Holliday for Escobar?
by Arcman on Jul 1, 2009 8:37 AM PDT
117 comments
The Braves has let it be known that they are willing to trade their SS Yunel Escobar for a hitter. The A's should jump on this and try and trade Holliday for him. The Braves do need a outfielder so the fit is perfect. Escobar is no allstar but he has put up constant numbers and has 3 more years left before becoming a free agent. The SS position is hard to find right now so any opportunity to get a good SS should be explored. I have not heard any rumor about the A's asking about Escobar but hopefully Beane will get something going. We could try to include Francorer in the trade a right handed power bat that struggles against righties. The Braves may want Kennedy included in the trade since their 2b has been a trouble spot this year. What does the rest of you think of Escobar?
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I like Escobar a lot.
The details would be key to whether or not a deal would be worthwhile.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on Jul 1, 2009 8:42 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I came over here hoping someone would put up a fanpost of this
Here’s Olney’s little blurb about it:
>1. Yunel Escobar started on the bench for the fourth straight game, largely because of injury and perhaps also because of the team’s frustration with him, as David O’Brien writes. Heard this: The Braves are willing to trade Escobar for a good hitter right now.</blockquote
by stranahanahan on Jul 1, 2009 8:51 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
my only worry
I have him on my strato team and he does get injured. He is a 500 AB guy so about 145 games. I know its a kneee thing in his injury. Knowing the A’s he would be out a long time if they get him because Geren would play him everyday until he got hurt.
by Arcman on Jul 1, 2009 9:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I too like Escobar
however, I want more than just him for Holliday.
by JLopez on Jul 1, 2009 8:53 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
agree, Escobar + +
I know that sounds like a lot for Holliday on a walk year, but any team trading for Holliday will offer him arb, he will reject it and the team will get a comp pick + a 1st or 2nd rounder depending on if the team is a top 15 team or not. Beane is shopping Holliday, regardless of what he is saying that he isn’t shopping him right now. Beane has the upper hand because he knows Holliday is not going to except arb (slim chance he will, we could afford him if so) unlike the DBACKS last year with Dunn.
by ryanmoser on Jul 1, 2009 9:11 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
are you guys crazy?
considering money/years etc, Escobar >> Holliday, not to mention that I doubt the Braves are just looking for a short term fix.
by Elston Gunn on Jul 1, 2009 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You do realize that they were willing to trade Escobar AND MORE for Jake Peavy?
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
by mikev on Jul 1, 2009 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wren should send Jake Peavy flowers for using his NTC there
And very very good German chocolate, if that’s his thing.
That’s the kind of trade that cripples the franchise. Especially if the Braves got Peavy and Furcal.
And, Peavy was a “long term fix,” although that trade would’ve been stupid and asinine as well.
"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden
by Blicks on Jul 1, 2009 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I endorse this statement
signed
DFA
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 12:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not a question of whether we're crazy
it’s whether or not Frank Wren is crazy, and past results are always the best indicator of future performance in this regard. He’s no John Scheuerholz, and he seems motivated to sell Escobar low. If that’s the case, by all means, we should buy low.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on Jul 1, 2009 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
not going to happen
Escobar for Holliday would be a frikin a trade at this point… Asking for more is silly.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 12:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A 3rd team involved would almost be a necessity.
Trading Escobar with no suitable replacement in-house (no, Diory Hernandez and Omar Infante are NOT suitable replacements, period) is equivalent to punting the season.
Wren would be fired immediately for doing Holliday for Escobar. That’s stupider than when Bavasi shipped off Adam Jones, et al. to Baltimore for Bedard.
4.5 years of Yunel Escobar at what he’ll be paid (league minimum in 2010, arb years 1, 2, 3) is worth much much more than a half season of any player not named Albert Pujols (and maybe A-Rod) and the 2 draft picks. Even if the A’s eat Holliday’s salary.
And yes, Escobar is worth much, much more than Brett Wallace, who is AN’s object of affection in Holliday trade rosterbation. Not even close. Especially since Wallace will be a poor defensive 3B, and might (albeit not too likely) have to move to 1B or DH. And he hasn’t hit in the majors yet and there’s always a chance he never will.
Although we don’t know his true defensive level, he’s got a plus bat for a SS, is entering his prime, and actually has done something at the MLB level. In other words, he ain’t moving positions anytime soon unless someone has a truly elite, especially with the glove, SS prospect. Grant Green might be that guy, but Esco’s bat will play at 3B, especially when considering that moving a SS to 3B, a less premium defensive position, will mean that Esco’s defensive numbers will improve there as well.
"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden
by Blicks on Jul 1, 2009 9:25 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
We may have different definitions of suitable, but I'm sure Cabrera is available as well.
Baseball isn't magic.
by rebus on Jul 1, 2009 10:05 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly.
As a “gritty veteran,” Cabrera may have more value in a trade than his statistics suggest. I could see something like this making sense:
Escobar + (a very good) prospect = Holliday, Cabrera, and Wuertz
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on Jul 1, 2009 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's a lot of salary for the Braves to take on suddenly
…considering Holliday’s $13MM, Cabrera’s $4MM, and Wuertz’s $1.1MM. The A’s would have to kick in some money most likely. I’m sure Billy still has the Braves’ bank account info when he shipped lots of money to them for the Kotsay-Devine swap.
I am Ray Fosse's infatuations with Clay Wood and high-definition television.
by franks a lot on Jul 1, 2009 11:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kicking in money is a GREAT idea.
With all the money they’ve saved over the past couple of years, they’re in a great position to do so. NSJ posted about it in the Cards thread, and he’s right.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on Jul 1, 2009 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you would need to in order to get a deal done, let alone any kind of prospect from the Braves.
Baseball isn't magic.
by rebus on Jul 1, 2009 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wed have to take it all on the braves don't have anymore money to spend
Im fine with that but still.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 12:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Divide that in half as Holliday is only owned &mil now and same for the others.
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
by Eastbayjim on Jul 1, 2009 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
One thing people aren't considering...
the difference in leagues. The 105ish OPS + of Escobar probably translates to just below 100 when you put him in the AL. Obviously, a league average hitting shortstop is very valuable, even if he’s a bit injury prone, but I still think that needs to be pointed out. Likewise, Holliday’s stats should get a big boost from leaving the tough league and the tough park. I think Holliday for Escobar is pretty fair value, though I think the Braves would be stupid to go for it the season.
by swatnick on Jul 1, 2009 5:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
OPS+ is park and league adjusted.
if I’m right.
"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden
by Blicks on Jul 1, 2009 5:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it's just park adjusted
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Jul 1, 2009 5:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Aah, thanks.
"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden
by Blicks on Jul 1, 2009 6:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you.
The three-way with the Cardinals suggested in the other thread, makes some sense, but it’s complicated and unlikely.
by Elston Gunn on Jul 1, 2009 11:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right
When I proposed the Braves three way it dealt with Schaffer and Ludwick, not Escobar. If Escobar is involve I really can’t see getting the Cards involved. The A’s would need to offer O Cab, Holliday, + salary relief and Ziggy? for that to work. I can’t see where getting the Cards involved helps things.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 12:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good point
The A’s have some trading chips besides Holliday in Kennedy and Weurtz. The A’s will not give away Holliady because of the draft picks coming back to them. I don’t see Holliday going anywhere until closer to the trading deadline when they can get teams bidding aginst each other.
by Arcman on Jul 1, 2009 9:47 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I would do OCab+Holliday for Escobar in a second
If the Braves really want to get rid of Yunel (and they might: see Peavy trade proposals), I would be ecstatic for the A’s to help facilitate that. And any deal with Yunel not involving Anderson or Cahill I consider highway robbery.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
by vignette17 on Jul 1, 2009 10:02 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Do it
Maybe not with Francour included though. Given how much I’ve needled a friend of mine who’s a Braves fan about him, I can only imagine the howls of laughter that would ensue if I was suddenly “forced” to root for him on my team.
I bet Beane could get Escobar+ for Holliday. Just because we know how valuable Escobar is when factoring in cost controlled years and position scarcity doesn’t mean the Braves do too, and Braves fans (the ones who call in to radio stations and the like) certainly would value Holliday >>>>> Escobar.
There is no gravity - the earth just sucks.
by JLeverenz on Jul 1, 2009 10:08 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, the Braves front office is a bunch of bumbling idiots compared to us.
It’s possible, I guess. Steve Phillips did run a baseball team.
by Elston Gunn on Jul 1, 2009 11:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mike Hampton and whoever the Toronto GM was at the time saved Phillips' ass.
Oh, and the Colorado schools.
He would have destroyed that franchise had either of those ordeals worked out the way he had wanted to.
"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden
by Blicks on Jul 1, 2009 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Toronto?
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Phillips offered David Wright for Jose Cruz Jr.
The Jays GM at the time turned it down
"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden
by Blicks on Jul 1, 2009 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ah didn't know that.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 2:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The point is, the Braves might not view Escobarcost controlled nature
There is no gravity - the earth just sucks.
by JLeverenz on Jul 1, 2009 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Crap, how did that happen?
One moment I’m typing in the subject line and half an instant later it’s posted. sigh
Anyway, what I was trying to say is that the Braves might not consider Escobar’s cost controlled nature (cost-controlledness?) as valuable as the A’s might. For them, getting a superior hitter who can play the outfield – even for just 3 months – might be more important.
It also makes a difference if Escobar really is in Bobby Cox’s doghouse. In that case moving him and getting something good in return might prove more important.
There is no gravity - the earth just sucks.
by JLeverenz on Jul 1, 2009 11:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Happens to me all the time.
Anyway, what I was trying to say is that the Braves might not consider Escobar’s cost controlled nature (cost-controlledness?) as valuable as the A’s might. For them, getting a superior hitter who can play the outfield – even for just 3 months – might be more important.
The improvement from Escobar at SS + crap in LF to Infante/Diorys at SS + Holliday at LF is not too great. Holliday is a much better player than Escobar, but Infante is a utility guy with fluke numbers and Diorys is fresh off the AAAA Brigade and can’t play defense either. This will make the Braves a .500 team, but not much more than that. But if Wren is stupid, I say take advantage of the stupids.
It also makes a difference if Escobar really is in Bobby Cox’s doghouse. In that case moving him and getting something good in return might prove more important.
A good GM isn’t going to allow that to happen. Your manager’s job is NOT to make roster decisions, with the exception of stuff like how many pitchers you carry, etc. His job is to write the lineup cards (although some managers can’t even do that) and make the in game decisions and management.
If you want a picturesque example, think Nick Swisher to the Yankees (ugggghhhhh). In that situation, it would’ve been best to wait until all the 1B/cOF/DH types came off the market, and then trade to whoever was desperate. Or when someone lost their starting 1B/OF (ex: Xavier Nady, Carlos Delgado), trade him then in a desperation move.
"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden
by Blicks on Jul 1, 2009 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bobby Cox use to be the GM of the Braves and Hired Wren's mentor
so I think he may have more ability to influence the roster.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 12:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree, sort of, to some extent
On this part anyway:
A good GM isn’t going to allow that to happen. Your manager’s job is NOT to make roster decisions, with the exception of stuff like how many pitchers you carry, etc. His job is to write the lineup cards (although some managers can’t even do that) and make the in game decisions and management.
While this is maybe how things should work, it’s often the case they work the other way and the Swisher example is a case in point. Cox is a hall of fame manager and a big personality in the Braves organization – if he doesn’t want a player on his team he’s probably going to get his way just as Ozzie did with Swisher.
In that case the A’s should be ready to strike by offering Holliday + Cabrera (addresses your earlier point about the Braves not having a SS to take over.) and get Escobar plus another player or two. BB should also be willing to kick in some money to get better players to go along with Escobar.
There is no gravity - the earth just sucks.
by JLeverenz on Jul 2, 2009 6:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
if you hit enter in the subject line twice it posts
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ahh thanks
That’s almost certainly what happened, I must have hit it accidentally while reaching for the ’ key.
There is no gravity - the earth just sucks.
by JLeverenz on Jul 2, 2009 6:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It wasn't too long ago...
…that the Braves coughed up their “shortstop of the future uber-prospect” Andrus PLUS Saltalamacchia for a Texeira rental. How’d that work out for them? Basically, they traded away solid young talent and got Kotchman in return. WOW. Do we think they’ll be fleeced that way again? If they do this deal, it’s because they know something about Escobar that we don’t (character issues? long-term injury concerns?) and they are not counting on him looking forward anyway. A well-run organization (which the Braves have been for many years) does not get burned the same way twice in a span of 3 years.
by kitoko on Jul 1, 2009 10:18 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Texeira wasn't a rental he was acquired for 1.5 years
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They didn't think of him as a rental when they made the trade, but he ended up being one.
He was a one-season rental instead of a half-season rental (as Holliday would be). He was shipped in the middle of the next season when they realized they couldn’t contend even with Texeira and couldn’t afford to sign him anyway.
by kitoko on Jul 1, 2009 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but
the team’s pitching SUCKED when the Teixeira trade was made. So yeah, that was an awful evaluation of team needs.
And then they compounded that by trading Davies for Dotel (Royals won that trade, easily)
They had Smoltz, Huddy, and then question marks/underperforming young guys in their rotation.
"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden
by Blicks on Jul 1, 2009 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Im just suggesting that the situation isn't analogous
They acquired Teixeira and had a chance to contend for two years with him or trade him after a year for a bounty to regain some of their loss. They cant do that with Holliday.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh yeah, I agree with that.
My bad for missing the point.
"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden
by Blicks on Jul 1, 2009 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Its the internet... it happens all the time... no worries
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 4:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Could we just get Francoeur's magic jockeys, instead?
Oh, and his wife, too, since she does his laundry (women still do that?).
The meaning of life is not so much 'found,' as it is 'made.' --Opus
by The Dogfather on Jul 1, 2009 10:27 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I imagine the call woudl go like this:
Frank Wren – “Billy, we want Holliday. I can send you Escobar…”
Billy Beane – “OKAY LETS FAX OVER THE PAPERWORK TO BUD SELIG RIGHT NOW KTHXBYE”
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
by mikev on Jul 1, 2009 10:28 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I think it'd be more like this:
BB: "Hey, I heard you don’t really want Escobar anymore. Well, I mean, we’d be willing to take him and his salary off your hands, and we’d even throw in a shiny Matt Holliday for your trouble.
FW: hangs up
BB: throws chair
by Elston Gunn on Jul 1, 2009 11:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
BB: Chair hits Bob Geren
…after chair hits Bob – Bob demoted to sac for not making the catch.
by ryanmoser on Jul 1, 2009 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, I don't want Geren near the RiverCats
The good prospects will be up there soon.
Instead, Bob Geren is traded to the Salt Lake City Bees (Angels AAA affiliate) for a PTBNL.
"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden
by Blicks on Jul 1, 2009 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A parolee to be named later?
You’re telling me Elijah Dukes is available? Sold!
by Joey C. on Jul 1, 2009 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow we get a player to be named later? Best Beane trade ever!
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Since when do we trade our crappy players?
WordUpThome: THE HEY-DAY OF RONALD REAGAN-O-NOMICS IS A FINE TIME FOR BIRTH, NUMA NUMA DANCE STAR JOBA CHAMBERLAIN WAS ALSO BORN IN 1985
by Gallagher's Watermelons on Jul 1, 2009 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It sure would be nice to get Escobar
I’m not sure how exactly it would work-out but I could see a few pieces being involved in a Holliday – Escobar swap. I’d imagine the Braves would want a replacement for Escobar and the A’s would probably want to move Cabrera rather than keep him as a back up. Cabrera has been pretty bad so far but he has a history of being a good defender and has shown signs of hitting better lately.
I could also see Francour being inolved in any potential deal because the Braves have appeared desperate to unload him and might look at an Escobar deal as a good way to unload him.
Maybe something like:
Holliday + Cabrera + Cash for Escobar + Francour + Prospect(s)
by DiegoAsFan on Jul 1, 2009 1:19 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Againg that deal isn't a fair one for the Braves
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 2:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not worth it
Beane gets a first rounder and a compensation if he holds on to Holliday. We need a top prospect…
Matt Abedi
by mattabedi on Jul 1, 2009 1:51 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Am I experiencing one of these?
"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden
by Blicks on Jul 1, 2009 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The braves need cash too
For a trade with the braves the A’s would need to send over cash or take one of their bad contracts.
by Arcman on Jul 1, 2009 3:13 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Like they did with Kotsay?
Frankly, as far as I’m concerned, Holliday’s salary is a non-issue. If it needs to be paid to help Atlanta take him on, and it convinces them to send us Escobar and more, fucking DO IT.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
by mikev on Jul 1, 2009 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pure fantasy....
How cool would be if we could flip Holliday+Wuertz+Crosby+Cash for Wallace+Ludwick and then Ludwick+Springer+Kennedy+OCab for Yunel? Maybe add in a couple C+ prospects from either side (Patterson to Cards, Spencer-type from Braves/Cards).
2010 lineup:
Buck RF
Yunel SS
Cust DH
Ellis 2b
Suzuki C
Wallace 3b
Cunningham LF
Barton 1b
Sweeney CF
Plus Cardenas, Carter, Doolittle, Brown, Donaldson in AAA.
Okay, rosterbation and crack pipe dream over. Carry on with your usual business.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
by vignette17 on Jul 1, 2009 3:33 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Wait, let me get this straight.
Traded away:
Holliday
Weurtz
Crosby
Springer
Kennedy
Cabera
Ludwick
Acquired:
Ludwick
Escobar
Wallace
I’m not sure that works.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
by mikev on Jul 1, 2009 3:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Doesn't work for which side?
I would be happy with that from the A’s side. I mean take Ludwick out of the equation since he is acquired and immediately flipped. Crosby has zero value, Cabrera almost zero value and Springer and Kennedy a tiny bit of value, but not very much. That makes the deal essentially Escobar and Wallace for Holliday and Wuertz. With the number of years of team control the A’s would have for our new left side of the infield that seems like a pretty good return. We would almost certainly have to cover salary for the players going to the Braves as well, but anything we could do to land Escobar (that does not cut into our good young pitching) should be done — if it can be.
by AsFanInLA on Jul 1, 2009 4:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It doesn't work for the Braves
They get a gaping hole at SS after this year, a guy that was DFAed less than 6 months ago, a middling reliever, an old SS in the worst year of his career and is a pending free agent they cant offer arb to to get picks, and a guy nobody on this board besides me thinks is anything more than a AAAA fluke. Yeah im so giving up one of the best young short stops in the game for that.
Except not.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They'll be able to offer arbitration to Cabrera
No way in hell Cabrera ranks as a type A free agent, but he might rank as a type B which would mean the Braves would get a compensation pick if they offered. Cabreras contract only states that you can’t offer him arbitration if he’s a type A player.
Matt Abedi
by mattabedi on Jul 1, 2009 9:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even if he was Type B, he would accept.
His defense is also piss poor this year, which is where all his value lies.
If he goes into the open market, he’ll get much less than he did this year.
"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden
by Blicks on Jul 2, 2009 7:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
As far as I'm concerned,
Holliday + Cabrera + salary for Y. Escobar would be a beautiful deal for the A’s. And it’s not impossible considering the “doghouse factor” — back when the Braves were talking about Peavy, they thought they were signing Furcal and they liked Escobar a lot more than they do now.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 1, 2009 4:20 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Frankly, I'd want *something* as well as Escobar.
Yes, Escobar is a top tier SS but we’re talking about the best hitter on the trade block PLUS draft picks PLUS Cabrera PLUS money?
I dunno that Escobar is THAT valuable.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
by mikev on Jul 1, 2009 4:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
okay we also get
that hanson guy(I tink he is with the Braves the SP right?)dreaming
HILLIS
by robbo650 on Jul 1, 2009 5:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Escobar is a top tier SS?
Did I miss something? Since when is a guy with a 106 OPS+ in the National League a top tier SS? He only has one more year under control and then he enters arbitration. For Holliday? It’s not worth it. Give me Brett Wallace and Jason Motte from the Cardinals instead.
Matt Abedi
by mattabedi on Jul 1, 2009 9:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Since a league average bat + average defense SS is worth nearly 3 Wins.
Thats when.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 10:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Care to share where u get your numbers from?
That number seems arbitrary. Baseball-Reference.com gives Escobar an extremely low number for BtWins for the Braves.
Matt Abedi
by mattabedi on Jul 2, 2009 12:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure
0 Batting runs above average + 0 Defensive runs above average + 20 runs for replacement level + 7.5 runs for position = 2.75 WAR.
Except that Escobar has never posted a below average wOBA and this year if he continues at this pace over 600 PA he is worth 9.5 RAA at the plate, making him a 3.7 win player, which is pretty damn excellent.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 2, 2009 7:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
mattabedi, you also have to look at the fact that Escobar
is having a down year for him and not extrapolate everything from his 2009 performance. His career line is .300/.367/.423, he’s a true leadoff or #2 hitter, and he has been known as a solid defensive SS. That would all benefit the A’s greatly.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 2, 2009 8:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure that this is really a down year for him
His numbers are better than what he put up last year. The only reason he is below his career numbers is because in 94 games in his rookie year he put up a .367 BABIP which looks pretty unsustainable. It’s hard to say this early in his career but I would expect that the Escobar from ’08 and ’09 is pretty much what we should expect from him.
by DiegoAsFan on Jul 2, 2009 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You beat me to it, dfa
"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden
by Blicks on Jul 2, 2009 8:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Positional advantage and defense.
Here’s the defensive spectrum, from most premium to least premium:
C-SS-CF-2B-3B-RF-LF-1B-DH
Example: If you can get close to league average OPS+ and wOBA+ (both park adjusted) from a starting catcher, that’s very good offense from that spot, due to the rigor of that position. Outside of M&M and Posada, really few starting catchers pull that off and those who do are freaking good.
In the AL then, that leaves us with only Scutaro (I think 2009 is a fluke though), Bartlett, Asdrubal Cabrera, and Jeter as SS who are offensively superior to Escobar. NL guys would be Tejada, Reyes (injured), Rollins (sucking this year), Hanley, Hardy, and Tulo (not sure if he’s offensively superior, most of his elite value lies in his defense).
That’s a pretty small list considering how many teams there are.
"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden
by Blicks on Jul 2, 2009 8:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
agreed
he’s had enough MLB ABs to suggest that he’s probably not going to be a bust, and he seems to be a good player. great? certainly not at this point (though, obviously, he’s young and could get much better). however, you get one of the best hitters in baseball AND 2 picks. that’s worth a lot, and irrespective of how good many of us think escobar COULD be, its worth more than what he is right now, which is a decent SS.
by guy incognito on Jul 1, 2009 5:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't give up Holliday
for less than Escobar, Hanson, Schaefer and McClouth. If we’re giving up one of the best hitting LFs in the game, we need a replacement (McClouth), and we need a couple throw-in prospects too.
by Elston Gunn on Jul 1, 2009 8:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can safely say that if I were the A's, I would accept that trade.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 1, 2009 8:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I might want Javy Vasquez too, but that part's negotiable. :-)
by Elston Gunn on Jul 1, 2009 9:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Frank Wren would. . .
appreciate how reasonable you are.
by el generico on Jul 2, 2009 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A few things
Escobar is a good player but not great. You can not see him anymore than what he is now a .280 hitter with a .350 oba and maybe 10 homeruns. He is a good defensive ss but not gold glove. He has had injuries so there is a down side. The braves are willing to trade him. So why couldn’t the A’s trade for him in a package for Holliday when the braves do need outfield help.
by Arcman on Jul 1, 2009 5:46 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Duchscherer
A few questions?
What value does Duchscherer have?
Would some team take him on a chance that he is healthy for August, Sep and the playoffs.
As a free Agent is he a B compinsation type?
If he was throwing like last year, would he become the # 2 starter on the Phil’s, Mets or maybe # 3 on the Cards.
If, and as always it is a big if, Duchscherer is throwing off the mound or throwing in the minors in three weeks, is he as good a pickup as a much rumored Penny or Washburn?
With as this talk about larger deals, I thought this might add an option.
by dougald1 on Jul 1, 2009 7:54 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
i don't think he has much value,
but i still hold out hope for him
by Elston Gunn on Jul 1, 2009 8:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He might be a august waiver type deal.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 10:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I kind doubt that
If he shows enough by August that some team would be willing to trade something for him, I imagine he would not pass through waivers. By that time he will have so little left on his contract that if he looks like he can play I think a lot of teams would put a claim on him.
Most August deals involve players with big contracts where teams want to trade rather then place a claim so they can get some cash in the deal.
by DiegoAsFan on Jul 1, 2009 11:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is true
but this year the economy is different so I think teams that aren’t interested in him will be more reticent to try to block a trade knowing that they could be on the hook for a million bucks.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 11:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly.
And, remember, Adam Dunn passed through most of the NL.
Chad Bradford, good reliever, passed through the AL and got all the way to the Rays (any team not named slegnA could’ve blocked the claim).
Duke will get through.
"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden
by Blicks on Jul 2, 2009 7:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If he doesn't we can still make a trade with the claiming team.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 2, 2009 7:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your kidding right!!!
He has no trade value!!!!!
by granja on Jul 1, 2009 8:57 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
What about his kidding?
Duchscherer always pitches great when he’s healthy and could be healthy in August and September — making him potentially an excellent pickup for a contending team.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 1, 2009 9:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I was a GM on a contender...
If I was a GM on a contender, I would pick up Duchscherer in July and not wait until August. Sure, it is a gamble, but Duchscherer will only have about a million bucks left on his deal. If you wait until August he might not get through waivers.
Does Duchscherer have more value as a reliever? or a stater?
Teams like the Yanks, Mets would kill to have a 7th or 8th inning guy that is lights out.
A guy with postseason experiance..
For the A’s it is faster getting Duchscherer to be a reliever.
All this is very much up in the air until he starts throwing off the mound.
by dougald1 on Jul 2, 2009 5:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
problem is you cant trade a player on the DL
other than that I agree.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 2, 2009 7:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure you can.
Denorfia was on the DL when we traded Marcus McBeth for him.
It just requires special approval by the Commissioner’s Office, I think.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
by mikev on Jul 2, 2009 8:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's a special dispensation when
Shakespearean players are involved. It was part of the 1582 CBA.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 2, 2009 8:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmm I thought thats why we had to wait to trade Bradford for Payton till he came off the DL
could it be because Denorfia was on the minor league disabled list?
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 2, 2009 8:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure the exact rules involved, I just know it's happened.
I remember thinking it was strange that we gave up a reliever with decent upside for a guy who was out for a year because of TJ surgery.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
by mikev on Jul 2, 2009 9:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kurt Ainsworth
A few years back the Giants traded him while he was on the DL (I think he was pretty surprised they could do that, too) when they acquired Sydney Ponson.
No rule against it, it’s just unusual for obvious reasons – you generally don’t want an injured player.
by Faust on Jul 2, 2009 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There damn well should be a rule against it
Acquiring Sidney Ponson, I mean.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 2, 2009 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cox would have to be really pissed off at Escobar to push for his departure
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Jul 2, 2009 12:49 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I'd love to see him on the A's.
He is a good all around player…not outstanding in any one area but still an improvement over our current SS IMO.
Plus I like the kid. We went to Atlanta a few years ago and I got his autograph on a ball. He is a friendly sort.
by IM4Oakgal on Jul 2, 2009 1:44 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Hey, guess who is mashing and plays 3b with good defense?
Andy Marte. I’m not saying, I’m just saying…
"If Bowden was a general contractor, he'd build houses with nine bedrooms, six garages, no bathrooms, and half a roof."
by DyeLongJustice on Jul 2, 2009 8:30 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
"par-TAY with Marte!"
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 2, 2009 8:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jello jiggler with Zielger?
"If Bowden was a general contractor, he'd build houses with nine bedrooms, six garages, no bathrooms, and half a roof."
by DyeLongJustice on Jul 2, 2009 8:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Failey Daily with --"
No, I don’t care for that one.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 2, 2009 8:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Braves would love Holliday but....
…only if they could sign him to an extension for a “reasonable” amount and that’s not going to happen with a certain agent in the mix. Despite his meh A’s performance, Holliday is worth a LOT for a host of NL teams.
I live in Atlanta and the Tex trade still leaves a bitter taste in Braves fans’ mouths so no way do they spring for a 3 month or less rental.
by itsgemme on Jul 2, 2009 8:53 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Don't forget the Great Taste that Atlanta has for the Tim Hudson killing they gave us
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
by Eastbayjim on Jul 2, 2009 10:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really don't know how much interest the Braves have in Holliday
and it’s very likely that they are not willing to meet the A’s price for a rental player. But I really doubt the GM puts much stock in what kind of taste an individual move will leave in fans’ mouths when looking at trade possibilities.
by DiegoAsFan on Jul 2, 2009 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
With all the negative press on Escobar, the majority of the less knowledgeable fans probably wants him canned NOW and will celebrate when that happens.
"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden
by Blicks on Jul 2, 2009 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
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