If you think Beane is a bad GM, I hate you and find you stupid

NateHST wins. I’ll send some love towards those who think like NateHST as well.

to rely on a 23 year old rookie in Ethier to be your starting RF. If Bradley had been healthy and not a nuisance in his two years in Oakland, I think a lot fewer people would be talking about this deal as a strike against Billy.

One of the points I forgot to make in the main post is that while a lot of people claim you can’t judge a trade until years down the road, well sometimes you can’t look at it that way. Beane didn’t trade for a failed prospect and an injured outfielder, he traded for a prospect that failed and an outfielder that became injured. Same with the Swisher deal (at this point).

 And I see your point in the Hudson deal, but I really think Meyer was that good. If Meyer had stayed healthy and realized his potential, I think that would have been a fair trade straight up.

my only issue with the deal at that time was why did Beane have to give up our #1 prospect in Ethier for a problem child in Bradley, who the Dodgers couldn’t wait to unload? I just think he could have given up a couple of lower level specs instead of our #1.

1. The package that Beane received for Haren was tremendous. It was more than the Twins received for Santana, and it will likely be worth more to the A’s than Haren will be to the D’Backs for the time he was under contract when he was traded. Four cost controlled, top prospects under team control for six years and two average pitchers is a hell of a value.

2. Ludwick was 22 when he was traded, Cruz was 23 and Pena was 24. None of them were reclamation problems. All were good prospects.

3. Bradley was worth 2.7 wins above replacement in 2006, in just 96 games down the stretch.

4. Obviously prospect rankings are both subjective and objective, but they’re ranked that high because they have talent and baseball minds think they have great futures.

5. Beane and the A’s don’t look strictly at stats, just like other teams don’t look strictly at potential. You can see when Sweeney really locks in on a pitch that he can hit it a mile, but is inconsistent.

I say, do you think there would be so many “Beane is ruining the team” posts if the team was doing well? Those are emotional arguments. Mine is logical.

that trade is becoming the model for teams that are looking to trade the likes of Halladay, and other ace pitchers on the trading bloc.

It’s dreadful because the A’s are going through a rebuilding process. Do you understand that the A’s were never supposed to be competitive this year? And for next year, the A’s should have Doolittle, Cardenas, H-Rod, Demel, maybe even Brown and Carter late next year. You know why? Because Beane drafts well and makes good trades.

I would like to hear some of the examples of Beane’s stupid mistakes, along with defensible reasons as to why they’re “stupid”. I’d also like for you to explain how he “doesn’t draft well.” There is a long list of players Beane and his scouts have drafted that are successful major league players. Did you even read that list of players that were drafted after Beane became GM in 1998? Those are really good players.

Seriously though, I’d like to hear about these glaring, stupid mistakes.

during his tenure. And you can’t evaluate on hindsight, since nobody has a crystal ball. You can only evaluate based on what was known at the time of trade or signing.

I’m pretty sure its about all 28 of them, since Zdurednik and Rizzo get passes since they’ve only had their GM jobs for small periods, although you can find stupid in their predecessors.

Wow… from 1998 to present Beane has had 11 complete seasons. In 8 of those 11 seasons the team has been in contention into September. In 7 of those seasons the A’s have been in contention into the final week. In 5 of those seasons they have been in the post season tournament.

I wonder what above average looks like?

http://www.mercurynews.com/sports/ci_12848226

From that point on, I could not take the article seriously.

those of you that don’t think so are welcome to follow the dodgers this year.

Beltre got 5/64
Chavez got 6/66

That’s why some team out there is going to get Roy Halladay for a handful of prospects. They certainly aren’t worthless, even when you don’t trade them for real hitters. Prospects are actually incredibly valuable. And the A’s have a whole bunch of hitting prospects in the minors who are currently developing. And like I said earlier, Beane is not the reason that prospects fail to develop when they do.

Prospects sure as hell ARE worth a lot, especially in some of the many examples we’ve seen from trades the A’s and other teams have made. You trade for prospects because you hope or expect that at least some of them will pan out, if not all. Sometimes you may just want some organizational filler and look to flip them in another deal down the line. Teams trade them when they find another team that wants them, especially if that team is looking to dump salary and/or rebuild by sending a legit starter to a team in a pennant race.

Prospects absolutely DO have worth even if they don’t develop. When they do, the trade just looks better.

were far from bad signings. Orca was viewed as an upgrade on both sides of the ball before the year. he has sucked, but the year is half over, maybe he can do better.

Garciaparra was SUPPOSED to be a right handed bat off the bench. He should not play as much as he has. I still like the pickup.

And neither of them put A’s prospects and future success at risk.

Do you mean in the draft? It does appear that the A’s have had trouble developing offensive players in the past few years, but I don’t understand what that has to do with Beane and not the scouting directors, hitting coaches, etc. So much of that has to do with whether or not a player wants to succeed or just play. It’s very subjective. I’ll agree that the A’s have only experienced some mild success when it comes to drafting major league hitters as of late, but Beane has realized this shortcoming, and has acquired 10-15 legitimate offensive prospects via trades.

If you mean the general players’ offensive output, I think that has to do with the park, and our pitching, even with guys like Braden and Outman, who were never expected to be that good, have had success. The Coli wreaks havoc on every hitter, no matter who he was developed by.

is Abreu really a better RF than Cust? I could believe he’s slightly better with the glove, but isn’t their range about the same and doesn’t Cust have the much better arm?

Also, you have to not think of this as “should the A’s have gotten Branyan and Abreu with the money they spent on Giambi and Nomar” but rather “would these guys have taken the money to come to the A’s?”.

Looking at things from Branyan’s side, if he were mulling over similar offers from both teams why wouldn’t he choose Seattle? The only guys blocking him from playing time at 1B/DH were Mike Sweeney and Ken Griffey — neither likely to stay healthy or productive. This would give him a chance for a ton of at bats. Now in Oakland they seem committed to Cust at DH, all the rumors said that Giambi was coming to Oakland (which would have happened even with a Branyan signing) and Chavez was even supposedly healthy. If I am Branyan that seems like a lot of talent to try and get beyond for playing time, especially since they are all left handed — same as Branyan. Also, Branyan would not have our pre-disposition towards knowing that Chavez would never actually play, he would be more likely to believe the team hype. My point here is, why would he choose Oakland over Seattle when Seattle offers way more chances for playing time to hopefully do well and earn a much bigger contract after the one year deal (hey, and seems that may have worked out for him).

With Abreu, the case is even easier to make. He would see the Angels as the far superior team so the only way he comes to Oakland is if they add on a couple extra million and/or another year. Did we really want to outbid the Angels by that much for a corner OFer who might only be a marginal upgrade over our current youngsters (ie Buck, Cunningham)? We were not getting him without seriously topping what the Angels offered, so in his case I cannot see how you would think we really had a chance to get him. For all we know, Billy did offer him similar money and was turned down. Heck, same with Branyan really.

My overall point is that a post that says “we should have spent X amount of dollars and signed this guy instead” massively overlooks the fact that the player in question may not have been interested in our money. If there is one thing the Furcal nonsense showed us its that in some cases you would have to way outbid other offers to get some guys to come play here. Criticizing Billy for not signing Abreu and/or Branyan (when odds are they would have preferred their current offers to Oakland) seems a bit ridiculous.

And for what it’s worth, pretty much every team in the major leagues has passed on Branyan. If you want to hold that has a strike against Beane, go for it, but it should be a strike against every other GM besides Jack Z for not signing him and giving him regular playing time.

And Abreu’s defense has been so awful for his entire career, aside from this year, that it would have been stupid to call him up and give him a spot in the outfield. The Angels did, and they have been ridiculously lucky that he’s been worth just -0.1 FRAA so far this season.

“Beane was an idiot for trading away that blue chip prospect for that rental veteran. Now, what the hell is Beane doing holding on to Holliday for so long? He needs to trade him for some blue chip prospects!” They think Beane was stupid for doing that, but now they want other GMs to be stupid and do the same.

The A’s could trade Suzuki, Cahill, and Anderson for Yuniesky Betancourt tomorrow, and still be able to say, this time next year, ""the team’s been competitive 8 years out of the last 12." Yes, the A’s were awesomely competitive for an 8-year stretch, and that’s great — and no small feat. But that doesn’t, in and of itself, shelter a GM from reasonable criticism of the choices made since then.

How is Beane responsible for the tendinitis in Doolittle’s knees, the overdoing it by Weeks at Wrigley field last year, the arm problems FDLS and Outman have? Seriously, any thoughts?

Why do people assume Beane can see the future?

And I think the plan wasn’t bad at all. Giambi was supposed to DH full time, with Barton and Nomar splitting time at 1B. Cust was supposed to play RF. The rotation had the potential to be really good, but injuries decimated it and the bullpen. It wasn’t foolproof, but the only way you have a foolproof plan is if you load up with about 10 major league starters and sign a bunch of awesome FA… like the Red Sox and Yankees.

that is, expecting Chavez to be healthy enough to contribute enough, so that Nomar would not be used so often in the field during the first month, and that Giambi would not be called upon to play first base on a daily basis from the getgo. While this issue had repercussions throughout the infield and the lineup this season, it seems apparent that the expectation of Chavez being able to contribute has also affected the A’s drafting and trading strategy for the past few years….that is being addressed in the organization now, but the results won’t really affect the major league club for a couple more seasons (barring a big trade).

then I’m pretty much limited to Crosby and Springer.

Those defending Beane in this thread are relying on, “He can’t see the future!” Well, no, but he’s kind of in the “see the future better than others” business and when his efforts yield the very worst of possible outcomes — Giambi hitting under .200 and Cabrera leading all SSs in errors and other options out there working out great for other teams — it’s not exactly shocking that people would be a bit critical of his work this year.

That being said, the good outweighs the bad and I wouldn’t want to lose him to any other franchise.

If, as I suspect, there is no one then the fact he isn’t perfect is irrelevant and we’re just indulging in this site’s patented #1 = adequate, #2 = average, <= #3 = crappy ranking system.

I’m not saying Beane is the reason Outman was good, but didn’t Beane acquire him? A good GM acquires good prospects for good players. Whether or not that prospect succeeds or fails is, for the most part, out of his hand, other than hiring good developmental coaches and what not. But there are a lot of prospects that will flame out no matter who is developing them, for whatever reason – distractions, drugs, health, weight, etc.

I really don’t see what the problem is; again, I’m not giving credit for good prospects developing into good players or blaming him when good prospects fail to develop, but if Beane acquires two good prospects and they both go different ways, then I’m sure as hell going to give him credit for acquiring two good prospects, you see?

that wasn’t me.

He clearly lets his emotion gets in the way of his better decision-making skills at times. The infamous Jeremy Giambi trade was outlined pretty well in Moneyball, but it’s also stuff like Eric Chavez, who he’s always been in love with and refuses to let go.

I’m always baffled when he does these interviews and spews crap like “Well when you lose a player of Eric Chavez’s caliber….” The last time Eric Chavez was “a player of Eric Chavez’s caliber” was 2004, and the last time he was anything remotely resembling healthy was 2006. That Beane keeps trotting out the Chavez line, that he has thought at all in the past couple seasons that Chavez would be Chavez again, is bordering on insane.

 Brings back Giambi because he loves him, hires his best man to be manager. Falls in love with guys like Buck and Gallagher and then throws them all over the place when he loses faith in them. Still continues to play Bobby Crosby, who hasn’t resembled a major league hitter since 2005. These weird emotional attachments and detachments he develops don’t make any sense and don’t often help the team any.

We were competitive before the Blanton and Harden deals, which happened at the deadline last year. That’s when we went into full blown rebuilding mode. I don’t think you understand that the minor league system was growing weaker, and when guys like Blanton and Haren and Harden reached FA, they were going to become too expensive to resign them, so we had to get what we had for them to remain competitive years down the road.

On three or four trades, Beane completely revamped the system and took it from the ten worst to the five best. I assure you, all of those trades were made with the A’s future success in mind. And even though we haven’t been competitive this year, there is definitely a silver lining. We’ve seen Cahill, Mazzaro, Bailey and Anderson all go through stretches where they absolutely dominate hitters. The A’s are maybe one or two years away from being competitive again.