The Stats Don't Lie: It Is Time For Bob Geren To Go
I hardly ever have time to write anymore, but I have to point out a few things about Bob Geren. Some Evidence, if you will.
Here are some facts:
Bob Geren took over the reigns of a team that went to the ALCS in 2006
The A's hired him over, Tre Hillman, Ron Washington and Don Wakamatsu (They interviewed those other three) ((Interviewed...Wink...Wink))
Tre Hillman's winnng percentage in Kansas City is better than Geren's. (.451) Did I mention he is coaching the KANSAS CITY ROYALS!!!!
Wakamatsu has had more injury issues than anyone this year and has his team at 43-41.
Ron Washington (We still love you Ron) took over a 3rd place team in 2007 and has his team in first place, compiling a .497 winning percentage over three years.
Bob Geren (.458) has the worst winning percentage of any manager in Oakland History that has managed over 400 games.
In fact ONLY Billy Martin (RIP), who completely overachieved with his rag tag group of players, managed more than 400 games in Oakland and didn't post, at least, a .500 record. (.497)
Did I mention that they sent Tony DeFrancesco, proven Minor League Manager, back to Sacramento and promoted Ty Waller to Bench Coach. We should call Waller Aflac...He is Bob Geren's un-employment insurance.
Ken Macha, Terry Francona, Bob Geren, Don Wakamatsu, Ty Waller. One of these is not like the other. Heck, that list of bench coaches have coached circles around Geren. And, yes, that goes for ( The Old Cud Chewer) Ken Macha too.
So, what gives? Can it be that Billy doesn't want to fire his buddy? Can it be that the organization is actually enamoured with this man?
I am frustrated and did this research not knowing what I'd find. I didn't skew these numbers in any way. They are what they are.
Geren may not be the worst manager that we've had in 42 years, but he is surely not fitting of keeping around after the 400 game mark.
7 recs |
254 comments
Comments
saint is A’s baseball. I miss your posts!
Letting Wash walk was one of several head scratchers…
"We lose to Stanford in many sports, but if you want to make a Cal team quit, bring a weapon."
--Coach Clark
by carp on Jul 9, 2009 12:46 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Wow, that's pretty heavy:
Thanks though.
I miss Wash, and I don’t even hate the Rangers anymore.
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 9, 2009 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I miss this guy

In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson
by ZacharyCF on Jul 9, 2009 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
+ infinity
at least he’d still make this brand of A’s baseball interesting to listen to.
by jakebmill on Jul 9, 2009 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, but it would be more like listening to the Bill King show,
with his guests, the Oakland A’s…
"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jul 9, 2009 5:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
word.
"We lose to Stanford in many sports, but if you want to make a Cal team quit, bring a weapon."
--Coach Clark
by carp on Jul 9, 2009 10:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I want a shirt of that
King!
Green and Gold Lantern Corps
by oaklandSMASH on Jul 10, 2009 6:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your link
didn’t work. FYI
You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}
by micdog2001 on Jul 9, 2009 12:47 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks...Fixed it
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 9, 2009 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Add this to the discussion too
since Geren was the one who initiated this negative change.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/jack-custs-new-approach-at-the-plate/#comments
"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden
Free Travis Buck.
by Blicks on Jul 9, 2009 1:01 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
What's next?
Did Geren also tell Giambi to lose his bat speed or trick Cabrera into becoming a poor fielder. Maybe he also broke Chavez’ back and convinced Sweeney not to hit for power.
Blame it all on Geren!!
by DiegoAsFan on Jul 9, 2009 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is not all his fault:
Obviously, he doesn’t swing the bats, field the balls or make the pitches. He does settle for mediocrity though.
Holliday doesn’t try on defense and I cannot even count the number of times that (Fill in any players name) hasn’t run out a fly or ground ball.
If Holliday doesn’t want to hustle…Bench him…That sends a message to the team and to Holliday.
I can go on and on about the things within the game that he stinks out, but the purpose of this piece is to just point out raw data.
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 9, 2009 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not blaming Geren on any of that.
The only player I’m even partially blaming Geren on sucking is Cust, because that plate approach change was Geren-motivated. And, he’s 30 and was a very productive hitter in one of the biggest pitchers’ parks in MLB. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.
We all knew Giambi was going to decline and not be a productive player, and Cabrera’s the type of player who doesn’t age well. All of that has NOTHING to do with Geren. I agree with that.
"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden
Free Travis Buck.
by Blicks on Jul 9, 2009 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know
Every thing I’ve ever read on the subject said that Cust came up to the hitting coach and said he wanted to work on making better contact. Unless you’ve heard something different I don’t see how this is Geren’s fault. Unless your blaming Geren for not stepping in and telling Cust he’s too old to try to improve his game and should just relax and eat cheetos in the off-season.
by DiegoAsFan on Jul 9, 2009 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cust needs to watch the ball all the way to the bat:
If you ask me.
It is like he decides to swing in a zone and then lets it rip.
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 9, 2009 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't ever hearing/reading
anything about how Cust was the one who wanted the change. Everything I’ve read was Geren saying that he wished Cust made more contact in meaningful situations and then hearing that Skaalen and Geren were going to work with Cust in ST to cut down on the K’s.
"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin
by Helloooo 1st on Jul 9, 2009 7:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ever remember*
"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin
by Helloooo 1st on Jul 9, 2009 7:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Making better contact
does not =
swing at worse pitches.
"if gio would of ptched,he would of pitched shoot outs." - MR.OAKLAND
"Anyone who calls themselves the Angels Angels should have to start over and ride the short bus." -timmeh from McCovey Chronicles
by Cheezombie on Jul 10, 2009 7:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You make some good points but the Manager's job is to win
Three teams under his direction have not.
At a certain point a change needs to be made as I would doubt that the team has any faith in him as a leader.
by Yellowhorse on Jul 10, 2009 7:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Geren is terrible
I wouldn’t look at our win-loss record — I doubt a better manager would have fared much better — but the guy is in over his head. It doesn’t take incredible strategic acumen to manage an AL ballclub, but his bullpen maneuvering late in games that matter is mind-numbingly bad, especially contrasted with Howe and Macha, who got the most out of the bullpen arms they had. His habit of using Crosby and others as late inning defensive replacements are mind-numbing. I wish Billy were as much of a micromanager as his Moneyball reputation would suggest, because Geren would not be able to get away with his imbecilic moves.
by swatnick on Jul 9, 2009 1:06 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Protip
It’s the players. Too many of them suck.
As to your link, it’s also true that Art Howe has the worst winning percentage of any A’s manager in the ‘90s. Or that Connie Mack has the worst winning percentage of any A’s manager of the first half of the 20th century.
Instructive note: Hank Bauer, who was worse than Geren with the A’s in more than 400 games, led the Orioles to a WS championship. Lucky for him he learned how to manage between 1962 and 1964.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Jul 9, 2009 1:07 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
In wouldn't say that:
Kennedy
Cabrera
Hairston
Holliday
Cust
Giambi/Garciaparra
Suzuki
Sweeney
Ellis
That is a good line-up. They just aren’t performing for Geren
I love the bullpen too and the starting pitching is pretty good, not fantastic. Bottom line, these guys aren’t playing for this guy. In fact, none of the groups of players that he’s had have played for him.
Look at Colorado. Once Hurdle was out, they are on fire. They are playing for Tracy.
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 9, 2009 1:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cabrera, Giambi, and Nomar are absolutely awful
Like, well below replacement level awful.
Hairston’s only been around for a week, Ellis has missed a lot of time as well, and Cust has struggled thanks to his new plate approach, which was the idea of..Bob Geren.
Sweeney should not be playing against LHP, as I seriously don’t think he learns to hit LHP after he has not been able to do it in the minors and still can’t in MLB.
I think Geren needs to be canned, yes, but you can’t say that that’s a good lineup either offensively or defensively, and you can’t say that the A’s aren’t putting the best team they can on the field.
There are guys in Sacto who will very likely be superior to some of the guys currently on the team.
And, either way, the A’s aren’t contending and need to see what some of the guys mashing in AAA can do at a MLB level.
"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden
Free Travis Buck.
by Blicks on Jul 9, 2009 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would not call Cabrera Awful and I have Giambi and Nomar sharing a space:
Raj should play against lefties and Sweeney against righties. Another reason Geren is terrible.
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 9, 2009 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would
Negative WAR, negative WPA, negative UZR. He has flat out sucked this year.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Jul 9, 2009 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am just thinking about his hitting over the past month or so:
He does seem, like Holliday, to NOT be playing all out on defense. And can you really blame him when he was already being shopped to the Sox two months ago?
These rentals are playing like rentalson defense…and it is the managers fault for allowing it to continue.
Cabrera looked fantastic with the glove early in the season. imo
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 9, 2009 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You mean that wonderful hot streak where...
he’s almost league average?
And yes, shame on Geren for not fielding all those ground balls for him.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Jul 9, 2009 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is not my definition of "Sucks"
Below Average is not “Sucks”. In fact I find him, pretty average.
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 9, 2009 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right...
pretty average when he’s hot. Even with that “hot” month his season line is still horrible.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Jul 9, 2009 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
HItting .297 with 6 2B and 2HRs for a SS
is not “Sucks” over a 28 game period.
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 9, 2009 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you intentionally talking past me?
I explicitly defined it as “almost league average.” The fact that that’s his “hot” streak, and he’s been so bad the rest of the season, is what makes him suck.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Jul 9, 2009 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The quotation marks are key there.
His OBP for that streak is .307. 2 walks over 28 games. Wow Ocab, just wow.
"True fact: In a global thermonuclear war, the only human who would survive would be David Eckstein" -PT
by travdog6 on Jul 9, 2009 3:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, but it's a small sample of his actual ability at this point.
It’s fine if you don’t think he sucks, but, he’s has the second lowest amount of batting runs above replacement among eligible SS in the entire league, and has the worst fielding runs saved above average in the entire league. Top that off with the fact that he has the overall worse WAR among league SS, and yeah, he kinda sucks.
by MrMoneyBaller on Jul 9, 2009 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow:
Didn’t know that about his fielding!!! That does suck.
Does the fact that he has only been driven in one time in month effect his batting runs above replacement? I don’t know, that is why I’m asking.
He has also played in 83 games…That has to be the most in the League by far.
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 9, 2009 4:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
RBIs / runs are always (to my knowledge) excluded from advanced hitting stats.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Jul 9, 2009 4:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is just that the stat says:
batting runs above replacement
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 9, 2009 4:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's run as in run generated
As in, runs that score because of your offensive output. Think of it less as a reflection of RBIs and more a reflection of a hitters ability to hit the ball to a point where an average base runner would be driven in.
by MrMoneyBaller on Jul 9, 2009 4:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So, it is a batting stat:
It has nothing to do with scoring runs or stealing bases?
I can’t find that anywhere. But, I’ll take your word for it.
And it is very vague.
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 9, 2009 4:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's a good start
It shows that BRAR is based upon EQA.
Raw EqA is (H + TB + 1.5*(BB + HBP + SB) + SH + SF) divided by (AB + BB + HBP + SH + SF + CS + SB).
There’s some more math, but those are the inputs.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Jul 9, 2009 4:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So SB% is a factor?
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 9, 2009 4:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes.
It is. But Cabrera isn’t doing that either.
by MrMoneyBaller on Jul 9, 2009 5:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
Stealing successfully increases the odds your team will score. Getting caught decreases them.
The metric is an attempt to count the fractions of runs a player’s performance adds to the team (for example, a leadoff single makes the team more likely to score in an inning. Whether or not the hitter then scores is largely out of his hands)
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Jul 9, 2009 5:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How about going first to third:
And does the performance of the batters following the hitter effect this rule? I’d think they would.
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 10, 2009 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Non-SB baserunning is a weakness of EQA (but difficult to measure)
I don’t understand what you’re asking.
EQA does not care about who is hitting afterwards, since that is out of the current hitter’s control.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Jul 10, 2009 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But does effect his ability to score
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 10, 2009 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, that doesn't factor
It’s all a reflection of his output with the bat. And to say that’s horrific this year is putting it lightly.
Playing in more games doesn’t have an effect on that either, as that is controlled for with a set amount of games played for each player. Tejada, Scutaro, and Theriot are all players who have played in just about the same amount of games and have looked Hall of Fame worthy in comparison.
by MrMoneyBaller on Jul 9, 2009 4:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is true:
I can only hope that he continues his non suckiness. That which he has displayed over the last month, offensively.
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 9, 2009 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And why did you have to mention Scutaro?
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 9, 2009 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why do you assume a rental player plays less hard?
That’s counter-intuitive to me.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
by iglew on Jul 9, 2009 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My thinking is that risking an injury in the field:
Will cost them money next year.
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 9, 2009 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They still try to hit, but don't want to go all out in the field:
Where most injuries happen.
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 9, 2009 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Playing like shit will cost them more money than being hurt.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
by mikev on Jul 9, 2009 4:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree:
And someone needs to point that out to Mr. Holliday.
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 9, 2009 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The again:
Ripping an ACL would cost more than just laying up on fly balls and not playing all-out.
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 9, 2009 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would think that their agents would get on the horn and tell them to play harder.
Cause it’s money in their pockets too.
by LoneStranger on Jul 9, 2009 4:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or, they can be saying:
Just don’t get hurt, we’ll work on getting you traded to a contender so that you can showcase your self. Once again, JUST DON’T GET HURT.
It could be either/or
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 9, 2009 4:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you have a point as relates to, say, Holliday diving for balls
Beyond that, though, I disagree. I certainly disagree that Cabrera tanking defensively would be rational.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Jul 9, 2009 4:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why?
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 9, 2009 4:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because diving for a ball is a risk that is not necessarily necessary (see, Ichiro)
Any negative impact refusing to has is much harder to measure than other types of not playing hard.
Cabrera’s value has always been in his glove. If he’s ignoring his one asset, he’s worthless (indeed, his value right now is negative) whether he’s healthy or not.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Jul 9, 2009 4:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree:
That is true.
I can still see him resting on his past and not wanting to get hurt, BUT, you are 100% right. His best quality is/was his glove.
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 9, 2009 4:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This logic
defies a good amount of research that says players player better than expected in their contract years (see “Baseball Between the Numbers”). This would apply to rental players as well.
by swatnick on Jul 9, 2009 5:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My stipulation was in OAKLAND:
Bauer did not manage 400 games in Oakland.
Over 50 years it is difficult for anyone to have a great winning percentage, let alone Connie Mack. (I really feel like responding to this absurd stretch u=is useless, but I’ll humor you)
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 9, 2009 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know you said oakland
My point is that you’re artificially limiting your sample to manipulate out a point.
As to Bauer, the point is he “sucked” in 1962 but was great in 1964-66. Too bad he didn’t write a book about how to manage or something…
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Jul 9, 2009 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not limiting it:
42 years is 42 years…In Oakland
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 9, 2009 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok
You. Placed. Meaningless. Limitations. On. The. Sample. Why? To make a list where Geren is worst.
I’m not denying he’s the worst on your list, just pointing out that list isn’t helpful.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Jul 9, 2009 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Helpful in what?
Determining that he has the worst winning percentage of any manager in “Oakland” History that has managed to lose at a .553 percent rate?
A full .053 percentage points below the next closest Oakland Manager?
And have you seen the roster that Bauer managed with Kansas City,
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 9, 2009 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"That has managed over .400 games:
I have only been alive since 1972, so I can only recall from Billy Martin on as far as managers go.
Maybe I should go all the way out to the deadball era…LMAO!!!
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 9, 2009 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Out of 29 managers on the list, Geren is #12 sorted by winning percentage.
You added two criteria: Oakland and 400 games that make him #7 of 7. In other words, you manipulated the list to show what you wanted.
Also, your math is wrong. Billy was .497, Geren is .458 = .039 different.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Jul 9, 2009 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was going by memory:
Anyway, sort the data however you want. See my point or don’t. It is NO skin off my nose.
400 games, to me, is a bench mark. 2 and a half seasons. Two and a half seasons of .458 ball from a team that went to the ALCS in 2006 would get most managers fired.
Want to look that one up?
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 9, 2009 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Want to look that one up?
Sorry my facts are getting in your way…
The team that went to the ALCS in 2006 hasn’t taken the field since. That is not Geren’s fault.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Jul 9, 2009 2:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hahaha...Right!!!
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 9, 2009 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The difference between a .458 WP and .497 is:
6 games a year or roughly 74 wins a year for Geren and 80 for Billy.
6 WINS!!! That is a pretty large margin.
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 9, 2009 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right.
Billy Martin’s teams were better than Geren’s.
And?
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Jul 9, 2009 3:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, That 1980 Line-up Was A Powerhouse:
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 9, 2009 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Umm...
6 of the 9 1980 guys had >100 OPS+ (i.e. were above league average as measured by OPS). This team has 3 of 9.
The best 2009 hitter (Holliday or Kennedy) would rank 6th on the 1980 team.
3 of the 5 1980 pitchers had >100 ERA+ (i.e. were above league average as measured by ERA). This team has 3 of 6. The worst SP on the 1980 team (McCatty) is better than 3 of our SP (Cahill, Anderson, and Eveland).
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Jul 9, 2009 4:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In summary
the 1980 team was significantly better.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Jul 9, 2009 4:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
On paper:
They sure did play for their manager though. Billy brought the best out of that team. Geren is getting the worst out of this team.
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 9, 2009 4:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok.
I think we’ve reached the point where I get off.
That team had a lot more good players and its best players were better than our best players. If you rank the 18 hitters by OPS+ it looks like:
THEN
THEN
THEN
THEN
THEN
now
now
THEN
now
now
now
now
THEN
now
now
THEN
now
THEN
I think that’s as clear as I can make it.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Jul 9, 2009 4:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it is silly that we are arguing:
In a way, about who was a better manager, Billy Martin or Bob Geren.
Like if you gave Geren the same team he would have gotten the same results.
And the then and nows equalled 9 to 9
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 9, 2009 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
a Martin vs Geren argument, eh?
(sticks fingers in ears and starts chanting)
Billymartinbillymartinbillymartinbillymartinbillymartin…
"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jul 9, 2009 5:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not saying Geren is a better manager
I’m just saying Martin had a much better team.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Jul 9, 2009 5:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not in 1980-81, he didn't
His infield was Wayne Gross, Mickey Klutts, Chicken Stanley, Rob Picciolo, Keith Drumright, Shooty Babbit, Dave Revering, and Kelvin Moore, and his closer was Dave Beard, the rest of his bullpen even worse.
I’d actually take this infield over that one, and I’d sure take this bullpen! I’d take his OF, though, fo’ shizzle.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 9, 2009 5:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gross and Revering hit better than anyone on this team.
We just did the comparison upthread. I don’t think there’s any serious argument about who is better (but then you aren’t making one, you’re just listing names).
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Jul 9, 2009 6:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Billy Martin...
..turned teams around wherever he went. It wasn’t just the A’s. It was EVERY team he managed when he was fresh. He burned out, began drinking, lost control, got fired each time, but that’s not the point really.
The point is that this one manager actually did change the game whenever he came in, which means the game CAN be changed with someone who knows how to do it.
I think virtually ANY new manager at this point would turn the team around in a positive way for the rest of the season. Blame Geren or not. He needs to be replaced, and I think he will be.
by richwol1 on Jul 9, 2009 8:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with everything but the last part,
but hope you’re right about all of it.
What one has to remember about Martin is that he was truly unique. He is not a good barometer for what is usually possible; just a very unusual and interesting guy.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 9, 2009 8:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Mike Scioscia
is the closest thing we have to a Billy Martin, and quite frankly, I think Scioscia is a better manager, because he doesn’t make so many enemies amongst the players, and he doesn’t burn pitchers’ arms out like Martin did.
However, if Martin were managing today, I’m sure his use of starters and relievers would have adapted with the times, and he’d probably be no worse than Dusty Baker or Bruce Bochy in that respect…
"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jul 10, 2009 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Scioscia is the best manager in baseball.
I still haven’t figured out if AN hates him because they disagree with me or because they agree.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
by iglew on Jul 10, 2009 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Facts don't lie, but the people who present them can.
1) You forgot that the A’s have been hit hard by the injury bug in the past few years.
2) Kansas City is only one game ahead of Oakland, hardly something that backs up your point.
3) Texas’ turnaround is more than just Ron Washington.
4) ((Interviewed…Wink…Wink)) is hardly a fact.
by LoneStranger on Jul 9, 2009 1:19 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Response:
1) You forgot that the A’s have been hit hard by the injury bug in the past few years. (Seattle is missing their entire infield)
2) Kansas City is only one game ahead of Oakland, hardly something that backs up your point. (KANSAS CITY was my point)
3) Texas’ turnaround is more than just Ron Washington. (Of course, but he is a winner)
4) ((Interviewed…Wink…Wink)) is hardly a fact. (They interviewed them. The wink wink was my insinuation that Geren had the job and the interviews were merely a formality)
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 9, 2009 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You mean "everyone's favorite sleeper pick"?
How embarrassing that we’re playing at their level.
Until you address my Hank Bauer point, I feel no need to worry about your Ron Washington assertion.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Jul 9, 2009 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, Below their's
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 9, 2009 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You missed the point.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Jul 9, 2009 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, I didn't:
I caught your “sars” “Chasm”
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 9, 2009 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gotta agree here with saint
I’m glad you decided to make this post after we talked earlier this morning. Been too long since you have been around my friend.
My take on it….The A’s looked like they were putting together a team that could be competitive. At times they have been competitive while most of the time they find ways to beat themselves, and, at the same time seem to have a moron for a manager. Some guys have become old, some guys guys have ben hurt, some having down years, some just were never very god in the first place.
But the focus of this post was on the manager and Bob Geren has indeed failed as a leader and strategically speaking, embarassed himself and the team by his tired ass approach. I don’t need stats to back this up: Bob Geren has no business being the manger of this or any other MLB team. Period! Go A’s!
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
by mrod on Jul 9, 2009 6:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree.
He could Manage the California slegnA
I'll have a sandwich and a draft(sic). - Bill King (RIP)
by BleedGreen on Jul 9, 2009 7:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Minor quibble...
Please leave the politics out of it.
“If Ty Waller isn’t to Bob Geren as Cheney was to Bush”
I look forward to reading this blog without partisan (or perceived as partisan) comments one way or the other.
by plrraz on Jul 9, 2009 1:25 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
It was a joke:
It was an ongoing joke that Cheney was….well, you get my point.
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 9, 2009 1:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Either way its just a way of creating unwanted wank and stupidity.
"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden
Free Travis Buck.
by Blicks on Jul 9, 2009 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
True: It's Gone
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 9, 2009 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Please don't mention the Raiders here.
Oh wait, never mind.
I'm here to talk about the past.
by 67MARQUEZ on Jul 9, 2009 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Create unwanted Wank?
Unwanted Wank would mean unwanted masturbation
Definition is
wank Taboo slang
Verb
(of a man) to masturbate
Noun
an instance of masturbating [origin unknown]
by Trainman on Jul 9, 2009 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Quality comment...
no name calling…
useful information…
It’s also got a great beat and I can dance to it…
I give it an 88, Dick.
"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jul 9, 2009 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
(Clark, of course!)
"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jul 9, 2009 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
no i dont, please do elaborate
The Not-So-Casual Fan
by rktse on Jul 9, 2009 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No need for politics
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 9, 2009 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Howe's" This?
“We should call Waller Aflac…He is Bob Geren’s un-employment insurance.”
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 9, 2009 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
if we rec this post enough, maybe it will happen!!!
rec’d
The Not-So-Casual Fan
by rktse on Jul 9, 2009 1:29 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I have never been impressed
With Geren as our manager. Billy Martin said in his book, that they way to win games is to make the other manager make mistakes or overmanage. Geren continually falls prey th this. Perhaps he should get his head out of his notepad and watch the game. many people think the manager has little effect on a team. Look at Colorado, what a turaround after firing Clint Hurdle.
So lets say they fire Geren, who takes over? Another Steve Boros, Jackie Moore clone? I’m afraid thats what we would get. Personally I go outside of the organization and get a manager with some fire in his soul…Gene Tenace would be my first pick, Dave Stewart my second.
Stomp,em, stomp the piss out of em.Then pound the budweiser after the game. Joe Schultz Seattle Piolts Mgr 1969
by billyball1981 on Jul 9, 2009 1:37 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Lansford, Tennace, Stewart:
All good choices.
I hold out against all hope that they’d take on Bobby V, but that is a pipe dream…
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 9, 2009 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1...
"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jul 9, 2009 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
put pipe down my friend....that's it....nice and easy.....good boy!
:)
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
by mrod on Jul 9, 2009 6:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think a telling moment was when
Ron Washington took the Texas job before the A’s made their decision/finished interviewing potential candidates.
That said so much to me – We all speculated that his interview for the A’s job was mere formality on the A’s part (i.e. Geren was the shoe-in), but it became reality to me when Wash took the Texas job as soon as it was offered.
I know his hometown is closer to Arlington than Oakland – but that he would leave the A’s after 13 years without waiting for the chance to be promoted within, spoke volumes to me at the time.
I never wanted to believe Geren was just Billy’s Yes-Man; but I also didn’t want to believe that Billy would hand the GM duties to Forst. After watching the trades in the off-season vs. the acquisitions since, and watching the infield make so many errors (mental as well as official), … I don’t know what to believe these days.
Bob Geren, on 8/2/07, on the success of Alan Embree as new interim closer: "What can I say,... he's been our Steady Tremendous Bullpen Man"
by popcornjames on Jul 9, 2009 2:03 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
But he DID wait to be promoted within.
If the A’s intended to have Wash be manager they could have hired him the year before, when Macha was briefly gone and then back again a week later. Or they could have moved him to bench coach with a clear understanding that he’s next in line. They didn’t do that.
By the year of the Geren interviews, I think, it was already too late. Wash took the Texas job immediately because it was a better opportunity for him than Oakland.
I suspect you have it backwards with respect to who was waiting for whom. We can only speculate, but I believe that the reason Wash took the Texas job before Oakland’s interview process was finished is because the interviews were waiting on him. That is, Billy already knew that Oakland was Wash’s second choice, so he had to wait to know whether Wash was still available to him before making his final decision.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
by iglew on Jul 9, 2009 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
its like the chicken and the egg
You are correct, I forgot about the Macha fired/Macha re-hired moment. But back then, for whatever reason, I don’t remember seeing Wash’s name come up for consideration as skipper in any sports pages.
I guess my real point is that a good manager, like Wash, would put Oakland anywhere BUT first choice, knowing full well that he would have really limited managerial power.
Bob Geren, on 8/2/07, on the success of Alan Embree as new interim closer: "What can I say,... he's been our Steady Tremendous Bullpen Man"
by popcornjames on Jul 9, 2009 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Both Washington and Geren were interviewed that week.
A few others were scheduled for interviews, but Macha came back before it go that far. The candidate list was not that much different from the list the following year, including Hershiser and Quirk, in addition to Washington and Geren.
See story here. Or this one from earlier in the week with a little more focus on Washington.
As I recall, fan opinion here on AN was overwhelmingly in favor of Washington, even more than it was the following year.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
by iglew on Jul 9, 2009 6:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for finding that
I, for the record, always wanted Washington. I think Chavez giving him a gold glove shows he helps players improve on the defensive margins in an unusual way.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Jul 9, 2009 6:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tons of discussion on AN.
Just use the advanced search to look for “Ron Washington” during October of 2005 and you’ll find a zillion posts.
Perhaps my recollection was wrong, though. Skimming the 2005 posts now, it seems that support for Wash as manager was less universal than it was in 2006, though still pretty strong.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
by iglew on Jul 9, 2009 6:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I also see that in 2005 Washington was
a serious candidate for the Florida job, and a frequent mentionee for the Dodgers.
My guess — purely a gut instinct with no real evidence — is that in 2005 the A’s would have been his first choice, had he gotten more than one offer. But then by 2006 he was more interested in a fresh start elsewhere.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
by iglew on Jul 9, 2009 6:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I were DON Wakamatsu, I'd be a bit upset.
I wouldn’t want anything to do with the spineless BOB Geren. Even if it meant having to be called BOB Wakamatsu. Heh just saying.
by soccerman8 on Jul 9, 2009 2:22 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I guess I had "Bob" on my mind!!!
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 9, 2009 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This stat cannot be true:
over the last 28 games Cabrera has 29 hits, 8 2Bs, 2HR and has only scored 3 Runs!?!?!
That cannot be true…Can it?
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 9, 2009 2:25 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
It is true!!!
Is this a record for futility out of a #2 hitter?
Wow!!! 3-5 are absolutely TERRIBLE!!!!
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 9, 2009 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mmm Hmmm
Those players Bob Geren really sucks at driving in runs.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Jul 9, 2009 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
With Cust hitting .350 lifetime against Wakes:
Maybe he could have been in the 3 hole yesterday. Especially seeing that Geren’s static 3-5 in the line-up has been so pathetic.
Then again, that would be good managing.
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 9, 2009 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh yeah, and the fact that Wakes almost:
Threw a No No last time he faced the A’s.
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 9, 2009 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess SSS
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Jul 9, 2009 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Obviously the manager doesn't take ABs or field ground balls,
but at the same time I think what a good manager does do is to create a climate where players:
1. aren’t afraid to make mistakes
2. are afraid to put in less than maximal effort
The A’s look to me like a team of players that aren’t afraid of either, and that to me signals a problem with the manager.
My take on Geren, and on the main problem with Geren, is that he sets the bar of expectations way too low. This team is certainly full of players who are “getting their work in,” but only Braden, Suzuki, and Kennedy (and maybe a handful of others) come across as “do whatever it takes, play like there’s no tomorrow” players.
I think the lack of fire and the lack of spirit are consequences of this mind-set, and that the overall result is underachievement. Not to suggest that a better manager would be over .500 with this team, but that a better manager would be presiding over more spirit, intensity, urgency, and wins, than this current crew has shown. And tactically he gets schooled far too often for my taste.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 9, 2009 2:45 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Ironic that you listed three of the few A's players playing well
If Geren had better players, they’d be winning more and looking more like "do whatever it takes, play like there’s no tomorrow" players
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Jul 9, 2009 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So, Holliday is not a good player?
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 9, 2009 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Intentionally misread much?
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Jul 9, 2009 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think your sweeping generalizations for all things manager is that
“It’s not the manager, he doesn’t play.” That can apply to every single thing any player does or doesn’t do on the field, and if that’s your perspective that’s fine. I happen to disagree, but maybe we just have different views of leadership and its potential impact on someone else’s effort, performance, attitude, development, and so on — and the contagious nature that things like effort, intensity, etc. have on a team.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 9, 2009 4:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I may be way off here
But I think what he was saying is that as terrible as Geren is, part of the problem is he doesn’t have the players that those other teams do.
I tend to agree with you that a manager can have intangible effects on a team for the better, but at a certain point, you have to have the talent. At the major league level, Geren hasn’t had those players the past two years. Usually, it’s one or two good players, and at least two horrid players in addition.
Trust me, I personally think Geren is a terrible manager, and to be honest, I’m relatively certain nearly everyone here would echo that sentiment, but ultimately, there has to be some talent, or at the very least, people have to start performing somewhat closely to projections.
by MrMoneyBaller on Jul 9, 2009 4:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You hit the nail on the head:
We have the talent, BUT, they are underperforming.
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 9, 2009 4:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No -- it's more they DON'T have the talent, but they STILL are
underperforming for the talent they DO have.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 9, 2009 4:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That too
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 9, 2009 4:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even Billy Martin
probably wouldn’t have this club over .500… but he’d be a lot closer!
Maybe he’d end up putting another pitcher or two on the DL, though… Who knows?
"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jul 9, 2009 5:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Billy might have this club over .500
The starters would be going 9 IP, triple steals would be solving the low RISP problem, a platoon of Hannahan and Crosby would be bizarrely productive, and by 2011 the team would be in ruins.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 9, 2009 5:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's all true... it's all true...
I deny nothing!
"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jul 9, 2009 7:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And I don't disagree with that at all
My feeling is that with this team, the best a manager could hope to get out of his team would be a hard-nosed, “find every run that’s out there” offense that would tag up to second more because it lacked a lot of doubles-power, took advantage of most every “runner at second nobody out” or “runner at third one out” opportunity by being exceptional at the “productive out” knowing they just couldn’t be that good at getting hits or hitting long balls, and would ultimately try to outscore its opponent by a run in low-scoring games on the backs of pretty good pitching…and would be around .500, no better.
What I don’t see is much “heads up” defense, baserunning, executing, etc. — on the contrary, I see a TON of sloppy play, beyond that which can be explained just by the lack of talent.
In other words, this team could not be playing .550 ball under ANY manager, but it could be playing a heck of a lot better baseball than it is.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 9, 2009 4:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with you.
But I believe the OP has been making the case that the managers ability is directly proportional to the amount of wins the team has, while sort of ignoring the fact that the players just aren’t as talented.
by MrMoneyBaller on Jul 9, 2009 5:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And I certainly don't agree with that.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 9, 2009 5:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly.
We’re on the same page.
by MrMoneyBaller on Jul 9, 2009 5:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not I Senor:
If the shoe fits your foot, you may want to wear it.
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 9, 2009 4:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I said "three of the few"
Hollday is a good player (and our best hitter even in an off year).
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Jul 9, 2009 4:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So effort is a by product of talent?
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 9, 2009 4:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The appearance of effort is
It’s hard to look “energetic” when striking out, it’s easy to look energetic hitting bases-clearing doubles.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Jul 9, 2009 4:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tejada looked energetic while striking out
Didn’t seem too hard. Just show a general passion for the game regardless.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
by DMOAS on Jul 9, 2009 4:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
We want to see players out there hungry for victory like a junkie’s hungry for drugs…
"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jul 9, 2009 5:13 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Maybe that's part of why they're playing well
The “do whatever it takes” bit, I mean.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
by Flashfire on Jul 9, 2009 4:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe
My guess is that it’s why they look like they’re trying harder.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Jul 9, 2009 5:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So, Maybe. If a manager lit a fire under their butts:
We’d have better results.
This is not a Championship team, but I think this team needs Geren or someone to walk into the showers and throw all the bats on the ground and give the lolligagger speach.
Either that, OR, the old Jeff Tam glove burn.
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 9, 2009 5:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think if the imaginary "ultimate manager" was running this team
They’d have no more than 2 or 3 more wins than they do now.
I think that’s, ultimately, our disagreement, and it isn’t one we can resolve.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Jul 9, 2009 5:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have a few issues with this.
First of all, I think that a lot of the time, being shitty at baseball is mistaken for lacking spirit/fire/effort. I think this team is giving optimal effort. I highly doubt that 25 guys, all of whom are vying for jobs next year, wouldn’t give optimal effort. It is their livlihood after all. As for fire/spirit: I think that this is result of winning, not a cause. I mean, I guess it would be cool if Jack Cust sprinted to the dugout after a strickout and got fired up and highfived everyone, but I don’t really see that happening.
I do think Geren is terrible. But not because of leadership/expectations or that stuff. I think he’s terrible because he insists on making boneheaded mistakes (batting OCab second, etc.) and not adjusting when things don’t work. However, he doesn’t have much to work with and his mistakes are magnified because of the team is so bad.
But that’s just my opinion.
"True fact: In a global thermonuclear war, the only human who would survive would be David Eckstein" -PT
by travdog6 on Jul 9, 2009 4:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with most of this.
Although I think terrible is too strong.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Jul 9, 2009 4:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My own perspective on
when you say, “I think a lot of the time, being shitty at baseball is mistaken for lacking spirit/fire/effort.” Personally, I think a lot of the time, a lack of spirit/fire/effort is mistaken for being shitty at baseball. And I most certainly believe one can impact the other, some on an individual level and even more on the contagious team-wide level.
Agree or disagree, folks should at least remember that I have traveled with professional teams and not only been the clubhouse on a daily basis throughout seasons, but also spoken at length with managers, coaches, broadcasters, players, etc. in order to get their perspective on these issues. That doesn’t make me right, but I’m just saying that I bring the perspectives of a lot of insiders into my commentary.
And you’d be amazed how many professional players DO “mail it in” or are satisfied just to be “good enough,” and how striking it is to see those few (and Braden and Suzuki would be in that group) who are driven to be the best they can be and to work as hard as it takes, and how influential coaches can be in bringing out the most or least in what a player has to give.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 9, 2009 5:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I respect your viewpoint/opinion and love all the perspective/knowledge you bring,
but I hve to ask. How do you know that player are mailing it in?
"True fact: In a global thermonuclear war, the only human who would survive would be David Eckstein" -PT
by travdog6 on Jul 9, 2009 5:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you know who's mailing it in at your work?
I know that at my work, Rosa is David Eckstein with the low talent, high work ethic, while Omar daydreams his way through the day and puts in as little effort as he can get away with, but he’s so talented that it’s worth putting up with if we want to get certain jobs done. Frank, though, wants to daydream all day like Omar, but he’s not very talented, and hates criticism, so the boss gives him shit every day, not to be mean, but just to keep him motivated to get his job done. Angela is the Kurt Suzuki… the young Field General keeping it all together, with the right attitude and motivation for all, as well as the ability to get the job done, herself.
I could go on, but the point, of course, is, if a slacker like me can glean these perceptions from my workplace, why couldn’t Nico glean these perceptions from his workplace?
I hope, travdog6, that you’re not falling into the old baseball trap of “you haven’t been a player so how the hell would you know?” because that, quite frankly, is a specious argument and a pile of shite.
"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jul 9, 2009 5:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
To answer travdog's question,
some of the signs, to me, that can be captured on telecasts, include:
1. A failure to hustle in areas you can control regardless of your ability, such as running grounders and fly balls out hard.
2. A failure to go the extra mile when you could but don’t have to, such as hard slides to break up DPs.
3. Not being actively engaged in what your teammates are / team is doing when you’re on the bench.
The truth, as I see it, is that Braden, Suzuki, and Kennedy are not THAT physically talented by major league standards; the inner qualities they bring to the stadium every day supplement average tools to make them as good as they are.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 9, 2009 5:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Points 1,2, and 3
can arguably apply to a large number of major league ballplayers, not just players on the 09 A’s. That is to say,quite a few ballplayers (both talented and not talented) don’t regularly run out ground balls or hustle consistently, etc. Are all these ballplayers mailing it in?
by Tripp on Jul 9, 2009 10:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes and no
We as fans, want our players to play with as much intensity as they possibly can without pulling a muscle. Maybe to us, this means 95-100%. To certain players who can get by without maximum effort, maybe to them that means 80-90%…
To us, that means they’re mailing it in, but to them, they’re just pacing themselves for the long season.
"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jul 10, 2009 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't really know much about #3,
but to me 1 and 2 are common throughout baseball, and not unique to the A’s. Sure it’d be nice if the A’s ran hard on every play. And honestly, it seems like most of the players are giving maximum effort. I guess my point is this: talent is much more important than effort.
"True fact: In a global thermonuclear war, the only human who would survive would be David Eckstein" -PT
by travdog6 on Jul 9, 2009 11:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Talent vs. Effort
Talent is important, but it’s effort that makes the difference. Guys get to the Majors either with talent or with effort, but it’s still the effort that counts. Case in point: Pete Rose. Case also in point: Jose Canseco.
by richwol1 on Jul 10, 2009 12:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So, Pete Rose wasn't talented?
I’m guessing that’s not what you mean.
"True fact: In a global thermonuclear war, the only human who would survive would be David Eckstein" -PT
by travdog6 on Jul 10, 2009 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How about Jack Hannahan?
He certainly had effort, the talent? Not so much, at least offensively.
by MrMoneyBaller on Jul 10, 2009 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"I could go on, but the point, of course, is, if a slacker like me can glean these perceptions from my workplace, why couldn’t Nico glean these perceptions from his workplace?"
The A’s clubhouse isn’t Nico’s workplace (unless I’m missing something and Nico actually does have exclusive, daily access to A’s players). Nico’s perceptions are based off of what he can see from his TV and the stands just like every other fan. Obviously, any perceptions gained from this limited and distant view might be flawed or inaccurate.
And I don’t think travdog is making the "you haven’t been a player so how the hell would you know?" argument. Not to speak for him, but I think he’s just questioning how Nico (or any other fan) could determine whether or not a player is “mailing it in” when, like I said, we can only view these players from quite a distance.
by Tripp on Jul 9, 2009 10:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Um, a major league clubhouse was Nico's workplace for quite a while
and that’s what my comment references.
I’m saying that a halfway observant batboy in a clubhouse can figure out who plays with intensity and pride and who mails it in, regardless of talent level.
"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jul 10, 2009 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, that's not what I'm falling into at all.
My question was quite simply what makes you say that. And I simply disagree that anyone on the A’s is mailing it in.
Furthermore, if you read my comments you will know that I am far from the perception that “you have to be a baseball player to know”.
"True fact: In a global thermonuclear war, the only human who would survive would be David Eckstein" -PT
by travdog6 on Jul 9, 2009 11:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe
My first reaction to that is “why don’t players suddenly improve dramatically when Jim Leyland takes over?”
I think there’s less mailing it in in baseball, because the single most important thing for a hitter is the hitting, which is enormously difficult skill-wise, but not that hard endurance-wise or pain-wise. (for contrast, think running the court in basketball, or blocking in football)
Not running out grounders sucks, but is usually not going to change the outcome.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Jul 9, 2009 6:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I figure hitting is one area where they don't really 'take it off' but it can show up a lot more in how much someone hustles in the field
So much of this can be traced back to accountability as well, or a lack of it, whether it comes from the manager or other players.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
by Flashfire on Jul 9, 2009 6:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's possible
And there’s certainly some evidence that Holliday’s fielding is bad.
That said, the sample is waaaaay too small to conclude he’s not trying as hard.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Jul 9, 2009 6:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not even sure I'd say he's not trying hard
Whether his head is fully in the game is another question, and one I have about several players.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 9, 2009 6:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe
But Holliday built his career on playing for shitty teams. I think it’s more likely he’s having a hard time adjusting to the AL (see Cabrera, M.) and it’s affecting his overall play because he cares too much.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Jul 9, 2009 6:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I sit in LF when I go to games:
I have not seen him go all out for a ball all season. Small sample size or not.
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 10, 2009 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's some more evidence
Although the problem with eyeball defense ratings is that they make people like Jeter look good
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Jul 10, 2009 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jeter is good:
And defies defensive metrics by using his brain to position himself properly and do the right thing with the baseball in his hands, both of which are non-measurable with current stats. Or are they?
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 10, 2009 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Defensive stats rate (or, at least, rated) him poorly because he didn't make as many plays as other SS
Which directly contradicts the “using his brain to position himself properly” point. If he did that (like, say, Ellis does) he’d make more plays than he does.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Jul 10, 2009 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Strike-out rates and GB/FB Ratios of pitching staffs, as well as the range of his 3B
would all have to be factored in for that argument to stick.
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 13, 2009 10:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jeter is a terrible defender
This is the first year of his career he has an above average defensive rating, and it’s by 0.2 runs above average. For his career he’s roughly 5 runs below average, and for someone who gets as much credit as he does, that’s absolutely ridiculous.
by MrMoneyBaller on Jul 10, 2009 3:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seems like most of that
is intuitively human. Doesn’t really matter what the job is or how much you’re getting, you’re going to react to the basic human factors like environment, age, management, personal life, etc. To suggest otherwise seems ridiculous to me.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
by DMOAS on Jul 10, 2009 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
true, and the thing is...
if the players were to play with the passion and intensity that most of us want as fans, they wouldn’t be able to have much of a life outside of the game.
But I’m not on their side, no sir… I don’t want players to have much of a life outside of baseball. I want them to be dedicated to and obsessed with their craft, on a daily mission to achieve team and personal excellence. As unreasonable as this may sound, I get upset when I hear players having kids, because I feel that there are not enough hours in a day to be a good parent and to be the best baseball player you can be.
But I’m a Bill Lee type. There should be holy water at the gates and you shoud genuflect as you walk into the park…. Flannel unis, no DH’s, no PA systems, and dead Hall of Famers should be prayed to as saints. Yes, I’m serious.
"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jul 10, 2009 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, they make enough money so that
they can expect the wives and nannies to do 95% of the parenting, and just show up for the fun stuff. I think the wives understand and expect that.
Much more of a problem for the minor leaguers, I would think, since they don’t make as much.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
by iglew on Jul 10, 2009 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The body language of the players in the dugout tells it all.....
“Fuck this guy and his finger sniffing ass!”
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
by mrod on Jul 9, 2009 7:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
you're telling me he uses the finger as a probe
before he sniffs it?
that’s unsanitary, man!
"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jul 9, 2009 7:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Haha! LOL!!!!!!
That’s just on of my biggest pet peeves and I get so irritated and grosed out when I see him do that. {Shiver….yuck!}
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
by mrod on Jul 9, 2009 8:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it's funny, but I wish it were some other team's manager...
I tell you what… If I were managing a ballclub, I would make damn sure that I didn’t pick my nose, butt, or ear unless I was in the safety of a locked bathroom!
"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jul 10, 2009 11:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not to mention if you were prime minister of Australia.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
by iglew on Jul 10, 2009 1:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Hi! I'm Bob Geren and I endorse this statement."

Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
by mrod on Jul 10, 2009 11:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Hull, hull. Duh!"
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 11, 2009 10:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
last night game for example
You have Wakefield a knuckleball pitcher pitching and you don’t steal any bases against him when his pitch takes so long to get to home plate. How many times did he throw over to first to keep the baserunner close? I don’t think he did at all. Youklis is not a good thirdbaseman since he plays so deep(the gold glove was for his bat) so with a knuckleball pitcher try the bunt. Geren makes out a lineup card then sits in the dugout. That is how he manages.
by Arcman on Jul 9, 2009 3:31 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
+2
I blame Rajai Davis for Geren’s lack of baserunning strategy this year.
Bob Geren, on 8/2/07, on the success of Alan Embree as new interim closer: "What can I say,... he's been our Steady Tremendous Bullpen Man"
by popcornjames on Jul 9, 2009 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I blame Billy Beane for not hiring Rickey Henderson to coach first
to tell Rajai Davis what the heck his baserunning strategy is this year…
Well, actually, no I don’t, but Rajai is no Rickey in deciphering pitchers’ motions.
"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jul 9, 2009 5:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Funny how he gets accused of over- and under-managing in the same thread.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Jul 9, 2009 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So, Do you think Geren is doing a good job?
Should he be the manager in 2010? At this rate?
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by saint on Jul 9, 2009 4:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he's made some bad decisions, and maybe cost the team a win or two (at the outside)
I don’t think he’s the problem. Giambi, Cabrera, etc. are.
He also isn’t the solution.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Jul 9, 2009 4:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
NO
My point is the only managing he does is write out a lineup. Baseball is a game of out guessing the other team. The Angels are good example of a team that out thinks other teams. They are always moving runners up, hit and run, steals and pitch outs. If a pitcher doesn’t need to worry about a baserunner or a bunt then he can concentrate on the batter. The sidestep reduces pitches effectiveness.
by Arcman on Jul 9, 2009 5:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think a good specific example was the failed double-steal
(Rajai at 1st / Crosby at 3rd) against Cliff Lee the other day. That isn’t a “good” or “bad” play; it’s good or bad depending on the situation. And the situation was that Cliff Lee was at over 110 pitches and was having trouble getting out of the inning, Orlando Cabrera was up against a LHP swinging as hot a bat as he’s swung all year, and he wasn’t even in an 0-2 hole or anything.
What they did was to let Lee off the hook, whereas had the batter been Hannahan, Lee’s pitch count at 70, and the count 0-2, it’s a perfectly good move.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 9, 2009 6:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's conceivable that he does both over- and under-manage
He might over-manage in some aspects of the game, under-manage in others. Or, out of panic or lack of a coherent and consistent plan, veer from one mode to the other.
Whether any of this is actually the case, I can’t say.
by Ray of Lite on Jul 9, 2009 6:03 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Can we agree that baseball is a mind game...
I would say significantly more than most sports. So the presence of a manager who creates a positive climate- piggybacking off nico’s comment- is paramount to hitter’s experiencing success. As a manager, the more you can weed out extranious factors- so that the hitter can focus solely on hitting the ball- the more effective he will be as a manager. So when he does not do that, and instead creates a bunch of other factors- through questionable line-up decisions, random benchings, putting someone in a perceived doghouse, etc.- he is only increasing the probability that the hitter will be mentally affected. I think that Geren does a poor job of this, and that is why some of our young hitters, especially, have not been able to experience early success.
by MAC Attack on Jul 9, 2009 4:48 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
the dog house effect
Has a player like Buck worry that if he doesn’t get a hit every AB than he could be back to sacto. Talk about crazy Geren.
by Arcman on Jul 9, 2009 5:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bingo.
At this point Buck is getting ML ABs at a rate fewer than Rajai Davis. He needs to play consistently, and I think Beane knows that. After all, it’s the exact same reason why Jack Cust became such a breakout for the A’s a few years ago, that is, he never got regular playing time at the major league level, and when he did, he showed what he could really do. Why Beane hasn’t pressed Geren to play him more is beyond me, as Buck has been getting the Gregorio Petit treatment lately.
by MrMoneyBaller on Jul 9, 2009 5:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I believe MAC Attack above has laid the most reasonable argument against Geren
that I have yet seen in this frustrating Athletics season.
"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jul 9, 2009 5:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed, and the same argument could be made with the bullpen as well.
No one ever knows WTF is going on.
by Elvez on Jul 9, 2009 10:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
saint hath spake
heed thou his words, for there shall be no more powerful truths found upon these pages.
Hey, I just bought the team from Lew Wolff... who wants to play third?
by emperor nobody on Jul 9, 2009 5:24 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
heed thou his words, Bob Geren wish to “Tip his hat”, to how much better the rest of the League plays against this team.
by hishnik on Jul 9, 2009 5:40 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Another point on the Hard-to-stomach meter...
Is I think we have all accepted at this point that this is a team for the future. Yet, it doesn’t have that feel b/c of Geren’s lack of perceived ‘stale’ demeanor and insistance on playing the past-their-prime players- Giambi, Nomar, O-cab, Cust (in the outfield)- instead of the players who might have a shot at blossoming into good players for us in the future.
My point is, regardless of whether he is a good manager or not, his personality simply does not seem like a good fit for the direction this club has set out to go- which is young exciting players. He seems like a manager who is more comfortable managing a more veteran-laden clubhouse- which is why the result has been that we have a more veteran-laden lineup.
by MAC Attack on Jul 9, 2009 5:51 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
sorry I meant to say perceived "stale" demeanor;
not Lack of
by MAC Attack on Jul 9, 2009 5:53 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Sorry to beat this dead horse...
but how ‘bout the 9th inning last night if you’re looking for an example of poor managing and/or lack of effort?
There is no conceivable reason why Cabrera or a pinch-runner should not have attempted to steal a base with Papelbon on the mound. None. No excuse whatsoever. You’re down a run, with a man on first and two outs … you have one of the easiest pitchers in baseball to steal off of on the mound.
Either Cabrera simply zoned out and never thought about stealing a bag, or Geren gave him the red light. One or the other. Shitty effort, or shitty managing — which one is it? And if it’s the effort, then shame on Geren for not walking out to first base and yelling STEAL! at Cabrera.
Sure enough, Suzuki hits what should have been a game-tying single. Tell me how that isn’t unbelievably horrible baseball?
I needed a team so I wouldn’t turn into one of the eighty million pink hat-wearing Bud Light-drinking mulleted idiots at Fenway.
by Vacafan on Jul 9, 2009 7:04 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
i yelled at my screen for a good minute on that one
awful, awful, awful.
holdin' it down for the bay from upper westside manhattan
by SamYam on Jul 9, 2009 7:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't quite put that squarely on the manager, though, because
a manager doesn’t usually “order” a straight steal. He gives the green light, in which case the runner has permission, but the runner still has to decide he has the jump and go.
Now if Geren had the red light on, sure that’s totally critique worthy. But assuming he gave Cabrera the green light, and I imagine he did, I’m not sure you can hang Cabrera’s hanging around first base totally on Geren.
On the other hand, his reasoning for playing the infield back and conceding what turned out to be the deciding run, was that “Ortiz is more of a strikeout, pop-up guy anyway.” So…if he strikes out you want the infield back? Isn’t the point of bringing the infield in about the chance — however big or small — that the batter hits it, you know, on the ground? “Hull, hull, duh!!!!”
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 9, 2009 7:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's made so many of those "highly questionable moves" this year already
they all just seem to be one big blur and melt together…….not like in tasty grilled cheese type of way but in a wad of chewing gum frying on the blacktop type of way.
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
by mrod on Jul 9, 2009 8:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Regarding the fanpost title, by the way:
“Oh baby when you manage like this…you make a human get mad…”
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 9, 2009 9:16 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
"....that deer in the headlights look
It seems like often when something questionable happens in a game, and the TV camera is pointed at our manager, he is studying the lineup or note-taking card he carries around; he looks up and has that Geren version ot the deer in the headlights look. Not as good a facial expression as our last President of the U.S., but a very good confused, “what’s going to happen next” look, nevertheless.
by robertmelvin on Jul 10, 2009 1:51 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
You can't blame Geren for the players' abilities
But you can blame him for their lack of progress.
Someone’s got to take the heat for the fact that, of all the position players, only suzuki and kennedy are having decent years while everyone else has had a significant regression. I think Nico’s comments are really damning, because it’s pretty clear that suzuki and kennedy are getting by on internal motivation.
The pitchers, of course, are as a group progressing. But it could be that their talent is overcoming the lack of leadership. And you wonder how they, as well as suzuki and kennedy, would play under Terry Francona.
I’m not too persuaded by the complaints about in-game management. I’m not impressed by what I’ve seen, but too often you just don’t know what’s on management, what’s on the players, and what’s on the other team. I’d guess that, if Geren were a perfect tactician, the A’s might have won another 3 or 4 games TOPS. They’d still be in last place.)
However, player development at the big league level is clearly the responsibility of the manager. And on a young team like the A’s, nothing is more important than player development.
The A’s don’t have player development, they have player regression. And, IMO, for that reason alone Geren must either turn things around, or go.
Do you know the way to San Jose?
by eastcoasta'sfan on Jul 10, 2009 7:07 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Yes we can
We can blame a manager who keeps playing a .195 hitter in the 5th spot even though that player even says he is tired. We can blame him for over using players with no rest so their bat swing slows down. We can blame a manager for not motivating his players. We can blame a manager who uses the same players even though some of them are slumping and need a days rest. Shall I go on.
Geren will use the injury excuse and the under performing excuse but as most A’s fans know he is not the right man for the job.
by Arcman on Jul 10, 2009 8:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm pretty sure it's fair to blame him
For putting someone who is notoriously terrible with a glove in right field over someone with better defense. Or perhaps putting a career backup (Rajai) into the starting lineup more often than someone who’s supposed to be a major league regular, but never gets ABs under Geren (Buck).
by MrMoneyBaller on Jul 10, 2009 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's true
but it’s not like he has a .300 hitter to replace him. Even if we switched mr. .195 with the .220 bat lower in the order, we’re still in last place.
the real concern is that both of those players are capable of hitting over .250 and aren’t.
well, maybe crosby’s ceiling is .240.
Do you know the way to San Jose?
by eastcoasta'sfan on Jul 10, 2009 9:42 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I think everyone should take a gander at
Bruce Jenkins’ column in today’s Chronicle. Not hard to see where he stands on the issue.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 10, 2009 9:55 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Chicken, egg
The Mariners are no powerhouse, but with Ken Griffey Jr. lightening the clubhouse mood and new manager Don Wakamatsu drawing raves for his temperament and handling of the pitching staff, this team has become a legitimate contender in the A.L. West.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Jul 10, 2009 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are a champion Geren-apologist, my friend.
The M’s have, remarkably, a weaker offense than the A’s have — one of the few teams whose slugging pct and runs scored actually rival Oakland’s futility — and have a weaker back of the rotation, with a bullpen led by fricking David Aardsma, yet they are hanging in there in a way the A’s could not … with a manager who could have been the A’s choice “drawing raves for his temperament…” while Geren…has a team that just about everyone agrees looks lifeless, lacking in intensity or fire, sinking to the low level of expectations.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 10, 2009 10:49 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
You don't think that the whole "being 3.5 games out of first" thing helps lighten the clubhouse mood?
I bet the Orioles, Jays, Royals, Indians, Nats, Pirates, D-Backs, and Padres have pretty depressing clubhouses too.
I bet the Royals clubhouse mood was pretty good back when they were in first place.
Did Hillman forget how to have a good temperament?
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Jul 10, 2009 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Weaker back of the rotation-
yes, in that Carlos Silva is currently ERAing over 8. But the rest of the rotation has the following ERA’s: 2.53, 3.08, 2.53, and 3.82. While the A’s starting pitching has been good, it hasn’t been that good.
Also, Ichiro, Branyan, and Gutierrez are all hitting better than any current A.
I’m not defending Geren. I don’t think he’s doing the greatest job. But I do think he gets an undeserved amount of shit around here.
"True fact: In a global thermonuclear war, the only human who would survive would be David Eckstein" -PT
by travdog6 on Jul 10, 2009 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Managers always get blamed
Geren got a pass for last year’s debacle, and Howe and Macha got precious little support for managing winning teams.
The fact is that so many players are underperforming, the team has no sharpness in the field, mental errors happen frequently, and there doesn’t appear to be a person in charge of the whole operation. Geren’s dullness has rubbed off on the players. It’s only when one of the young pitchers is in command that the rest of the team seems to come alive. And there’s an atttitude about leaving runners on base, too much pressing perhaps, that the manager has not been able to change.
Even if Geren were a good manager, it would be time for him to go. That he’s shown little in the way of expertise only exacerbates the situation.
by richwol1 on Jul 10, 2009 12:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I sometimes wonder what those who defend Geren think he does well
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 10, 2009 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's very good at smelling his finger.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
by iglew on Jul 11, 2009 2:05 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which, I might add, is currently undervalued in today's market
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 11, 2009 10:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You said that Hillman was better than Geren...
Geren- .458
Hillman- .451
The numbers are your’s.
I am definitely not backing Geren, just pointing this out.
Wade Hines
by Wader on Jul 10, 2009 10:01 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
This is quite funny from the ESPN Message Board in their "Official Fire Geren" Thread
The reason why people aren’t jumping on the fire geren wagon is cause we jumped on the fire Howe wagon, then the fire Macha wagon, and then most of us (those of us who aren’t m0rons) realized that there was a consistent pattern of failure that requires one to look elsewhere to fix the problem. And yes if you haven’t noticed this pattern YET!! Then you just starting being an a’s fan in 2006 (in which case welcome) or you are, indeed, a m0ron. And I realize that there are no fire beane threads cause he has some measure of success with finding cheap talent — but even that’s pretty much dried up — but saying geren should be fired is like telling a drunk he’d be better off drinking bushmills instead of Jameson. Same problem. Different name. Whooopdeeedoooo!!!
http://boards.espn.go.com/boards/mb/mb?sport=mlb&id=oak&tid=5018286&lid=17
by Trainman on Jul 10, 2009 10:48 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Calling people morons while making constant grammatical errors makes an ass out of you.
Also, has everyone forgotten that we are still rebuilding?
"True fact: In a global thermonuclear war, the only human who would survive would be David Eckstein" -PT
by travdog6 on Jul 10, 2009 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's the real point.
I’m beginning to think you and I, and a maybe a few others may be the only one’s who realize that anymore.
by MrMoneyBaller on Jul 10, 2009 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The A's need a manager that motivates....
and these managers motivate with different styles IMO:
Joe Madden
Mike Scioscia
Terry Francona
Ron Washington
I do not get to watch the A’s often (this weekend since they are in TB) but from what I have in AN and some observations I made when I do see them Geren seems to be just there collecting $$$. There is no DRIVE/HUSTLE/ENTHUSIASM in the players and certainly none in BG or the coaches.
The Swingin A'zzzzzzzzzzzzz!!
by OakFaninFL on Jul 10, 2009 12:09 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
** WHAT I HAVE READ IN AN ......
The Swingin A'zzzzzzzzzzzzz!!
by OakFaninFL on Jul 10, 2009 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Geren clearly isn't very good.
Neither are the Oakland Athletics. In a sense, they’re made for each other.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on Jul 10, 2009 12:47 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Ok the A's are last in the AL in Avg, Slg, OBP, TB, HR, OPS been outscored 347-390
So whoever is managing is going to have a hard time. That said the A’s are 10-18 in extra-inning or one run games. a good manager would find a way to win at least half the time.
To compare to the rest of our division on those type of games: LA-16-12, TX-19-12, Seat-26-17.
by OmahaHi on Jul 10, 2009 1:48 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
And what do all those teams have in common?
BETTER PLAYERS THAN US
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Jul 10, 2009 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't agree, actually
I really don’t think Seattle has, on balance, better players than Oakland has.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 10, 2009 4:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A little copy paste action cause I'm lazy
Yes, the back of the rotation is poor in that Carlos Silva is currently ERAing over 8. But the rest of the rotation has the following ERA’s: 2.53, 3.08, 2.53, and 3.82. While the A’s starting pitching has been good, it hasn’t been that good.
Also, Ichiro, Branyan, and Gutierrez are all hitting better than any current A.
"True fact: In a global thermonuclear war, the only human who would survive would be David Eckstein" -PT
by travdog6 on Jul 10, 2009 4:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That doesn't make those guys better players
The fact that Branyan is way outperforming Holliday in 2009 doesn’t mean the M’s have “the better player.” Now whether the manager has a lot of influence, any influence, or no influence over why one guy is exceeding all expectations while the other guy is falling short of all expectations is another matter.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 10, 2009 4:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.
On pretty much everythiing in this thread.
"True fact: In a global thermonuclear war, the only human who would survive would be David Eckstein" -PT
by travdog6 on Jul 10, 2009 4:41 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Reply FAIL to Nico.
"True fact: In a global thermonuclear war, the only human who would survive would be David Eckstein" -PT
by travdog6 on Jul 10, 2009 4:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's ok! You'll still be in the lineup tomorrow!
Ice cream for everyone!!!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 10, 2009 7:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
YAYY!!!111
ICE CREAM!!!1
"True fact: In a global thermonuclear war, the only human who would survive would be David Eckstein" -PT
by travdog6 on Jul 10, 2009 7:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
While I don't blame him for the fact that a number of
the players seem to lack the ability to, y’know, PLAY, I do think that since we can’t fire 90% of the roster, tossing Geren would be a solid idea. His use of the bullpen and his managing decisions have been a little shaky, and there just doesn’t seem to be any ability on his part to get the players to push past where the team is now. A shakeup may be needed, and tossing Geren is an easy way to do it.
Kurt Suzuki for manager! :-D
"This must be heaven," he says.
"No. It's Oakland."
by Kyli on Jul 11, 2009 11:05 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Well put.
He has a poor team that is playing well BELOW their already considerably low ability.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 11, 2009 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

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