, since it’s the whole system I burned out on.

Really great game though. I love how they built the deck-trimming concept that is meta-game for MTG and built it into the game itself. Genius.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 26, 2009 4:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

You're forgetting wargames

many of which are extraordinary if you’re willing to put the effort in.

Hell, I wouldn’t have known who Enver (see below) was if not for Pursuit of Glory.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 26, 2009 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not forgetting them,

but the post was already over-long, so I had to simplify.

If DFA is a Risk lover, he either never discovered wargames or else he did but doesn’t care for the fiddly complexness of them. Either way, I want to point him toward euros.

Also, wargames are more limited in who you can play them with. It’s a much narrower audience.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 26, 2009 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

getting family and friends to play risk was hard enough

before trying to get more complicated.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 26, 2009 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Most basic euros are much

easier to get friends and family to play than something like Risk. For one thing, they’re just better. For another, they make a greater effort to be accessible to everyone. That’s a big part of what the revolution was about. That’s why Settlers is the great gateway game. Lenscrafters, below, is a perfect example: not really a gamer type, but loves Settlers. There you go.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 26, 2009 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

The problem with Risk isn't complexity, it's that the game takes so bloody LONG

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 26, 2009 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't play a lot of board games other than Go (which of course isn't the contemporary sort of board game being talked about here)

But Settlers is definitely a favorite. Settlers + the Seafarers expansion + the right friends and I wouldn’t mind spending a whole weekend on it.

"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."

by lenscrafters on Aug 26, 2009 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Settlers + seafarers + cities and knights

+ the fisherman expansion (a must!)

+ a game of 10,000/Zonk dice on the side during the interminable “hmm?” periods when you’re not in the action

+ tequila

+ good friends

+ the A’s game on the radio

I’ve spent at least three Sundays like that so far this season…

"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard

by Gaijin_Suketto on Aug 26, 2009 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

I love cities & knights

but don’t care for Seafarers.

C&K makes it a totally different game. But in a good way.

Harder to get people to play C&K. Takes longer, too.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 26, 2009 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

It is important for a hardcore gamer

to have some deadbeat gamer friends.

You can oftentimes buy 10 hours of their reasonably undivided attention with a twelve pack and a couple of bummed smokes.

I keep cigarettes handy for just that purpose, even though I don’t smoke them, myself.

"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard

by Gaijin_Suketto on Aug 26, 2009 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

Just a little perspective from the other side.

Unlike you two, I have no particular desire to be right all the time. Among other things I don’t see how you learn anything that way. You can’t be right if you don’t venture an opinion, and then if the uninformed opinion you pick turns out to be wrong, how do you let go of it? In my life, I’ve found I learn a lot more by acting dumber than I am, not smarter. I was a smart kid for about 15 years, and I didn’t really start learning until I let go of that.

And yet, it does seem like many of the people closest to me in my life have been ones who like to be right all the time (including some who, alas, have not yet reached the level of introspection that Nick has). I seem to be drawn to your type.

Anyway, from someone with my perspective, the phrase here that jumps out at me is

failure to understand how nondebate people do not divorce themselves from their ideas, and allow for a critical examination of their beliefs as debaters do

Somehow that rings false to me. Yes, I know what you’re talking about intellectually, and yet at the same time my intuitive sense is that you rhetorically pugnacious know-it-alls have less capacity for intellectual self-doubt, not more.

So I wonder: Could it be that your ability to “divorce yourself from your ideas” is a psychological compartmentalization mechanism by which you say “that’s not me; that’s just what I think”, in order that you can remove that piece of yourself, put it on a shelf, point at it and say, “that is wrong” and thus avoid ever having to say (or even think) “I am wrong”?

I’m not saying it necessarily is. Just a thought to ponder, for if you’re ever feeling introspective.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 26, 2009 10:05 AM PDT up reply actions  

TWSS
you can remove that piece of yourself, put it on a shelf, point at it and say, "that is wrong"

A B -3X = Swedish girls like chocolate @('.')@

by monkeyball on Aug 26, 2009 10:09 AM PDT up reply actions  

A couple of points
You can’t be right if you don’t venture an opinion, and then if the uninformed opinion you pick turns out to be wrong, how do you let go of it?

You learn very early in debate that strategic retreat is often the most productive move.

you rhetorically pugnacious know-it-alls have less capacity for intellectual self-doubt, not more.
Glad I made your Christmas card list. But seriously if you can show me in an argument that I am wrong I am more than happy to accept it. I am not right all the time but if I think something I believe it is right until shown otherwise. I don’t see how you can live your life with the opposite assumption.
So I wonder: Could it be that your ability to "divorce yourself from your ideas" is a psychological compartmentalization mechanism by which you say "that’s not me; that’s just what I think", in order that you can remove that piece of yourself, put it on a shelf, point at it and say, "that is wrong" and thus avoid ever having to say (or even think) "I am wrong"?
Is there a difference between, when presented with a particular set of information I made deductions that proved faulty and my being is wrong?

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 26, 2009 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions  

I am not right all the time but if I think something I believe it is right until shown otherwise.

This.

If you don’t bring forward your idea, you’ll leave a discussion thinking “what he said made sense, but he’s wrong because of [untested idea x]”

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 26, 2009 10:17 AM PDT up reply actions  

What if I don't have an idea to bring forward?

For me, “my idea” is often not a contrary theory, but rather a sense that the original theorist has insufficient respect for what is unknown and is overreaching.

If I’m hanging out with, say, a bunch of philosophy majors, I can take the role of innocent skeptic and say things like “yes, but how do your really know that?” and it creates an interesting and enlightening discussion.

But if I’m with debate types and I try that approach it’s frequently a dead end, and I get a reaction like, “OK, fine, so what’s your position?” and if I don’t have a position then I’m told I’m not being constructive and their idea continues to rule the roost until it is dethroned by another.

It’s not that I can’t play the game debate-style. As DFA has noticed, I will readily slip into it sometimes. I just don’t like it as much and I find it limiting to be that way all the time.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 26, 2009 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think the thing is that we're different people

I have thoughts (of wildly varying degrees of sophistication) on most issues. If I hold them back in productive conversation, I won’t know if they’re right.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 26, 2009 10:43 AM PDT up reply actions  

I empathize with your position...

However, I end up holding back a lot of my thoughts to ensure productive conversation, rather than hinder it.

Are any of your deeply-held opinions so strange or possibly offensive that you keep them to yourself rather than throw them to the wall and see if they stick?

"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard

by Gaijin_Suketto on Aug 26, 2009 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

Depends on the audience

Here? Yes, some

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 26, 2009 3:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

[cough]

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 26, 2009 3:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

LMAO

CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."

by DMOAS on Aug 26, 2009 6:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

there is a not enough evidence to meet affirmative burdens argument

happens all the time

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 26, 2009 10:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

Of course it's a compartmentalization mechanism

It’s a method for holding arguments which allows them to happen without each side wanting to exterminate the other side and their families. Personally, I think I’d rather those impulses were “compartmentalized”.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 26, 2009 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions  

TWSS
I think I’d rather those impulses were "compartmentalized"

A B -3X = Swedish girls like chocolate @('.')@

by monkeyball on Aug 26, 2009 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions  

That's an important thing to bring up...

It’s important for people to remember that it is generally in their best interests for society to be functional, and for society to be functional, it is very very important for people to settle disputes without resorting to murder. It is something that we, as humans, can never take for granted, and we should be thankful every day that we have the restraint not to strangle someone when they anger us, and that 99+% of the people we see every day have mastered that same discipline.

"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard

by Gaijin_Suketto on Aug 26, 2009 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

Christ, what a Hoxha

A B -3X = Swedish girls like chocolate @('.')@

by monkeyball on Aug 26, 2009 9:52 AM PDT up reply actions  

Wow a non TWSS monkeyball post

This has become a good thread.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 26, 2009 9:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

I enver you.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 26, 2009 10:10 AM PDT up reply actions  

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 26, 2009 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

1. In a quality education system people wouldn’t ever get scared or feel self-conscious? Really? Damn. All I ever feel is scared and self-conscious, and I guarantee it’s not because I didn’t take debate.

2. If you’re honest with yourself, you’ll admit that you relayed that anecdote partially out of pride.

3. In debate/discussion, there is a fine line between “critical examination of beliefs” (noble!) and “showing off” (totally insufferable!). I’ve always found it pretty easy to convince myself that I was engaging in the former when really I was in full-on “look how smart I am” mode. Invariably, when I push push push an argument until the other person shuts down or becomes flustered, it’s not because they’re lame or stupid or wimpy, or are cowering before my prodigious command of the facts, it’s because I’m being an aggressive jerk.

This is all to say that a) it’s important to constantly evaluate your motives, b) when indignation and compassion are in tension, pick compassion, and c) being smart and knowledgeable is good, as far as it goes, but in terms of your sense of self, it’s probably a good idea to diversify (“Worship your intellect, being seen as smart — you will end up feeling stupid, a fraud, always on the verge of being found out.”).

by 74mk on Aug 26, 2009 5:41 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

right on, doctor.

"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard

by Gaijin_Suketto on Aug 26, 2009 6:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

I did it 90% to show off 10% because it fit the discussion

I have a very healthy ego, Im not going to deny that, nor am I going to deny that at times I have sacrificed being amicable for being right. That being said I don’t think I have ever been scared in an academic context. There really is nothing to be scared of, either I know all I need to or I need to learn more, which is far from intimidating. The point I was trying to make is that If you have good ideas or arguments you shouldn’t be scared of expressing them. If you don’t have good ideas you should be dedicated to learning enough to have good ideas or be accepting of your lack of knowledge and ask questions rather than take a firm position so you can evaluate others and adopt one of theirs or create an amalgamation of your own. The fear of that process I don’t understand.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 26, 2009 6:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

The fear of expressing ideas

can come from a family in which children are disciplined strictly and not allowed to let their egos develop.

It can come from speaking English as a second language and being afraid of not being able to express oneself eloquently.

It can come from low self-esteem.

It can come from being raised in an environment with a sibling who wins the fight for attention.

"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard

by Gaijin_Suketto on Aug 27, 2009 7:33 AM PDT up reply actions  

Hey 74mk!

Good to see you again, Bro. Been hanging out at the new speakeasy, have you?

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 26, 2009 10:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

any of y'all ever read james loewen?

lies my teacher told me

in addition to the excellent content about the individual historic incidents in the book, the introduction rails the american education system for it’s simplified, dumbed down, memorization-based strategy.

have a look…

by jlanning17 on Aug 25, 2009 9:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

I got through my education by figuring out the system

Didn’t read any of the texts. Didn’t take notes. Didn’t study. Barely paid attention in class. Just keyed in on what the professors thought were key things on the subject and then made up my argument on maximizing those keys without necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with them. Slap a few pseudo-quotes to back them up and done. Thankfully I didn’t spend too much time with straight multi-choice questions, but all those required was spending just a hair more attention in class. To me broad range “studying” or memorization was a complete waste of time since only 5% would show up on the test. Pay close enough attention and you’ll know exactly what would be tested. Rarely did they bother to actually challenge us as students to really free think and generally those were a lot more interesting/fun.

The funniest thing (which basically lends to the what your book seems to describe) was elementary schools “prepping” us for what to expect in middle school which turned out to be a watered down version of what elementary school ended up being, middle school “prepping” for high school to the same effect, high school for college, same effect. Each level should challenge more instead of challenge less.

CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."

by DMOAS on Aug 25, 2009 10:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

That's not a bad thing

memorization, unless you’re some form of savant, isn’t going to help you much in life.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 26, 2009 9:13 AM PDT up reply actions  

but I know ALL the prepositions god damn it!

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 26, 2009 9:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

From abaft to ... um, without?

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 26, 2009 10:12 AM PDT up reply actions  

I can totally sing the song and abaft isn't in it

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 26, 2009 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions  

I didn't know there was a song.

Is that a Schoolhouse Rock thing?

When I was a tiny tot I got it in my head to find all the prepositions, but that was in the dark ages and the only research technique available was to go through the dictionary page by page looking for them. Abaft was the first. I didn’t get very far. I think I pooped out somewhere in the early B’s.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 26, 2009 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions  

It wasn't schoolhouse rock it was my class

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 26, 2009 10:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

Hm, I'm going to have to disagree with this

Saying it’s not worth the effort is one thing. Saying it’s not useful… well, I just don’t buy it. I’m glad that I don’t have to go consult an appendix, or worse yet an archive, every time I want to remember who commanded the U.S. Third Corps at Gettysburg, or what scope of liability is, or whatever.

It’s highly useful, but if you’re correctly taught it should come as a matter of course, not as something that you have to “gird up your loins” and suffer through.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 26, 2009 9:44 AM PDT up reply actions  

memorization should come from familiarity

not cramming

I’ve taken a lot of physics exams, and they were generally open note or open book or open something. But if you are constantly referring to the notes in order to remember equations, then you are almost certainly tanking the test. When you understand the subject, memorization comes almost for free.

by colin on Aug 26, 2009 9:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

This is a much better way of saying what I was thinking.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 26, 2009 9:52 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'm sort of curious

to hear from people in other fields about this.

I think that physics is pretty good in terms of comprehension vs memorization. Pretty much everything comes down to some simple principles and math.

My sister and step-brothers are all current or recently graduated med students. I’ve always thought that their curriculum involved too much rote memorization, but maybe they understand the human body the way that I understand Newton’s laws.

by colin on Aug 26, 2009 10:05 AM PDT up reply actions  

Doctors (based upon my very limited knowledge) are different

In that they tend to know a lot more facts. There are, however, also a LOT more facts they don’t know (but know where to find).

For lawyers, at least doing what I do, you don’t learn (much) law until you have a specific case in front of you.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 26, 2009 10:23 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'll second the "if you're looking things up, you're tanking the test" assessment

The use of open notes is to fit very specific facts or rules into a framework which you should already have built ahead of time.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 26, 2009 9:57 AM PDT up reply actions  

You're both right

Yes, memorization is certainly a good thing. Actually being able to retain things (of which I’ve always been poor at) without being able to key into something more broader. For instance, your historic references, would never click in for me. Ever. Just not how my mind maintains info. Something like “what scope of liability is” assuming i ever learned it, would stick in my head, in my own words with a self-created identity based on my personal understanding of it. That being said, what I lack completely in terms of remembering dates (did just forget a deadline again) I’m able to make up for in terms of being an encyclopedia of “how to” even if I’m figuring it out on the fly. Because of my experiences I’m able to see a solution before actually knowing anything about how to do it, which I’ve found (within the scope of all the people I work with) to be very rare. So I’d offer that yes, memorization is a very key ingredient to education/learning, when it becomes the only thing, just like the reverse as you correctly point out, we have problems,

CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."

by DMOAS on Aug 26, 2009 6:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

That is rare, doctor...

My dad is like that with machinery… It’s like he psychically goes into the future, sees the broken machine fixed, and then traces the steps backwards til the beginning, then proceeds to fix the machine.

"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard

by Gaijin_Suketto on Aug 27, 2009 7:34 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'll agree with that

Knowing zero facts is bad. Doing nothing but memorizing things is bad.

If you actually learn things, you’ll remember the important facts and know where to look up the rest.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 26, 2009 9:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

I subscribe to E.D. Hirsch's theory

(before it got warped by the political debate).

Thinking is more important than memorizing, but it is essential to have a body of facts in place, so that you have something to think about. Conveniently, little kids’ brains are wired to want to memorize stuff, so you may as well take the opportunity to pack them full with useful facts. If you don’t, they’ll just fill them up with non-useful facts anyway, like where to find all the coins in Mario Brothers, or the text of every MTG card ever printed.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 26, 2009 10:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

Great Book

I use to quote it a lot in HS history and flummox the student teacher.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 25, 2009 10:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think history should be taught using games

Way more effective than lecture… give people an incentive to actually learn the stuff…

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 25, 2009 9:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

I actually had a teacher in high school

would did that. Oddly enough he was a PE teacher. But like you said, was more successful in keeping us engaged on the subject and it turned out he knew what he was doing.

CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."

by DMOAS on Aug 25, 2009 10:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't know about history...

People seem to believe in this thing called “linear time” and things like “beginnings” and “ends”…

They say that you’d better be careful, or history will repeat itself…

Then, you look at a country like China or India, with thousands of years of written history, and realize, damn, history repeats itself over and over and over again… they just change clothes and use more powerful weapons…

"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard

by Gaijin_Suketto on Aug 26, 2009 8:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

There's a sense of irony with History buffs and politicians

Too many politicians (or more importantly people in power) don’t know their history and aren’t aware they’re repeating the same things that ultimately failed. But they do wear cool new “in style” clothes and throw down money into R&D to capitalize on what engineers know about current weapons to create better ones. Thankfully i’m neither cause you wouldn’t want to give me any sense of power over people. There’s a scary thought.

CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."

by DMOAS on Aug 26, 2009 6:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Most of the time, people who say that they would be a horrible leader

would actually be a great leader, but not within the context of what humans expect from a leader today.

I’d go into detail of what all my policies would be, but even framing them as mere theoretical ideas has the potential to be inflammatory.

However, what I can say is that true human-level artificial intelligence will most likely be a reality within our lifetimes, and possibly even before the A’s win their next World Series…. And once computers can bootstrap themselves past the level of mere humans, that will soon make unaltered humans obsolete

"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard

by Gaijin_Suketto on Aug 27, 2009 7:48 AM PDT up reply actions  

I wrote a paper on this in my Philosophy and Technology class back in college.

I think the studies used to say around 2020, but it’s probably slipped past that some.

by LoneStranger on Sep 1, 2009 10:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

There are two versions of "history" in an academic setting

“History” as it is taught in the high school setting is mostly a memorization of dates and facts. “Who was the general who led assault A.” What happened in Location B at time C. etc, etc. I hated this.

Then I went to college, and history became about so much more. Cause and effect. Meaning. Context. What does it mean that X happened at this point in time relative to what we see today? How did Person A’s actions affect a series of events. Event B was recorded by this person – what does that person’s perspective tell us about the relative truthfulness of his/her account of the event? This is so much more interesting.

by RickeySteals on Aug 26, 2009 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

Can you expand a little on what you mean by "debate based"?

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Aug 26, 2009 7:02 AM PDT up reply actions  

Structure classes in the Socratic method

Its harder for maths and science but with the humanities and especially history making the curriculum about oral discussion of events in a framework where students are required to research and support or oppose an idea. I think for one thing it shames some people into learning when they get embarrass by other students, for the other I think our society lacks the ability to internalize information, dissect it critically, and be able to discuss public policy in a constructive manner, all of which debate teaches you.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 26, 2009 8:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think it would be good to add that to the curriculum

but I think students should also learn essay writing and research, as well.

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Aug 26, 2009 9:11 AM PDT up reply actions  

Essay writing yes

and the research is a part of the debate concept. I more meant that how often have you ever used your multiple choice test taking skills in real life? What about your doing boring ass homework that teaches you nothing skills?

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 26, 2009 9:13 AM PDT up reply actions  

I guess it depends on how you learn to do those things

Taking multiple-choice tests can teach you time management and logical problem analysis — I bought a Princeton Review book before taking my GREs, and it was actually fascinating to learn about the structure of the test, and to use that knowledge to help me figure out the right answers.

As for boring-ass homework that teaches you nothing skills…well, you’re making it sort of definitionally worthless, there. I loved doing geometry proofs in high school — in fact, it was the only kind of math I didn’t hate. I enjoyed the problem sets I had in my college course on human origins and evolution. You could say the same thing about debating stupid resolutions with dumb-ass judges who don’t flow and pay no attention to the arguments.

Maybe you hated or would have hated the homework I liked. Again, one size doesn’t fit all. Give the kids some variety (quality variety!), make them stretch themselves and experiment.

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Aug 26, 2009 9:33 AM PDT up reply actions  

I completely skipped Geometry because there was a cute debate girl in my class

so I didn’t learn anything from that.

I don’t mind if they don’t flow but I agree I hate judges that don’t pay attention.

I just think kids from a debate academy would be excellent citizens and more knowledgeable in general that what our current system puts out.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 26, 2009 9:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

Well, if I can be a gadfly here, I'd say

that multiple choice test taking skills can be very useful.

As someone who was good at multiple choice tests, I would say that the key skill is figuring out what the test-graders want you to say, whether it’s right or not. I would also say that knowing how to psych out the test is far more important than actually knowing the material: someone who is good at test-taking but knows diddly-squat about the subject can often still outscore someone who knows the subject well but is a lousy test-taker.

If your future is a world where butt-kissing and telling people what they want to hear is more important than actually knowing what you’re talking about — which describes maybe about 75% of the business/corporate/bureaucracy world — then those are useful skills.

(Um, not that I’m cynical or anything….)

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 26, 2009 10:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

Im good at them too

they just have never been useful for me.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 26, 2009 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

Not all debates are oral

A lot of them can happen in essay writing. I wish I could remember the writers of Philosophy of Mind in the bay area who had a on again/off again philosophical argument through a series of books. Nothing wrong with essay writing, etc. And that certainly can’t be replaced by speech.

CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."

by DMOAS on Aug 26, 2009 6:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

Speaking as someone who went to law school

It doesn’t really achieve all of that. It just means someone who has no idea what they’re talking about spends as much time talking as the person who does.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 26, 2009 9:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

The debate centric classes I have been in have all been fairly successful

The key is to ridicule the person who doesn’t know what the hell they are talking about.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 26, 2009 9:18 AM PDT up reply actions  

How many classes are you talking, and what were they trying to teach?

My experience is that even with motivated students, Socratic does a terrible job of actually teaching knowledge.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 26, 2009 9:20 AM PDT up reply actions  

3 in college were actually done in that style

but I had several seminars that were an amalgamation of traditional and Socratic that worked well

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 26, 2009 9:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

I dunno, dfa

If you’re arguing for public humiliation as a positive goal in the classroom, it sounds to me like the main goal is reinforcing your sense of intellectual/rhetorical superiority in comparison to the other students.

How does it help you learn if the teacher humiliates Lucy for not doing the reading? Or do you think the threat of public shaming helps Lucy?

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Aug 26, 2009 9:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

It gets Lucy to read for next class

The goal isn’t public shaming, the goal is to make not learning unacceptable.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 26, 2009 9:41 AM PDT up reply actions  

I don't think shaming has a great track record

Shaming Lucy about wanting to have sex doesn’t make her behave responsibly about sex — it’s more likely to make her have unprotected sex or engage in any number of risky, self-destructive activities.

Shaming Lucy about being bad at sports doesn’t seem like a great way to encourage her to be more physically active.

And shaming Lucy in class is likely, I’d think, to make her just hate the whole educational process.

And I think in high school, with its cliques, rampant sexism (which we’re both familiar with from competitive debate), different social/developmental paces…it just sounds like a really risky basket to put all the eggs in.

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Aug 26, 2009 9:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

Thats a fair critic

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 26, 2009 9:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

Just to date myself here

I debated back before there was such a thing as a “critic”. Also, back when a topical counterplan was unheard of.

I’m a hypo-tester, and unashamed of it!

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Aug 26, 2009 9:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

wow

you are old :-P

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 26, 2009 9:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

Did they have perms yet, back in the New Stone Age?

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 26, 2009 9:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

Their perms were reserved for hair

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 26, 2009 10:00 AM PDT up reply actions  

The idea behind it is this:

If you know not reading will cause you to be humiliated, you’re more likely to read and prepare. Reading and preparing is good, therefore threat of humiliation is good. Threat of humiliation is empty without actual humiliation. (see Paper Chase for an extreme example)

The problem is that in my experience it doesn’t work very well.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 26, 2009 9:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

That

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Aug 26, 2009 9:57 AM PDT up reply actions  

That's a limited circumstance, and in that circumstance

it could be useful. But I think that the actual mechanism of shame, especially in high school, would very likely end up being based on other things, and wouldn’t end up being productive.

Not, “I’m ashamed of not doing the reading,” but, “I’m ashamed of myself/my stupidity/my gender/my shyness.”

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Aug 26, 2009 9:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

Ive seen it work quite well in college

but that is a very SSS

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 26, 2009 10:01 AM PDT up reply actions  

My intuitive sense is that it would

work much better on boys than on girls. (By which I really mean that it would ruin only some boys while it would ruin nearly all girls.)

Either way, do you really want to write off half the population?

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 26, 2009 11:01 AM PDT up reply actions  

Any time anyone tried to shame me in school,

I would prove I was utterly shameless.

The most fun one was the time in marketing class in high school when we were supposed to dress professionally for a day and do mock interviews. For weeks, the teacher picked on me, the class slob, saying that I’d better look sharp or I would fail the assignment.

Of course, I came to school that day dressed as a Grateful Dead roadie, with tie-dye and fake beard and sandals. During my “interview,” i talked like Shaggy from Scooby-Doo and sniffed a lot, like I had a coke habit or something… I got an F, but it was the funnest “F” ever!

"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard

by Gaijin_Suketto on Aug 26, 2009 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

Frankly, I could do without the Socratic method

It’s possible that I’ve only managed to be exposed to a truly bastardized version of it, but by and large, I’ve found it to be a tool which just amplifies whatever problems the instructor already has.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 26, 2009 9:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

I've always viewed the Socratic method

As pushing the individual to make assessments of an issue on their own. It encourages free thinking while probing the “edges” of what that individual thinks in order for them to understand themselves better, for them to understand the concept at hand better, and for the person doing the pushing to understand the individual better. In the dialogs Socrates never claimed to know what was pious, etc. He simply pushed the individuals he encountered to better understand the issues of the day. Socrates was learning as well as the individual, only what they were learning wasn’t necessarily the same thing. But take law for instance (since that’s your field). You do a case study. You create an argument. Your professor pushes at the flaws in the argument, encouraging you to create count arguments and refine your argument as a whole. By doing so, you become more skilled as both seeing the bigger picture and flaws within your own arguments as well as how others may view your arguments so you can be prepared to counter.

In fairness, that idea may have been warp over time into something much different.

CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."

by DMOAS on Aug 26, 2009 6:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

I like that sort of Socratic method.

I was surprised when the term first came up here because it didn’t sound right to me. I just assumed it has a different meaning in debate context.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 26, 2009 10:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

Whoa, wait.

Are you saying that using embarrassment to shame people into learning is a good thing? If so, wow, I really don’t agree with you on that.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 26, 2009 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

Perhapse I didn't word it as I should have

I think debate creates a culture where a lack of knowledge isn’t acceptable, and that that culture is generally better thing than we have in our schools now. I think the concept of winning an losing plays a big part in that, no one likes to be routed, which is what happens if you don’t know what the hell you are talking about.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 26, 2009 10:57 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I still disagree with that.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 26, 2009 11:01 AM PDT up reply actions  

It sounds like a method of learning

that puts non-competitive people at a disadvantage.

"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard

by Gaijin_Suketto on Aug 26, 2009 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

Life puts noncompetitive people at a disadvantage

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 26, 2009 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

True, but isn't the whole point of society

to make the world better than the state of nature?

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 26, 2009 4:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

It's definitely what the cavemen were aiming for...

I have a conservative and socially Darwinistic friend. He hates poor people and he’d be rid of them if he could. He hates the infirm and disabled and would be rid of them if he could. He’s not racist, but he sure would be rid of non-Christians if he could. When his unspayed cat got pregnant and gave birth, he put the cats in a sack and drowned them in a pond.

I also have a highly empathetic friend. She cares for sick animals and cries when other people tell sad stories. She’s always got some recovering addict living with her. Some of them, she’s a great help to. Others rip her off and leave. If it were up to her, no one would ever die, or be yelled at, or scolded, and everyone would live happily ever after.

Once, I got drunk with the angry dude, and he said that in his heart of hearts, he wished he were the only living being in the universe, so there wouldn’t be anyone or anything to piss him off.

Once (well actually, more than once), I got high with the hippie lady, and she said in her heart of hearts, she wished that all living beings in the universe truly knew and felt they were as one, so there would be only the great oneness, and nothing on the “outside” to hassle or harm it…

"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard

by Gaijin_Suketto on Aug 26, 2009 4:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

Dude, that's awesome.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 26, 2009 10:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yet another good read DFA

Thanks for churning out thought-provoking discussion.

Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.

by notsellingjeans on Aug 25, 2009 3:25 PM PDT reply actions  

YW

Though my desire to do so gets muted when people go after me like they did in Sunday’s recap thread.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 25, 2009 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

Further proof that my policy of avoiding game recaps/game threads is a wise one

If it’s any consolation, it reads quite clearly to me that the reactions have nothing to do with what you said

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 25, 2009 4:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

What does the last part mean?

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 25, 2009 4:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

I mean there's a pavlovian element

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 25, 2009 5:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah, Nico keeps insisting that I hate and pick on him

I just don’t get that. I mean there are two things that I object to A) His inappropriate humor that often targets groups that I care about, and B) My view that he is generally wrong about baseball most of the time. A has nothing to do with B. As for A the community guidelines of this site are suppose to prevent the behavior he exhibits, and as for B if you don’t like people disagreeing with your baseball related opinion why do you write for a baseball related blog? I mean if I didn’t want to discuss or debate an opinion with people I just keep it to myself. Objecting to people strongly disagreeing with you just seems to me to be at odds with being a front page writer for a baseball blog.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 25, 2009 7:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

What I find ironic about B

is that for a sports writer, that’s exactly what you want. Disagreement, debating, rebuttals all drive conversation/threads not to mention makes for a much more interest dialog. One of the things that made this entire thread so long was the fact there have been disagreements about all sorts of interesting sidebars and tangents.

CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."

by DMOAS on Aug 25, 2009 7:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

I appreciated your comments about A in that thread as well

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 25, 2009 7:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

No problem

things like that bother me in the same way they bother you. Particularly with the sort of responses they seem to bring.

CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."

by DMOAS on Aug 25, 2009 10:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

I would suggest you point it out

as it appears that anything I say will get dismissed as “its just DFA being DFA again.” The more people that bring it up, email blez, etc the more likely that something gets done about it.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 25, 2009 10:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'll keep that in mind the next time I'm paying attention

Unfortunately i have an attention span of a… ooooh what was that! What were we talking about? Gnats or something like that? Anyway. Um…

CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."

by DMOAS on Aug 25, 2009 11:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

"game threads" and "recap threads" are anything but

each one always devolves into a series of inside jokes, awkward internet sexual innuendo, and (often incoherent) rambling. the innuendo parts are actually pretty uncomfortable to read.

by jlanning17 on Aug 25, 2009 9:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

and

it is pretty much a guarantee that if the game was a W, there will be a huuuuuuuuge excess of innuendo, while if it was a L, the thread will be dominated by “geren/cust/sweeney/etc sucks! i am going to drop a lot of F-bombs and USE A LOT OF CAPS LOCK YELLING ABOUT IT!” and the hyperbolic “we’re all gonna die!” really does come out

by jlanning17 on Aug 25, 2009 9:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Actually, we're trying to encourage people to keep the innuendo to the game threads

Not everyone follows game threads and for the people who come here to read the recaps and the comments in them, it can be distracting to have a bunch of off-topic stuff there while the game threads are pretty much anything goes.

The Oakland A's: Pissing off fathers of disappointing baseball players who still managed
to be better than their dads (charter club members: Tom Grieve & Ed Crosby)
Last of the Ninth - Photography

by Flashfire on Aug 25, 2009 9:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

More on the innuendo

First, the game threads have changed over the years based on who’s actually participating. 3 or 4 years ago, there wasn’t much innuendo, but there was a huge, huge problem with lots of ANers posting doom-and-gloom comments whenever anything went wrong. That’s where “WE’RE ALL GONNA DIE!!” came from — also, the CGV guidelines about repetitive comments and pointless negativity. Nowadays, the tendency is for people to make understated comments in response to mid-game disasters.

Second, the innuendo stuff is really mainly inspired by a handful of ANers who are really into it. If a couple of them decide to start posting different kinds of comments, it’ll change — and then there’ll be another gamethread issue to deal with.

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Aug 26, 2009 7:19 AM PDT up reply actions  

True on both counts, but

I would say that the change in negativity comes from expectations of the team. When the A’s were actually good and we reasonably expected to make the playoffs every year, unexpected badness was met with gross overreaction.

Now that everyone has pretty much come to terms with the fact that the team sucks, there’s a sense of humor about it.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 26, 2009 11:03 AM PDT up reply actions  

game threads are a different kind of community with its own rules

and Im fine with that because I know that going in. Nice funny people. I have a high tolerance for sexual innuendo in the right context though. The complaining there is fine for me since when bad things happen while youre watching a game you don’t really care that they really are a good player.

The recap is neutral ground though, so the battle commences, and the innuendo and stuff gets way more awkward since not everyone is in on it.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 25, 2009 10:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

Kind of like

watching a couple really going at it (if you know what I mean). Sure you’re rooting for them to be successful, but you can do that from several blocks way, preferably with their blinds shut this time.

CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."

by DMOAS on Aug 25, 2009 11:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

i was thinking more of

when you’re a kid and you go with your parents to a party and there are all of these adults

by jlanning17 on Aug 26, 2009 6:14 AM PDT up reply actions  

and sometimes, you can get access to the punch bowl when no adults are looking...

but be careful when trying to swig off of random beer cans, ’cause some of them might have cigarette butts in them.

"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard

by Gaijin_Suketto on Aug 26, 2009 8:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

Chewing tobacco is hella disgusting and the MLB should ban chew.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 26, 2009 6:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

Really? Ban it?

What’s your rationale? I mean besides just that you think it’s icky. Health hazard? Example to impressionable young viewers?

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 26, 2009 10:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

A ton of kids on my hs team did it because its what big leaguers do

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 26, 2009 10:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm okay with banning chew,

as long as they allow players and coaches to smoke on the field and in the dugouts…

“Now batting… Travis Buck…”

“Yes, Buck is taking that last bong rip before stepping into the batters’ box. Did you know, Vince, that Buck hits 90 points higher while high?”

“Why, yes, Ken, but unfortunately, that’s negated by Jim Leyland’s genius in the other dugout. He manages 72% more efficiently while chainsmoking.

"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard

by Gaijin_Suketto on Aug 27, 2009 7:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

how do i edit or delete a post?

so anyway…

i was thinking more of like when you’re a kid and you go with your parents to a party and you’re hanging out with the other kids and then the adults are getting a little tipsy and making jokes and remarks about each other and its this weird flirty stuff that leaves you with a question mark in your thought bubble. and then you get a little older and you’re like “ohhhhhhhhh , that was all actually pretty funny.”

like i said in another reply below, i think it just seems really awkward because i’ve never met any of these people, so no offense guys, but a bunch of you just come off as weirdos. the internet is a crazy place…

AN Day 2010 or bust!

by jlanning17 on Aug 26, 2009 6:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

We just come off as weirdos?

Shit, wait until you actually meet us!

"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."

by mikev on Aug 26, 2009 7:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

ha

i actually have a feeling that after meeting you people i’ll feel very at home with the bunch. dead animals and alcohol, alone or combined, are part of my life fuel…

by jlanning17 on Aug 26, 2009 8:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

the problem is...

that after you’ve filled the dead animal’s carcass with alcohol, you’re not going to be able to fit anything else in without all the alcohol coming out…

"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard

by Gaijin_Suketto on Aug 26, 2009 8:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

Meeting you didn't shock me at all.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 26, 2009 8:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'm much more normal than most people would believe.

Though, I was behaving fairly well last weekend.

"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."

by mikev on Aug 26, 2009 10:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

God thats so long winded.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 26, 2009 6:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

Brilliant in it's simplicity.

CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."

by DMOAS on Aug 26, 2009 6:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

We are, we are.

As to the innuendo thing, that just came about because some of us clicked that way (guilty, so guilty). I apologize if I made you feel uncomfortable in any way. For what its worth, I, and I know many of us, have toned it down a lot as of late.

Having said that, there is so much more to us than all the silly innuendo and frustrating negativity you’ve seen in the game threads. I hope you do come to AN Day 2010 and get to experience that.

Hey, Raburn! YOU ever dive into the shallow end of a pool?--noava22

by lynnzgal on Aug 26, 2009 6:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

i am all for some innuendo

but i think it’s internet aspect of it that weirds me out. maybe if i was a RAF and had met people and could put faces and real personalities to these screennames, i would get more humor out of it.

so i will retract my expressed distaste for the innuendo-filled game threads and re-describe it as something that just doesn’t interest me.

by jlanning17 on Aug 26, 2009 6:13 AM PDT up reply actions  

Well I don't find it that weird

Yes its easier if you actually meet these folks in real life, but if you hang around there for a while its easy to get to to know people.

Most of the time it doesn’t really interest me but Ill indulge every once in a while.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 26, 2009 8:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

Different tastes.

I love the innuendo. I can understand how many people wouldn’t. I also understand that you might regret that there isn’t a game thread for people like you, but hey, can’t have everything. I like my innuendo-laden game threads and don’t want to give them up.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 26, 2009 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions  

I feel like we should hug.

"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."

by mikev on Aug 26, 2009 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

that reply lacks the necessary innuendo for the context

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 26, 2009 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

I was going to grab his ass when we hugged.

"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."

by mikev on Aug 26, 2009 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

Like you'd ever really do that

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Aug 26, 2009 6:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

Much better

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 26, 2009 6:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

There's nothing awkward about innuendo.

"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."

by mikev on Aug 26, 2009 7:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

Holy carp...

that just prompted me to read through that whole thing.

FWIW, I appreciate that you speak your mind on these things. Also the “rape” comment from earlier. I was going to respond to that much as you did, but mine wouldn’t have been as good, and you beat me to it anyway.

by oblique on Aug 25, 2009 4:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

Thank you.

I appreciate that.

DFA

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 25, 2009 7:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

Dude, this post is epic.

I forgot it was even about Mychael Urban. There’s like ten posts worth of off-topic discussions here.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 26, 2009 4:42 PM PDT reply actions  

Dude 625+ comments... its nuts.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 26, 2009 6:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

Most commented on non game thread ever! Woot Woot

and weve got the undisputed title within reach!

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 26, 2009 6:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

What I would give for an undisputed title :-)

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Aug 26, 2009 6:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

King of Puns,

you’ll always be King of Puns.

Hey, Raburn! YOU ever dive into the shallow end of a pool?--noava22

by lynnzgal on Aug 26, 2009 6:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

If it's undisputed, why do they keep fighting over it?

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 26, 2009 10:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not yet.

There was a thread this year that had over 900 comments (nearly reaches the thousand comment threshold).

CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."

by DMOAS on Aug 26, 2009 6:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

Its not in the most commented list on the side bar

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 26, 2009 6:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

You'd remember it if you thought about it

It had significant, and lasting, implications.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 26, 2009 6:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

OH SHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! PT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah sad day for the blog, that was such bullshit.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 26, 2009 6:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

Weren't some of the Swisher/Haren threads approaching that threshold, too?

Maybe not, but if so, it’s only because they got chopped up into multiple threads to make them manageable. I’m sure each of those trades got well over 2000 total comments.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 26, 2009 9:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

Im going by side bar

so yours gets DQed. 661 is what we need

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 26, 2009 10:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

If you do it on purpose it's no longer cool.

This thread is awesome because of the abundance of amazing discussions, not because of the content count.

Or to put it another way, the count is a consequence of the awesomeness, not the cause. Any time to try to tweak the indicator and not the actual effect you’re bound to push the two apart.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Aug 26, 2009 10:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

Im not actually trying to

Its what I saw when I was thinking holly shit this thread has a fuckton of comments. Do I really care? No. This thread has crazy tangential awesomeness.

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 26, 2009 10:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

You had me at fuckton,

Mo Rocca.

Hey, Raburn! YOU ever dive into the shallow end of a pool?--noava22

by lynnzgal on Aug 26, 2009 11:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

He had me a holly shit

Sounds so festive.

CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."

by DMOAS on Aug 26, 2009 11:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

This.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 27, 2009 9:52 AM PDT up reply actions  

Holly Shit we did it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

festive like that?

You do that and pretty soon your world turns into some kind of crazy postmodernist dystopian nightmare where nothing is actually true anymore. - Paul Thomas

by designatedforassignment on Aug 27, 2009 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

He see a new tangent coming on... or not

CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."

by DMOAS on Aug 26, 2009 11:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

Thanks, DFA! Thanks, iglew!, Thanks PT!

Thanks nevermoor, DMOAS, and the rest of you. Fucking awesome thread.

My f’ing job precludes me from much AN participation during the week. And when I see a thread that interests me that already has a couple hundred comments, I’m loathe to click on it – if I don’t plow through all the comments before I have to dash off to work, I’ll never be able to find the ones I’ve missed without starting over again.

So here I am, pissing away half my Saturday reading something approaching 700 comments. I don’t regret it, either. And here I am, as is my wont, making a comment that no one will read in what is by now a defunct thread. No matter; I’ll proclaim to my four walls and to the internet ether that this was a lot of fun. Hell, I only agree with half of DFA’s argument (of course Urban’s comments on UZR were not merely ignorant, but proudly and aggressively ignorant; on the other hand I thought his comments on Buck were perfectly reasonable and in fact informative, not that I think there’s much chance that Buck’s adjustment will result in a sea change in his fortunes), but that’s not the point, and by the end I’d forgotten that this thread was about Urban to begin with.

Once again, awesome discussion. Lotsa smart folks here. Now I’m off, have to kill more time looking at that David Foster Wallace speech that one of you linked to, since my initial glance at it made me decide (against my will) that it was something I had to make time to read in full. Damn it!

by Faust on Aug 29, 2009 1:31 PM PDT reply actions  

THIS.

I was in the process of relocating while dealing with school stuff last week, and this is definitely one of those threads to go back to.

"I generally avoid temptation unless I can't resist it" ~ Mae West

by Blicks on Aug 29, 2009 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

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