Geren's Advocate
Okay, I will apologize in advance because this is going to be longer than it probably should be and likely poorly formatted but I wanted to try and express an alternate opinion on Bob Geren.
As a disappointing season drags on, the tide of public opinion here on AN has turned overwhelmingly negative in regards to manager Bob Geren. So being a natural contrarian I decided to take a shot at trying to defend the work he has put in this year. First I would like to establish my natural bias when evaluating managers. I tend to believe that the effect the manager has on the outcome of a baseball game is relatively small and so long as the players haven’t appeared to openly mutiny against the manager I don’t tend to concern myself all that much with what he is doing on a day to day basis. But this doesn’t mean we can’t judge the moves we see the manager make, it is our right as fans to be critical.
In my opinion the two aspects of a manager’s job that most influence the game is filling out the line-up card and managing the bullpen/rotation. In this fan post I am not ready to take on the task of fully evaluating Geren’s performance so I am going to focus entirely on the issue of bullpen usage. This topic seems to be popping up a lot recently as proof positive that Geren is a terrible manager so I decided to take a little closer look.
I have been of the wildly unpopular opinion that Geren has actually done a good job managing the bullpen and thought that it was one of his redeeming factors. He has been put in a very difficult situation as 4 of the A’s starters are rookies and the 5th is a second year guy who spent his first year in the majors moving between the rotation and the bullpen. Inconsistency and inexperience have limited the innings that the starters have been able to throw and threatened to put a serious strain on the relievers. The biggest bright spot this season has been the potential shown by our young starters so I would consider protecting their arms to be very important to the future of this team. That generally means that the bullpen has to take one for the team.
When looking at the usage pattern of the relievers I will focus on six guys; Santiago Casilla, Russ Springer, Craig Breslow, Brad Ziegler, Mike Wuertz, and Andrew Bailey. These guys have thrown the bulk of the innings from the bullpen as the 7th spot has largely been in flux this season. As an overview lets look at how many innings these guys have thrown so far this year as well as their ERA:
Casilla: 21.2 IP 7.06 ERA
Springer: 24.1 IP 5.55 ERA
Breslow: 26.0 IP 4.50 ERA (11.2 IP 2.31 ERA with Oakland)
Ziegler: 30.1 IP 3.86 ERA
Wuertz: 32.2 IP 3.03 ERA
Bailey: 44.1 IP 2.23 ERA
The first thing that jumps out is that Bailey has thrown way more innings than any other reliever and has also been the most effective. His use is cause for concern but I want to table that discussion until later. The other relievers have all been used between 21.2 and 32.2 innings and it was even closer before Ziegler and Wuertz were needed to throw 3 innings in the last two days. It is also apparent that the better relievers have pitched more which is pretty much what you want your manager to do, utilize guys who are pitching well and protect the guys who are stinking it up. The trick is to do this without relying too much on the good guys and wearing them down. So lets look at how many innings these relievers have thrown the last two years and how many they are projected to throw this season if the same usage pattern continues:
Casilla: 74.2, 54.0, 52.1
Springer: 66.0, 50.1, 58.1
Breslow: 68.2, 47.0, 62.2
Ziegler: 74.1, 84.0, 73.1
Wuertz: 72.1, 64.2, 79.0
Bailey: 125.0, 110.1, 107.1
At first glance it looks likes all of these guys are right in line to pitch about the same amount as they have over the last few years. The one caveat is that Andrew Bailey spent all of ’07 and half of ’08 as a starter which is why his inning count is so high, 107 innings is a ridiculously high amount for a full time reliever. I think I have to stop avoiding the Bailey issue so let’s address it now.
The most damning evidence of bullpen abuse is clearly Andrew Bailey, no reliever threw more than 95.1 innings last year and most top relievers throw between 70 and 85 depending on the circumstances. The interesting factor with Bailey is his recent past as a starter might indicate he has more resilience in his arm than a typical reliever. Even if he maintained his unprecedented pace it would still represent a career low in innings pitched for him. He is a 25 year old pitcher who has never really had arm trouble and is used to throwing 100+ innings in a year, it’s possible that if anybody could handle this workload it is him. I also don’t think that Bailey will break the century mark in IP this season despite his current pace. He was often used for two innings earlier in the season which skewed his IP totals; he is averaging 1.34 innings per appearance which is much higher than the 1.12 of Ziegler who is the next highest. Bailey last made a full two inning appearance on 5/23 and while he has had a couple of 4 or 5 out showings since then he has not thrown more than 26 pitches in any of those 13 appearances. I hold out hope that now that he is settled into the closer role of a team that will likely struggle to win half its remaining games his pace will dramatically slow. There is plenty of reason for concern with Bailey but I think it is far from a sure thing that he is destined for destruction.
The other bullpen member who has been cited as a victim of Geren is Mike Wuertz., but I think this case is not nearly as strong. As we can see from above while Wuertz is the second busiest member of the pen he is on a pace to have a similar workload to what he has done in the past and it is right around what you can expect of a good set up man. So from a macro perspective it doesn’t look like he has been overworked but maybe he has been throwing a lot of pitches which might wear him down. Well, his WHIP this year is a sparkling 0.95, compared to 1.43 and 1.37 the two previous years which suggests that his innings have generally been less taxing this year than ever before for Wuertz. If we look at the game logs we can see that he has broken the 20 pitch mark 7 times in 33 appearances. Only once was he asked to pitch the day after throwing 20+ pitches and that was to get one batter which took him 5 pitches. He has thrown on back to back days a total of 7 times with the 41 pitches he threw the last two days being his highest 2-day total. Before that he had only broken the 30 pitch mark once over a 2-day span. Hardly a consistent pattern of abuse.
Then there is Wuertz’ recent comment that he is feeling drained. I have to admit I didn’t notice this when it happened but I’m assuming he said this on the 16th after giving up two runs to the Dodgers in a demoralizing loss. I think it’s been established that there is not much evidence from his previous usage to suggest that he had been overworked prior to that point. If we just focus on the appearances immediately prior to his comment he had pitched 4 times in the previous 11 days with pitch counts of 7, 21, 5, and 4. This was probably the lightest usage he had seen all season. So the obvious counter is “Wuertz knows his arm better than any of us so if he says he’s drained we should just believe him.” But isn’t it at least equally plausible that in the midst of his worst stretch of the season where he had given up runs in his last three outings, immediately following a tough game with reporters asking to explain why he and his bullpen mates blew the game he just wanted an excuse? Relievers struggle sometimes, it is definitely a profession marked by highs and lows. I can imagine being frustrated after a rough stretch and in an especially bad mood after the game, if reporters are pestering you for answers and explanations it’s only natural to try and give them one. I mean he has looked pretty darn sharp his last two outings and not like someone who is “drained”.
So, if anyone has lasted all the way through this long and meandering post, I think Geren has done a pretty good job in a tough situation. He has been able to adjust roles on the fly and generally get our best guys in the game during high leverage situations. I like that he rewarded Bailey’s good play and was willing to let a surprise rookie become the go-to guy because he earned it. I think he has done a good job integrating Breslow into the mix despite being a mid-season addition that was not very well known. He has been willing to let Springer and Ziegler work through issues in low pressure situations and has given them more responsibility when there play merits it. The only guy who has really been under-utilized is Casilla but he hasn’t really given any indication that he should be used more. The one issue I am concerned with is his use of Bailey but I explained above why I am not ready to tar and feather Geren over it just yet. As far as Geren only trusting “his guys” and neglecting others, I don’t see it so clearly. Relievers will have different workloads over the course of a season, all we can hope for is that the good ones will get more innings than the bad ones. I think Geren has done that well up to this point and has been willing to adjust when performance dictates.
Now that I have taken my shot to defend Geren and probably bored any readers out of the urge to respond it will be interesting to see how quickly this argument gets torn to shreds.
4 recs |
187 comments
Comments
Very good post.
It can be easy to fall into groupthink about these things, and posts like this one can be a great wake-up call. I’m still really worried about Bailey, but I feel better about Geren now than I did 10 minutes ago.
by Elston Gunn on Jun 21, 2009 3:24 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Agree with most of this.
Let’s face it, Geren is in a catch-22 situation with the pitching staff here. He has to limit the innings of the rookie pitchers, he can’t overwork the bullpen, and all the while, he has to account for the inconsistencies of certain members of the bullpen and the starting staff. Whatever he does, someone’s going to complain. Geren’s not the smartest guy and he makes his fair share of WTF mistakes but sometimes I feel that people here complain about him just for the sake of complaining about him. It’s the “in” thing to do right now at AN.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jun 21, 2009 3:45 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
We saw the same thing every day with Macha,
Bagging on managers is always the thing to do.
I'll have a sandwich and a draft(sic). - Bill King (RIP)
by BleedGreen on Jun 21, 2009 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Indeed
fans are always critical…easiest job in the grandstands.
I am critical most of the time, but we’re watching for fun, so the criticism is often just emotions, not reasoned thinking. By the way…FIRE GEREN NOW!!!
"It is the mark of a truly intelligent person to be moved by statistics. " GB Shaw
by One won lost won on Jun 22, 2009 10:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good points for the most part
But Geren still sucks and I still want him gone.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
by Flashfire on Jun 21, 2009 3:52 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
+1
"If you don’t start concentrating and catching the ball, you’re going to have to deal with my black ass!"- Wash
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jun 21, 2009 4:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think with Wuertz you have to look at appearances, not innings
He has been appearing in about half the games throughout the year and that’s a lot. I also think Springer’s dive coincided with a period of heavy use, and the reason his innings are down is that he became non grata because he started pitching like crap.
My complaint is mostly that Geren is very wary of using anyone but his best guys, so he wears down the likes of Suzuki, Bailey, Wuertz while cobwebs grow on the rusty carcasses of Landon Powell, Santiago Casilla et al. You’d actually get more out of everyone if you balanced the usage out a bit more.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jun 21, 2009 4:02 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
This
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
by Flashfire on Jun 21, 2009 4:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And what I mean is he doesn't use people consistently
He goes through periods of overuse for certain people, especially the relievers, and then he hardly uses them at all. It leads to it looking like people are in line for fairly normal inning paces but the timing of how they’re used says otherwise.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
by Flashfire on Jun 21, 2009 4:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So if he brings Casilla or Springer into a tight game and they blow the game
You wouldn’t complain? Or rather, the masses here won’t complain about Geren’s moves losing another game? Like I said, catch-22.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jun 21, 2009 4:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Casilla should be gone already
He doesn’t have the makeup to be consistent
"If you don’t start concentrating and catching the ball, you’re going to have to deal with my black ass!"- Wash
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jun 21, 2009 4:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know about the masses, but no I wouldn't complain
because I would understand the need to use everyone you have and not to burn out your best guys trying to succeed in the very short term. Nor would I complain if Powell got more regular starts as backup catcher, even though we all know that starting Suzuki on any given day gives the team a better chance to win.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jun 21, 2009 5:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok, if we look at appearances it goes like this
Breslow – 35
Bailey – 33
Wuertz – 33
Springer – 30
Ziegler – 27
Casilla – 21
Wuertz 33 appearances are good enough to tie him for 19th most in MLB along with 11 other guys. There are 64 pitchers who have appeared in 30 or more games. Basically, no matter how you want to look at it Wuertz usage is what you would expect from a good set-up man.
I don’t think that he is wary of using anyone but his best guys, he is just wary of using Casilla. I don’t think it makes him a stubborn manager because he is reluctant to use his 6th best reliever in tight situations.
by DiegoAsFan on Jun 21, 2009 4:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The two guys on the bottom of that list
were both on the DL (or did they not DL Ziggy? anyway, he was sick for a long time). I wouldn’t be at all surprised to find out that they’re being very careful with Casilla in order to prevent a flare-up of his leg problem.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Jun 21, 2009 4:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good research and reasoning
I want to echo lenscrafters’ point above: there’s no doubt that the team is bad, but I think the “Fire Geren” bandwagon long ago strayed into confirmation bias territory.
One more point of context: the A’s starting rotation at the beginning of the season was the least experienced Opening Day rotation in something like the last 30 years. And Dana Eveland was the most experienced guy on the Opening Day staff.
So, now Geren is managing 4 rookies (only one of whom has ever thrown even 100 innings in a AAA season before) and Dallas Braden (who’s also never thrown 100 innings in a AAA season). And his closer is a rookie, too.
So, just remember that you’re watching history. Especially where crucial innings are concerned, this is one of the 2 or 3 least experienced pitching staffs in the last 30 years, and possibly the single least experienced staff.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Jun 21, 2009 4:11 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Excellent post
Sounds like you may be considering a follow-up post on lineup construction and use of hitters. If so, I look forward to it.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
by iglew on Jun 21, 2009 4:24 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
And what about the questionable strategic decisions?
Yes, a manager has a very limited effect on the outcome of the game. The problem is his very questionable decision making that doesn’t put the team in the best possible situation to win. More often than not, when the Geren bashing starts up, it’s usually based on one of these moves. His bullpen use (over working a pitcher) brings on groans and annoyance at killing an arm, but that’s not generally the primary target for why people want him fired.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
by DMOAS on Jun 21, 2009 4:29 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
+1
Lineup and defensive switch decisions are horrid and inexcusable.
Plus, he takes this lefty-righty shit too seriously. No way Breslow should’ve come out of the game today.
Solace: Law says he's a fourth OFer
PaulThomas: I think Keith Law is only a fourth analyst
by hero66 on Jun 21, 2009 5:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe a manager's effect on the outcome of one game is small,
but the tone he sets and the psychological methods he uses to get the most out of his troops matter a lot, and I think Geren is highly deficient in both categories here.
"If you don’t start concentrating and catching the ball, you’re going to have to deal with my black ass!"- Wash
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jun 21, 2009 4:31 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Do you give him credit for the performance of the young pitching staff so far?
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Jun 21, 2009 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm more likely to give credit to Young (and only a little at)
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
by DMOAS on Jun 21, 2009 4:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Young has done a great job
And I know you didn’t post the original comment I was responding to, but here’s why I asked:
Not everyone is sucking. The same “atmosphere” that Geren has created has been nothing but good, as far as I can see, for Braden, Cahill, Mazzaro, Bailey, and Outman (despite his complaining one day after being pulled from the game).
Those guys are incredibly young and inexperienced. It would seem bizarre to me to say that the manager’s terrible, loserish tone can affect veterans like Giambi and Cabrera, but have no negative effect on a bunch of raw rookies.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Jun 21, 2009 4:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or maybe *gasp* a manager's "tone" or "psychological methods" matters little at all.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jun 21, 2009 5:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You must be self-employed.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jun 21, 2009 5:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL okay. I'm not but anyways, it's irrelevant.
Here’s something interesting to consider:
Through the history of the major leagues, there has been no correlation whatsoever between a manager’s “fieryness” or “temperament” or “non-loserish attitude” and team performance. And yet, people continue to place stock into this. Why?
Let’s see if I can figure out where this line of thinking comes from. It’s probably likely that a large number of baseball fans also played some form of Little League + other organized baseball. From there, we remember the rah rah coaches, the exciting coaches who got us excited for the game, the little league coaches who kept us from picking daisies in the outfield and actually got us interested in baseball. And we build attachments and connections to these coaches and we start to appreciate this archetype. We appreciate these archetypes in future bosses as well.
Then we see a guy like Geren, someone who seemingly doesn’t fit this archetype, at least from what we can see from the stands, or behind our TVs and computers. And we despise him for it. We then build a case against him justifying our dislike using confirmation bias. And finally, we translate our biases against him into the assumption that he’s somehow hurting our favorite team and causing our players to underperform (because we assume we wouldn’t perform well under him either).
Part of being a fan is trying to find a way to emotionally connect with the player. We try to find similarities between us and them as much as we can and this is all a natural part of forming an emotional attachment. We think they’re just like us. But through this all, we neglect the fact that major league ballplayers aren’t like us at all. The parallels we try to draw between the major league workplace and our own workplace are inaccurate and skewed simply because major league baseball is so very different from our workplace. And we ignore the fact that just getting to the major leagues and performing at that high level requires extreme mental toughness, the type of toughness that isn’t affected by whether or not you like your boss.
But hey, the confirmation bias continues. We ignore tidbits like how the rookies are doing well under Geren and instead focus on the veterans underperforming (and thus, blaming Geren for it even though it’s more likely because of other variables). We believe, or perhaps manufacture, the idea that the players are performing “listlessly” or “without energy,” even though stuff like this is entirely a matter of perspective and extremely subjective (side note: I’ve always found it interesting how fans always seem to say their team has a lot of “energy” when they’re winning and “listless and lackadaisical” when they’re losing). We ignore the fact that we really have no evidence of this either way other than our biased perspectives. And finally, we find a scapecoat (hello Bob Geren!).
Anyways, this is my best attempt to analyze the root of the “the manager’s attitude matters!” argument. Take from it what you will.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jun 21, 2009 8:14 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
One thing I'll grant you
is that it’s hard to tell HOW the players are responding to Geren. BUT you’re making a major assumption that somehow they’re “mental” toughness allows them to exist beyond human nature that seems to transcend industries. Poor management leads to poor performance. That’s basic nature of the workplace. I actually don’t think baseball is any different in that regard and you’re making a major assumption that it is. There are definitely people out there who regardless of management will perform above and beyond. But there are also people out there who require an appropriate atmosphere to keep them on task. And there are a number of players who, based on changes in scenery, would suggest it. Just because the players are the “best of the best” doesn’t somehow make everyone there or even a majority part of the former group. All being in the majors tells you is they have exceptional talent. It doesn’t necessarily translate to better mental strength. Hell, look at how many head cases there are in the game, how many who had to play with a number of teams before reaching their potential.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
by DMOAS on Jun 21, 2009 8:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And you seem to be assuming
that all the players who are succeeding are the kinds who succeed no matter what the managerial atmosphere is, and all the players who are failing are the kinds who depend on the manager.
When it could in fact be exactly the opposite.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Jun 21, 2009 8:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Moreover it is simply human nature,
whether you’re talking about kids or adults, to need to be pushed, supervised, accountable, etc., in order to be your best. If mediocre effort is praised or tolerated, only a select few will keep pushing their hardest anyway. It’s just the way people tend to be, at any age and in any profession.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jun 21, 2009 8:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know where I work
if I do a terrible job repeatedly, I don’t have thousands of people who paid to watch me boo me. I also don’t have reporters ask me why I suck and whether my career should be over.
Baseball players get a fair amount of accountability directly from the game and the fans.
And we don’t actually know all that much about how Geren interacts with the players directly. What he says to the media isn’t necessarily the same as what he says to the players privately.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Jun 21, 2009 8:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can help
Next time you mess up, I’ll see to it that you’re booed by many.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jun 21, 2009 8:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Heh
more of an aside than and argument against that, but I’ve personally found the behind the back criticism to be far more devastating than the direct accountability from my boss. Though, I take the direct more seriously. But accountability doesn’t really exist in my office which just annoys the hell out of me (even if it’s me how should be).
But to you’re point, there seems to be two arguments. 1) whether good management matters in baseball and it’s effect 2) whether Geren is a good manager and has he been performing the duties.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
by DMOAS on Jun 21, 2009 8:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it matters on the extremes
It would be a disaster if I tried to run the A’s, for instance.
But Joe Torre, who’s now considered one of the greatest managers ever, had a pretty lousy career before he was hired to run the Yankees. Tony LaRussa was a miracle worker for about 6 years with the A’s, then was a pain in the ass running a team going nowhere. Lou Piniella led the M’s to the greatest regular season ever, then went home to Tampa and managed the suckfest that was the Devil Rays.
The exact same manager can win 116 games or 59. It’s mostly about the players.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Jun 21, 2009 8:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"The exact same manager can win 116 games or 59. It’s mostly about the players."
I wish this is stamped in bold on the front page.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jun 21, 2009 9:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So basically, your personal managerial style preferences are what MLB/A's ballpayers prefer too?
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jun 21, 2009 8:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep
And even those who keep pushing their hardest, the more they’re knocked down by those who put forth the mediocre effect, will reach a breaking point and will give up. Though, that’s a harder situation to parallel in baseball.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
by DMOAS on Jun 21, 2009 8:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yup.
Except I’m basing my assumption on the fact that there is no correlation between managerial atmosphere and team performance. What’s your evidence other than personal anecdote?
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jun 21, 2009 8:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've yet to hear of an industry that doesn't have that relationship
so as a total cop out, I’d question what proof do you have that this is the exception to the rule?
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
by DMOAS on Jun 21, 2009 8:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where's your evidence?
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
by Flashfire on Jun 21, 2009 8:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where's your evidence?
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on Jun 22, 2009 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sounds like an Illinois courtroom!
"If you don’t start concentrating and catching the ball, you’re going to have to deal with my black ass!"- Wash
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jun 22, 2009 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The reason why I didn't answer this is because I already answered it below...
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jun 22, 2009 5:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can't prove there's no correlation, just the same as others can't prove there really is.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
by Flashfire on Jun 21, 2009 8:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure I can.
Baseball has existed for a long time now. Assuming the hypothesis that “desirable temperament” (or perhaps as Nico would prefer, Joe Maddon or Jim Leyland types) managers have a positive effect on team performance, then this correlation would’ve been noticed a long time ago. Thus, the game would have seen a steady evolution towards a proliferation of these types of managers. But this obviously isn’t the case.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jun 21, 2009 8:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, but those are still assumptions on your part
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
by Flashfire on Jun 21, 2009 8:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm assuming that every manager in MLB currently isn't like a Joe Maddon archetype.
Oh wait, am I really “assuming” that?
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jun 21, 2009 8:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not saying that having those qualities
means your team will win. I’m saying that having those qualities means you are adding, rather than subtracting, to the overall equation.
No, neither Suzuki nor Geren is a “12 win” player. If a manager can be “worth” only a couple wins or losses because the players are worth 160, there are still better and worse managers, better and worse qualities.
I’m not arguing that a different manager could win with this group; I’m arguing that a different manager could have this group performing just a little better.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jun 21, 2009 9:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess we have differing opinions of what "performance" consitutes
I think what you’re saying is that you believe that getting “better” performance means a manager that is able to get a player to do stuff like run out a groundball. Whereas by “performance,” I mean strictly in terms of wins and losses and player statistical performances.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jun 21, 2009 9:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You may be right.
I think that if players play harder and smarter, are more focused, etc., wins/losses and statistical performance can be impacted more than 0%, but you may not and that’s ok – just different perspectives.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jun 21, 2009 9:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How are those assumptions?
He’s right. If there was a clear formula for what makes a winning major, then every team (who behaved rationally so take out the Pirates…) would chose to employ it.
Or are you really trying to argue that it’s an “assumption” to believe that teams would not wish to do what is in the best interest of winning?
by Pucking Insane on Jun 22, 2009 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Everything not quantifiable has to be based on
assumption, belief, intuition, or something else.
The A’s brought Giambi in partly because of the leadership the A’s felt he would bring to the clubhouse, which according to some insiders (e.g., Ken Korach) has paid dividends.
Springer gives up HRs like they’re going out of style, but also showed Braden a cutter whose addition has coincided with Braden turning a corner as a pitcher.
So sometimes what is believed to be “in the best interest of winning” may not be directly shown in a given player’s stats or the team’s immediate W/L pct. and those beliefs are often based on assumption, general belief systems, intuitions, etc. – whether right or wrong.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jun 22, 2009 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Temperament is a big assumption.
And a mischaracterization. Effective leadership is a better word for it; it doesn’t have to come with any specific temperament or “archetype.”
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on Jun 22, 2009 4:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fine let's use "effective leadership"
Which everyone has a different definition of and different perspective of what constitutes it. But in any case, there still isn’t a correlation between any specific type of “leadership” and win percentage, baed on the fact that there isn’t one homogenous type of “effective leadership” present in MLB today.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jun 22, 2009 5:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So then there isn't such a thing as a manager
who would be the best choice for every team. I think we all agree on that. That doesn’t mean there might not be better managers for this team or that Bob Geren is a “50th percentile” major league manager.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jun 22, 2009 6:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why does there have to be one?
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on Jun 22, 2009 6:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because if it isn't provable, it must not be true?
{gets struck down by hand of Big Bang}
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jun 22, 2009 6:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Isn't that the point?
Many managers with various styles have been able to win games. Ken Macha and Art Howe won games. On the other side of the spectrum, Jim Leyland has won games. You can’t predict or determine which managerial types that are conducive to winning or losing, hence what I mean by “no correlation.”
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jun 22, 2009 8:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess you don't like undefinable variables very much
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
by Flashfire on Jun 22, 2009 6:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
By that, I guess that's another way of saying I don't like "intangibles"
Meh, yeah I guess don’t care much for those.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jun 22, 2009 8:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why is that, though?
I know there has been a strong movement to try applying a formula, stat or whatever to as many parts of the game as possible (even in terms of defensive positioning based on the percentage of baseballs hit to certain parts of the field), but there will always be variables factoring into the mix we can neither predict nor define.
We’ve seen a manager’s style work well in one place but not in another. Sure, a lot of that has to do with the players around him being better in one place than they are in the other. We’ve also seen some managers get more out of the same group of players than the guy that was fired. We’ve also seen other managers get less out of them. There is no set way to be able to say “The way this guy manages will always mean that (insert something that happens here).”
How many times have you seen someone hit a fly ball 395 feet to center field and said “Man, if only he hit it a few more feet to right!” If he did, who’s to say he’d have hit it the same way, with as much power? Maybe that millimeter or two difference leads to a popup instead. Same thing with hitting a ball to a part of the ballpark with a higher fence than another part there, or another ballpark entirely. You can’t expect that ground ball will hit the lip of the infield grass and take a bad hop on the shortstop, fouling up that double play.
I just accept that there will always be elements of the game we can’t control or define. That’s part of what I enjoy about it. As much as I like getting into all the stats as a whole, I don’t want the sport to be ruled by numbers 100%.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
by Flashfire on Jun 23, 2009 9:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't worry, because it will never be
What I treasure about baseball is that it routinely makes fools out of those who try to reduce it to any one kind of “truth,” be it stats, metrics, observations, theories, you name it.
To be humble is to be right in baseball, because you find yourself saying “I don’t really know” a lot – and that is the only truth.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jun 23, 2009 9:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is a lot of luck - good and bad - involved
I’m not going to get into the debate again about how much is attributed to luck alone, though. ;-)
There will always be a combination of the above parts that make up the baseball whole.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
by Flashfire on Jun 23, 2009 9:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not even referring to luck
There’s also mental and emotional factors, physical factors we – and even the player – may not be aware of.
Scouting, and predicting, are just not exact Sciences and never will be. It’s what makes the game so fun and intriguing to watch and analyze: Nobody can ever master it.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jun 23, 2009 9:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The reason why I don't care is because I don't think those matter very much.
If they did, then statistical predictions would be very inaccurate, inconsistent from year to year, and wouldn’t even be considered. But in general they’re not, they do a far better job of measuring and predicting than anyone could expect, which leads to me to believe that the unmeasurable part of baseball probably isn’t influencing the game as much as some would believe.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jun 23, 2009 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
At least that's a bit different than saying stuff dismissively like "It's a fact that..." and so on...
…just because you’re not one for intangibles.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
by Flashfire on Jun 23, 2009 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I can't speak for other fans but my issue is not with being "rah rah,"
or overt shows of emotion. I look at things like whether a team plays hard all the time and whether a lack of full effort is tolerated. If I see a guy jog down the line after popping up, and then see it tolerated, I will question the leadership. Joe Maddon is not psycho-emotional; however, his players know that if they strike out it’s one thing but if they fail to run out a ground ball it’s another. They are accountable.
Blaming Maddon this year because his team isn’t leading the division, when he’s the same guy he was last year, would be bias. Preferring Maddon’s style of holding players accountable over Geren’s style of making excuses for them is a little different.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jun 21, 2009 8:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also, I prefer Maddon's style of treating different players differently,
over Geren’s seemingly one-size-fits-all treatment of the players.
Some players need positive reinforcement. Some need negative reinforcement. Others need to be left the f**k alone.
"If you don’t start concentrating and catching the ball, you’re going to have to deal with my black ass!"- Wash
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jun 22, 2009 9:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
true in a lot of disciplines
"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball
by flipgatey3 on Jun 22, 2009 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh leave me the f** alone, would you?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jun 22, 2009 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which is probably why
a “formula” for management doesn’t exist. You need to fit the various personnel.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
by DMOAS on Jun 22, 2009 3:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
which is why managers need to be shifted often.
As the personality of the team changes, what it needs out of its’ manager changes.
Of course, the great ones can adapt with the club. However, there aren’t that many great ones with proven track records, and there aren’t enough MLB clubs to allow hundreds of unproven managers to try their hand.
All I want as a fan is a manager the caliber of Maddon, Francona, Scioscia, Gardenhire, Leyland, or Cox. Some might say this is too much to ask, but I don’t think so. There are a lot of intelligent coaches in baseball that don’t get to advance as far as they should, either because they’re too smart and scare their superiors, or because they don’t have the right buddies in the right places to get them the hookups they need.
This is a team that through the years has gotten by on less than stellar resources through innovative management techniques. I’m not talking Moneyball, either. I’m talking all the way back to Connie Mack. Maybe it’s time to rethink what makes an effective baseball manager, and I think the right guy to do this rethinking is Mr. Billy Beane himself, because the man has proven his effectiveness at taking other peoples’ original research and putting it to good use running a baseball club.
If it’s true that the average manager’s affect is +/- 2 victories, then maybe it’s time for the historically innovative Oakland Athletics to find, train, or build a manager that can do even better, preferably one that, although on board with the team’s overall strategy, sometimes clashes with the GM a little. There’s got to be someone in this organization who’s job it is to tell Mr. Beane that he’s full of shit once in a while. Hell, everyone’s full of shit once in a while!
And don’t boot Geren out of the organization, either. Give him a year off as a “scout” and then let him go back to Sacramento and manage there until he turns 80. Many of the things that turn us off about Geren (especially his positive attitude during times when he should be more angry than positive) as an MLB manager are huge assets in the minors, where the focus is on development instead of winning.
"If you don’t start concentrating and catching the ball, you’re going to have to deal with my black ass!"- Wash
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jun 22, 2009 4:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's a good point -
the qualities that don’t work well in the bigs can work well at AAA. Bob Geren: AAAA manager.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jun 22, 2009 4:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agreed with both of you
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
by DMOAS on Jun 22, 2009 4:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hell, there are plenty of people right here on AN
Who are perfectly willing to tell Billy Beane he’s full of shit.
However, that’s not quite sufficient. It would only really be an advantage to the organization if the A’s manager – unlike most of the folks here who have tried their hand at it – were actually right when they told Billy Beane he was full of shit.
by Faust on Jun 22, 2009 5:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ron Washington was right,
when he grumbled inaudibly behind Mr. Beane’s back…
Not good enough, though…
"If you don’t start concentrating and catching the ball, you’re going to have to deal with my black ass!"- Wash
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jun 22, 2009 11:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What was he right about, and what was Beane wrong about?
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jun 23, 2009 12:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"All I want as a fan is a manager the caliber of Maddon, Francona, Scioscia, Gardenhire, Leyland, or Cox."
Hmm, quite a few of those managers you listed actually employ detrimental strategies (bunting, hit and running etc) more often than Geren. And here we are complaining about how tactically unsound Geren is…
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jun 23, 2009 12:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The fallacy is in thinking those are "detrimental strategies"
as opposed to thinking they are devices that can be used or abused. Frequency is not the issue; rather timing is the issue.
Personally, I think the suicide squeeze is probably the dumbest strategic play of all of the devices (if the infield is back, you don’t need to squeeze; if the infield is in you have a .400 hitter at the plate). Yet were I a manager I would call for the suicide squeeze once/twice each year, just so the opposing manager would always have to wonder whether this might be the one time I would call it. Calling for the squeeze regularly is dumb, but letting other teams know it’s in your toolbag is smart.
Sending Cust yesterday was smart because Rule One (IMO) is “take what they give you,” and Sanchez can’t hold runners nor were the Giants paying a lick of attention to Cust. That doesn’t mean that sending Cust tonight would be smart.
Managers aren’t tactically sound or unsound based on how often they use a given tool; they’re tactically sound or unsound based on when they use it.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jun 23, 2009 8:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
"If you don’t start concentrating and catching the ball, you’re going to have to deal with my black ass!"- Wash
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jun 23, 2009 9:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Except you're ignoring the fact that there are very very few situations in which those strategies are beneficial, at least for your overall run expectancies
Thus, the potential for abuse is far greater than the potential for benefits. It stands to reason that if someone like Jim Leyland decides to bunt a lot (which he does, or at least more than Geren) then he has a greater probability of costing his team runs overall (unless of course, he has a run expectancy matrix memorized for every situation and bunts only in those beneficial situations.) Which I highly doubt because that would likely lead him to bunt less.
Those strategies aren’t always, irrevocably bad, but most of the time they are. Therefore, they are usually detrimental. So if someone employs them more than Geren, I’d say they are potentially and tangibly hurting their team.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jun 23, 2009 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder if Leyland has a ballpark run expectancy matrix in his subconscious
maybe not an exact one, but a 95% exact one…
Managers whose instincts/hunches are in close correlation with statistically proper baseball management are hawt.
And I agree, Leyland bunts too much, but I’d still rather have him over Geren, and if we did, I would bitch that Leyland bunts too much.
It’s hard for me to imagine a lot of “Fire Leyland Now” action, though, because he’s better with bullpen management, personnel management and strategy, than anyone we’ve had here since Tony LaRussa.
"If you don’t start concentrating and catching the ball, you’re going to have to deal with my black ass!"- Wash
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jun 23, 2009 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think things like that are also impacted by how good an offense is
Teams that have better hitters will still score their runs no matter how much sacrifice bunts help or hurt them. The A’s often struggle just to get a couple runners on in an inning and giving up a free out often tends to go nowhere for them as it is.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
by Flashfire on Jun 23, 2009 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Personally, I rarely like a bunt with
a runner at first and nobody out, but I’m not at all opposed to bunting with first/second nobody out if the batter at the plate, plus the one on deck and in the hole, are such that in staying out of a possible back-breaking DP you are forcing the defense either to play back and concede a run (and a hit scores two) or to walk the bases loaded and face a better hitter than the one who is bunting.
Again, “bunting good / bunting bad” isn’t the issue; it’s when you bunt and why.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jun 23, 2009 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Believe it or not I can see how it would
I work in an office where once you get into the office politics, it can really drag you down. The longer you stay there, the more it effects you and the less leadership shown, the less you’re inclined to produce, particularly when you know it can be managed better. BUT, there have been plenty of new people who are there or who have been there ready and revving to go. They haven’t been effected by the politics of the place just yet. They don’t see it, so they’re not effected. The more experience they pick up, the more they see the problems, the more it’ll weigh on them.
All the vets on this team have seen good management (or what they perceive to be good management). They see the way Geren handles this team and his tone and, knowing it can be better, knowing there’s little they can do to change it, they’re weighed down by it. It hangs in the back of their mind too much when they should be focusing on the job at hand. The kids, well they don’t know better so they haven’t been effected yet. They just see it as part of the major leagues when it’s not. Now, is that on Geren as the manager that the vet can’t get it out of their heads, not necessarily. But would the morale and the atmosphere only benefit by significant changes in the political/philosophical management? Very likely.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
by DMOAS on Jun 21, 2009 7:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's a lot of assumptions going on here...
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jun 21, 2009 8:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And above you're making a pretty major assumption.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
by DMOAS on Jun 21, 2009 8:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The problem is
that one has to make assumptions in pursuit of knowing the unquantifiable.
"If you don’t start concentrating and catching the ball, you’re going to have to deal with my black ass!"- Wash
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jun 22, 2009 9:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes...
But the bigger the assumption made, the more it needs to correlate to something tangible in order to support it’s conclusions.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
by DMOAS on Jun 22, 2009 3:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So the fact that not every manager is a Jim Leyland or Joe Maddon or whatever managerial archetype you prefer isn't "tangible" enough for you?
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jun 22, 2009 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can't speak to your workplace
but a major league club is not an office. I don’t think it makes a lot of sense to compare them and try to apply lessons from one to the other.
All the vets on this team have seen good management (or what they perceive to be good management). They see the way Geren handles this team and his tone and, knowing it can be better, knowing there’s little they can do to change it, they’re weighed down by it. It hangs in the back of their mind too much when they should be focusing on the job at hand. The kids, well they don’t know better so they haven’t been effected yet.
Well, that’s all pure speculation, and it seems like you’re bending over backwards to come up with an explanation for why a multiple-time All-Star like Jason Giambi can’t do his job because…why, exactly? His manager isn’t motivating him? He’s giving up because the team isn’t going anywhere? I could buy that last one, that an old veteran whose career is coming to an end just isn’t very motivated and isn’t staying in shape and is just playing out the string. But that’s not about Geren’s style so much as the objective situation of being a 37 year-old slugger who can’t hit fastballs, playing for a probable last-place team in front of small crowds.
And I have a very, very, very hard time believing that you’d support this theory — that a manager has a huge impact on the level of play of 15-year veterans but practically none on the level of play of rookies who’ve barely even played at AAA — if Giambi and Cabrera were playing well and the rookies were struggling. Then it would be all about how Geren is terrible at nuturing the young guys.
And I say that because that’s exactly what the AN consensus is about Geren WRT the young position players. He gets lots of blame for Buck’s struggles, but no credit for the pitchers’ success.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Jun 21, 2009 8:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Giambi is under performing
because he’s old and well, kind of sucks now. Not because of Geren. How much of an impact does Geren have on this, hopefully very little. My basic point is that if you put someone in there with good leadership skills, it would only be a good thing. Put someone in there with poor leadership skills and it can only be a bad thing. How much overall effect is there? Really hard to quantify and I won’t pretend that it’s the same as my particular office or my particular situation. I just know it exists, and you can and probably should debate the quantity of that influence. But, like I said, the only argument I’d make on it is that you get the “right” guy in there to lead this team, they may not be a contender, but it would only be a good thing.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
by DMOAS on Jun 21, 2009 8:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And I'm saying that, judging from the performance of the young pitching staff
which is, again, the youngest starting staff to go this long into a season in at least 30 years, Geren has “good leadership skills”.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Jun 21, 2009 8:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right
And as I suggested, the younger/newer the player, the less an effect poor management would have on them. They’re in the “prove myself regardless of the atmosphere” stage of their career. And to be honest, I do question whether Geren’s leadership has actually held back the young staff and wonder if it could actually be even better.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
by DMOAS on Jun 21, 2009 8:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sorry, DMOAS, I think this is a post-hoc justification for hating Geren
I think it’s frankly absurd to say that a team of 21-year-olds can run themselves and teach themselves how to play in the majors, but talented veterans need tons of input from the manager to succeed.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Jun 21, 2009 8:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Heh
No, I don’t like Geren because of his managerial moves putting the team in a poor position to win games. Everything we’re discussing here is not something I’d use to make an argument for his dismissal or my dislike for him. It’s purely circumstantial and even harder to prove. But in combination with his poor strategic moves, I’m simply more likely to believe it to be true, even if I wouldn’t necessarily bet on it or consider it fact.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
by DMOAS on Jun 21, 2009 8:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the real counter-argument here is Holliday
With Holliday you have a veteran player in his contract year. How much motivation can a manager really add in a situation like that?
by rrryanc on Jun 22, 2009 10:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cabrera is in a walk year, too
Cust and Zook are approaching their arbitration years, so their performances mean a tremendous amount to them financially.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Jun 22, 2009 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nick, I think you're going to be right in looking at ANY
one player and asking, “Is he performing worse because of the manager’s impact on leadership, tone-setting, whatever?” And so you could go through each player, one by one, conclude the same thing and then by deduction say it must not be the case with the team as a whole.
The flaw in the argument, IMO, is that the team is different from just “each part added together.” 1 + 1 + 1… may be 25, but “the team” exists separately, as attitudes, work ethics, concentration levels, spirit, etc. bleed through the various parts in real but not traceable routes. And I think a manager probably impacts a team more than he impacts players one by one.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jun 21, 2009 8:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Although, sometimes managers who treat everyone the same
are failures,
because they need to treat different players differently, use different motivational techniques, and craft effective lines of communication with players of different backgrounds and languages.
"If you don’t start concentrating and catching the ball, you’re going to have to deal with my black ass!"- Wash
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jun 22, 2009 9:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is true
But discussing Geren’s tone and psychological methods is very subjective. I’ll leave that to the professionals with access to the players, I just wanted to fiddle around with the numbers.
by DiegoAsFan on Jun 21, 2009 4:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would just like to point out that this thread proves that Bob Geren is the Devil.
Don't believe in yourself.
Believe in Me who believes in You.
by Zonis on Jun 21, 2009 4:53 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
"Sympathy for the Geren"
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Jun 21, 2009 5:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not gonna eat it...
Give it to Mikey…
(or MikeV for that matter!)
"If you don’t start concentrating and catching the ball, you’re going to have to deal with my black ass!"- Wash
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jun 22, 2009 9:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Disagree
with this post. Bailey’s usage has been indefensible. I think he’s durable and capable of throwing a lot of innings but I don’t know if there’s any track record of starters-turned-relievers throwing 100+ innings their first season in the big leagues or their first full season in the majors. If we’re going to coddle young starters who have never pitched anywhere near 200 innings in a season, why wouldn’t we do a similar thing with relievers? I think we can all agree that Bailey will put much more stress on his arm this year than any previous year of his professional career.
And it’s not only how much Bailey’s been used. It’s WHEN he’s been used. Go to b-r and look at his game log.
5/7: Already established as our best reliever, got the final two outs of a 9-4 victory on 0 days rest. He pitched the next day as well.
6/6 against Baltimore: pitched 1.1 innings with a 9-4 lead (I guess he had a whopping 2 days rest, but if you just want to get him some work, why bring him in in the 8th?)
6/7: On no days rest, he pitched the ninth in a 3-0 victory. I know all managers give their closers these gimme saves, but I can still disagree with the strategy. We ended up using him for a third day in a row the next day and could have pitched him for multiple innings had we not put him in a low-leverage situation the day before.
And yeah, Casilla and Springer have struggled. If they were put in a high leverage situation and blew the game, people would complain. That doesn’t mean it would be the wrong decision. Both are good relievers who have had a poor 20 innings or so. We can’t afford to relegate them to the back of the bullpen when they’re both capable of getting ML hitters out. Even over a full season relievers’ ERAs are highly volatile. Although most managers might do the same thing, it’s silly to relegate a guy like Springer to the back of the ‘pen because he’s had a rough few outings. It’s that type of logic that makes you trade Keith Foulke for Billy Koch.
And yeah, I also hate Geren’s defensive replacements and other aspects of his managing, but it’s probably not worth getting into that now.
by swatnick on Jun 21, 2009 6:05 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Yep
Just because someone’s had a poor week or a few bad outings doesn’t mean he’s suddenly terrible and will never get people out consistently again. Geren is too quick to ride the hot hand until the guy’s worn out and also fast to forget about someone going through a rough patch. All of these relievers are capable of getting hitters out and are going to have their ups and downs.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
by Flashfire on Jun 21, 2009 6:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
See, this is where I think we start getting into broad generalizations
Geren is too quick to ride the hot hand until the guy’s worn out and also fast to forget about someone going through a rough patch.
I don’t really think this is the case, Ziegler went through a bit of a rough patch and he is already back working the 8th inning. Springer hit some pretty bad struggles and has been trying to get his form back in low pressure situations but I think we are already seeing Geren start to work him back in. It sounds like your talking about Casilla, if you don’t like the way Geren has handled Casilla just say that rather than generalize one situation and act like it’s a pattern.
by DiegoAsFan on Jun 21, 2009 7:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Zig's role has decreased. For awhile his usage has been up and down
Not that I disagree with all of it the changes, but his role dramatically changed as a result of his occasional failures. But you look at most of the kids that have been brought over the last couple of years and he’s barely given them a real chance. A kid only works his way out of it when the manager basically says you’ve got the job for a while regardless of what you do. When you’re sucking bad and are out of it, there’s no reason not to do this and the only person I see him really giving that chance to was Barton last year and then only because there wasn’t another alternative for him to jerk around.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
by DMOAS on Jun 21, 2009 8:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You could say Anderson this year.
Ziggy’s role has resurfaced again – I think that one’s hard to judge because of the illness/weakness factor. He’s only now, I think, pitching for real rather than going out there because the A’s need an arm.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jun 21, 2009 8:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But you look at most of the kids that have been brought over the last couple of years and he’s barely given them a real chance.
Who are you talking about exactly?
Zook? Sweeney? Buck? They all had extensive playing time. Sweeney played a lot last year and exceeded expectations. He’s played a lot this year and hasn’t hit that well. And people have complained extensively here about Geren playing Sweeney too much, especially at Buck’s expense.
I really get the feeling that most of AN has decided to hate Geren because the team’s record is bad, and they’ll figure out the details (and the criteria for judging a manager) after they’ve made that decision.
I don’t even love Geren that much. I just dislike the way people are coming to a conclusion, and then coming up with the standards for judging managerial effectiveness in order to justify the conclusion they’ve already reached.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Jun 21, 2009 8:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cunningham, Buck (this year), Petit, (hell even Patterson)
I was speaking about the guys who actually performed pretty well from the start. Nor am I talking about the guys who there simply wasn’t an alternative (see Hannahan and groan). Nor am I necessarily talking about guys who would will actually be better than replacement level. Odds are we’re not missing anyone special, but given no real chance, we don’t really know what we have.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
by DMOAS on Jun 21, 2009 8:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
When Cunningham's been up, he's played
He started 10 out of 12 games between May 30th and June 10th, when he was sent down.
If you think he should be on the roster instead of Davis, fine. But that’s Beane’s call, not Geren’s.
I agree about Petit. He’s mostly played well when he’s played, and I think he could have been used to rest Cabrera while he was in the majors. The organization seems to be very suspicious of his potential for some reason, and I’ve never understood why.
Patterson has never hit well in the majors (which is a bit surprising given his excellent minor league numbers) and is a terrible, terrible defender. When he’s not hitting he’s the worst player in the lineup, and that’s saying a lot.
As far as Buck is concerned, look at his game logs. After sitting most of the first 2 weeks, Buck got about 2/3 of the starts from April 21st through May 25th — over a month. And he sucked. Now, maybe he needed more time to get back in the swing of things. But I don’t remember all of AN saying, “I know we have the worst offense in the AL, but it’s okay, let’s let the guys play it out a little more.”
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Jun 21, 2009 8:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, I do recall a lot of folks saying,
“Since we’re going nowhere this year, let’s watch Buck and Barton, not Hannahan and Giambi, and see what we have for 2010 and beyond.” I remember watching an entire infield that was guaranteed not to be part of any competitive A’s team ever and thinking, “I am watching, why?”
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jun 21, 2009 8:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I want Buck to play more now
because I’ve pretty much come to the point where I think Giambi is done, and Barton did manage to hit well for over a month at AAA (meaning he might have gotten “it” back) and he’s definitely better defensively than Giambi. So yeah, I agree on that one.
I also want Cabrera to get a day off (or two or three).
I remember everyone calling for Buck to play. And then he did. And he still sucked.
But wait, are you talking about before all the signings in the offseason? Yeah, I remember the debate over half-way rebuilding, etc. But I think that’s much more about the GM than the manager.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Jun 21, 2009 8:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Buck sucked. But how long of a chance did he really get
A week or two? Cunningham wasn’t used for very long. That’s my point. I’m not talking a few weeks. I’m talking a few months.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
by DMOAS on Jun 21, 2009 8:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, it was over a month
A week or two? Cunningham wasn’t used for very long. That’s my point.
And when upper administrators transfer an employee out of your office, do you blame your office’s manager for not assigning more work to that employee? The one who’s working in Sacramento, not Oakland?
I’m not talking a few weeks. I’m talking a few months.
Okay, that’s fine with me (I like Cunningham and would like him to play more in the majors, and I want Barton to get more ABs too at Giambi’s expense). But calling for that means not complaining much if the team gets even worse.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Jun 21, 2009 8:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry
But I see a lot of breaks in Buck’s playing time. Enough to wonder if he’s playing regularly or not. But that we may need to agree to disagree on. As for upper management decisions, well, I don’t completely put that one on Geren, that’s been an issue I’ve had with Beane. And if they gave these guys a chance, well yeah, if we’re going no where then I’m fine with finding out they suck and would deal with it.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
by DMOAS on Jun 21, 2009 9:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No I mean as Buck was performing poorly.
And right now, maybe the NL parks are to blame but I hate seeing Daric Barton sitting on the bench instead of playing 1B for the A’s or the Rivercats.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jun 21, 2009 8:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, I also want Barton starting a good deal at first at Giambi's expense
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Jun 21, 2009 8:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Especially with Doolittle and Carter on the horizon,
wouldn’t it be very useful to find out how good Barton is – whether to play for Oakland or someone else?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jun 21, 2009 9:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
Giambi is a foam peanut now. He’s just filler.
"If you don’t start concentrating and catching the ball, you’re going to have to deal with my black ass!"- Wash
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jun 22, 2009 9:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, there is a track record.
His name is Mariano Rivera.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on Jun 22, 2009 4:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Courageous post.
I look forward to your future posts on Dick Cheney, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Osama bin Laden, and the clown who sued the A’s about the Mother’s Day hat. All of whom are probably less unpopular here than Bob Geren.
Seriously, it’s a very solid post and of course you are right that Geren gets more abuse than he deserves. I don’t think there’s a manager of a losing team anywhere who isn’t passionately hated by a plurality if not an overwhelming majority of the fans – it just goes with the territory. Someone has to be To Blame.
A couple points, though. First, I don’t think Bailey’s history as a starter is especially relevant. 100 innings as a starter is nothing; 100 innings as a reliever is a hell of a workload. Apples and oranges.
Second (and this is not really against anything you say), this is not a science experiment. We’re not looking to see if it’s inning 92 or 101 or 112 where Bailey’s elbow finally snaps to bits. Once we definitively answer the question of how much is too much, we’ve already lost.
by Faust on Jun 21, 2009 8:36 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
My conclusion:
Geren is a better manager than he’s given credit for on AN, and Geren sucks as a manager.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jun 21, 2009 8:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This I agree 100% with
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
by DMOAS on Jun 21, 2009 8:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, me too...
We drag his ass down on a regular basis. I personally call him a bad-faced mouth breather on almost a daily basis…
That doesn’t mean he’s not a below-replacement level manager, because he is.
"If you don’t start concentrating and catching the ball, you’re going to have to deal with my black ass!"- Wash
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jun 22, 2009 9:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I kind of wonder how great the difference is
I don’t think it’s fair to say that comparing an inning as a reliever and an inning as a starter is like apples and oranges. Their both largely the same thing, it’s not like Bailey was throwing underhand when he was a starter, he was still pumping in mid 90’s fastballs and ripping off sliders. Now there is definitely a difference in preparation, rest, and likely intensity of pitches but I don’t know exactly how much.
100 innings as a starter is nothing; 100 innings as a reliever is a hell of a workload. Apples and oranges.
How do we know it’s such a huge workload? Just because relievers don’t usually throw that much? Has there been studies that say a pitchers arm can handle 200+ innings as a starter but 100+ as a reliever is just too much?
I don’t really have a definite answer to these questions but I think it could be at least worth thinking about.
That said, I would join the outcry if Bailey actually stayed at this pace and passed the 100 inning mark later in the season.
by DiegoAsFan on Jun 21, 2009 9:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, just look at what actually happens
The sturdiest starters pitch far in excess of 200 innings. The most durable relievers tend to max out in the 80s. Both groups are doing about as much as they can under their particular set of circumstances, and both groups (so far as I know) are more or less equally subject to injuries.
On a smaller scale, you would surely acknowledge that a starter who averaged 6 innings every 5 days wasn’t doing anything special, and in fact might be counted as being used rather conservatively. But a reliever who pitches one inning 4 times in 5 days is going to want to put his arm in a sling, even though he’s only putting in 2/3 as many innings. Pitcher workload is obviously dependent not only on absolute number of innings pitched but also on the number of appearances (and no doubt on other things as well; I’m simplifying). You kind of acknowledge this yourself when you say you don’t want Bailey exceeding 100 innings; you wouldn’t say that of any starter, no matter how young and fragile, would you? If you can’t get a lot better than that from your starters, you can’t complete a season.
While I don’t think his history as a starter means much, I do think a couple other points you raise – namely, that he has a clean health record and that he’s 25 (and thus physically mature) rather than 21 or 22 – are important in suggesting the capacity for a heavier workload.
by Faust on Jun 21, 2009 10:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wondering about heavy workload...
Mike Marshall didn’t believe in warmup pitches and rarely took them. He was a hardcore workhorse out of the pen of many teams in the ’70’s, often pitching well over 100 innings in a season, and once over 200.
I’m not saying that this should be any sort of paradigm, but Marshall wasn’t some sort of crazed masochist. He had an advanced degree in kinesiology and truly believed that warmup pitches hinder pitchers more than help them.
I wonder if Bailey and Wuertz (or anyone, really) could still be as effective with less extensive warmups, possibly even to the extent of not throwing any full-speed pitches until their first non-warmup game pitch…
"If you don’t start concentrating and catching the ball, you’re going to have to deal with my black ass!"- Wash
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jun 22, 2009 10:05 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Marshall developed his own pitching motion
The reason Marshall could throw over 200 IP in over 100 appearances in one season is that he didn’t throw a baseball like any other pitcher, at that time, or, from what I can tell, ever.
Marshall is a pariah in the world of baseball because he thinks nobody in organized baseball except him has a clue about how pitchers should train, warm up , or pitch. He might actually be right, but he acts like a jerk to them so they’ve decided to blow him off.
Here is Mike Marshall’s website, which includes 11 free Quicktime videos detailing his whole approach.
I’ve always wondered when a team would decide to give it a shot and turn their minor-league pitching instruction over to Marshall. Evidently he has an all-or-nothing approach to his views on pitching — he won’t come in an just work on rehabbing shoulders, he wants all the pitchers to follow his program A to Z. But what if the A’s had sent Harden to him? What if they sent Hunter or Ross to Marshall?
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Jun 22, 2009 10:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's a genius and his ideas are sound,
but people skills are important, and people who don’t need people are not exactly the luckiest people in the world.
"If you don’t start concentrating and catching the ball, you’re going to have to deal with my black ass!"- Wash
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jun 22, 2009 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm intrigued by Lincecum,
who doesn’t ice after pitching. Cases like that always make me wonder how much of the routine for managing pitcher’s arms is based on “but we’ve always done it this way.” I’d also mention Dice-K’s throw every day routine, but he happens to be on the DL at the moment.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jun 22, 2009 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've wondered
how much of Dice-K’s routine has been changed since he came to America? I remember all of the fanfare when he arrived and how what he did was radically different than what teams in the US do. Then, once he started pitching here, it seemed like his routine was the same as any other pitcher. I would be curios to see how much the Sox have made him change his program, and if any of those changes cause him to be more injury-prone now.
"Camelot sure fell apart, didn't it?"-Steve McCatty
by 5Aces on Jun 22, 2009 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A lot of this sounds like Terry Francona
I’ve heard / read him interviewed a lot, and I’ve never heard him throw a player under the bus. I HAVE heard him stand up for players, even to the point of making himself sound a bit ridiculous. And he’s had to do it a lot this year with epic slumps from Ortiz and Lugo, as well as other poor performers.
The difference is that Francona is known as someone who sticks up for you under the spotlight but really lets you have it behind closed doors if there’s a problem.
Sounds like a good style, and Geren has only 1/2 of it.
Do you know the way to San Jose?
by eastcoasta'sfan on Jun 21, 2009 9:01 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I prefer the Billy Martin style:
Scream at players and umpires publicly, play like you have a 15 man roster, emphasize the triple steal, and drive drunk off a cliff.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jun 21, 2009 9:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I loved it when it was happening
The hangover wasn’t that great, though. I’d like our starters to last a bit longer (in years, not innings) than Norris, Langford, Keough, McCatty, and Kingman.
by Faust on Jun 21, 2009 9:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I still thinking kicking dirt on the umpire was the most entertaining part
That and getting fired by the yankees multiple times.
Do you know the way to San Jose?
by eastcoasta'sfan on Jun 22, 2009 9:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe the most amazing part is how many times he got HIRED by the Yankees
The places where I’ve been fired several times won’t even return my calls.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jun 22, 2009 9:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah . . .
but that wasn’t as fun as the firing
Do you know the way to San Jose?
by eastcoasta'sfan on Jun 22, 2009 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Billy Martin is my homie...
For those of you out there who think a manager may add/subtract only one or two wins from a club’s total, I suggest you go back and look at some of these clubs:
1969 Twins, 1972 Tigers, 1974 Rangers, 1981 Athletics, 1983 Yankees
These teams played way better than the sum of their parts, and way better than their Pythagorean W/L.
"If you don’t start concentrating and catching the ball, you’re going to have to deal with my black ass!"- Wash
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jun 22, 2009 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
For all his deep flaws, Billy Martin was pretty amazing that way
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jun 22, 2009 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think managing matters at the extremes
Martin happened to be both extremes.
But the question isn’t, “Should the A’s dump Geren and replace him with a (still living) Billy Martin?” Or a zombie-Billy Martin, even. The question is, “Should the A’s dump Geren and replace him with whomever they find sitting around?”
I don’t think Geren is anything special, and might even be below average. And I’ve agreed with a number of the specific criticisms of his managing — leading off Cabrera, and not giving him days off; playing Suzuki too much; not putting Barton in the lineup.
But every manager does stuff like that. Whoever replaced Geren might bat Cabrera 9th, and give him days off, and start Barton half the time. But he might also bat Hannahan 2nd, or let Braden or Cahill throw 120 pitches in consecutive starts, or publicly call out Sweeney for being a loser.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Jun 22, 2009 11:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm okay with dumping Geren if they go outside the box with the hire...
but if they were just going to hire somebody from the available talent pool (Hershiser, Lansford, Hurdle, whomever gets fired among Acta, Wedge, and Girardi), then why bother?
This club needs a genius manager of high intelligence, high people skills, high baseball intelligence, and enough of a jock that he’s accepted by the players…
Where is the next Joe Maddon, or the next Terry Francona, or the next Bobby Cox?
If I could command somebody to take the job, Tony Gwynn would be my absolute first choice, but he’s not interested, so be it.
"If you don’t start concentrating and catching the ball, you’re going to have to deal with my black ass!"- Wash
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jun 22, 2009 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rene Lachmann?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jun 22, 2009 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
everyone i've talked to that has played there
says gwynn is not as good a coach as you would think. he wouldn’t be the best fit for a young team like the a’s.
"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball
by flipgatey3 on Jun 22, 2009 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And by "not a good fit,"
you mean he literally wouldn’t fit through the door to the manager’s office.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jun 22, 2009 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm kinda surprised to hear that...
not that Tony Gwynn’s fat, because that’s obvious,
but that a lot of the players aren’t thrilled with him…
That’s too bad. I was hoping he’d be the next Rod Dedeaux…
"If you don’t start concentrating and catching the ball, you’re going to have to deal with my black ass!"- Wash
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jun 22, 2009 4:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I tend to agree: Geren is not the worst manager in the world,
he’s just a bit below average, but I think that’s good reason to say “we can do better.”
I do suspect the A’s have passed on some better options – that is, guys who would at least be average – and that bugs me. Is Washington an “average or better” manager? Personally I suspect he is. Francona? I think so. Macha? Frankly, yes. Wakamatsu? I don’t know. Trey Hillman? I don’t know.
In that list of managers, plus Geren, where would Geren rank? Not first, for sure.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jun 22, 2009 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree on Wash
On Francona…he was basically Geren when he was in Philadelphia. Everyone thought he sucked, he was too easy on the players, the fans and the media wanted Bowa back (not because he’d been that successful, but because he yelled at the players a lot), they were delighted when Francona was fired…and angry that the Phillies didn’t hire Leyland (who’s tough! and ornery!) and thought that Manuel was a dumb hick who was too nice to the players…until last year, when he became a genius.
And Francona had already become a genius back in 2004 with the Red Sox.
Maybe folks who really want to replace Geren could talk more about who should be hired, how that person should be evaluated, and why he’d be a better manager than Geren.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Jun 22, 2009 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
For me, I guess I'd like a manager who
pushes his players to be the best they can be, and in my subjective, I can’t know more because I’m not privy to the information but this is my sense view, Geren lacks the ability to motivate players to work their hardest, and maintain full concentation at all times. I think this is seen in the sloppy bunting/baserunning/“how many balls in the count again?” play we’ve observed, as well as in players jogging out pop ups and hanging out in the dugout barely seeming to notice how their teammates are doing.
Now I’m not a big fan of the “yell and scream” types – motivation can occur through inspiration, quiet accountability, lots of different ways. But I favor managers whose actions and words say that expectations are high, and you are required to grind out every moment from the first pitch to the last. It’s the one part of the game players can control, and I do personally believe that attitude and spirit are contagious.
As for managers who could do this better than Geren? I thought Wash could, but he’s no longer available. I like Rene Lachmann. As for younger, maybe more “outside the box” options, I don’t know the individual personalities but the A’s do and if they knew what type of manager they wanted they could screen accordingly. And then there’s always Dallas Braden, Player/Manager, with Pepe as bench coach.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jun 22, 2009 4:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Braden could step into a 50 year old retired catcher's body,
he could totally manage this club better than Geren. Braden’s a sharp, observant dude, and baseball isn’t f’n rocket science.
The conventional wisdom is that everyone thinks they can manage a club, but if they really had the opportunity to step in and do it, they’d suck just as bad as the manager(s) they heckle. (note: I know that “they” is improper grammar, but I don’t like he/she, and “zie,” the nongendered pronoun, hasn’t caught on yet)
Nowadays, though, when fans can play thousands of hours of simulated baseball on video games, Sratomatic, etc, maybe the conventional wisdom doesn’t apply anymore. Maybe it’s time to find a motivational/management genius from outside of baseball, have him play a couple thousand games of Stratomatic, and turn him loose…
"If you don’t start concentrating and catching the ball, you’re going to have to deal with my black ass!"- Wash
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jun 22, 2009 4:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I want the team to play that way too
I do wonder, however, how consistently individual managers get teams to do that. The Mets got rid of Willie Randolph because of a lack of focus/passion etc, evidenced by the team’s collapse 2 years ago, crappy play in the first half last year, loss to the Cards in the NLCS a few years ago, and also because Randolph told the media last year that he’d be getting less flack from the media and fans if he were white and it turned into a big problem for the club, even though he apologized. So they replaced him with Jerry Manuel.
And virtually nothing has changed about the team. Maybe that’s because Manuel is also weak at the stuff Randolph was bad at. And guys like Francona and Charlie Manuel were criticized for a lot of this stuff here in Philly — Francona lost his job, then went to Boston and won 2 WSs. Did he get better after being fired? Could well be — hopefully he learned something from that experience. But maybe he was more or less the same and things just worked out better in Boston.
Maybe Lache would be a good pick. If he succeeded with the A’s, he’d be one of those Francona/Torre types, because he’s managed 3 full seasons in his career (winning 76, 67, and 64 games) and parts of about 6 other seasons. He’s never had a winning record, and his career winning percentage is .433. Now, he mostly managed the Mariners in the early 80s and the Marlins in the mid 90s, so he was pretty much set up to fail. Earl Weaver would have had losing records with those teams, if he’d managed to make it through a season without his head exploding. And it’s been a long time since he’s been a manager, so I’m sure he’s grown and learned and changed both as a person and as a manager. But still, it might be a little odd to say, “This team is a big disappointment, we’re bringing in a guy who’s managed nearly 1,000 major league games and has never had a winning record.”
If the A’s were looking for one of those 2nd-try-is-a-charm guys, I wonder if they should pick Randolph, who was on the list, IIRC, before the A’s hired Macha. I think he’d do much better away from the media insanity of NY, he’s available, I’m sure he’s motivated to redeem himself, and he probably wouldn’t cost much because people associate him with a couple of historic collapses.
2 notes, though. 1) Beane always seems to hire from withing the organization, or at least from a list of people he’s supervised in the past. So firing Geren probably involves getting someone like that; 2) If the price of firing Geren is a new manager who replaces Curt Young, I’d be very unhappy. I think pitching coaches actually do a lot of teaching, especially of young pitchers, and Young has gotten really good results for a lot of pitchers with lots of different styles. I’d absolutely hate to lose a really good pitching coach like him.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Jun 22, 2009 5:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, the trouble with trying to suggest
“Willie Randolph” or “Tye Waller” or “Bob Schaefer” or “Midland’s manager” is that I don’t actually know which of them has more of the qualities I might believe make for a better manager.
But that’s why you interview people, know their history, talk to people who know their style, and so on. If those 4 happened to be on the short list for the job, my recommendation would be, “Whichever one of them most has the qualities I’m talking about.” That doesn’t mean I could tell you which guy that would be.
For that matter, why does it have to be a guy? Cindi is totally available and if you want the best hair in the league, bar none…I’m just sayin’.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jun 22, 2009 5:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
DFA Nomah. Hire Mia.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Jun 22, 2009 5:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"best hair in the league"

Bradenfro accepts Cindi’s challenge.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
by iglew on Jun 23, 2009 12:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Um..................
OK. {be nice…be nice…be nice…}
-Cindi
P.S. OMIGOD THAT IS SO 1970S!!!!!!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jun 23, 2009 8:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My hair's a lot like that...
not as tight of a spiral, though, and stiffer, so when I comb it out, my hair globe has about an inch more in diameter than Braden’s did… You know, more of a Kielty than a Braden… except it’s mostly gray, and I’m barely in my thirties.
Is that sad or dignified?
"If you don’t start concentrating and catching the ball, you’re going to have to deal with my black ass!"- Wash
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jun 23, 2009 9:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Being in your 30s?
I’d say that’s mostly quite careless.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jun 23, 2009 9:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Geren-tology"
Good post. I agree that the bottom line is he’s been dealt some bad luck this year; that, coupled with his close friendship with BB, creates a forcefield around him that only open mutiny will conquer. It also makes it really hard to do an thorough evaluation of his performance. I hope he does better with better material and better luck next year.
by Brian in 317 on Jun 22, 2009 9:21 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Gerentology, huh?
Well he is definitely not a clear.
"If you don’t start concentrating and catching the ball, you’re going to have to deal with my black ass!"- Wash
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jun 22, 2009 10:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hope
is a village in Arkansas
Do you know the way to San Jose?
by eastcoasta'sfan on Jun 22, 2009 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Some final thoughts
I find it rather amusing that just four months ago, Geren held a favorable opinion on AN. Heck, our blogfather even wrote a front page post praising his tactical abilities.
A’s Geren Says All the Right Things
The title is very ironic if I do say so myself (considering all the grief this site gives him for the stuff he says in the papers). And judging by the comments, the majority pretty much agreed with this assessment.
So what changed in the span of four months. Did Geren suddenly lose half his brain and is managing far worse than he did the last two years? Or is he managing the same but we just need someone to scapegoat? How does a guy who says all the “right things” suddenly lose that ability in a span of four months?
So what is it, AN? Is Geren still Geren or did he transform into some sort of managing antichrist? Or maybe we’re just seeing what we want to see?
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jun 22, 2009 3:40 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
-1
I thought he was a foam peanut from the beginning, and advocated for Wash so hard that I quit the site in protest for a couple of months in utter disappointment.
"If you don’t start concentrating and catching the ball, you’re going to have to deal with my black ass!"- Wash
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jun 22, 2009 4:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And I was a HUGE proponent of signing Wash,
and a huge critic of letting him go, at the time.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jun 22, 2009 4:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well that's an easy one
My opinion of Bob Geren has absolutely shifted since the start of this season, when I have seen a lot I don’t like, including some examples of just flat out being schooled in the basics of Managing 101, and a team that has looked, despite the longest spring training in club history, totally unprepared in the basics of bunting, baserunning, and keeping your head in the game.
The only alternative to allowing opinions and observations to evolve is to be pigheadedly stubborn because you felt one way once. Plus, saying all the right things in the off-season, and doing the right things and/or properly preparing your team in the Spring, are not one and the same.
No question, as I have seen more and more of Geren, my opinion of his managing abilities has grown less and less favorable. So?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jun 22, 2009 4:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I missed that post at the time
But at no point would I ever have assented that Geren “says all the right things.” What he says has always been the thing that annoys me the most about him.
Bullpen usage? Hugely important topic, and I have my gripes, but there are some things he’s done that I approve of, and most other managers would also pull things I wouldn’t like, so this isn’t really a deal-breaker (until Andrew Bailey goes to see Dr. Andrews). In-game tactics? Too much poorly-executed smallball? Hell, Washington would have done even more annoying bunting than Geren (as he actually has done with Texas), one reason I wasn’t so disappointed when the A’s went with Geren instead (in retrospect, silly me).
No, I can’t really say that the primary reason I dislike Geren is demonstrably connected to team performance. The fact is, I have a profound, visceral loathing of the happytalk blather that is Geren’s specialty. It’s impossible for me to like him no matter what the objective measures of performance (although I could tolerate him if his team won the World Series).
A personal prejudice of mine is that a person who speaks in a relentless stream of banalities probably also thinks in banalities. That’s almost certainly doing something of an injustice to Geren, who sometimes almost reveals the glimmer of an actual thought. But I just can’t hack my way through the blathermorass that accumulates wherever he’s standing.
by Faust on Jun 22, 2009 6:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good managers and Pythagorean win totals
I thought it might be interesting to take a look at the A’s and Angels over the last five years. Here’s the results:
Scioscia
2004: +1
2005: +2
2006: +5
2007: +4
2008: +12
+2 again thus far this season.
A’s under Macha:
2004: +5
2005: -5
2006: +7
Under Geren:
2007: -3
2008: -1
-1 thus far this year.
Of course, you can’t attribute all of this to a manager, but it sure is interesting.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on Jun 22, 2009 4:59 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
That is interesting - even if statistical noise, it's interesting
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jun 22, 2009 5:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It might be partly noise
I just cruised through Billy Martin’s seasons for fun—he exceeded Pythagorean expectations in 7 of 10 seasons. I didn’t bother trying to figure out his impact on the many seasons in which he was either hired or fired mid-stream.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on Jun 22, 2009 5:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The effect of a good manager
Here’s the thing: shouldn’t a good manager do things to help the team score more runs and allow fewer? That could be picking the right players to play and putting them in a rational batting order; making sure the players are focused and not making stupid mistakes, on the bases, at bat, in the field; using the bullpen effectively and efficiently.
So if that’s the kind of thing a good manager does, then there shouldn’t be a big advantage over Pythagorean W-L, because the manager would improve the RS and RA numbers.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Jun 22, 2009 5:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I also believe a manager can impact a player reaching his potential, breaking out, etc. or not
Plenty of times you’ll see a player talk about how he blossomed under a given coach, and while sometimes that may just be their perception, or coincidental timing, I think it absolutely makes sense that when dealing with human beings, and the issue of leadership/coaching, sometimes a given leader can help a player blossom where others couldn’t. A lot of that has to do with communicating and connecting, mentoring, and so on. I think that’s real.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jun 22, 2009 5:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If this is true.
Then you should be giving Bob Geren heaps of praise for how well Braden, Outman, Bailey, Cahill, and Mazzaro have “blossomed” this year.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jun 22, 2009 5:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or Curt Young
Since he’s actually the one teaching them, not Geren.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on Jun 22, 2009 6:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Eh
I was just responding to this claim by Nico: “I also believe a manager can impact a player reaching his potential”
In which case if true, then the break outs of those four young pitchers should be attributed to Geren.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jun 22, 2009 6:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No. My statement does NOT suggest
that every time a player reaches his potential, the manager must be credited. It would be as foolish to automatically credit Geren with Braden’s success as it would be to blame Geren for Hannahan’s low batting average.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jun 22, 2009 6:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Alright. So what's your criteria then?
Which players have reached their potential under Geren? Which hasn’t? How do you determine whether or not they have or haven’t reached their potentials is because of Geren or other factors?
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jun 22, 2009 8:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I believe that Jose Canseco could impact a lot of players breaking out
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Jun 22, 2009 5:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And those kinds of things would also show up in better performances
which means more runs scored, fewer runs allowed.
The Pythagorean W-L has to do with run distribution, both offensively and defensively. A lot of the things we’re discussing here don’t seem relevant to that, with the possible exception of bullpen usage. And I know you’ve observed that the slegnA have often had an excellent top 3 in the bullpen, and a really bad 4 and 5 or 4-5-6 — meaning that teams can pile up runs on them once Scioscia goes to one of the bad relievers. If that’s been happening, it would skew RS-RA without changing W-L.
Run distribution could be affected by tactical stuff, I suppose. But again, that stuff should score you more runs, not change distributions.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Jun 22, 2009 5:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Didn't see your comment before posting the one below
You’re right it should impact the runs scored and allowed. It’s hard to come up with a good way to do that, though.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on Jun 22, 2009 6:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Partly
In game management has an impact on how the distribution of the runs affects wins and losses as well.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on Jun 22, 2009 6:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And often in ways seen well down the road and not easily measured
For example, how does wearing out a reliever in April affect his performances in June? How does ignoring pitch count in 2009 affect a pitcher’s injury in 2011? We often really don’t know; other times, Moose Haas comes back from arm problems and throws 155 pitches, and we have a sneaking suspicion it’s probably a bad idea.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jun 22, 2009 6:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Moose had really cared, though, he would have toed the line like his teammate Rick Langford
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Jun 22, 2009 6:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sadly, Moose studied at the Matt Holliday School of
not caring. :-(
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jun 22, 2009 6:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And sadly, Rick Langford studied at the Russ Springer School of
not being able to get anyone out.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Jun 22, 2009 6:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

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