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John Sickels Likes Matt Holliday - Brett Wallace Deal for Oakland

I truly trust John Sickels' views on prospects and he seems to really love Brett Wallace, giving him an A- in this year's edition of The Baseball Prospect Book.  But he also added a take on today's deal at Minor League Ball, seemingly really liking the deal for Oakland.  Course he likes St. Louis also taking a chance on winning now, but like I imagine many will like the deal long-term for the A's.

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Sickels is the bomb when it comes to grading prospects

PREPAREDNESS_Because those goddamn zombies aren’t going to kill themselves

by adragon on Jul 24, 2009 12:04 PM PDT reply actions  

Only if "diggity" is added afterward

Though that can be nullified with “foshiggidale.”

by Joey C. on Jul 24, 2009 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

Let me translate

He’s the bee’s knees. That’s how you people spoke back then, right?

Rickey Henderson's strike zone is "smaller than Hitler's heart." - Jim Murray

by JLaff on Jul 25, 2009 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

I just feel it kills the A's chances in 2009.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jul 24, 2009 12:41 PM PDT reply actions  

That chance imploded the second

we got demolished by the Mariners early in the season…

100% Athletics, 100% Baseball. 2009 Athletics, 40% Baseball.

by fruitattack on Jul 24, 2009 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

I kind of agree -- I felt the season effectively ended

in the bottom of the 14th inning at Safeco.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jul 24, 2009 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

The way I see the trade

Clay Mortensen is, as someone put it, a Right Handed Greg Smith, but with out the track record and left handedness (and some major league success) that Smith had.

So it really comes down to Carlos Gonzalez and Huston Street compared to Brett Wallace and Shane Peterson.

We also have to think about what Huston Street’s trade value is right now, and what he can fetch.

If you compare Brett Wallace and Carlos Gonzalez, I am more inclined personally to take Gonzalez. CarGon plays a premium defensive position, is the same age as Wallace, is putting up an awesome line at AAA right now. Wallace, though fresh out of college, is limited defensively and putting up a worse line offensively.

Then we get down to Huston Street vs. Shane Peterson, and I would definently take Street, who at the very least has much more trade value than Peterson.

So no, I would not say that we got more value from trading Holliday than what we gave up, based on comparing the players alone.

Don't believe in yourself.
Believe in Me who believes in You.

by Zonis on Jul 24, 2009 6:30 PM PDT reply actions   1 recs

money spent should also be considered a factor

How much money did the A’s spend to turn CarGo into Wallace?

Not that I’m against the trade at all (I personally love it), but that should also be factored in when you consider how good/bad of a trade it was.

"I am not pleased with myself."
- Leo Tolstoy, after he masturbated.

by The Most Interesting mAN on Jul 24, 2009 7:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well, if you're going to include that,

you should also include the value of four months of Holliday. He wasn’t great, but he was still better than replacement value.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Jul 24, 2009 7:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

he's a valuable player

but that doesnt mean he provided value to the 2009 oakland a’s.

"I am not pleased with myself."
- Leo Tolstoy, after he masturbated.

by The Most Interesting mAN on Jul 24, 2009 8:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

Do you say that because you think

the A’s would have won just as many games without him?
Or because you think A’s wins in 2009 have no value?

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Jul 25, 2009 4:45 AM PDT up reply actions  

it’s tough, but CarGon has seen MLB pitching already with not much to show for it.

"We lose to Stanford in many sports, but if you want to make a Cal team quit, bring a weapon."
--Coach Clark

by carp on Jul 24, 2009 7:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

Gonzalez can't hit ML pitching.

Some motherfcukers are always trying to ice skate uphill - Blade.

by OldhamA on Jul 25, 2009 2:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

Awesome line

the key is he’s walking. But if he can’t maintain that, I doubt he’s ever a big leaguer.

"True fact: In a global thermonuclear war, the only human who would survive would be David Eckstein" -PT

by travdog6 on Jul 25, 2009 3:09 AM PDT up reply actions  

I agree (with grover)

While Mortensen needs some work on his command (like Greg Smith), he does throw a sinker, which should give him a lot of ground balls. Pitchers can make it pretty far on ground balls. Smith, on the other hand, had a GB/FB ratio of 0.75 last season (but yeah, he does have that awesome pick-off move).

by colin on Jul 25, 2009 10:44 AM PDT up reply actions  

Smith

has also had the same health stability as Harden this year. I was a big fan of smith last year, but his stock has really dropped with his abysmal 2009 season

by hishnik on Jul 25, 2009 11:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

His 2009 was predictable.

Part of his success was that he was in Oakland, with the Defense behind him as well as the park factors. Bring that to Coors, and this is what you get-what everyone predicted last off season.

Don't believe in yourself.
Believe in Me who believes in You.

by Zonis on Jul 26, 2009 7:31 AM PDT up reply actions  

+1

The potential upside of Wallace is as a .280/20HR kind of hitter who plays average on 3rd defensively. But he could also be a bust once he sees major league pitching. He does not have star potential. The A’s needed to trade for someone in the minors who was a top 10 MLB prospect. That didn’t happen.

The A’s need some All Star caliber players sometime down the line. Anderson could get there. But offensively, they don’t have much of anything. Unless they get lucky in the draft or someone like Carter develops, this team has a future of piss-poor offense mixed with above average pitching. That’s not a winning combination.

It’s been over a decade since the A’s drafted or signed some great young offensive talent (Giambi, Chavez, Tejada). Somehow, they need get better at finding some bats. You can’t win with .240 15HR hitters up and down the lineup; even Koufax and Drysdale needed better backing than that.

by rovingralph on Jul 25, 2009 8:03 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think he has an outside chance at star potential

There are legitimate baseball folks (like Sickels) who think that Wallace is a tremendous hitter. If he puts up a line of .300/.380/.500, and he plays average 3B, he’s a star.

Now, I don’t think it’s likely that he’ll hit like that, but it seems to be possible. I also don’t think it’s likely that he’ll stick at 3B, but it’s also possible.

CarGon is a very good CF who might hit enough to be a very valuable player. Wallace is likely to be a very good hitter, who might field well enough (at 3B) to be a very valuable player. He could hit so well that he’ll be an asset at 1B or DH, but that would involve him getting to pony-land hitting performance, from what I can tell. I think any projection of who’s going to be more valuable over the course of his career, at this point, is almost entirely guesswork and intuition.

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Jul 25, 2009 9:07 AM PDT up reply actions  

top 10 MLB prospect

There’s just no way we’re going to get anything like that for 3 months of Matt Holliday. Given what we had to trade, I think that it went very well.

Since the trade deadline is approaching, you could throw out some ideas for trades that would net the Athletics a top 10 hitting prospect, but I think you would probably have to start with Brett Anderson (or maybe Cahill) as someone we give up.

by colin on Jul 25, 2009 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions  

How bad does a contending team want to win?

I agree that it’s likely Holliday wasn’t generating that much interest. Apparently, Holliday wasn’t worth mortgaging the future for those teams trying to win this year.

The A’s ended up with someone with a nice stroke who has yet to hit for power, is not a very good fielder, and has never been tested by MLB pitching. He’s also a local boy, which is nice. If that was as good as they could do, they would have been better off holding onto Holliday for the year, and either having him accept arbitration or use draft picks from his leaving to find some hitting.

Anderson and Cahill will hopefully mature into the top of the A’s pitching staff. I agree that the A’s don’t have much else to trade to get a top 10 hitting prospect, but those two need to stay here. Somehow, the A’s need to find three young guys who can really hit and keep them for a half dozen years until they become too expensive. When your best offensive threat is Jack Cust, you’re in big trouble.

by rovingralph on Jul 25, 2009 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

oh, and

Gonzalez’s career OBP in the minors is 42 points lower than Wallace’s, while his SLG is only 18 points higher. There’s no basis for implying that Gonzalez is or will be a better hitter than Wallace.

by ozzman99 on Jul 25, 2009 10:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

I was comparing what they're doing this year.

Don't believe in yourself.
Believe in Me who believes in You.

by Zonis on Jul 26, 2009 7:34 AM PDT up reply actions  

fair enough

Although I’d counter by again pointing out that Gonzalez is nearly a year older than Wallace. Also, Wallace has 222 AB’s in AAA this year, and in that time, he has put up a .293/.346/.423 line. Through Gonzalez’s first 215 AB’s at the same level (‘07 and ’08 combined happen), he posted a .288/.354/.423 line (if anyone wants to double-check my math on those numbers, I’d appreciate it). Those numbers are pretty similar, although I’ll grant you that Gonzalez was younger at that time that Wallace is now. On the other hand, Gonzalez had a great deal more experience with wooden bats at that point. Could that be a factor at all?

Now, if they are similar hitters, than obviously Gonzalez is the better player due to his defensive value. But I think that Gonzalez’s struggles in the majors, combined with the fact that Wallace has held his own despite being aggressively promoted, leads many of us to see more potential in Wallace’s bat than in Gonzalez’s.

by ozzman99 on Jul 26, 2009 10:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

truly trust?

as opposed to trust just because he’s on SB Nation?

i keed i keeeed

"I am not pleased with myself."
- Leo Tolstoy, after he masturbated.

by The Most Interesting mAN on Jul 24, 2009 7:01 PM PDT reply actions  

Good deal

I like the fact that this deal gives you hope that it might be good. I’m not sure you’d trade Cargo and many millions for Wallace … but what the heck, it’s not like it was an incredibly stupid, loser trade from Day One. Like, say, the Rich Harden trade.

by solotar on Jul 24, 2009 7:26 PM PDT reply actions  

The Harden's trades defense was basically that no one knew if his arm would fall off at any time

which it appears to have done this year

Don't believe in yourself.
Believe in Me who believes in You.

by Zonis on Jul 24, 2009 7:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

only partially detached

alaska A residing in northern Idaho.

by ak_A on Jul 24, 2009 7:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

Say what you will about

The Harden trade. But really, what would we get for RIch now?? his 5 ERA and health, really has him at a 0 value

by hishnik on Jul 24, 2009 8:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

And the players we got back were valuable

Donaldson has refound his hitting stroke that he lost in the Cubs’ system; Patterson is in the majors and still might be a good player; Gallagher, even after slumping and getting a room in the Billy Beane Doghouse still netted the team Hairston; and, FWIW, Murton got us Wimberley.

Harden is giving up homers this year at a Cahillian rate. I have no problems at all with the Harden deal, even in retrospect.

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Jul 25, 2009 9:10 AM PDT up reply actions  

The Angel's are making a run at Wertz

From SuSlu and the SF Chronicle:

Beane said he expects that the A’s will continue to be active before Friday’s trade deadline, and an American League source told The Chronicle the Angels were preparing to make a strong bid for reliever Michael Wuertz, potentially offering infielder Sean Rodriguez among others. However, it’s not clear if Beane would trade a player with two more years under team control to a division rival.

While Beane is one of the few GM’s with the watermelons to trade with a division rival, I only like this is the A’s get a big haul in return.

Sometimes life will strike you out on a curve ball and the only choice you have is to flip off the umpire and walk to first base anyway.

by Threepwood XX on Jul 24, 2009 9:35 PM PDT reply actions  

Whoops, ment to put this in the DLD.

Sometimes life will strike you out on a curve ball and the only choice you have is to flip off the umpire and walk to first base anyway.

by Threepwood XX on Jul 24, 2009 9:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sean Rodriguez for Wuertz?

Are you kidding me??? DO IT.

"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."

by lenscrafters on Jul 24, 2009 9:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

+1

Relievers grow on trees.

Power-hitting middl infielders don’t.

Solace: Law says he's a fourth OFer
PaulThomas: I think Keith Law is only a fourth analyst

by hero66 on Jul 24, 2009 10:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

Do not trade this guy to the slegnA

I cannot stomach the thought of him striking out our players for the next two years.

My favorite team is a fucking embarrassment to all true A's fans and they make me sick to my stomach on an almost daily fucking basis. But being a true fan, I will ride this pathetic bunch of losers out and hope that they get better in 2010

by Trainman on Jul 25, 2009 9:41 AM PDT up reply actions  

BB would make this trade in a heartbeat.

Sean Rodriguez (2b)-

 OPS AAA 2008-1.042 ……and has OPSed 1.000+ at stops in two other years before this.
   OPS 2009- .983 ………….and …….. 23 HR/74RBI in 74 games.

No way the Angles make this trade without a much more significant other piece on the A’s part, which I would whole hardily agree to do if I was the A’s.

He has also played more (five) years at SS than 2b (the last two) over the years which should make the A’s even value him more.

"Gratuitous gesticulating together sounds even better"

by OmahaHi on Jul 24, 2009 10:12 PM PDT reply actions  

There is a reason why all the Angels prospects hit like crap in the majors

its because they all play in launching pads. Im not that impressed with Rodriguez.

In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK

by designatedforassignment on Jul 25, 2009 2:08 AM PDT up reply actions  

Salt Lake Team OPS is .780, 106 HR, Sac Team OPS is .763, 92 HR

not a huge difference. Rodriguez is leading the PCL in OPS so he can’t be all smoke and mirrors. I don’t know about his D or how good he was as a SS. What don’t you like about him his upside besides his lack of hitting in the majors in a small sample?

"Gratuitous gesticulating together sounds even better"

by OmahaHi on Jul 25, 2009 2:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah Angels hitting prospects generally put up inflated numbers.

Rodriguez isn’t as good as his numbers but he’s still a pretty good hitter regardless, and extremely versatile (also, only 24). Not sure about him playing short but he can play everywhere else on the infield and the outfield corners. And he’s putting up a .959 OPS on the road. Really, there’s nothing not to be impressed about and if the price is Wuertz, I don’t see any reason why the A’s shouldn’t pull the trigger.

"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."

by lenscrafters on Jul 25, 2009 4:14 AM PDT up reply actions  

If Rodriguez can't play SS (and I don't know one way or the other)

then he’s a waste of time.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Jul 25, 2009 7:29 AM PDT up reply actions  

Screw this trade rumor

I would keep Wuertz and have a really affordable set up guy for the next two years instead of Sean Rodriguez. I’m not impressed….

Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox

by mrod on Jul 27, 2009 11:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

ringolsby is a beane hater always has been

That meant Beane had to cut his losses and take what he could get for Holliday, even if it also required the tight-budged A’s to include $1.5 million to help offset what remains on Holliday’s $13.5 million salary in 2009.

Beane went 0-for-3.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9850012/Cards-played-the-waiting-game-…-and-won

by Asfan4ever723 on Jul 25, 2009 11:46 PM PDT reply actions  

LOL @ Brett Wallace doesn't have enough RIIIBIES to be any good

In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK

by designatedforassignment on Jul 25, 2009 11:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

That article really pisses me off.

Do your fucking research buddy.

The cost? Three prospects, none of which showed promise of having an impact in St. Louis.

Really?

"True fact: In a global thermonuclear war, the only human who would survive would be David Eckstein" -PT

by travdog6 on Jul 26, 2009 1:02 AM PDT up reply actions  

If you assume that Wallace's only 2 positions will be 1B and DH, then that's not a crazy statement

but only because the Cardinals can’t play a DH and 1B isn’t exactly a position of need on their roster.

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Jul 26, 2009 7:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

I like this one:

A scout’s take on Wallace: “He can hit but he throws like a girl. They acquired a DH — I think he might be Jack Cust Jr. with fewer Ks. (Outfielder Shane) Peterson is the hidden gem!”

From http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9848430/Trade-buzz:-Halladay,-Cabrera-and-more

Umm, Cust with fewer K’s would be a very valuable hitter.

by ozzman99 on Jul 26, 2009 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sounds like Juan Rivera.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jul 26, 2009 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

Cust with more K's would lead the league in HRs.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Jul 26, 2009 4:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

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