Possible Trade Partners: St. Louis Cardinals
This is the second in what hopefully be a robust series of fanposts on potential trade partners as the deadline approaches. The St. Louis Cardinals currently lead the NL central by two games with a record of 40 and 34. While the members of the Cardinals front office certainly do not suffer from the same "head is already in the guillotine" that Omar Minaya must feel, they have not made the playoffs since their 2006 WS, which was under a different GM (Walt Jocketty who they let go due to "divisiveness", so they do have something to prove. Lets look at their needs.
Looking at Fangraphs their offense is 10 Runs below average. Their starters are faring well, but their relievers are the third worst in the bigs. According to the St. Louis Post Dispatch their needs are Matt Holliday. The Cardinals have been the most heavily rumored destination for our underwhelming slugger. The interesting part of the article is the proposed package coming back to Oakland.
Reluctant to commit a multi-player Rockies vs Athletics coverage package to the Colorado Rockies for Holliday last November, the Cardinals are now open to sending a similar package to Oakland for the 2007 National League batting champion.
Such a package would probably include right fielder Ryan Ludwick and either reliever Jason Motte, Chris Perez or Kyle McClellan, plus a prospect.
While the MLB players involved are not barn burners and are having poor seasons, that package could be essentially what the A's gave up for Holliday in the first place, though Chris Perez the most talented reliever was traded in the Derosa deal Motte is still a talented but struggling reliever (though cheaper and less proven than Street), I would prefer Ludwick over Smith despite the expense and him currently sucking (by which I mean outhitting most of our current players),
The A's starting pitching next year should give the team the ability to contend. The A's do not have an playoff quality left field bat on the roster or stashed in AAA (Buck has not shown the abilty to hit or stay healthy and Cunningham has not given me the confidence that he could be a three win player next year. Depending on both seems like a risk a team trying to make the playoffs can't afford. Ludwick's ZIPs projection for the rest of the year sow a rebound from what in a down year is still a 94 OPS + and outhitting much of the team. While Ludwick's arby award will probably be around 4.5 million it would definitely be affordable. What the question becomes is who would the third part be.
The final question is the who the final prospect would be; here is sickles list of top Cardinals prospects.
4) Daryl Jones, OF, Grade B: I buy into the improvement being real. Has always had the tools and skills improved rapidly this year. This is an aggressive grade but I’m comfortable with it.
6) Jon Jay, OF, Grade B-: I like him more than a lot of people, but I think he can play center and put up solid numbers. Another aggressive grade, but both Jay and Jones have impressed me and I think both tend to be underrated..
11) Pete Kozma, SS, Grade C+: I rather like him and I think he might end up being a better hitter than people think.
12) David Freese, 3B, Grade C+: An older prospect and plate discipline looks spotty, but he has power and a good glove at third.
14) Allen Craig, 3B, Grade C+: A personal favorite, could rank as high as 9 or 10 depending on criteria. I think he’ll hit, though glove isn’t the best and he’s got a lot of competition.
Looking at the depleated farm I would think that the hope of many A's fans, Wallace, would be untouchable as the final piece. Daryl Jones had a break out year in 2008 but is struggling in AA. Picking up Jones might interfere with Corey Brown's assent as they are at the same level and Brown is actually hitting, where as Jones' .760 OPS in AA is helped by about .060 worth of luck and park effects. Jones would probably not be a more than an average defender in center but could be a plus defender in the corners, and there is some speculation that he is playing there primarily because Rasmus is in CF already, though he does have excellent speed. Finally I believe that his power is suspect to be considered a excellent corner outfielder.
Jones has more upside than Jon Jay, the Cards other non-Rasmus CF prospect, but Jay is in AAA and though not hitting excellently is performing satisfactorily if you neutralize for park and luck. He would need to spend the rest of the year in AAA with a cup of coffee after Sacramento's playoffs but could compete with Sweeney for the starting CF job as soon as spring training. There is a fundamental question though, is Sweeney better than Jay? Thats hard to say. Sweeney has put up fairly good numbers as a centerfielder this year with a UZR of 3.3 RAA so far despite being labeled a tweener. If that is his true talent level and his -4.8 mark last year was a fluke then that would negate Jay's ability to be a +10 RAA defender in center according to Sean Smith's Total Zone rating. Jay is the same age as Sweeney and has generally put up slightly better numbers with the caveat that Sweeney was severely rushed and Jay had a much worse age related to league. The problem is when you are dreaming on prospects and you aren't sure if they are going to be better than your current crappy player, you are destine for a let down. I think that Jay could be a better player than Sweeney, but like Sweeney I have a hard time projecting him to be more than a 2 WAR player.
I do not think that Wallace would be included due to a need for a starting 3bman as soon as opening day. Additionally, I am not a big fan of Wallace anyway since I don't believe that his bat profiles nearly as well at 1b or DH where I believe he will he will end up defensively.
Though I see a need for a power hitting corner outfielder that others who have more faith in Buck and Cunningham don't, generally these teams don't match up well. St. Luis is an older team without much cost controlled talent at the major league level and a weak farm system. For me the question is two fold: 1 Do you believe in Jones or Jay enough to make the trade and 2 Can the A's get a better return from another team. If you believe in Jones or Jay then I think you make a Holliday trade. I don't believe in them enough to deal with St. Louis without the inclusion of at least one of Craig or Kozma since I am not a big fan of Freese.
Now if St. Louis wanted to address its deficient bullpen where it just traded a key arm away and by RAR is the fourth worst pen in the majors that would be a different story. The with anyone besides Andrew Baily, the aforementioned prospects would be much more sufficient. For Wuertz I would want Jay or Jones, as he has proven to be a dominant reliever this year who is under team control for two more years. The same goes for Zigler due to his 5 years of team control left. But for others including Breslow, Springer, Edgar Gonzalez, Cameron, and Casilla, Freese, Craig, or Kozma would be plenty.
6 recs |
228 comments
Comments
Thanks again. I hope you keep doing these.
Trading Holliday for Ludwick+ is only slightly better than Teix for Kotchman. I think it’s a bad deal unless Wallace is involved, and I’m not that big a Wallace fan anyway. I would be interested in something like a Holliday, Sweeney and Wuertz/Ziggy/Gio for Rasmus trade, but I know that will never happen.
I’d probably do Wuertz for Kozma, and would trade any of the other non-Ziggy/Bailey relievers for him in a heartbeat. It’d be nice to have at least one guy (signed) in our system with the upside of average SS.
by Elston Gunn on Jun 30, 2009 4:45 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Glad they are appreciated.
I feel like Ludwick Motte and Jones/Jay is significantly better than Kotchman for Tex. First it spreads the risk better, secondly Jones/Jay both in themselves have upsides higher than Kotchman, third Kotchman had a significant injury history, fourth Ludwick is essentially Kotchman, and finally the A’s get back almost exactly what they lost in acquiring Holliday.
As for Wuertz I would probably want Kozma + Freese/Craig, preferably Craig or Jones or Jay. He looks to be a 2.2 WAR bullpen arm which is extremely good.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jun 30, 2009 4:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's definitely a better deal
but considering that the market for Holliday is much bigger (who but LAA were realistically going to trade for Teix?), it seems only a little better to me.
you’re at least implying that Jones and Jay are roughly equal prospects to Car-Gon. would you say that’s accurate? if that’s true, then Ludwick, Motte, Jones/Jay is decent, and Ludwick, Jones/Jay, Kozma would be great.
by Elston Gunn on Jun 30, 2009 7:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They are both similar but slightly less accomplished than Car-gon
but I think that Ludwick>Smith by a lot to the point that it outweighs Street> Motte and Cargon> Jones/Jay. Ludwick Kozma Jones would be a great deal.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 10:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No Ludwick
We don’t need another 1 year wonder unless wallace is part of the trade. Ludwick has always struggled with OBA and average. He is just another Cust without OBA. Maybe if its Schumacher who is a good hitter.
by Arcman on Jun 30, 2009 4:53 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Personally Im just so not interested in .350 wOBA players...
Thats what that statement says. Ludwick is fairly cost controlled player who ZIPS project have a .362 wOBA the rest of the way. Im not saying that he is as good as his 2008 but if he plays like he did in 2007 he is worth 12.5 above league average with a bat. Now in LF there is a 10 run penalty for position but you pick up 20 runs from replacement and his defense can probably be counted on for another 5 to -7.5 runs making him a three win player.
Im not sure why the Cards would trade their starting 2bman especially if he is a good hitter.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jun 30, 2009 5:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
projects??
Giambi projects to be a 30 homer guy with a 400 oba but he is not this year. Ludwick had 1 good season and now has gone back to his true stats.
by Arcman on Jun 30, 2009 9:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes projection... its this thing where you use history and math to make a guess about the future....
Every projection system except for the Oliver projections showed Giambi declining this year. Coupled with his awful defense they showed him being a very mediocre to poor player. Infact ZIPs projected him to only finish with 18 HRs which is about what would happen if you double his season and not one projection system suggested he would have a 400 OBA.
Get your facts straight.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jun 30, 2009 11:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
miss the point
Projections mean nothing on a 1 year player. You must also factor in stadium and switching league and hitters around that player. You also need to factor in 3 years of constant playing time. There is no way anyone could get a true projection on Ludwick. The projection of his stats is a complete guess.
by Arcman on Jul 1, 2009 8:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No...
The projection of his stats is a complete guess.
This is just wrong. Yes it is an estimation but there is significant amount of data including park and league that goes into projections.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 8:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I did this projection wrong
positional adjustment for corner OF is -7.5 runs which makes it way easier for him to be a three win player. 12.5 BRAA + 20 Replacement + 5 fielding – 7.5 positional adjustment is a very attainable 3 WAR.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jun 30, 2009 11:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If the deal is Ludwick and Jones/Jay, the first question is,
“Can the A’s do better?” either for overall talent and/or for addressing their most urgent needs. I would gamble “yes,” personally, because Ludwick is no sure panacea, and I’m not gung ho over either prospect. For me, too “meh” to pull the trigger on your best trade chip, and on the best hitting chip on the market.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jun 30, 2009 4:58 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I think this deal is essentially what the A's gave up for Holliday...
but at the same time Im pretty meh about the return though I do like Ludwick, Motte has closer stuff when he has an idea where it is going, and before I started writing this I was higher on Jones and Jay (which is one of the reasons why I do these things so my opinions of prospects becomes more informed.)
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jun 30, 2009 5:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If they're really looking to make a push this year
And they balked at Wallace, then I’d offer them up a reliever of the Breslow/Ziegler/Wuertz mold, ask for Wallace and a prospect to even the deal out.
by NateHST on Jun 30, 2009 5:03 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Wallace or nothing.
"Their Triple-A rotation, led by Trevor Cahill and Brett Anderson, could be better than some big-league rotations; Michael Ynoa is the best Latin American prospect of the decade; 2008 draftees Jemile Weeks and Rashun Dixon bring much-needed tools to an advanced group of hitters." - BaseballProspectus.com
by Syphon on Jun 30, 2009 5:05 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Why?
If they offer Rasmus you don’t want him?
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jun 30, 2009 5:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How about Wallace or Rasmus for Hollday or nothing
The thing is, The A’s don’t have to sell, and definately don’t need to sell low. The A’s don’t need more outfielders unless it is a good young CF with a bat and defense.
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
by Eastbayjim on Jun 30, 2009 5:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The wont offer Rasmus.
"Their Triple-A rotation, led by Trevor Cahill and Brett Anderson, could be better than some big-league rotations; Michael Ynoa is the best Latin American prospect of the decade; 2008 draftees Jemile Weeks and Rashun Dixon bring much-needed tools to an advanced group of hitters." - BaseballProspectus.com
by Syphon on Jun 30, 2009 7:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right but to say Wallace or nothing is silly.
The Cardinals could give us Jess Todd, Peter Kozma, Jay, and Jones which would be an amazing package.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jun 30, 2009 11:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We need impact bats.
And at 3rd base. How convenient.
"Their Triple-A rotation, led by Trevor Cahill and Brett Anderson, could be better than some big-league rotations; Michael Ynoa is the best Latin American prospect of the decade; 2008 draftees Jemile Weeks and Rashun Dixon bring much-needed tools to an advanced group of hitters." - BaseballProspectus.com
by Syphon on Jul 1, 2009 12:36 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No we need an impact everything next year
we have one out of nine positions (Suzuki) covered by a healthy and realistically projected 3 WAR or more player. I would argue that SS should be a far bigger priority given the availability of good free agent third basemen this coming off season and the fact that Cardenas can likely fill the position.
You are being really short sighted.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 12:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
should be one out of 8 we got pitching covered too.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 12:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How am I being short sighted?
"Their Triple-A rotation, led by Trevor Cahill and Brett Anderson, could be better than some big-league rotations; Michael Ynoa is the best Latin American prospect of the decade; 2008 draftees Jemile Weeks and Rashun Dixon bring much-needed tools to an advanced group of hitters." - BaseballProspectus.com
by Syphon on Jul 1, 2009 9:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
by looking for prospects at only one position when we basically suck everywhere?
not to mention that, as dfa says, our options at SS are worse than those at 3B
by Elston Gunn on Jul 1, 2009 10:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We dont suck everywhere for position players..
in the minors. I expect Cunningham/Buck/Doolittle/Cardenas/Weeks/Carter to all be above average offensive players. How ever none of them other than Carter are impact bats. Wallace has 30HR potential and we are pretty set on pitching.
"Their Triple-A rotation, led by Trevor Cahill and Brett Anderson, could be better than some big-league rotations; Michael Ynoa is the best Latin American prospect of the decade; 2008 draftees Jemile Weeks and Rashun Dixon bring much-needed tools to an advanced group of hitters." - BaseballProspectus.com
by Syphon on Jul 1, 2009 12:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cardenas will play 3b next year
Buck and Cunningham have a lot to prove. Doolittle and Carter shouldn’t be on the big club until mid to late 2010 and later for Weeks. So basically you want to block Cardenas with a prospect that at best is marginally better than him, ignoring crucial positions like CF, SS, or COF where we don’t have anything that projects to be any good.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 12:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
CF/SS/COF
Brown/Green and Buck/Cunningham cover those spots. Cardenas can play 3B/2B/SS he will find a spot. He will not be blocked by anyone.
"Their Triple-A rotation, led by Trevor Cahill and Brett Anderson, could be better than some big-league rotations; Michael Ynoa is the best Latin American prospect of the decade; 2008 draftees Jemile Weeks and Rashun Dixon bring much-needed tools to an advanced group of hitters." - BaseballProspectus.com
by Syphon on Jul 1, 2009 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Brown is a huge bust candidate and has been hurt
Green isn’t even signed and won’t be ready to start until Opening Day 2011 at the earliest, and Im not a huge fan anyway. Buck has sucked and is always hurt. Cunningham has sucked (less chances than Buck) and is always hurt. Cardenas can’t play SS if you have Wallace at 3b if he can play it at all. What are you going to do with Ellis who really when healthy is our only other player besides Suzuki that projects to be 3+ WAR
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Isn't a healthy Cust at DH very nearly 3 WAR?
Baseball isn't magic.
by rebus on Jul 1, 2009 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
IF he rebounds though.
Big big big if.
And he loses value if hes in the field ever.
"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden
by Blicks on Jul 1, 2009 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Brown's also put up great number in the biggest jump in the minors.
"Their Triple-A rotation, led by Trevor Cahill and Brett Anderson, could be better than some big-league rotations; Michael Ynoa is the best Latin American prospect of the decade; 2008 draftees Jemile Weeks and Rashun Dixon bring much-needed tools to an advanced group of hitters." - BaseballProspectus.com
by Syphon on Jul 1, 2009 4:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And cant stay on the field long enough for us to tell if its a fluke.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 10:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's had a 840+ OPS every stop hes been.
And 940 so far this year. He can hit. And why is it whenever a players gets hurt hes labeled “injury prone”? Is that your only argument against him? Cuase if it is its pretty weak.
"Their Triple-A rotation, led by Trevor Cahill and Brett Anderson, could be better than some big-league rotations; Michael Ynoa is the best Latin American prospect of the decade; 2008 draftees Jemile Weeks and Rashun Dixon bring much-needed tools to an advanced group of hitters." - BaseballProspectus.com
by Syphon on Jul 2, 2009 12:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Look I like Corey Brown a lot
I loved the pick when it was draft time and I thought he would be able to control his strike outs moving forward. However, to deny the potential for good offspead pitches to make him look ugly as some scouting reports suggested he would in the high minors by citing 152 AB broken up by injury is silly. For example he has half the ABs as Chris Carter does playing in Midland. Nowhere did I say that he was injury prone. However, every injury is predictive of a propensity for injury, to what extent it is predictive depends on the type and circumstance of the injury.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 2, 2009 7:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Weeks at CF?
I remember (I think I remember at least) that there was talk that when Weeks was drafted that he might be moved to CF. Any word on this?
Don't sweat it. I'm illiterate.
by methodrampage on Jul 1, 2009 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah but by the time Weeks gets here you have to move Wallace off third
Which means that Cardenas has to move to third and you need a second basemen. Moving Weeks to CF will only happen if the A’s find a long term answer to 3b that isn’t Cardenas or his defense proves to be inadequate at 2b. However I hear good things about his defensive work in Stockton.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We're nowhere near as bad at SS as we are at 3b ...
the only saving grace at 3b is that it’s typically a relatively easy position to fill on the cheap.
Petit and Pennington are basically the equivalent of Hannahan — with some extra upside, given that they haven’t yet had the opportunity to prove definitively that they aren’t better than there is any reason to think they are.
In the lower minors, Leyja and Coleman offer reason for optimism down the road at SS, Jason Christian is the best prospect at 3b — he has far less to offer than either Leyja or Coleman.
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on Jul 1, 2009 3:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cardenas?
low-A Coleman and short season Leyja (who probably isn’t a short stop) offer little hope of being the answer, at least not for a long, long time while, at least in my mind, Cardenas is a better 3B prospect than Wallace, who everybody wants so badly. Green is something for sure, but I’d rather have Adrian. I don’t know why people still talk about him like he’s just a 2B. He is our 3B of the future if things go to plan.
by Elston Gunn on Jul 1, 2009 3:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because for the most part, it's easier to find a good 3B than it is a good 2B.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
by mikev on Jul 1, 2009 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cardenas is worth a lot less at 3b than 2b ...
I don’t think there’s any reason to think he can’t stick at 2b … the only reason he’d play 3b is to make room for Weeks …
Which, of course, brings us to the reason we shouldn’t care too much about the whole at third — not because we have anything at all coming up in the minors to fill it — but because it’s a fallback position, generally manned by failed SS/2b/sometimes C prospects, rather than 3b prospects …
I do wonder, though, why Sean Doolittle never has been tried at 3b … he’d seem like a better choice there than Chris Carter …
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on Jul 1, 2009 4:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mike Squires!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 1, 2009 4:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ah ... yeah, that'd do it ...
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on Jul 1, 2009 5:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think that is true
The positional adjustments are the same so unless his defense is significantly worse it really doesn’t matter where he plays. He would be a good defender at third do to solid hands and good arm. His range is his problem playing SS. He would play 3rd next year to make room for Ellis who if he is healthy is a 3-4 WAR player. Additionally there are much better fall back options on the Free Agent market so you don’t have to make the decision on whether you want Cardenas at third to start the year till the off season at the latest.
Doolittle is a lefty making the whole third base thing hard.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 4:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Doolittle at 3rd
You know I was thinking about this today, because Doolittle and Wallace are almost exactly the same age, and Doolittle has more professional hitting experience and, at the same time, might well be at a steeper part of his learning curve (that is, more “upside”) since he didn’t focus on hitting in college. I think their minor league stats are roughly comparable.
I know he’s a lefty, but as Nico points out, Mike Squires played some games at 3B, and hell, why not give it a shot? If he were a RH that’s definitely where he’d be playing.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Jul 1, 2009 4:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well he is hurt now and playing 3rd as a lefty just doesn't really work
I would prefer not to mess around with stuff I know is going to fail.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 4:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure we do know that it's going to fail
MIke Squires only played 38 innings at 3B, but he fielded his 12 career chances flawlessly, FWIW.
There are practical problems, the biggest of which would be charging rollers and bunts, and throwing to 1st or 2nd on balls hit down the line. On the other hand (haha) he’d have an easier time fielding balls hit down the 3B line, and he’d have a much easier time going to his left and either throwing to 1st or 2nd than a RH would.
The word is that he’s got tremendous hands at 1st and moves well, and he certainly has a good arm.
Baseball is a very hidebound game — look at what Outman said about his former pitching motion: it worked, and it kept his arm healthy, but it “looked funny” so no GM would draft him. The lack of LH 3Bs historically doesn’t prove that a LH 3B couldn’t succeed; I think it’s just one of those things that GMs prefer not to think about, because they have lots of things they do need to think about and they like putting things in the “don’t need to think about that” list because thinking makes their brains hurt.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Jul 1, 2009 4:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I was playing against a LH third baseman I would bunt all day.
Yes it would be easier to field grounders down the line buy you would have to flip your body around completely to make a throw likely negating the value of catching a lot of those balls by being unable to get the ball across the diamond in time.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 5:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, okay, you can try that
It may not really be fair to the Rivercats, but if they give up a bunch of bunt singles over the course of a few weeks, well, so what?
And unless you’re Brett Butler, hitters bunting all the time is fine with me. Many major league hitters (and, I’d imagine AAA hitters) are lousy bunters, and the best case scenario on a bunt is an infield single. RH 3Bs play 15 feet deeper than the bag all the time and hitters don’t drop bunts down, despite the fact that a properly-executed bunt is pretty much an automatic hit in that situation.
So you might get lots of infield singles. You might also get lots of 0-1 and 1-2 counts when guys miss bunts or foul them off. And maybe Doolittle can actually make that play better than we think.
Everyone thought they could bunt Jim Abbott to death, too. Turned out he was so quick switching the glove under his right armpit that he was a very capable fielder. But no one knew that until he proved it on the field.
Speculation and bias are easy. But the point is, there have probably been fewer than 50 innings played by a left-handed 3B in high minors/major leagues in the last 50 years. We don’t actually have any empirical data on the effect of a LH at 3B. Why shouldn’t someone actually find out what happens when you put a LH there? And why shouldn’t the team that tries that be the A’s, who have 1 3B prospect in their system (who actually would be one of the best 2B prospects around if they left him at his natural position), a massive hole at 3B in the majors, and a glut of young 1B prospects, including one who’s reputedly a tremendous 1B and, as a former pitcher (and sometimes RF) clearly has the arm to throw across the diamond?
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Jul 1, 2009 5:45 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Hmm...Maybe the best solution
is to cut off Doolittle’s right arm and then put him at 3B.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 1, 2009 8:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Oakland Amputees?
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
by mrod on Jul 1, 2009 10:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
One less body part to get injured ...
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on Jul 1, 2009 10:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, maybe
But there is the issue of phantom limb injury.
A fractured sinus is nothing to sneeze at.
by somebodyelse on Jul 2, 2009 1:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wrote a long fanpost about this a while back.
Feel free to disagree with what I said (and what DFA says below, which I totally agree with), but you can’t just say that Cardenas is worth a lot less as a 3B without backing it up.
by Elston Gunn on Jul 1, 2009 8:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"We're nowhere near as bad at SS as we are at 3b ... "
that was my feelings as well.
"Their Triple-A rotation, led by Trevor Cahill and Brett Anderson, could be better than some big-league rotations; Michael Ynoa is the best Latin American prospect of the decade; 2008 draftees Jemile Weeks and Rashun Dixon bring much-needed tools to an advanced group of hitters." - BaseballProspectus.com
by Syphon on Jul 1, 2009 4:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hannahan is a 2 WAR player at third
Cardenas can play above that IMO. If we really want a third baseman sign Beltre to a 1 year prove your healthy deal we have the money.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 4:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love you, dfa
You agree with me about everything. You must be a genius!
by Elston Gunn on Jul 1, 2009 8:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks I try.
Ive enjoyed a lot of your posts since you joined AN… glad the feeling is mutual.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 11:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Self-proclaimed genius, eh? ;-)
"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden
by Blicks on Jul 2, 2009 7:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So we want more Hanahans? Is that it?
Way to shoot for the stars.
"Their Triple-A rotation, led by Trevor Cahill and Brett Anderson, could be better than some big-league rotations; Michael Ynoa is the best Latin American prospect of the decade; 2008 draftees Jemile Weeks and Rashun Dixon bring much-needed tools to an advanced group of hitters." - BaseballProspectus.com
by Syphon on Jul 2, 2009 12:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where am I suggesting that I want more Hannahans?
I am however suggesting that Hannahan is better than Ryan Sweeney.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 2, 2009 7:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Only problem is..
Hannahan wont get better, Sweeney will.
"Their Triple-A rotation, led by Trevor Cahill and Brett Anderson, could be better than some big-league rotations; Michael Ynoa is the best Latin American prospect of the decade; 2008 draftees Jemile Weeks and Rashun Dixon bring much-needed tools to an advanced group of hitters." - BaseballProspectus.com
by Syphon on Jul 2, 2009 9:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hannahan is better than Ryan Sweeney?
Sorry, I respectfully have to LOL at that one.
Whatever WAR and any other combination of initials says.
Sweeney has some ability with the bat which Hannahan does not.
I could care less about his defense. You insert Sweeney or anyone with comparable ability with the bat in place of every Hannahan at bat and we have quite a few more wins. More than Hannahan has stopped in runs.
And I agree with Syphon, Sweeney should get better.
Defense is great but when you cannot score a run or two, what good is it when you lose 3-1, 2-0, 1-0 and 4-3 and so on.
by Trainman on Jul 2, 2009 10:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, when do we care about defense? I mean, this is one major knock against Cust.
Baseball isn't magic.
by rebus on Jul 2, 2009 10:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Defense doesn't matter--
Cust to SS!
by Elston Gunn on Jul 2, 2009 10:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
also, to say that less smugly
Dave Cameron wrote a good post about undervaluing defense in the Morgan/Milledge deal: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/morgan-dunn
by Elston Gunn on Jul 2, 2009 10:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree with Cameron's take on the trade
but agree that defense is still undervalued. Look at how much the Rangers and the M’s improved their defense and how much better their shittacular pitching got.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 2, 2009 11:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
Jordan Zimmermann on a team that plays decent defense is an NL ROY candidate, hell, he’s the frontrunner for that award.
"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden
by Blicks on Jul 2, 2009 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It isn't really his take on the trade
It’s his take on one of the players in the trade. He’s just saying that Nyjer is a better player for the Nationals than Dunn, not that it was necessarily good to give up Milledge.
That point, I think, is well made.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Jul 2, 2009 11:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In a earlier article he argued that the Nats won the trade
which is what I was referring to. I assume he wrote the Dunn article as more of a defense of why.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 2, 2009 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i have to agree with this as well
Using wOBA+ (park adjusted), Sweeney was about an average hitter last year, at 101 wOBA+. This year, he’s at 97 wOBA+.
But this all matters on his defense though. If his 2009 defensive numbers at CF are indicative of his true defensive abilities, as opposed to his 2008 CF defense numbers, he’s a pretty good player.
And he’s still young.
"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden
by Blicks on Jul 2, 2009 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
where are you getting the park adjusted wOBA?
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 2, 2009 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden
by Blicks on Jul 2, 2009 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I never said Hannahan was better than Sweeney.
"Their Triple-A rotation, led by Trevor Cahill and Brett Anderson, could be better than some big-league rotations; Michael Ynoa is the best Latin American prospect of the decade; 2008 draftees Jemile Weeks and Rashun Dixon bring much-needed tools to an advanced group of hitters." - BaseballProspectus.com
by Syphon on Jul 2, 2009 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like the idea of signing Beltre to a "prove yourself" deal
The Mariners are interested in Kouzmanoff. If they get him, no way they offer Beltre arb or a 1 year deal, not with the pitching the way it will be next year.
And, it’s very likely that Beltre’s 2009 offensive numbers had something to do with that injury (playing through injury!), so they should rebound.
Do something like 1 year with incentives and an option.
"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden
by Blicks on Jul 2, 2009 7:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That would be a good idea
I am not a doctor but it sure appeared his offense suffered because of the injury.
by Trainman on Jul 2, 2009 10:10 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've read elsewhere
that the Cardinals have added all the payroll their owner will allow with DeRosa trade. I don’t know, I think the Cardinals might not be a fit for Holliday.
If Beane is going to trade Holliday doesn’t it have to be for infield help? The A’s do not need anymore young pitching and if I’m reading this well written article right the Cards don’t seem to have much the A’s would need.
by sirbed on Jun 30, 2009 5:08 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
The A's can take on payroll
so it shouldn’t be a problem. Also sending Ludwick back would help relieve some salary from the Cardinals budget.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jun 30, 2009 5:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wouldn't that be a change....The A's take on payroll
by sirbed on Jun 30, 2009 5:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They took on a lot of payroll
when they acquired Holliday. Given the turnout they get, we should be happy they spend what they do.
by swatnick on Jun 30, 2009 5:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No it wouldn't.
See Kotsay, Mark.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jun 30, 2009 5:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude R U Serrious?
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jun 30, 2009 11:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not a big fan of Ludwick
I don’t know if it’s a stretch to think he could be a 3 win player in 2010, but I do believe we’ve seen the best he’s ever going to do. That bothers me. If Holliday gets dealt I want potential upside in return… that’s not Ryan Ludwick.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Jun 30, 2009 5:33 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree but essentially youre looking at the Street part of the deal...
rather than the Gonzalez part of the deal trying to find your upside. The upside is in Jones/Jay as the third player. Ludwick is a good player having a down year with a reasonable contract who like you said we’ve probably seen the best of already, just like Street was at the end of last year. Im not advocating for the deal like I said above to Nico. In terms of value though I do think it might be better than Havens/Murphy, even though I like Havens a lot and am not so high on the individual players in this trade.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jun 30, 2009 5:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That should be read as Havens+Murphy
I guess the question is if you can get the Mets to up the anty at this point beyond Havens+Murphy+ (Matt Spencer type C level throw in) to Havens+Murphy+ Famillia or another legit prospect rather than just a throw in. If that is the case then the Mets deal makes much more sense than the Cards, though I just don’t think that the Cards deal is as bad as people are portraying it. I think its an ok deal, I wouldn’t be especially plussed by it, but I think people don’t like it because it isn’t a clear Frickin A deal.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jun 30, 2009 5:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ironic, isn't it, that you compare Ludwick to Street?
Street has been dealing for the Rockies, with his fastball ticking back up to were it was when he first arrived. Not saying that the A’s could have predicted his 2009 success, just that it’s easier for a 25 year old player to bounce back/improve than it is for a 31 year old player.
People don’t like the deal because Ludwick had one good season and prior to that had a AAAA label. They’re worried, rightly, that this year is a return to his AAAA ways.
Put another way, I think any deal that features Ludwick is an underwhelming deal for the A’s. The Cards are going to make the push that Ludwick should be the top guy in the package, as they’re pulling him from the big league line-up to make the deal happen. That’s a bad deal for the A’s, especially considering the market opportunities for Holliday.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Jun 30, 2009 6:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He had a good year in 2007 too and ZIPS expects him to rebound
plus his “bad year” is still a 94 OPS +. I see the package as Jones/Jay + Ludwick + Motte just like the Holliday package was Gonzalez + Street + Smith. I would also like to point out that getting a pitcher with a history of arm problems to rebound is probably harder than it is to get an OF to have their BAPIP normalize.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jun 30, 2009 6:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
2007 was a partial season and you're exaggerating Street's arm issues
Street never needed surgery, and if it is truly harder for a young pitcher to bounce back from a serious arm injury than for a 32 year old OFer to bounce back to his fluke performance level then the A’s might as well take Outman outside and shoot him!
The Cardinals are going to push Ludwick as the principle chip they give up.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Jun 30, 2009 7:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
2007 was a partial season, but I don't think Im exaggerating Streets health issues
I should have said health rather than arm. Huston has a long history of pulled hamstrings and groins severely affecting his effectiveness on the mound. As for his arm ulnar nerve irritation can be a career changing injury and caused him to miss 68 games.
I don’t suggest that he will rebound beyond a .350 wOBA which doesn’t seem that unreasonable.
I have a question that maybe you know the answer to, does Outman burn service time rehabbing from TJ on the 60 day DL?
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jun 30, 2009 8:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, he was hurt while in the Show
That means his down time this season counts towards service time.
He does have options left, so the A’s might be able to send him down at the start of next season. Not 100% sure on that one.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Jun 30, 2009 9:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Health" draws less ire
Even if Ludwick could revert to his 2007 form (‘cause we all acknowledge ’08 ain’t happening again) that gives you a corner OF with a 110 OPS+. Which is fine, but not exactly really good and you’d be looking for someone better from the get go. Would it make him one of the A’s best hitters? Sure… but that has more to do with how lousy our other hitters are then how good Ludwick is.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Jul 1, 2009 7:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
a .350 wOBA plus his good defense in right is a three win player
we don’t have a three win position player that is healthy right now besides Suzuki penciled in for next year. I have a hard time even reasonably believing that Cunningham or Buck will put up those kinds of numbers.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 9:10 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude, a 94 OPS+ sucks for a corner OF. You keep saying it like it's OK that his bad year sucks.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
by mikev on Jun 30, 2009 10:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
its -6 RAA
+ – 7.5 positional adjustment + 20 replacement runs + 4 fielding runs = 1.15 wins if his BAPIP stays in the .230s range. If as is likely it improves to about average .302 his wOBA goes up to the 360s and finishes the year in the 340 range it goes up to being 6.5 RAA Player which is 2.3 WAR in an admittedly down year where his season BAPIP will still only be .268.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jun 30, 2009 11:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hitters do not improve by coming to Oakland
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
by Eastbayjim on Jul 1, 2009 6:08 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Im suggesting that he improves in a vaccumn as his luck normalizez
Oakland it really doesn’t have anything to do with it.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 9:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oakland as a ballpark, as an AL team and Oakland as a team both matter
We can expect him to not be as good in Oakland as he is in St. Louis.
Also, why would Beane trade for a player in his 30’s but he has shown he would normally trade for prospects or in the case right now, a 3B or SS which is needed and an ok corner OF is not.
Rmemeber even though many here don’t believe in Buck or Sweeney or Cunningham, Beane does.
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
by Eastbayjim on Jul 1, 2009 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If he believed in Buck he wouldn't be pulling this crap.
Ditto with Cunningham.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 11:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I probably believe in Buck more than Beane does
Beane is over Geren in terms of power hierarchy. That’s true in all MLB clubs, even those with new GMs but HOF managers (Cardinals, Braves).
If he really wants to see Buck get an extended shot in MLB, Buck would be getting full time PT in MLB right now. Same Cunningham.
"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden
by Blicks on Jul 1, 2009 11:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
his raw numbers won't be as good
but he’ll be equally valuable (because everyone has to hit under the same conditions), unless he has some particular ability to exploit his home park.
by Elston Gunn on Jul 1, 2009 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes kitty.....
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
by mrod on Jun 30, 2009 11:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Robust
he heheh hhe heheheh
He said bust
These are very robusty, thanks for posting!
concocting something witty....check back frequently
by OptimistPrime on Jun 30, 2009 5:55 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Glad you are amused.
If you haven’t yet please rec the piece so it keeps the debate going longer.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jun 30, 2009 11:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just for a change of pace...
Pirates seem to be in sell mode. What about going after Ian Snell?
$4.25 million in 2010, team controlled options in 2011 and 2012. Just got sent down to the minors on his own request and the Pittsburgh FO doesn’t appear very happy with him.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Jun 30, 2009 6:12 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I was just thinking about that
he struck out 17 of his 24 batters while only giving up 2 hits. Great buy low guy but who do you kick out of the rotation. Both Gio and Gallagher need to be pitching every 5 days on the big club IMO (though Gallagher is hurt) and Eveland should be up to regain his trade value.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jun 30, 2009 6:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
andy laroche
i assume they want pitching in return. but all of a sudden the pitching depth doesnt look great. We’ve seen everyone other than simmons.
by Asfan4ever723 on Jun 30, 2009 6:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just heard Snell
on the radio say that he contemplated killing himself this past month over the dark thoughts he was feeling and the pressure of pitching in Pittsburgh. I would think this young man needs to work on some things before anyone would trade for him.
by sirbed on Jun 30, 2009 6:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Greinke redux?
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
by mikev on Jun 30, 2009 10:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's the new undervalued market.
Emo is the new OBP.
I realized I was dyslexic when I went to a toga party dressed as a goat.
by Elvez on Jun 30, 2009 11:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
this is very funny
well played, sir
by bobnothing on Jul 1, 2009 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pressure of pitching in Pittsburgh?
Do…not…comprehend.
"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden
by Blicks on Jul 1, 2009 8:08 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pressure of being named "Snell"?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 1, 2009 8:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
a couple of things...
1) My thinking is that McClellan would be the preferred choice over Motte- given the fact that McClellan is younger and has starting potential.
2) I know wallace takes knocks for his body-specifically his excessive junk-in-the-trunk. However, all reports that I have seen admit that he is much more athletic than he appears… I guess what I’m saying is it isn’t a stretch to believe he could give us sandoval type 3b defense during his youthful years. Anyways, even if he deemed unable to play 3b from the get-go- the worst possible situation is that we have a logjam at 1st/DH and have to move one of Doolittle/ Carter to the outfield… We’ve got Jack friggin Cust patroling RF, enough said.
3) At this point, the only way the cardinals are trading for Holiday is if the A’s pick up some, or all, of the rest of his salary (which has been mentioned). Likewise, the only way Billy Beane will attempt to convince Lou Wolf to pick up some, or all, of that remaining salary is if he is assured Mr. Wallace is coming back in the proposed deal… So, to me, as of the DeRosa trade- the Ludwick, Motte/McClellan, prospect deal is rendered moot.
4) so, to me, it all boils down to whether Billy believes in Wallace’s bat, and whether it will serve as a true difference-maker in the A’s lineup….
by MAC Attack on Jun 30, 2009 6:21 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Good analysis, IMO
Most felt Sandoval couldn’t handle 3B either and if the bat is good the A’s would benefit wherever Wallace played. Just as Beane held out for Gallagher, I don’t see why he wouldn’t hold out for Wallace to be part of any Holliday package.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jun 30, 2009 6:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i still say the Reds are a fit
Might be in desperation mode…1 playoff appearance in 19 yrs. But adding payroll seems to be an issue. Will Jocketty do another big deal with Beane?
by Asfan4ever723 on Jun 30, 2009 6:37 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
What do the Yankees or Red Sox have to offer
because it seems likely that Holliday will end up with one of those teams in the off-season so why not get the ball rolling.
by sirbed on Jun 30, 2009 6:51 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
well, the Yanks have this 'swisher' kid who looks pretty good
I don't always blog. But when I do, I prefer AN. Stay thirsty my friends.
by Kallus on Jun 30, 2009 7:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They both don't have a need for him.
Soxs have Bay and Drew Yanks have Damon and Swish.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jun 30, 2009 7:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not a fan of Ludwick. Wallace or Bust.
These are things I have been saying, but I think it’s time to move on.
If they can get Wallace, great. If STL won’t budge on that, and this is the best offer on the table, take it.
Ludwick might be 31, but he instantly becomes the A’s best hitter next season. And from my understanding, he’ll be relatively affordable for the next few seasons.
If they do the deal for Ludwick, it will send a mesage that they’re trying to contend in 2010, and I definitely hope they will be.
"I am not pleased with myself."
- Leo Tolstoy, after he masturbated.
by The Most Interesting mAN on Jun 30, 2009 8:52 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Cards have the desire but not the means...
Sounds to me as if a three-way deal is in the offing. DFA, can you suggest some possibilities?
Incidentally, very good series. More, please.
"Have you heard? It’s in the stars.
Next July, we collide with Mars!"
-Cole Porter
by ptbarnum on Jun 30, 2009 9:09 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Me, Meghan Fox and Angelina Jolie?
Maybe getting the Braves involved in the Ludwick portion of the deal would work since they have (had?) a better farm system but cant take on the salary of Holliday but perhaps can take on the much cheaper Ludwick that way you could get Schaffer back? I haven’t done their piece so I don’t have a real educated guess of what the A’s would have to send their way a bullpen arm perhaps.
Ask any girl Ive dated Im bad at proposing three ways :-P
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jun 30, 2009 11:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
TWSS!
I think there has to be a a better deal out there for trading Matt Holliday.
Not sure what it is but something tells me it’s out there and Beane is gonna hold his cards until he has to show them….
Good post DFA!
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
by mrod on Jul 1, 2009 12:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If the TWSS implies one of the fine women in the title suggested a three way...
please give them my digits post haste.
Thinking about the Braves, while Ludwick does fit their needs and IIRC they did pursue him in the offseason, you have to wonder whether they would help the Cardinals, a rival for the Wild Card, get their hands on Holliday
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 12:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If the Braves go anywhere, they're more likely to get the division
than the WC. They have to deal with the Giants, Rox, and Cardinals for the WC, all superior teams to Mets/Phillies/Marlins.
And they’re talking about trading Yunel Escobar. That’s another way to say “punt the season.”
Time to have some massive 3 player deal with Escobar in green and gold?
Something where Holliday went to the Cards, Ludwick and prospects went to the Braves, and the A’s kicked in one more prospect to go to ATL, with the A’s getting Yunel.
"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden
by Blicks on Jul 1, 2009 8:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Now you're talking -- that's vintage Billy Beane,
circa before he started acting like an absentee moron.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 1, 2009 8:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why would they trade a good starting short stop to plug an OF hole?
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 9:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know, honestly.
Olney suggested that the Braves were willing to move him for “a good young hitter” due to the fact that he didn’t mesh with Bobby Cox (see: Nick Swisher/Ozzie Guillen) and Bobby might want him gone. Since Cox is a HOF manager and a huge part of that team, you don’t mesh with Cox, you gone.
They shouldn’t move him, but I was pinging off the rumors.
"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden
by Blicks on Jul 1, 2009 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Does anyone on the A's qualify as a good young hitter?
Does Ludwick?
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No and no.
You’re right. That was just a hypothetical I was tossing out there.
I don’t know who both needs a SS and has an expendable young, cost controlled hitter though.
IF Esco is truly on the outs (which I don’t think he is), of course the A’s should be interested.
"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden
by Blicks on Jul 1, 2009 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just reading this gave me a semi
Yunel Escobar, wow. I’m going to start telling people this is a fact.
by bobnothing on Jul 1, 2009 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Angelina Jolie? Maybe 10 years ago
You do have a thing for past their prime assets…
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Jul 1, 2009 7:10 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shes hot in a kinky kinda way.
Im not a big popular culture kinda guy so I picked a common reference and I balanced my types with Megan Fox :-P
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 9:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Time will tell my good man
but I don’t anticipate the Braves helping out the Cards in any way, especially at this point in the game.
On a personal note, I have watched and observed Matt Holliday at games up close and personal this year. He has done nothing to make me a fan of his, despite his defenders, and I wonder what he’s been thinking out there in LF while us A’s fans have been rooting him on. He just seems uninterested and “What the hell do I care? I’m just wondering if I’m gonna be batting cleanup behind Pujols…” sort of stuff etc….
Maybe it’s just the fan in me but his body language tells me he really can’t wait to get the hell out of Oakland!
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
by mrod on Jul 1, 2009 1:13 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Ask Rockies fans about Holliday's body language and they'll tell you this is just the way he is.
Also, you’re ignoring the numerous reports coming out since spring training about Holliday being one of the hardest working/intense guys on the team.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jul 1, 2009 1:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's all fine and dandy........
but us fans want to see some heart out in the field!
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
by mrod on Jul 1, 2009 2:05 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fuck heart, I want wins
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Jul 1, 2009 7:10 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Here here
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 9:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
THANK YOU.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
by mikev on Jul 1, 2009 10:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
well that, too. but you get what I'm saying....
even some of my friends that are casual baseball fans(unlike the maniac that I am) have said, " Boy, Holliday sure looks like he doesn’t want to be in Oakland….".
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
by mrod on Jul 1, 2009 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And yet, here he is.
and he’s got a 115 OPS+, which is down for him but still the best on the team.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
by mikev on Jul 1, 2009 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
true....
I guess the gist of my comment was aimed at wanting Holliday to like he actually gives a shit…..capeesh?
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
by mrod on Jul 1, 2009 11:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure, but some people just aren't like that.
Not everybody is rah-rah and happy go lucky like Nick Swisher is. Different people have different personalities, and Holliday’s is the type that doesn’t really show much emotion. There’s nothing wrong with that.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
by mikev on Jul 1, 2009 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
for the record
the Brewers lead the NL Central by 2 games and 3 in the loss column. Given that their advantage is a dynamite 1-2 punch of Ryan Braun and Prince Fielder in the middle of the lineup, and that Aramis Ramirez is about to return to the bedraggled Cubs’ lineup, I’d say the Cards need for offense is pretty acute. Which could be a good thing for the A’s.
by jasonthea on Jul 1, 2009 7:18 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
These posts take time to write
that was the record when I started the post.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 9:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I want the A's to take on all of the money to get the best prospect package possible.
I’d like the A’s to package Holliday, Cabrera or Crosby, and Springer to the Cardinals…and offer to pay all of the ~$10 million attached to them over the remainder of the year.
(Easy to say when it’s not my money, I know).
1. The Cardinals probably would like to upgrade their shortstop situation looking toward 2010. Khalil Greene wasn’t the answer. Clearly the stats of Crosby and Cabrera don’t suggest they are an upgrade either, but I think we’d all acknowledge that a fresh start/new environment/NL hitters’ park can make a difference. I could see either of them enjoying a mini-renaissance for 3 months in St. Louis, knowing that its basically a last chance.
Look at it this way – even if Cabrosby didn’t improve their middle infield, it would give the Cards the opportunity to audition their potential starting shortstop for ‘10 for free, since the A’s would be covering the remainder of the contract. If Cabrosby DID go gangbusters for a few months, and meshed with LaRussa’s heart-filled McGrittyness, the Cards would have an obvious re-signing situation for 2010 that they’d feel good about as a stopgap until Kozma’s ready.
2. Springer or Wuertz helps the Cards overcome the loss of Perez and McClellan or Motte from their bullpen. Again, the A’s are paying the salary in this scenario, so the Cards have nothing to lose. They have a prior amicable relationship with Springer and Wuertz is a good sell high/sell healthy candidate, although I wouldn’t enjoy losing his last two arby years from the A’s. Obviously I would prefer to part with Springer’s expiring contract than Wuertz.
3. Holliday becomes that much more attractive to the Cards when the A’s eliminate the main deterrent to acquiring him – the ~$7 million left on his contract. Plus, he’s more valuable to the Cards than to perhaps any other team, not only because they’re a contender in need of OF help but because he’d seriously entertain the possibility of re-signing there.
Holliday, Cabrera or Crosby, and Springer or Wuertz, plus ~$10M (their remaining 2009 salary). Shouldn’t that land Wallace? I realize it would leave the Cards with a gaping hole at third base. But they’d also be clearing $25 million in payroll with the departures of Piniero, Glaus, and Greene to free agency. And the Cardinals can afford to sign Adrian Beltre or Joe Crede this winter with a fraction of that money.
Having cost-controlled players all over the diamond is important, sure. But it’s more important for a team like the A’s than the Cardinals, who can buy a decent free agent or two every year with their 3 million attendance and $90-100M payrolls. What the Cardinals really need is to get back in the playoffs, and stop squandering the greatest hitter in the game like the Giants did for several years.
I think that offer above should land Wallace and either Motte or Ludwick. They’d probably be more willing to part with Ludwick, not only because Holliday creates a crowded outfield but because the ~$4.5 million he’ll be due in his second year of arby next year (he made $3.7 this year) is kinda scary, given his production in ‘09. By trading him, they eliminate a tough question mark for them of whether or not he’s a non-tender candidate at that salary.
Off topic, but when I compare this to the Mets package, I prefer it. The Mets package scares me, because it seems like it’s putting all your chips in scouting. The best of the Mets farm system is all very young, and has never put up good stats. You’d have to really trust the judgment of the A’s scouting staff to feel good about it.
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Jul 1, 2009 9:28 AM PDT reply actions 3 recs
Who was being bandied about for a Mets swap?
Baseball isn't magic.
by rebus on Jul 1, 2009 10:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
check out dfa's Mets post
It’s been a great series. He’s put a ton of time into it, and it’s been excellent!
If you click on his user name, you can see his “recent activity” and the blog posts that he’s written. It’s titled, “Possible Trade Partners: New York Mets”.
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Jul 1, 2009 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would look at my Mets post
For a comprehensive look at what I was proposing One of Flores, FMart, or Mejia plus a C+ type, or two of Tejada, Murphy, Havens, Marte (you could probably put Holt in that picture though I don’t like him much). I think you might be able to get a little more than that if this is actually the offer from the cards.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 10:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Completely, completely agree with everything you said.
Plus, he’s more valuable to the Cards than to perhaps any other team, not only because they’re a contender in need of OF help but because he’d seriously entertain the possibility of re-signing there.
And, of course, keeping him away from all those other division and WC contenders (Giants, Reds, Cubs maybe, Mets, maybe even the Braves) from getting him.
Off topic, but when I compare this to the Mets package, I prefer it. The Mets package scares me, because it seems like it’s putting all your chips in scouting.
Yeah, I agree with this. Massive massive bust risk there.
If the A’s want Wilmer Flores, go sign Sano. I know, easy to say since its not my money, but the A’s should be spending on the international market anyway.
"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden
by Blicks on Jul 1, 2009 10:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really like Reese Havens who has numbers to back up his nice scouting reports.
but yes especially with Flores, Tejada, and Marte and to a lesser extent FMart and Mejia there are definitely risks. The cardinals package has its risks too. Will Ludwick rebound? Will Jones/Jay progress to make skills out of tools? Will Motte ever find the zone? etc etc.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
what I like about your proposal
Is that you are targeting a quality prospect, who in your opinion, will be a solid MLB player (Wallace).
In my opinion, the A’s have many players who could be considered AAAA. Patterson, Sweeney?, Barton? Petit? etc … though these players still have time and could very likely prove me wrong.
So if you like Wallace and can get Ludwick, do whatever it takes to make this deal happen (i.e. include cash, a lower level prospects…)
by echerrst on Jul 1, 2009 10:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have some disagreements
1 Brandon Ryan is playing better than Orlando Cabrera/Bobby Crosby. Furthermore, they have Greene on the disabled list and cant carry that many infielders.
2 I think Wuertz would be the non Baily pen asset I would want to hold but totally agree on Springer
3 I think you bring up the payroll situation for the Cards which is important. By trading a starting corner OF they need to replace a #2/3 starter (Pinero), 3b (Glaus), SS (Greene), and a starting OF (Holliday) let alone role players like Ankiel. $25m doesn’t even come close to doing that. You want them to trade their replacement for two of those positions? Furthermore you could get in the way of seeing if Ryan is a longterm answer at SS. Doesn’t make sense for them to create 2 holes in next years lineup (corner OF and 3b) to fill one that isn’t really as bad as it looks now.
It is also doubtful that Ludwick would be a nontender candidate even if his rest of the year performance doesn’t rebound. The Cardinals don’t have an internal replacement for him and $4m is only 1 WAR worth of value and is likely what he will get if his year continues poorly.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
good points
I don’t really want Ludwick anyway. I hadn’t realized that it created an extra hole for them next year. Feeling the way you do about Ludwick, would you do the deal from the Cardinals perspective as I’ve proposed it if it were for Wallace only?
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Jul 1, 2009 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Im the Cards? Yes.
I don’t really want Cabrera/Crosby. I like Wuertz and get to keep him at least one additional season (I cant recall what his service time is but I think hes got two years of arby left). If it is Ziggy I get to keep him for 5 years which I really like. Yes I do trade Wallace as long as I can trade Ankiel to the Mets (probably the best match for them, Bobby Parnell could help the bullpen now and shore up the back of the rotation next year), Braves, or San Francisco. I do it because the two draft picks are IMO only slightly less valuable long term as Wallace and I am willing to pay for Beltre, Crede, Tejada, or Glaus next year if im not convinced that Freese or Craig can play third to get those picks and Holliday.
I think it would be a terrible trade for the A’s though. I would take the two draft picks first.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 4:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What I don't understand is that the A"s do not need to sell Holiday
If the Cards or Braves or anyone wants Holliday, and it appears he is a hot item, then THEY will pay for him. What you are purposing is for the A"s to give Holliday away and money and other players for one player. Even though the player is Wallace, the worst case is to trade Holliday (and his pay) for Wallace straight up.
Now if you want to trade Crosby, Cabrera, Kennedy or others then that is a totally different deal.
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
by Eastbayjim on Jul 1, 2009 11:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly.
If Holliday doesn’t land a player of the caliber of Escobar, Rasmus, or Wallace (I guess…scared to death of Wallace), he’s not worth selling, period.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on Jul 1, 2009 11:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So if he doesn't get one of two of the best young MLB players at premium positions...
or a prospect youre scared of he isn’t worth trading? HUH? that makes no sense for a half a year rental.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Holliday is the prize that the Cards or Braves or Mets, etc are going after for this year's Playoff run
Wallace doesn’t help the Cards this year so and it doesn’t do the A’s anygood to sell Holliday for less that what his value is as the best corner outfielder available. Either trade him for quality or wait until the offseason and get a 1st and sup draft picks for him.
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
by Eastbayjim on Jul 1, 2009 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
there's a big gap between "quality" and the best young players in baseball
Rasmus and Escobar would both be unqualified Fuckin A deals, and Wallace basically would too. There’s a lot of players we could get between that and the value of two draft picks.
by Elston Gunn on Jul 1, 2009 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again im not on the Wallace bandwagon
but this is exactly what I am saying.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 3:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Like Travis Buck, or Aaron Cunningham?
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on Jul 1, 2009 7:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am not suggesting that you trade him for garbage
I am suggesting that we trade him for a package that is more valuable than the picks that we would receive regardless of whether it has one of the top 10 young cost controlled MLB players in it.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 3:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Half year rentals get that yield all the time.
Why should Holliday be any different?
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on Jul 1, 2009 7:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really? When was the last 1/2 year rental to get a Escobar/Rasumus type player in return?
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 11:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sabathia got LaPorta plus 3 other pieces
There is a market for Holliday. We do not need to settle.
by DeJay on Jul 2, 2009 1:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Laporta was not one of the best young MLB players
He was a minor league slugger without a position. BIG DIFFERENCE.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 2, 2009 7:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
and he was old for a top prospect.
I don’t think Ludwick/Motte/Jones is all that much less than the Indians got for Sabathia AND Sabathia is a better player at a more scarce position.
by Elston Gunn on Jul 2, 2009 10:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Laporta was a very good prospect despite age and defense
and the other pieces of the deal were pretty good too though I think the Indians made a big mistake with the PTBNL. Im just saying that Laporta isn’t close to the same level as Rasmus or Escobar.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 2, 2009 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree to disagree then.
Everything I remember reading about LaPorta said he was a can’t miss offensive prospect—certainly no different than Wallace, at a minimum.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on Jul 2, 2009 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
he was about equal to wallace, yes.
and was about as equally blocked. (though Wallace does have the advantage of still having a shot at playing third.) i don’t think the cardinals would be crazy to give us a wallace+ for holliday deal, I just don’t think they will, and there are other deals that would be worth us making. but wallace is well below the level or rasmus/escobar et al. anyway
by Elston Gunn on Jul 2, 2009 1:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The deal doesn't have to be just Holliday, either.
The only thing I don’t want to see is the A’s use the best bargaining chip they’ve had in years to get a “package” of good but not great. They need to get a f^&*in’ A prospect or young major leaguer in return, even if they have to sweeten the pot.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on Jul 2, 2009 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
LaPorta could be really good
Michael Brantley was the PTBNL they chose. The other rumored one was Taylor Green. Jon Lucroy might have been another.
I don’t think that CC is near the equivalent of MH.
by JetSam on Jul 2, 2009 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with this
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 2, 2009 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not tonight he weren't!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 2, 2009 8:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
LaPorta was hitless!
and yeah, CC wishes he was too.
by JetSam on Jul 2, 2009 9:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Disagree
That money isn’t just going to come from nowhere. That would be money that we could spend on signing guys like Leyland, Dyson, Krol and Zunino. There are a number of teams looking for a big bat and Holliday is the best one on the market. There is no need to pay all off his salary, especially not just for Wallace and Ludwick. Throw in some money if it gets a better package but it is not like Holliday isn’t worth the money he is being paid.
by DeJay on Jul 1, 2009 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes and no...
I agree with what you are saying in principle which is that we should invest in young talent and prospects. However Beane has said that the MLB and draft/international budgets aren’t fungible, which is the case with most MLB teams. Therefore contributing money to offset the cost of rental players is in fact the best and only way to use MLB funds to acquire quality prospects.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Balance
While Beane has said the budgets are set I don’t believe there is no scope for moving funds around if the opportunity arose. In this recession I can understand that offering money towards players salaries would lure teams into offering a better prospect package, but I think paying off all of Holliday’s, Cabrera’s and Springer’s contracts is too excessive, especially if the return is only Wallace and Ludwick. In this market there is no need to pay off all of Holliday’s salary – he is not overpaid and there are enough potential suitors out there.
by DeJay on Jul 2, 2009 2:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where did Beane say the budgets are set?
That’s a serious question, not rhetorical. If Beane is talking openly about the organization’s budget process anywhere, I’d love to read that.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
by iglew on Jul 2, 2009 11:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I will try to find it
I recall him saying that the set budgets for the draft and international signings are independent of each other and that the A’s over slot picks in the draft would not effect the potential international signings.
by DeJay on Jul 3, 2009 2:10 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
To clarify,
I do remember reading someone (Wolff or Beane, not sure which) that spending on draft picks and international signings are not directly linked to general team payroll — specifically that decreasing one does not automatically increase the other.
What I don’t remember reading is that either budget is fixed. My impression is that both are flexible according to the circumstances, which is why it jumped out at me here when you and DFA implied that they are each fixed but fixed separately.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
by iglew on Jul 3, 2009 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
im pretty sure it was in one of the AN interviews...
Ill look for it int he morning.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 3, 2009 3:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This was Wolff, but its relevant.
So what we’re trying to do, like other teams, we’re trying to look at international, draft and free agency as one bundle of money and where we spend it. So it isn’t that our payroll is only $50 million this year. We probably spent two or three times what we spent over the last few years on the international market. And we finally beefed it up. It’s a great way because when they come up, we have them for six years. So this idea of leaving isn’t going to be quite the same because you have the three years at a fixed salary and then you have three years of arbitration.
"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden
by Blicks on Jul 3, 2009 6:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Wallace can't stick at third, and Ludwick just had his career year at 31...
then I’d rather look elsewhere than St. Louis.
I realized I was dyslexic when I went to a toga party dressed as a goat.
by Elvez on Jul 1, 2009 10:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Im kinda there. Though I believe in Ludwick more than most.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 11:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Very well written, but incredibly short sighted
Brett Wallace is not the next Evan Longoria. He is not going to last at 3B in the long run… or even the medium run. He is a short term answer to 3B at best, then he needs to move to 1B where the A’s already have Sean Doolittle and Chris Carter in the upper minors.
Simply put, Brett Wallace isn’t worth Matt Holliday, Orlando Cabrera (‘cause he’s the guy LaRussa would want, not my all time fave B.C.) and Wuertz, plus the cash to pay for all of them. Adding in Ludwick doesn’t balance out the scales, although his addition might be better than a young bullpen arm. I say might because I’m not convinced that he’s as good as d.f.a thinks he is.
The package you’re suggesting should land a team some really good prospects, not one prospect.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Jul 2, 2009 7:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with this
Even If you like Ludwick less than I do.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 2, 2009 7:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
BAD NEWS!!!!
An MLB executive familiar with the Mets’ thinking tells me that the Mets have no plans to make any major trades right now. They feel as if they will improve themselves before the July 31s trading deadline more than anyone in baseball. By then, the Mets think that Jose Reyes, Carlos Beltran, John Maine and Oliver Perez could be back. In August, Carlos Delgado could return.
I assume this is also saying that they’re semi-punting ‘09 due to all the injuries they have (although you could’ve expected Maine, Putz and Delgado, and Oliver Perez sucks anyway)
Even if the A’s weren’t necessarily looking to make a trade with the Mets, having them in the bidding or at least looking to improve via some trade, is huge leverage the A’s have against all those other WC contenders like the Cards/Reds/Giants.
"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden
by Blicks on Jul 1, 2009 11:23 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
i don't think that is that bad
First, the Mets had been saying this for a while. Secondly I think that means early july/ASB trades not deadline deals.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 12:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting
I don’t have much to add except to say that the probable STL players offered seems a rather underwhelming group to trade Holliday for.
I really like this fanpost and the Mets one, dfa – keep up the excellent work! I’m looking forward to your breakdown of the other teams.
There is no gravity - the earth just sucks.
by JLeverenz on Jul 1, 2009 11:38 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I want the next Jesus in Cleats.
"We lose to Stanford in many sports, but if you want to make a Cal team quit, bring a weapon."
--Coach Clark
by carp on Jul 1, 2009 12:22 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Passion of the Cleats
would be a great baseball movie. What position would he play?
A fractured sinus is nothing to sneeze at.
by somebodyelse on Jul 2, 2009 1:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He plays outfield for the Tigers.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
by iglew on Jul 2, 2009 11:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Wallace ends up not being a real major-league 3B, is there any reason to think he's a better prospect than Doolittle?
I’m just asking for the sake of perspective, here.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Jul 1, 2009 4:19 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Well he hasn't messed up his knee...
But generally I would say that Carter and Doolittle are equivalent or slightly better prospects if Wallace really cant play third.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 4:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's how I see it
although I think Carter might be worth more in any case because he’s the one with the potential for really hellacious power production.
I’m not sure how reliable or useful minor-league fielding stats are, but Wallace’s basic numbers are FP of .955% and RF of 2.57, which I think would be about average in both cases for a major league 3B. So maybe he can hold his own. But this year, at AAA, those numbers are .941% and 2.46.
It seems to me that if he’s not a 3B, he’s only useful to the A’s in a kind of aggregate, “you can never have enough potentially good hitters” way, because he’d just join the 1B logjam.
Frankly, he sounds to me a little like Teahen to me.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Jul 1, 2009 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Teahen has a ton more value
as he can play 3rd 1rst 2nd and both corner OF spots. Wallace won’t be able to play OF at all.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 5:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Teahen on defense
My impression of Teahen is that he’s not that good anywhere, but is mediocre everywhere. Over the course of his career he’s cost KC significant runs wherever they’ve put him. And FWIW he’s only played 3 games at 2B (and 6 in CF), so I think he’s a 3B/1B/LF/RF, though again not good at any of them except maybe LF.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Jul 1, 2009 5:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
and I'm not that huge a Wallace fan.
by Elston Gunn on Jul 1, 2009 8:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What about two turtle doves?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 1, 2009 8:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
F white pidgeons... St Louis can have them.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 11:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really? The dude is mashing this year with a wOBA of .352
and while he plays poor defense at third (which is actually the kind of defense I project from Wallace) he plays ok to good OF defense in the corners. Wallace hasn’t proven anything while Teahen has been a 3 WAR player in the MLB. Maybe if you look at service time, but there is a significant risk that Wallace will never once create the WAR that Teahan has.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 1, 2009 11:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This team will never havea good offense if we shoot for all...
Tehan like players. Some of us want real hitters.
"Their Triple-A rotation, led by Trevor Cahill and Brett Anderson, could be better than some big-league rotations; Michael Ynoa is the best Latin American prospect of the decade; 2008 draftees Jemile Weeks and Rashun Dixon bring much-needed tools to an advanced group of hitters." - BaseballProspectus.com
by Syphon on Jul 2, 2009 12:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You do realize that Wallace is hitting less than that... in AAA right?
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 2, 2009 7:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He was rushed up though.
"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden
by Blicks on Jul 2, 2009 8:10 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
23 in AAA isn't that rushed.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 2, 2009 8:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is when your a year outta college.
"Their Triple-A rotation, led by Trevor Cahill and Brett Anderson, could be better than some big-league rotations; Michael Ynoa is the best Latin American prospect of the decade; 2008 draftees Jemile Weeks and Rashun Dixon bring much-needed tools to an advanced group of hitters." - BaseballProspectus.com
by Syphon on Jul 2, 2009 9:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not really.
College seniors (hitters, especially) who are drafted really have no business playing against 19, 20, or 21 year olds in Rookie Ball or Single A.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
by mikev on Jul 2, 2009 9:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
True.
But they still rarely in AAA before the 2nd half of their next year.
"Their Triple-A rotation, led by Trevor Cahill and Brett Anderson, could be better than some big-league rotations; Michael Ynoa is the best Latin American prospect of the decade; 2008 draftees Jemile Weeks and Rashun Dixon bring much-needed tools to an advanced group of hitters." - BaseballProspectus.com
by Syphon on Jul 2, 2009 9:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wallace has been hitting great
His June slash line was .316/.365/.516, for an .881 OPS in 95 at-bats. In his last 10 games he’s hitting .421 with 8 extra-base hits. I realize that’s a small sample, but so too were his struggles in May – the 17 games with a .627 OPS that represented his first crack at AAA pitching.
He’s adjusted. I think he’s worth a handsome return from the A’s.
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Jul 2, 2009 8:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Like Holliday!
He’s a good looking man.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
by mikev on Jul 2, 2009 9:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wasn't saying that Wallace sucks or that he hasn't been hitting better
just trading three Teahans for one Wallace is silly considering the number of prospects who flame out transitioning to the MLB and his inability to play third and the corner OF positions.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 2, 2009 10:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i didn't know he was hitting that well
don’t pay much attention to the royals…but he’s got a career OPS+ of 99, and plays fringe-average to poor defense at all the corner positions. That has value, so I was exaggerating, but considering service time, I’d much rather have Wallace (at least in a vacuum), even if he ends up at 1B (which I think he will).
by Elston Gunn on Jul 2, 2009 10:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wallace profiles as Teahan in a good year.
.350 wOBA. I actually wouldn’t be surprised if their careers are similar.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 2, 2009 11:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think they're all that similar.
Teahen has had one year of 122 OPS+ (in 439 PAs), a good 300ish PAs this year, and a couple of very crappy years for a corner player. His value is in his ability to be a league average-ish bat that won’t embarass you at a bunch of different positions (and he’s a good baserunner).
If Wallace hits his, say, 75th percentile (maybe less), then he should be 120 OPS+ in an average year, which I guess is what you’re saying, but his bat should be a lot better than Teahen’s, while his glove will be less valuable because he’ll be stuck at 1B.
Though I don’t think the difference even there would be that big, since all the scouting reports I’ve seen suggest Wallace would be a plus defender at 1st. Teahen’s a -10ish 3B, so Wallace only needs to be +5 1B for them to be equal with the glove (-12.5 posititional adjustment for 1B, +2.5 for 3B). Of course that doesn’t account for Teahen’s versatility, but that can’t be worth more than 5 runs a year, I don’t think.
Of course, Teahen’s already that good, while I’m imagining Wallace [i]could[/i] be that good, but Wallace makes up for that with 6 years of team control.
by Elston Gunn on Jul 2, 2009 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I phrased that poorly
I meant I suspect that Wallace will profile like Teahan in a good year for Teahan with Teahan like defense at third. I also think that Teahan could put up a plus 5 number at 1rst if he was given a chance too.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jul 2, 2009 12:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

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