Possible Trade Partners: Mets
This is the first in what hopefully is a series of looks into possible trade partners to asses what trade chips they have and their value. The New York Metropolitans are 34 and 32 just two games back of the Phillies. Mets management is on the hot hot hot seat after collapses the last two years. The lack of job security for Omar Minaya could provide Billy Beane an increased leverage in any dealing between the two clubs. Lets look at the Mets needs and what they have to offer.
The Mets currently have the NL's 4th best offense as measured by wOBA . However, they are severely lacking production at the corner positions have suffered a rash of injuries to All Star SS Jose Reyes, 1b Carlos Delgado, CF Carlos Beltran. Recently Jon Heyman described the Mets needs:
Competing GMs say Mets GM Omar Minaya is out looking for offense now. But it's not an easy chore.
While the Mets' biggest issues may be their defense and baserunning, those issues can't be fixed through trades. We'll see if the offensive issue can be. Their production at the corners has been close to the worst in baseball. So that's what Minaya's looking into.
With Carlos Delgado expected back by the end of August, they'd optimally like to find an offensive player who can play both first base and the outfield so they could use him at either spot now, then switch him to the outfield once Delgado returns. These four come to mind: Brad Hawpe, Adam Dunn, Aubrey Huff and Mark DeRosa.
The A's don't really have a 1b/OF that fits the mold. However, the Rockies have said that they don't want to trade Hawpe and if they did that would be the type of move they wait till the off season to make. Similarly, it appears that the Nationals are according to Heyman "Nationals are said to be seeking to hit a grand slam with trades. "They want a dollar and a quarter for a dollar," one competing GM complained," which goes for both Adam Dunn and Nick Johnson. Huff would probably be a good candidate for the Mets except he regressed back into a 1-2 WAR player which the Mets have internally. Mark DeRosa theoretically could play both 1rst and the OF but he has only ever started 9 games at first in his career, and his bat (which magically got good about a year and a half ago) plays better at 2b or in a super utility role.
This means that the Mets would probably be in on Holliday. Their corner outfield situation is fairly bleak. Gary Sheffield (who seemed to forget that he is 40 and was suppose to be done) is hitting to the tune of a 870 OPS, unfortunately for the Mets his body hasn't forgotten that it is best suited for a DH role rather than playing the outfield. Beyond an acceptable Sheff, the other corner outfield spot is manned by Ryan Church, Daniel Murphy, Fernando Tatis, Angel Pagan, Chris Snelling, and formerly our favorite DFA candidate Emil Brown. Tatis has been playing 1b in the absence of Delgado as has Murphy.
The problem with trading for Holliday presents like this. The Mets have 13 pitchers right now and only 1 SS so when Reyes comes back he should take that extra pitchers spot. If the Mets trade for Holliday they can send out Nick Evans who kinda sucks and platoon Murphy and Tatis at 1b leaving Church and Sheffield to play the other corner OF position. Things get more complicated when Delgado returns. Now one of Pagan/Reed is needed to be kept DL till August 1 or they must be released since I believe both are out of options, but the other needs to be kept so that there is a back up CFer. Holliday, Beltran, Pagan/Reed, Sheffield, Church in the outfield means that one of Murphy/Tatis or Church will be squeezed from the roster.
While it would be possible to send Murphy down to AAA, DFA Tatis, or trade Church, the Mets do need two starting caliber corner OFers next year. Church due to his expense and sub par play over the last two years doesn't seem to be someone that the A's would target, nor does Tatis. Murphy however might be. A natural third basemen Murphy busted on to the scene scorching AA pitching on his way to big club last year after being ranked a C prospect by Sickles. Scouting reports say Murphy's defense is rough but his minor league Total Zone rating is right around average. If Murphy plays average to -2.5 runs below average defense at third, coupled with a potentially league average bat would make him a two win player. However projecting his ceiling beyond 3 wins (10 RAA with the bat and average defense) is a stretch and isn't exactly the high upside 3b candidate we have been drooling over but sufficient.
The Mets minor league system is intriguing, as it is both a bad system and extremely promising at the same time. This is due to the fact that so many of the Mets prospects are low level lottery tickets. Sickles broke down their top 20 and these are the prospects that I think the A's would be interested in.
1) Wilmer Flores, SS-3B, Grade B+: I might take some flack for this, but in this case I think his upside is higher than F-Mart. If I could have just one of them, I’d pick Flores.
2) Fernando Martinez, OF, Grade B+: Still extremely young, though at some point he’s got to produce better than he has. You can flip him with Flores if you prefer the guy closer to the majors.
5) Reese Havens, SS, Grade B: Assuming he’s healthy, I think he’s going to be a strong across-the-board player with a high OBP.
6) Jefry Marte, 3B, Grade C+: Could be a star if it all comes together, but still rather raw. Considering B- but for me that’s aggressive for a rookie ball guy.
7) Jenrry Mejia, RHP, Grade C+ Pitching version of Marte: lots of talent, but skills are in the developmental stages and may not pan out.
16) Ruben Tejada, SS, Grade C+: Gets slack on the grade because he was massively rushed to the Florida State League. Controls the strike zone, has promise with the glove, very young.
Flores has had a rough year, but still has tons of potential. He doesn't project to have much of an OBP (<.340), but that could come with 20-30 HR power and is years away. F-Mart may just be beginning to capitalize on the tool shed in his back yard and could be the answer to our CF problem, so much so that the Mets probably want to keep him. Reese Havens is hitting well in one of the most difficult hitting environments in the big leagues and playing adequate defense. Yes we're about to get Grant Greene in the system but there is a certain bust potential and Havens might have the bat to play 3b. Marte has been terrible terrible terrible this year but is super young and really raw. Mejia has become one of the top pitching prospects in baseball with a break out year, and the Mets should be very reluctant to part with him. He is the only Mets pitching prospect that I have include on the list because with our current level of pitching depth we only need truly elite pitching talent. Tejada has been pushed way too fast and has a possibly elite glove to go with holding his own with the bat in AA. He could be ready to be a full time starting short stop in late 2010.
Any Holliday package would likely contain one of F-Mart, Mejia, or Flores and a throw in (C/C+/Matt Spencer type) which was similar to the return on Texiera last year, or two of Havens, Murphy, Tejada, Marte and a similar throw in. If the A's took on the salary of Holliday (due to the Wilpons dealings with ponzi schemer Bernie Maddoff and Citi field being less fruitful than hoped the Mets are slightly brokish after handing out some stupid contracts this off season) you might get one prospect from each group.
4 recs |
67 comments
Comments
Flores is a baby (born in '91)
Instead of a guy like that we might as well wait for Green, Cardenas, Weeks, and maybe a surprise or two to get a chance in the big leagues. He’s as much of a crap shoot as the rest, why would we give up proven big league talent for a guy who won’t pan out for at least 3-4 years?
by stranahanahan on Jun 24, 2009 11:30 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
What your suggesting is that the A's and Mets don't match up well.
FMart would solve the CF hole by next year, but other than that everyone on this list is at A ball except for Murphy and Tejada (who should still be in A ball). Which is fine, the Mets are just one trade partner.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jun 24, 2009 12:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we can get F-mart
Then you do it. Simple as that.
Solace: Law says he's a fourth OFer
PaulThomas: I think Keith Law is only a fourth analyst
by hero66 on Jun 24, 2009 12:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
I think in order of likelihood of being dealt is FMart Mejia Flores Havens Murphy Tejada Marte from least to most likely.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jun 24, 2009 12:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
don't get me wrong
someone like FMart would be fantastic. We clearly need a center fielder (I’ll admit my man crush for Sweeney is fading fast), but I believe he’s untouchable, or close to it.
However, if he was made available and it was believe he could contribute immediately, I would be all for it. We would fill a hole, and give Buck and Cuningham a shot at the same time.
This would in no way indicate the A’s were giving up even on this season, as, there is a in no way insurmountable deficit of 6.5 games right now that could be made up in the matter of a couple of series…
by stranahanahan on Jun 24, 2009 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah Im punting the season
We are not built to contend this year and FMart could do with the rest of the year in AAA. I believe that he is very close to untouchable and you might not even get a throw in but I also think that Holliday is the best bat on the market. Laporta was higher ranked last year and he was dealt for CC.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jun 24, 2009 1:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
and the Mets are more desperate than the Brewers were last year
If they don’t make the playoffs again especially with how much the Phillies have struggled/regressed, you’re betting Omar’s head is being served up on a platter somewhere.
"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden
"JACK! (Hannahan) You gotta stand in there and get the HBP! Your OBP will go from disgusting to merely deplorable if you develop that tactic." ~ Joey C.
by Blicks on Jun 24, 2009 1:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Some are already preparing the garnish for said event.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jun 24, 2009 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd prefer that a Holliday trade bring in an immediately useful player at 3B or CF.
But, that said, Sickles makes Haven sound interesting…
I realized I was dyslexic when I went to a toga party dressed as a goat.
by Elvez on Jun 24, 2009 11:35 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
This is why I think a Havens/Murphy/throw in might be the way to go.
You could put Murphy at the hot corner while he is cheap and I like Havens a lot. He could play 2b if you shift Weeks to CF if Green is any good. Otherwise you could shift him to 3rd as I think his bat should hold up.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jun 24, 2009 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The problem is a FMart/Havens package I think is a too much.
The A’s might be able to throw in a bullpen arm or a prospect coming back but i just don’t see 1st and 8th best prospects going for a very good rental OF and a bullpen arm.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jun 24, 2009 12:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Mets could afford to resign Holliday
"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin
by Helloooo 1st on Jun 25, 2009 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd be very surprised if we netted FMart and Mejia
let alone flores for Holliday
by asyouwish33 on Jun 24, 2009 11:35 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
What about Havens and Marte?
Figuring you will probably solve one spot on the left side of the infield in the next couple years. A little “highly rated,” a little “high upside,” the positions most in need of attention, and it’s a deal the Mets can afford to make since the left side of the infield is, to put it mildly, a strength.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jun 24, 2009 12:42 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
My understanding of Marte is that his D isn't that great
and if I was going to create a bust list from most bustable to least it would be Marte, Flores, Mejia, Tejada, Havens, Fmart, Murphy. So I would prefer a package of Murphy (MLB ready) and Havens from a we could probably use a third baseman/corner bat now rather than later.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jun 24, 2009 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I looked at Murphy's profile
and his offensive numbers in the bigs this year are pretty poor; is that just considered to be “SSS” or “he’s 24,” or is there some reason he’s not hitting much at all, either for AVG, or OBP, or SLG?
I also don’t know how good a 3Bman he’s considered to be; in the bigs he has only played LF and 1B and hasn’t exactly shone. But maybe that’s because he should be at 3B?
Certainly Murphy and Havens makes sense, if the Mets are game. Is that realistic?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jun 24, 2009 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He suffers from a low BABIP
His K to BB ratio is very good and he is hitting a fair amount of line drives. I along with Zips expect him to improve to essentially a league average bat for the rest of the year. His footwork can get messy but I think he could be an average defensive third baseman. I would expect him to be about a 2 WAR 3bman next year which unfortunately is only slightly better than Hannahan ish value with a better bat and worse D.
I think Murphy, Havens, and a throw in is one of the the most realistic scenarios. Essentially a B/B+ grade prospect, a C+ grade prospect, and a C grade prospect. I would like to think that all of my proposals are realistic though.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jun 24, 2009 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd rather hold onto Holliday, and either get picks or him back next year
At least we’d keep a bonafide hitter in our lineup, if nothing else.
"If Bowden was a general contractor, he'd build houses with nine bedrooms, six garages, no bathrooms, and half a roof."
by DyeLongJustice on Jun 24, 2009 1:23 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Why do we care about having a bonafide hitter in our line up?
Picks are of less value than the packages I proposed.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jun 24, 2009 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
depends on how much you value the Mets' system.
But you might be right, that trading Holliday might yield more value, depending on how other teams perceive Holliday’s value at the deadline.
"If Bowden was a general contractor, he'd build houses with nine bedrooms, six garages, no bathrooms, and half a roof."
by DyeLongJustice on Jun 24, 2009 4:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is highly unlikely that a team doesn't offer more than the two draft picks
because the team that acquires him would get the two draft picks if Holliday signs with another team. The idea that we would get less that two draft picks is silly IMO.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jun 24, 2009 5:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because it will help us to not lose as many games.
Just because we aren’t going to the playoffs doesn’t mean it isn’t still more fun to win than to lose.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
by iglew on Jun 25, 2009 1:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Personally, I don't care about the wins as long as my team is fun to watch
They can do that by winning, or they can do that by playing young players with awesome futures. Carlos Gonzalez sucked last year, but man he flashed signs of brilliance and his immense talent every once in a while.
by NateHST on Jun 25, 2009 1:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we are not going to make it to the playoffs Id far rather watch Aaron Cunningham suck than Matt Holliday play well.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jun 25, 2009 7:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And even he is sucking...got that play he made on the ball to LC
was absolutely painfl to watch.
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
by mrod on Jun 25, 2009 7:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
To an extent yes
But I’d also rather not see our young starters get even less run support and think they need to throw a shutout to get a win. Don’t get me wrong – I would trade Holliday if the right package was offered, but that package must be better than two high picks and half a season of Holliday.
by DeJay on Jun 25, 2009 7:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which it will almost undoubtedly be.
First of all, the half season of Holliday means much, much less to the A’s than it does to a contending team. Even if you do place value on the half season of Matty to the A’s as making the team more fun to watch, it means a lot more to a team where the wins he would garner are worth a very, very large amount more.
If the GM’s job is on the line or could be on the line, (see: Omar Minaya, Brian Sabean), a win now could woo higher ups into keeping him.
The draft picks are worth the same to the A’s as they would to another team. And, that value is insanely uncertain. And, what if the pick ends up being a second rounder? Sabathia, Burnett, Zito, etc. didn’t net first rounders. So that’s an even in value.
"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden
"JACK! (Hannahan) You gotta stand in there and get the HBP! Your OBP will go from disgusting to merely deplorable if you develop that tactic." ~ Joey C.
by Blicks on Jun 25, 2009 8:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sabathia did net a first rounder.
But the chopping block looming in the background is great for leverage.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jun 25, 2009 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oops that wasn't suppose to post
Draft picks are actually worth more to a team like the Mets as they are protected in case the Mets sign a Type A FA they don’t lose those picks, so instead of drafting in the second or third round it allows them to draft in the first round.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jun 25, 2009 11:36 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Our pitchers
Already pretty much need to throw a shutout to get a win. There wouldnt be any difference.
I’d also rather see Buck/Cunningham developing than Holliday and Giambi sucking.
Solace: Law says he's a fourth OFer
PaulThomas: I think Keith Law is only a fourth analyst
by hero66 on Jun 25, 2009 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
here here
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jun 25, 2009 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
good point. at the very least, you want to be entertained
The current version of the A’s is like watching The Monster Mash every night.
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
by mrod on Jun 25, 2009 7:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great post.
Obviously, the ideal situation is F-Mart/throw-in, but Murphy/Havens/throw-in or anything that fits in your second scenario is more realistic.
Honestly, Flores wouldn’t be an ideal guy for us. If the A’s want Flores, go sign Sano. Same cup of tea, really young Latin American SS with oodles of upside who is also years from MLB.
I think I’ve heard somewhere that the Mets can spend like 7MM. Kick in some salary, Billy/Wolff. But then, so have a lot of teams.
"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden
"JACK! (Hannahan) You gotta stand in there and get the HBP! Your OBP will go from disgusting to merely deplorable if you develop that tactic." ~ Joey C.
by Blicks on Jun 24, 2009 1:26 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Thank you.
When I write Fan posts I try to go really in depth, be thorough, and bring an interesting and realistic portrayal of baseball.
Holliday’s salary will be just about $6.75m so while it fits, the A’s could probably get a better prospect back from the Mets if they took on say $3m.
Agree on Flores but not rushing him he is only 3 years away which isn’t that bad (or in the Mets manic rushing world he’ll be ready for a cup of coffee in 2010).
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jun 24, 2009 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good post dfa and I gave you a rec.
So as long as we’re talking about potential trade partners how about the White Sox?
http://www.mlbdailydish.com/2009/6/24/923670/white-sox-ready-to-clean-house
This from The Daily Dish:
According to a report in the Arlington Heights Daily Herald, the Chicago White Sox may be interested in moving several key players.
The report indicates that with the July 31 deadline rapidly approaching the White Sox may be willing to part ways with veteran players, Jim Thome, Jermaine Dye, Jose Contreras and struggling relievers Octavio Dotel and Scott Linebrink.
I would expect the White Sox to be sellers by the July 31 deadline (or the July 5 Ozzie Guillen deadline) and move at least two of their veteran players. Look for Jermaine Dye and possibly Octavio Dotel to be on the move.
I don’t know what anyone else thinks but I would love to add Dye’s bat to the lineup and “Ducky” Dotel would certainly be an upgrade over Springer and Casilla.
Question: Who does Kenny Williams ask for in return for those two players? Bring on the trade talks! I love it!
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
by mrod on Jun 24, 2009 4:07 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I think it interferes with the rebuilding
To swap young talent for Dye makes you better now but not later – and I don’t think the A’s are close enough to go after anything in 2009.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jun 24, 2009 4:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, what do you think Kenny Williams would want for Dye? No Dotel...just Dye...
Obviously the A’s would not want to give up too much for Dye but if the A’s make a run in July and go for it then what would make sense for the A’s then? I personally would love to have JD back in the green ’n gold.
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
by mrod on Jun 24, 2009 5:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They'd want enough to make the A's worse in 2010-11
and that’s enough for me to say no. I just don’t see the A’s going anywhere in 2009 at this point.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jun 24, 2009 5:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh yee of little faith
Still alot of baseball to be played mi compadre. I’m not giving up yet and if Billy makes a move to improve the team this year I don’t thnik he’s gonna blow up the ship to get a deal done.
Plus, the A’s have alot of depth in the farm which gives them some wiggle room. We’ll see……..
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
by mrod on Jun 24, 2009 5:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with Nico I want no part of Dye or Dotel.
Dye doesn’t fix 3b SS CF the positions we need going forward.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jun 24, 2009 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
reds in market for hitter says jocketty
they fit the profile.
long time mlb team doormat maybe desperate to finally get a playoff spot.
their OF is bad, not much depth
good farm system
by Asfan4ever723 on Jun 24, 2009 5:00 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
The might be my next one in the serries, the Cards would be interested too.
Right now im just looking at team needs. Depending on how long Reyes is going to be out OCab would fit with the Mets, since he is better than Alex Cora.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jun 24, 2009 5:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree with you there
At this point I’d rather have Crosby at SS for the rest of the year so deal him to the Mets. I also agree with the Cardinals as making better trading partners for the A’s.
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
by mrod on Jun 24, 2009 5:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Regarding the Reds, wouldn't a Holliday-Todd Frazier based deal
make a ton of sense for both sides? Frazier is a 3B-SS prospect, rated “B” by Sickels, 23 years old, right-handed hitter.
Now, he’s listed as playing LF this year; does this mean he couldn’t handle 3B-SS? I don’t know, but he looks like a solid hitter, maybe a Jhonny Peralta (worst case), JJ Hardy (best case) type of hitter and defender. Anyone know more about Frazier’s development?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jun 24, 2009 6:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
johnny peralta's a pretty high floor
but the reds are interesting. i’d want another Bish prospect too though.
by Elston Gunn on Jun 25, 2009 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah Ill go into this when I go into the Reds later
JJ Hardy is good because of his defense and Frazier will never play good defense at SS. Peralta will never be a good comp for Frazier because he never walks. Also saying someone who put up a .885 OPS over a full season in the MLB is a floor is borderline silly.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jun 25, 2009 10:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
without a lot of thought
frazier+stubbs or stubbs+alonso (though probably too much from the reds point of view) seems reasonable to me
by Elston Gunn on Jun 25, 2009 8:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
those are too much
im in the process of doing my research on the reds but alonso is too much and a first basemen and we have plenty of options at 1b/DH for the future.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jun 26, 2009 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What I don't get about Stubbs and the Reds is this
Stubbs is an MLB ready CF.
Willy Taveras is absolutely awful. Without questioning the decision to sign him to a 2 year deal… why the hell is Stubbs not playing CF for the MLB club right now? He’d probably be a whole win better than Taveras has so far, and probably 2-3 wins more on the season.
But then, the A’s do it too (see: Travis Buck, Daric Barton, why Crosby is still on the MLB roster and getting any semblance of playing time).
"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden
by Blicks on Jun 26, 2009 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Two words: Dusty Baker
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jun 26, 2009 9:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can haz infield prospects?
yes please. or a CF.
You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}
by micdog2001 on Jun 24, 2009 6:30 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Guys like Havens and Flores
If we have a chance to get a good SS prospect in a deal, it would stupid not to make it. I keep thinking, “Grant Green, our SS problems our solved!” but if you have more than one good shortstop prospect, your system improves greatly. A’s fans should know just how difficult it is to get good SS/3B prospects.
If a deal was on the table that included Daniel Murphy and Reese Havens, I would jump on it. Murphy is a much better hitter than Hannahan or Crosby at 3B, and while he’s not the defender that Hannahan is, he’s already a huge improvement. He’s not the high ceiling guy everyone wants, but Murphy could stop the Cardenas to 3B project. While Cardenas at 3B is convenient, his bat plays a lot better at 2B, his natural position.
Havens is only batting .224 but he’s walking a ton (13.9%) and hitting for decent power (7 HR in 174 AB), with a BABIP of .239 which is bound to improve. At an extreme pitchers park, that’s pretty good.
I wouldn’t even argue about a third prospect/throw-in in this deal, because those two are both a lot better and safer than whatever two picks the A’s would receive in compensation.
by NateHST on Jun 24, 2009 8:26 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
go to minorleaguesplits.com
Havens would be OPSing .880 in a luck and park neutral environment. Hannahan is capable of being a two win player (granted one thats no fun to watch) Murphy could be a 2 win player who is fun to watch. Its not a very big upgrade. Haven’s bat will play at 3b according to PG crosschecker and his biggest defensive weakness is his lateral speed, suggesting that he could become a good defensive third baseman. I wish there was something more than Murphy or Marte because it is unlikely that the Mets would trade both Havens and Tejada especially with Jose Reyes’ leg trouble and Im not a big fan of either and Im hard pressed to find another prospect in the minor who A’s would want that is more than an intriguing throw in.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jun 24, 2009 10:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait a sec...
Murphy is a much better hitter than Hannahan or Crosby at 3B
Well, when you set the bar THAT low…!
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Jun 25, 2009 7:05 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Couple thoughts
F-Mart is not a CF, he’s destined for LF. The nicest scouting report on his CF defense calls him average and he scored a -12 last in Splits Plus/Minus system. Not saying he isn’t a good prospect, just that if you’re looking for him to be your long term answer in CF you’re going to be disappointed.
Personal opinion, but if Havens can’t play SS I have very little interest. Scouting reports are mixed on his ability to stay at SS.
Wilmer Flores is like 12 years old (OK, 17) and playing in Low-A ball. I think the A’s system has good depth and would be willing to gamble on the ultra high-upside Flores in exchange for Holliday.
Got nothing against Dan Murphy. Murphy and Flores would probably be my dream package. But if I had the option to choose one or the other I go Flores every time.
’Cause you can never have too much pitching, Brad Holt and Jon Niese are pretty enough to turn heads.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Jun 25, 2009 7:16 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Wilmer looks 12 though.
It’s creepy.

"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden
"JACK! (Hannahan) You gotta stand in there and get the HBP! Your OBP will go from disgusting to merely deplorable if you develop that tactic." ~ Joey C.
by Blicks on Jun 25, 2009 8:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that FMart is probably destined for not center long term
However, his route running improved markedly last year and really if he hits like he is suppose to he can play bad CF defense and still be an above average player. Lets say the goal is to be a 3 win player in CF and his defense is -10 FRAA (Josh Hamilton bad), since replacement is 20 runs/ 600 PA which seems like a reasonable projection, a 2.5 run positional adjustment bump, Martinez only has to hit 17.5 RAA or about 57th of the 147 players with enough ab to qualify in 2008 to make him a 3 win CFer (essentially the same line as Brad Hawpe put up last year) or to be a 2.5 WAR player he would only need 12.5 RAA or a Randy Winn line. That seems like a reasonable outcome.
I don’t think that you are going to get Murphy and Flores without needing to return a good bullpen arm, Wuertz or Ziggy perhaps. Honestly my favorite player in this is Havens I think he could be really excellent. I think that he can stick at SS but I also believe that his bat will play at third. Havens Green Cardenas Dolittle with Weeks Brown and Carter/Cunningham/Buck sounds like a pretty good IF to me.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jun 25, 2009 10:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Very nicely done
I enjoyed reading this post.
I do think it’s important to remember that the A’s are trading Holliday plus two picks, and it’s important to market him that way when dealing with rival execs. You want a return that exceeds the value of those two compensation picks, and also accurately reflects the return for 70-80 games of having Matt Holliday.
The first thought I had was to avoid targeting guys like Flores, F-Mart, and Mejia; the reason: they carry the “uber prospect” label, and would diminish the overall value of a return package. I think it’s better to target guys who are a bit more under the radar, so to speak, or haven’t broken out yet.
With that in mind, I think the ideal package is something like Ruben Tejada, Reese Havens, Brad Holt, and Kyle Allen. Maybe it’s a reach, but even without Allen I think that’s a nice balanced package that gives the A’s a couple of high upside players, and a couple of “high floor” guys. The fact that it addresses an organizational weakness on the left side of the infield is a nice bonus.
by CapgrasDelusion on Jun 25, 2009 8:14 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree with you, but I don't think the A's can net all 4 of those guys.
Holt is probably a better prospect than Tejada or Havens; he just wasn’t discussed much b/c he’s a pitcher. The big question with him though is whether he sticks in the rotation.
I think two of Tejada/Havens/Holt + Allen is a pretty solid package, especially in this economy (goddamn you Texas ruining rental trades for all the rest of us ++shakefist++)
Oh, your Allen link doesn’t work. Here ya go
"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden
"JACK! (Hannahan) You gotta stand in there and get the HBP! Your OBP will go from disgusting to merely deplorable if you develop that tactic." ~ Joey C.
by Blicks on Jun 25, 2009 8:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Glad you liked the post.
You are right about Flores and FMart being uber prospects and for someone like Minaya who is worried about politics so he can keep his job creating a reduced haul. I don’t think Mejia is there yet. There is no way you get that package. The Mets won’t trade two good SS prospects when Jose Reyes is starting to have injury issues with his legs, a key source of his value and leave the cupboard bare. So you’ll only get one of Havens or Tejada. Holt doesn’t do much for me. Yes he has higher upside than Niese but he also may be destined for the bullpen. We have a ton of bullpen arms. Allen looks interesting with his ground ball rate. You could probably get one of Tejada/Havens with Holt and Allen.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jun 25, 2009 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think F-Mart and two prospects is a reasonable expectation.
Kotchman/Marek is too low of a baseline for Holliday’s value; LaPorta and three for Sabathia perhaps too high. The middle sounds right to me, though. Kotchman is an experienced major leaguer, after all.
Nice diary.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on Jun 25, 2009 2:31 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Why do you think Kotchman/Marek is too low a baseline?
The A’s probably will be able to net a bit more, if they’re lucky, but realize that
1- Kotchman’s value has seriously fallen since the trade.
The big thing working in favor of the A’s that didn’t work in favor of the Braves is that more teams need OFers than teams who needed 1B last year.
And I think Wren demanded an immediate 1B replacement, which most contending teams did not have. I might be wrong though, and if he did, it actually was somewhat of a stupid idea.
"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden
by Blicks on Jun 25, 2009 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess the question is what kind of prospects
I think Fmart might be close to untouchable. Is your package FMart + a real prospect (B- or greater) and a throw in (C+ or less) or FMart plus two throw ins?
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jun 25, 2009 4:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you already gave pretty good reasons.
Wren got worked, and Holliday is in greater demand. Teixeira wasn’t coveted by many other teams at the time.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on Jun 25, 2009 2:54 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Youre definately right about the market
There was only 1 team that needed a significant upgrade at 1b which was Anaheim. I made a list of other teams my browser ate it. I really don’t think that the Braves got their two picks worth in the trade, let alone the value of Tex. Kotchman was going to be arb eligible so if he played well which is something he never showed a proclivity for he would be expensive.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on Jun 25, 2009 4:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cards Intensity Pursuit of Holliday says:
Increasingly impatient with their halting outfield production, the Cardinals are redoubling efforts to acquire Oakland A’s left fielder Matt Holliday, according to club and other sources. Reluctant to commit a multi-player package to the Colorado Rockies for Holliday last November, the Cardinals are now open to sending a similar package to Oakland for the 2007 National League batting champion.
Such a package would probably include right fielder Ryan Ludwick and either reliever Jason Motte, Chris Perez or Kyle McClellan, plus a prospect. …
by BillyWannabeane on Jun 27, 2009 11:58 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

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