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Possible Trade Partners: Giants


The Giants suck.  I just had to get that out of the way, you know as a matter of procedure.  Now on to the fact that they are 42 and 35 in a good position to make the playoffs this year as, despite being 7 games behind the Dodgers, the are the leaders in the NL Wild card.  The Giants haven't been in the playoffs in the post Bonds era and Brian Sabean is widely viewed to be on the hot seat after several bad trades and years of thinking that signing Michael Tucker, Brian Roberts, and Aaron Rowand was the answer.  With the once shinny new ballpark failing to lure people to see a terrible team and the Giants have a narrow window while Lincecum and Cain are cheap, Johnson isn't retired, and Zito doesn't completely fall off of a cliff.

Star-divide

The Giants pitching certainly hasn't been the problem with the 7th most WAR of any staff in the bigs.  The Giant's bats have failed the bullpen that was revamped in the off season and the starters which have always been dangerous.  The Giants are so bad at the plate this year that they even edge out the A's at batting runs below average by .4 runs to be the worst team in the big leagues in that regard.  That is horrible.  They only have 3 players that are more than 1 run above average with the bat (Sandoval, Rowand, Torres).  Their biggest needs are 2b, COF 1b. 

Their 2bmen have combined to be worth 1.6 WAR LESS THAN REPLACEMENT.  This shouts Adam Kennedy to me. AK 47 has no position on the A's now that Ellis has returned and the A's can parlay Joe Dillion (the PTBNL) into a real prospect.  Kennedy hasn't played good defense at 2nd this year but has in the past, so considering him a 0 RAA defensive player.  With his ZIPs rest of the year projection for his wOBA he is about 5.75 runs below average with the bat.  11.67 runs worth of replacement will be awarded based on playing time and 1.45 runs for position.  That means he is worth .73 WAR.  Now the Giants are - 1.6 WAR through 77 games.  At that pace they are -1.73 WAR for the rest of the season.  That means that Adam Kennedy is a 2.4 Win upgrade. Wow.

Unfortunately the market value of a Kennedy is less than a #2/3 big league starter or a slightly above league average starting player, which is basically is the equivalent win value.  But it does give Beane plenty of leverage, especially with the dearth of middle infielders on the market this deadline.  The A's should be able to get any of the non "fantastic 4 prospects" (Bumgarner, Posey, Alderson, Villalona) as Giants fans call them.  The problem is the Giants system while a good one is only 4 prospects deep. Looking at Sickles ratings:

5) Conor Gillaspie, 3B, Grade B-: I like the Midwest guys. Polished bat, will hit for average and get on base, glove needs to be more reliable but I think it will.

6) Henry Sosa, RHP, Grade B-: Good arm, but a bit erratic, can he stay healthy?

7) Nick Noonan, 2B, Grade B-: Strike zone judgment needs work but I like the other skills.

9) Waldis Joaquin, RHP, Grade C+: Fits the tradition of power arms in this organization.

10) Rafael Rodriguez, OF, Grade C+: I have no idea where to rank guys like this. Could be anything from a superstar to a superdud.

11) Jose Casilla, RHP, Grade C+: Another power arm of interest, though a long way away.

12) Clayton Tanner, LHP, Grade C+: I like him as a sleeper for ’09.

14) Scott Barnes, LHP, Grade C+: Intriguing lefty out of St. John’s in the 2008 draft. Good stuff, decent command.

16) Ehire Adrianza, SS, Grade C+: Good scouting reports, good glove, sample size very small. Could rise rapidly in grade in ’09. Other sources will rank him higher.

I don't really find much here exciting or having a  lot sleeper potential.  Conor Gillaspie is hitting less than his polish would indicate, he really has no home run power, is mediocre defensively and while his bat polish should make him a rather fast mover he is still in A+ ball.  Sickles had this to say about him:

Gillaspie is a fairly polished player who should advance quickly up the system. His best attributes are contact hitting ability, strike zone judgment, gap power and a tremendous work ethic. He isn’t likely to be a big home run guy, and his ultimate value will depend on if he’s a .300+ hitter in the majors, or just a .270ish hitter, and at this point we don’t know. His defense at third base is decent but not great. He has a strong arm, and good athleticism, but his range is just average, and he makes more errors than he should. From watching him play in college, I think he can be a solid third baseman with more experience, though he won’t win Gold Gloves

This conflicts with other reports (PG crosschecker) that I have seen questioning his ability to stay at 3rd base due to lack of range, and the video that I have seen showed what I thought was poor range and hands that were anything but baby soft as he made some errors.  On the upside he walks, he walks a lot and it wouldn't be surprising if he supported a huge isolated on base percentage in the .070-.100 levels.  If he becomes the .300 hitter that many suggest he will in the MLB you can deal with a slugging percentage that only has an IsoP of .090 to .100.  If he plays average defense his bat plays, if he doesn't it doesn't.  Due to our positional need he could be targeted in an AK deal.  He has enough warts that he should be available perhaps plus a C arm.

Sosa has a problem staying healthy, hasn't pitched that well in AA and is starting to get old.  We don't really need pitching right now.  Nick Noonan has inspired Utley comparisons, except his defense sucks, hasn't hit this year and he strikes out all the time, so really he is nothing like Utley.  Rafael Rodriguez has a toolshed and just started playing baseball in the US as a 17 year old.  He has high as the sky 5 tool potential, will need lots and lots of time.  The arms are pretty much interchangeable but I do like Tanner, just as Sickles.  Adrianza is someone that scouts dream on and I don't care for do to lack of results.

An honorable mention went to Brandon Crawford who after demolishing A+ in his first year of pro ball is struggling a little bit with the transition to AA. I like him much more than a C rating and better than many on the list above him.  Roger Kieschnick is a left fielder who was the Giants third round pick in 08.  He is demolishing the Cal League in one of the hardest parks to hit in what is usually a launching pad of a league.  According to Baseball America he changed his swing to close some holes that scouts saw in college.  While he is striking out way too much and walking way too little he had very good plate discipline in college, so hopefully that wouldn't be a long term problem.  Thomas Neal was another honorable mention, with light tower power already hitting 15 home runs.  His strike outs aren't that bad considering the power and his walks while not great aren't bad either.  Neal is a little old (22) for High A and his defense in the outfield is suspect so he has been moved to first base, but he may just be figuring out his potential.

Kennedy alone should net a package of Gillaspie plus Tanner/Sosa/Neal,  Crawford/Kieschnick/Rafael Rodriguez plus a throw in arm, or Neal plus Tanner and a better throw in arm than the other packages.  However the Giants might want to expand the trade.

For Holliday, who is needed because Fred Lewis is full of suck this year and projects to be a 1 WAR player.  Tim Alderson would be needed.  Alderson has the potential to be a #2/3 starter in the bigs has plus command and excellent while not elite stuff.  Some have compared him to a right handed Brett Anderson but he has just a touch less stuff.  He is the only one of the fantastic 4 that would be touchable ( I want nothing to do with AnVil even if he is available,  totally agree with Paul Thomas on this one, MadBum and Posey certainly aren't).  For Holliday I think a package with my present grades comprised of Alderson (A-), Kieschnick(C+/B-), and Gillaspie (C/C+) is in between the Sabathia deal and the Teixiera #2 deal.  If you put Kennedy in and picked up some money I think you could get Crawford too.  The end package there would be Alderson (A-), Crawford (C+), Kieschnick (C+/B-), and Gillaspie (C/C+) for Holliday and Kennedy plus salary relief.

Poll
The package of Alderson (A-), Crawford (C+), Kieschnick (C+), and Gillaspie (C/C+) for Holliday and Kennedy plus salary relief as a trade is
A trade I make for the A's
116 votes
Isn't enough
82 votes
Isn't a realistic offer/asking too much.
62 votes

260 votes | Poll has closed

5 recs  |  Comment 138 comments

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I don't do that trade, but I just accidentally voted incorrectly and said "yes"

It’s a decent package, for sure, but I just have a really, REALLY hard time dealing away yet another of our best trade chips without at least addressing the long term need on the left side of the infield.

Oh, and no, I don’t consider Connor Gillaspie a long term solution at 3B any more than people consider Brett Wallace a long term solution at 3B.

"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."

by mikev on Jul 2, 2009 9:34 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I don't even like wallace but Wallace>>>>> Gillaspie

the difference is you can definitely pick up Gillaspie for Adam Kennedy… there is no way that is happening with Wallace.

In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK

by designatedforassignment on Jul 2, 2009 9:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Adam Kennedy is not the main part of that proposed trade, though, once Holliday is brought up.

I mean, I’d probably send Kennedy to SF for Gillaspie and a minor league arm like mentioned above.

But cmon, it’s the Giants. It’s Sabean.

Holliday and Hannahan for Sandoval and Sosa.

"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."

by mikev on Jul 2, 2009 10:12 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't want to come off cross but

I put a ton of work into these posts to come up with reasonable trades that are equitable and realistic. If I wanted trade propsals that were ridiculous fleecings I would have posted a tread like the Does Sabean still like veterans thread below mine. Why would the Giants trade their only above average hitter who fields better than anyone expected at third and can play a premium position for a rental OF and a severely undervalude player who is widely viewed as a AAAA player and two draft picks and a starter prospect with loads of potential. I mean they loose the half of the win upgrade from Holliday this season by trading Sandoval. So essentially youre suggesting the Giants trade a three win a year player under team controll for five more years and a live arm for .5 WAR? I prefer not to make my trade proposals contingent on the other team being run by idiots.

In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK

by designatedforassignment on Jul 2, 2009 10:38 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Come off however the hell you want. It's the internet, you're not gonna offend me or hurt my feelings.

Though, I may suggest you ratchet your sarcasm detector up about three notches.

"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."

by mikev on Jul 2, 2009 10:45 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh. My bad.

Sabeans trades get a way worse rap than they deserve and people generally assume he is a moron (on signings he is) but his trades have been pretty ok. I should have known better than to rake it seriously though.

In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK

by designatedforassignment on Jul 2, 2009 10:59 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, no, I do assume he's a moron - at least when it comes to baseball moves.

The bad far, far, far outweighs the good moves he has made.

"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."

by mikev on Jul 2, 2009 11:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also, for the record, you're doing a hell of a job on these.

"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."

by mikev on Jul 2, 2009 11:03 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

What serioulsy bad moves has he made via trade?

And I’ve got a quite exellent response on the pyzinsky (sp I’m on a iphone at a dance club sorry) trade. His signings suck but his trades and drafting aren’t bad.

In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK

by designatedforassignment on Jul 2, 2009 11:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Whenever you're done dancing,

I’d love to hear your Pierzynski response.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Jul 3, 2009 12:17 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Basically I would have made the trade too.

Nathan was 28 a failed starter who had spent the two years preceeding 2003 in the minors after washing out as a starter. Nathan before 2003 Nathan had walked 6 batters per 9 innings and in 2003 he walked 4 per 9 wich coupled with a lower than league average HR rate and a 60 point lower than league average BAPIP screamed regression. How often do players go from Walking 6 per 9 to walking in the low 2s? Or keep their BAPIP 40 points below league average after getting their career off the ground at 28? Finally unless bullpen arms are ace relievers it is very hard for them to rack up WAR. What happened to Nathan would be the equivelent of us trading Santiago Casilla and having him turn into Mariano Rivera overnight.

Boof Bosner never had a plus pitch didn’t project to be anything more than a 5th starter and hasn’t produced more than 1.6 WAR before shoulder surgery to fix a torn labrum this year..

Liriano was a huge injury risk having had shoulder surgery before turning 20 and his trade. Additionally people were worried that his slider would cause him to blow out his elbow… well guess what they were right. Additionally he had only 1 start in A ball at the time of his trade. He was miles away and hurt at the time of the trade. He did have one elite season with a 4 WAR but hasn’t touched two WAR since though he might make it this year if he’s lucky.

They traded a bunch of question marks for a 3.7 WAR catcher which is elite and does not include defense for which AJ had a strong reputation so he was likely a 4.7 WAR player which is an awesome player. If you assume 10 RAA defensively he would grade out to have been 9.5 WAR in the 3 years SF was suppose to have him under control. Pierzynski is a doucher sure but there was never an indication that he would have problems with his own team before or after his stay with SF so I really think that blaming Sabean for the trouble that he caused is a little too much hind sight.

Anyway… It was an ok trade, people at the time didn’t say OMG what the fuck is Sabean doing, people were pretty stoked about their new allstar catcher.

In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK

by designatedforassignment on Jul 3, 2009 4:17 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks

I wasn’t familiar with these specific players, but that matches my general sense of how most “fleece” trades come about.

Any trade is a gamble. Usually each specific piece is its own gamble. If they all come out right you look like a genius; if they all come out wrong you look like an idiot. Most times it comes out somewhere in between, and you just hope to come out ahead over the long run.

That’s how I feel about the Hudson and Mulder trades. Some gambles are better bets than others, and I’ve seen arguments that the Mulder deal was a better gamble than the Hudson deal right from the start. (There was at least one guy here on AN — grover, I think — who liked the one trade and disliked the other even at the time.)

But even so, it still wasn’t as lopsided as it turned out for either trade. Yes, Mulder was at risk, but we didn’t know he was going to completely fall apart, nor did we know that Hudson wouldn’t. And similarly with Haren vs Meyer.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Jul 3, 2009 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The thing is it looked really bad in 2006

when Liriano/Nathan were dominating and Boof still had promise. Now doesn’t look that bad, more just like a gamble that didn’t pay off but perception of the trade is still in a 2006 mindset.

I hated the Hudson trade. I thought that it wasn’t enough at the time, didn’t like the lack of risk diversification, and I preferred competing offers. I was right on that one, but it wasn’t a terrible trade at the time, just not a good one.

The AJ deal wasn’t even a not good deal at the time it was pretty solid.

In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK

by designatedforassignment on Jul 3, 2009 10:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I say OMG WTF is Sabean doing

because of his repeatedly horrendous signings, not his trades.

"True fact: In a global thermonuclear war, the only human who would survive would be David Eckstein" -PT

by travdog6 on Jul 3, 2009 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Right im there with you 100%

Sabean never met an aging mediocre/poor type A free agent he didn’t like.

In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK

by designatedforassignment on Jul 3, 2009 8:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I like the one where he gave up his first-round draft pick to sign Michael Tucker!

WordUpThome: THE HEY-DAY OF RONALD REAGAN-O-NOMICS IS A FINE TIME FOR BIRTH, NUMA NUMA DANCE STAR JOBA CHAMBERLAIN WAS ALSO BORN IN 1985

by Gallagher's Watermelons on Jul 4, 2009 12:01 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That is my personal favorite. :-)

In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK

by designatedforassignment on Jul 4, 2009 2:38 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Whooooo????

"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden

by Blicks on Jul 4, 2009 7:15 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

"Hey baby..."

“…after I finish responding to this dude on the Athletics Nation blog, want to come back to my place?”

WordUpThome: THE HEY-DAY OF RONALD REAGAN-O-NOMICS IS A FINE TIME FOR BIRTH, NUMA NUMA DANCE STAR JOBA CHAMBERLAIN WAS ALSO BORN IN 1985

by Gallagher's Watermelons on Jul 3, 2009 2:34 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

QOTM and a LOL

They were playing MIA… I know it makes me a bad Indie Kid but hate MIA… hate hate hate… so I took a breather out side and responded. Just got home, she was from out of town and had a hotel room, so no need to use your superfly pick up line there :-P

In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK

by designatedforassignment on Jul 3, 2009 3:46 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

i doubt they trade gillispie

he’s partoftheir SJ team hype machine w/ all those prospects and only his 1st full season. I thnik theyy’d pass of frandsen, velez or some fringe/mlb ready player or a 2ndtier pitcher like sosa/tanner/pucetas as their trade bait for kennedy/reliever. honestly if their top 5-8 prospects are untouchable not much else is interesting

by Asfan4ever723 on Jul 2, 2009 10:28 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

To be honest...

I wouldn’t take anything less than Posey with the Giants.

Which means I would never make a trade with the Giants because they wouldn’t give Posey up. Posey played all 9 positions in college, so I am not too worried about him converting to 3b, or most likely rf.

I still don’t understand why we would want another young pitcher. We have plenty, at this rate in two years we may have the best pitching staff in the league, but we won’t score a single run.

by JamesCaprio on Jul 2, 2009 10:23 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

You can never have enough pitching, especially starting pitching...

…if we can get 10 starters in the system ready to go at the same time, we have the luxury of surviving if some go down with long-term injuries (see Duchchcschschshchcerererer, Outman, DLS, and everyone’s favorite, Rich Harden), some don’t live up to expectations (see Gio, Eveland, Windsor, Komine, and, to this point, Gallagher), and we use others as trade chips to obtain the offense that we seem to be unable to develop in our own system. If we had a huge surplus of this most valuable of all commodities in MLB, we can always trade from a position of strength. More quality pitching can never be a bad thing.

by kitoko on Jul 2, 2009 10:34 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I just googled Harden

…Oh and don’t mention Harden, cuz every time you do, i have to break a puppies neck.

But anyways, this was the first thing i found:

"if gio would of ptched,he would of pitched shoot outs." - MR.OAKLAND

"Anyone who calls themselves the Angels Angels should have to start over and ride the short bus." -timmeh from McCovey Chronicles

by Cheezombie on Jul 2, 2009 10:45 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

snap

he warned you

PREPAREDNESS_Because those goddamn zombies aren’t going to kill themselves

by adragon on Jul 3, 2009 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Love posey almost as much as weiters but still

The Giants could offer a ton of players that would make their package the best without including Posey. Just like with the Haren deal, didn’t include drew upton or young and still turned out well. The I must have one top 10 prospects in all of baseball meme that people have been spouting is silly. First those players are almost never traded. Secondly, diversifying risk is almost always better due to the ridiculous bust rate of even the best baseball prospects.

In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK

by designatedforassignment on Jul 2, 2009 10:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I, for one, am rooting for Giambi to go on a huge HR streak...

…so we can ship his useless ass to some dumbshit team like the Gnats before the inevitable suckitude returns…

by kitoko on Jul 2, 2009 10:24 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I thought about that

But Ishikawa is out of options if Irc and the rigors of being an every day first baseman due to the lack of a dh in the nl would probably be coupled with his suckitude this year presents too much risk for a NL team

In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK

by designatedforassignment on Jul 2, 2009 10:43 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm hoping Giambi goes on a huge HR streak

so we can start winning some games.

Some motherfcukers are always trying to ice skate uphill - Blade.

by OldhamA on Jul 3, 2009 2:52 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why bother winning?

We’re not making the playoffs so why should we hurt our draft position. The reason you can’t reload forever is that you keep drafting at the bottom of the draft. This (hopefully) is the last year we suck for a long time so how about we stop dicking around with veterans who may marginally increase our ability to screw ourselves out of position to draft a true impact player next year while at the same time preventing us from assesing players like Buck Cunningham and Gio and see if the MLB suckitude they have contributed so far is what we can expect from them going forward.

In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK

by designatedforassignment on Jul 3, 2009 3:06 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Because I watch A's baseball for them to win, not for how good they

potentially will be in 3 years time because of their prospects.

Some motherfcukers are always trying to ice skate uphill - Blade.

by OldhamA on Jul 3, 2009 7:46 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hey wait!

You’re leaving the herd??!! ;)

by Streams Of Whiskey on Jul 3, 2009 8:59 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe this makes me weird... but I love to watch the construction of a team

I would love to make the playoffs but if we aren’t I want to see young kids and AAAA players at every position to try to find that diamond in the ruff.

In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK

by designatedforassignment on Jul 3, 2009 10:09 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ugh, this is the sort of talk that drives me crazy.

Yes, yes, I know you sometimes trade the present for the future. I get that. And when people say we should let go of the no-future veterans and play the young guys even if it means less wins, I get that, too.

But when you come in here and say, “Why bother winning? We’re not going to make the playoffs anyway, so we may as well get a better draft pick,” then all the rest of us who enjoy the game more than the meta-game just want to smack you upside the head and say, “shut up about the fucking draft and enjoy a game for a change.”

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Jul 3, 2009 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thats fair. I love baseball's meta game. Some don't

I also love me some beer hotdogs and the Coli and watching the A’s win. Thinking about the Meta game has helped me not have a shitty day every day the A’s lose. Im just saying the difference between Smoak and Weeks was 1 pointless win. Im not saying throw the games but I am saying that losing in the long run can help your team compared to being just below mediocre.

In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK

by designatedforassignment on Jul 3, 2009 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

and when certain veterans are below replacement level

and blocking young guys or guys who the A’s need to see what they can do, they definitely deserve immediate release

"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden

by Blicks on Jul 3, 2009 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I like both.

But if I had to choose between them, I’d go with the daily games.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Jul 3, 2009 4:21 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Being a poor college NRAF made the dialy games part rather impossible

so the meta took over for me. This is why I love the Out of the Park baseball simulator. Great game.

In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK

by designatedforassignment on Jul 3, 2009 5:28 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I pay $15/year for MLB audio

Never see the video unless the A’s are playing the Mariners.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Jul 3, 2009 6:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

MLB radio doesn't work on linux computers

and my schools firewall blocked it. I was forced to listen to the M’s radio far more than anyone should (just thinking about it makes me pine for Ken Korach) and rarely got to watch them on TV when they played the M’s. I watch the games on gameday. Are you in the PNW?

In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK

by designatedforassignment on Jul 3, 2009 10:17 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes. Was in Seattle,

then Shoreline, now Lynnwood. I keep creeping northward.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Jul 3, 2009 11:58 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ah... I was in Oregon.

So you know the terror that is the Mariners broadcast team well?

In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK

by designatedforassignment on Jul 4, 2009 2:38 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

A little bit, but not well.

I rarely listen to M’s games unless they’re playing the A’s.

It really is true that Dave Niehaus used to be good, but like Jason Giambi he’s no longer what he used to be. Locals remember the good days and love him for it, sort of like Oaklanders continued to swear Bill King was the greatest in spite of his obvious decline in the last couple years.

I like Mike Blowers, too, though I know many don’t.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Jul 4, 2009 3:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

About that 1 pointless win

It’s not fair to put a value on it in hindsight. You have to figure what its expected value was at the time.

The value of advancing one spot in the draft can vary considerably. Yes, the difference between #11 and #12 in 2008 was pretty big, since it turned out to be Smoak vs Weeks, but typically a move of one slot in the middle of the round is not so dramatic. For example, if it were the difference between #12 and #13, or even #12 to #14, it probably would have made no difference at all, since no one else was taking Weeks that high and we’d have got him regardless. Similarly, the difference between #9 and #10 was probably zero since the A’s would have taken Smoak at #9 (and probably even earlier).

When the games were being lost at the end of the 2007 season, there was no way to tell exactly what the one spot would mean. Even if it were predictable that it was the difference between #11 and #12, you still wouldn’t know that would mean the difference of not getting Smoak. As I recall, he wasn’t really expected to fall as low as #11, and if the higher up teams had played out a little differently he may well not have.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Jul 3, 2009 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Looking at the standings on the last day of the regular season...

they would have known that if they won and Texas lost they would lose at least one place in the draft. Now, Im not saying that consistently the difference between Smoak and Weeks but I am saying that drafting even 1 spot higher is never ever a bad thing, and produces some value What value was created by winning that last game?

In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK

by designatedforassignment on Jul 3, 2009 5:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The win doesn't "create" value. It *is* value.

Why do you want to get better draft picks anyway? So you can have a better team, so you can win more games.

Now if you’re arguing that moving up one slot will be worth more in future games than the one game right now, OK, that’s something that we could debate; but you’re trying to say the win now has no value, and that’s just silly. Wins are the very measure of value.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Jul 3, 2009 6:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just curious

But, you say above that pick 13 doesn’t have any value over 14 (I’m assuming strictly in this year’s draft), but, assuming the team ahead of you is 10 games up and you’re 70-92, does win 71 really have any value over 70?

CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."

by DMOAS on Jul 3, 2009 9:19 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, because a win is a win.

I follow the games. I enjoy a win more than a loss.

For me, at least, total wins is ultimately what you’re looking for. The only reason to want higher draft picks is so you can get better players and, hopefully, win more games somewhere down the line.

It doesn’t matter if the win “matters”. Finishing 2-160 is better than finishing 1-161. 161-1 is better than 160-2. 71-91 is better than 70-92. Regardless of how any other team scores.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Jul 3, 2009 9:41 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

but is finishing 2-160 worth losing Strausberg to the Nats

because we all know they won’t win more than one game. :-P

In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK

by designatedforassignment on Jul 3, 2009 9:43 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fair enough

Okay. Try this situation. Say one loss now, giving you one pick up in the next draft, lead to us getting an impact player that in 2 or 3 years resulted in say, 5-10 wins per year more than anyone else that we may have picked up to fill the hole because we didn’t get him in the draft. Would the loss now then be worth it?

CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."

by DMOAS on Jul 3, 2009 11:21 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

There does come a point at which a loss now

is worth it for wins later, yes.

Evaluating exactly where that tradeoff point is — including all the problems of projecting the future — is a complicated problem, and I’m glad it’s not my job to figure out.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Jul 4, 2009 12:02 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think it's a difference between watching an individual game and viewing the entire season as a whole for me

When i watch a game, regardless of the standings, I want the A’s to win. But if we have no real shot at the playoffs, then in the context of looking at the season as a whole, when they lose, I’m cool with it. A big losing streak still sucks in the context having to watch a game where you want them to win while you agonize over them losing. But seeing the streak in the context of moving up a slot in next year’s draft is the only thing that makes it tolerable to me.

CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."

by DMOAS on Jul 3, 2009 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yep.

Back then, my idol was Bugs Bunny, because I saw a cartoon of him playing ball - you know, the one where he plays every position himself with nobody else on the field but him? Now that I think of it, Bugs is still my idol. You have to love a ballplayer like that.
~Nomar Garciaparra

by UncleLeo on Jul 3, 2009 4:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

because losing sucks balls

You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}

by micdog2001 on Jul 3, 2009 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I like this proposal far better than Ludwick/Motte/Jay from Stl

But I think it’s far far more than what the Giants are going to be willing to pay. I think you’re overstating Adam Kennedy’s value a bit (as in I think the A’s would be lucky to get Gillaspie alone for him rather than Gillaspie+). But who knows, like you stated, Kennedy is a clear upgrade even if he continues regressing and the Giants may just be that desperate. And while I’m not high on Gillaspie (bat doesn’t translate well for third or first), Crawford, Neal, and Kieschnick can all hit pretty freaking well. And Tim Alderson is a stud, who doesn’t get enough credit cause people often lump him (and compare him unfavorably) with MadBum. Honestly, if the trade is Holliday + Kennedy for Alderson, Crawford, Neal/Kieshcnick, I’d take it in a heartbeat.

Anyways, thanks for taking the time to do this series.

"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."

by lenscrafters on Jul 3, 2009 12:10 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

This one is the best trade proposal yet

I wish the A’s could get a premier bat, but I still probably do the deal mentioned (although I try to add R Rodriguez). This is exactly the type of deal I could see actually happening. I won’t be ecstatic but I will be satisfied with it (kinda my feelings on the Holliday trade to begin with).

"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton

by vignette17 on Jul 3, 2009 12:52 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Kennedy yes, Holliday...maybe?

The possible return for Holliday from the Giants strikes me as better than the one from the Cardinals, but it doesn’t seem like the kind of deal that you do before seeing what other teams will offer.

As for Kennedy he’s basically house money at this point. Anything the A’s can get for him, even if it’s a 3B-who-might-not-be-a-3B like Gillaspie, should be considered a good deal and if the Giants want to throw in another player then so much the better.

Another good fanpost, dfa.
(One small correction, I think you mean Dave Roberts and not Brian up above.)

There is no gravity - the earth just sucks.

by JLeverenz on Jul 3, 2009 6:06 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Sabean factor

  The problem with sabean is he is very stubborn to trade prospects. Kennedy is the perfect fit for the giants. Just add Lewis to the trade proposal since he has fallen out of favor with the giants and could be a platoon leadoff guy for the A’s.

by Arcman on Jul 3, 2009 7:02 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Lewis is a perfect buy-low guy right now.

Well, he is if you think he can return to his 2008 numbers. I, for one, think he can.

by cityplANner on Jul 3, 2009 9:51 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not really... He is old and cant play CF well

He essentially is a 28 year old Ryan Sweeney.

In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK

by designatedforassignment on Jul 3, 2009 10:05 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, seriously

If Fred Lewis comes over in trade, I might weep a little bit.

by bobnothing on Jul 3, 2009 10:09 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No CFer

  He is a poor mans Sweeney. Only hits right handed pitching but is only a corner outfielder. Sweeney has a little more power and much better defensively so Lewis would be a 4th outfielder to PH against right handers.

by Arcman on Jul 3, 2009 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Again, good work

Talk about Kennedy for someone all you want, but don’t over-rate Alderson. He’s not anywhere near “a right-handed Anderson with a touch less stuff” unless the whoever doing the touching competes in MMA. Alderson’s fastball runs 89-90… Anderson can hit 97.

Alderson has a good breaking ball and control but an average fastball. He’s got a 6.77 K/9 in AA, which is well below what Cahill and Anderson posted in in the minors last year. 6.77 is very close to what Mazzaro posted last year in AA, but Alderson has nowhere near the groundball tendencies.

If you think Alderson is going to grow into more velocity then maybe the comparison to Anderson hold some value, but to me he’s looking like he has the same upside as James Simmons… that of a maybe #3, probable #4 SP.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Jul 3, 2009 7:29 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

he's a better strike-thrower than Cahill, though

A “K’s per 9” comparison between Cahill and Alderson’s minor league numbers is unfair toward Alderson and deceptive. K’s per nine is inflated for guys who allow more baserunners, because they face more hitters per inning and have more opportunities to strike people out.

Cahill had 8 K’s per nine last year because…he walked a hell of a lot more people (4.6 per nine) than Alderson has. I’d say Alderson’s ratio of 1.6 walks per nine to 6.7 K’s per nine looks pretty good stacked up against Cahill’s AA season.

Not in reply to g, but just a generally thought about trading with the Giants…

I personally no longer think Alderson is “gettable” in a trade with the Giants for Holliday. We talked about this in echerrst’s diary last week…Giants fans howled at that proposal. Their system is so thin after that big four…in a year, when Alderson and Bumgarner are ready, Randy Johnson will be done and Cain will be very expensive – either trade bait, or on his way toward free agency. They’ll need AlderBum to replace them, because there’s no one close on the horizon.

Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.

by notsellingjeans on Jul 3, 2009 9:13 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Seems like Ks per PA

would be a much better stat to use in evaluating pitchers.

CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."

by DMOAS on Jul 3, 2009 9:45 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah, i agree

a little bit harder to calculate though, I guess.

I read a cool article on baseballanalysts.com earlier this year in which the author did just that. I think his category was “strikeouts per 100 pitches”, and when you saw his list of the top guys, it ended up being a very good proxy for overall pitching dominance.

Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.

by notsellingjeans on Jul 3, 2009 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It would make sense

Though, even per 100 has the flaw of weighting longer ABs against the pitcher, which is fair in the respect that if you’re more efficient you’re numbers will look better, though has the potential for to look like the K/9 with with less eschewing. PA can be calculate the same way hitters PAs are counted only on the pitching side. Now, what would ultimately show as “good” would be difficult without more analysis.

CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."

by DMOAS on Jul 3, 2009 12:50 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting

I never really thought about that

"if gio would of ptched,he would of pitched shoot outs." - MR.OAKLAND

"Anyone who calls themselves the Angels Angels should have to start over and ride the short bus." -timmeh from McCovey Chronicles

by Cheezombie on Jul 3, 2009 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don't agree with that logic

They still only get three outs per inning. Having more guys on base just means they took longer to get their three outs. If pitcher A goes 1/2/3 and gets one K, and pitcher B goes out/walk/out/walk/out, the extra batters he faced are the guys that WALKED; besides those batters, he faced the same number of hitters.

The correlation between guys with high BB/9 numbers and high K/9 numbers is usually because the pitcher has great stuff but can’t control it. Alderson CAN control his stuff, but it’s not as good as a lot of other pitchers.

WordUpThome: THE HEY-DAY OF RONALD REAGAN-O-NOMICS IS A FINE TIME FOR BIRTH, NUMA NUMA DANCE STAR JOBA CHAMBERLAIN WAS ALSO BORN IN 1985

by Gallagher's Watermelons on Jul 3, 2009 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think you underrate Alderson

Until very recently Anderson never exhibited the makings of a plus fast ball, a pitch that routinely sat 88-92 in the minors and ticked up just a bit last year before gaining a ton of velocity this year which was unexpected. From his draft profile

Alderson’s fastball sits in the 89-93 mph range and grades out as a solid-average to a tick above-average pitch.
Sickles gave him a borderline A- grade, which is only slightly less than he gave Cahill/Anderson.

In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK

by designatedforassignment on Jul 3, 2009 9:55 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not under-rating Alderson, I just have up to date info

There are so many things wrong with this comment that I’m going to ask you to e-mail me. My address is in my bio.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Jul 3, 2009 6:13 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Another good diary.

Why can’t we get one of the four “untouchables,” though? If we have to sweeten the pot, fine, but the very essence of a deal the Giants make involving Holliday is to mortgage the future a bit for a chance to win now.

Perception is 100% of reality—someone out there is going to be willing to overpay a bit if they perceive Holliday to be the solution for winning now. The Giants, Cards, and perhaps others all have interest in Holliday. It should be made very clear to them that Holliday is available, but if you want him, it’s gonna cost you. One of them will bite the bullet if enough teams are in on him.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Jul 3, 2009 7:45 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Um I gave you one of the four in Alderson

Which I think is going out on a limb a bit to suggest that is realistic.

Alderson (A-), Crawford (C+), Kieschnick (C+), and Gillaspie (C/C+) is probably less likely than Fmart/Flores/Mejia and C+/Matt Spencer type throw in or two of Murphy/Tejada/Havens/Marte/Holt/Parnell plus a C+ throw in and significantly less likely that Ludwick, Motte, Jones/Jay.

In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK

by designatedforassignment on Jul 3, 2009 10:04 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry, didn't follow that.

I’m wondering how untouchable one of their top pitching prospects really might be, given how great their organizational strength is in that area. Plus, they have the resources to add one in free agency down the road.

What I was trying to point out is that most GMs don’t sit at their desk with a calculator computing RAR before pulling the trigger on a deadline deal. Orlando Cabrera is a good example. By any reasonable statistical measure, he’s been the worst starting shortstop in the American League this year, by an order of magnitude. Yet, he might be a viable piece of a package Oakland offered someone, because his reputation exceeds his results.

In other words, a trade doesn’t have to be statistically viable to be realistic.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Jul 3, 2009 12:49 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think most teams do, essentially,

have someone on the staff who “computes” RAR. Maybe not by the exact formula used on some stats site, but definitely with an awareness of basic sabermetric principles. That information finds its way to the GM and is part of the background information when he’s making decisions.

I’m sure this process is more formalized in some organizations than others, but I don’t think any GM is completely unaware of basic RAR-like evaluation of the main players being discussed for trade.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Jul 3, 2009 4:41 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Except maybe Amaro and the Phillies

Amaro doesn’t “believe in advanced statistical analysis” or something of that irk.

(i’m kidding, btw)

"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden

by Blicks on Jul 3, 2009 7:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

LOL

In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK

by designatedforassignment on Jul 3, 2009 9:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I guess what Im saying is that Alderson is involved in the trade

Also the organizations’ strength in pitching is rather illusory. They have two dynamite prospects in MadBum and Alderson (due to his low floor), but their big league rotation is going to get super expensive really quick as Lincecum should be eligible for super 2 status and Cain is going to be arby eligible, and they will have to replace Johnson (retirement) and possibly Sanchez (suckitude) next year. The rest of their pitching prospects are live wild card arms that are either injured, cant find the strike zone, or both.

I totally agree that trade value and statistical value are not equal things. You couldn’t trade a healthy Mark Ellis straight up for Ryan Howard for example. But Im not asking the world for AK and in fact im asking for significantly less than DeRosa got for Cleveland (assuming Jess Todd is the PTBNL).

In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK

by designatedforassignment on Jul 3, 2009 9:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

If Sabean sells Sanchez for pennies on the dollar, he's a moron.

His ERA should be in the mid-upper 4s, but high BABIP and a low LOB% have routinely screwed him. . FIP has him at a 4.54 on the year.

And its not like hitters are hitting the ball hard off him, as his LD% this year is rather low.

Same story goes for last year.

Sanchez has been the team’s 3rd best pitcher, behind only Lincecum and Cain. But I agree with you that the Giants’ strength in pitching is rather smoke and mirrors. I love Zito, but he is the weakest link.

"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden

by Blicks on Jul 4, 2009 8:03 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

What I heard

  The Giants VP was on KNBR the other day and was saying Alderson is close to untouchable. When they pressed him for information it sounded like the Giants has a wait and see attitude because he said this year there are many teams in the playoff hunt right now. I don’t see any moves with them until the end of July unless the Dodgers take off.

by Arcman on Jul 3, 2009 10:05 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I have a hard time making a Holliday deal work without Alderson

I guess I could have a 6 C+ prospect package Gillaspie, Tanner, Neal, Crawford, Kieschnick, and Rafael Rodriguez for Holliday. The problem with that is it completely guts the Giants farm depth to the point where I don’t think they make that deal. This isn’t Arizona’s system, I don’t think they can get away with saving the fantastic 4 and acquire the bat they need. However it may be likely that they wish to part with AnVil who I DO NOT WANT rather than Alderson, which would require getting a third party involved.

In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK

by designatedforassignment on Jul 3, 2009 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Minor trades only

  I don’t see the giants willing to make a major trade for a established hitter unless its to pick up a player that is a salary dump. Kennedy should be a top priority of theirs for one of those prospects but does Sabean have the guts to do it.

by Arcman on Jul 3, 2009 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, agree 100%

the gnats can’t afford to part with any good prospects. If they did get a bat, it would not be a big one. And it would be for a salary dump.

I don't always blog. But when I do, I prefer AN. Stay thirsty my friends.

by Kallus on Jul 4, 2009 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Kennedy for Gillaspie, Tanner, Kieschnick, or Neal

Sounds good

WordUpThome: THE HEY-DAY OF RONALD REAGAN-O-NOMICS IS A FINE TIME FOR BIRTH, NUMA NUMA DANCE STAR JOBA CHAMBERLAIN WAS ALSO BORN IN 1985

by Gallagher's Watermelons on Jul 4, 2009 6:46 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would take Kieschnick if I was Beane.

In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK

by designatedforassignment on Jul 4, 2009 7:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Holliday, Kennedy, Springer and $$$ for Posey and Gillaspie

BOOM

WordUpThome: THE HEY-DAY OF RONALD REAGAN-O-NOMICS IS A FINE TIME FOR BIRTH, NUMA NUMA DANCE STAR JOBA CHAMBERLAIN WAS ALSO BORN IN 1985

by Gallagher's Watermelons on Jul 3, 2009 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

If I was the Giants I would turn that deal down even if you only asked for Posey

In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK

by designatedforassignment on Jul 3, 2009 5:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, But in this instance, Gallagher's Watermelons gets to be the Giants and so we get a great deal!

"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"

by Eastbayjim on Jul 3, 2009 7:15 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

In no fucking way am I going to be the Giants

I’d rather be the Red Sox.

WordUpThome: THE HEY-DAY OF RONALD REAGAN-O-NOMICS IS A FINE TIME FOR BIRTH, NUMA NUMA DANCE STAR JOBA CHAMBERLAIN WAS ALSO BORN IN 1985

by Gallagher's Watermelons on Jul 4, 2009 12:05 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ionno... shooting yourself seems like a more viable third option.

In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK

by designatedforassignment on Jul 4, 2009 2:39 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly

Of course if me being the Giants’ GM for a day meant I could trade all the good prospects to the A’s, I’d bite the bullet.

Posey, Villalona, Sandoval, Bumgarner, Alderson, and filler for Holliday sounds fair.

WordUpThome: THE HEY-DAY OF RONALD REAGAN-O-NOMICS IS A FINE TIME FOR BIRTH, NUMA NUMA DANCE STAR JOBA CHAMBERLAIN WAS ALSO BORN IN 1985

by Gallagher's Watermelons on Jul 4, 2009 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sure.

Give us Pedroia and Youkilis.

And remove Papelbon from the game of baseball.

"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden

by Blicks on Jul 4, 2009 7:17 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Done and done.

We had to give up Hannahan and Crosby to get that haul though.

WordUpThome: THE HEY-DAY OF RONALD REAGAN-O-NOMICS IS A FINE TIME FOR BIRTH, NUMA NUMA DANCE STAR JOBA CHAMBERLAIN WAS ALSO BORN IN 1985

by Gallagher's Watermelons on Jul 4, 2009 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I just don't want the A's to trade with the Giants

It seems like they have a worse time grooming young position players than the A’s do. I know pitching wins championships but I really would like mostly position players back in any trade involving Holliday.

I also think a fringe contender like the Giants won’t give a lot up for a possible rental like Holliday. I would think a team with better hopes of the postseason would give back a better value.

Also, Kennedy might not be that great of a trade chip except for a team like the Giants who don’t have anything better. I guess that was already said in the post so +1 to all who said that.

You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}

by micdog2001 on Jul 3, 2009 12:07 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Seemingly everybody wants a very good left-side infield prospect for Holliday...

But if that isn’t there, I’d rather have yet another very good SP prospect. You can never have too many of those. You can always trade away the excess, because every team needs pitching. Not every team needs an LF upgrade (Holliday), but every team could use yet another frontline starter (Sabathia).
I think that’s reflected in the type of trade package that Holliday vs. Sabathia will garner too, unfortunately.
So if the best player the A’s can get in return is an SP prospect, I’d say do it.

I don’t either player is available, but if the A’s could get either Alderson or Wallace in return for Holliday, and we were certain that Wallace can’t play third, I’d rather have Alderson, even knowing that the A’s don’t have enough hitters.

Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.

by notsellingjeans on Jul 3, 2009 12:46 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

and I don't think a very good left-side infield prospect is there.

I think the left-side of the infield crop is pretty mediocre across the entire minor leagues. The next David Wright, A-Rod, Longoria, Adrian Beltre when healthy, Eric Chavez in 2001, etc. isn’t there, IMO.

You have a group of prospects that you could trade for who have offensive or defensive question marks, and probably have a ceiling of being the 10th-best at their position, or league-averageish.

Obviously I can’t prove that and it’s kind of a worthless, throwaway statement, given how much prospects can change in 2-3 years. But when I look at 3b and ss league wide in the minor leagues, that’s what I see. And that’s why I’m content to get a good SP prospect back as the haul, if that’s the only prospect available that profiles as an above-average major leaguer.

Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.

by notsellingjeans on Jul 3, 2009 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree completely with your view of the non 1rst base INF prospects MiLB wide

Every non 1b INF prospect from the Minorleagueball community top 150. I put a bust tag on those that I think are very very likely to bust, and noted a position move if they have to leave the INF and move to OF or 1b.

11. MIKE MOUSTAKAS – 3B (Kansas City)
13. PEDRO ALVAREZ – 3B (Pittsburgh) – BUST
24. ELVIS ANDRUS – SS (Texas)
29. TIM BECKHAM – SS (Tampa Bay)
35. BRETT WALLACE – 3B (St. Louis) – Will be moved to 1b
43. JOSH VITTERS – 3B (Chicago-NL) – BUST – Howie Kendrick 2.0 if things work out
47. GORDON BECKHAM – SS (Chicago-AL)
49. ALCIDES ESCOBAR – SS (Milwaukee)
52. CARLOS TRIUNFEL – SS (Seattle) – BUST/Will be moved to OF/1b
57. ADRIAN CARDENAS – SS (Oakland)
58. REID BRIGNAC – SS (Tampa Bay)
62. WILMER FLORES – SS (New York-NL) Could be moved to 1b eventually
86. JASON DONALD – SS (Philadelphia) – BUST
92. NEFTALI SOTO – 3B (Cincinnati) Will be moved to OF/1b
94. TODD FRAZIER – SS/3B (Cincinnati) Has been moved to OF
102. IVAN DEJESUS – 2B (Los Angeles-NL)
108. NICK NOONAN – 2B (San Francisco) BUST
110. CHRIS COGHLAN – 2B (Florida)
114. JEMILE WEEKS – 2B (Oakland)
123. CONOR GILLASPIE – 3B (San Francisco) – Probably BUST
133. MATT ANTONELLI – 2B (San Diego) – BUST
137. JEFRY MARTE – 3B (New York – NL) – BUST
146. CHRIS VALAIKA – SS (Cincinatti)

Essentially the list is full of prospects I expect to bust hard and players in the low minors. There isn’t an impact MLB ready 3bman in all of the minors. There are only 3 impact MLB ready SSs and I don’t think Texas is trading Andrus, Chicago is trading Beckham, or Milwaukee is trading Escobar. It just isn’t going to happen folks. That being said I love Reese Havens of the Mets and think we should go after him.

In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK

by designatedforassignment on Jul 3, 2009 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You think Josh Vitters is "very likely to bust?

Why do you say that, out of curiousity?

11. MIKE MOUSTAKAS – 3B (Kansas City) – may be moved to 1B or the OF, reeeally does not have the glove to play SS

58. REID BRIGNAC – SS (Tampa Bay) – BUST

110. CHRIS COGHLAN – 2B (Florida) – Moved to OF. In favor of Emilio Bonifacio

"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden

by Blicks on Jul 3, 2009 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 110

Do we need to add “DOOMED BY GROSS USER ERROR” to the “BUST” and “MOVE” options.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Jul 3, 2009 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, I think we do.

"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden

by Blicks on Jul 3, 2009 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK

by designatedforassignment on Jul 3, 2009 9:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Several reasons

With the exception of one month this year he hasn’t hit well. In that month he had .754 slug with a LD rate ( i know that MLB LD rates are suspect) of 10% and a HR to FB % of 21% which just seems flukey to me. In 40 more AB in April/June than May he hit 1/4 the home runs he had in May. His defense is suspect and may have to move to 1rst. Also he has 2x as many HR as walks… and that just doesn’t work when you move up the ladder. And he has a massive platoon split.

In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK

by designatedforassignment on Jul 3, 2009 10:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

They are also moving Gaby Sanchez to 3b so Coghlan might just be really Fked

In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK

by designatedforassignment on Jul 3, 2009 10:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

What is the logic behind your BUST list?

I expect Pedro Alvarez and Conor Gillaspie to not bust; I like both. But this is a pretty bad list.

I thought Ivan DeJesus was a SS…

WordUpThome: THE HEY-DAY OF RONALD REAGAN-O-NOMICS IS A FINE TIME FOR BIRTH, NUMA NUMA DANCE STAR JOBA CHAMBERLAIN WAS ALSO BORN IN 1985

by Gallagher's Watermelons on Jul 3, 2009 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bad list

Meaning the players on it are bad, not that your evaluation of their potential is bad. :|

WordUpThome: THE HEY-DAY OF RONALD REAGAN-O-NOMICS IS A FINE TIME FOR BIRTH, NUMA NUMA DANCE STAR JOBA CHAMBERLAIN WAS ALSO BORN IN 1985

by Gallagher's Watermelons on Jul 3, 2009 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

DeJesus was moved off position, I think.

Either way, he’s out for the season.

And, the list DFA used was here.

It was voted on by the minorleagueball.com community, and John Sickels said that overall, it wasn’t a markedly worse list than other prospect lists.

I think Gillaspie is major bust risk because he’s in A+ ball right now, is sporting a 99 wOBA+, and needs a .321 BABIP to maintain a .732 OPS and .275 BA. And he’s only hitting 17.9% line drives, which means he’s getting lucky with that BABIP, and not that he’s running hard.

"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden

by Blicks on Jul 3, 2009 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pedro Alvarez hasn't hit since his wrist injury and lost all semblence of plate discipline and defense

Cant hit anymore plus cant defend makes Pittsburg sad they spent 6m on him.

Blicks does a good job with Gillaspie. If you are a polished college line drive hitter with no power and a suspect glove you better be able to hit for average in High FRICKIN A

In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK

by designatedforassignment on Jul 3, 2009 10:09 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Alvarez is definitely a MOVE

The 107 wOBA+ in A+ is not good for a prospect who has such power upside. And, the LD% is awful, even in A+ and AA. HR/FB is good on him though. BABIP didn’t like him at either level, but the lack of line drives probably influenced that as well. He’s a mixed bag.

I wouldn’t call him as much of a “bust” risk as much as the guys you labeled as bust though.

Alvarez is a near lock for MOVE though. He’s getting rather pudgy and I don’t think his glove or his body plays at 3B.

"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden

by Blicks on Jul 4, 2009 7:41 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

A TTO hitting 1Bman looks like his most likely outcome IMO.

"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden

by Blicks on Jul 4, 2009 7:42 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

we all know that the A's need offense, and need left side infielders

but I think that the same general rule should apply to trades as to the draft; in other words, get the best players available….and of course starting pitching is always valuable.

By the way, I’m enjoying the “possible trading partners” series of posts.

by OaklandSi on Jul 3, 2009 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure the general rules apply to trading as they do drafting

In drafting, you’re looking as far 5 years ahead, so the best available player is likely to be needed at some point by then assuming they pan out. In trading, you’re looking at a shorter time frame, if not immediate. The higher up in the minors they are, the more you look at filling your needs. The lower down the more leeway you have. Having said that, you can never have too much good pitching and in a case like this where our immediate needs aren’t serviceable by trade, you don’t want to sacrifice your trade chip for a watered down version what you need. In that case, best available player is the best option since you can always move him at a later date when what you need becomes available.

CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."

by DMOAS on Jul 3, 2009 2:15 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

that's true

although if you trade away a major league player for prospects that sounds more like filling longer term needs.

by OaklandSi on Jul 3, 2009 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

Usually that’s the case. It was definitely the case for the Haren trade. In this case, we need to look primarily at a year or two first. If we can’t fit our needs for within that time frame (which I doubt we can) then we’re definitely looking at the 3/5 year mark, in which case we’re back to best possible as you said.

CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."

by DMOAS on Jul 3, 2009 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

exactly!!!, totally agree here.

The market is also turning against the all slugging, 1B/DH types. I think a lot of teams are realizing that 1B/DH types were heavily, heavily over valued for their offensive abilities. If Wallace is a 1Bman, that tanks his value, because then he isn’t a better prospect than Chris Carter, Freddie Freeman, et al.

Also, due to the dearth of 3B/SS/2B prospects in MLB, I assume that these guys will also be overvalued by their respective organizations since so many teams need them right now.

And, young pitching is still, and will still be, the most valued commodity in MLB. Get some more.

"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden

by Blicks on Jul 3, 2009 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Great post on AK..

I don’t think the Gnats will continue with Downs if their playoff push continues, so AK is a very viable option. However, I think they are in a wait and see mode with Holliday….why you ask? Because if Lewis continues his suckitude in the outfield, I think they’ll seriously think about DFAing him since he’ll be out of options. Problem is, they have a replacement down in AAA with John BOwker who is tearing it up at a .355 clip w/ 12 HRs. So, if the Gnats go w/ Holliday, a roster move must be imminent….otherwise i don’t think they’re going to do it….

"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."

"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff

"Joe Morgan's going to think Beane wrote the movie too..." -whitshoes40

"What am I going to do, seriously? Maybe be a bouncer at strip joints. That's about all I'm qualified to do." -Giambi

by ST on Jul 3, 2009 9:26 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Put Bowker in LF?

Absolute destruction defensively. That’s almost the equivalent of putting Jason Giambi in LF.

Any improvement he is over Lewis with the bat he gives back with the glove.

"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden

by Blicks on Jul 4, 2009 7:54 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Is he really that bad a defender?

He’s been an outfielder his entire career until last year.

LOL remember when Giambi used to play LF at the beginning of his career?

WordUpThome: THE HEY-DAY OF RONALD REAGAN-O-NOMICS IS A FINE TIME FOR BIRTH, NUMA NUMA DANCE STAR JOBA CHAMBERLAIN WAS ALSO BORN IN 1985

by Gallagher's Watermelons on Jul 4, 2009 1:09 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

They just sent Downs

down.

WordUpThome: THE HEY-DAY OF RONALD REAGAN-O-NOMICS IS A FINE TIME FOR BIRTH, NUMA NUMA DANCE STAR JOBA CHAMBERLAIN WAS ALSO BORN IN 1985

by Gallagher's Watermelons on Jul 4, 2009 1:09 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

looks like giants have interest in pirates players

freddy sanchez
adam laroche

both are free agents next yr so they would be possible rentals too

by Asfan4ever723 on Jul 5, 2009 12:09 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I don't think this trade would go through

but hell anything is possible with bill beane

No one goes there anymore, it's too crowded. - Yogi Berra

by trademan56 on Jul 5, 2009 1:38 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Giants fans perspective

I don’t think your trade scenarios are very realistic. I can tell you put a lot of work into this, but you’re severely underselling our prospects past the big 4 (no one calls them the fantastic 4) while overselling Kennedy. What did it take you guys to get Kennedy, Joe Dillon? And somehow you think you’re going to get one of these packages in return:

Kennedy alone should net a package of Gillaspie plus Tanner/Sosa/Neal, Crawford/Kieschnick/Rafael Rodriguez plus a throw in arm, or Neal plus Tanner and a better throw in arm than the other packages.

No chance. Here’s what Kevin Goldstein said about Neal recently, who’s tearing up A+ and will likely be in AA after their allstar break:

For more than just a sleeper

Thomas Neal, OF, Giants (High-A San Jose)
Monday’s stats: 2-for-4, HR (12), R, RBI, K
A draft-and-follow signed in 2006, Neal bounced back from shoulder surgery and earned some praise for a solid season in the Sally League, but he’s really exploded this year in California, and now that the scouting reports are coming in, it’s looking like this guy is legit. With a stocky build that one evaluator likened to that of an NFL running back, Neal generates tremendous leverage in his swing, and has been hitting balls all over the place of late, going 18-for-39 in his last ten games with 37 total bases to raise his season averages to .346/.426/.626. This isn’t a sleeper folks, this is a very real prospect.

As for the rest, Crawford is being lined up to take over for Renteria in either mid 2010 or 2011. We don’t have much else in the system SS wise, except for Adrianza, who isn’t hitting for shit. I doubt Crawford gets traded. Kieschnick is an interesting option, but again, not for Kennedy and Rodriguez is sort of laughable. He’s 100% projection at this point, but I doubt they would pay him $2.5 million if they didn’t think really highly of him. If we’re trading any of these guys, it better be for a lot more than Adam Kennedy (who is underrated, but not as much as everyone here seems to think). Plus, they still haven’t given Frandsen a shot. He’s certainly nothing special, but he’s free and the difference between him and Kennedy isn’t so great as to be worth anything that’s been proposed here.

As for Holliday, he just doesn’t make sense for the Giants. Would he be an upgrade? Absolutely, but not enough to be worth the cost. Right now, the Giants are happy with Winn, Rowand, and Schierholtz. Lewis and Torres make up pretty solid 4th and 5th outfielders. Plus, we have Bowker killing it in AAA (and I’m not sure what Blicks is talking about in regards to his fielding. It’s not spectacular, but he’s perfectly fine and I’ve seen little evidence, scouting reports, or reasons to think otherwise).

Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at second.

by marcello on Jul 5, 2009 10:15 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I think you over value your prospects

Crawford may be lined up to take over for Renteria in 2011 but he had draftitis last year and 100 ABs hitting in the Cal League doesn’t improve your stock that much when you put up a sub 700 ops in AA. The value of Kennedy’s wins is $10m so yes the should be willing to give up a 2.5 million lottery card for it. Neal doesn’t suck like it originally appear but he was still hitting in the Cal League, is not a good defender, and is old. These are all prospects that are significantly less valuable than the package going to CLE for DeRosa, who is a better baseball player to be sure, but a good baseline none the less.

In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK

by designatedforassignment on Jul 5, 2009 11:08 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Crawford is interesting because he has a plus glove at SS so the offensive requirements for him to be valuable are pretty low and he’s been promoted aggressively. Also, your $10M projection is wrong, since you’re assuming we’ll be getting the same production from 2B for the rest of the year as we have so far. Plus, that doesn’t really improve Kennedy’s value. He is a ~.75 win player for the rest of the year, that’s what a team is trading for. Did Tampa fleece you guys when you desperately needed Kennedy?

Neal doesn’t suck like it originally appear but he was still hitting in the Cal League, is not a good defender, and is old.

It didn’t ever originally appear like he sucked. Maybe if you weren’t aware of what happened, it would, but he was recovering from shoulder surgery last year (after missing most of 2007 because of it) while playing in a tough hitters park. He played 1B/DH last year to protect his shoulder, but he’s back in LF this year because Kieschnick is in RF. He isn’t great defensively, but he’s not a liability and he’s got a decent arm. I can’t find the link now, but he’s got a bunch of assists which has been mentioned in our Minor League threads quite a few times. Not to mention he’s doing all of this in a very tough hitters park, again. Also he is not old, since he’s 21 (not 22) and in AA soon.

As for DeRosa, why would you use him as the baseline? Why not use Kennedy himself, since he was just traded? Two of the smartest organizations came to the conclusion that he was worth Joe Dillon. Now there over 200 less PAs left in the season and you somehow think he’s worth more?

Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at second.

by marcello on Jul 6, 2009 8:11 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Disagree on most of those points.

Agree on Crawford that he has been promoted quickly but not that quickly, he is the only prospect besides Posey and Madbum that your system has that I would covet (Alderson is ok). That said in the last two weeks he has OPSed .590 so its not like hes really started figuring it out. Neal OPSed less than 700 in 06 was hurt in 07 and merely did ok in 08, so yes it looked like he sucked. Total Zone disagrees on the defense and assists are a terrible way of judging defense. If you have a good arm people don’t try to take extra bases off of you. Assists just mean that at a particular moment in time another team believed that your arm sucked more than it did in real life. San Jose is a pitchers park but its in the Cal League and everywhere else is a launching pad. Hes not old old but this is his fourth year in the minors hasn’t gotten out of A ball yet. He is going to have to be on a MLB roster this offseason I believe. So he’s not going to have a lot of chances to stick unless he is promoted rapidly from hear on out.

We didn’t desperately need Kennedy, Crosby, Pennington, Petit, Hannahan, and even Joe Dillon would have been fine at 2b. You have a steaming pile of shit. Franderson in like nine games has already cost you -5 BRAA.

I think a C+ prospect is pretty good for a starting level 2bman at the minimum.

In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK

by designatedforassignment on Jul 6, 2009 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yikes, you seriously need to learn about sample size.
Total Zone disagrees on the defense

Um, you’re basing this off of 80 chances in 2006? From the TZ overview, I suggest you read it:

Preliminary investigation shows that these ratings are more useful for infielders than outfielders. The correlation is much lower for outfielders, though at least they are (usually) positive. I’ve found that you can usually get a correlation of 0.50, meaning you regress 50 percent to the mean, at about 350 chances for infielders. This represents less than a full season of chances for second, third and short. For outfielders, you need about two full seasons of data to regress 50 percent, or about 1,000 chances.

Do you have any scouting reports talking about his defense? That would be about the only useful thing right now in that regard.

Hes not old old but this is his fourth year in the minors hasn’t gotten out of A ball yet. He is going to have to be on a MLB roster this offseason I believe. So he’s not going to have a lot of chances to stick unless he is promoted rapidly from hear on out.

What? First he’s too old, now he’s not, but he’s going to have to hurry before he runs out of options despite the fact that he’ll be in AA THIS season as a 21 year old? Just back off this point, you’re wrong.

We didn’t desperately need Kennedy, Crosby, Pennington, Petit, Hannahan, and even Joe Dillon would have been fine at 2b. You have a steaming pile of shit. Franderson in like nine games has already cost you -5 BRAA.

I don’t see how your first sentence is any different than our situation with Frandsen. And using a 30 PA sample? Did you think that actually made a point?

I think a C+ prospect is pretty good for a starting level 2bman at the minimum.

Neal is no longer a C+ prospect. The prospect world changes quickly, stop basing your judgments just off of what Sickels wrote back in December. Neal is probably a top 100 prospect now, he’s top 5 in BA/OBP/SLG while playing half his games in the toughest hitters park in the league.

Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at second.

by marcello on Jul 6, 2009 8:49 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Several quibbles.

The Total Zone was a small sample size but you were using outfield assists… I say thats a push at best.

As for Neal no longer being a C+ prospect, Law, who granted I don’t particularly like, called him a 4th outfielder less than three weeks ago. He wasn’t even a top 20 Giants prospect coming into the year mired in the middle of the HMs with a C grade. Hitting well in a notorious hitters league while sporting a 385 BABIP after never showing dominance and a 36th round pedigree doesn’t make you a top 100 prospect. A B- perhaps but not top 100.

He is turning 22 this season which is oldish for the league especially for a non college bat. The bigger problem is that I believe he is rule 5 eligible this off season which means that he has to be protected on the 40 man. That means he could be out of options fast.

I don’t think you understand we had a potential 4 WAR player on his way back after an injury. You have pinning your hopes, dreams and playoff chances on Kevin Fricking Frandersen. If Frandersen doesn’t work out you are costing your team in a playoff race 2.7 Wins compared to a league average second baseman. If you want to risk the playoffs on that be my guest but don’t come crying to me when your team fails to make the playoffs after failing to upgrading from the massive oozing sore of suckitude that you call your 2b position, in the most obvious way possible, over a C+ prospect.

In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK

by designatedforassignment on Jul 7, 2009 3:22 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

PS thanks for coming by to rumble...

Also a Gillaspie Neal package is predicated on my firm belief that Gillaspie will bust and is pretty worthless and I think isn’t that far from fair, but the Neal Tanner throw in is clearly too much.

In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK

by designatedforassignment on Jul 7, 2009 3:25 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

What Kennedy was traded for before is irrelevant.

He was in AAA and blocked in Tampa, and I doubt anyone else was banging down the Rays’ door. Now Kennedy’s had the best month or so of his life, and people remember that he actually doesn’t completely suck.

I’ll give you that players as good as Kennedy are not hard to find, but the Giants seem to be having quite a lot of trouble finding someone even approaching his level right now. A C+ prospect isn’t a lot to give up for a that big an improvement.

by Elston Gunn on Jul 6, 2009 5:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

What Kennedy was traded for before is irrelevant.

How? How in the world can you say this? It’s the exact same player being traded again in a very short period of time, of course it’s relevant. 200 ABs hardly changes anything. Further:

Now Kennedy’s had the best month or so of his life, and people remember that he actually doesn’t completely suck.

That’s true, May was a pretty amazing month for him. Unfortunately, it’s now July and June happened, where he had what was probably one of his worst months ever. Shine gone. Kennedy is who he is, a solid but unspectacular player. I’ll take my chances with Frandsen who has a career .322/.385/.457 line in the minors.

Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at second.

by marcello on Jul 6, 2009 9:02 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Two things

1. I only recommended one of Gillaspie, Kieschnick, Tanner, or Neal for Kennedy. If Neal is rising, fine; give us one of the others then. It won’t take a lot to get Kennedy. However, you’re misrepresenting the situation in Tampa Bay. Kennedy was in AAA, but his contract stated that if a team wanted to deal for him to be on a major league roster, he would have to be dealt. All the A’s had to do was say “we want Kennedy for our 25-man”, and Tampa Bay was hogtied. I’m sure Beane gave them a choice between several non-prospects, and Dillon was the one they wanted most. The original Kennedy trade means literally nothing. Based on his performance, I think the asking price of a C+ prospect is rational. If Neal is better than a C+ prospect in Sabean’s eyes, that’s fine; who IS a C+ prospect? Adam Kennedy is worth more to the A’s than the Giants’ equivalent of Joe Dillon, so you’re not going to get him for that.

2. I think this link is a better page for your son. Has a picture! :)

WordUpThome: THE HEY-DAY OF RONALD REAGAN-O-NOMICS IS A FINE TIME FOR BIRTH, NUMA NUMA DANCE STAR JOBA CHAMBERLAIN WAS ALSO BORN IN 1985

by Gallagher's Watermelons on Jul 6, 2009 11:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I did not know about part 1, if that is the case, then it is a different situation. I wouldn’t mind Tanner or Gillaspie, but I’d prefer not Kieschnick. He would make some sense though, as an interesting but flawed prospect.

As for the link, it does have a nice picture, it’s just too bad his numbers suck on that page as well.

Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at second.

by marcello on Jul 6, 2009 11:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'd be totally cool with either of those guys.

I prefer Gillaspie, but maybe that’s just because of our Paris Hilton’s crotch-sized gaping hole at 3B.

WordUpThome: THE HEY-DAY OF RONALD REAGAN-O-NOMICS IS A FINE TIME FOR BIRTH, NUMA NUMA DANCE STAR JOBA CHAMBERLAIN WAS ALSO BORN IN 1985

by Gallagher's Watermelons on Jul 6, 2009 11:59 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Gillaspie has Bust tatooed on his forehead.

In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK

by designatedforassignment on Jul 7, 2009 2:39 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Totally OT: Your icon is probably the most awesome

I’ve seen on SBN. Pure win.

"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden

Free Travis Buck.

by Blicks on Jul 7, 2009 8:55 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks

Harvey Birdman, Attorney at Law FTW.

Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at second.

by marcello on Jul 7, 2009 10:25 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

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