That Was Then... This is Now-- is the real problem the GM??
Somebody had better start noticing that maybe the emperor has no clothes. He was brilliant... and the team prospered, despite the postseason failures, for the better part of a decade. But time has a way of changing things-- people wear out their welcomes-- change is necessary-- even the best leaders/managers are no longer what they once were.
When the brains of an organization trades three players, including a top prospect, for a supposed superstar who in 4 weeks time has shown none of that talent and exhibited very little enthusiasm for being here; when that same leader installs his best man in what is essentially a nepotism move as the field manager (and we once thought it was funny how Howe was ordered to stand up straight in the dugout); when that same chief weakens the fan base with a dizzying array of moves that are billed as making the team better/more market efficient/younger/a winner in the future-- but all that happens on the field is disappointment, injury and more disappointment; when that same manager wins his reputation for eschewing big long term contracts, particularly for veterans but then blows nearly every one he can get his hands on (Dye, loaiza, Kendall, Kotsay, Ellis, Chavez, etc, etc...)
well one must start to wonder if the time has come to really shake up the ship. It's listing..sinking.. sailing off course-- you fill in the right metaphor. And it's all on one man's shoulders right now-- Billy Beane. Of course not every move he's been making has been wrong-- but enough have to make us doubt like we've never doubted before. But he's an owner of the team-- he has to fire himself. What a mess... what a mess.
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Huh
This club is close to competing. This series could have easily been a sweep. And actually it was Geren who fucked it. You and many here seem to have some small sample psychosis. That is, you seem to be forgetting that the A’s are but 1/8th into this long season. And month long slumps come and go.
"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagine such events unfolding!" Bill King
is this windyfelix by any chance? and that long line of usernames that writes posts like this over and over?
login and join dates look awfully suspicious
Save Rajai Davis
I am not that person
What I am is just unbelievably frustrated. Geren sort of takes the cake, don’t you think? This team is simply infuriating. That’s what i was trying to get across, and at some point shouldn’t Beane be taken to task? Who is Holliday anyway? I was excited about him but now it seems the naysayers were right.
This impatience with Holliday's performance on this site is beginning to annoy me.
Take a step back.
The guy has had 95 plate appearances so far. If he remains healthy and plays the entire season, he’s only about 1/7 of the way done. Yes, he has performed quite poorly, but stretches like this aren’t unheard of. He’s getting ridiculously unlucky on balls in play, as his BABIP is sitting at .284 compared to his career average of .354 (though he is hitting far less line drives than he typically does). It is a bit disturbing that his walk rate has plummeted, but as I said, it’s only 1/7 of the season.
I’m a bit more concerned with Giambi’s imitation of Tony Pena Jr. than Holliday at the moment.
Slow and old
I have no way of measuring bat speed but I’d be willing to bet Jason has lot a bunch on his. Holliday is a fine ballplayer who will provide lots of excitment right up until we trade him at the dealine for somebody slightly less talented than CarGon was. And Bob Geren is simply the most uninspiring manager I have ever seen – yes, including Macha or Howe. I would like to see him gone.
Baja been here
Thanks for posting this. I’m glad that someone put up a post that opens up discussion between us A’s fan.
I’m just as frustrated as you are. His appointment of his best man to lead this team is a joke. I personally do not want a “serviceable” manager, not when this person is supposed to make critical decisions every day of the season. I don’t mind having a serviceable utility player or even a servicieable 5th pitcher like Outman, but we should not be content with a manager who is averrage, and may only be clinging onto this position because of friendly ties to the GM. Makes you wonder if our head athletic trainer is one of Billy’s groomsmen…
I was not a big fan of the Tim Hudson trade, and hate the Harden trade to this day. These were a couple of major blunders under Beane, and this Holliday one may develop into yet another one. When he shipped off Swish and Haren and tried to convince us that it’s time to rebuild, I was able to live with that. I loved those guys and as much as it hurt to see them go, I believed that a painful 2-3 years of baseball in exchange for a bright 6+ years was ultimately reasonable. Then what confused me was how he then ships off CarGo, Greg Smith for Holliday, spends money to bring in an old performance-enhancer free-Giambi, O-Dawg and says that he intends to compete this season. I would’ve preferred to see him stick with the rebuilding plan on his own terms, developed a strong core with the young players and then come back strong in 2011 or 2012. Now, he may be forced to announce another rebuilding year as a result of some questionable decisions. He needs to stick to his guns, be patient and let his young talent progress, and even wipe the slate clean with players like Chavez, Giambi. I just hope that he doesn’t go Al Davis on us in a few years.
I agree with the sentiment
Not to sound completely impulsive after a tough loss, but Beane needs to take responsibility for the team’s failures the last 2+ years. He seems to build the team so that it has a ready-made excuse after a losing season. 2007 was injuries, 2008 was rebuilding, and appears to be a combination of the two. Though he makes admirable and gutsy trades, most aquisitions have built-in disclaimers. For instance, Giambi is cheap, so therefore if he doesn’t succeed that doesn’t make it a bad move. The fact that so many were excited about a 38 year-old, lead-footed, now Yankee stadium dependent first-baseman speaks volumes about Beane’s recent tendencies. If Holliday doesn’t work out, so be it. If Anderson and Cahill don’t become good major league pitchers, you can hardly blame Beane, but he has no right to complain about injuries after signing Nomar and Giambi.
Well what do you expect Beane to do, sign Teixeira?
Don’t forget that Beane can only maneuver within the boundaries of his financial constraints. Giambi, Cabrera, and Garciaparra are players that were all affordable and still capable of being marginally productive. Obviously, the reason why they are affordable is because they come with caveats. They are old, declining, and/or oft injured (in Cabrera’s case his free agent classification).
And the Holliday trade doesn’t come with a built-in “disclaimer”. He traded 3 useful players, one of whom can become extremely good (as he is demonstrating so far this year).
Nate,
you’re too quick to count out Giambi.
Last year in April, Giambi hit .164 with a .726 OPS.
I understand your worry, but I’ve seen Giambi foul off a lot of pitches straight back recently, which typically means a player’s timing is almost right on. I fully expect Giambi to pick it up very soon, and I at least don’t think we should count him out yet.
"Life is a horizontal fall" -Jean Cocteau
by King Richard on May 3, 2009 11:45 PM PDT up reply actions
I see it the same way KIng Richard
G does not worry me…..Holliday is definitely in a big slump but he should come around….(sigh) Chavvy will probably never play another full season in his career, possibly finished, Ellis has yet another freak injury, Nomar probably is good for half a season at best………..Duke would be lucky to start 20 games at this point, Casilla is capable of dominating but fragile……..and I almost forgot…….Geren blows. Is Billy on the DL, too?
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
G worries me a lot more than Holliday.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
If he gets enough rest from 1st base and DH's a little more
he’ll be fine.
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
I hope so
but I’m worried that his age has caught up to him finally.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
2+ years isn't exactly an eternity when it comes to a playoff drought,
and I haven’t read anything about Beane not taking responsibility.
"True fact: In a global thermonuclear war, the only human who would survive would be David Eckstein" -PT
I think the truth is that
Beane gambled that this team could be competitive in 2009 with a strong bullpen (that I believe is still strong if the end of the pen wasn’t all broken right now) and some young studs who he thought might be ready. He might still prove to be right on that front.
He added some veterans on offense to see if he could provide enough offense. He got them on the cheap because of their injury history, but that’s why he added so many. He was hoping to have enough depth.
The truth is that he was hoping that all this would come together, but if you read the interview I had with him during spring training he was unsure if it was going to happen. So far it hasn’t. But the A’s could’ve easily taken all three games this past weekend and might have done so if the bullpen had fully be in tact.
by Tyler Bleszinski on May 3, 2009 10:06 PM PDT reply actions
Enough will all the Fire Beane/Geren/Macha (well) BS
Look, the team is hurting right now.
Ellis’ was a completely unforeseeable injury. Everybody knew Nomar was fragile—but he wasn’t supposed to be playing everyday, he was supposed to spell Giambi at 1B against LHP and the occasional start at 3B. As it is, Chavvy has been hurting and Nomar had to play a lot more than anticipated, and now he’s injured, too.
Chavez contract wasn’t necessarily a bad contract. A lot of A’s fans bitch about never being able to keep players. Beane always trades them away and trades away the players he gets in return. Well he kept Chavez and he’s crucified for it. Any long term contract is a risky one, and this one turned out poorly.
During this last series, the bullpen faltered and exposed itself as potentially weak. Can’t blame this on Beane, either. Ziegler was sick and Casilla was injured. But Beane put together a stellar bullpen. Devine, Ziegler, who are both legitimate closer-types, Springer, Wuertz, Casilla, who are all legitimate set-up guys, and a guy like Bailey that came out of nowhere. Those are six 1s and 2s in a bullpen.
Players will get healthier. Holliday will hit. Duke will return (hopefully).
Everybody just take a step back. Relax. A couple of bad games is not the end of the world.
by NateHST on May 3, 2009 11:40 PM PDT reply actions 9 recs
FIRE NATEHST NOW
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
hahahaha
nice
"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball
I agree with what you are saying
and it’s correct but I take issue with Beane hiring lame arse managers and this one needs to be show the door. He has no clue how to manage the pitchers. Takes good hitters out (which are few and far between on this team) and leaves no offense.
Travis Buck has not been great but he should have been playing RF with Rajai Davis on the bench. I think Buck’s problem is sitting on the bench and not playing against LHP. No wonder he fails in his two at bats per week. Buck has shown plenty of promise, at least enough to warrant playing time and he sure is a hell of a lot better than Davis.
The other thing that gets to me and pisses me off is the lack of aggression with runners on. Strike 3 lookings should be minimal. Yes, the umpire screws up but that is not an excuse. It seems most players want to back their way on base. Jack Cust has changed and is attacking the ball early in the count. He will still have his strikeouts but he has been very impressive so far this season. I think this falls on Beane as this let’s take a walk philosophy worked years ago but has not worked of late. Like I have said a few times, The slegnA had the least walks in the AL last year bust scored over 100 more runs than us. What’s wrong with that picture.
Now having said all this, The offense should be fine when players are healthy and the weather warms up. Meanwhile Fire Geren which is not going to happen.
The slegnA had much better hitters than we did last year.
That’s why they scored more runs.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
Yes, Geren isn't really the Bobby Fischer of the managerial world
But he’s serviceable and the players, except for probably Buck, seem to like him. If there was a clear guy that would be an upgrade, I’m sure Beane would go get him.
But the point I was addressing was all the Beane hating, which was the point of this fanpost. Beane doesn’t injure the players. Beane doesn’t throw bad pitchers or make errors. Beane just puts the team on the field and what they do from there is not on him—unless his team has something ridiculous on it like David Eckstein as your starting shortstop or Jeter as your centerfielder.
The team is hurting now...
and the year before, and the year before that, and…
When is any responsibility going to be handed out for constantly building teams on players that are obvious injury risks?
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
i thought it was windyfelix too
the negativity, double dash, two question marks instead of one or three…
"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball
Did he get the banhammer?
I can’t remember a single positive windyfelix fanpost.
"To this day and dating back 25 years, before every game he plays, Henderson stands completely naked in front of a full length locker room mirror and says, "Ricky’s the best," for several minutes."
by VORP is too nerdy on May 4, 2009 12:51 AM PDT up reply actions
me neither
i always thought they were a troll. i haven’t checked to see when their last post was, so it’s possible i guess.
"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball
I'd be willing to change vocation if the GM job opened up
Unless Jason has someone else in mind to replace Beane, of course.
The monster at the end of this blog.
I just want an assistant GM slot.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
That's why I love you.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
And here I thought it was 'cause of my soft, fuzzy fur exterior
The monster at the end of this blog.
Well, that tickles, but it's a fringe benefit.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
Holliday and Teixeira have about the same stats so far.
FIRE CASHMAN NOW.
<in all seriousness, nobody could see a sub-.700 OPS for Holliday.>
"And you just don't get it, you keep it copacetic..."
not sure how much this matters
but Holliday is also facing a lot of pitchers for the first time in the AL. I’m curious to see what happens when he starts seeing guys a second time…
"You miss 100% of the shots you don’t take.
-Wayne Gretzky"
-Michael Scott
by scatterbrian on May 4, 2009 11:12 AM PDT up reply actions
how often do you get to see guys "a second time"?
He’s now seen Saunders for 8 AB’s… how’d that work for him? Frustrating.
by Colorado Fan on May 4, 2009 10:16 PM PDT up reply actions
you're not supposed to reply to this after he faces Saunders a second time!
it’s actually been six plate appearances, and he’s 1 for 6 with three foul popups to 1B. The A’s and Angels play four more series this season, so Holliday will likely see Saunders a few more times this season.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don’t take.
-Wayne Gretzky"
-Michael Scott
by scatterbrian on May 5, 2009 12:32 PM PDT up reply actions
In all seriousness, did people even think that Cashman was a good GM? The guy’s in hot water every year. Beane, on the other hand, gets all the attention for being a great GM. I think the fact that Holliday and Teixeira have the same stats so far reflects more poorly on Beane. Cashman often signs players who don’t produce as expected, what’s new? But Beane??? He’s made a few blunders of his own which aren’t as highly publicized, Hudson, Harden, and now maybe Carlos Gonzalez for Holliday, but people will now begin to see that he doesn’t always do the right thing.
per ken korach, he's whiffing mostly at fast balls and hitting the offspeed stuff...
does anybody know if this distinction matters? seems like it’d be easier to time a fastball than the multiple dimensions of offspeed stuff?
Holliday
I don’t buy all this he doesn’t want to be here malarkey. Guy is having a VERY ROUGH start in the AL (and might be pining for a return to the NL.) But his fortunes improve with success, and I am sure he WANTS to hit. Batting at Coors Field still requires you to hit the ball hard, so I won’t accept that as a issue either. Dude is just wallowing like the rest of the team. And as sucky as it has been, what are you gonna do? Go A’s.
Enjoy the game
Here are his career starts
March/April for Colorado (which actually meant more games than the A’s have played this year in every year but his rookie season, when he was a part-timer early in the season)
850 OPS It is his lowest month (925-941-992-891-1000 are the others)
The last two seasons his start was 901 (‘08) and 1000 (’07). The two years before that it was 772 and 733. The rookie year playing only 12 games it was 675.
So at 648 this is officially his worst start in the bigs. Hopefully he’ll start to approach (not match, given the Coors effect) those other numbers pretty soon.
I don't buy the "he's not trying" crap either
He’s in a contract year, for God’s sake, and his agent is Scott Boras. It’s far more likely his real problem is that he’s trying too hard, as evidenced by his decreased walk rate. It’s also possible that he really isn’t that great of a player outside of Coors Field. Most likely, though, it’s a bit of both.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Billy Beane has consistently gotten better outcomes than
should be expected, given payroll. He’s probably not nearly as brilliant as he seemed early on, but he also has had more challenges to deal with since then (consistently low draft picks — until last year, a health record that would make House cringe, a league that is less stupid than it was a decade ago, the loss of his top lieutenants, the burden of unrealistic expectations, etc, etc). BB is not perfect, but he is among the best GMs in the game.
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
But... can't I still want his job?
I mean, his job is better than mine.
And it pays more.
The monster at the end of this blog.
From 1999-2006
there is no argument. I would argue that, given payroll, based on regular season alone, he was the best GM in the game. And pretty close to it even factoring in postseason success or lack thereof, depending on how important you view those October small samples to be.
But if you draw the line at 2004, for example, since the Hudson and Mulder trades. Or at 2003 after the resigning of Chavez. Is it the same verdict?
He has opten, or been forced, to deal 5 quality starting pitchers and one everyday player (two if you count Ramon Hernandez and three if you include the Chavez-Tejada decision, and four if you include Dye which is controversial given the reality of his contract) and what did the A’s get in return? And could the team have afforded to keep one or more of the above talents?
So far the A’s appear to have gotten a lot of promise (with the exception of 3 very fine years of Haren), a fair amount of disappointment, and a lot of injury, though not necessarily from the same batch of players. We all understand the philosophy, and we all get that the competiition has gotten tougher and smarter since 2003. Boston and the Angels are now two very real competitors for the playoffs who spend a lot more money and not stupidly though the Angels do come close on occasion. I think the disturbing thing is the worry that the merry-go-round will never stop— that even as Player A, B or C start to finally bear fruit, they may be dispatched for Players D, E or F, or undermined by the loss of Players G, H or I. (I won’t discuss Player Z here, but glad to see he threw a nice game yesterday) That this franchise will never take a stand and say " this is it.. this is the team". Maybe the finances simply cannot allow it until the new ballpark becomes real. But will Beane even be here when… no if, that day ever comes?
The A's just aren't in the same class as some of the teams you're comparing them to
Even with Beane at his best, the A’s will not be able to field competitive teams every single year. No team does. And it’s less realistic given the A’s limitations. Even the Yankees were under .500 four straight years from 1989-1992.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don’t take.
-Wayne Gretzky"
-Michael Scott
by scatterbrian on May 4, 2009 11:41 AM PDT up reply actions
If you draw the line at 2004, the A's are 13 games over .500 since then, despite a payroll that is well below average ...
The Merry-Go-Round will never stop … and in a lot of ways, that’s a good thing. One of the key differences between the Red Sox and the Yankees is that, despite their money, the Red Sox are willing to stay on that Merry-Go-Round, while the Yankees see almost no turnover, not related to injuries, from year to year.
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
"a league that is less stupid than it was a decade ago"
I think that’s what people see to misunderstand the most. It wasn’t long ago that DePodesta was fired and labeled “Google Boy” by the loco local media. Now teams are hiring or searching for guys like Tom Tango and Keith Woolner. Both directly and indirectly, Billy Beane raised the GM bar.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don’t take.
-Wayne Gretzky"
-Michael Scott
by scatterbrian on May 4, 2009 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions
Line between 'genius' and 'idiot' in pro sports is pretty thin.
I don’t know anything about football, but I had always assumed that Gruden and Shanahan and Gibbs were genius-type pro football coaches. They all won the Super Bowl, of course, and in Gibbs’ case he won again and again. Parcells seems like a pretty smart guy, too. But then they stick around a while and … revert to the mean. All of a sudden you notice that without John Elway Shanahan didn’t win and got fired, without LT Parcells didn’t win and got pushed aside, without the best offensive line in football, Gibbs didn’t win and was asked to quit. Did these guys get stupid? Did they used to be good, or were they on average just lucky?
When you think about Billy, what he managed to do with the A’s all of those years was pretty amazing. But the easy criticism is that whereas the league once mis-priced guys who could get on base and take pitches, that’s hardly a mystery any more. So Billy tried to get Youkilis but failed, we learned in Moneyball. Now the guys he tries to get, he gets, and generally they suck. The guys he gives up seem much of the time to develop more than the guys he gets in return.
My guess is that in baseball, too, the line is pretty slim, and whereas Billy was both good and lucky for a while, a lot of the advantage he once enjoyed has been priced into the market for talent, and, to top it off, his luck has gone bad. My own beef with Billy is limited to two really horrible trades: dumping Milton Bradley two years ago when the A’s were right there at the break, after which they totally imploded, and trading Rich Harden for complete crap at the break last year. Billy has a famously bed temper, of course, and it’s hard to think of those moves as anything other than tantrums that hurt the club, though I know AN feels otherwise. OK, one other thing: injuries aside, it amazes me that the A’s kept Chavvy in the heart of this lineup for so many years when he was so awful in key ABs. If Chavvy were to end his season right now, I look forward to someone compiling his RISP stats over the last 4 years. My guess is that they will be right up there with the worst stats in the history of the game.

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