Beane and Geren: best friends
by iglew on May 25, 2009 12:37 AM PDT
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PrintBeane's and Geren's friendship gets mentioned a lot on AN. It comes up frequently in game threads and game recap discussion -- especially on days when the A's lose -- but for all the mentions, there's very little real discussion. I think the topic warrants serious thought, and not just the unwarranted assumptions and snide remarks I see in the game threads.
For starters, some background information is in order. Everyone knows that Bob Geren was Billy Beane's "best man", but no one seems to know quite when the wedding was or how it aligned with Geren's career. I'd love to provide all the details, but unfortunately my own information is incomplete. I'll fill in what I can, and if anyone out there knows better, I hope you'll enlighten the rest of us.
History
This article from 2006 says that Geren and Beane were both high school baseball stars at the same time in San Diego. The article also specifies that they weren't friends at the time, though I haven't found another source that specifies exactly when they did become friends.
Geren was a first-round draft pick out of high school in 1979. Beane was selected in the 1980 draft, but he fell to the lower rounds because it was widely assumed he'd choose to attend college. (Stanford was actively recruiting Beane for football, envisioning him as the quarterback who would succeed John Elway when he graduated two years later.) The Mets took a flyer on Beane in the 23rd round and lucked out when Beane decided to skip college and sign after all.
Both Geren and Beane had lackluster careers as players. Geren toiled in the minor leagues for a decade before finally making the show in 1988. Beane, on the other hand, flamed out early, and his final season was 1989. Beane's and Geren's playing careers thus overlapped for only two years, and they didn't play for the same team. (Beane spent time with the Mets, Twins, Tigers, and A's; Geren played for the Yankees and the Padres.)
In 1994, Beane joined the A's as assistant GM under Sandy Alderson and would go on to succeed him as GM in 1988. Geren retired from playing after the 1993 season. In 1995 he got his start as a manager in the Red Sox farm system. Geren was a protegé of Bob Schaefer (whom he would later appoint as bench coach for his first year managing the A's), so when Schaefer left the Red Sox after the 1998 season, Geren was cleaned out with him.
At the start of 2000 Beane needed to hire a manager for his AAA affiliate. Under new ownership the team had relocated from Vancouver to Sacramento renaming itself the River Cats. Geren had a good record in the lower minors for the Red Sox, which presumably made him a plausible candidate. At the same time, their shared history no doubt helped put his name on Billy Beane's radar. Even aside from friends, when selecting players Beane has a history of being particularly attuned to guys from Southern California, and most especially San Diego (or Fullerton).
I wish I had a better sense of exactly how close Beane and Geren were at this time. Following their career paths, I don't see any time they could have been in the same city before 1999. Undoubtedly they were aware of each other and had contact through being in the same business, but it doesn't seem like there was any opportunity for them to become close before that. This is just speculation, but based on the facts I've seen, I'd say the most plausible scenario is that they had some friendly contact prior to this, which helped put Geren to the top of the list for the River Cats job, but then it was only after that hiring, when they were in close proximity and working more closely together that they truly became good friends.
Billy Beane's first marriage was some time in the 1980s. He has a daughter from that marriage who I believe is now in her early 20s. I assume that the wedding where Geren served as best man must have been the one between Billy and his current wife Tara. I can't find any record of when that was, but I have a vague recollection of it being background news some time when I was aware of Beane as the A's GM, in which case it must have been some time after 2000. (If anyone out there remembers when the wedding was, please mention it in the comments.)
Geren managed the River Cats for three seasons, 2000-2002, and had a very good record. Between the latter two years he also managed the Licey Tigres in the Dominican winter league, winning the league championship that year (the same year when Eric Byrnes was the MVP). After that he moved onto the coaching staff in Oakland, rotating through various positions.
Business
One thing that has bothered me a lot in the game threads is the assertion without evidence that Beane's decision to hire Geren in 2007, and more importantly his lack of decision to fire him in 2009, is due primarily or entirely to their friendship. In his "Dear Billy Beane" letter last weekend, Nico called the friendship a "built-in problem" in that if Geren "didn't turn out to be good at his job it would create an awkward situation". Many many others have echoed the idea that the friendship is an obstacle to Geren being fired. Some take that several steps further and insinuate that Beane knows that Geren should be fired but refuses to do it out of personal loyalty to his friend.
One of saner comments on this topic came from ohtobe21likehuston in one of the game threads. He said:
I always tell my friends that I will hire them but they should be ready for me to expect a much stronger effort than I do from other employees because of our friendship.This is exactly right. Anyone who has ever been involved in hiring knows that when you get a friend a job you have to be careful. You have to plan for the possibility that some day you might be involved in your friend losing that job. Business is business and friendship is friendship, so if you want to make sure that one isn't going to ruin the other, you need to talk about it ahead of time and make sure everyone understands. Yes, you want to help out your friend and give him a chance, but at the same time he needs to know that it's his responsibility to prove himself, and he can't expect your friendship to make you back him up when his own work record doesn't. More important, you need to know that if a situation like that does come up, you'll both see it as just business and won't let it ruin the friendship. If you don't have that kind of understanding going in, then you don't hire him in the first place.
This is really pretty basic. So basic that it borders on absurd to assume that any successful business person would somehow neglect to have such a discussion. And yet that's exactly what is implied by Nico's remark about an "awkward situation", not to mention some of the nastier comments.
Does anyone really believe that Beane and Geren didn't consider this when Geren interviewed for the manager's position in fall of 2006? There is little job security in baseball. Even more than in most businesses, if you don't produce, you get sacked. Geren had been managing for six years and playing for 14 years before that. Beane's experience is similar. Both of them have taken part in scores of discussions that go, "nothing personal, but you're not getting the job done, so we're gonna have to let you go," and from both sides of the desk even. They know that's how it goes in baseball.
Of course they are aware of this, and of course they discussed it prior to Geren's hiring. Indeed, they probably discussed it before he was hired for the River Cats, too. Sometimes the right business decision is to give the manager the ax. The possibility always exists that that situation is going to come up for Geren. If Geren is your friend, before you hire him, you make sure that he understands this, so that if you do have to fire him, it doesn't ruin your friendship.
Conclusion
If you want to argue that the team is in a rut, that Geren is part of the problem, and that he therefore needs to be fired, have at it. I would even agree with that argument. (Although I'm not as adamant as many here, and I don't think I have any special insight that Billy Beane lacks, based on what I do know, I would like to see Geren fired and I think it would be good for the team.) If you want to further argue that it's Beane's job as GM to see that Geren needs to be fired, and by failing to actually fire him, Beane is failing at his job, go ahead and make that argument, too.
But unless you're prepared to back it up, don't imply or insinuate that the reason Geren got the job is because he's Billy's "best man" or that the reason Beane hasn't fired Geren yet is he's afraid of losing a friend, because first of all that's probably not true, second you have no way of knowing whether it's true, and third even if it is true, it doesn't matter. If Geren is doing a crappy job as a manager, he's just as crappy whether he's Billy's friend or not. If Beane is failing as a GM because he won't fire Geren, he is failing regardless of whether his reason for not firing has anything to do with the friendship.
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interesting choices
orel/quirk have interviewed before
not sure defrancesco/walker would be considered
bobby valentine is being forced out of his job in japan…too outspoken for beane?
lockard on scout.com mentioned 1b coach steverson:
The guy for the job is Todd Steverson. Steverson is a fantastic coach, a great motivator and he knows these young A’s players perhaps better than anyone, having worked his way up the system with these guys over the past five years. He is very smart, has the statistical knowledge that Beane craves, but he also can light a fire under a player when he needs to. He comes from a batting coach background (he helped coach Albert Pujols in the Cardinals minor league system). Plus, he’s an awesome interview, so at least at the post-game shows will be more interesting
I just listed the ones I knew of.
Two in the system, two leftovers from the last round of interviews, plus Carney’s been mentioned here on AN.
It’s early enough, maybe I’ll try to edit the poll. Is that allowed?
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
Sorry, link is messed up
But it’s from Marquez’s post in the offseason entitled “hating the angels”
by stranahanahan on May 25, 2009 10:31 AM PDT up reply actions
buck showalter
how ’bout lee mazilli too?
Wang’s ERA is the same as the balance in my checkbook - Jennifer
no and no...
Showalter’s a fascist and Mazzilli’s not a quality strategist.
DOUBLE REVISED- The magical goblins that live in the Reverend Billy Lard's shower just told him that actually, nobody's gonna improve this year and everyone will be released by June except for Suzuki and Cust... Sorry, kids...
by Gaijin_Suketto on May 25, 2009 9:01 AM PDT up reply actions
I vote for Bobby Valentine...
…unless Texas loses the division and Wash gets fired… or Chiba makes the playoffs and Valentine doesn’t get fired…
DOUBLE REVISED- The magical goblins that live in the Reverend Billy Lard's shower just told him that actually, nobody's gonna improve this year and everyone will be released by June except for Suzuki and Cust... Sorry, kids...
This is nothing new.
First it was fire Howe. Then it was fire Macha. Now it’s fire Geren. Everyone on here always wants to see the manager go. I’m not sure if it’s just an isolated thing with overreacting A’s fans but all these guys seem to be pretty inept at doing their job. Even if the guy standing on the top steps of the dugout is a complete fool I tend to have the belief that the manager isn’t going to drastically improve a poor teams performance or make a great team awful. There are probably a few unique guys out there who can get a team to perform above their abilities, like maybe a Joe Maddon, but I’m not sure thats provable. As it stands I would make the argument that Beane is the one failing because the team Beane assembled is pretty awful at the moment.
You can blame Geren all you want, but like the other night against Arizona there was one reliever out of about five who didn’t get rocked and give up some runs. Everyone second guesses the manager, but theres nothing he can do in that situation. Arizona is one of the worst offenses in the league, and the bullpen still couldn’t get any outs. It’s so easy to critique managing moves like that after the fact, but he can only play the cards he’s dealt so to speak. Alternatively, in that same game there was also a decision to take out Cust, replace him with Davis, but then replace Davis with Buck. Now to me that is completely stupid. Whether it affected the game or not is up in the air, but it sure reeks of confusion.
Going back to what we know from Moneyball and how Howe was basically just supposed to sit on the top step and gnaw on his bubble gum, I wonder if the same philosophies are still in place. We’ll probably never know for sure, but I wouldn’t be surprised. I was going to say something about how there are three former A’s coaches in first place with their team right now; Francona, Macha, and Washington, but I also just said I don’t think the manager has that much of an influence on a team that is already really good. I guess that just goes to show the illogical nature of another fan critiquing their favorite team’s management.
What about Barry?
"Barry who?" Forst said, and I felt like I was in the middle of a knock-knock joke.
No Macha and Howe were winners. Geren has been a failure up to now.
People who wanted to can Howe and/or Macha confuse me. These guys WON GAMES.
People wanting Geren out have a legit point.
by Yellowhorse on May 25, 2009 10:44 PM PDT up reply actions
This team is nothing like the teams those two guys had.
I’m not sure any of those guys could turn this team around right now.
What about Barry?
"Barry who?" Forst said, and I felt like I was in the middle of a knock-knock joke.
Exactly,
Geren hasn’t had much to work with, and let’s not all forget the ridiculous amount of injuries the team has had for the past few years.
by Streams Of Whiskey on May 26, 2009 4:42 AM PDT up reply actions
Macha & Howe had good teams that won despite them
Geren has a poor team that he helps lose. Geren seems to be worse, but that’s hard to tell given the suckitude of this team sometimes. But Macha & Howe both made a lot of WTF moves that sometimes turned out okay because the talent on the field could compensate for them. Neither would look the least bit impressive with this group.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
This team hasn't had a truly great manager since Billy Martin.
No, I didn’t forget Tony LaRussa.
DOUBLE REVISED- The magical goblins that live in the Reverend Billy Lard's shower just told him that actually, nobody's gonna improve this year and everyone will be released by June except for Suzuki and Cust... Sorry, kids...
by Gaijin_Suketto on May 26, 2009 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions
Macha was terrible.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
Carney Lansford is leading
Uh, the guy is sort of dim. Why is the fact that someone is an ex-uniform wearer seen as somehow significant? That’s the worst choice up there and yet it leads, pretty much rendering this whole exercise useless.
by RLangford on May 25, 2009 9:32 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
no matter what, it was useless
even if some interesting choices would have been included.
Multiple choice means you vote someone, even if you know no one. Hence, Carney leads.
Handed out screwdrivers and told everyone, “Start writing”.
"Losing feels worse than winning feels good." Vin Scully
by One won lost won on May 25, 2009 5:25 PM PDT up reply actions
I agree with part of your analysis but not all, iglew
I agree that Geren was not hired just because he had a personal relationship with the GM; I believe that Beane felt Geren was the right man for the job independent of their friendship. Now that may be because Geren was less independent thinking, more “company man” than Ron Washington would have been, or it may be that Geren possesses qualities that I sure can’t see that Beane saw and liked. I totally back the notion that Geren was hired for being the perceived “best choice,” not out of any “you’re my buddy so I’ll hire you.”
That being said, no matter what conversations were had ahead of time, it is awkward if you have to fire a friend. Both of you can be ready for the possibility and “be ok with it if it happens” ahead of time, yet it is still likely that the action will compromise, if not end, the friendship. Just because you both agree not to feel something ahead of time doesn’t mean the feelings won’t be there when the actual time comes.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I think the concept is "alignment."
It’s important in any organization that there be a consistent philosophical approach to the business at-hand among senior managers. I think Geren got the job over Wash and others because Billy knew they agreed on how the game should be strategized — Billy could be confident that Bob would implement his approaches at the field level. Now, maybe that’s being “a company man” with some of the yes-man pejoratives removed, but the point needs to be made that there’s a good reason to have the organization approaching the game similarly, top-to-bottom.
Moneyball is obviously not the only way to go, but it’s the A’s’ way, and if we’re gonna do it that way, we need to do it that way every time.
The meaning of life is not so much 'found,' as it is 'made.' --Opus
by The Dogfather on May 25, 2009 6:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Don't disagree, but two comments/questions...
1) Wouldn’t pretty much ANY GM and/or owner hire somebody who held pretty much their same philosophy? That’s hardly restricted solely to Billy Beane.
2) If Wash were in the A’s organization for so long, then by these same standards he couldn’t have varied too far from the “company line”.
I could prove God statistically. Take the human body alone - the chances that all the functions of an individual would just happen is a statistical monstrosity.
~George Gallup
Couple thoughts.
1 — My impression is that there was never that real confidence between Beane and Macha.
2 — I think Wash followed orders in Oakland and his job seemed to be focused on teaching defensive skills to infielders. Looking at how the Rangers play would give a better sense of his preferences. They’re pretty free swingers, ain’t they?
The meaning of life is not so much 'found,' as it is 'made.' --Opus
by The Dogfather on May 25, 2009 10:12 PM PDT up reply actions
That's not a new concept for the Rangers since Wash took over.
They’ve always been a softball team.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
Precisely -- he's a good fit ("aligned") there.
The meaning of life is not so much 'found,' as it is 'made.' --Opus
by The Dogfather on May 26, 2009 9:10 AM PDT up reply actions
how well is Carney doing in his current job?
Not that hitting coaches can do a whole lot, but the Giants are at the bottom of the MLB in scoring runs and some of that is because they are dead last in walks. If there’s one thing that a hitting coach should do is successfully preach patience at the plate.
You can preach all you want, but when your top hitters
are Sandoval and Molina your team won’t be taking a lot of walks.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
walks aside
their offense is not that dynamic either………
by Wreckonized on May 25, 2009 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions
Nope. Their infield reminds me of...ours
and their outfield reminds me of…ours.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Time for a change
It is’nt that Geren is a bad mamager, he over manages. The largest mistakes I see is his replacing his big hitters too early, And not mamaging the bullpen correctly. In Billy Martin’s book he emphasized that to win ball games you had to make to other mamager overmanage. I see Geren falling into this trap all too often.
I still would like to see Gene Tenace at the helm, he can teach hitting, the Blue Jays hit well don’t they? A link to our glory days, and he has been on a winner, and knows how to win.
Stomp,em, stomp the piss out of em.Then pound the budweiser after the game. Joe Schultz Seattle Piolts Mgr 1969
good post
This is probably my only real blame with Geren, outside of wins and losses.
Pitchers that don’t go deep into games and poor offense make every manager look dumb so he gets too much blame. But the defensive replacements are silly at best.
+1....
It’s his over-management of late game (too early in my opinion) “defensive” replacements and his misuse of the bullpen that are my main gripes. Plus I don’t like his face (just messin’).
by 33SwisherSweet on May 25, 2009 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions
He does have the bad face...
DOUBLE REVISED- The magical goblins that live in the Reverend Billy Lard's shower just told him that actually, nobody's gonna improve this year and everyone will be released by June except for Suzuki and Cust... Sorry, kids...
by Gaijin_Suketto on May 25, 2009 12:37 PM PDT up reply actions
ART HOWE!
Bring back the “Swinging A’s” – This is a very young team (besides Giambi and Springer) and its time to bring Arty back in. He let the young guys play and have a ton of fun…I really miss the early 90s
It's amazing how little fun and energy is evidenced in the A's dugout
compared to opposing dugouts. This didn’t used to be the case.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Urban has mentioned that the clubhouse is very quiet
compared to other A’s clubhouses in the past. That may just be partly due to the mix of personalities, as well as the fact that they haven’t been playing very well.
I this was one of the non-baseball plusses that Swisher brought to the team.
He almost always had a great time and made people smile.
by LoneStranger on May 26, 2009 9:32 AM PDT up reply actions
a great manager can work wonders with his team
a lousy manager can get in the way of his team doing the best it can do.
I don’t think Geren is either of those. Quite frankly, he had great players in Sacramento during 2000-2002 and when he managed Licey.
I want a genius manager who kicks over the spread table once in a while...
DOUBLE REVISED- The magical goblins that live in the Reverend Billy Lard's shower just told him that actually, nobody's gonna improve this year and everyone will be released by June except for Suzuki and Cust... Sorry, kids...
by Gaijin_Suketto on May 25, 2009 12:38 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Good post iglew
I don’t care about past FIRE so and so rants….Geren is a bad motivator and not a very good strategist and has earned the “Fire Geren!” IMO. Case in point: With a 5-1 lead against the D-backs, at 88 pitches, with a tired bullpen, he pulls Gonzalez in the 5th because he walked a couple. How in the hell are these guys supposed to get the experience of woking out of jams? I thought that was a bad move. The kid was obviously keeping them at bay. You go out, talk to him, and give him a chance to work out of it. We have 7.2 innings pitched by Outman yesterday as the longest outing of the year because Geren pulls pitchers too early and is going to kill our potentially brilliant bullpen by mid-season.
Another bad move was not pinchrunning for Powell yesterday. The guy is dying out there, barely able to walk, and in a close game he leaves him in there, when a perfectly healthy Suzuki could have caught the ninth. Now, he lucked out because the wild pitch, however, he would have been thrown out at the plate easily on the Kennedy hit.
Geren needs to go, this dismal season shows his inability to make good moves. These are just the latest in moves that should have/ should not have been made.
concocting something witty....check back frequently
+1
DOUBLE REVISED- The magical goblins that live in the Reverend Billy Lard's shower just told him that actually, nobody's gonna improve this year and everyone will be released by June except for Suzuki and Cust... Sorry, kids...
by Gaijin_Suketto on May 26, 2009 11:00 AM PDT up reply actions
You had me, then you lost me with the last paragraph...
…in that your position that they’ve worked this out prior to Geren’s hiring is no less speculation than what you’re chastising others for.
Having said that, as far as choice of future managers… Hershiser still intrigues me.
I could prove God statistically. Take the human body alone - the chances that all the functions of an individual would just happen is a statistical monstrosity.
~George Gallup
Fall is here, hear the yell.
Back to school, ring the bell.
Brand new shoes, walking blues,
Climb the fence, books and pens,
I can tell that we’re going to be friends.
Walk with me, Suzy Lee
Through the park and by the tree.
We will rest upon the ground
and look at all the bugs we found.
Then safely walk to school
Without a sound
Well here we are, no one else.
We walked to school all by ourselves
There’s dirt on our uniforms
From chasing all the ants and worms
We clean up and now its time to learn
Numbers, letters, learn to spell
Nouns, and books, and show and tell.
At playtime, we will throw the ball.
Back to class, through the hall,
Teacher marks our height
Against the wall.
And we don’t notice any time pass,
we don’t notice anything.
We sit side by side in every class.
Teacher thinks that I sound funny
But she likes the way you sing.
Tonight I’ll dream while I’m in bed,
When silly thoughts go through my head.
about the bugs and alphabet,
and when I wake tomorrow, I’ll bet
that you and I will walk together again,
cause I can tell that we’re going to be friends.
My first thought...ESPN.com still has free content?
My second… you still read ESPN.com? -grover
Love that song
will crosby spread his legs so far apart at bat that the games will have to be rated nc-17 -- emperor nobody
a-greed.
My first thought...ESPN.com still has free content?
My second… you still read ESPN.com? -grover
by Leopold Bloom on May 26, 2009 1:29 AM PDT up reply actions
White Blood Cells is such a good album.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on May 27, 2009 12:15 PM PDT up reply actions
Old jazz standard, modified.
Just friends
Colleagues no more
Just friends
But not like before
To act like nothing’s changed
Since this was first arranged
Would seem like denying
This team is just dying
Two friends
With the same dream
Strong friends
With one busted team
I don’t think you’re to blame
That’s why it’s such a shame
This has to end
We’re now just friends.
Guy love?
[Turk] You ask me ’bout this thing we share,
[J.D.] And he tenderly replies,
[Turk] It’s guy love
[J.D. and Turk] Between two guys.
[Turk] We’re closer than the average man and wife,
[J.D.] That’s why our matching bracelets say Turk and J.D.
[Turk] You know I’ll stick by for the rest of my life.
[J.D.] You’re the only man who’s ever been inside of me.
[Turk] Whoa, I just took out his appendix.
[J.D.] There’s no need to clarify,
[Turk] Oh no? …
The meaning of life is not so much 'found,' as it is 'made.' --Opus
by The Dogfather on May 25, 2009 10:28 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
The Geren hiring
The trouble is the “Best Man” thing is that it smacks of old-school baseball cronyism at its worst. Whatever the history of their relationship, Geren was Beane’s Best Man, which is usually the sort of wedding duty one gives to your closest male friend.
Everyone who’s read “Moneyball” knows that Beane regards managers with little regard. It just looks bad to hire your best friend as manager. I don’t think it helps Geren either. He might have gotten a big-league managerial job on merit someday, but now he is just Beane’s buddy.
The clubhouse knows it. The media knows it. The fans know it.
When Geren makes questionable decisions, as all managers do, it’s only natural to start wondering if Beane let friendship get in the way of making the smartest choice. That’s what happens when a superior hires a close friend.
One of the ways Beane has distinguished himself is his ability and willingness to cast aside a lot of tired baseball dogma to try to gain an edge. Hiring your buddy isn’t a good example of that.
Fairly or not, I find it hard to take Geren seriously. Geren himself hasn’t helped with his generic, bland behavior and decision-making. We would overlook all of this if the team was successful and/or Geren seemed a shrewd choice. But neither is the case, and Geren looks like the sort of cronyism the team cannot afford, and that the younger, hungrier Beane would never have done.
by bear88 on May 25, 2009 10:33 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
I think bland behavior helped Cox in Atlanta
Look at Bobby Cox’s run in Atlanta, where he made the postseason 10, 12 years in a row. The difference between Cox’s success and Geren’s 74-88-type finishes has been veteran personnel. Wasn’t Smoltz and couple of others there (when not injured) there for 4-5 years at a stretch. Now that Cox does not have the proven veterans, and he’s swapping parts as fast as anyone, he’s also sunk behind other division teams. Atlanta looks very “also ran”.
Why Art Howe was gone, was that he earned a big payday in NY for his Athletics success. He should have taken it. And he could not repeat his A’s success with the Mets.
All that being said, I believe Geren IMO lost the A’s about 2-3 games this year strictly by managing mistakes. Out of 42 games. So he’s worth about 6-9 extra losses? Not certain if he’s worth changing out. Rather than consider the “plus” a manager can bring, I am more fearful of a worse quantity in a manager….one who costs the team games, not so much by episodic events, but just by the (86% versus 100%) effort that 10-20 players may fall back on if they dislike playing for the guy.
"Losing feels worse than winning feels good." Vin Scully
by One won lost won on May 26, 2009 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions
Two things.
1. Bobby Cox has been tossed from more games than any other manager in history. I would not personify his management style as bland, though your point about having veteran talent there may be valid.
2. I have a friend who’s a huge Mets fan. He said it took Howe a month and a half to call a hit and run, which is apparently a big deal the way the Senior Circuit plays the game. Now I’m no numbers guy, but that sounds bad.
"It is a truth universally acknowledged that a zombie in possession of brains must be in want of more brains"--Pride and Prejudice And Zombies
by Leopold Bloom on May 27, 2009 9:33 AM PDT up reply actions
I hate to be the critical copy editor
But I’m pretty sure you have several of the years wrong in ways that make it hard for me to follow the timeline.
Both Geren and Beane had lackluster careers as players. Geren toiled in the minor leagues for a decade before finally making the show in 1988. Beane, on the other hand, flamed out early, and his final season was 1989.
I’m not sure what the fix here is, but 1980-1989 would not be “flaming out early”
In 1994, Beane joined the A’s as assistant GM under Sandy Alderson and would go on to succeed him as GM in 1988.
I’m pretty sure you mean 1998 here.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
I'm sitting in the cubicle adjacent to nevermoor, and I can tell you that he is giggling with delight.
With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery
giggling rocks.
"It is a truth universally acknowledged that a zombie in possession of brains must be in want of more brains"--Pride and Prejudice And Zombies
by Leopold Bloom on May 27, 2009 9:35 AM PDT up reply actions
Another great Geren quote
“We’re still deciding,” he said Tuesday before the second game of a three-game series against the visiting Mariners at Oakland-Alameda County Coliseum. “We’ve got Dana down there, Gio … they’ve been up here.”
they’ve been up here.
dont publicly spill all the beans geren
Fuck you Bob Geren
I wrote this post right before leaving town for three days.
I didn’t think about the fact that I wouldn’t be around to answer all the comments. I gather it’s fallen from the front page by now, but just a couple of points.
To Uncle Leo in particular, and also somewhat to Nico, I suppose it’s true that when I assume Beane’s decisions are not dictated by his friendship I’m speculating just as much as are those who say the opposite. I guess my feeling is that it’s such a basic part of an executive’s job that the onus should be on the presumers who say he’s aberrantly negligent.
It’s the same as I feel when someone reacts to a batter’s slump by saying he must not care enough. Sure, that’s possible, and as fans we’ll never really know, but given professional standards the presumption ought to be that he’s still trying but just not succeeding. If it’s just a matter of what’s possible, there are plenty of other even less likely explanations. Ultimately, it makes no difference. If a guy isn’t batting well, he should be taken out, regardless of whether it’s because he’s injured, stupid, talentless, or possessed by aliens. No matter what the reason, he isn’t getting the job done.
I feel the same about Beane and Geren. If Beane really should be firing Geren, he can be legitimately criticized for not doing so. It doesn’t matter if his reason for not doing so is friendship, misguided belief in Geren’s talent, unwillingness to admit error, general negligence, distraction by soccer, etc.
To nevermoor, thanks for the copyediting. Yes, that second one was supposed to be 1998. As for the first, none of the years were reported wrong. Billy was drafted in 1980 and hit the big leagues in 1984, so his ML career was actually 1984-1989. The fix there is to edit the “flamed out early”, which was a very poor characterization on my part.
To no one in particular, I’m disappointed that no one out there knows the timing of the wedding and the friendship in general any more than I do. I also half regret adding the poll, since it seems most of the focus was on that and not what I intended as my real argument. But I guess I should have expected that.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
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