Beane has really screwed this team up
by BlueMoon on Jul 17, 2009 9:28 AM PDT
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Hindsight can be unfair, but when evaluating Beane's many TRADES the past couple years it's hard to ignore the roster mis-management. Let's erase his trades going back to Eithier for Bradley. I might miss a couple.
Outfield/dh could include: Eithier, Swisher, Buck, Cust, Kotsay
Pitching staff would include: Haren, Harden, Blanton, Cahill, Mazzarro, Braden, Street, Duscher. Plenty of pitching talent to fill holes as needed in infield with good trades for major league-ready players.
Problem I have is A's not trying to win now and making poor choices (Weeks over Wallace?). Trading 24-year-olds for 20-year-olds for that Fremont Park? Oops. I'd rather have Haren, Harden, Swisher, Eithier, Street than Sweeney, Gio, 1 year of Holliday, all those minor leaguers that may or may not make it.
Welcome to Pittsburg Pirates of the West -- only with worse talent evaluation.
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Boy, how does one even comment about this?
I had to stop reading after Haren and Anderson were on the same pitching staff.
Your team is your child...You love it no matter what.
just grade it like American Bandstand...
poor composition, grammar and spelling…
spotty premise
shitty beat, I can’t dance to it
I give it a 23, Dick
"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jul 17, 2009 9:42 AM PDT up reply actions
Boy oh boy,
I think you’ve just opened up the flood gates.
The A’s got Anderson for Haren. Not to mention also recieving Carter, Cunningham, Gonzalez, Eveland and Smith. Say what you will about the last two, but it’s a trade I’d make again.
And let’s not get into the Bradley for Ethier thing again. Also, you’d rather have Kotsay than Devine? I’ll take Devine’s and his Tommy Johned elbow over Kotsay any day of the week.
Sure, I’d like to win now as well but c’mon. This is just dumb.
by Streams Of Whiskey on Jul 17, 2009 9:42 AM PDT reply actions
I'm not sure...
… but I don’t see anywhere in BlueMoon’s original post where he suggests that Haren and Anderson would be on the same staff.
Not saying I agree with BlueMoon (I still like the Haren deal, the Holliday deal, and the Kotsay deal; I wish we could retroactively take back Ethier, Harden, and Gaudin), but you might want to read the original post before you start criticizing it…
Just a thought.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to expect that amount of exactness which the nature of the particular subject admits." - The Not Big Aristotle
by Uncle Charlie on Jul 17, 2009 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions
By the way...
… I don’t really want Harden or Guadin back on the A’s (or for the A’s to have to pay for sub-par or DL production), but the guys we got in that deal are the ultimate 4-A players. We dealt Gallagher to get Hairston (shitty), we don’t use Eric Patterson, and Matt Murton just got a start at DH in the AAA All-Star Game. Josh Donaldson is the only one who may have any chance of busting out for the A’s organization… not a great haul for two MLB pitchers, one of whom has the talent of Harden.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to expect that amount of exactness which the nature of the particular subject admits." - The Not Big Aristotle
by Uncle Charlie on Jul 17, 2009 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions
First,
He edited the post after TheRaiderWay and I mentioned the fact that he said the staff would include Haren and Anderson.
Second, I don’t believe any of my critique of the post was out of line or unwarranted. It’s pretty much the truth.
The Bradley trade was a “win now” trade. They didn’t win and Ethier has blossomed nicely, so now it looks like a bad trade to those that want to bend reality to fit their arguement.
How ’bout the Kotsay/Devine trade? Am I way off base there as well?
I didn’t even mention the Cupcakes trade for Outman/Cardenas/etc. Anyone remember how fond we all were of Big Joe before he was dealt?
I don’t even completely disagree with BlueMoon’s sentiments here. It just doesn’t seem entirely thought out before posting.
by Streams Of Whiskey on Jul 17, 2009 5:41 PM PDT up reply actions
+++S.O.W.
I can’t believe this a seriuos post. But, als, this is the same person who posted about “having rootbeer floats with Billy Beane” at spring training, while Beane spilled his guts about his plan for the team…..not!
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
He edited it
Your team is your child...You love it no matter what.
by TheRaiderWay on Jul 17, 2009 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions
Pittsburgh Pirates of the West?
Are you serious????
I’ll readily admit Beane made some recent poor decisions. the Ethier trade was not one of them. Milton Bradley was a key element of a team that went to ALCS.
Since beane took over as GM in 1998, we have made the playoffs 5 times and been above 500 8 out of 11 seasons with ZERO seasons of above 88 losses. Of those 8 winning seasons the lowest win total has been 87 games, 9 of those seasons have been above 90 wins. Every other small market team would love that. Every team outside Boston, NY Yankees would LOVE that. Until last 2 years A’s have always been relevant. Gain some perspective. Those numbers put us in top 10 of major league baseball in terms of success, possibly top 5.
We have what other scouts have called “best assembling of young pitching talent at one time”. Look across the bay. In 2 years our staff could be as dominant if not more, because we’ll have pitchers 1 thru 5 considered having front end ability.
Pirates of the West
The only way the Pirates are superior to the A’s (or even close in comparison) is their ballpark.
"If Vin Mazzaro comes anywhere near me with shaving cream he’s gonna be coming away with a bloody stump" – Dallas Braden
true story.
and man do they have a great park.
What you fail to understand in your joyless myopia is that baseball is the key to life-- the Rosetta Stone, if you will. If you just understood baseball better all your other questions your, your... the, uh... the aliens, the conspiracies they would all, in their way be answered by the baseball gods.
by winchester5 on Jul 17, 2009 10:00 PM PDT up reply actions
No thanks
Rich Harden has a era over 5 and he’s made out of paper mache. Joe Blanton is a five inning pitcher with a 4.5 era in the NL and people have already pointed out the Anderson/Haren flaw in your logic.
One last thing the A’s have stunk the last 2 1/2 seasons no doubt about it. The Pittsburgh Pirates haven’t had a winning season since 1992. The first George Bush was still President when the Pirates were last good. I was old enough to vote but not drink when the Pirates were last good. When the Pirates were last good my computer took up most of my desk. When the Pirates were last good Madonna was still hot and U2 was still cool. When the Pirates were last good Barry Bonds had a normal sized head and everybody still liked Mark McGwire. So please let’s not go crazy comparing the A’s and the Pirates because there is no comparison.
I take umbrage with your slight
Just kidding I still love U2 but I don’t think anyone under 30 listens to them. I wore a U2 concert shirt to a school function and none of my students knew who they were.
I have you all on the coolness, I'm afriad
I saw U2 on the “October” tour, at SUNY/Stony Brook in 1982, I think.
Hey, I just bought the team from Lew Wolff... who wants to play third?
by emperor nobody on Jul 17, 2009 4:47 PM PDT up reply actions
oops
I looked it up, it was when “War” came out and the show I saw was May 1, 1983.
Hey, I just bought the team from Lew Wolff... who wants to play third?
by emperor nobody on Jul 17, 2009 4:49 PM PDT up reply actions
I was in 3rd grade
Ms. Stephenson’s class at Holbrook Elementary. I was sure I was gonna marry her… or Princess Leia, especially right after I saw Return of the Jedi… Wait, thanks for making me feel young :)
got that beat
I saw U2 open for the J Geils Band in 1982 (?) at the SF Civic Auditorium (Bill Graham was still alive!!)
It was horrible…NOBODY had heard of them and they got booed and had stuff thrown at them onstage. They basically had no chance, as it was the Centerfold tour for J Geils at the height of their popularity. BTW, J Geils sucked as well…one of the worst shows Ive ever seen.
tdwclark
Paul Hewson had very mediorce vocals back then.
If anyone gets the chance, listen to the song
Trash, Trampoline, and the Party Girland see if you agree.
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 17, 2009 6:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Arggg
Too much wine. That shouldn’t be blockquoted. It should be italicized instead.
by LowcountryJoe on Jul 17, 2009 6:48 PM PDT up reply actions
I am 20 and a huge u2 fan. But hey, I agree with you, my friends have horrible taste in music.
What you fail to understand in your joyless myopia is that baseball is the key to life-- the Rosetta Stone, if you will. If you just understood baseball better all your other questions your, your... the, uh... the aliens, the conspiracies they would all, in their way be answered by the baseball gods.
by winchester5 on Jul 17, 2009 10:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Wait
My computer still takes over most of my desk…
Shit
Ooo! Piece of candy!
by ChickenStanley on Jul 18, 2009 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions
A lot of holes with this
Kotsay would be a FA. Harden and Duke would be after this year. Blanton, Street, and Haren after 2010 (although Haren’s extension was pretty reasonable). Counting salaries the A’s would have $25 million more in payroll and no farm system.
The A’s are in a better position as soon as 2010 with the trades, though they might be slightly worse this year. That’s the point of rebuilding.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
Exactly.
And they’d be a better team right now by cutting the “grizzled vets” who are the main reason the A’s are sucking right now. No bat, meh/no glove, sub replacement level guys like Giambi, OCab, and Crosby are the ones killing the team.
Not the guys received for Haren, Harden, and Swisher.
><
So this year really sucks
Agreed. We could go back and wish for guys like Harden (who ain’t doing so hot) and Blanton (likewise), but really, this team would be pretty much just as crappy without any of the recent trades. The older trades resulted in the longest post season run since 1990 so I got no qualms with those.
Really, it sucks way worse than last year when I figured the A’s were gonna suck. I had hoped Matt Holliday, Jack Cust, Eric Chavez and Jason Giambi in the middle of the order would put up some runs. Garciaparra playing a few games here and there would help. Etc.
It didn’t work out… I think next year will be slightly better, but not much. But I am still excited and here is why:
Here is what the A’s have- 6 Major League capable starters (M, A, C, Outman, Braden and Gio). Arguably they have SImmons close and until they traded Gallagher for a guy who actually can hit pretty decently they had 8 guys who can pitch at the big league level and under team control for the next 5-6 years.
So who the hell is gonna get on base and score runs? Weeks, Cardenas, Carter, Doolittle…
2011 will be the first year of a 5 to 6 year window in which the A’s will be real contenders for the World Series. If they need to add guys at certain positions, they have the chips to get them.
2011
I’m with jeffro on the 2011 start of the A’s window. There will be no excuse for the A’s not to add a bat through free agency or trade help this team after 2010 as the pitchers will still be cheap and Chavy’s contract will be gone.
If just two or three of these young guns come through then the A’s have hope and we all have a reason to live.
It's an interesting one
who would bet against there being battle of the bay II in the WS before 2015?
both the Giants and A’s have good, young pitching staffs nearing their peak (the giants are a bit more advanced in their rebuilding than the A’s), all each team needs is a couple of their young bats to take off…
an exciting time to be in the bay area!
Jaws is my favorite movie of all time
Jaws: The Revenge is the worst movie in the history of cinema.
Like anyone could even know that Napoleon
Jaws is a true classic. We must be the same age… we love Jaws, U2, think Jaws the revenge sucks (although the game was fun on NES)
I'd forgotten about the game
but your right now that I think about it I remember having fun with it.
Hell yes!
I culd collect konch shells like nobodies business. I remember the first time I speared that horrible beast with the boat. Twas awesomer than a Jack Cust Strickout!!!!!111
The Giants
Their pitching isn’t that great long term unless the guys in the low minors break the way they expect them too. My only caveat.
This is true
but hell, where’s the fun in saying that? It’s mid July, it’s time for wild speculation! Besides, Baumgartner is pretty decent, I’d say?
I don't disagree
Posey is good too… but the jury is out on how they will do at triple A and the big leagues. Foppert or Cain? Or something else?
Posey? I can’t think of any good hitting prospects the Giants have had in a while… Sandoval or… has there been any other?
oh yeah, I mean, I don't really know their minor league system
I’m just excited for there to be two good teams in the bay area
Let's see Battle of the Bay II - Sometime near 2012 ummm
Battle of the Bay I had the earthquake
Battle of the Bay II could have the Polar realignment and everything else that goes with that. WOW what an event. I can see it now. Cardenas hits a grand slam out and into McCovey Cove and PacBell park sinks into the bay.
Just a Battle of the Bay and natural disaster thought
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
Bring it on!
I guess with all the dicking around with off days and such, Game 7 of the 2012 WS might actually be on December 21st…
"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jul 17, 2009 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions
I assume this must be a rhetorical question
who would bet against there being battle of the bay II in the WS before 2015?
because anyone who isn’t completely innumerate would bet against it.
There are 224 possible matchups for the World Series. Even if you postulate that this particular matchup is far more likely than any other, it’s still an extreme long shot to make that exact match in only five tries. (I’m not counting this year; I think we can all agree the A’s aren’t going to the World Series in 2009.)
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
+ a lot
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 17, 2009 4:18 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm guessing that one's rhetorical, too.
;-)
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
FAIL
You should layoff the Bluemoon beer dude, because you sound like a complete dumbass.
Stop jumping off balconies and landing on your head.
My religion is A'slamic.
by WhoNeedsReligionWhenYaGotBaseball on Jul 17, 2009 10:11 AM PDT reply actions
Did you know Blue Moon is made by Coors and thus funds Peter Coors' bigotry?
I didn’t until recently, which made me very sad as I liked the beer and can no longer drink it.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 17, 2009 4:19 PM PDT up reply actions
When you're a Coors and you're running for Gov of Colorado and part of your platform is to lower the drinking age to 18
there miiiiiiight be a conflict of interest there…
Drinking age should be 18
If you are old enough to die for your country then you should damn well be old enough to drink a beer.
-1
The military enlistment age minimum should be increased to 21, then the whole drinking/fighting metaphor stands up…
"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jul 18, 2009 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions
QOTM political category
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 17, 2009 6:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Is that the same thing as QOTM, CGV category?
"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jul 18, 2009 3:57 AM PDT up reply actions
LOL I started the toeing of the line so if its anyones fault its mine.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 18, 2009 8:00 AM PDT up reply actions
and of course, I'm not offended at all
when I see the chance for a laugh, I go for it…
What takes restraint is to not call an idiot an idiot, but to point out the fallacies in his/her argument in a non-personal way. It’s not easy, either.
"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jul 18, 2009 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions
shock top > blue moon
"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball
There is a lot of good beer like that
but in a lot of places without good beer it is available.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 18, 2009 8:16 AM PDT up reply actions
Moneyball movie
While I’m at it. Wouldn’t Rowen Atkinson (the actor who stars in those “Bean” movies) be more appropriate than Brad Pitt? “Mo” from the 3 stooges came to mind, but he’s unavailable.
Ha
3 points for creativity :)
I thought George Clooney would be the better guy to play beane, he kind of resembles him I guess.
I like this one. Well done.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 17, 2009 4:20 PM PDT up reply actions
Aside from the flaw which others have pointed out…
I’d rather have Haren, Harden, Swisher, Eithier, Street than Sweeney, Gio, 1 year of Holliday, all those minor leaguers that may or may not make it.
…would you also rather fork over the millions — out of your own pocket — even though the revenue might not offset it?
Haren: 7.5 (though a bargain)
Harden: 7
Blanton: 5.5
Street: 4.5
Swisher 5.3
Kotsay 1.5
Without these trades
the A’s would have one of the worst farm systems in the major leagues and would look pretty hopeless 2010+. Instead, the future is very bright, as we have a young, cost-controlled core (Cahill, Anderson, Mazzaro, Gio, Braden, Cunningham, Buck, Ziegler, Suzuki, Devine, Bailey, Wuertz, even Hairston) and tons of money coming off the books going into next offseason with which we could plug up our holes and hopefully put together a solid team that could compete for the division title.
Jack "The Must, Just has no Rust, ain't no Bust, after him the ladies Lust, turns pitchers into Dust, likes his pizza with no Crust" Cust
Why does anybody think having Mark Kotsay on this team would improve matters?
Although, we would, at least, get a look at this during the wives’ softball games.
"If Vin Mazzaro comes anywhere near me with shaving cream he’s gonna be coming away with a bloody stump" – Dallas Braden
She definitely could use a sammich or two
"If Vin Mazzaro comes anywhere near me with shaving cream he’s gonna be coming away with a bloody stump" – Dallas Braden
A lot of us had to hold our tongues on that.. She is Hall of Fame
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
I never used to understand the phrase
“Can’t tell his elbow from his ass”. How could one confuse the two? An elbow is like a bony corner with no padding, and an ass is … well, now I understand. She does look kind of like an elbow there.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
and now i understand the phrase
“rubbing elbows with…”
don't care if i ever get back.
by AV on Jul 17, 2009 3:57 PM PDT up reply actions
I have yet to figure out who exactly
sets the standards for beauty in today’s culture. I much prefer thicker women, you know, the kind that don’t slightly resemble young boys? I like em with curves, and hips, and breasteses. I like them soft and demure, except when they don’t want to be demure. I like that even better.
I don’t really go for the concentration camp survivor-with-make-up look.
"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer
Listen
When I first met my wife I said, “Hi, I am Jeff the new manager here.” Hand all extended to shake and such.
She looked at my hand, at my face, back at my hand, back at my face… and said, “I am Rachel and I am a bitch.”
Love at first nondemuring. Or something.
You should have asked her
which one of the two names do her friends use?
Then you should have told her to get a better look at that hand, because she’ll be eating out of it real soon!
"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer
Indeed!
But how could you let such a delightful meeting slide by without letting her know how it was going to be?
Eh, sounds like you had it your way eventually! Nice!
"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer
+1
There are many things I want to say but I will refrain because they might be a little vulgur.
I love my wife’s body and she isn’t super model thin. It’s a shame that just because some men find skinny girls attractive most women think they need to be skinny too. Confidence is the most sexy thing a woman can be IMHO. Plus I’m not Brad Pitt myself :- )
You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}
Indeed....curves are beautiful on a woman.
But personality and confidence are even sexier…
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
I actually have some serious thoughts on that question,
but if I were to start getting all analytical on a topic like this everyone would think I’m a freak.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
Aren't we all?
Because if not, then I’m seeing a lying ass therapist.
"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer
Don't I like it this way.
Exploit the undervalued commodities!
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 17, 2009 10:57 PM PDT up reply actions
Don’t kid yourself. No way do you turn her down.
by chri5 on Jul 17, 2009 2:19 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
What matters is not the amount of meat on her bones...
but if she can walk all the way from the Power Exchange to the Citadel in ballet boots!
"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jul 17, 2009 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions
I could tell you, but it'd be way more fun to show you
Just remember to bring some lube, a rubber chicken, a polaroid camera, handcuffs, assless chaps, a teddy bear, a sharpie, three towels, a ham sandwich, and a feather duster.
She's married. Of course you turn her down.
And if moral scruples aren’t enough for you, there’s the fact that her husband is big and tough son of a bitch who could surely kick your ass.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
geez, this and the don't bet on the bay bridge series...
have a little fun
;)
"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball
OK, you win. But I still prefer one Kim to three Jamies.
I’ve only got two hands.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
But Iglew
Kotsay would throw his back out chasing Jeffro down and go on the DL. Jeff could then put the moves on her with no worries. At least for 15 days.
Ooo! Piece of candy!
by ChickenStanley on Jul 18, 2009 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm recommending this.
Even with a poorly constructed argument at the outset, this post has resulted in some examples of the positive aspects of Beane’s rebuild. Kinda rare around these parts right now.
Baseball isn't magic.
Good point
I have some problems with some of the moves Beane has made but I still support him and believe he’ll get the team turned around. Now if this team still stinks 3 years from now then all bets are off but I think the club will get better.
i really think talent evaluation
has been one of the best and worst facets of the front office.
When it comes to finding players off the scrap heap, we do a pretty good job (Chad Gaudin, Jack Cust, Adam Kennedy, etc…) But I think one of the things we don’t do very well is trading our prospects and young players. I take a look at Kenny Williams flipping a promising Brandon McCarthy for John Danks (who hadn’t pitched in the majors yet) and I think that’s all scouting right there. If someone could’ve seen that in Travis Buck and then maybe we could’ve made a trade similar to McCarthy/Danks. And on the flip side if we could’ve had the sense to see that trading Ethier was a bad idea, that would’ve been huge as well.
When it comes down to it, you just have to realize with this kind of revenue and payroll, the margin for era is so small. And you pretty much have to do every facet so spot on (sort of like the Twins), just to compete every year. I just think we need a few people looking at our prospects and young players in the bigs and going, “he looks real good, but you know what, this is his peak value right now.” And then have the balls to say it to someone.
Whoa
Name one prospect the A’s have traded, besides Eithier, that became a Major League regular for the team they traded them to…
One other caveat
They didn’t suck when they became the regular… I am thinking of Jose Ortiz, Angel Berorra, Eric Hinske… I really think if you go back and look at the prospects Beane has traded, they have been mostly flash in the pans.
NELSON CRUZ
… for Keith Ginter.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to expect that amount of exactness which the nature of the particular subject admits." - The Not Big Aristotle
by Uncle Charlie on Jul 17, 2009 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions
What?
The issue is whether Beane can evaluate talent; thus, the relevant inquiry is whether the player dealt by Beane later turned into a good MLB player.
Whether or not the team to which Beane dealt that player then turned around and dealt him again is irrelevant to the question of whether Beane is a good evaluator of young talent…
"It is the mark of an educated mind to expect that amount of exactness which the nature of the particular subject admits." - The Not Big Aristotle
by Uncle Charlie on Jul 17, 2009 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions
No see
I asked above:
Name one prospect the A’s have traded, besides Eithier, that became a Major League regular for the team they traded them to…
Well then...
… we’re answering two different questions.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to expect that amount of exactness which the nature of the particular subject admits." - The Not Big Aristotle
by Uncle Charlie on Jul 17, 2009 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions
And one last thing
I don’t entirely agree. Beane traded Carlos Pena for Ted Lilly… Pena then went form Detroit to Boston to New York before figuring things out in Tampa Bay… That is an extreme example, but would having Carlos Pena figuring it out for years instead of Ted Lilly really show that Beane couldn’t evaluate talent?
Besides, the A’s had Nelson Cruz at one point… so doesn’t than mean they saw him as talented?
Only other one I could think of...
Aaron Harang, who we traded for Jose Guillen.
- Also, Beane did deal Ted Lilly (admittedly not a prospect at the time) for Bobby “Ronald McDonald” Kielty, which was a shitball trade.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to expect that amount of exactness which the nature of the particular subject admits." - The Not Big Aristotle
by Uncle Charlie on Jul 17, 2009 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions
yeah
I wasn’t saying that Beane hadn’t made shitball trades… I guess I misunderstood the original point. My daughters name is Lillian but everyone calls her “Lilly” and there is a reason it ain’t spelled “Lily.”
What Iw as saying is that Eithier is an exception AND Beane has traded tons of pontential studs who became duds.
That is absolutely true
You look at the list of dudes Beane has traded over the last 4-5 years, and almost every single one is a “whodafuggisthat?”
"It is the mark of an educated mind to expect that amount of exactness which the nature of the particular subject admits." - The Not Big Aristotle
by Uncle Charlie on Jul 17, 2009 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions
ur missing the point
a lot of this is about who they haven’t traded and being saavy and ballsy enough to trade away studs and those that look like potential studs. Case in point: Travis Buck, Daric Barton, Bobby Crosby (Year one), Jack Cust (in the offseason after we reacquired him), etc…
And I didn’t limit this to prospects as well, you missed that. Ethier is a good example, however so is Aaron Harang, Ted Lilly, Jeremy Bonderman (imagine what trading him year 2006 would’ve netted us).
And let me repeat, this is a fine frickin line. But you have to really tread trying to be perfect to win in this market.
wow dude
my whole point is you pretty much have to hold yourself up to an impossible standard. And lately, the lack of trading a couple “one year wonders” has put us in the hole.
Turn off your unabashed homerism for a second and realize I am sympathizing while criticizing. Don’t be a douche.
Wha?
So is everyone who disagrees with you a “douche?”
I was asking questions about your point (which seems to evolve with each post). I don’t appreciate being attacked personally for asking questions.
How is it homerism to say that perfection is a terrible standard by which to judge a GMs trading history? Players succeed and fail in ways that can be unknowable.
The only GM to never lose a trade is one who doesn’t make any trades.
by chri5 on Jul 17, 2009 2:26 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I don't know about that.
Stoneman hardly traded at all, but he still did all right.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
Justin Lehr started in this year's Triple A All-Star game
I am Ray Fosse's infatuations with Clay Wood and high-definition television.
by franks a lot on Jul 17, 2009 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions
my only issue
is the A’s trading away 2 very talented, cheap, young players in Haren and Swisher. And for what? to replenish a farm system?? I guess it worked, the Rivercats are tearing it up in Sacramento.
such short term vision
and if the A’s had Swisher and Haren right now but not the fellows they traded for… would the team be any better?
I don't know
but it just went against the team’s philosophy, something I bought into as a new A’s fan.
by sf drift king on Jul 17, 2009 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions
in other words,
lock up your young talented players before their arb years.. so it enables us to remain competitive while not over spending for unproven or questionable FAs.
by sf drift king on Jul 17, 2009 12:06 PM PDT up reply actions
Ahhh
But conditions change and so does performance… Swish appeared to maybe be the second coming of Terrence Long (hyperbole abounds, sorry) a bit in his last season in Oaktown… he reinforced that concept in Chicago last season. He has had a slight uptick this year, but he isn’t a premier MLB player and the A’s have made similar moves in the past.
Haren would be nice, but he was gained by trading a good arm under favorable contract terms and he has netted Anderson, Eveland, CarGon, Holliday, Cunnighman… I guess I would say I think with Carter still climbing the ranks the Haren move has been good but could become great.
I think the bottom line is
There’s no point in holding on to one or two good players if the rest of the team isn’t that great, and there’s not a lot of help coming through. The A’s just can’t compete in FA, so what are you going to do – trot out Haren every five days to appease the fans, but ultimately not make the playoffs?
I’d rather the team finish sub .500 for three years and then make it, rather than finish four games back six in a row.
or, yknow. worse.
The missing link in the chain
Is that the A’s had virtually no one in the farm system. The A’s philosophy has always been lock down young talent, and sell high on talent to replenish the system. Basically the philosophy is more cyclic than what you’ve said, that is, the A’s develop talent in order to get more talent.
by MrMoneyBaller on Jul 17, 2009 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Did you know you can comment on Athletics Nation from your phone or PDA? SB Nation has launched mobile commenting. Check it out next time you're at the game or bar and have something to say.
I just wanted to say something equally uninteresting and unimpressive.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Jul 17, 2009 12:48 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
This site condones drinking and posting
I am Ray Fosse's infatuations with Clay Wood and high-definition television.
by franks a lot on Jul 17, 2009 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm going to write a fanpost called:
Just give me all the good players, please!
I'll help...
Dear God…
Please make all the other players on all the other teams die, and all the players on the A’s hit nothing but homers…
Signed
Logan,
Age 4
"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jul 17, 2009 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions
by whoring ourselves, as usual...
Is it time for the ball shaving party, yet?
"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jul 17, 2009 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions
These posts piss me off.
Complain about something else…something that actually warrants complaints. And when you find something worth whining about, make sure that you know what you’re talking about.
Eh, people are frustrated.
They need to vent. Logic has nothing to do with it.
by LoneStranger on Jul 17, 2009 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions
So I should let them spew nonsense because they're frustrated?
If they had legitimate problems with the way Beane was running the team, okay. But honestly this is just rambling gibberish and it’s becoming more and more common around here.
I don't mind the nonsense. It gives us something else to bitch about other than the team. :)
I think there is a direct correlation between how crappy the team does and the gibberish that shows up. People like to complain. It’s in our nature.
I work in support, and we never hear from people when shit is working. Only when it’s broken.
by LoneStranger on Jul 17, 2009 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions
You work in support?
This is like me calling you because I bought a product, say, a computer, and I’m pissed off that it won’t mow my lawn. Just because people complain more when the A’s lose doesn’t mean it’s warranted.
Ionno but my Reds trade piece which I spent literally a week working on got pushed off the rec list for shit that I spent 15 minutes
Its kinda frustrating actually if you spend a bunch of time on something and it gets pushed off so fast and it kills the debate. It got 7 recs and 98 comments and was ~2800 words but was pushed off by 2 DLDs and a the Braves aren’t idiots post. Rec things that you want the author to keep writing folks not this garbage.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 17, 2009 7:23 PM PDT up reply actions
DLDs clogging up the rec list is a real problem.
This has been discussed elsewhere, but no good solution was arrived at.
One suggestion was that those who rec the DLD ought to unrec it when the next one comes along, but not enough people are heeding that suggestion.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
I think the solution is not to rec the DLDs or other time sensitive stuff
they are time sensitive and don’t need to be up for more time than the regular fANpost list allows. Yeah that is lame because then you don’t get to reward the good writers of DLDs but you could just say they rock in the comments. It just makes me sad because the content that I like (stats, trade, debate centric stuff) requires fermentation time so that there can be a little back and forth. Study after study shows that internet users will not scroll, so if you want to foster that kind of content, keeping it on the front page is really important. The other thing that could help is if articles got promoted to the front page they stopped residing in the rec list.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 17, 2009 7:57 PM PDT up reply actions
As it is these days, it's not like DLDs won't be around for a bit even when they don't get rec'd
It’s not like I can change it but I don’t see any reason why a DLD really NEEDS to be rec’d.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
Thats exactly what im saying
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 17, 2009 8:37 PM PDT up reply actions
LOL
Nice sly humor there, for anyone who remembers who wrote the “Braves aren’t idiots post.”
I will agree, though, that this particular fanpost is an exercise in willful half-assed dimwittery and should never be allowed to push a real fanpost down the screen.
A couple of years ago an a non-rec-list diary would have sunk out of sight in no time flat. Fortunately for you, AN has declined to the point where every fanpost sits around for days before enough people muster up the energy to do their own post and push the others down the list.
That said, the original idea for the DLDs was that people would rec them, those who wished would participate in a topical discussion, and as soon as the next DLD appeared people would unrec the previous DLD to clear space for more serious and more topical items. DLDs were to be like ice sculptures, attractive but intended to be fleeting.
In an ironic twist
I actually gave Flashfire’s AAA HR derby photos the magic 3rd rec that pushed the Reds diary off. The Braves Aren’t Idiots post was a link and a copy and paste job combining three comments that I already wrote and 4 sentences of original content. I am attached to the Reds which literally took a week working on it several hours a day (hell if any of the papers I wrote in college received that kind of effort I would have had much better than a 3.4). The Braves one was just me being angry at people who kept saying that it was a realistic possibility.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 17, 2009 8:07 PM PDT up reply actions
Heh, yeah
I’d noticed you didn’t mention mine the first time. ;-) At least that took a few hours to prepare overall. Though, a 3.4’s nothing to sniff at.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
I didn't mention it because it was a valuable fanpost.
If I didn’t think it was valuable I wouldn’t have rec’d it.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 17, 2009 8:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Would it make you happy if we did?
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 17, 2009 11:05 PM PDT up reply actions
Not just ice sculptures.
All beauty is fleeting, and it should be. The modern age’s desire to pin down beauty and capture it in a fixed medium is the death of beauty. Nothing of worth is permanent. Ephemerality is the essence of worth.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
I'm not sure if I want to tell you nice poem or shut the fk up.
"Gratuitous gesticulating together sounds even better"
Both are valid answers!
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
I agree with you
I put 2 minutes into this post using names off the top of my head. Right or wrong this is a subject people have opinion on.
I know I criticize your posts/comments quite a bit,
and I want to be the first to say that if you were to take an hour or so and put some real work into a post, I would be the first to compliment you for your hard work, even if I disagreed with every single point within the post.
"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jul 18, 2009 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions
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