You Really Wanna Pitch To Kurt Suzuki? Be My Guest
by Nico on Jun 20, 2009 10:32 PM PDT
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PrintThere were at least three true "crossroads moments" in tonight's game, which was both interesting and - in a delightful departure from recent wins and losses - well played by the A's.
The first "crossroads moment" came in the bottom of the 3rd with Brett Anderson cruising, leading 2-0 and having retired six in a row, when he hit Will Venable to leadoff and then served up his first hit to the opposing pitcher Walt Silva. A walk and two RBI singles later, Anderson found himself with the game tied 2-2, the bases still loaded and nobody out, Adrian Gonzalez at the plate. Anderson struck Gonzalez out looking and coaxed a 5-3 DP from Chase Headley, averting disaster.
The second moment came in the top of the 6th with the A's having tied the game 3-3 and still with the bases loaded and one out. Brett Anderson was due up and Bob Geren made a call I didn't agree with: He pulled Anderson in favor of a pinch hitter, going with Nomar Garciaparra. My objections started with the fact that the A's really needed to get more than 5 IP out of Anderson, who had thrown but 68 pitches. The A's long man, Edgar Gonzalez (not to be confused with Edgar Gonzalez), was not available with Josh Outman having lasted only 1.2 IP last night; Craig Breslow had pitched in 4 consecutive games; Wuertz had pitched yesterday despite having complained recently of a tired arm due to overuse; Ziegler has been much used this week, as has Bailey. This was not a night to yank a pitcher after 5 IP and 68 pitches. My objections continued with the fact that the A's were not punting the inning by batting Anderson; they were more punting the second out with Kennedy on deck.
How did it play out? Badly at first, with Nomar bouncing into a 6-4-3 DP, but well in the long run as the A's bullpen shut the Padres out for the final 4 innings. But to accomplish this, Wuertz pitched two innings - two outstanding innings with 4 Ks - and pitching on back to back days, stretched out to 2 IP the second day, can't be what Wuertz was getting at when he said he needed more rest. Ziegler pitched the 8th and Bailey the 9th - and Bailey has now worked 5 of the last 8 days.
Luckily, the third "crossroads moment" involved a puzzler of a decision by Bud Black in the top of the 7th. With the game tied 3-3, Kennedy at second at two out, Black ordered Cla Meredith (don't ask Y, Cla - you don't have one) to intentionally walk the .212 hitting Giambi to pitch to the A's best hitter in 2009, Kurt Suzuki. Suzuki singled to right-center to give the A's a 4-3 lead, Kennedy (his 4th hit of the night) and Cust (#13) went back-to-back in the 8th, and the A's had themselves a 6-3 win.
Maybe the A's figure they'll drain every ounce Wuertz has in his arm and send him away after 2009. Maybe Bailey's arm can take the amount of pitching asked of him right now. I just worry that as guys like Casilla waste away because Geren only has confidence in a select few, the toll will be felt long-term. But hey, the A's have 30 wins, and these days each win is its own little blessing.
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Hey we're only 7 games out and have better pitching
than quite a few teams. We are likely not a threat to win the AL West but paying attention to the standings make rooting for your team a lot more fun.
Let’s pull out the brooms and let Pepe do the rest!
These ain't your father's A's.
by ohtobe21likehuston on Jun 20, 2009 10:39 PM PDT reply actions
sometimes playing the spoiler is fun
I wouldn’t mind crushing the dreams of a few Slegna fans.
Your 2009 Oakland Athetics: This time, it's personal.
There is definitely improvement afoot
and it’s mostly about the starting pitching getting better and more consistent (this team still really can’t hit at all). After going 13-23 in the first 36 games, the A’s are now 17-14 in their last 31. That’s not great, but it’s a trend in the right direction.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Thanks - seemed like those three moments
were what defined this particular game. Personally, in looking at a given game I love the “interesting moments” as much, or more, than “the game as a whole.”
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Well written recap. Totally agree on overuse of Bailey
I really thought they could afford to let someone like Casilla pitch the 9th with the 3 run lead.
I am happy with the win but very worried that the bull-pen will be dead soon due to poor management (and the starters not pitching deep into games)
by Yellowhorse on Jun 20, 2009 11:20 PM PDT up reply actions
You know it's bad
when the play-by-play guys, who are paid to put a positive spin on things, get in on the act by calling him “Daily Bailey,” and are actively looking for a similar nickname for Wuertz on the air.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Everyday Eddie?
I like it better when he’s Every-Other-Day Eddie though.
"You end up with a name like ‘Outman,’" he said last week. "What else are you going to do? You’re going to get people out, man." ~ Dallas Braden
Keep it rolling boys!
I have front row tickets this Tuesday, and although it is against Lincecrumb, I’ll be there with my green on!
Green and Gold Lantern Corps
I know this is a dimwit question
but will someone please tell me why Ziggy didn’t go into the 9th?
I was listening while following the Rangers on muted tv, sewing on buttons, and drinking a cup of tea, so not totally paying attention.
The "sensible answer" would be that Ziggy pitched 2 innings yesterday,
and wasn’t able to go 2 IP again tonight, but by the reasoning of “don’t overwork your relievers” Wuertz couldn’t pitch 2 IP tonight – and he did. So then the answer has to be, “Bailey pitches the 9th in save situations even if we have to jeapordize his career to follow this arbitrary rule.”
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Or put another way
Bob Geren subscribes to the Joe Torre school of bullpen management. Anybody remember Scott Proctor?
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
SO PISSED...Giambi threw me a ball and I dropped it
SHIT! – I just had shoulder surgery 2 months ago and at the end of the 5th Giambi threw a ball to me (slightly high) and to jump up and it went off my hand…..SO PISSED…I know how Jack Cust feels in the field….but BOY that was a shot he hit.
You drop balls and have surgery?
OK, fess up – which player is this?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Chavez...
Actually I’m only 30 and had a back surgery 3 years ago and just had a labrum repair R shoulder….I feel like Chavy…just 66 + million poorer…
Still…I can’t believe I dropped the ball.
Giambi…I’ll be there Sunday…throw me another one…this time at my balls…I’ll catch it
We had great luck
My boys got to meet OCab and Giambi outside of Petco before tonight’s game. We got pictures and autographs. Inside the stadium, they got autographs from Adam Kennedy and Andrew Bailey as well as balls from A’s batting practice. That, along with a great A’s win, made for a wonderful time!
Great win.
Great fight about to start there.
I think [the A's announcers] just speak in code.. "A tough outing again for Brett Anderson" means "Has anyone checked with his 2nd grade teacher to see if maybe he’s actually right-handed?" --Nico
Boy could this team use a healthy Duchscherer!!
Seriously, his injury has been brutal for this team. If he can pitch some this year it will be a great help to this team.
Did he become a power hitting third baseman?
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
No, but he might be able to help keep Bailey's arm from falling off.
But probably not. Geren doesn’t like Bailey much.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
So, about the pitcher abuse
From what I can tell, the only reliever who is on pace for an inordinate amount of innings is Bailey and boy he is getting up there. After his appearance tonight he is on pace to throw almost 103 innings this year which would blow by the 95.1 innings that J.P. Howell through last season as the most used reliever in MLB. This is a bit scary for our new stud closer but there are some mitigating factors to consider.
Bailey was converted to relieving last season, so even though 103 innings is somewhat insane for a reliever it would represent a career low for Bailey as he through 110 IP last year as a starter/reliever and about 130 IP in his first full pro season when he was a starter the whole year. There is definitely a difference between the intensity of pitching an inning at a time as a reliever and a starter workload, and the rest period is different, but how much these differences affect a pitcher is not really known. Bailey has put this many innings on his arm and has done it recently.
The second factor is that I seriously doubt he will continue on the pace he is right now. He leads the team in IP per appearance for a reliever, now that he is the closer I think we will see less multiple inning appearances (I hope). Also, the A’s have played a lot of close games recently but judging by the team record and play of the offense I don’t think there will be a ton of save opportunities the rest of the season which should lighten Bailey’s load.
It will be important to moniter Bailey over the rest of his rookie season and there are reasons for concern, but I’m not ready to declare this a total disaster yet.
The YES network commentators were discussing a conversation they had with the Yankees'
pitching coach concerning Phil Hughes’ move to the bullpen in order for Wang to move into the rotation. They said Hughes could stay stretched out enough to start for two weeks, after that he’d have to go through an intensive programme to bring his arm back to the required strength to move back into the rotation.
Bailey has been in the pen all year so his arm isn’t stretched out anymore. He’s also being used pretty much ever night. He’s almost certainly going to break down.
I don't know how applicable that is
I mean a bullpen coach saying after two weeks of being a reliever a pitcher can no longer start doesn’t really have anything to do with Bailey’s situtation. No one is asking Bailey to start anymore he is being used strictly as a reliever. Whether Bailey is “stretched out” is pretty inconsequential because he is not being asked to pitch more than 2 innings.
The thing we have to worry about is how much stress a reliever inning puts on a pitchers arm as compared to a starter inning. If you take a pitcher who is used to throwing 100+ innings every year as a starter and ask him to throw around 100 as a reliever is the different type of workload going to necessarily break him down? I don’t know the answer to this but I doubt it’s as cut and dried as everyone around here assumes it is.
It's very relevant.
He’s often been asked to go 40 pitches one night and then 30 the next. Geren is treating him as a starting pitcher who has recently gone to the pen, rather than a starting pitcher who hasn’t been stretched out for months.
5 out of 8 days, many of the outings stretching him to 4-5 outs
and 30-40 pitches, from a guy who throws mid-90s, is an issue.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Define "often"
Bailey has thrown 40 or more pitches all of one time this season and has topped 30 on 4 other occaisions. These 5 outings all occured prior to the end of May which is about when he was awarded the closer role. The most pitches he’s thrown on a day prior to an appearance is 28 and his highest 2-day pitch count is 48.
We needed a fun series.
Glad to see so many A’s fans at Petco to see it. Almost as many fans there as we get at the Coli (jk).
It's funny 'cuz it's true!
sigh
Green and Gold Lantern Corps
by oaklandSMASH on Jun 21, 2009 12:03 AM PDT up reply actions
and even when the padres were rallying
you could hear “oakland” mixed in with the “let’s go padres”
awesome
holdin' it down for the bay from upper westside manhattan
umm, no
padres have Yankees-type of issue with ballpark attendance – tix are too pricey for the product delivered, so local fans are staying away. it’s been all over the UT (local paper).
by rollierollieOxenfree on Jun 21, 2009 10:17 AM PDT up reply actions
nice wrapup, especially since I couldn't stay awake past the 7th
I’m not sure I would call taking Anderson out in the fifth turned out well even though Wuertz pitched well, since I am concerned that it will have a negative effect on Wuertz.
Nice to see the A’s are winning games against a weak opponent…
minor quibble: all of the players named Gonzalez have only one “a” in their last name…
Thank God For the Padres
The Padres are so bad that they make the A’s look good. That’s no small feat. I’m starting to become a fan of interleague play for the first time ever.
Now if Cabrera and Giambi can find the fountain of youth, Duchscherer can pitch starting in August, Holliday figures out a way to hit now that he no longer plays in Denver, Kennedy keeps playing way over his head and Geren is fired and replaced with just about anybody, the A’s will be in the hunt come September. Hope springs eternal!
I generally agree on the overuse of the bullpen, especially Bailey
On the other hand, the only starter who should throw 200 innings this year is Braden. And unless Anderson goes on the DL, or gets sent to the minors, Geren needs to monitor and limit his innings, too.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
One thing that is a factor here
is the A’s usual unwillingness to carry a true long reliever. Right now they have Edgar and they had Gallagher in that role briefly, but usually they have 7 guys, not one of whom expects to go more than 2 innings. That makes it a real strain on the pen when the starter has to leave early, or where you have to go extra innings having already used several relievers to get through 9. Having Edgar available when Outman went out early made a big difference on Friday; I don’t understand how the A’s don’t make that part of their standard roster construction. Every time extra innings looms, with the pen often pushing its limits just to finish 9, I find myself wondering what on earth they’re going to do if the game turns into a marathon.
According to Slusser's wrapup
(Link)
“Anderson has had a bit of a dead arm recently, so Geren didn’t mind getting him out a little early.”OK, fair enough. But the massive reliance on a few trusted relief pitchers is still a problem. Let’s take a quick look at Russ Springer’s season, just as one example.
Coming off two outstanding seasons in St. Louis, Springer was terrific early on. As a “reward for excellence,” Geren pitched him in 20 of the A’s first 37 games, including 3 days in a row at one point and 4 days out of 5 another. That would be a brutal workload for any reliever, but the man’s 40 years old, for crying out loud! After the conclusion of the 4-days-out-of-5 stretch (which he had concluded by giving up a run in each of the last 3 of those appearances), Springer fell apart completely, and he gave up 8 runs in just 2 innings in his next 3 appearances.
Having pitched like crap for a while, Geren stopped trusting him and he got to rest up on the bench. The good news is that he doesn’t appear to have suffered any lasting damage. Having given his arm a break, his June numbers are just fine: 6G, 5 IP, O R, 1 BB, 7 K. The bad news is Geren seems to trust him again (he pitched 3 days in a row before last night, after just 3 appearances in the previous 17 days), so his arm might be headed back to the shredder.
They need some kind of team rule
Unless a game goes into extra innings no relief pitcher gets into the game three consecutive days, ever.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
I agree with you 97%
but if another Mike Marshall or Hoyt Wilhelm comes along, let ’em pitch 110 games!
"If you don’t start concentrating and catching the ball, you’re going to have to deal with my black ass!"- Wash
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jun 21, 2009 11:06 AM PDT up reply actions
Seems really odd that a catcher has trouble understanding
how to handle a bullpen. He’s not particularly strong in any areas as a manager and here are his weaknesses IMO.
1. Overuses the bullpen guys
2. Pulls his starters way too early and doesn’t allow them to build confidence
3. Hasn’t established a set methodology for using the bullpen (7th, 8th & 9th roles) so the guys probably don’t understand their roles
4. The order of his lineup is baffling especially with Cabrera batting leadoff which took away AB’s from less mediocre players. I wonder how many games we would have scored first in with Kennedy leading off?
5. Guys like Buck (who I think belongs in AAA), RIP Murton and Cunningham are up with the big club but only play sparingly which never allows them to get in a rhythm. Pitchers are called up, not used and then sent back to Sactown. I bet they wonder “how would the A’s organization know if I’m ready for the big leagues if they never allow me to pitch?”
6. Geren goes for it way too early in the game as if he has several incredible setup men and a closer. He tries to win the game in the 5th and 6th but doesn’t have a solid plan for how to hold on or win the 7th & 8th. I’ll give us the win when we are ahead and Mr. Closer- Andrew Bailey enters the 9th!
7. Kind of along the same lines as #6 but he goes for it too early offensively too. Nomar pinch-hitting last night was a bad idea for several reasons and I preferred the days of having your “Olmedo Saenz” or “John Mabry” come off the bench in a tense moment that only the 8th or 9th can bring.
8. He has to get guys like Suzuki a day off as a consideration to the long-term. Suzuki should have a day off at least every 10 days. He is “breaking down” our catcher of the future during a time that the team is not even very good.
9. He never calls out anyone for poor play but does get in a pissing match with Wuertz over “overusing” him.
10. I’m tired of complaining about him. I don’t like Geren at all and hope that he resigns before BB has to fire him.
These ain't your father's A's.
by ohtobe21likehuston on Jun 21, 2009 8:44 AM PDT up reply actions
Not only a catcher, but he was the fucking bullpen coach when Macha was here.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
Boy, I can't disagree with any of those
His 8th inning strategy appears to be to let someone besides Bailey start the inning and then go to Bailey at the first sign of trouble. This means that unless the other reliever has a 1-2-3 inning, it’s 4 or 5 out save time for Bailey – again.
Pinch hitting a gimpy Nomar in the 6th inning, against a sinkerballing RHP in a DP situation, at the expense of pulling your pitcher after 5 IP the day after your starter went 1.2 IP? Not wise.
The fortunes in top of the 6th inning should have been left up to Kennedy, the bottom of the 6th should have belonged to Anderson, and Casilla, not Wuertz (who is headed for a Springeresque overuse freefall, if not the DL), should have gotten the call if Anderson couldn’t make it through 7.
Nomar is held for a chance to hit for Sweeney or Hannahan later when the LHP (Thatcher) is summoned and you don’t act like Anderson/Nomar’s AB is the defining moment in the game. It isn’t.
Not when you’re already into the Padres’ bullpen, and you are facing the poorest offense in the NL. You can outscore them in innings 7-9 if you leave Anderson in and save your pinch hitter for a spot to which he is better suited.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Basically they won in spite of Geren's moves last night, not because of them.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
And partly thanks to Black's moves
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Some replies, partly just as devil's advocate
1. Overuses the bullpen guys
2. Pulls his starters way too early and doesn’t allow them to build confidence
This is basically the same point in two parts. Here’s the problem: the entire starting rotation is made of rookies, except for Braden. Here’s our rotation, with their career highs in IP, and the level at which they threw those innings
Braden: 140/A-AA
Cahill: 124/A-AA
Outman: 159/A-AA
Mazarro: 171/AA-AAA
Anderson: 120/A
So that’s a total of about 600 IP by our current rotation in their highest years. Not a single one of them has thrown even 100 innings at AAA in his career, much less in the majors.
So unless the AL allows the A’s to play 7-inning games, something has to give. Your choices are:
1) Do what Geren’s been doing — limiting the rookie starters’ innings and having relievers throw the innings;
2) Keep the starters in the game for longer, thus asking each one, with the possible exception of Mazzaro) to set a career high in IP as a professional in the major leagues, in a couple cases by a factor of 50% or so.
I just think that Geren’s in a no-win situation here. If the rookies were throwing more inning, sparing the bullpen, AN would be screaming about how he’s going to ruin the arms of the best young starting rotation in baseball, the team’s mealticket for years to come. If he limits their innings, people complain about burning out the bullpen. Bailey, incidentally, is the only member of the bullpen who’s vital to the A’s future. Ziggy is potentially pretty valuable. But to be brutally honest, if the A’s have to choose between protecting Wuertz/Springer or any of the starters, Wuertz and Springer are pitching when they’re tired.
So, I’d ask you: do you want the A’s starters to throw lots more innings? Do you want to send a couple of them down and replace them with Gio or someone who’s not good enough to pitch in the majors? If you bring up someone who’s not going to pitch well, what happens to the bullpen then?
3. Hasn’t established a set methodology for using the bullpen (7th, 8th & 9th roles) so the guys probably don’t understand their roles
Well, he’s had to deal with tons of injuries/illnesses (Devine, Ziggy, Casilla) and had to adapt roles on the fly (like making Bailey the closer). It’s hard to have fixed roles in that kind of environment.
4. The order of his lineup is baffling especially with Cabrera batting leadoff which took away AB’s from less mediocre players. I wonder how many games we would have scored first in with Kennedy leading off?
I agree, Cabrera shouldn’t lead off. But given how bad the whole lineup has been, the order isn’t that high on the list of problems.
5. Guys like Buck (who I think belongs in AAA), RIP Murton and Cunningham are up with the big club but only play sparingly which never allows them to get in a rhythm. Pitchers are called up, not used and then sent back to Sactown. I bet they wonder "how would the A’s organization know if I’m ready for the big leagues if they never allow me to pitch?"
After starting the year on the bench, Buck started about 2/3 of the games for nearly a month. And sucked. I think he got a decent chance. Cunningham started when he came up after Sweeney was hurt, and also hit badly. I happen to like Cunningham, and wish he’d hit better, but he did get ABs. Denorfia came up and sat, but he’s not a prospect. As far as the pitchers are concerned, Beane and Forst decide who gets called up when, not Geren.
6. Geren goes for it way too early in the game as if he has several incredible setup men and a closer. He tries to win the game in the 5th and 6th but doesn’t have a solid plan for how to hold on or win the 7th & 8th. I’ll give us the win when we are ahead and Mr. Closer- Andrew Bailey enters the 9th!
See #1 and #2 above.
7. Kind of along the same lines as #6 but he goes for it too early offensively too. Nomar pinch-hitting last night was a bad idea for several reasons and I preferred the days of having your "Olmedo Saenz" or "John Mabry" come off the bench in a tense moment that only the 8th or 9th can bring.
He’s managing the worst offense in the AL. The A’s don’t get enough bases-loaded chances for him to say, “Well, my awesome lineup of run-producers will probably have lots of RISP over the last 3 innings of the game. We’ll get ’em next time.”
8. He has to get guys like Suzuki a day off as a consideration to the long-term. Suzuki should have a day off at least every 10 days. He is "breaking down" our catcher of the future during a time that the team is not even very good.
I agree. I’d like Zook to get more, and more regular, days off.
9. He never calls out anyone for poor play but does get in a pissing match with Wuertz over "overusing" him.
You have no idea what he says to the players behind closed doors. Neither do I.
10. I’m tired of complaining about him.
Then stop.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
I think one problem that causes the dilemma
of overworking young starters vs. overtaxing bullpen is that the A’s really need not one but two relievers who can serve a “long men” when needed. If you had Edgar and Gio in the pen, just as an example (Gallagher, Outman, Giese also fitting the description at times this year), you could more freely go to one of them for a 3-4 inning stint knowing you still had the other available the next day if needed.
Geren has done a lot of giving the same 3-4 guys an inning each for days in a row, but this could be mitigated if sometimes instead he used one guy for 3-4 innings while his “high leverage short relievers” all got a day off. Given how Casilla has been Yabued the last two weeks, he may as well have been replaced on the roster by a reliever who can go 3-4 innings.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I like the idea of having both Edgar and Gio as multiple-inning eaters
Not sure how to make it happen, though. Casilla’s out of options so you’d have to pass him through waivers. I’m sure he’d be claimed, so really you’d just be getting rid of him for nothing. I’m not ready to do that yet. He’s got a good arm and he’s under the A’s control for 3 years after this one; I think that’s too good an asset to just toss aside. You have to try to work through it a bit longer and see if he can rehabilitate his value.
The other guys are pitching well and/or have better long-term value than Casilla. And an 8-man pen would be silly; we already have to watch people like Hannahan and Davis bat in crucial situations because the bench is so thin. We’ll see; if Outman can’t go for a while they’ll have to figure out something.
by Faust on Jun 21, 2009 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'd rather not have Gio in the pen.
He’s either a starter in the majors or a starter in Sac-town. No need to waste him as a long relief man.
Excellent post
Which I hadn’t read yet when I made my own response below.
I won’t take the time to respond to all of it, but I do want to point out that the A’s have control of Wuertz through 2011. He’s pretty darn good when handled right, and without the chance to earn saves he isn’t going to break the bank in arbitration. He’s not Bailey, but I think you may underrate him as an asset going forward.
Love your post, Nick.
I like the debate.
These ain't your father's A's.
by ohtobe21likehuston on Jun 21, 2009 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions
I'll disagree with some parts of that
I’m not sure I agree he pulls starters too early. Just as often I think he leaves them in too long – you know, bringing the reliever in after the bases-clearing double rather than before, when the starter had showed signs of losing it. Our young starters (except for Braden, who is past the “injury nexus” and proven durable) need to have their workloads carefully limited so they don’t wind up having their careers Martinized or Bakerized into oblivion. They get plenty of opportunities to work their way out of jams in the early innings; I don’t see how it builds confidence letting them lose the game by giving up runs when they’re tired.
And I’ve never cared much for having a “set methodology for using the bullpen.” I like the fact that Geren has resisting naming a closer; why hem yourself in? Here’s a situation you see all the time: closer is going through a stretch where he’s getting hammered, but it’s a Big Deal when you demote your closer so the team avoids doing it. Ninth inning rolls around, save situation, and in trots the closer even though everybody in the ballpark knows he’s not actually the guy to give them the best chance to win this particular game. It’s silly, but it’s inevitable when Closer becomes some sort of inviolable role. I’d rather do it the old-fashioned way of deciding who’s rested, what the matchups are, who’s pitching well lately. You can still give guys an idea of what to expect doing that, and in any case a guy who can only be useful being used in some highly specific role that he knows in advance is a guy who’s just too damn delicate to be in my bullpen. I think that’s mostly just a cop-out for bad performance anyway.
I also like the willingness to go more than one inning with a pitcher, even a closer. I haven’t seen research on this, but I’d be stunned if pitching a second inning in the same game wasn’t a good deal less taxing than pitching an inning in two successive games. Let the average appearance stretch out a bit, you should get more capacity from your bullpen overall. However, the rather obvious condition for employing this approach is that you need to reduce the overall number of appearances, not give them the same number as if they were only pitching an inning or less each time out. I don’t see that happening here… The Joe Torre/Scott Proctor example jeepers mentions is frightening.
Pitching through sticky situations is part of the maturation process
I don’t agree that Anderson was “done” last night after 68 pitches. He could have been but I want to give him an opportunity to fail or succeed. Maybe Geren wanted to pinch-hit for him only because of the offensive opportunity? I don’t agree but I would rather know that he did it based on trying to score runs vs. not wanting Anderson to continue.
I think you’ve made some good points and your bullpen use philosophy simply differs from mine.
These ain't your father's A's.
by ohtobe21likehuston on Jun 21, 2009 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions
Geren also said Anderson was going through a bit of a "dead arm" period
Which is a factor that could quite legitimately “tilt” a decision like this one.
By the way, I’m not saying Anderson was done last night; at 68 pitches I doubt it (and I missed the game so I have no personal sense of it). I was responding to the more general point about starters coming out too early.
For the record, I agreed with a number of your points – but what would be the fun of talking about those? “Check,” “roger that,” “good point” – not much of a contribution to a debate. ;-)
Realistically, a catcher should have at least one day off every week
Among the rest, that I mostly agree with.
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pulling Anderson was the right thing to do
Sure, Anderson had 68 pitches or so under his belt, but did you see his k/bb ratio? it wasn’t pretty. Also, the reason NOT to use Casilla in this ballpark is that he’s a fb pitcher, and this is a park that anything but where a fb pitcher should be pitching in.
Padres – this is the team that has Grady Fuson and Paul DePodesta within it’s front office ranks, in case anyone was wondering. These are your non-BB “heroes” from the A’s moneyball era.
So, anyone notice that Chase Headley started at 3rd over Kouzmanoff? Does this team have a surplus of 3B to trade?
by rollierollieOxenfree on Jun 21, 2009 10:29 AM PDT up reply actions
Why would using Casilla, or overworking Wuertz (the only two options)
have been better than using Anderson and his poor k/bb ratio for 1-2 more innings? You realize that in the 3 days since he complained of arm fatigue, Wuertz has had a day off, pitched 1 inning, and pitched 2 innings?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Geren can't win. If he uses Bailey and Weurtz, he is overusing them, if he goes
to Casilla, or Ziggy, and they blow it, he shoud have went with another option. The starters aren’t going deep enough for him to save his best relievers. Win or lose, the manager is doing everything wrong. .
The starters aren't going deep enough because they're being yanked after 68 pitches
He didn’t need to pinch hit for Anderson; he elected to, stupidly, IMO (as I said at the time, before Nomar even batted).
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Pinch hitting for the pitcher with the bases loaded and 1 out in a tie game in the 6th inning
is a very easy call. The bullpen being tired is a problem, but from the standpoint of winning that game it’s not even a remotely close decision.
With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery
Except you still get Adam Kennedy with the bases loaded and 2 out after Anderson looks at 3 strikes.
Who happened to single to lead off the next inning, BTW.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
C'mon, mikeA - of all people, you're one of the folks who keeps folks like me in line
by reminding us that a run saved is as valuable as a run scored. Pinch hitting for Anderson trades him in the 6th and 7th for either:
2 innings of Casilla
1 inning of Casilla and 1 inning of Wuertz
2 innings of Wuertz
The first seems to me to be a lot worse for “runs prevented” than hitting for Anderson helps “runs scored,” given that the inning is not entirely punted if Anderson Ks nor is it a guaranteed success if Nomar pinch hits.
The second gives up something while pitching Wuertz back-to-back days when his arm is dead.
The third should even not have been an option – Geren just did it anyway.
Letting Anderson hit gives you the small chance he gets a run home (which includes a walk, HBP, wild pitch, fly ball, slow chopper), followed by the 35% chance Kennedy doesn’t make an out. And if you don’t score, you have Anderson vs. the Padres bullpen going forward, with Nomar still available and Wuertz not physically abused.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
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