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Around SBN: Notre Dame's Turnaround: How Have The Irish Done It?

Position Player Overload-- Who Goes or Stays Down the Road?


You gotta hand it to Billy-- he took a system basically becoming bereft of quality everyday players or prospects and restocked in a hurry, much like his similar turnover of the pitching in the past couple of years. So let's size this one up.

CATCHERS: Suzuki, Powell, Donaldson

Would think status quo next year, but Donaldson might be ready to challenge 'Zook for the everyday job by 2011. Given the value of the position, would not be shocked by a trade around then.

CORNER INFIELDERS: Crosby (where else can you list him?), Cardenas (I'm going to put him at middle infield, too), Kennedy (ditto), Garciaparra, Wallace, Barton, Everidge, Carter.

All right, I'll say it. I think Brett Wallace gets the 3B job next spring. Can/will the A's sign either Crosby or Kennedy to play a utility role? The problem with Crosby is that he doesn't want to do it, but he may find the pickings slim in terms of a starting SS position. The problem with Kennedy is Mark Ellis, who is signed through 2010. Nomah's obviously gone. Would think Barton's on a really short leash now-- since Everidge and his right hand bat may be a better stopgap until Carter arrives. Or maybe Wallace gets converted to 1B (and Cardenas is the 3b man of future) and Carter is slated for a DH role, or vice-versa. But that seems very speculative-- even more than this entire exercise.

MIDDLE INFIELDERS: Cardenas, Kennedy, Pennington, Ellis, Weeks, Green

SS is simple now. Pennington plays until Green is ready, which is probably 2011 at earliest. 2B?? One more year of Ellis-- given his injury record and declining bat, Kennedy as a roving ultilty player/spot starter and injury replacement on the ready makes a lot of sense. Not sure given this year's performance if A's have coin to give AK what he wants, though. Weeks is either ready by 2011 or the A's use their option on Ellis.

OUTFIELDERS/DH: Hairston, Davis, Sweeney, Cunningham, Cust, Doolittle, Buck

Hairston is a given. Davis is fast pushing Sweeney into 4th OF status. Doolittle is fast approaching. Cust is a stopgap at DH until both Carter and Wallace arrive, at which case he's probably victim of a young player numbers game. The big question-- which dominates this board out of all proportion to his ability, is Buck. Look for a trade in the off-season-- for whatever reason, the entire organization has soured on the guy and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

So the 13/14 players next year would be:

Suzuki-Powell/Ellis-Pennington-Everidge-Wallace-(Crosby/Kennedy 1 of them, not both, in a 1 year deal)/Hairston-Davis-Sweeney-Cust-Cunningham-- with the final player either a back-up middle infield type like Petit or a new bat (Carter, for example) or Daric Barton, if he can ever show that he can hit.

and by 2011

Donaldson-Powell/Carter-Cardenas-Green and/or Weeks-Wallace-Pennington/Hairston-Davis-Sweeney-Doolittle. Ellis might remain as a utility player/defensive replacement. Weeks might be shifted to the outfield if Wallace stays at 3B and Cardenas moves back to 2B. I predict they bring in one more bat for the OF by then.

I don't see much of a future for Cunningham-Buck-Barton as well as the obvious candidates like Crosby, Cust and Kennedy. And I forsee Donaldson beating Suzuki out by 2011 and the latter being traded.

Comment 56 comments  |  4 recs  | 

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No way Wallace is listed at 3B for next spring; This is the Oakland A's!!!!

Eric Chavez is always going to be penciled in at 3B in the spring as long as Beane is running things…

:)

"What a joke." ~ Booby Crosby

by MMunoz33 on Aug 10, 2009 8:33 AM PDT reply actions   1 recs

tear

S&BP > Mile High Mules

by 0akFoSho on Aug 10, 2009 7:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

whimper

S&BP > Mile High Mules

by 0akFoSho on Aug 10, 2009 7:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

tear from the eye?

or tear of the shoulder muscle?

plz clarify.

by LoneStranger on Aug 11, 2009 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

In the interest of him being able to touch his toes in his middle years, he should hang up his hat.

Can I just say this game delay would REALLY blow w/ out AN. by brian.only on Aug 10, 2009 6:14 PM PDT

Ha ha -- you misspelled "2009 season" by Nico on Aug 10, 2009 6:15 PM PDT

by brian.only on Aug 13, 2009 12:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

The only thing I take qualms with here is
Doolittle is fast approaching.

Dude has sat out almost the entire season. He should be in Triple A next season for at least half the season.

by jeffro on Aug 10, 2009 9:33 AM PDT reply actions  

point taken

my comment probably reflects my skepticism about Buck and Cunningham

by jasonthea on Aug 10, 2009 10:01 AM PDT up reply actions  

I will be disappointed if Crosby is even on the team next year.

I see no reason to even offer him a contract.

In 2008 I was watching a team that was rebuilding. In 2009 I feel like I'm watching a team that just sucks.

by UncleLeo on Aug 10, 2009 6:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

well if you assume Kennedy won't resign

Do you have anyone else in mind to play a utility infield role? He’d do it better than anyone else in the organizationj right now.

by jasonthea on Aug 10, 2009 6:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

+1

Let alone any back-up IF FA, though I wouldn’t mind Petit at all.

http://www.myspace.com/ryanmac10

by RyanFromBonas on Aug 10, 2009 7:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Define "utility infield role".

I define it as 2B/SS/3B, or at least two of the three. 1B doesn’t really count and we have several at least serviceable options there already. I don’t see Crosby as being versatile enough to handle a utility infield role competently. In this case I really would rather take a chance on some schlepp from Kane County.

Ok, not serious on the schlepp, but I would be willing to try someone else.

In 2008 I was watching a team that was rebuilding. In 2009 I feel like I'm watching a team that just sucks.

by UncleLeo on Aug 10, 2009 7:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

Excuse me

But really, just because Crosby was a disappointment doesn’t mean he can be replaced by a schlepp from Kane County.

As a starter, Crosby was an adequate fielder and an inadequate hitter. As a sub off the bench, he’s learned his positions well. And now is a very good 1B, and an adequate 3B. Hasn’t played much 2B in a while.

But as a back-up, he can play all the positions, and is especially competent at short and third, and while he doesn’t hit for average, he does have some pop in his bat.

That said, he’ll never accept that role with the A’s, and I’d think that teams like the Mets would be more to his liking…new league, new town, new team.

The problem with Kennedy as the infield sub is that he can’t play shortstop, and I’ve seen nothing to indicate Petit is ready to fill in at all positions. After a couple of games earlier this year, he fell apart.

by richwol1 on Aug 12, 2009 5:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

Dude...

…did you read my entire post? Did you miss the last sentence where I clearly said I wasn’t literal about the “schlepp from Kane County” part?

In 2008 I was watching a team that was rebuilding. In 2009 I feel like I'm watching a team that just sucks.

by UncleLeo on Aug 13, 2009 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

BoCro in NY?

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAHA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA…

PREPAREDNESS_Because those goddamn zombies aren’t going to kill themselves

by adragon on Aug 13, 2009 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

Most agree with

  As for Buck you are right they probably trade him next year so he can turn into Andre Either II for another team. Third they will go out of the organization for. Could it be Beltre on a 1 year deal for $5 million? Or could Cabrera come back at ss next year on a 1 year deal? If I am Beane I would trade Cust while he is still cheap and can bribng back players and let Wallace/Everidge fght out for DH. By the way the a’s are ctrying out Carter in OF these days. Maybe they are already beginning to see the log jam at first.

by Arcman on Aug 10, 2009 10:03 AM PDT reply actions  

Here is where I stand

- Brett Wallace will get the first half of next season to prove he can capably play third base at least through his first couple youthful years. If he succeed’s then great! we’ve got third base rapped up for at least the next 2-3 years (basically until his range becomes even more unlimited). However, if he doesn’t stick; hopefully Cardenas will have proven enough at AAA with his bat that the A’s feel comfortable bringing him up in the second half. In conjunction with a Cardenas to third call-up; they will move Donaldson to 3b in AAA so they have yet another back up plan in case it is determined that cardenas does not provide the kind of power and/or overall bat to justify sticking him at third. I am also fairly confident that the team will resign Kennedy as a fall-back option/super utility player in case everything goes to shit.

Also, Corey Brown should be considered in the conversation since you are including other players like Weeks and Donaldson who have similar ETA’s to the big leagues. Even ruling out players like Peterson and Spencer is not a given though I doubt they break through next year, if at all.

- Lastly, don’t completely rule out Wimberely as a shortstop option in the near future. If Pennington can continue to hit the way he has been- his above-average defense means that he is a more than passable stopgap until Green arrives (that is, if he signs). However, Wimberely seems as though he could potentially provide a Rajai Davis like skill set at the SS position- that is the ability to get on base enough through a combination of hitting and drawing walks- then use blazing speed to make plays and put pressure on the other team. If he can play average D at SS that is something that could be very valuable for this team.

by MAC Attack on Aug 10, 2009 10:29 AM PDT reply actions  

they won't move Donaldson to 3B

Donaldson is average at best offensively for a 3B. He is above average offensively for a Catcher. Being at Catcher gives him a LOT more value as a prospect than at 3B.

Don't believe in yourself.
Believe in Me who believes in You.

by Zonis on Aug 10, 2009 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

How do you feel about Cardenas at 3B?

This is a legit question, I don’t know where you stand. But I don’t think Cardenas would represent a huge offensive upgrade over Donaldson at 3B.

by NateHST on Aug 10, 2009 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

Zonis, but if it is determined that Donaldson is not going to hold up defensively at C....

Which is a realistic possibility. His most likely destination would be a move to 3B. Am I wrong about that? I am merely stating that if our first two options- those being Wallace and Cardenas- don’t work out, then he is a viable 3rd option.

I am interested in seeing Donaldson’s ceiling in terms of power. He is hitting an insane amount of doubles and, to my knowledge, the stadium Midland plays at suppressses HR’s while allowing players to hit tons of double’s. If he is a 15-20 home run guy- I am not saying he is, but I wouldn’t be suprised- and puts up a .370 to .380 OBP that’s at the very least a guy who has a chance to be our starting third basemen.

by MAC Attack on Aug 10, 2009 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

I would be supprised if he put up a .380 OBP in the majors

Don't believe in yourself.
Believe in Me who believes in You.

by Zonis on Aug 12, 2009 7:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

Career or vs. 2009 AL Pitching?

A-Rod and Youks for comparison. Thanks.

still Swish Fan #1.

by ChrisCEIT on Aug 12, 2009 10:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

sorry

did not mean to cross out that middle paragraph. But basically it says Corey Brown should be considered in the outfield mix if you are also considering players like weeks and donaldson, who have similar ETA’s, as in the mix at other positions.

by MAC Attack on Aug 10, 2009 10:33 AM PDT reply actions  

Kennedy will not report to spring training with the A's

He’s looking for another multiple year deal to play 2b for starting 2b money. There is no way the A’s offer him that. He will file for free agency and wait. If he doesn’t get picked up by March, then maybe he goes to the A’s.

by Future Ed on Aug 10, 2009 11:07 AM PDT reply actions  

He really ought to get one, too.

Who doesn’t want a .290 hitting second baseman with double-digit homers and steals?

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Aug 10, 2009 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

The A's, apparently.

In 2008 I was watching a team that was rebuilding. In 2009 I feel like I'm watching a team that just sucks.

by UncleLeo on Aug 10, 2009 6:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

Don't count your chickens before they hatch.

"True fact: In a global thermonuclear war, the only human who would survive would be David Eckstein" -PT

by travdog6 on Aug 10, 2009 12:17 PM PDT reply actions  

These things have a way of working themselfs outs.

Dude to injury or flame outs. And we all know Billy likes to wheel and deal.

by Syphon on Aug 10, 2009 12:36 PM PDT reply actions  

Billy will wait

  after what happened to free agents last year I would bet he will wait until March before going after free agents.

by Arcman on Aug 10, 2009 1:25 PM PDT reply actions  

not true

He’s started 2 of the last 5 games. Obviously with both Patterson and Cardenas there they have a squeeze at 2B and don’t want to send either down or put them on the pine. So Cardenas is also playing at 3B. They can easily put Wallace into some intensive defensive training at 3B over the off-season or in ST.

by jasonthea on Aug 10, 2009 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

I hope they're not giving up on him yet.

Do they even have a warm body that can play first right now, with Everidge up in Oakland and Barton on the DL?

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Aug 10, 2009 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

I wouldn't jump to conclusions too early

He’s played 11 games at 3B, 4 at 1B, and 1 at DH since joining the A’s. I don’t know why your so pessimistic about the A’s plans for Wallace.

by OkayJay81 on Aug 10, 2009 6:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't think Wallace will play third in the future

Most likely he’ll be a 1st baseman or a DH, Carter will either play RF or 1b, Cardenas will probably be either SS Or 3b, and then Weeks will play 2b.

by duballers23 on Aug 10, 2009 3:54 PM PDT reply actions  

2011 A's positional starters (My guess)

C – Suzuki
1B – Wallace
2B – Weeks
SS – Pennington/Green
3B – Cardenas/Chavez
LF – Doolittle
CF – Davis/Sweeney
RF – Carter
DH – Chavez/Everidge/Cust/Hairston

by duballers23 on Aug 10, 2009 4:09 PM PDT reply actions  

who is this Chavez guy??

I mean seriously, the only real question is his retirement date

by jasonthea on Aug 10, 2009 4:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

Chavez has a...

…$12.5M club option for 2011 with a $3M buyout. He better have his financial adviser plan on that $3M.

In 2008 I was watching a team that was rebuilding. In 2009 I feel like I'm watching a team that just sucks.

by UncleLeo on Aug 10, 2009 6:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

Wonder if we can convince him to be an infield coach for another million or two.

I would love to have a gold glover teaching these new kids a trick or two.

by LoneStranger on Aug 11, 2009 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

Just because he's good doesn't mean he can teach...

…though I don’t know him well enough to say for sure either way. If he is a good teacher, I would be more than willing to have him in that role. I think that’d be great.

In 2008 I was watching a team that was rebuilding. In 2009 I feel like I'm watching a team that just sucks.

by UncleLeo on Aug 13, 2009 11:33 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think that's a fairly good assessment,.....

though I don’t know why youd take doolittle over hairston….i mean, isn’t doolittle’s upside hairston?

I’d probably also have Tommy at 1st and Wallace DHing, but now I’m just being picky.

BTW I don’t think
a.) cust or Chavvy are still here in 2011 (though Chavvy may be a coach with us – hitting coach Giambi and 3b coach Chavez – how dope would that be??)

b.) Green is ready yet by 2011, at least the beginning of it

We have a “good problem” on our hands with both Donaldson and Powell backing up Suzuki. We can have Donaldson replace “Chavez” on your list, and that would work. Or we could do the same iwth Powell at 1B/C/DH. But i don’t think we keep both.

by thashyt on Aug 10, 2009 5:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

The A's can do a lot better with 12.5MM than a back-up 3B and occasional DH

especially if that guy is Chavez. Chavez wouldn’t make a good DH this year at 11MM. Come 2011, I’d rather have any of the guys you named, as well as Barton any possibly Powell, all of whom combine to make somewhere in the neighborhood of Chavez’s 12.5MM.

http://www.myspace.com/ryanmac10

by RyanFromBonas on Aug 10, 2009 7:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

With that Lineup...

and our pitching looking like…

SP
1. Trevor Cahill
2. Brett Anderson
3. Gio Gonzalez
4. Viz Mazzaro / James Simmons / Josh Outman
Dallas Braden/Duke (if not traded by then, Beane trades graduates)

RP
Bailey, Rodriguez, Ziegler, Devine

We are going to seriously see some SOCCER SCORES

by MathJock on Aug 11, 2009 9:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

A's want Carter to be the RF

Hopefully he can, and I don’t mean the way Cust mans the position.

If he can play a passable RF his stock rises huge as it would allow another power bat in Wallace to man 1st. Suddenly power from 3rd isnt as important.

by Bud Light on Aug 10, 2009 9:28 PM PDT reply actions  

Hopefully, some of them will go to Oakland.

Not many have in the past.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Aug 11, 2009 11:32 AM PDT reply actions  

Not many have?

What d’ya mean?

These specific guys or prospects in general?

by jeffro on Aug 11, 2009 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

General comment about successfully developing position players.

I’m not really concerned about our pipeline given our hit rate.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Aug 11, 2009 3:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

2012 Athletics

C1 Kurt Suzuki
1B Brett Wallace
2B Jemile Weeks
3B Adrian Cardenas
SS Dusty Coleman
LF Grant Desme
RF Sean Doolittle
CF Corey Brown
DH Chris Carter

Don't believe in yourself.
Believe in Me who believes in You.

by Zonis on Aug 12, 2009 7:42 AM PDT reply actions  

Coleman over Grant Green?

Also, I personally don’t see Doolittle ever doing enough to be a starter in the majors. I hope I’m wrong, though. I personally think Cunningham would be a more likely than him.

by rageon on Aug 12, 2009 8:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

Change in philosophy

I think we are seeing a change in strategy in regards to how the team will look in 2010 and 2011. Defense and speed, as opposed to PED’s and bulk is the building plan. As MAC Attack stated, I think Corey Brown needs to be included in the mix for an outfield spot in the future. I’ve seen him many times, and though his stats aren’t eye-popping; he may be a diamond in the rough.

I’m not particularly fond of Chris Carter. He is absolutely brutal around the bag at 1B, and his all-or-nothing swing has many holes. I think ML pitchers could easily exploit his weaknesses. He has some work to do before he comes up. I hope Wallace can make it up to the club by 2011 and not be a Sean Burroughs. I think his power will develop. As for his defense, he looks a lot better than I expected.

I am liking Pennington more-and-more. He’s got a great arm, and though his range is sub-par, a couple years of experience will help his placement. I don’t know if any of you saw Dick Green when he first came up, but he had very limited range. Once he learned how to set himself in the infield,—depending upon the batter, pitch, situation; he became a plus defender. I am hoping the chance the A’s are giving Pennington now will pay off in the long run.

The core of the pitching staff is amazing. I can’t remember a time when we had this kind of depth and youth. They are getting great experience this year, and I think they will mature as a group by 2011.

by Flamethrower on Aug 12, 2009 8:30 AM PDT reply actions  

"I don't know if any of you saw Dick Green when he first came up"

You mean with the K.C. Athletics? I’m guessing not many, but this board does occasionally surprise me.

by Glorious Mundy on Aug 12, 2009 8:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

Dick Green

With the KC A’s? Yeah. Wait, no.

still Swish Fan #1.

by ChrisCEIT on Aug 12, 2009 11:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

These predictions are super-interesting, esp. the 2012

I mean, it’s not that far off. Is it really true that even a guy like Sweeney who is a few years away from full potential (if the raging post-PED Sweeney argument is at least part right) I should just consider – well – gone? Whatever happened to “cornerstone” players, “franchise” players. Is that anti-moneyball or something? The quotes I’ve seen posted from Beane suggest he’s not a diehard of his own style (as Karl Marx said, correctly, that he was not a Marxist).

And why do folks think the pitches will stay around as the position players disappear so rapidly (with possible exception of Suzuki)?

Or is it just that all the existing players – well – suck, and that’s why they won’t be around? And that this next crop, 2011-2012, will be the new franchise?

by paris7 on Aug 16, 2009 6:20 PM PDT reply actions  

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