Geren's Ineptitude Exposed Again In Doubleheader Sweep
by Nico on May 29, 2009 8:28 PM PDT
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PrintFinal Scores: 6-3 Rangers and 5-2 Rangers
Game 1: Travis Buck hit a 2-run HR in the 2nd and Josh Outman struck out a career high 9 in 6.2 IP of 3 hit ball, but Marlon Byrd's HR off Outman tied the game 3-3 in the 7th and back-to-back HRs off Santiago Casilla in the 8th, by Andruw Jones and Nelson Cruz, gave Texas a 6-3 win.
Game 2: Texas scored 4 runs in the 1st inning off of Edgar Gonzalez, capped off by Taylor Teagarden's bases loaded two-run single, and the A's offense was...well...the A's offense.
This double-header was painful for me to watch, but not because the A's lost twice, not because the A's fell 10 games under .500, not because the A's dropped to 10 games out of 1st place. The most painful part was the occasional shot in the dugout of Ron Washington, whose intelligence, intensity, and high expectations cannot be denied by anyone who has followed his career. The A's aren't going to win the West, so I hope the Rangers do - they were smart enough to hire Ron Washington to manage their team and they deserve, as he deserves, some success.
What's remarkable to me is that a decision Bob Geren made in New York, to bring the infield in with runners at second and third and nobody out in the 2nd inning of a 0-0 game (Brett Gardner vs. Dana Eveland), which I thought was evidence of a manager who had no strategic understanding of the game, is now only the THIRD dumbest decision that I think Geren has made. I thought walking Russell Branyan in Seattle (ahead of Jose Lopez' game-winning hit) to load the bases was even more moronic, but tonight Geren outdid even himself, ordering an intentional walk to Chris Davis to load the bases in the 1st inning of Game 2.
Chris Davis had struck out all four ABs in Game 1, and finished the double-header 0-7 with 6 Ks. He has now struck out a major league leading 77 times, including 23 times in his last 34 ABs. He is batting .194 and will likely be optioned to AAA. In sum, he is essentially, this season and especially right now, the equivalent of a pitcher batting. I was truly in disbelief when I saw this move being made.
I'm sorry. Bob Geren is simply not fit to manage a major league baseball team. Even stupid managers don't make some of the decisions he has made - and it's not like his team plays good fundamental baseball, or exudes any noticeable intensity or joy in the dugout or on the field. A's players - who are both young and limited in talent and need every advantage they can get - and A's fans, deserve better.
{Reminder: If you want to join SoCal ANers for the Dodgers game on June 16th or the Padres game on June 20th, remember to email baseballgirl ASAP. Her email address is: baseballgirl1976@hotmail.com}
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If you ask nicely,
I will break you down into tears with a flood of hard data the contradicts the very essence of your statement.
by sleepingcobra on May 29, 2009 8:36 PM PDT up reply actions
Your spelling is "overated," unless you're claiming that Beane has been eaten too much,
in which case, grammar notwithstanding, your point might be more accurate.
But seriously, if Beane wants to reclaim his place amidst the vanguard of baseball minds he better hire his next manager off a blog.
Screw the data the bottom line is wins and losses IMO
Beane is not performing like a good GM. Especially the last three years. There are many reasons why. Most of you know them. Bob Geren, Art Howe, Ken Macha, Bob Geren, Esteban Loazia, Jack Hannahan, Dana Eveland, Bobby Crosby, Eric Chavez Hurt but no drafting, Bob Geren, Russ Springer, bringing up Edgar Gonzalez who sucks, Injury after Injury but not addressing the problem, Still living in the walk, walk, 3 run homer world without the power, NOT FIRING Bob Geren YET,
Some of you people think Beane is still a genius when he continues to put this embarrassment on the field day after day. That’s fine as everyone has their opinions. We all love the A’s but they simply suck goats balls and how anyone in their right mind would pay to watch them in person is beyond me. I will still listen everyday and somehow hope they win but it angers the fuck out of me everytime we lose. Great writeup as usual, Nico but the bottom line is the GM. He is responsible for putting this crap on the field and he needs to be held accountable. The media need to give him a ration of shit about this and the genius tag needs to be dispensed with once and for all.
I read "but they simply suck goat balls."
I laughed. Thanks, Trainman.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
You know Nico
I forgot about your afinity for goats when I typed that. I think I am being hard on the goats there because goats are too good to have their balls sucked by the A’s and their staff.
I wonder if it's appropriate to make a joke that nobody is
too good to have their balls sucked. It probably crosses a line though…
I know I'm not too good.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
SUCKING GOAT BALLS = UNDERRATED
They're called RUNS for a reason.
I dont understand
What people expected when Beane said he was rebuilding.
Everyone is shocked that that = losing for a few years?
Never, Never, NEVER give up
by hero66 on May 29, 2009 10:29 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm not in the anti-Beane camp at all, but...
trading Carlos Gonzalez doesn’t scream “rebuilding” to me. This 2009 season hasn’t been retooling, reloading, or rebuilding. It’s been an abortion.
That was key - I still like C. Gonzalez better than Sweeney
because he’s a better CFer and has more upside. Maybe he’ll turn out to be crap, but the A’s NEED more players with higher upside and fewer “tweener” players (meh defensive CFer or meh hitting RFer) like Sweeney.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on May 29, 2009 11:19 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Ryan Tweeney
"You miss 100% of the shots you don’t take.
-Wayne Gretzky"
-Michael Scott
by scatterbrian on May 30, 2009 5:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Except Cargon was a tweener.
Cargon had serious defensive questions about his ability to play CF long term. Most pegged him as a long term RF and not a true CF. Sometimes you find a tweener that exceeds his projections to play D in CF. Other times you get 4th OFers.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on May 30, 2009 6:07 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, except
CarGon has a cannon arm, and a bat with some actual power in it.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
And speed
He may never post an OBP high enough to make him a good hitter, but he is likely to hit with some power and continue to be a solid defensive CFer.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Again that is AFTER last year. When the trade was made he was considered a tweener.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on May 30, 2009 7:14 PM PDT up reply actions
Which makes no sense when talking about him playing RF or CF
He profiled to be a tweener, not having enough range for center and possibly not having enough power to make him an above average starting corner outfielder. His arm just means that he was a CF → RF candidate rather than a CF → LF guy.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on May 30, 2009 7:14 PM PDT up reply actions
The power makes a lot of sense.
What else do you want from a corner outfielder, and if Sweeney and Gonzalez have the same range (which is generous, in Sweeney’s favor), a better arm is going to make Gonzalez a better centerfielder.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Again im not comparing the two...
Until last year Cargon was not thought to have the range of a true CF and questions about his ability to put up a corner OF OBP make him a tweener.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on May 30, 2009 7:52 PM PDT up reply actions
Until last year...
When was the trade made? I am aware that you are mortally opposed to conceding anything in an argument in which Nico is involved, but there’s way too much killing the messenger going on in your responses.
As someone who views themselves in between Nico’s “my eyes tell me what they need to see” approach and PaulThomas’ “I don’t even watch A’s games” approach, I’d welcome a productive dialogue with you, but that’s only going to work if you’re interested in it.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
For the record, jeepers, I do think stats are important
as well as observation. The two, working together, can help to cross-check one another.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Let me clarify.
When the A’s traded for Carlos Gonzalez in the Haren deal, he was considered by Baseball America at least as a tweener.
I am not mortal opposed to conceding things when Nico is involved. However I find that Nico rarely addresses the substance of the arguments that I make. As such, I is hard for him to make cogent points concerning my arguments that would warrant me conceding to them. If you look at my discussions with Waddelcanseco, who is my favorite poster left (actually I haven’t seen him around much recently) after the great stats poster exodus, I concede quite often when he has valid reasoning for his arguments.
My only point is that if you want to complain about tweeners you should be complaining about how we shouldn’t have acquired Carlos Gonzalez in the first place because he didn’t have true CF range.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on May 31, 2009 12:25 AM PDT up reply actions
Wow more typos in this one than there should be.
mortally not mortal. As such, it is.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on May 31, 2009 1:11 AM PDT up reply actions
BA was indeed skeptical about his range long-term.
Unlike Sweeney, though, Gonzalez has shown significantly more pop in his minor-league career than Sweeney (he’s slugged .482 compared to Sweeney’s .405). That disparity would actually be higher if you looked at the numbers at the time of the Haren deal, since Gonzalez only slugged .416 in Sacramento last year.
In Gonzalez’s case, it wouldn’t be a disaster if he couldn’t stick in center, while in Sweeney’s case it clearly would (or will) be. There is enough merit to CarGon’s bat to make him a worthwhile risk as a “tweener,” and thus no reason to complain as vociferously about him being a tweener as you would Sweeney.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Look, Im not comparing Sweeney v Cargon...
because Cargon is/was a better prospect. I am just saying, that when acquired there were questions about Cargons ability to get on base enough to produce at a corner OF position and questions about his longterm range. Is he a better risk than Sweeney was? Of course, thats why he was a centerpiece and not a throw in.
If Nico left his statement at “The A’s need more players with upside” or the A’s need prospects with more talent, I would agree, though there are several coming up the pipeline with such talent.
The problem with Sweeney who is essentially playing league average CF defense is that he can’t hit to a even CF standard, not that he is a tweener. Acquiring tweeners isn’t a problem its counting on players that can’t hit their way out of a paper bag.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on May 31, 2009 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions
Which by some accounts was forced by ownership.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on May 30, 2009 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions
He was also like
“WE’Z GON CONTEND IN 09” back in the off season.
by ElQuesoCapitan on May 29, 2009 10:54 PM PDT up reply actions
Screw the data, the bottom line is - er - wait - um - data?
Just relax, pour yourself a glass of red wine, get in your comfiest sweat pants, lean back a little, read this and actually think about what it means:
- Oakland’s average rank in terms of payroll in Billy Beane’s first 11 years as General Manager (1998-2008): 23.9.
- Oakland’s average rank in terms of wins: 9.7
Not too bad, eh? Of course, anyone doing the things I instructed at the top of this post would calmly reorganize their nasty opinion of Billy Beane. But hey, the last two years haven’t been too great.
Anyway, just for fun, let’s throw those out and look at these:
- In Beane’s first 9 years those ranks become 24.2 (payroll) and 7.7 (in wins).
- That’s literally a playoff team with the 24th payroll in baseball.
Moral of this story: Beane haters need some motherfucking perspective.
by sleepingcobra on May 29, 2009 10:39 PM PDT up reply actions 4 recs
Take the blinders off
we have perspective. Look at Minneosta. Their GM knows what he’s doing and they make the playoffs often.
I am talking about 2007, 2008 and 2009
If you took the time to read that part you would see what I am getting at.
I read all the parts.
He fields less talented teams 3 years in a row and you want his head.
That lacks perspective.
A whole shitload of perspective.
by sleepingcobra on May 29, 2009 10:49 PM PDT up reply actions
And what about his choice of managers
The fact that he has not fired Geren yet and has hired all these lame duck “Yes Sir” managers should be an indication that there’s something rotten in Oakland
Ok.
You keep making points that are unrelated to the smashing evidence I presented.
Payroll in the lowest third.
Wins in the highest third.
Is it not you who said that the bottom line is wins and losses?
by sleepingcobra on May 29, 2009 10:54 PM PDT up reply actions
You can sit there and worship this person if you wish
trotting the same manager along with the same Davis, Hannahan and Crosby while having no replacements in line is inept and 3 years of that is enough to make most fans puke.
If we didn’t care about the team, we would not be bitching.
You're using hyperbole.
I’m using very simple numbers.
Though I suppose it’s totally natural to root for the underdog – and since Beane’s been painted by many as some flawless and handsome god, people have been after him from the start.
by sleepingcobra on May 29, 2009 11:02 PM PDT up reply actions
people have been after him from the start.
When did this starting point tip off?
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Which was when?
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
wow
seriously?
"You miss 100% of the shots you don’t take.
-Wayne Gretzky"
-Michael Scott
by scatterbrian on May 30, 2009 5:24 PM PDT up reply actions
If your perspective is Minnesota
You’re throwing out 28 other teams.
Blinders?
by sleepingcobra on May 29, 2009 10:47 PM PDT up reply actions
If I was a Seattle fan
I could make this argument easily, or so I think, but be labeled as a hater.
I know little about the A’s, but in my humble opinion, ineptitude starts at the top. Ownership, Beane, Forst and whoever else runs the operation. That’s true in every sport.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Sure, except that
Beane’s been doing a great job. 2, 3 or 4 down years is nothing. Name a team who doesn’t have 3 down years and I’ll show you not enough teams to fill 1 division.
by sleepingcobra on May 29, 2009 10:57 PM PDT up reply actions
I accept the limitations of my knowledge
But, it doesn’t take much to say Beane isn’t doing a great job. If he was, this team would have better management from top to bottom if he was. Simple.
Your statement is an opinion based on previous years. Is rebuilding a bad thing? No. But I don’t think your statement is that simple.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Your knowledge is just fine
But you’re still missing the point – Beane is doing a great job – in baseball we measure how well a team is doing according to wins and losses. Check out my post above for those numbers.
To wit, managers have very little to do with the game, ultimately. If you have good pitchers and good hitters, you’re just going to win games by the sheer force of your excellence. Managers only really come into play in tight games – and at that not much still because most managers make similar decisions in similar situations – so it’s usually a tactical wash.
I don’t disagree that Geren has been bad, though. I do disagree that it is Beane’s fault. Beane has had a very low payroll year in and year out. We’re lucky we’ve been to the playoffs once in the least 11 years. I think that we’ve been spoiled, actually, and that these down years sting all the more because of it.
by sleepingcobra on May 29, 2009 11:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Hmmm
Okay. Well, I guess I’m going to be more critical of the organizaton (whoever is running it). I agree managers have little to do with the game, but Macha & Geren sure have screwed up games continuously. Especially Macha, but I’m not the expert on Geren. I’ll leave it to everyone else who has watched like nearly every A’s game during Geren’s tenure to asses that.
I’m not blaming Beane. I’m saying this organization has problems. If they’re fixable or not I don’t know. I don’t know any answers. But, repeatedly, if they are the same issue’s, the finger points at someone. I’d be curious who those “someone’s” are, Beane or no. I’m an A’s fan. Was before Beane, and if he leaves, will be after that too.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Also
I admit I’m a fan of EiO and Zach has not posted anything for most of the last 2 years. That hurts me. (I’m not here to pick fights.)
But, still, if David Forst isnt the GM, and Billy Beane is, who cares? If Forst was the GM, and Beane is above him, presumably in ownership, he would still have to sign off any deal Forst made.
I don’t understand the insistence on protecting anybody’s reputation here. This team is suffering. It’s offense has been at a lower level since Tejada left.
In 2003, they were 9th. In 2004, 9th again. (I"m not going to reinsert links. It’s just ESPN.) In 2005, Oakland was actually 6th. In 2006, Oakland was back to 9th. 2007 they were 11th. 2008 they were last. So far in 2009, they are 12th.
I don’t wish to say that Beane is to blame if he’s not GM. I don’t care to assign blame here. I don’t care if Forst is the GM. I don’t care if he’s still the assistant GM. I don’t care how the dynamic works.
This team doesn’t score runs. (in fact it sucks donkey balls. Has since 2003 really.) That’s somebody’s fault. If Beane is the guy running this team, he’s at the top of the pyramid and who not to start with blame? If he rebuilds this team, then great. If not him, who?
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Eh what?
What about my statement isn’t clear?
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Ok fine.
If you want to peg someone at the top – why not peg ownership – who has strapped the team with a tiny payroll? The way Beane has managed that payroll has been more successful than it has not.
by sleepingcobra on May 29, 2009 11:32 PM PDT up reply actions
Because it's Beane's choice to remain GM (if in fact he is)
If he can’t do better with the resources he does have, than I won’t cut him slack because ownership doesn’t give him the resources other clubs won’t.
I question that in part because he did take the job for Boston. He had every opportunity to do what you are saying. He chose to remain in Oakland.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
or other clubs will
With 20 million or 100 million, it’s the job of a GM to find talent so his team can win games.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
You're all over the map.
1) He stayed here because of his daughter(s). But that doesn’t matter. You’re not making any points.
2) Don’t cut him slack. Do all the not-slack-cutting you want. No matter how much slack you don’t cut him, he’s still done a better job with a tiny payroll (or a medium or a big payroll for that matter) than a lot of other GMs. It’s just a fact. You can ignore it all you want and get back to your no-slack-cutting.
by sleepingcobra on May 29, 2009 11:39 PM PDT up reply actions
I’m not ignoring anything. I’m saying this team doesn’t score enough runs to win games consistently. Whose fault it is I don’t really care. Ultimately it’s the 25 guys fault on the field. But they don’t put themselves there. Someone on the A’s decides to put them there.
Whoever that person, I would like to thank them for a terrible offense that, when I have watched the team, just had to groan.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Minnesota has a low payroll
and their GM seems to have players who can perform at their positions just fine.
The fact that Beane put all his eggs in two baskets with Chavez and Crosby and then failed to draft in those positions the last three or four years when the injury problems arose, shows a lack of intelligence in that area Or more like total stubbornness on Beane’s part because of his man crush on both those players.
Your smashing evidence overlooks the fact that Beane is deficient in a few areas
Stop it.
Stop it right now. You’re still avoiding the point: “wins and losses” (as championed by you) and “perspective” (championed by me).
If you keep bringing up one other team and a handful of bad personnel moves, you’re not getting anywhere.
by sleepingcobra on May 29, 2009 10:59 PM PDT up reply actions
LOL
I am not going to respond anymore. It appears you think Beane is the second coming while I think he has many flaws and is currently making a fool of the fans that support the team. You have your opinion, I have mine.
The team has a very bad record the last three years. The number one reason is the team has a shitty manager and I am quite sure (Just a guess) that most of the players think that Geren is a total wanker and they have very little respect for him. The roster has many holes in it and you can not tell me there are not alternatives to Hannahan and Davis out there because a three legged giraffe could play better ball than those two. A few of the players here are lucky to be collecting paychecks and that is all they care about.
How can you not respond if I don't respond FIRST!
1) I don’t think Beane is Jesus. I think Beane’s done a good job. Check that – I know he’s done a good job.
2) I don’t know about him making fools out of people. Maybe he has. I don’t feel like a fool. I’m gathering that you do. Beane wins.
3) The second paragraph here switches gears. Now you’re blaming the manager? Or the fact that there’s no one to play third? Or that the team is full of money-hungry baseball-haters? Giraffes?
by sleepingcobra on May 29, 2009 11:44 PM PDT up reply actions
Beane is responsible for the manager and the players
they are failing
Beane has not done a good job of late. Beane is not winning of late.
Who cares about 5,7,10 years ago. This is now.
Like I said, You have your opinion and I have mine. Mine is BEANE IS LOOKING DUMBER BY THE DAY, EACH DAY HE HAS HIS BEST BUDDY IN CHARGE. I am not going to change your opinion and you are sure as hell not going to change mine. End of discussion
FUCK!
I was just about to change my opinion and you go and end the discussion.
by sleepingcobra on May 29, 2009 11:51 PM PDT up reply actions
I love you, SC.
I miss you posting. Do it more plz.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
It's hard
to be around the Beane Sucks Mob. I get gang banged and can’t spend the necessary 14 hours a day to adequately refute their replies.
by sleepingcobra on May 30, 2009 6:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Minnesota's days are numbered too.
Beane has given us seven contending years to three non-contending years. A lot of sports fans would kill for that kind of ratio, and most GMs get a lot more rope than you’re advocating for Beane. You just seem very impatient to me.
Might I ask who you propose would do a better job than Beane?
If baseball doesn't put in a salary cap
That’s always going to be the case.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
And I mean
That if a salary cap doesn’t exist, a bigger market team with all the resources will be able to buy themselves out of the natural lulls.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I would like him to answer why
He has a giant hole at 3rd base and not hear the “We were counting on Chavy” excuse and why he puts out Jack Hannahan who perfroms worse than half the NL pitchers who bat at a postion where we need and expect offense from.
Why he has garbage like E Gonzalez and Eveland before him when he thinks we have a chance to contend and most importantly, why we have a manager who thinks he’s won the lottery when the team loses and finds a positive when the team gets thrashed game after game.
I think half of this is fair:
The A’s could have signed Branyan this offseason, and I really wish they had signed a veteran SP to take some pressure off the young arms (I bet that if Beane had known Duke/Eveland/Gallagher would all be injured/suck he would have).
At the same time, neither move would have made the A’s competitive this year. This franchise is trying to pull out of a system-wide rut that is bigger than just the MLB club, and its a process.
Branyan
Branyan would be nice but he is having a career year, is poor defensively, and historically have been pretty average offensively. In fact when taking defense into account Hannahan had actually been a more valuable player the previous two seasons.
Relying on Chavez was a foreseeable mistake. Having an injury prone backup in Garciaparra was a mistake as well although I didn’t expect him to be this injury prone – although this is an indication of the A’s/Geren’s earlier overuse of him.
However Eveland was a 2.7 win SP last year – it was not too much to expect him to contribute in the rotation this year, and I don’t think the manner of his collapse was reasonably predictable. Every team gives up innings to fringe SP like Gonzalez. He has had one good start and one bad start so I think we can cut Beane some slack over that.
Explain this please?
The fact that Beane put all his eggs in two baskets with Chavez and Crosby and then failed to draft in those positions the last three or four years when the injury problems arose…
The chronic nature of Chavez’s injuries didn’t really appear until 2006. Crosby was ROY in 2004, and his inability to stay in the lineup didn’t really show up until maybe 2005. Some people might argue that both happened sooner, but that’s just Monday morning quarterbacking. So that’s three drafts, 2006, 2007 and 2008. Can you look back in those drafts and tell us who the A’s should have drafted, players who would also be helping the A’s right now?
"You miss 100% of the shots you don’t take.
-Wayne Gretzky"
-Michael Scott
by scatterbrian on May 30, 2009 6:02 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
It's in the past
Since the end of 2006, this team has been crap.
Debate that.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
One could also argue
That the team hasn’t really been any good since 2004, and that they got lucky with Frank Thomas in 2006. Further, the A’s haven’t developed a single useful offensive player of their own under Billy Beane, unless you want to count Nick Swisher. They have picked up nice pieces via trades and free agency, but a real lack of ability to organically develop offensive talent is a persistant and vexing problem.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
I'd say they were at least more competitive before that in the sense they were in the division race
But since then, just a bad team overall and Bob Geren as the manager doesn’t help.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
That's fair enough.
It seems to me that the beginning of the end was not getting rid of Huddy/Mulder/Zito, because Beane has done a fine job of retooling pitching, but the dismantling of the core offense of the early decade.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
who signed Frank Thomas?
"You miss 100% of the shots you don’t take.
-Wayne Gretzky"
-Michael Scott
by scatterbrian on May 30, 2009 6:03 PM PDT up reply actions
=) +1!
me getting tired of all this losing, especially with the ugly mug in the dugout every game making lame excuses for all his boneheaded excuses……
Still, as we have all been debating for some time now, the blame starts and ends at the top. Billy Beane needs to step up to the plate and accept responsibility for this mess. He’s the architect and the building is crumbling in front of our eyes as we speak.
As always….Go A’s!
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
Me thinks....
sleepingcobra is Billy Beane (or perhaps his mommy) in disguise. I look at 1 fundamental decision that BB got wrong and how it has continued to affect this team…the decision to sign Eric Chavez rather than Miguel Tejada to a long term contract. That turned out to be a stroke of genius didn’t it, napping reptile?
by Keystone State on Jun 2, 2009 5:17 AM PDT up reply actions
I agree, Beane has made a lot of poor decisions.
I think he put the team in a place where it had to spend ‘07-’09 waiting on bad contracts in the hopes of extracting some kind of value from them (Chavez, Crosby, Kotsay, Kendall, Embree, Loaiza etc.), and it would have been better if he had never gotten into that position in the first place. Plus there was nothing much coming through the A’s system, and Barton, Herrera and Buck did not become the type of impact position players Beane had hoped. At least not soon enough for him to avoid making a bunch of trades.
But I never really expected him to be godlike, or somehow above the laws governing the 29 other GMs. I just figured he was a pretty good businessman, and I still think so given that his record is still more good than bad. I think to say he’s overrated depends on who is doing the rating and whether they’re using realistic criteria.
I’m willing to give Beane until the ‘08 draft class matures before I start calling for his head. The A’s went over slot a bunch last year, and a lot of the players they drafted are of a similar age to the players they traded for, 21-3, meaning the core of the rebuild is still a year or two from fully maturing. IMO that, contrary to popular opinion, this group contains some solid position player prospects – something Beane has lacked since long before this rebuild began.
by scromulus on May 29, 2009 11:11 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
My personal feeling on the farm system is
that the A’s should rely on it to win. If they aren’t doing that, i question why. Always have and always will. The A’s may not be able to keep the top tier talent because of money questions, but allocating the largeest chunk of your resources towards the farm seems to make the most sense to me. It worked for Branch Rickey. Although, having like 42 Farm clubs is a bit easier to do that too.
Still, the A’s farm system is a concern to me. They used to produce players out of the farm all the time. Why do players like (he just sticks out to me) Chad Pennington drop out of the system so easily?
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I agree.
I think Beane’s failure isn’t that he failed to retain the team’s best players – a lot of those guys are either not very good or out of baseball right now – but that he failed to maintain a top tier farm system.
Yeah that has to be part of it
My other question is simple: If this team values OBP as they are so often said to have, why can’t they score? If they get on base, why can’t they score. I think Beane doesn’t value hackers at all.
I’ll preface this about saying what I think was personally brilliant about Ed Barrow (which there are a lot of things).
Barrow acquired Babe Ruth yes, and the team won, yes. But, I still think the WAY he designed Yankee Stadium was just as important as any of his other moves. If you build a gap in LCF that goes out to 469 feet, it doesn’t take a physics major to figure out you’re not going to hit the ball out of the park. If you get a CF that can roam the massive field out there, you’re going to increase the number of outs your pitching staff can get. It also means that any Left Hander who gets fly balls will be successful.
Case in point: Lefty Gomez.
Yankee Stadium was built for pitchers. Most of the great Yankees in history have been legendary hitters. Other than Ruth, not any of them played their home games anywhere else (except for that occasional game here or there).
So my question is simple: Why is it the A’s can’t focus on great hitting talent to supplement the fact they have a pitchers park? While that seems simple, it’s not always.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
And what's ironic is
They are last in the AL in OB% and SLG% (no shock there).
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
And they were last in 2008 as well
But 6th in OB% in 2007. Why?
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
They can't hit
If a team can’t hit, the opposing team can throw strikes. Passivity - if a player lays off the first pitch and it’s a strike, he starts his at-bat 0-1.
I think the entire statistical story of OBP is based on the idea that all things are being equal, i.e. the opposing team isn’t specifically taking measures against good eye/no hit players. But pitching strategy plays a role in the game, and if players are taught to lay off any pitch that isn’t perfect, pitchers who nibble can get away with a lot.
It's both refreshing and sad to watch Adam Kennedy,
who is both patient and aggressive at the plate, and who plays the game with a combination of solid fundamentals, risk taking, and intensity – it suggests you need to find Angels players if you want to find these qualities on an A’s diamond.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I would love to have had Cabrera the past 5 years,
batting 9th and anchoring SS.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Farm System
The A’s farm system was widely considered to be a top three system in all of baseball at the start of the year and this is a concern to you?
Having a great farm system doesn't mean much if they're only great in the minors
The recent track record of call-ups hasn’t been much to celebrate.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
More importantly, I think, the A's had to trade away
tons of good major league players to create that farm system because they have been unable to produce better players themselves.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
It is difficult to have it both ways
With the A’s budget it is not financiallly viable to have a great major league team and a great minor league system. The A’s had an average major league and a terrible minor league system. Beane did an excellent job of restocking the system at the expense of mediocrity at the major league level.
Given the situation, yes I agree he did a good job
It’s just that with more shrewd recent drafting/developing, the A’s might have entered this rebuilding in a better position. The lack of attention/success in addressing the left side of the infield since 2005 is a big part of why the A’s are still not in great shape going forward. Crosby and Pennington were first round picks – oops. At third base…?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I agree
There is obviously room for improvement. Drafting for need is a dangerous thing but with Wallace looking like he might stick at 3rd for the time being, and Weeks seemingly not being able to stay healthy that looks like a big mistake. The kick in the crotch is that if we went for best player available (Wallace) instead of drafting for need (Weeks), we would be better off and have better filled an area of need now.
They have continually passed on Major League talent in the draft and selected bums:
Oops, I mean Moneyballers…
Wallace, Smoak and Quentin would sure look god in green and gold and under club control right about now…
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by Raymond St. Martin (Saint) on May 30, 2009 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions
there you are my friend!
I was wondering when I’d see you post today. Get ’em Saint!
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
By "continually" do you mean a couple of drafts?
They’ve drafted and grown a good number of successful players. You’re just a cherry-pickin’ negative nelly.
by sleepingcobra on May 30, 2009 6:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Ouch.
Smoak #1 on Baseball America’s hot sheet. Texas sure knows how to pick good hitters. The Texas A’s would be the most dominant team ever.
These ain't your father's A's.
by ohtobe21likehuston on May 30, 2009 6:38 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Um the A's drafted Smoak....
and he wasn’t available for their first pick last year.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on May 30, 2009 6:55 PM PDT up reply actions
Perhaps but they did draft him to say otherwise isn't accurate.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on May 30, 2009 7:09 PM PDT up reply actions
saint knows what he's talking about.
He’s referring to the fact that the A’s elected not to sign him.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Not really, there is a good arguement to be made that Weeks was BPA.
Smoak wanted to go to South Carolina… shit happens and he wasn’t around for our pick last year.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on May 30, 2009 7:18 PM PDT up reply actions
Actually, no.
Saint has written on this site extensively about the decision to not sign Smoak. If you’ve been here long enough, you know exactly what he’s referencing.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
IIRC he said the difference was something like 200k.
And Beane has been kinda meally mouthed about why he didn’t pony up? Thats what youve been referring to right?
Sometimes you set a price. You have no idea what Beane’s budget for the draft was at that point. It was during the Hoffman era. Making those decisions 3 years later sure makes them easier too.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on May 30, 2009 7:58 PM PDT up reply actions
That's fair.
There is certainly some “hindsight is 20/20” in the view of Smoak’s non-signing we’re discussing. I think on the balance that Beane has learned from that mistake, which is why he shelled out unprecedented dollars to get Michel Ynoa.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
The problem is that stars are found early in the draft or above slot
for the most part. Beane has had to work with stingy owners (Hoffman and Lew didn’t want to bust slot on his frat buddy Bud) and low picks. Its quite amazing that the A’s have done as well as they have.
I think a lot of the criticism of Beane is misplaced when it comes to drafting.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on May 31, 2009 12:28 AM PDT up reply actions
Beane wasn't "mealy-mouthed" at all.
The alleged price difference was $50K, not $200K. That is based on Baseball America’s report that the A’s had offered $950K. In this interview with Blez, Beane stated explicitly that no actual offer was made.
This prompted some on AN to suggest that even if no offer was officially made, $950K was the amount floated unofficially by the A’s prior to the draft. But in the same interview, Beane also explicitly stated
I can assure you that if we were between $950,000 and a million dollars we would’ve found a way to get it done.
That implies one of three things (1) the A’s never suggested $950K at all, in which case Baseball America is wrong, (2) the A’s did float a figure of $950K but Smoak wasn’t going to sign even for $1 million, or (3) Beane is just lying about what happened.
Personally I believe it’s #2. Smoak’s “I’ll sign for $1 million” came conveniently after he knew how much the A’s had on the table and it was conveniently just a little more. If the A’s had offered $1.5 million, he would have said “I’ll sign for $1.6 million.”
Finally, if you believe Smoak really would have signed for $1 million, you need to explain why 29 other GM’s didn’t think so. Any team could have had him as late as the 15th round. You think Boston wouldn’t have drafted him in the 15th round if they thought they could get him for $1 million?
Yes, I know we’ve had this argument before (most of it is right there in the comments in the interview I linked). There is plenty of disagreement on it still. Just because Saint has “written extensively” on it, doesn’t mean the question is settled.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
Thanks for the perspective...
I was just reciting the argument that Jeepers was referring to off the top of my head.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on May 31, 2009 12:32 AM PDT up reply actions
$1 million isn't chump change
And it’s not even clear he would have signed for that.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
What Flash said
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
So the A's system was only rated so highly because the experts thought they would only be great in the minors?
Who are you talking about specifically? Cahill? Anderson? Bailey?
Not talking about anybody specifically
This is Cahill’s and Anderson’s first full season of service if the few clips I’ve read I read accurately. Not really sure Bailey is. (I’m not the first & foremost guru of players on the farm.)
I’m not talking about one player specifically. When is the last player that the A’s produced off their own farm, not received in a trade, that made a real impact in the Major Leagues? Miguel Tejada is the only guy I’m thinking of. Too many guys slip through the cracks (without knowing which exact guys and details I’ll admit) for this not to be depressing for me.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Their track record with pitchers is much better than it is with hitters
I have faith in the pitching prospects working out more than I do with the hitters at this point, but there is some potential in the likes of Doolittle and Carter, possibly Cardenas. Even then, of those three only Doolittle was actually drafted by the A’s.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
Yeah
That criticism is really more about hitters. Especially since the only reason this team has won games is the pitching staff. Maybe a small part of that is defense, but the rest of the nod goes to the staff. Eh, so where is the other part of that?
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Kurt Suzuki.
Nick Swisher
Joe Blanton
Huston Street
Travis Buck
Andre Ethier
Dallas Braden
Mark Teahen
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
by mikev on May 30, 2009 10:19 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah I mentioned him.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
You guys forgot Nick Swisher
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Ummm
If Ethier wasn’t with the Dodgers, and had actually played for the A’s at the Major League level, sure. But, he didn’t.
Glad Swisher is gone. Never did like him. But, the team has walked significantly less without him. But, they didn’t score runs either with him at a rate they needed to. Bleh.
Blanton and Street are pitchers. And, while I thought Blanton was okay, he certainly isn’t the loss to the team that Haren was. (Nor is that Blanton’s fault.) I’m up & down on Street. Again, he was a pitcher. Pitcher’s haven’t been the problem. HItting has. I haven’t criticized the pitching. (But, if I was to blame somebody for how Street was used, I’d blame Macha & Geren.)
I hope Braden does well. I hope Buck stays healthy.
Mark Teahan? That’s great he’s doing well. It’s so wonderful he’s doing it in KC.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Are you going to make a point
or are you going to just try and refute the answer to the question you brought up because it doesn’t coincide with the incorrect statement you made?
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
Made it already
Hitters aren’t producing at the Major League level for the A’s.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
To me a lot of it is about talent evaluation
The A’s think Sweeney will be a hitter who can handle LHP and can hit for some power. I suspect that Carlos Gonzalez could put up a .300 OBP and be a better CFer overall than Sweeney, but we’ll see.
The A’s coveted Barton (which made sense), but really Cust is the only hitter they have coveted, either in the draft or from another team, who has shown any power at all in the 2007-2010 group.
That’s one of the reasons I’m excited about Chris Carter long-term; he could actually be a scary hitter to pitch to and throw strikes to. The A’s simply need more of those.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
What level is Carter at?
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
AA now. The scouting reports
have indicated all along that he’s a player who should not be fast-tracked, that he’s really talented but also quite raw. I figure him to be in AAA in 2010 and in Oakland in 2011.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Is he a CF with power?
Which is why you covet him?
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Apparently not
A 1b. Hmph.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Oh and Nico
I just looked up Carter’s numbers. I hope you are correct. I just worry about a team with so many potential DH"s. I wish the team had better positional talent in the outfield where so many guys could play in the field most of the time and DH on days off. I hate the DH rule. Which is antithetical to AL baseball, but oh well.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
My guess is that Carter will be a 1Bman
I see his ceiling as being Jim Thome (which is obviously best, best case scenario) with a more likely comp being an “ok defensive 1Bman” version of Jack Cust.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Yeah
It’s pretty unusual for a 1B to suddenly change position to the OF when he’s played 1b throughout the minors.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Suzuki’s coming into his own as a hitter. Swisher is fairly average. Buck hasn’t done anything significant yet. Ethier blossomed elsewhere. So has Teahen. The rest are pitchers.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
I believe this was the question
When is the last player that the A’s produced off their own farm, not received in a trade, that made a real impact in the Major Leagues?
I answered the question.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
True
I was focusing more on the hitters in a different comment of mine, so that’s where my thoughts were.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
I really meant for the A's
So it was a poorly posed question. My bad.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Point is
that the A’s have only recently revamped their farm system so to expect immediate results is not reasonable. Beforehand the A’s have been consistently ranked in the bottom third of systems but still managed to produce all those useful major leaguers that MikeV listed below.
No real game-changers, though
People that are nice to have on your team, but nobody all that special.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
I don't know
I still have high hopes that Cahill and/or Anderson could be special.
Carter and Brown both could be
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on May 31, 2009 1:07 AM PDT up reply actions
Good point
I’d put Cardenas and Dixon in there as well.
I think Cardenas will be underrated as a pro rather than being "special"
but i think he will be good. Dixon was one I should have mentioned along with Coleman.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on May 31, 2009 1:22 AM PDT up reply actions
It's becoming "laughable"
What else are we supposed to do if Beane really thinks Geren is still the right man for the job? It’s a joke and everyone knows it.
I’m done being pissed off about this organization. Time to just root on the team for the hell of it knowing that there won’t be many victories compared to embarrassing losses. I will just concentrate on the few pieces that appear to fit and be happy when they succeed. It’s not the players’ faults and it’s crazy to blame them for being extremely average, if that.
These ain't your father's A's.
by ohtobe21likehuston on May 29, 2009 8:34 PM PDT reply actions
Starting Pitching
Anderson
Cahill
Braden
Outman
Mazzaro
Andrew Bailey…
(possibly) for the next 6 years makes me smile.
by Colorado Fan on May 30, 2009 8:32 AM PDT up reply actions
Can "FIRE GEREN NOW" be a new AN shirt?
I know it is forward and not witty, but it is a sentiment I haven’t heard an argument against lately.
Green and Gold Lantern Corps
Fire Geren day is better
Fans should yell fire Geren at next homestand.
Quite seriously, I was wondering if through AN,
we could get a chant going at the ballpark every night that goes, “Fire Bob Geren!” over and over and over. Every inning, every game.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I would be willing to fly out to Oakland
and support the chant if it would work. This guy is a freaking clown.
These ain't your father's A's.
by ohtobe21likehuston on May 29, 2009 8:42 PM PDT up reply actions
If Garen is a clown
What was Macha?
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
It took me a few seconds to figure out what you meant
But that is too funny.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
QOTM
emperor nobody: "can ben copeland play third will the mcgwire throwback jersey be sponsored by balco labs i think i am having non-nerve-damage related chest pains well there’s holliday’s homer for may"
Clayton Tanner. I have nothing witty to add.
by walkoff baltimore chop on May 29, 2009 10:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Question
Since I’ve followed the A’s very little this year (and what I mean by very little is by checking ESPN occasionally some days and here occasionally too), is who do the A’s hire if they fire Geren?
This is the same team that manages to make money playing in a garbage dump in West Oakland Nico.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
"Garbage dump"
is a slur that is uncalled for. Many here would agree that the Coliseum is a bad park, but you don’t come here to our blog and diss our home. That’s just rude.
“West Oakland” is simply inaccurate. The A’s don’t play in West Oakland. Your unfamiliarity with basic facts makes us less inclined to take your other arguments seriously.
Lots of names have been floated as possibilities to replace Geren. Three within the A’s system are bench coach Tye Waller, AAA manager Tony DeFrancesco, and 1B coach Todd Steverson. Two of the candidates who were considered in 2006 are potentially available, Jamie Quirk and Orel Hershiser. Former A’s player Carney Lansford also gets mentioned a lot.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
what about...
Mike Metheny?
Has he recovered enough from his concussions to handle the grind?
DOUBLE REVISED- The magical goblins that live in the Reverend Billy Lard's shower just told him that actually, nobody's gonna improve this year and everyone will be released by June except for Suzuki and Cust... Sorry, kids...
by Gaijin_Suketto on May 30, 2009 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Nico, I think this over the top
Time to breathe. So far, we know you have called out Geren, Beane and Vince whenever possible. So why do you like this team again?
More than just ANtics: http://www.louisgray.com/live/
I love the A's and always will, though frankly
I have found myself strangely bored much of the time the last two seasons. Still watch every game, though. I call it as I see it. If Geren makes a good move, I’ll say so. I still think Beane has the ability to be a very good GM, though his moves the last two years, and his decision to hire Geren, have negatively affected my view of him recently. Vince is Vince; I rarely comment on him.
But this team does not play hard or smart often enough, and the moves I describe in my post are such tactical gaffes they are not descriptive of a major league manager.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
one of the hallmarks of the a's has been an "organizational philosophy" that
taught offensive skills (strike zone control) and defensive skills similarly. has that changed in anyway?
I don't know. Under Geren the A's have seemed to shift from
“rarely running or bunting” to “running recklessly and bunting badly.”
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I'd prefer "Fire Geren before the 2006 season" for my shirt.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
Bob Geren’s ineptitude is exposed on a daily basis.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on May 29, 2009 8:36 PM PDT reply actions
I'd rather not see his ineptitude.
Or any other part exposed of him.
by ElQuesoCapitan on May 29, 2009 10:38 PM PDT up reply actions
TWSS
emperor nobody: "can ben copeland play third will the mcgwire throwback jersey be sponsored by balco labs i think i am having non-nerve-damage related chest pains well there’s holliday’s homer for may"
Clayton Tanner. I have nothing witty to add.
by walkoff baltimore chop on May 29, 2009 10:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Its 100% baseball, which involves 60% losing
and is strangely not as good as a different brand of baseball.
At least the “tr ffic” ads on Bart were a good call.
rockies fired their manager
now they are winning their game and jason marquis about to go the distance
THAT COULD BE OUR A’S GUY!!!!!!!!!
You know, the thing is
I don’t like to be too critical of every decision a manager makes that I don’t agree with. It’s too easy. I think batting Cabrera at the top of the order is a bad idea, but on the other hand the A’s don’t have other natural choices for the 1-2 spots, Cabrera is a solid veteran hitter with some speed and bat control – there is at least a way to justify that an intelligent manager might make the same decision, even if I don’t agree with it.
But there is no way an intelligent manager, who understands baseball strategy, makes any of the 3 decisions I discuss in this post. No way.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "bat control."
by sleepingcobra on May 29, 2009 9:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Is it like "Y-Control"?
These ain't your father's A's.
by ohtobe21likehuston on May 29, 2009 9:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Seriously though, Nico
Cabrera hitting in the top spot in the order is more than just a cute, goofy little oversight Geren made after he fell off his adorable pony and bumped his head.
The lead off hitter gets the most plate appearances. Cabrera has a career .320 OBP and is .280 for the season. That’s criminal – and there are better options – like Suzuki or Kennedy – who would have been explored by now by other managers. Suzuki because he’s just clearly a better hitter – and Kennedy, who is batting like 70 trillion and should be up there as long as he’s hitting at this torrential clip.
by sleepingcobra on May 29, 2009 9:15 PM PDT up reply actions
True dat - as you probably know, I'm a "Cust should bat #2" proponent
Right now I’d be going with something like:
Kennedy
Suzuki
Giambi
Holliday
Cust
Sweeney
Cabrera
Crosby
Hannahan
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Cab, Croz, and Hanny?
What have you done to the left side of the diamond.
by ElQuesoCapitan on May 29, 2009 9:30 PM PDT up reply actions
LOL, going for quantity since there's no quality
Turn one of those into Buck, I guess.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
He's injured with a strained oblique.
These ain't your father's A's.
by ohtobe21likehuston on May 29, 2009 9:58 PM PDT up reply actions
It's basically become a triangle.
emperor nobody: "can ben copeland play third will the mcgwire throwback jersey be sponsored by balco labs i think i am having non-nerve-damage related chest pains well there’s holliday’s homer for may"
Clayton Tanner. I have nothing witty to add.
by walkoff baltimore chop on May 29, 2009 10:39 PM PDT up reply actions
And Buck!
Don’t forget Buck. If he could stay relatively un-hurt and Bob Geren accidentally looked at a couple of really, really crude stats with his mom (and his magic pony) there to help explain that the funny squiggles he was looking at proved that Buck is superior to Davis in nearly every way, Buck would be just dandy in the 1 or 2 hole as well. (Bonus Fantasy: Geren’s magic pony also describes “plah-toon splitz” to him in painful detail, which show that Buck is actually just as good at hitting lefties as he is righties.)
Buck
Suzuki
Cust
Holliday
Giambi
Sweeney
Cabrera
Hannahan
Crosby
Still ugly, I know, but more fun!
by sleepingcobra on May 29, 2009 9:38 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm just assuming Kennedy is the next to get injured.
Let me reload:
Buck
Suzuki/Kennedy
Cust
Holliday
Giambi
Kennedy/Suzuki/Sweeney
Sweeney/Kennedy
Cabrera
Hannahan
WIN!
by sleepingcobra on May 29, 2009 9:41 PM PDT up reply actions
No matter how you cast the dice,
at least 5 or 6 bats out of 9 are going to be below average MLB hitters.
by scromulus on May 29, 2009 9:47 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
WHEW!
Good thing a voice of reason popped in here. I thought I was crafting a World Series lock!
Generalizing it like this: “Everyone sucks!”
Precludes this: “It’s the manager’s job to make sure the team is in the best possible position to win.”
by sleepingcobra on May 29, 2009 9:53 PM PDT up reply actions
Generalizing it like this: "Everyone sucks!"
Precludes this: "It’s the manager’s job to make sure the team is in the best possible position to win."
I disagree. If the team’s gonna lose you may as well platoon Buck and Davis in an effort to increase their value, even if it doesn’t put your team in a position to win. You may as well have your young guys practice bunting and small ball and give your young SPs a quick hook – even if it doesn’t give your team a chance to win now it might next year. And you may as well put your veterans in the heart of the line-up – it will cost you less than one win over the season and it will keep the vets willing role-models, and provide stability in a situation that is wanting for it.
I agree that Cabrera is not an ideal lead-off candidate but I disagree that Geren is a bad manager because he bats Cabrera lead off.
by scromulus on May 29, 2009 11:33 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'd only do this if
I were instructed to do it by Beane.
Hey wait – are these moves Beane’s fault?! They can’t be his fault – he’s infallible!!!!!!!!
by sleepingcobra on May 30, 2009 8:01 AM PDT up reply actions
i love your posts...
but i don’t get the travis buck can hit lefties thing.
he seems to have some fluky years, where he pounds lefties, but for the most part he’s well better against righties. his 2007 in the majors was an anomaly, while his 2008 and 2009 were terrible against lefties.
his minor leagues stats are skewed by 42 at bats at midland in 2006, when he hit 405/490/538 vs lefties. aside from that year, he shows some pretty sizable differences.
i’m not stat guru, but i don’t get it.
Somehow I don't think this is what's going to cost the A's the penant.
by scromulus on May 29, 2009 9:35 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
No, but it's costing the team learning what it means to play hard,
and it’s costing the team a chance for the manager not to become yet another impediment in an already difficult situation.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
"Learning what it means to play hard"
sounds no more or less meaningful than “benefitting from a strong veteran presence in the clubhouse.” I can think of better reasons for batting Cabrera ninth than that he’s a bad influence on the team, and given the overall unimportance of the batting order, I think its ridiculous to criticize Geren on this basis when he doesn’t even have the possibility of a good line up to begin with (and because there are so many better bases on which to criticize him).
by scromulus on May 29, 2009 11:41 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
but
Bob Geren is a nice guy gosh darnit and he wants all the players to play and if they try real hard he might give them a juice box. If the little A’s do everything Bobo says there may even be a pizza party in their future. So no more negative talk let’s all be happy that baseball super-genius bobo is the manager.
Why oh why did Beane extend Geren's contract this offseason?
Sure he plays a nice “pat you on the back for still being mediocre” type of guy. Maybe for that reason he is better suited as a bench coach. The “buddyism” in this organization is sickening. Ron Washington was on the verge of being fired last year, just a season and half into being hired as the manager of Texas. Here in Oakland, our sub .500 manager gets rewarded with an extension. It’s laughable.
I am Ray Fosse's infatuations with Clay Wood and high-definition television.
Don't Disagree with Nico, But Earl Weaver Couldn't Win With This Club
I hate the Giants, and I hate the Lakers, but when I turned on my TV an hour ago I had to choose between watching The Giants, the Lakers and the A’s. I watched the A’s for about 5 minutes and just couldn’t take it any more. Man, I remember those horrible A’s teams of my youth: Picciolo, Wayne Gross, Shooty, Edwards … those teams were awful, but it was so much more entertaining than watching the paint dry on a daily basis these days.
The season has verified the haters: Chavvy’s done, BoCro sucks, and the Harden trade was a joke. (Yes, I know Harden is on the DL again. That doesn’t mean Billy couldn’t have gotten more for him than, uh, nothing.)
I agree that with Joe Torre or Bobby Cox,
this team would not be a great team. It would, however, play better fundamental baseball, play with more intensity/urgency, and win more games, IMO.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
His decisions in that horrid Seattle series in which the A's blew leads is what did it for me
I understand if Geren was a rookie manager. I would grant him mistakes in bullpen management. lineup decisions, etc. But he is currently in season number three with the A’s and it seems that his ability to manage has gotten progressively worse.
And I’m well aware this team is not good. Any team that trots out Crosby, Hannahan, and Davis as your lower third is bound to lose two thirds of their games. It’s just the front office’s complacency in allowing these same underperformers more playing time to underperform. Why are we waiting? Something needs to be done.
I am Ray Fosse's infatuations with Clay Wood and high-definition television.
by franks a lot on May 29, 2009 8:50 PM PDT up reply actions
I’m fairly sure that the players don’t have much confidence in this guy. How do they possibly take him seriously? Our guys are out there half-assing for this clown, but I don’t blame them.
I wish they had the desire and talent
to win despite the clown…
DOUBLE REVISED- The magical goblins that live in the Reverend Billy Lard's shower just told him that actually, nobody's gonna improve this year and everyone will be released by June except for Suzuki and Cust... Sorry, kids...
by Gaijin_Suketto on May 30, 2009 1:07 AM PDT up reply actions
unless things change rapidly in the next month
geren absolutely needs to be fired, along with a major team overhaul…didn’t an article recently suggest that beane is livid about the team and is basically giving them one more month before he tears it apart? beane’s own credibility is on the line here, too. it’d be one thing if geren was managing well, and he had little talent to work with. he’s got enough talent to win at a much better rate than this, and is doing a pretty bad job managing as well. if things don’t change quickly, if beane doesn’t let him go, it will be pretty obvious that its because they’re best friends.
If it takes a month for him to be fired
than BB is truly lost in today’s baseball world. He is someone whom I admire and respect but my confidence is waning each day. I’m sure he’s a great guy but he is not fit to manage this team and it’s not even debatable.
These ain't your father's A's.
by ohtobe21likehuston on May 29, 2009 8:45 PM PDT up reply actions
i'm only saying a month
because i recall that’s what the article said about the time beane seemed willing to give the team to get going. but yeah, whenever it is that beane decides is the deadline for this club to show him something, if they are still basically doing this, geren HAS to be fired.
by guy incognito on May 29, 2009 8:47 PM PDT up reply actions
I read the article and I don't think that you can trade guys
whenver you are upset. I’m okay with Billy waiting for the best moment that will benefit the team long-term. It’s simply better to strike when the iron is semi-warm. As I said above I’m not upset with the guys who play for this team because most of them are simply not good yet. However you can fire a manager at any time and should do so once you know it needs to be done. BB has no bargaining chips when it comes to Geren. Pay the man whatever ridiculous money he has coming his way and start moving in a more positive direction.
These ain't your father's A's.
by ohtobe21likehuston on May 29, 2009 8:52 PM PDT up reply actions
I’m sorry, but he’s morphing into Al Davis with that ego while trying to play a game that everyone is already on to.
by ATLDuck on May 29, 2009 10:38 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Let me see...
This team has no:
- Identity
- Passion
- Skill at fundamentals (when was the last time we executed a bunt?)
- Consistent game day scheme
- Baseball intellect in the dugout
This all points to a very bad manager. Bob Geren should be fired. But because of his relationship with BB it aint going to happen. Shame on BB!
you mean...
“try to bunt” more than you’d like as it is
by Colorado Fan on May 30, 2009 8:38 AM PDT up reply actions
I'm okay with Geren keeping the young pitchers on a short leash.
Outman, Anderson and Braden all threw 125 IP or less last year. Its very rare for a young pitcher to go from that to 190-200 IP the next year. The pull-them-at-100 game plan seems very similar to that employed by Macha in ’05 with Blanton, who still managed to throw 200 innings.
Other than that, yes, Bob Geren is a horrible manager and I’m not sure why anyone would defend him unless they were insane or trying to provoke shit.
Geren does need to be fired and the A's need to continue rebuilding.
Geren is a poor manager. I also don’t like the way he mismanages the bullpen. He overuses 2 or 3 guys in the pen and forgets about the other 2 or 3 guys. Let’s not forget that the A’s are not a very good team right now. This team was not built to win this year.
IRONY!
All this talk of “Fire Geren Now” is counterproductive…
…no GM wants to be seen as being influenced by an internet blog. People will say, “Beane bowed to pressure from AthleticsNation.com, who were strident in their demand.”
You cannot look like you kowtow to a bunch of unpaid bloggers!!
"Losing feels worse than winning feels good." Vin Scully
by One won lost won on May 30, 2009 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions
EXTEND GEREN AGAIN NOW!!!!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Wait a second...!
You say Chris Davis is the equivalent of a pitcher batting? Then what in the heck is our Rajai Davis equivalent to?!!! Let’s look at their stats: Chris Davis….436 SLG, .253 OBP, .689 OPS, .194 AVG.. and our R. Davis….162 SLG, .225 OBP, .387 OPS, .162 AVG.
I think Geren has a “Man-Crush” on Rajai
a single A pitcher batting??
These ain't your father's A's.
by ohtobe21likehuston on May 29, 2009 8:54 PM PDT up reply actions
I think single A pitchers batting could beat rajai.
by ElQuesoCapitan on May 29, 2009 8:55 PM PDT up reply actions
Fair enough.
comparable to an athletic trainer who played some JUCO ball?
These ain't your father's A's.
by ohtobe21likehuston on May 29, 2009 8:55 PM PDT up reply actions
I think he's comparable to a
washed up little league coach with tendinitis in every limb.
by ElQuesoCapitan on May 29, 2009 8:57 PM PDT up reply actions
I think I hear Maxwell Smart's voice-
“Would you believe a t-ball player with a wiffle ball bat?”
JJ Martin
The best way to catch a knuckleball is to wait until the ball stops rolling and then pick it up. ~Bob Uecker
by JJ Martin on May 29, 2009 9:11 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
A Get Smart Reference is worth a + 1
There is no gravity - the earth just sucks.
12 HRs vs. 0 HRs
Might as well exhume the body of Kenny Lofton to play center.
I am Ray Fosse's infatuations with Clay Wood and high-definition television.
by franks a lot on May 29, 2009 8:55 PM PDT up reply actions
yes.
’twas ugly.
"It is a truth universally acknowledged that a zombie in possession of brains must be in want of more brains"--Pride and Prejudice And Zombies
by Leopold Bloom on May 29, 2009 9:07 PM PDT up reply actions
:D
Now time to go bash my head in a wall.
by ElQuesoCapitan on May 29, 2009 9:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Is firing Geren even an option?
This team, with it’s over the hill sluggers and prepubescent pitching staff, wasn’t built to win this year. Billy started this version of his rebuilding program when…last year. The preseason hype was exactly what it was…hype. They had to sell at least a few tickets, right? I think it would be tough to blame one person, even if it is the manager, for the play of this team. They are just a bunch of 1 or 2 year placeholders while the youngins develop. Let’s just hope they do actually develop…
We should expect our manager to make the best decisions
for the team to win games when it’s possible. Most of the posts have to do with his horrible decision-making during the game. Nobody expects him to “contend” with this island of misfit toys.
These ain't your father's A's.
by ohtobe21likehuston on May 29, 2009 8:58 PM PDT up reply actions
I do blame the manager, however, when I see
a batter hit a pop up and jog down to first base, then stay in the game, play the next day, and do it again. And I’ve seen that a lot – and that to me is inexcusable. When you hit a pop up, you can’t control whether it’s caught or dropped. The only thing you can control is how hard you run, and a manager’s job is to insist that his players at least do that much.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on May 29, 2009 8:59 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Fantastic point, Nico.
When the players look like they are quitting it’s because they don’t believe. If you have zero confidence in your leader than it’s time to get a new leader.
These ain't your father's A's.
by ohtobe21likehuston on May 29, 2009 9:01 PM PDT up reply actions
The contrast is drawn more starkly when one watches Kennedy.
JJ Martin
The best way to catch a knuckleball is to wait until the ball stops rolling and then pick it up. ~Bob Uecker
Kennedy plays hard no matter who he's playing for...
He has pride and he’s a samurai.
As a fan, I want 25 players who play with pride and discipline and intensity.
I can understand not liking the boss and doing a half assed job, but I just want everyone on the roster to know that when they get old and arthritic, they’re going to regret all the moments that they gave less than 100% and wonder what might have been…
DOUBLE REVISED- The magical goblins that live in the Reverend Billy Lard's shower just told him that actually, nobody's gonna improve this year and everyone will be released by June except for Suzuki and Cust... Sorry, kids...
by Gaijin_Suketto on May 30, 2009 1:12 AM PDT up reply actions
+1000
" I may not know how to tango, but I sure as hell can man dance!" -Nate Robles
by DaSwinginA's on May 29, 2009 9:01 PM PDT up reply actions
quote of the week for me.
" I may not know how to tango, but I sure as hell can man dance!" -Nate Robles
by DaSwinginA's on May 29, 2009 9:15 PM PDT up reply actions
Remember when Tejada got benched for not running out a play?
Was that Howe or Macha?
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by Raymond St. Martin (Saint) on May 30, 2009 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions
Or when BJ Upton was benched twice, last season?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
All the A's young pitchers shouldn't pitch much over 150 innings this year.
You want to limit the amount of innings that young pitchers jump up from each year to 25 innings per year. This is why the A’s should consider shuting Outman,Cahill and Anderson down for the year in early September.
O_O
KIELTY
emperor nobody: "can ben copeland play third will the mcgwire throwback jersey be sponsored by balco labs i think i am having non-nerve-damage related chest pains well there’s holliday’s homer for may"
Clayton Tanner. I have nothing witty to add.
by walkoff baltimore chop on May 29, 2009 10:42 PM PDT up reply actions
Swish and Kielty!!
Gawd I miss those two. Actually met Kielty at a non baseball function and he was gracious enough to autograph a ball that I just happened to have. Very nice guy.
by swishergirl510 on May 29, 2009 11:07 PM PDT up reply actions
Let me go grab a burger and I will be
back to read this thread – and have some relish beyond what is on my burger.
alaska A residing in Idaho.
GREAT write-up Nico, couldn't have said it better myself
I will now proceed to get drunk and bang my head against a wall. Not exactly in that order.
" I may not know how to tango, but I sure as hell can man dance!" -Nate Robles
Thanks
I don’t generally like manager-bashing, but honestly I’m just stunned by some of what I see.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I'll take your point furhter
I would like a detailed plan of what they see the offense, defense and pitching to do for this team.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Jemile Weeks hit homerun #2 tonight!
Let’s go 2011 Oakland A’s!
I am Ray Fosse's infatuations with Clay Wood and high-definition television.
Woo hoo!!!
Can he manage?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Thanks for posting it
I’m happy about the little things now.
These ain't your father's A's.
by ohtobe21likehuston on May 29, 2009 9:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Yay 2011!
I hope that by then the A’s are kicking ass and that we can laugh about things like Raji Davis playing in actual major league baseball games.
will crosby spread his legs so far apart at bat that the games will have to be rated nc-17 -- emperor nobody
giambi and gio for swisher?
If you had a lineup of 9 Jack Custs who hit(Cust career average) .239 AVG, .382 OBP, and .475 SLG, then your team would score 6.12 runs per game-totalling to 991runs a season.The 08 rangers lead the majors in runs score with 901.
I miss swish
Green and Gold Lantern Corps
by oaklandSMASH on May 29, 2009 9:48 PM PDT up reply actions
chris davis
you mean to tell me that there was a player that sucked more than Crosby today, wow! and Geren walked him… i didn’t know how bad Chris Davis sucked because I forwarded through both games on the dvr.
And as for Wash, I’m with you. Since we suck so bad, I’m pulling for Wash to make the pl’offs.
I've come to the conclusion that we should keep Geren for the rest of the season
THEN can his ass. We’re losing. We kind of really suck. We’re not going to get better. So. If we’re going lose, let’s lose big. Let’s get that first pick of the draft next year. What better way to do that than to have an idiot at the helm making decisions that will steal a loss out of the jaws of victory. Let’s trade away our chips and let rajai play every game. Let O-Cab get as many ABs as possible. Let’s lose some games!!!
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
So. If we’re going lose, let’s lose big. Let’s get that first pick of the draft next year.
We’re competing with the nationals, not an easy task.
by ElQuesoCapitan on May 29, 2009 9:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Hard to compete with a team without an “O.”
emperor nobody: "can ben copeland play third will the mcgwire throwback jersey be sponsored by balco labs i think i am having non-nerve-damage related chest pains well there’s holliday’s homer for may"
Clayton Tanner. I have nothing witty to add.
by walkoff baltimore chop on May 29, 2009 10:42 PM PDT up reply actions
When was the last time the A's were in the top half of the AL in offense?
2003? 2002?
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
We might as well get our shirts with
Atletic
by fruitattack on May 30, 2009 12:09 AM PDT up reply actions
How about shifting, subtracting and adding letters:
Apathetic
Green and Gold Lantern Corps
by oaklandSMASH on May 30, 2009 12:10 AM PDT up reply actions
Because it's poor form
to express to young players that losing is acceptable. Ever. Under any circumstances. Geren will continue to foster animosity, resentment, and a defeatist attitude. That boil needs to be lanced swiftly and painfully.
"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer
Really? How many times have I heard ...
after a tough loss, something along the lines of, “We just have to accept it and move on”? From successful players and teams? How many times have you? Many, I’m sure.
I think what you mean is that it’s poor form to express to young (or old, for that matter) players that playing as if you’ve already lost, whatever the score, whatever the difference between your team’s W-L percentage and the opposing team’s, etc., is unacceptable.
I think that’s what you mean, and I hope that’s what you mean. The literal reading of your claim is just silly, and would be disappointing from you..
by el campysino on May 29, 2009 10:00 PM PDT up reply actions
He's probably talking about intentionally dropping games for the sake of getting that #1 draft pick.
THEN can his ass. We’re losing. We kind of really suck. We’re not going to get better. So. If we’re going lose, let’s lose big. Let’s get that first pick of the draft next year. What better way to do that than to have an idiot at the helm making decisions that will steal a loss out of the jaws of victory. Let’s trade away our chips and let rajai play every game. Let O-Cab get as many ABs as possible. Let’s lose some games!!!
From that post up there.
by ElQuesoCapitan on May 29, 2009 10:04 PM PDT up reply actions
I wish I was deserving of such notable sentiment.
To be fair, you are partially correct. Playing as if you have already lost is an unpardonable sin in my opinion. The older players are a lot less likely to be lured into a siren song of defeatism. If you’ve lived very long in the hyper competitive dog-eat-dog world of pro sports, you are fully aware that if you give in to such a temptation, your days as a player are nigh to an end.
I think media reports have given us a glimpse of the clubhouse atmosphere Geren has fostered. He inspires resentment when he should be imparting confidence. His decisions are mocked by even the simplest baseball strategists. The players not only see it, they are forced to live with it. Nepotism has an ugly way of playing to the lowest common denominator. Sacking Geren sends a very strong message. That’s the message the young players need to be given, that performance matters above all else. The A’s have traditionally been a young team, and for the most part they still are, and despite being professionals, they are still prey to youthful impressions. Winning is a habit, an expectation, a culture. Geren simply doesn’t speak the language.
"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer
Let's make it clear
I’m NOT talking about throwing games. I’m NOT talking about players purposely saying f-it and giving up. I’m just saying, the team, as is, won’t win many games. But with a crappy manager, we’re much more likely to lose games that we should win, not because the players will quit. Not because they won’t actually try to win. Because the genius behind the wheel will ram a telephone pole and wonder who put that 20 feet off the street he was driving down.
Another 4 months of this is more torture for us. It won’t hurt the players anymore then they have.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
I wonder how much players really care
Seriously. And, I wonder that in all sports; not just baseball.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I realize you are not implying
that the A’s take an intentional dive for the sake of a draft pick. But I happen to be of the opinion that it would be very damaging to allow Geren to go on managing these guys as if knew what the hell he was doing. It’s one thing to have an incompetent manager in the short term, quite another when you lose confidence in the organization as a whole. He needs to go.
"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer
If you think another 4 months of this will cause more damage
than we’ve already suffered from, then yes, get rid of him now. Personally, I don’t think he has one iota of influence on these guys. The man has no credibility in the clubhouse and I think the players know it more than we do. Really the only thing that scares me is the bullpen arms. That alone should get him fired now, but I’m not sure someone hired mid-season will have enough influence to change either of these things.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
OK
I think it’s clear, now, what the dispute is.
DMOAS: The manager is incompetent, the players recognize it, but even replacing the manager won’t make much of a difference to this season. Take the season as a loss and get the resultant higher draft pick, then get rid of Geren.
alox: The manager is incompetent, the players recognize it, and not replacing the manager signals to the players that incompetence (or at least lackluster effort) is tolerated in this organization. That will have a bad effect on young players’ performances in the future more damaging to the team’s prospects than the loss of the higher draft pick DMOAS envisions would be. Get rid of Geren now.
Fair?
by el campysino on May 29, 2009 11:32 PM PDT up reply actions
I vote for alox on this one...
DOUBLE REVISED- The magical goblins that live in the Reverend Billy Lard's shower just told him that actually, nobody's gonna improve this year and everyone will be released by June except for Suzuki and Cust... Sorry, kids...
by Gaijin_Suketto on May 30, 2009 1:16 AM PDT up reply actions
I think you fairly state what I think is the argument
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
Lookout Landing
We sound just like they did last year. Strasburg was all they talked about. Funny stuff.
by swishergirl510 on May 29, 2009 11:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Our team is falling apart!
I blame the Geren Necrosis Zombie Virus!
Green and Gold Lantern Corps
by oaklandSMASH on May 29, 2009 9:57 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
Nice Zombie
That’s going into my collection of A’s pictures. Or, more accurately, going to start the collection.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
New Rebuilding Plan:
1. Fire Bob Geren
2. Get a 3Bman
3. ?????
4. Win World Series
Say something funny.
3.
Move to San Jose?
Let’s go SAN JO!! clap, clap, clap-clap-clap
Green and Gold Lantern Corps
by oaklandSMASH on May 29, 2009 10:50 PM PDT up reply actions
After watching the evisceration today, I didn't feel
like writing or reading any comments on AN.
The anguish plopped into this blog was theraputic for me. I am surprised.
54-108? Will that be the year-end record?
"Losing feels worse than winning feels good." Vin Scully
by One won lost won on May 29, 2009 10:36 PM PDT reply actions
Random Question
Why isn’t the A’s record posted anywhere on AN?
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Because too many kittens died when we did have it up.
by ElQuesoCapitan on May 29, 2009 10:40 PM PDT up reply actions
QOTM
DOUBLE REVISED- The magical goblins that live in the Reverend Billy Lard's shower just told him that actually, nobody's gonna improve this year and everyone will be released by June except for Suzuki and Cust... Sorry, kids...
by Gaijin_Suketto on May 30, 2009 1:17 AM PDT up reply actions
We haven't yet sunk
to that level of masochism. We’re getting there though.
"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer
Ah
Been there done that. Just went through a brutal day in day out season as a Kings fan. Don’t think I can do it with the A’s.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Here is a great example of Geren not know what he's talking about
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=290529213
What a great effort, a great job," A’s manager Bob Geren said. “He gave up two hits through six innings with a lot of strikeouts. Even that pitch he threw to Byrd wasn’t a terrible pitch.”
The slider’s been my strikeout pitch," Outman said. “It was good for me today ’til the one bad one to Byrd. It was a bad pitch, a hanging slider, and he was ready for it.”
Now, Outman pitched fantastic and deserved better but who do you believe on that one bad pitch. Geren or Outman being honest and saying he made a mistake?
Geren is too positive and too stupid. Like I said, Outman has been really good and is entitled to a bad pitch here and there as they all do but Geren calling that a good pitch when Outman said otherwise shows what an arse crawling fleck of vomit he is.
Take his cup of instant optimisim and shove it.
by ElQuesoCapitan on May 29, 2009 10:44 PM PDT up reply actions
It also goes against the move Geren himself made,
taking Outman from the game earlier than some managers would have.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Contrast that with the Rangers, who have the best record in the AL
Nolan Ryan said clearly before spring training, “Our pitchers need to get deeper into games and they need to start training, now, to be ready to do so.” 101 pitches is not a lot at the end of May. And as of today, I believe Texas leads the league in 6+ inning starts, as well as in winning percentage.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
That brings up an interesting question unrelated to the Rangers
and that is the actual correlation between pitch count and health, as compared to conditioning, “high stress” (especially high pitch count) innings, genetics, and so on. Matt Harrison is hurt right now, but I don’t attribute it to the Rangers’ new philosophy – but you could. Why was Gio’s arm sore in spring training? Why is Scott Feldman ok now? Don’t know.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
two thoughts...
1.) we seem to care a lot about the pitch counts for outman, anderson and cahill. why not the same about bailey? all the data i’ve seen says that the real damage is done in pitches per inning, not total pitches or total innings.
2.) what works for nolan ryan may not work for other pitchers. everybody’s arms are different.
by stm72 on May 30, 2009 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, but the A's have had Duchscherer, Devine and Gio on the shelf,
the Angels Lackey and Santana, the Blue Jays Romero and Litsch, and so on. Hard to pinpoint a generalized “why.”
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Yes, which of course indicates the fickleness and unpredictability of what actually causes pitching injuries
Historically though, there has been a strong correlation between a large pitching workload and arm injuries.
My point is there are numerous factors that have caused Texas’s success so far. Attributing Texas’s early success to Nolan Ryan’s use of his pitchers, which may or may not be beneficial, is rather premature.
I'd argue it a bit differently
I’d say that attributing Texas’s early success to Nolan Ryan’s use of his pitchers is probably very accurate – but that whether in the long run it will prove beneficial or destructive is an important, still unanswered question.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Did Nolan Ryan lower Milwoods BAPIP 100 pts?
or Scott Feldmen’s 60 pts? Every Rangers starter’s rest of the year ZIPs projections is significantly higher than how they are currently pitching. Luck I think would be far more culpable than Nolan Ryan. Do you disagree?
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on May 30, 2009 4:05 PM PDT up reply actions
< crickets >
FREE KRAUT
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones."
-BB 07/27/05
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on May 30, 2009 7:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Thus are the limitations of predictive statistics.
You can’t say the performance of Millwood and Feldman is entirely due to luck just because they are outperforming projections. Personally, I think health has more to do with Millwood’s resurgance than Nolan Ryan does, but it’s not luck just because ZIPs says so.
BABIP isn’t entirely driven by luck, either. A pitcher has some control over driving that down year over year, if they put pitches in the strike zone that are harder to hit.
Is part of it luck? Sure. But to say it’s all luck in both cases is just as disingenuous as saying it’s all the work of Nolan Ryan.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
And yet you missed the point completely.
Nico made another ridiculous statement:
I’d say that attributing Texas’s early success to Nolan Ryan’s use of his pitchers is probably very accurate
Which makes no sense. Why would old ass pitchers like Kevin Millwood start magically pitching better than they have for years because Nolan Ryan said that he was going to ignore pitch counts for minor leaguers? If it was mereley the effect of Ryan why wouldn’t the improvement been last year when Ryan was first around? Why do the projection systems all suggest that luck is playing a huge role in the Ranger’s sucess pitching if it is really just the aura of Nolan Ryan? Why would anyone think that a change in the President of Baseball operations would improve static talent on the field? Why would anyone go so far to say that it is very accurate to say that Nolan Ryan is responsible.
Maybe they are pitching better. I didn’t make the arguement that they weren’t. I did however state that luck is way more likely to be the cause of fluke seasons than Nolan Ryan.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on May 30, 2009 8:04 PM PDT up reply actions
And you didn't read my response.
Which clearly illustrated that I considered Nico’s perspective on the subject, and offered my own accordingly, which differed substantially from it.
Honestly, if you’re just interested in trolling Nico here, you ought to stay over at Free Kraut. You’re too emotional to see it right now, but you’re being just as pedantic about this silly schism as he is.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Just so you understand what I was getting at, jeepers,
I think that Texas is benefiting, in the short term, from conditioning their starting pitchers to go longer and as a result not having to use their bullpen so much – they do lead the league in 6+ IP starts (interestingly, as of last weekend each division leader was also leading its division in 6+ IP starts).
This may well backfire long-term, we’ll see. But in the short term, it really does help a team overall when its pitchers get deeper into games and after 1/4 of a season it is paying off.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
What I think would prove your point is not what you are arguing.
What would prove your point is if you took the Rangers starts. Then looked at performance after 105 pitches. Then compared that to a replacement level reliever. If that was a significant number that would go farther toward proving your theory (though the possibility of luck would still be present).
Otherwise having a lot of ball get hit at people, and texas’ vastly better defense this year can explain a lot of outs that allow a pitcher to work deeper into ballgames without throwing more pitches.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on May 31, 2009 12:22 AM PDT up reply actions
I did read your response...
Not once did I say that it must be luck because ZIPs said so. Not once did I say that BAPIP isn’t partially controlled by pitchers.
Let me quote myself
Maybe they are pitching better. I didn’t make the arguement that they weren’t. I did however state that luck is way more likely to be the cause of fluke seasons than Nolan Ryan.And now let me quote you:
Is part of it luck? Sure
Which doesn’t fit with Nico’s explanation: Nolan Ryan’s use of pitchers
Again the only thing I was arguing was that two key statistics show the rangers benefiting from luck. Therefore I believe that the it is more likely (not certainly) luck than Nolan Ryan that was the result of improved outcomes.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on May 31, 2009 12:19 AM PDT up reply actions
I wish people had as much blind faith in my predictions
as they do in ZIPs.
If I predict Rangers pitching will be so-so and then it turns out to be pretty good, people say, “Iglew was wrong”. If ZIPs predicts Rangers pitching will be so-so and then it turns out to be pretty good, people say, “key statistics show the rangers benefiting from luck.”
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
I was more referring to BAPIP
but if you want i can have blind faith in IGLEWs provided you come up with an acronym worthy of blind faith and assure me that at least one regression is involved in every one of your projections :-P
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on May 31, 2009 1:06 AM PDT up reply actions
Lowered BABIP
might have something to do with their #1 ranked defense. Andrus, Kinsler and Davis are all the #1 defender at their respective positions so far. Nelson Cruz is a pretty awesome RF, David Murphy is a pretty awesome LF, and Josh Hamilton is a decent CF this year.
"Hustle doesn't cost a dime and it looks good." - Pete Rose as Channeled by Marcus Lemon
Yes...
And I wrote that:
Otherwise having a lot of balls get hit at people, and texas’ vastly better defense this year can explain a lot of outs that allow a pitcher to work deeper into ballgames without throwing more pitches.
But I don’t see that as being a byproduct of Nolan Ryan.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on May 31, 2009 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions
Minor bitch compared to other stuff, just today
but why bring Zigler in for one batter in the 8th, for the last out of that inning? If the A’s tie or get the lead, bring on a closer. But the previous pitcher was doing fine – no need to use Z’s arm up then.
(And we knew Casilla was going to Fuck it up too, I suppose.)
Oh, and reviewing the box, I see he brought a reliever in to game one for one batter too.
but naturally after the horse had left the barn.
by MobiusKlein on May 29, 2009 10:53 PM PDT up reply actions
Another lowlight
How ‘bout playing a catcher in game 2 that really should have been placed on the DL about a week ago? Seriously, Powell can’t run. At all.
I needed a team so I wouldn’t turn into one of the eighty million pink hat-wearing Bud Light-drinking mulleted idiots at Fenway.
Didn't want to burn out Zooks
The second game was the game that we were destined to lose. The first was the one we had a shot for.
Yeah - you don't catch a guy both ends of a double-header
Maybe you DL Powell and call up Munson, but given the roster I would have started Powell too.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I 100% agree with Nico here.
As a former catcher whose knees got fucked up by high school coaches, you do not let your catchers catch both games of a double header. Period. Three hours of squatting on your knees is terrible for your body.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on May 31, 2009 12:24 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah
The real answer is that Powell should be on the DL. Powell’s knees already look like a Jackson Pollack painting, and they’re still making him catch on a bad leg?
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Like the Jackson Pollack reference...
Powell should be on the DL but who do you want designated for assignment at this point? I mean we’ve gone through all of our roster filler.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on May 31, 2009 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions
Rajai Davis would be fine, at this point.
He’s great to have on a team for which wins count, as a 25th man for defense and baserunning. It really doesn’t matter at this point, so may as well get rid of him.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Oh yeah some how in my mind i already DFAed him.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on May 31, 2009 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Another Gem from Geren from Oaklandathletics.com
“It’s a letdown,” Geren said of losing even more ground to the Rangers while falling to 18-28. “We’ve won a lot of ballgames lately. We’ve been playing pretty good.”
emperor nobody: "can ben copeland play third will the mcgwire throwback jersey be sponsored by balco labs i think i am having non-nerve-damage related chest pains well there’s holliday’s homer for may"
Clayton Tanner. I have nothing witty to add.
by walkoff baltimore chop on May 29, 2009 11:05 PM PDT up reply actions
I guess for these guys a few in a row does count as "a lot"
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
Okay that does it!!! Fire Him NOW!!! A Bunch of games?!?!?!
What world is he living in? 3-5 in the last 8?
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by Raymond St. Martin (Saint) on May 30, 2009 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Always Look On The Bright Side
At least we didn’t get an expensive Furcal this offseason. Look at his numbers for the first 41 games: .240/.304/.303 … that is an OPS of .607!
"I managed a team that was so bad we considered a 2-0 count on the batter a rally." - Rich Donnelly, minor league manager
I'm not really one to hop on the "Fire The Manager" bandwagon...
and, I’m not so sure that managers make all that much difference in the ultimate outcome of a 162-game season, but I so damn sick and tired of seeing shit like today, I’m ready to hop on the wagon… bandwagon, that is… because I couldn’t stand watching this team if I were “on the wagon.”
"I’m actually a disgrace to myself right now." - Sean Gallagher (quoting me after a night out on the town)
A good manager might be good for 2 or 3 wins a season,
but a bad manager can cost you 15 with bad strategic decisions and improper pitching changes.
DOUBLE REVISED- The magical goblins that live in the Reverend Billy Lard's shower just told him that actually, nobody's gonna improve this year and everyone will be released by June except for Suzuki and Cust... Sorry, kids...
by Gaijin_Suketto on May 30, 2009 1:19 AM PDT up reply actions
so, this team might well be above .500 and in second place...
if only they didn’t have a bad manager? Where’s Billy Martin when you need him?
"I’m actually a disgrace to myself right now." - Sean Gallagher (quoting me after a night out on the town)
by FoolshGame22 on May 30, 2009 2:23 AM PDT up reply actions
How about NOT being a leader of men?
That is underrated!!! How many games can an impish turd cost you?
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by Raymond St. Martin (Saint) on May 30, 2009 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions
maybe on a college team or HS team
a manager is very important. But I will agree, a good manager and strategy will net you 3-4 games versus a bad manager. I do not think you need a “leader of men” as the manager. Players have their agents, etc. as opposed to HS players. ML ballplayers have a lot of away time off, compared to an army officer and his men.
How do you lead people making 4x, 5x your salary? And a manager doesn’t “lead by example” (i.e. hit, pitch, or field).
"Losing feels worse than winning feels good." Vin Scully
by One won lost won on May 30, 2009 2:15 PM PDT up reply actions
Team loyalty...
..is a measure of loving colors. Really. Anymore.
Beane is the only thing this club has given us to hang our hat on. A revolving door of players, coaches, managers. A nearly unrecognizable team from year to year. Even the city, the place is interchangeable. I suppose that is why criticism of Beane is so emotional. He is the only constant through so much change.
by Chilango on May 29, 2009 11:45 PM PDT reply actions
for it's one, two, three
You don’t see this in the boxscore, but this is how I feel the meta-at-bat of this season and really the last 3 seasons have gone for this franchise, surely one of the most deeply troubled and dysfunctional in all of professional sports, but also one possessed of a limitless potential and capacity for self-reinvention:
Strike one: The Moneyball era/ethos are over, and really have been since 2003, or 2004 when Boston broke their curse with a Frankenstein version of the philosophy that might be termed Lots-of-Moneyball. 2006 was an anomaly caused by a convergence of new ownership wanting the team to be spiffy for the move it thought it had lined up to Fremont, plus a one-season curse some witch must have put on the Seattle Mariners for us, plus a very large man who swings a hunk of rebar in the on-deck circle, who wasn’t quite ready to hang up the spikes. When that deal fell through, we started our journey into Hell.
This idea that the Moneyball, more-for-less thing is past its shelf-date seems so for a multitude of reasons, chiefly the in-game, take-a-thousand-pitches-and-swing-once-a-week approach that has become a horrifying caricature of itself and led other teams to pound the zone on first- & second-pitches so that we are perennially in an 0-2 hole and begin to swing so defensively we make mediocre pitchers look like Greg Maddux. Yet other teams, like the Red Sox, have adopted and perfected the patience-crazy approach to great effect, largely but not entirely because they have had the resources to pay for more depth at more positions than we have had… you could say that this is a kind of have-it-both-ways kind of hybrid, the high revenue team doing the Moneyball/lots-of-money-ball combo, but it is what it is, and when the no-frills version is implemented dogmatically for philosophy’s sake like it’s become in Oakland, it serves to emphasize the most dreadfully boring aspects of the game so no one would come see you even if you scored ten runs an inning, because they come to see the wood meet the ball and all they get here is walk-walk-groundout, a soft single and a hit-by-pitch if they’re lucky. Unless you can find a way to market excessive foul territory as an entertainment option to be reckoned with, than we are pretty much up Shooty’s Creek without a paddle for the duration, my friends, so break out the platforms and the pet rock and get used to 1979 for a while
Strike two: You can’t succeed when you actively show contempt for your own fans and the facility and city in which you play. When you run ads featuring players who may never play again, and yet more ads (“The A’s Are Missing” billboards) that do more to undercut your product than if Rajai Davis were to physically smoke rocks in center field, and when you remove the word “Oakland” from the tarp you instituted to make it look like your wretched, dreadfully dull product is attracting any discernible blip of attendance, you don’t really gain much credibility with the people you claim to want to serve and the fan base you claim to want to grow. In fact, you make it seem like if you were to get to move to SJ and set up your dream facility, IDs would be checked at the door and anyone with a median household income under $500,000 would be turned away at the gates.
That link to the Ray Ratto column said it best a few days ago, where he said words to the effect that every move makes these people look like feckless carpetbaggers with the public relations skills of Rupert Pupkin, so there’s no need to belabor it anymore. What’s lacking is creativity, simple human investment in a creative process the content of which is yet-to-be-determined, and you’re just not going to get that kind of ideation-to-innovation from people who don’t want to be where they are (and therefore cannot act in good faith towards their current circumstances and environment), it just leads to a logjam in their heads because they can’t get what they want (San Jose, at least not right away) and the resentment they (ownership) now clearly feel toward the situation cannot lead anywhere fun, or good, or anywhere that leads to fundamental values of baseball as a kind of sacred ground (not to be pushed around a map like a poker chip on a table) being asserted.
Strike three: Simple conditioning, and the ability to demonstrate that this team isn’t the best in the biz at ruining players’ health.
This may seem part of ownership or management and I suppose it is, but the implications of it spread so far and impact the whole Gestalt of the franchise and its future ability to attract good players, that it has to be called a strike of its own by now, I’m afraid. There is simply no other team that has 4 guys helped off a field in one week, much less one game… not any team in any sport. Additionally, and perhaps more damningly, there is simply no franchise more transparent and contemptuous about the outright lies it tells the media about exactly what each specific injury is about. I mean, I am a green-and-gold-colored-glasses guy in my heart, but when they come on and tell you that Mark Ellis, a player who just went through a serious shoulder surgery in the offseason, is on the 60-day DL with that old standby “calf tightness,” it’s a little hard to swallow and to be honest it begins to sound like the old Communist press releases from the Soviet Union’s “Tass” news agency, where Glorious Victory was always one bread-line away. Bynow, players around MLB must be aware that whatever deal they are going to get from us, they are going to end up spending a good chunk of the largesse on medical bills, so I’d speculate that our reputation may be preceding us in this area and maybe preventing talented guys from actively desiring to come here to play.
Well, what else is there to say? That’s 3 strikes, perhaps among many, that have us grabbing the pine whilst the rest of the West has a chance, sad to say. Is it basketball season yet? Oh wait, that team, with a defense designed to allow the other team to score 150 points a night, sucks even worse than the A’s, if that’s even possible at this point.
Hey, I just bought the team from Lew Wolff... who wants to play third?
by emperor nobody on May 30, 2009 1:23 AM PDT reply actions 5 recs
I agree with much of this (unfortunately)
Interleague Play: Celebrating Thirteen Seasons of Suck
by GreenNGoldSooner on May 30, 2009 6:52 AM PDT up reply actions
short and to the point
They're called RUNS for a reason.
The Dubs sucking
Is never a problem I have.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Interesting
There are still plenty of misconceptions about what Moneyball was about but you are right in that they are still trying to achieve high OBP. When was the last first pitch swinging hitter kept around here for several years? It really does seem as if our guys put ourselves in 0-2 holes quite often and miss THE pitch to drive. No data to support just seems to be true.
These ain't your father's A's.
by ohtobe21likehuston on May 30, 2009 3:58 PM PDT up reply actions
I dont want to be kicked of AN but.....
The A’s are garbage. Im a born A’s fan and every time the A’s lose it ruins my night. I get depressed and pissed off cause of whats going on. Bob hit the road. Billy go work in a high market atmosphere maybe you will get to the WS. Im so sick of being in a bad mood because of the A’s its sooooo stupid. I Grew up in Santa Rosa and have been living in Southern Orange County for about 10 years, and it sucks listening to all these Slegna Fans getting in my face. DOOOO SOMETHING PLEASE!!!!!!!!
"Bring back Swish."
by Swell on May 30, 2009 1:52 AM PDT reply actions
My sig phrase
sez it all….
"Losing feels worse than winning feels good." Vin Scully
by One won lost won on May 30, 2009 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions
P.S.
I love how we can all vent on this website but it’s really not going to solve anything.
I Love A’s fans more than the A’s.
"Bring back Swish."
by Swell on May 30, 2009 1:55 AM PDT reply actions
Walking Davis wasn't a bad decision
Struggling or not, Chris Davis hitting against Edgar Gonzalez with runners on base is not an ideal situation for the A’s. It was only two games ago that Davis went deep twice (not something pitchers tend to do), and Gonzalez is hittable, to say the least. Plus, they walked Davis to get to Teagarden, he of the 56 ops+ and equally horrendous contact rate, but without the power. It didn’t work out, but the odds were with Geren on that one.
I’m happy if Geren gets fired, for his mishandling of Buck if nothing else, but he’s done way dumber things.
by AgitationStation on May 30, 2009 3:22 AM PDT reply actions
Intentionally walking pretty much anyone there is a poor decision
It drives up the expected run outcome of the situation, in the first inning.
would like to see the math on that one
factoring in that Chris Davis feasted on minor league pitching (hi Edgar) and Teagarden hit .211 between AA and AAA last year. Sadly, I don’t think the formula is going to cover that one.
by AgitationStation on May 30, 2009 4:22 AM PDT up reply actions
if that comment read as condescending
that’s not what I was intending.
by AgitationStation on May 30, 2009 4:30 AM PDT up reply actions
The Internet is a rude conveyance
often harshness comes out when we mean nothing of the sort.
"Losing feels worse than winning feels good." Vin Scully
by One won lost won on May 30, 2009 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Good point.
2009 OPS vs. RHP:
Davis: .746
Teagarden .627
Some people seem want to blame Geren at the expense of acknowledging that the A’s are a not-so-good ball club. I don’t think Geren is a great manager, so I really wouldn’t mind except this fanpost is so emotional and one-sided, and is based on hyperbole more than concrete observations (Davis does not hit like a pitcher, for one).
A number of people have actually suggested that the A’s are losing because Geren is too stupid to manage. I guess the implication that we somehow have better access to better baseball information (as if Geren has never looked at Buck/Rajai’s splits) than the manager of our team makes people feel better about the situation. I really think A’s fans suffer from an accute feeling of uniqueness: call it smugness, entitlement, or exceptionalism if you want. They really seem to believe that their team was preordained, by destiny or greatness, to a different fate than the other 29 teams in baseball.
You do NOT intentionally load the base sin teh first inning:
Period!!!
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by Raymond St. Martin (Saint) on May 30, 2009 1:10 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm certain they were looking DP
slow guy at the plate, maybe a 6-2-3 dp.
I’d load ’em. I think there is room for argument.
No absolutes. Nope.
"Losing feels worse than winning feels good." Vin Scully
by One won lost won on May 30, 2009 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions
That's nice. There were two out.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Then go for a triple play
don’t you know, triple play to end the inning when there is two outs already means they start with 1 out the next inning.
Right?
Or maybe a quadruple play too
Ohhhhhhhh
Quadruple Play’s. I think the A’s need to turn more of those.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
HEY!
I wasn’t watching. This 2009 team is unwatchable.
Of course I lost track of the outs.
Two outs does make it pretty absurd. First inning, the pitcher isn’t exactly “tired”. Can’t he avoid a “mistake pitch” to Davis in the first?? The ability to “pitch around” and let the player strike himself out, or walk?
"Losing feels worse than winning feels good." Vin Scully
by One won lost won on May 31, 2009 9:14 PM PDT up reply actions
I was in the Dallas Metroplex yesterday but I didn't go to the games.
My son was celebrating his birthday at Great Wolf Lodge in Grapevine. And it didn’t even seriously dawn on me to attend the games. I’m the one baseball freak in the family, and getting to Arlington would have involved some seriously complicated family politics. But just as importantly, the result of those seriously complicated family politics would, predictably, have been an expensive afternoon of emotional pain.
As has been said countless times on this and other threads: we don’t expect to win every year. We do expect that the product on the field will be worth watching. And right now it isn’t.
Interleague Play: Celebrating Thirteen Seasons of Suck
by GreenNGoldSooner on May 30, 2009 5:05 AM PDT reply actions
Geren's stated reason for walking Davis was stupid
“We had a guy who has 12 home runs and two in the last week versus a guy with 40 at-bats that doesn’t play that often,” Geren said.Davis’s home runs were completely irrelevant in that situation, and Geren should not have been considering that stat at all. A home run scores three, but a simple base hit scores two, and both likely cost you the game. The idea was to get the damn third out the best way possible.
Most managers overuse the IBB with runners on second and third. They like to get the platoon matchup advantage, but they seem to consistently underrate the huge advantage hitters gain when the pitcher has to pitch to them. Gonzalez didn’t exactly have terrific command, and forcing him to pitch without the safety net of an open base did him no favors.
That’s without getting into consideration of the pressure Davis was under, being desperate not to strike out for the fifth consecutive at bat in front of the increasingly annoyed home fans and obviously not having any reason to feel confident of his ability to make contact. There is also the more minor but not meaningless consideration that you’d like to have the light-hitting Teagarden leading off the next inning; putting people on base on purpose moves you that much closer to the nastier parts of the Texas order.
I’m also not fond of Geren’s consistent overvaluation of experience relative to talent, both in his handling of A’s players’ roles and in his comment above where he fears the guy he’s familiar with more than the “guy with 40 at-bats,” but I’ve ranted enough.
by Faust on May 30, 2009 6:08 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
You forgot two key facts to truely emphasize the idiocity of his statement.
1) it’s the FIRST inning
2) Davis is NOT Barry Bonds.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
True, of course
Your “FIRST inning” comment reminds me of Faust’s Least Favorite Baseball Tactic in the Whole World, one that every damn manager seems to resort to at least once: Your leadoff hitter in the first inning doubles, and your number two guy squares around to bunt.
In the FIRST INNING! With zero indication that the game will develop as a pitcher’s duel rather than a 10-9 affair. What a manager is saying with that strategy is, “Some of my best hitters are coming up – the guys I placed 2-3-4 in my lineup – but I don’t think any of those guys will get a hit, so I’m basing my strategy on giving up two outs to get a run. A single run, of course, since my strategy almost certainly precludes getting multiple runs in the inning.”
It’s a strategy that only marginally increases the chances of scoring that runner (if it increases them at all – I’m too lazy to look it up right now – but fans and managers alike really tend to overestimate how easy and “automatic” it is to get runners in from third base with less than 2 out), while almost guaranteeing that an inning that starts out with the big head start of a leadoff double maxes out at one run.
Anyway, that’s a tactic that tends to make me want to tear out my hair, commit suicide and homicide (not necessarily in that order), and long for universal annihilation.
by Faust on May 30, 2009 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed
There’s a time and place for both moves. That time is to end the game AT the end of the game. Never to start the game.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
Well analyzed, Faust
Part of the many reasons walking Branyan in Seattle was so dumb are also covered by the points in your first paragraph.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
not a huge advantage
Last year across mlb, with men on second and third, players as a whole hit .295/.431/.431. With the bases loaded, players hit .280/.321/.443. In 2007, it was .293/.426/.460 to .291/.325/.462. Obviously, the walk rate skews the obp, and players hit for more power with the bases full, but taking walks out of it, players hitting with the bases full don’t make less outs.
When you put it the way you did, I agree that it probably wasn’t smart of Geren to fear just the home run, but, the A’s were screwed if either player got a hit. Who’s more likely to make an out here? I have a hard time believing it’s not the part time catcher who hit .211 in 300 at bats in the minors last year (something I’m sure Geren was well aware of.)
by AgitationStation on May 30, 2009 7:28 AM PDT reply actions
I'm actually quite surprised by your numbers
I was going from memory, and while I knew that of course OBP went way down with the bases loaded, I also thought I remembered that BA and SLG went significantly upward. Which is what you’d expect.
Where did you get those numbers, by the way?
Can not watch this team
with Geren as the manager. It’s just a complete joke. At least now the Royals are reverting back to what they are supposed to be, so at least I don’t have to hear about that anymore. Rooting for Texas, Brewers (and Macha), and the A’s to get the number one draft spot. If we’re going to be a joke on the field, might as well make it worth something.
Might as well Jump! - Van Halen
I think they're unwatchable with any manager
He’s not hitting, or pitching.
I don’t care about the dugout shots on television. I can look away.
But I watch to see the players, and they are unwatchable, in sum.
Like Holliday….seldom delivers with men on, score tied…seldom.
…but down 6-3, no one on….double!!
then stranded by his mates. Unwatchable after 30 attempts to see the “fun side” of the Oakland A’.s
"Losing feels worse than winning feels good." Vin Scully
by One won lost won on May 30, 2009 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions
That is frustrating but completely based on chance whether a guy
hits with runners on or not. Do you believe in Marco Scutaro more than Bill James?
These ain't your father's A's.
by ohtobe21likehuston on May 30, 2009 3:48 PM PDT up reply actions
No not completely based on chance
If you’re leading 8-3 in the 8th, you might bring in your “Russ Springer” from the bullpen to get some work. That’s when Holliday doubles off a less-than-stellar reliever. If it’s a 2-0 ballgame in the 8th, they bring in a much more accomplished reliever. So it’s not completely based on “chance” as to the results of the match-ups.
"Losing feels worse than winning feels good." Vin Scully
by One won lost won on May 30, 2009 10:58 PM PDT up reply actions
At least then we'll have an entire outfield that can't hit.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
why should he?
"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball
Nico I am starting to think that the A's
Are tanking on purpose so they can leave town and no one will care
Thank you Al Davis for Michael Crabtree!!!!!
Exactly. Just like the Indians in the movie "Major League."
by 33SwisherSweet on May 30, 2009 11:41 AM PDT up reply actions
I called that in 2007:
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by Raymond St. Martin (Saint) on May 30, 2009 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm just laughing at Duchscherer having a setback on his recovery
Never would’ve seen THAT one coming.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
I think he saw the way this team has been playing and Geren's managing
and went “ow, oh, my, um… ah… uh, um… my back!”.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
by DMOAS on May 30, 2009 9:26 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
QOTM
emperor nobody: "can ben copeland play third will the mcgwire throwback jersey be sponsored by balco labs i think i am having non-nerve-damage related chest pains well there’s holliday’s homer for may"
Clayton Tanner. I have nothing witty to add.
by walkoff baltimore chop on May 31, 2009 1:31 AM PDT up reply actions
When I pick up the Chronicle and read a quote from Edgar Gonzalez
explaining the intentional walk with, “I have to do everything the manager says,” it becomes obvious that even the players realize how dumb these decisions are.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Someone really
needs to create an outfield sign describing our disgust. “Fire Geren Now!” might work, but I’d hope for something better. I’m all for a chat too.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
How About:
Hit the Road Bob!!!
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by Raymond St. Martin (Saint) on May 30, 2009 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions
Billy would be accused of
succumbing to the pressure of a mere outfield sign.
I think all this “Fire Geren” talk is counterproductive.
I think if AN merely “snarked” at the Athletics, like they were some neighbor kid screwing up his Dad’s car, and you “snark” then the father may take action. But if you yell at the kid, the Dad comes to his blood’s defense, and allows it to continue.
We should just lay off Geren, and let other GMs tell Billy, “Uh, that’s enough, Billy”.
He doesn’t want to bend to the grandstanders yelling. Who would?
"Losing feels worse than winning feels good." Vin Scully
by One won lost won on May 30, 2009 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions
You mean people read this crap?
I should probably write sober more often.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
If you did that
We wouldn’t have permission to call Geren a dolt.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
there's a phrase that i live my life by...
anything worth doing is worth doing well and worth doing while drunk.
Whatever Beane does, he'll do it for his own reasons, regardless
But that doesn’t mean we can’t nor shouldn’t make a statement of displeasure. Is it going to change anything on the field, no. Does it release stress by not holding in our displeasure, yes.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
You know I'm just
tossin’ some shit out there for contrarian effect.
Kind of “gallows humor” as it were.
"Losing feels worse than winning feels good." Vin Scully
by One won lost won on May 30, 2009 11:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Excuse me while I go hurl angry expletives to no one in particular.
emperor nobody: "can ben copeland play third will the mcgwire throwback jersey be sponsored by balco labs i think i am having non-nerve-damage related chest pains well there’s holliday’s homer for may"
Clayton Tanner. I have nothing witty to add.
by walkoff baltimore chop on May 30, 2009 9:54 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Forget Chris Davis...
You should almost never intentionally walk the bases loaded in the first inning with two outs! Maybe for Pujols, A-rod, Barry bonds in his prime. But there are two outs; even for a great hitter, you have a 70% chance that they won’t drive in a run (assuming no errors)
Nico made this point earlier with the IBB in Seattle but Geren essentially increased the chances of an RBI in that situation from 19% (Davis’ AVG) to 35% (Teagrden’s OBP). Not to mention more runners on base, increasing pitch count, additional pressure of pitching with bases loaded. That decision was absolutely moronic.
Not to mention that independent of who the hitters were,
you are playing in a hitters park where big innings are common and where doubles can more easily be found by great, good, average, and bad hitters alike. So you’ve gone from a situation where a walk scores nobody and a double scores 2 to a situation where a walk scores 1 and a double scores 3. All to avoid pitching to a hitter who has failed even to make contact in 2/3 of his most recent 33 ABs.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
when a team is losing
….all decisions start looking bad, and players aren’t happy. I wouldn’t put too much stock in Edgar Martinez’s comment.
Most folks on AN have been around long enough to understand how easy it is to criticize in-game management. How would we be feeling if Gonzalez had gotten out of the inning? We wouldn’t be praising Geren, but we wouldn’t be condemning him either. Geren has statistical evaluations on hand that we don’t know about, hunches in how one batter might fare versus another. In toto, you can look at over-managing or under-managing and see flaws, but criticizing a particular decision becomes easy when the decision doesn’t work, and many of those decisions don’t work. My own particular objection concerns Geren’s inability to see when a relief pitcher goes south - he’s slow to put someone in the doghouse and plays them game after game after game when it’s obvious they need to be mop-up guys til they get their shit together (i.e. Springer, Casilla).
What disgusts me about Geren is something else…the team plays with no interest or passion and the team’s fundamentals are missing. As Nico points out, watching Adam Kennedy is an absolute joy, and points out what’s wrong with the rest of the A’s (granted, it’s always a joy to watch one of your players batting .400, but still…).
Here’s the thing: You can’t fire the players, but you can fire the manager. And eventually most managers need to get replaced in order to light a fire under the team (Joe Torre in NY is the most obvious exception to that idea: he was perfect for the environment). Even Mike Scioscia, arguably the best manager in baseball, will eventually need to get canned. It’s part of the framework of the game. Right now, whether you blame Geren or not, the A’s need a change, badly.
Bump Geren upstairs and give him a gold star and a watch.
I think you mean Edgar Gonzalez ;-)
Either way, Geren needs to go. The team does not look like they’re really into the games as a whole and a lot of that can go back to the manager. I’m not surprised, especially if his low-key, everything’s great approach in interviews carries over to how he handles the team.
When you’re one of two teams in the bigs with a winning percentage under .400, no, things are not great.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
I said Gonzalez further down but didn't reread my post closely enough.
I kinda wish we had Edgar Martinez on the team. Or at least Edgar Martinez in his prime.
I do want to point out that I commented in the game thread BEFORE Teagarden's at bat
about how absurdly dumb the IBB was. Had Teagarden struck out, I still would have used the decision as an example of managing that does not reflect major league level intelligence.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
any individual decision is kind of a hunch, based on a variety of data points
…and some of them seem counter-intuitive. The problem is when your hunches all go bad. Then you have to stop relying on your gut and go with a more reality-based mind-set.
What if Davis had hit a home run? Would you be willing NOT to second-guess Geren?
Just saying.
Totally - had Davis HRed, I would have backed Geren 100%,
because to me the only intelligent decision to be made there was to pitch to him.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I wouldn't second-guess him necessarily
What seems to be a hunch sometimes is intuition, which works unconsciously. It would be possible, for instance, if the strategy had worked, to argue that Geren was making the decision based on something he’d seen in the way Davis was approaching the plate, or the way Gonzalez was pitching, that told him walking Davis was the best possible strategy under the circumstances, maybe even something Geren couldn’t articulate.
I would certainly give Scioscia the benefit of the doubt. Maybe Torre. Or Jim Leyland.
Geren’s cluelessness down the line makes his decision here look like yet another terrible one. But that’s got more to due with Geren’s cluelessness than the decision itself, I think.
What point are you arguing here?
Either he’s an idiot making dumb moves. OR. He’s clueless how to manage a baseball game with horrible instincts. Either way, his boss needs to evaluate him based on his performance and there’s no way to look at the moves (plural) and say he’s qualified for the job. We can think of a lot of moves where his so-called “hunches” failed miserably, were the wrong move at the time AND could be and was called out on it. How many, if any, worked out? Maybe a couple? And even then they looked and were the wrong move regardless of outcome.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
I'm arguing
…that with a good manager, we assume he knows what he’s doing, even if we don’t. With a bad manager, we figure he doesn’t know what he’s doing, so we criticize. The truth is that on any individual decision, we don’t know the make-up of that decision or how it was arrived at. And Geren isn’t articulate enough to give us a clear answer.
That’s why I’m less inclined to berate him for what appears to be one stupid decision. However, as the decisions pile up, you can see a pattern. Even then though, any individual decision might have some kind of rationale behind it, though of course watching the decision, we’re a lot less forgiving.
Except
in the internet age, any statistical logic to make that move should be clear or “guessable”. If there was a weird stat that said he hit ten home runs in 10 ABs against Gonzales, well, I probably wouldn’t walk him, but I get why a manager would. But Geren seemed pretty clear that he felt the sub .200 guy with 10 or so homers with a massive fail of a day and week already was more of a threat than the next guy and that logic just doesn’t fly, especially in the first inning.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
The most frustrating part is that there doesn't appear to be a future...
for the offense. Buck, Sweeney, Patterson, Barton, et al. are looking like they’re not even everyday players. Brown, Carter, and Cardenas are playing well in the minors but there’s a good chance only 1 of them will be a good everyday player and also a decent chance that none of them will really pan out.
Next year, Giambi, Holliday, Nomar, Chavez, and Crosby will be gone. Though Chavez, Crosby, and Nomar suck and Giambi and Holliday aren’t hitting that well, they are taking up valuable spots on the roster and lots of ABs.
What are they going to do next year?
IF and I really mean IF Carter, Cardenas, and or Brown are ready to play in the bigs, they’ll be rookies and will not be that good. So if they replace guys like Giambi or Holliday, those spots will be even worse than they are this year.
And here’s something no one is talking about. If the A’s get a top 3 pick next year, they’ll need a LOT of money to get one of the top 3 talents. So, they’ll probably be very frugal in the off-season.
I just can’t see this going well. This year we could lose 100 games. Next year, it’s probably a certainty.
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
and 2 100-loss seasons means 2 very expensive top 3 picks.
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
You have to spend money to make money,
and the A’s don’t seem to get that. The Haas family spent money, won, drew fans, and energized the community/fan base.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Well baseball teams are like any other business...
they’re in business to make money. They’re not in it to energize the community or give people something to do on a Saturday afternoon.
BUT, from an outside perspective, it would seem like doing those things would bring them bigger profits. Of course we can’t see their balance sheet.
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
Especially when the Rent at teh Coliseum is only 500K:
Imagine having to pay off that Pittsburgh stadium!!! That franchise will be young for a VERY long time unless they take the Haas approach.
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by Raymond St. Martin (Saint) on May 30, 2009 1:16 PM PDT up reply actions
Where the Haas regime was different from the post-Haas owners
is exemplified by the non-signing of Miguel Tejada. Here was a guy who was expensive, because he was durable and good. Instead, they perceived Crosby as an “Evan Longoria” when there was scant unproven reason, and took the cheap way out.
IMO, the Haas group would have signed =both= Tejada and Chavez.
"Losing feels worse than winning feels good." Vin Scully
by One won lost won on May 30, 2009 11:05 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't see that....
Next year, with Cahill and Anderson having had a year under their belts, and with Mazzaro in the fold, you’ve got a pretty decent rotation: Cahill, Anderson, Mazzaro, Braden, Outman if this isn’t a fluke.
…in other words, a starting staff akin to the Giants thus far in 2009. And the Giants, despite sucking at the plate almost as badly as the A’s, are a .500 team.
So you're saying that Anderson and Cahill will be Cy Young candidates...
Like Lincecum (sp?) and Cain? I don’t think so.
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
no?
I’d def say there’s a chance they will be. Or are they already past their prime?
by chipper1001 on May 30, 2009 10:34 AM PDT up reply actions
But i'm talking next year. My point was that we could lose 100 games this year
and next year. I do think that Cahill and Anderson have Cy Young talent. But, it won’t get them to the upper crust of pitchers for a couple years.
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
With two really high picks
that have the potential to be the kind of talent we need and move through the system fast, that’s not too bad. 2011 gives us a great starting point with 2012-2016 and possibly more creating a pretty good run.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
Yes... my point wasn't to say that the organization is in a bad spot right now...
but I’m saying that this year and next will suck real bad.
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
Probably Though I was kind of expecting that.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
It's possible
I mean, no one on the A’s staff is as good as Lincecum, and Cain is on fire right now. But maybe I am saying that 1-5, that staff would hold its own pretty well.
I agree that they could hold their own eventually...
but it seems like it would be in 2011 or 2012 more than 2009 and 2010.
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
You really think...
Cahill and Anderson will be even close as talented as Lincecum or even Cain? I wouldn’t even put them in the same breath as Lincecum and really even Cain. I hate saying this too.
what i would give to be up 2-0 to the jankees in the first round of the playoffs....
If you had a lineup of 9 Jack Custs who hit(Cust career average) .239 AVG, .382 OBP, and .475 SLG, then your team would score 6.12 runs per game-totalling to 991runs a season.The 08 rangers lead the majors in runs score with 901.
SLIDE DAMMIT!!!!!
Interleague Play: Celebrating Thirteen Seasons of Suck
by GreenNGoldSooner on May 30, 2009 11:13 AM PDT up reply actions
lol - love the photo caption
You know, I had competely forgotten that yesterday was a double header. I watched the first game and saw the same lackluster, half-dead play and then cruised around AN. Was reminded there was a second game coming up and honest to god, I had to actually stop and consider if it was worth my time to watch it. And I’m the type who’ll watch a 15-0 blowout to the last pitch. That’s the level of suckitude to this year’s club – worse than last year’s crappy team, if that’s possible. Just awful.
by coffee roaster on May 30, 2009 12:07 PM PDT reply actions
Dear Cabrera,
Please hold another players-only meeting with the topic, how to get Geren ejected in the first inning of every game.
Better yet
Find 16 other players on the 25 man roster to refuse the play until Geren is fired.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
All I can say is
I’ll be laughing at the surprisingly enormous amount of fairweather fans on this site when Carter/Cardenas/Doolittle and crew are up & in their prime, as well as Anderson/Cahill/Mazzaro etc are leading the rotation. I can’t believe how everyone flips out on the GM because of a couple years of losing. I’m even more shocked that they would criticize him for NOT rushing guys up and having them struggle at the big league level. That’s amazing to me.
Anyway, I’m looking forward to:
C: Zuke/Donaldson
1B: Doolittle/Barton
2B: Weeks
SS: Coleman
3B: Cardenas
LF: Cunningham/Buck
CF: Brown/Cunningham
RF: Cust
DH: Carter
SP: Anderson
SP: Cahill
SP: Mazzaro
SP: Simmons
SP: Outman/Gio/Watermelons/Eveland/etc
SU: Andrew Bailey/Hen-Rod/Demel/Thomas/Carignan/etc
CL: Joey Devine/any of the above
And that’s without including any possible 2009 draftees or future free agents. It shocks me that someone as impatient as myself is able to wait for the bright future that I know we have. I think that in all this losing people are forgetting that we’ve got a pretty good core group of guys who will produce for us in a year or two. I, personally, can’t wait to see the great things these teams can do.
Damn, this post wasnt supposed to go on so long. Oh well.
A’s in 2010!!!!!!!!
Never, Never, NEVER give up
Bleh
I like the pitchers coming up but pitching was never our weakness since CUrt Young is known to work magic. But I intend to buy a gun to shoot myself if your batting lineup is what will happen going into next year. There is not a single player in the lineup that I foresee hitting 20 HRs, other than Cust.
by batterbatter on May 30, 2009 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions
Cunningham, Carter, Doolittle, Brown
All have 20-homer upside.
Perhaps I should’ve said 2011, but my point still stands. I cant wait to see all those kids in their prime proving the naysayers wrong.
Never, Never, NEVER give up
It would be quite a reversal
If all these players fulfilled their upsides. Over the previous ten years, Kurt Suzuki is the ONLY position player to come up in the system and stay with the big club who fulfilled his potential.
And that potential is good defense and a .740 OPS
so let’s not get too carried away about it.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
You are incorrectly assuming what the naysayers are saying, hero66
We’re saying that the team plays with little life, energy, or fundamental execution, that it is led by someone who shows little tactical intelligence and does not appear to demand much in the way of intensity, hustle, or execution, and that the current team does not even consist of many pieces who will be here if the team is any good in 2011.
What about that is untrue if Oakland is good in 2011?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I hope they stink just to prove hero66 wrong ;-)
These ain't your father's A's.
by ohtobe21likehuston on May 30, 2009 3:51 PM PDT up reply actions
I just saw a fanshot post" Buck on the DL
Jeff Gray back to Sac, and Cunningham & Petit back up to the big club.
I mean, really, wtf else can go wrong with this club and injuries. It’s comic and tragic wrapped up in one pathetic, cruel joke….. :(
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
That's funny.
The organization doesn’t like him for some reason so I wouldn’t count on that happening. He played well and then got sent back down already.
These ain't your father's A's.
by ohtobe21likehuston on May 30, 2009 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions
I think the organization likes Cunningham, actually
He’s just still very young and has holes in his swing (i.e., not enough contact), so I think the time in AAA makes sense.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I posted something about the strained oblique
after game 1. What else can go wrong? It’s been this way for several years so that is another point of blame that should go towards the organization. It’s crazy to lead (or be at the upper end) in DL visits and say it’s unlucky.
This is a time to look at the current plan and throw it in the trash. I do believe that they tried different forms of conditioning this year but a lot of the same people are running the show. How can we expect different results?
These ain't your father's A's.
by ohtobe21likehuston on May 30, 2009 4:02 PM PDT up reply actions
British study shows that stretching before a game
actually decreases performance.
"Losing feels worse than winning feels good." Vin Scully
by One won lost won on May 30, 2009 11:08 PM PDT up reply actions
In darts and lawn bowling, anyway
Jolly good!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Too lazy for a link
but I did send my brother up in Portland the link, and it convinced him to have the girls’ volleyball team he coached not stretch prior to their championship game. Though my brother’s team were rated as underdogs, they won!!
…measurable performance increase by NOT stretching…
"Losing feels worse than winning feels good." Vin Scully
by One won lost won on May 31, 2009 9:08 PM PDT up reply actions
That lineup aside from cust/carter is virtually powerless
We’re still gonna need another bat.
" I may not know how to tango, but I sure as hell can man dance!" -Nate Robles
by DaSwinginA's on May 30, 2009 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions
This weekend
Call me crazy but if we get swept by the Rangers this weekend, I have a feeling that Geren won’t be travelling to Chicago.
Big picture...power outage
I have proposed this theory (while not cutting edge) many times in casual conversations…yet however to put it in writing.
Look at the power stats from the last 4 years respectively….
2008 125 HR…….SLG. of .369
2007 171 HR……..SLG of .407
2006 175 HR……..SLG of .412
2005 155 HR…….SLG of .407
Now if you include Batting Average you have a strong argument that the decline of the A’s hitting coincides with the lack of power. Billy Beane’s philosophy of the walk, walk, 3 run jack only produces wins when effective. Now I know that it’s stating the obvious, but if you look at our power #‘s again this year (last in HR. and BA,) then you know where our season is headed regardless of how successful our pitching staff does.
If you think about the good teams in the league right now they are hitting HR’s and getting on base…simply put yet again, but how many games are you going to win with Crosby, Hanahan, Davis and the other minions…Really the bench is only thin because of the injury riddled castoffs that no one else wanted…Well, because they were injured! Stating the obvious. Sometimes the problem is not as cerebral or deep as one might think!
You know what's more important to me than the terrible HR numbers?
The fact that the A’s are last in the league in doubles. 30-40 HR guys are hard to find and hard to pay for. But walk, walk, double works pretty well too.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
EGon totally disagreed with Geren's first inning blunder...
When asked about the intentional walk he said," That’s baseball. I have to do what the manager says."
I’m sure the players realize what a bum Geren is even more than us.
" I may not know how to tango, but I sure as hell can man dance!" -Nate Robles
What do you expect him to tell a reporter?
“I think it was a good idea.”
“I think it was a bad idea.”
??
If a player is asked about a judgment call, they are going to answer “that’s baseball” 97% of the time. I would not read anything into that, about his thinking about Geren. It’s kind of like “My country, right or wrong.” Personnel in Iraq, how do they answer about the Iraq War? No answer, said in a thousand variations, is the best answer. Not a think to gain by making your opinion stick out.
There is zero, 100% NO UPSIDE in really discussing it. Just get the reporter away, and move on.
"Losing feels worse than winning feels good." Vin Scully
by One won lost won on May 30, 2009 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions
There are a lot of ways to answer that question, OWLW
“I think Bob probably wanted me pitching to a right-handed batter.”
“Hey, no matter who I pitch to I have to get the next guy out and I didn’t.”
“Davis is struggling but he’s still a dangerous hitter.”
“Those are tough decisions – I just wish I had made a better pitch to Teagarden.”
I think Gonzalez’ comment says a lot, personally.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
The other answer would be to own up to the rest of the hits
Edgar could cop to the fact he put the rest of the batters on base, and didn’t get out the batter following the IBB.
That’s the bigger picture here.
I went to the doubleheader
First doubleheader I had ever been to. I have to admit that I liked the feeling of “Well we lost the first game, but we get a new start 30 minutes later.” Unfortunately, that feeling was gone less than 30 minutes after that.
That sucked.
by Henduland in Texas on May 30, 2009 3:01 PM PDT reply actions
Went through that same thing on a Black Friday in KC a couple of years ago
It really was the turning point that season and did it ever turn shitty after that weekend.
These ain't your father's A's.
by ohtobe21likehuston on May 30, 2009 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions
glad I didn't go through what you two did
hope you were anonymously dressed, rather than wearing an A’s cap, etc.
Hey, it could have been worse! You could have also bought three or four $7 beers and dropped the whole shebang before you got back to your seats!
..or, did that also happen?? !!
"Losing feels worse than winning feels good." Vin Scully
by One won lost won on May 30, 2009 11:13 PM PDT up reply actions
I had a Danny Haren jersey on
Luckily, it is Texas so fans are not so rabid. I was laughed at a few times, but not as bad as could be. And as I was at the ballpark for 8 hours, had to have a few beers.
by Henduland in Texas on May 31, 2009 12:56 AM PDT up reply actions
PA announcement
“Anyone admitting to be rooting for the Oakland Athletics, please make your way to concession stand behind centerfield. That way, you won’t have to suffer the visual bombardment of their ineptitude, and management will provide FREE BEER!”
"Losing feels worse than winning feels good." Vin Scully
by One won lost won on Jun 1, 2009 8:45 PM PDT up reply actions
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