Draft WAR by General Manager. Beane #1 in Baseball Analysts study. (Giants suck.)
Baseball Analysts baseballanalysts.com, archives July 2nd.
Great studys on drafting in general, with three parts. Part 1)-expected value for each draft pick. 2) probability's of becoming a certain type of player. 3) The effect of a General Managers drafting ability.
As a team Oakland was top 4. As a General Manager Mr. Beane was rated #1 in WAR above average per pick and #1 WAR above average per draft. The Giants and Sabean ranked at/near the bottom.
Now this does me good. It validates what alot of A's fans feel about our G.M/Team and that his rebuilding plan will get us somewhere and that the A's or there fans are just "unlucky" right now. It would also seem to quiet at least some of the criticism of Beane at least as far as drafting goes. At the same time Giants haters can tell their stupid-ass, dumb-ass, fat-ass, Giant loving friends that Sabean is just lucky right now and will probably screw up the team soon. For a shorter acronym to call your Orange freinds, use (S.A.D.A.F.A).
more interesting facts with some of my own conclusions :
1) a good GM will net his team an average of 6-7 wins more than
an average GM in a single draft.
2) Beane is good for 9 extra WAR per draft.
3) Sabean loses his team about 9 WAR per draft.
4) the A's should have been spending more money on overslot and Int FA signings all along as the expected return would have been Higher/As Hi, than any other team. If this study bears out over more time, then the A's would be wise to spend much more money on signing players as it will net them more per dollar than any other team/most other teams.
5) anyone recently called stupid for thinking BB is a bad GM, thinking he has screwed the team up, or that he has had sub-par drafts, deserves it and should be hated. At least as far as the draft is concerned.
6) I downed a saved glass of cool-aid tonight and I feel good about it.
Cons:
the study has some weird time frames and is a short study of 10 long time GM's. A more complete study of the entire body of work of GM's could produce different results.
A way of studying just all-stars and type A ,FA types out of a draft might equalize the grades also. To their credit, the Giants have three legit young stars right now, the A's not so much.
Stars can win things. Like games, series, and playoffs. The Giants have as good a shot as anyone with Cain and Lincecum pitching. Although I do not wish to see them break their curse and win a W.S, I wouldn't mind watching a Giant-Dodger 7 game NLCS with the Dodgers/Giants losing the W.S. to TB.
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the link doesnt seem to be working
i would like to read the study before i vote. not that i dont take your word for it
holdin' it down for the bay from upper westside manhattan
here's why:
its spelled “anyalysts” in the link
holdin' it down for the bay from upper westside manhattan
Wow, very interesting.
I like this particular paragraph.
According to Moneyball, Billy Beane at one point was to be essentially traded for Kevin Youkilis. While Youkilis has become an outstanding player, the trade would not have been a good one. Beane, in just 4 years of the draft between 1998-2001, brought the A’s essentially the equivalent of a Hall of Fame player, giving the A’s 46 extra WAR over what the average GM would have been able to acquire. This advantage was gained on his drafting skills alone, not even accounting for his ability to make expert trades or sign free agents. Of course, time will tell how Beane’s drafts will turn out during the years that followed the proposed trade, but the point is made – GM’s have an enormous impact on a team’s successes, even when considering their ability to draft alone.
What about Paul DePodesta's influence?
The A’s did well when he was with them, and I wonder how much of the Dodger’s success is due to his work? How long before San Diego turns it around?
+ a lot
Remember hes the one with the laptop while Billy is banging the Fridays waitress.
He is responsible for the Dodgers team that is currently kicking ass.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 19, 2009 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions
I kinda hate that Ned Colleti getting all the credit for the team
When the key players are from DePodesta
Agreed. And Logan White and Kim Ng
did the rest of the work.
Colletti is an awful GM. He just has two awesome scouts working for him.
><
Kim Ng is going to be a good GM for someone
White tends to overdraft compared to conventional wisdom on draft position but it is hard to argue with his results.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 20, 2009 1:06 PM PDT up reply actions
The second comment:
"
“This short study of 10 current long-time GM’s shows us just how valuable a good GM can be.”
Along the lines of what The Fallen Phoenix said, many GMs have very little impact on the draft. Some leave the whole draft up to the amateur scouting directors, who know the players better. Moneyball made it seem like GMs are the ones calling all the shots. That might be true in Oakland, but I know from personal experience that’s far from true in many cases.
Guys like Arbuckle and Amaro worked closer to the draft than Wade in Philly. Same with Zduriencik with Melvin in Milwaukee. I’d guess the GM defers to them in most cases. So, be careful attributing value to GMs like that without disclaimer.
Maybe you could run the same study using Scouting Directors instead?"
I agree. Not sure if we can give Billy the credit or not, BUT if we’re going to hold him responsible for so many A’s players getting injured, then we should give him credit for this.
If the GM passes the buck to scouts, that's a GM's decision and he is accountable for what the scouts do.
So I don’t see why you should separate the GMs because some of them choose to shirk the draft.
well, it's not that some GMs shirk the draft,
from what I understand, essentially ALL GMs “shirk” the draft, that is, GMs generally make the first pick, and maybe have a few comments to make about other early picks, but after that it’s completely up to the scouting department (it may be slightly different in Oakland). And because it takes so long before you know whether the draft is working or not, either some GMs have a remarkable talent at picking the right scouting directors, or what happens after the first few rounds is more luck than anything as far as the GM is concerned. Again, I think the GM does deserve both credit and blame for things that are not directly under his control, because they’re all his responsibility, but I don’t think we should stretch it too far.
by Elston Gunn on Jul 20, 2009 10:52 AM PDT up reply actions
What years?
This is comparing teams, not GMs. I don’t see any mention of what the earliest year studied is, but the article does clearly state that
The data is also limited to those players drafted in 2001 or earlier, since more recently drafted players have not had a chance to come up and show their full value.
So Billy Beane’s last eight drafts (including the “Moneyball” draft) are excluded from the study. I suspect this study tells us more about Sandy Alderson and Grady Fuson than about Billy Beane.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
Oh wait, I see now.
I was just looking at the main study. Now I noticed the part farther down where they split out for current GMs.
But still, it’s only the first couple years of Beane’s career.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
yeah, i really want to see how the later years look.
The success of later first round picks has already been looked at, but I want to screw around with this and expand it to count players drafted past 2002.
><
yes. excluding picks that HAVE come up to protect against not counting picks that COULD come up
seems like a waste as the one’s that made it quickly are probably going to be better WAR players anyways so it wouldn’t hurt the stats of the GM’s that have later developing players that much.
"Gratuitous gesticulating together sounds even better"
I totally respect the author
for resisting the urge to extrapolate to years where the data are insufficient to support any conclusion. I see way too much of that in casual baseball data-crunching.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
I have a dream...
That 1 day AN will actually realize baseball is played on grass and not paper. You can come up with all the statistics, and to be honest you’ll be correct most of the time, but this stat is ridiculous. You cannot predict how many games a single player/coach/GM/batboy will win you. You can’t rate it. That 2 run single Giambi hit, may only be because Crosby grounded out and moved the runner over. You can’t calculate that. There is more to baseball than statistics.
I think I love you for this:
“I have a dream…That 1 day AN will actually realize baseball is played on grass and not paper.” May this become “The famous AN ‘I have a dream’ speech.”
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Oh noes!!!!!!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
And they say ths stats people are arrogent assholes... WOW
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 20, 2009 1:09 PM PDT up reply actions
That statement is less arrogant, and more ignorant, IMO.
by Pucking Insane on Jul 20, 2009 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions
I think you're extrapolating too much, PI
The statement I replied to said, “You can come up with all the statistics, and to be honest you’ll be correct most of the time, but this stat is ridiculous. You cannot predict how many games a single player/coach/GM/batboy will win you.”
That’s a very different statement from “stats are wrong” or “stats are unimportant” or “stats have little predictive value,” statements which I think would be ignorant.
What I fear many overlook in their zeal to hate me is that there are actually very few metrics, or stat-related statements, that irk me. The two main ones I can think of are “WAR” and comments like “his BABIP is high so he’s been lucky.” That leaves about — to use a stat — 98.4% of stats, metrics, and related statements as things I don’t have issues with — and many, in fact, that I like and use.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Hey, the annoying feature announcement is gone. Sweet.
"I have a dream…That 1 day AN will actually realize baseball is played on grass and not paper." May this become "The famous AN ‘I have a dream’ speech."
Right. Clearly you love statistical analysis.
Do you have any criticism of WAR other than you don’t like it? Do you understand why an exceedingly high (or low) BABIP is a sign of luck?
The frustrating thing is that there is a carefully built foundation for these stats, which you apparently take issue with for unknown reasons.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Hey, small question on BABIP that's been bugging me.
Now, this number may or may not still be correct but last I read, the “average” value was something around .290. So let’s go with that. I hear all the time that people say Player X who is batting around .220 will regress towards the mean. Now, I’m pretty certain I know the meaning of the last four words in that sentence, but unless I’m having a huge brain cramp (which is totally possible), don’t people mean to be saying that the law-of-large numbers would show that eventually his BABIP will climb up to the league wide expected value.
by Pucking Insane on Jul 20, 2009 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Not really
The idea is that a hitter has a “true” talent on babip (pitchers, less so, but more than was once thought). For example, you wouldn’t expect Pujols to have a league-average babip as he’s firmly established as an elite hitter.
Regressing to the mean is basically an assumption that a player is average that has been weakened by evidence of his above- or below-averageness.
Say, for (an incredibly simplified) example, hitter A is a September call up with no prior performance numbers to analyze. In his first at bat he homers. We use that information to say that he is (minutely) more likely to be an above average hitter than a below average one, but basically regress all the way to the mean.
If he gets 100 abs and puts up a 400/500/600 line, and we want to guess what he’ll do next year, we don’t just say 400/500/600. Instead we regress to the mean by counting his small sample of amazing performance and a large sample of average performance. That tells us that his true talent is more likely to be above average than we thought before, but we really can’t say much about that true talent.
If he gets 6000 at bats over the next 10 years, with the same line, then we can be confident that his true talent level is extremely high and we wouldn’t regress it at all.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Thanks for detailed reply.
So ultimately, given the small sample size, the variance will be understandably quite high, and we could not reject the null that hitter A is not .400/.500/.600?
Also, if I recall, the key factor in RTTM was the idea of correlation. Given such a sample size, we would expect the correlation coefficient to be relatively low between the September call-up and the potential upcoming season?
by Pucking Insane on Jul 20, 2009 4:13 PM PDT up reply actions
Pretty much right
The idea is that each at bat peels back the fog separating us from A’s true talent, but just in a very small way.
Our best guess is that he’s average, so we treat any remaining fog as average.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
not really
the point of regressing to the mean is make a guess at someone’s true talent, which is what they’d do in a very large sample size, from a limited sample size. If a guy has 10 PAs, and that’s all you know about him, the best guess at his true talent would just be to take the league average (or more accurately, your “best guess” would be the talent distribution of the league), whereas if a guy had 2000 PAs all in the same season, you would not really need to regress/take league average into account.
So if someone puts up a very high or very low babip in a small/medium sample size that is outside the range of all players (something like .210 to .390), what you’re seeing is some mix of babip skill and noise from a small sample size.
With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery
And this, by the way, I totally agree with
It’s a mix of skill — which may not be sustainable long-term but which is still real short-term — and noise from a small sample size.
What a lot of folks overlook about regression is that it’s not just about “lack of sustainability.” Yes, if a hitter is BABIPing .390 because they’re “locked in,” that’s “skill based but not sustainable over time.” But regression is also about a mathematical force that causes stats to regress to an “average” figure over time:
A hitter who is 20/50 and then goes 4/4 sees his average jump only .044 points, whereas a hitter who is 10/50 and then goes 4/4 sees his average jump .059 points.
Similarly a hitter who is 10/50 and then goes 0/4 sees his average drop only .015 points, whereas a hitter who is 20/50 and then goes 0/4 sees his average drop .030 points.
So as a stat — be it BA or OBP or BABIP — gets very high or very low, it becomes harder to keep it high/low and easier to raise/lower it, and over time you see a natural movement towards the middle.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
If Crosby went 4-4 with 4 homeruns tomorrow
It would say nothing more about his performance on Wednesday than if he’d done it a month ago.
“Hot streaks” are much more imaginary than real.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Not quite zero
There is a small but non-zero possibility that a week ago Crosby had some revelation that made him a better hitter. If that were the case then it would have a tiny but non-zero effect on his chances of hitting 4 HRs, and thus the fact of him actually doing so indicates an even tinier but still non-zero chance that such an improvement actually happened.
I’m just splitting hairs here. I don’t doubt that anything it says is statistically insignificant, but it’s not “nothing”.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
Fair enough
I support this clarification.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Duh?
You mean it takes a bat to hit a home run and not the apex on the Normal curve?
Isn’t the point that through using statistics on PAPER, one can hopefully optimize the performance on the GRASS?
by Pucking Insane on Jul 20, 2009 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions
Seriously people
I never disced all stats. I think there are several important stats.
HOWEVER…
This doesn’t mean every single stat is valid. You cannot determine how many wins a player is worth, because they are so depended on another, it may not even be a physical stat.
For shits and giggles. Just imagine that the lessons Holliday was trying to instill in Crosby this offseason actually WORKED, and Crosby goes on to hit 30 bombs, drive in 120 and hit .300. Does this add to Holliday’s value, or Crosby, or Big Mac? There is soooo much more to baseball than stats, and if you have ever played or even watched baseball enough you have to admit that statistics do lie sometimes. And just because there is a formula behind a stat doesn’t mean its applicable. How can you calculate luck? Crosby trips in the morning hits his head and all of a sudden he has a revelation on how to hit an curveball down and away, where is the calculation for that. There are simply too many variables to calculate. It’s like you get the equation a+b+c+d+e=f. Now solve.
My basic statement if you brush away all the bullshit, is that YOU CANNOT CALCULATE A BASEBALL SEASON. You can’t.
That amazing lengthy rendition being said, I also do believe that stats are important. It may seem contradictory to the novel I just wrote about stats not being God, but it is what I believe. I believe in Batting Average, OBP, Slugging, OPS, HR, RBI, SB ect. ect. I AM NOT, going to try to determine how many wins each player is worth because you can’t. You don’t know how many “wins” each player is worth.
My question then
is what specifically about this piece were you objecting to? Just the claim that we “know” how many wins a GM was worth compared to another, or the very idea of quantifying drafting success?
If it’s the first, I don’t care. Use whatever unit you want to assess comparative value. Wins and runs are convenient because they give you a stronger grounding in what the stat means. Of course context matters, and the same performance wont always net you the same number of wins, but they aren’t totally pulled out of the air. Still, I don’t care. Call it 3 elephants over replacement, if it makes you feel better.
If it’s the second, you haven’t really articulatied your concerns at all (except to comapare it to keeping track of what kind of gum they’re chewing), so please explain.
No we don’t know how to quantify Springer teaching Braden a cutter. It is outside of the statistical model because we don’t understand, and we need to have respect for not understanding it. But I really don’t get how this piece suggests that the game is played on paper, or that YOU CAN CALCULATE A BASEBALL SEASON.
by Elston Gunn on Jul 21, 2009 11:25 AM PDT up reply actions
When your team is fielding a team like the one that got shutout today,
it’s kind of nice to mess around with some statistics and be a little positive. I think many of us realize that these statistics may not be the best way to analyze things, but it’s still kind of fun and interesting to think about.
Baseball may be played on grass but the lineup is still filled out on paper.
"You're just jealous. You wish you had a rally animal..." -CardinalWraith
You sound like Confucious!
“Game played on grass, but lineup still filled out on paper…Also, life like sewer: What you get out of it depend on what you put into it.”
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Man who stands on toilet is high on pot
Formerly Gallagher's Watermelons, until Beane gave up on Gallagher. It makes sense though...Gallagher = Player To Be Named Later = me!
by CaliforniaJag on Jul 20, 2009 3:56 PM PDT up reply actions
I hate this assumption that thinking advanced statistics have value means i don't think baseball "is played on grass."
Why can’t I have respect for what is predictive and what isn’t and still appreciate the beauty and excitement of just watching a baseball game?
“That 2 run single Giambi hit, may only be because Crosby grounded out and moved the runner over. You can’t calculate that. "
WTF does that mean? I can calculate it. Or, well, I can’t, but anyone with a background in stats can, or at least do a reasonable job at it. I think what you mean is I can’t calculate the value of Giambi’s masculine aura and stench of sex and the way it gives his teammates confidence or some other bs. Intangibles exist, sure (and they’re not really intangible, we just don’t know how to quantify them), but I can have respect for the possibility that, say, a manager could help a team win by being a good leader, and still find value in a study like this.
“There is more to baseball than statistics.”
No shit, really? You mean there aren’t like a couple of dudes rolling dice and stuff and then filling in a scoresheet and then producing a a cgi sim that I can watch on TV? No one, or practically no one at least, thinks stats can tell you everything you need to know about baseball. Everyone has respect for a scouting perspective, including Beane.
I’m just tired of this. I think studies like this teach us things. Maybe not everything, but stuff worth learning. It’s ridiculous to dismiss it the way you do.
by Elston Gunn on Jul 19, 2009 6:21 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Trust me....
I love stats. I think that stats are extremely important.
HOWEVER…
This is getting ridiculous. Seriously!?!?!?! At this rate we will be calculating that the A’s win 15 % more of their games when their starting pitcher chews Big Red.
“I’m just tired of this. I think studies like this teach us things. Maybe not everything, but stuff worth learning. It’s ridiculous to dismiss it the way you do”
Really? When do I dismiss stats? Maybe that particular stat. You need to calm down. This is supposed to humorous. LOOK AT THE TITLE!
“I have a dream”
Come on dude, cool your jets a bit.
well, it's not just you--i'm frustrated at a kind of general perception i have about the way stats get treated,
and i recognize there is a danger in relying on the stuff too much. But at the very least, i think you’re very very misguided in your attack of this particular study. If you’re only upset by the one sentence that says GM x is x games more valuable, then fine, maybe the author isn’t acknowledging the degree to which the stats are imprecise. If you’re arguing that there is merely correlation but not causation between the GM administration involved in drafting players and how well those players turn out (as it would be with what kind of gum the pitcher is chewing), then please flesh that out because it makes no sense to me.
Basically, all you need to learn from this piece is that, under Beane’s leadership (whether it was his or his scouting director’s responsibility), the A’s have drafted a lot better than you should have expected (or at least they did for the first few years, and that Sabean has been horrible. Does that seem a ridiculous conclusion to draw from the data? And if not, wouldn’t you want to know that in evaluating a GM? Instead of complaining about individual draft picks that didn’t work out, studies like this let you see the forest. You don’t have to take them as gospel, but they have to be considered a valuable source of info.
I don't hate stats, but I do hate "WAR"
I think it’s a really lame concept. When Springer taught Braden a cutter, how did that factor into calculating his value? A player isn’t worth a “number of wins” — that’s just a lame concept, IMO. Sure, it’s really aiming to assess an “absolute value” in order to rank players relative to one another, but I just think it does it in an especially dumb way.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
you mean just the terms of expressing it?
WAR is just a composite of FRAA, BRAA and positional adjustments for hitters and similar stuff for pitchers. How cares if you call it wins or runs or whatever?
Well, it's kind of in the name
When I hear a sentence like, “Adrian Beltre was worth 3 more wins than Bobby Crosby,” I want to hurl my breakfast, and not just because I heard the name Bobby Crosby.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Funny
When I read how Oakland’s troubles are all because Geren doesn’t have any nuts, and then when they win it’s because he grew a pair, and then when they lose its because Geren doesn’t have any nuts…
It makes me wonder why I check in here as much as I do anymore.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Must be nuts.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Especially when Geren didn't actually grow a pair of nuts, but a pair of coffins, or Afro-Peruvian percussion boxes
m*****f***ing c***s***ing peanut butter and jelly!! f*** f*** f***!!!
Wait your forgot that its because Beane doesn't care anymore
and that if only he wanted to Giambi could hit 300.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 20, 2009 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions
But Giambi does care some games (specifically, when he gets a hit or two)
If he could only care every game he’d hit 162 HR.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 20, 2009 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Dayton Moore expressed a similar point of view towards defensive metrics
while trying to justify his trade for Yuniesky Betancourt. Basically, it came down to “I have no idea what they mean, so I’m just going to revel in my ignorance.”
Of course, not saying that’s what’s happening here. But certain parallels are striking.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jul 19, 2009 11:11 PM PDT up reply actions
So true.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 20, 2009 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions
Is it because the number is so "absolute" that bothers you?
I’m curious is it the calculation of WAR itself, which is calculated on all the stats that most people know and love that you dislike, or is the way in which certain posters retreat to WAR in order to make their argument is bothersome?
If it is the former, then I’m a little disappointed, if it’s the latter, well I’d kinda understand. I’ve been subtly trying to advocate for some time now that I’d love to see some type of variance estimation for a lot of these statistics. Whether it’s estimated through bootstrapping, propagation of errors, or some other manner.
From my experience, when you give people a range of estimates, they tend to take it with quite a few more grains of salt.
by Pucking Insane on Jul 20, 2009 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions
You are probably correct that it isn't so much that I don't like certain stats
as it is that I don’t like the behavior of the people who tend to use them the most! But specifically with WAR, an additional problem I have is that “wins” is precisely the “unit of measurement” and I think that’s a fundamentally flawed concept.
I have no problem with assigning a ranking or number value to a player, e.g., saying that “On the 1-10 GNM scale, Hannahan is a 5.5 and Uggla a 4.8, so it might surprise you but you factor in position, defense, OBP, etc. Hannahan is actually the more valuable player.” But the very point of WAR — by its own measure — is that players are individually worth a certain number of wins compared to other individuals. And I think that’s a very poor unit of measurement to use.
GNM stands for “Generically Named Metric,” by the way.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
So it's the 10 runs = 1 win that you don't like?
Or expressing defensive contribution in terms of runs?
Or expressing offensive contribution in terms of runs?
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
OK, Great
Beltre was 3 stompers better than Crosby last year.
With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery
Now see that makes perfect sense,
as long as you adjust for trunk-factor.
What doesn’t make sense is how mad some people get because I don’t care for WAR as a metric. As controversial as this personal perspective is, you’d think I was talking about war, not WAR.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
For me it’s the latter, sort of.
My problem with WAR is exactly like what I described in another comment above. The guys who devise these WAR numbers are very responsible in describing exactly what they’re doing. You can usually read their methodology summary where they say, "I have calculated the following blah blah blah, omitting blah blah and blah, assuming that blah blah blah. These are compiled into a single figure which thus represents blah blah meta-blah. The end result is then scaled against the league average for a number which I call ‘WAR’."
This is exactly as it should be. We can all take a look and see what’s being measured and base our conversations on it accordingly. But that’s not always what happens. What sometimes happens is some joker comes along and says, "I just looked up their WAR’s and the stats prove that Mookie Cabrera is two whole wins better than Beanhead Rodriguez, so ha ha ha, your stupid," possibly accompanied by a cartoon of an ostrich with its head in the sand. That’s what pisses me off.
I have no real problem with BABIP, but I’m sometimes troubled by the way casual statsters treat the concept of "luck". In statistics luck is, almost by definition, a catch-all term for anything which our model cannot measure with confidence. That doesn’t necessarily mean it’s truly random – indeed, a deterministic view of the universe does not allow that there’s any such thing as pure randomness – only that we haven’t yet figured out how to measure it, or possibly that we have but it’s sufficiently complicated that our largest data samples are still too small to draw any meaningful conclusions from it.
What irks me is when people hide behind the idea of "luck" to assert the primacy of their model. If I’ve got a metric that measures a lot of things but not quite everything, and Nico comes along and says, "I can spot exceptions to your rankings with my own two eyes", I can then say, "No, that’s meaningless; it’s just luck." But all I’m really saying is that it is outside the scope of my model, which tells us absolutely nothing about whether my model is wrong or Nico’s eyes are wrong.
This problem particularly comes up with projective stats. I tend to be far more annoyed by use of projective stats because those who quote them tend to forget that they are merely projections of what will happen, not record of what actually did happen. Predicting what a player is going to do is a lot harder than recording what he did do. You have to make educated assumptions about what past data is relevant and what isn’t. With enough data you can predict pretty well, but you’ll never get it perfect. And then when you do guess wrong, you still don’t know what the significance of your error is. Is it truly just "luck", or is it that your model is flawed and you regressed to the wrong mean? Again, with enough data you can do analyses and get a better idea of that, but you still never really know. Some people aren’t satisfied with such a fuzzy answer so they just pretend the model is always right and anything else is luck, so if Joey Pizzicato was rated a 3.45 prospect but then performs like a 2.34 they say, "oh, he just got unlucky; he’s really a 3.45" because the projected stat said so. But was it really bad luck, or was the projection just dead wrong about Joe? We don’t know.
I’ve spent a lot of time among statisticians. My sister is a professional statistician, and a good friend of mine is a semi-celebrity statistics academic. My own understanding isn’t that deep, but one thing I’ve observed just being around statistics people is that the more one knows statistics the greater one’s appreciation for what they don’t tell you. I think this holds true in the subworld of baseball statistics as well. The guys who are actually generating these numbers, as far as I can tell, know very well exactly what they’re measuring. And the people who spend a lot of time wading through articles on their sites know it a whole lot better than those who don’t. Most of my objections are to the guy at the far end of the spectrum who is eager to have exact numbers to play with, so he looks them up in a table somewhere and then builds a whole world of argument around them without looking too carefully about whether the numbers can really bear his conclusions.
And I would remiss if I didn’t point out that, in my opinion, AN is far better at this sort of thing than most websites (but not better than LL; sorry). Even our yo-yos here aren’t as annoying as the ones I see attaching comments on other sports pages. Our top stats-minded guys here I have a lot of respect for and mostly trust, but I do think that each of them gets carried away occasionally and is too eager to claim more than their numbers can really bear. When I call one of them out on something, it’s not because I doubt their ability nor because I just don’t believe in stats at all; it’s just that I think they deserve to have a skeptical observer questioning their arguments to keep them honest.
Sorry for the long rant. Hopefully it’s something I can apply generally to many other discussions over the months to come.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
by iglew on Jul 20, 2009 4:49 PM PDT up reply actions 4 recs
All well put and much mirroring my own views
I would just add, for myself, that what I think makes baseball so fascinating, complex, and humbling, is how many factors there are that routinely impact performance and confound the pundits.
When a player’s (or team’s) performance does not match its projections, how much, if any of it, is attributable to age, coaching, health, experience, luck, lifestyle (e.g., nightlife, drugs), mentoring, pressure (e.g., contract, expectations), adjustments, chemistry, new skill acquisition…?
And whether it’s rational or not, I know I react sometimes to the feeling that it disrespects the game when the wonderful complexity of baseball is minimized.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I have great love for that which is unknown
or even unknowable, so in that sense I can relate to your attachment to the mystery of the game.
At the same time, I’m very much a numbers guy and a spreadsheet guy, and I love crunching out the data and cataloguing what we do know, so in that sense I can relate to the other side, too.
I guess my biggest peeve is in what I see as the hubris that comes of saying, “This number represents everything there is to know, so there’s no need to debate it any further.”
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
by iglew on Jul 20, 2009 5:41 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Though in the case of "42" that's probably accurate.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I thought the article detailing the study itself
was very well done and very responsible about noting what the data do and don’t demonstrate. It’s a very interesting analysis of some data. It suggests a lot of interesting patterns and is quite informative when taken with all the necessary caveats of what is and isn’t included and how one shouldn’t draw definite conclusions from it.
The problem comes when someone quotes it in a blog post and it comes out looking like, “Look, this proves that Beane is smart and Sabean is stupid!” which is really inconsistent with the spirit of the study.
This phenomenon is hardly unique to AN, of course. Pretty much any time you read a newspaper article that says, “scientific studies prove that…” you’re looking at a similar misrepresentation.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
by iglew on Jul 19, 2009 11:40 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
HAHAHAHAHAH EXCEPT CROSBY DOESN'T MOVE RUNNERS OVER!!!
JOKE IS ON YOU!
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
I only ACT stupid.
Wait…
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
That's why I try to eat organic.
Sadly, no matter what I eat I apparently have to live a life that’s full of shit.
Fuck this, I’m going out for donuts.
"You're just jealous. You wish you had a rally animal..." -CardinalWraith
Oh joy... another nevermoor luvs Nico thread
You two ever thought about getting a room?
The monster at the end of this blog.
{dies a little}
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
only two things to do..
get busy living, or get busy dying.
"Camelot sure fell apart, didn't it?"-Steve McCatty
I reckon so.
"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer
I think TNT
But really those channels just blend into one giant spot on the remote for me.
"Camelot sure fell apart, didn't it?"-Steve McCatty
The funny part is that I was agreeing with him only a few days ago (about the Giambi deal)
I just lose it when he says this sort of stuff.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

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